Bills get nowhere by trading McGahee, Spikes

[Don't Panic]

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070424/SPORTS0103/704240316/tbd/



No question, the McGahee and Spikes situations were complicated. McGahee, a former No. 1 pick the team spent much time and effort on, was coming off a season in which he didn't hit 1,000 yards. Spikes' cap number was burdensome and the question of his repaired Achilles' tendon would always be there.
But both players are rare talents when it's all clicking and stand the chance to resurrect themselves in big ways with their new teams. Such talent isn't easily found or replaced. When the team issues the standard "moving in a new direction" line, that direction is usually down. The issue of McGahee's attitude was way overblown. He played hard, with injuries. He was not in trouble with the law. His biggest fault was being a goofball.

Being a goofball? That's like saying Hitler was a little insensitive. He projects Willis and Bush as our #1 and 2 picks, which should make some happy in here.

[dolphan117]

Ultimately whether or not Wilis was a good trade will depend entirely on what those extra draft picks turn into. Just to early to say at this point IMO.

[Night Train]

" Both players are rare talents when it's all clicking "

Exactly.

And it WASN'T clicking. So the Bills are doing something about it.

[clumping platelets]

" Both players are rare talents when it's all clicking "

Exactly.

And it WASN'T clicking. So the Bills are doing something about it.


Bills made the correct moves

[Don't Panic]

This will obviously prove itself out over the course of the year. I'm just a ltitle surprised to see Leo Roth be so quick to assess when there are so many unknowns in the equation.

[mchurchfie]

We waited for 3 years for Willis to start "clicking.":cynic:

[Earthquake Enyart]

I thought Leo Roth hit the nail on the head. :couch:

[Dr. Lecter]

Didn't Spikes want out?

[Jan Reimers]

I really wish the media would let this stuff go. It's not like we've dismantled a dynasty. When you've missed the playoffs for 7 consecutive seasons, perhaps "moving in a new direction" just makes good sense.

[mikemac2001]

Idk man i liked spikes but he wasnt the same and time to move on, Mcgahee was just a douche i really wish i could have gotten him on madden nation i was gonna call him out saying he was gonna ditch buffalo when he got the chance...i know they wouldnt have shown it but would have liked to get some shots in

[ddaryl]

McGahee was such a talent he made the probowl how many times ?

Spikes will be missed, but his departure was requested by him, and we did get a pretty good DT for him.

[streetkings01]

If McGahee is a rare talent, than so are 75% of the RB's in the NFL!

[OpIv37]

Willis had his shot- even if he lights it up in Baltimore, he wasn't going to do that here.

As far as Spikes, we are absolutely going to regret that trade.

[HHURRICANE]

Willis had his shot- even if he lights it up in Baltimore, he wasn't going to do that here.

As far as Spikes, we are absolutely going to regret that trade.

I guess we are going to disagree on this one.

Getting rid of Spikes, who has been non-existant for 2 seasons, and getting Darwin Walker and a draft pick seems pretty reasonable to me. I think the Bills looked at Takeo's upside and didn't see 5 miilion for it. Hard to miss a non-contributor.

McGahee, to me, is the mistake. You have a guy that was a starter with nobody on the current roster. Michael Turner is a big question mark as far as I'm concerned and a rookie in this year's draft could be LT or Ron Dayne. You don't know.

I like getting rid of players that should be better but than I can name another dozen players that we should move. You can't move everyone and Willis was the one we should have kept for the time being.

[OpIv37]

I guess we are going to disagree on this one.

Getting rid of Spikes, who has been non-existant for 2 seasons, and getting Darwin Walker and a draft pick seems pretty reasonable to me. I think the Bills looked at Takeo's upside and didn't see 5 miilion for it. Hard to miss a non-contributor.

McGahee, to me, is the mistake. You have a guy that was a starter with nobody on the current roster. Michael Turner is a big question mark as far as I'm concerned and a rookie in this year's draft could be LT or Ron Dayne. You don't know.

I like getting rid of players that should be better but than I can name another dozen players that we should move. You can't move everyone and Willis was the one we should have kept for the time being.


The problem with the Spikes trade is that we already lost an LB in Fletch and now we lost Spikes and we haven't GAINED any LB's. So, if the season started today, it would be Haggan-Crowell-Ellison and that's just scary. Even if we find a starting LB in the draft, we're one injury away from someone like Haggan, DiGiorgio or Coy Wire STARTING at LB. That's scary.

As far as Darwin Walker, he's not a run stuffer so I don't know how much he'll actually help the DL>

When it comes to McGahee, his attitude was ALL wrong. Look what he did against the Jets when he was motivated because of Vilma. But the guy doesn't show up every week and no one in Buffalo was going to make him. McGahee would NEVER reach his potential in Buffalo and we were spinning our wheels with him. He plays for himself- he doesn't play to win and he doesn't play for the team. So **** him- we can get 900 yards out of A train if we have to.

[Buffalo Sabres]

Look what he did against the Jets when he was motivated because of Vilma. then he should have been motivated to play ray lewis and ed reed but no he had 81 yards in 2 games combined against them, **** him!

[TacklingDummy]

I guess the O-line excuse can only be used for JP and not Willis. :rolleyes:

[HHURRICANE]

The problem with the Spikes trade is that we already lost an LB in Fletch and now we lost Spikes and we haven't GAINED any LB's. So, if the season started today, it would be Haggan-Crowell-Ellison and that's just scary. Even if we find a starting LB in the draft, we're one injury away from someone like Haggan, DiGiorgio or Coy Wire STARTING at LB. That's scary.

As far as Darwin Walker, he's not a run stuffer so I don't know how much he'll actually help the DL>

When it comes to McGahee, his attitude was ALL wrong. Look what he did against the Jets when he was motivated because of Vilma. But the guy doesn't show up every week and no one in Buffalo was going to make him. McGahee would NEVER reach his potential in Buffalo and we were spinning our wheels with him. He plays for himself- he doesn't play to win and he doesn't play for the team. So **** him- we can get 900 yards out of A train if we have to.


Spikes had 70 tackles last year, 87 over 2 years. Those numbers can be replaced easily. Fletcher, not Spikes, leaves a pretty big hole. Heck, I wrote the post on how this draft had better be LB, LB and LB.

If we had kept McGahee we could have potentially drafted 2 starting LBs. Matter-of-fact we might have been able to get Willis and Poz or Willis and Beason together. Now we are forced to address RB when we had one under contract.

[HHURRICANE]

I guess the O-line excuse can only be used for JP and not Willis.

I believe our O-line is just as much to blame for Willis as Losman. However, after the bye Losman got better and Willis didn't.

I guess Losman's mistakes cost us games but McGahee's doesn't.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

I feel good about the move with McGahee, especially with his attitude the second he was traded. It seemed that the Bills front office couldn't wait to rid themselves of him and that tells me something. I say good riddance.

As far as Spikes, I am getting better with this decision. At first I didn't like the move because of the hole it leaves at the LB position. However, Spikes wasn't the same after his injury and even before the injury I didn't think he was the great warrior a lot of Bills fans feel. I thought he disappeared way to much. He would have games where he would dominate and then 5 games where he was invisible. I loved the guy because of his heart and passion, but as far as on the field production I didn't think he was worth nearly what he would have been paid this season.

They do have holes at each position and they will need to address both positions, so that can be the only thing you can really say.

[TacklingDummy]

If we had kept McGahee we could have potentially drafted 2 starting LBs. Matter-of-fact we might have been able to get Willis and Poz or Willis and Beason together. Now we are forced to address RB when we had one under contract.

The Bills let Clements walk they could have done the samething with Willis.

[OpIv37]

Spikes had 70 tackles last year, 87 over 2 years. Those numbers can be replaced easily. Fletcher, not Spikes, leaves a pretty big hole. Heck, I wrote the post on how this draft had better be LB, LB and LB.

If we had kept McGahee we could have potentially drafted 2 starting LBs. Matter-of-fact we might have been able to get Willis and Poz or Willis and Beason together. Now we are forced to address RB when we had one under contract.

They CAN be but as of now, they haven't been, to say nothing of Fletcher.

I see what you mean about McGahee- we did create a hole where there wasn't one before. But on the other hand, we were never going to get good production out of McGahee. I guess I'm not as concerned about it because I think there are more options at RB than there are at LB at this point in the off-season.

[TacklingDummy]

I see what you mean about McGahee- we did create a hole where there wasn't one before. But on the other hand, we were never going to get good production out of McGahee.

I thought players produced in contract years? Especially "me" players? Willis had alot more to lose next year than the Bills did.

[OpIv37]

I thought players produced in contract years? Especially "me" players? Willis had alot more to lose next year than the Bills did.

Well, Clements is a "me" player and his worst year was 2005, which was his contract year before he got slapped with the franchise tag. It makes sense that players would work harder in their contract years, but McGahee's not exactly a thinking man.

[streetkings01]

I guess the O-line excuse can only be used for JP and not Willis. :rolleyes:Travis Henry made the Pro Bowl running behind an oline that was just as bad if not worse than last years...so he gets no pass from me!

[HHURRICANE]

The Bills let Clements walk they could have done the samething with Willis.

Hey, I agree with you. We held all the cards. I think Marv and Co. let their emotions cloud their vision on this one. Drew and McGahee are not to fun to deal with so they took the easy way out.

Had the Jets had Willis last year I guarantee that they would have won our division.

[Don't Panic]

We got 3 picks for Mc*******... that is a coup as far as I'm concerned. I don't care what he does in the future - his time in Buffalo had come to its end and the fact that we got something for him is a gift.

[ublinkwescore]

I believe our O-line is just as much to blame for Willis as Losman. However, after the bye Losman got better and Willis didn't.

I guess Losman's mistakes cost us games but McGahee's doesn't.

or his ignorance of the playbook.

plus it's a lot harder to make mistakes as a running back - essentially your job is to basically grab the ball from the QB, and run as hard as you possibly can through the first hole you see, and try to stay on your feet as long as you can while making downfield progress - it's really not rocket science - I guess Willis was too busy making bastards to look at his playbook to know where the holes were supposed to be opened by the Oline (and sometimes how to pick up a blitzing LB).

[ublinkwescore]

Hey, I agree with you. We held all the cards. I think Marv and Co. let their emotions cloud their vision on this one. Drew and McGahee are not to fun to deal with so they took the easy way out.

Had the Jets had Willis last year I guarantee that they would have won our division.

I think they did the right thing with McGahee and his @$$ of an agent - let Ozzie deal with them now - he'll soon be wanting to hire Ray to stab one or both of them.

[justasportsfan]

As far as Spikes, we are absolutely going to regret that trade.
You'll never get it will you? I guess FORCING to keep Spikes against his wishes is a better option than trading him now. :shakeno:

It's not like Spikes is in peak form as Briggs who BTW is causing the bears headaches and vise versa because they are forcing him to stay.

[Neggie Nancy]

I like the McGahee trade, and I hate the Spikes trade.

If Spikes is even close to form this year (and I think he will be) we had a solid strong side backer.. If he wasn't , then cut him.

Id rather take the chance he'd be solid again and lose out on Darwin Walker if I'm wrong.

as for Willis, he's one of the most overhyped players in the entire league.

[OpIv37]

You'll never get it will you? I guess FORCING to keep Spikes against his wishes is a better option than trading him now. :shakeno:

It's not like Spikes is in peak form as Briggs who BTW is causing the bears headaches and vise versa because they are forcing him to stay.

If we get Briggs, I PROMISE you I'll STFU about the Spikes trade. In fact, if we had Briggs the Spikes trade would make a lot of sense and I never would have complained about it in the first place.

But right now, we don't have Briggs. We have DiGiorgio, Wire, Stamer and Haggan. :puke:

[justasportsfan]

If Spikes is even close to form this year (and I think he will be) we had a solid strong side backer.. If he wasn't , then cut him.

Id rather take the chance he'd be solid again and lose out on Darwin Walker if I'm wrong.

as for Willis, he's one of the most overhyped players in the entire league.read my post. Even if he returns to form he doesn't want to be here.

[justasportsfan]

If we get Briggs, I PROMISE you I'll STFU about the Spikes trade. In fact, if we had Briggs the Spikes trade would make a lot of sense and I never would have complained about it in the first place.

But right now, we don't have Briggs. We have DiGiorgio, Wire, Stamer and Haggan. :puke:

I don't have a problem with you b!tching about our current LB core. It's your logic of crying about releasing a questionable player who didn't want to be here and thinking that forcing him to stay is the way to go.

You're *****ing about the hole now created by a questionable player and then you'll b!tch about it again next year when he leaves next year (if we forced him to stay).

Let's not forget the possible locker room problems he could cause IF WE FORCED HIM TO STAY.

[OpIv37]

I don't have a problem with you b!tching about our current LB core. It's your logic of crying about releasing a questionable player who didn't want to be here and thinking that forcing him to stay is the way to go.

You're *****ing about the hole now created by a questionable player and then you'll b!tch about it again next year when he leaves next year (if we forced him to stay).

Let's not forget the possible locker room problems he could cause IF WE FORCED HIM TO STAY.

well we had a questionable player and now we have no player. We're better off with a questionable player than with no one.

And questionable or not, he's still better than the four nobody's we have behind him.

As far as not wanting to be here: waaaah. He chose to be here and he's getting $5 million to stay. STFU and play for your next contract.

[mchurchfie]

and even before the injury I didn't think he was the great warrior a lot of Bills fans feel. I thought he disappeared way to much. He would have games where he would dominate and then 5 games where he was invisible. I loved the guy because of his heart and passion, but as far as on the field production I didn't think he was worth nearly what he would have been paid this season.

.
:bf1::bf1:

[mchurchfie]

he'll soon be wanting to hire Ray to stab one or both of them.
Maybe he can get one of those big fur coats like Ray and they can go out pimping together trying to pick up some nappyheaded hos.:hump:

[TigerJ]

If McGahee is a rare talent, than so are 75% of the RB's in the NFL!

The problem is that McGahee played at 75% of his ability. Had Buffalo not traded him, then they would have to find the answer to the question of how to motivate him to add the missing 25% to is effort. I don't have the answer. Unless the Bills could be confident they had the answer, they are right to have traded him.

Spikes did request a trade. I don't know how he put it to the Bills. Maybe had he not been traded he would have been the good soldier and played his best next season, and being more recovered from the ahilles injury would have been a beast on defense, but maybe he'd have been locker room poison too.

In the long run I think both trades were in the Bills' best interest, even if it could have a negative impact on the field next season, and by no means is that a given.

[OpIv37]

In the long run I think both trades were in the Bills' best interest, even if it could have a negative impact on the field next season, and by no means is that a given.

how could anything that has a negative effect on the field for the Bills be in their best interest? That's counterintuitive.

We might be able to skate by at RB but we're in trouble at LB.

[mchurchfie]

We might be able to skate by at RB but we're in trouble at LB.
We've been in trouble at LB for a few years now.

[justasportsfan]

As far as not wanting to be here: waaaah. He chose to be here and he's getting $5 million to stay. STFU and play for your next contract.

that's an awful lot of money to risk on especially if he waaah's in the locker room all year round . Let's not forget that the player you want (briggs) s doing the same Waah over at chicago.

As far as being better than any of the 4 players behind him , I'll leave that up to the doctors and coaches. I'm almost sure they weighed their options.

Moving Spikes was a good move. Time to find his replacement. Like I said, improving from within might already be there. I don't know that but that's how teams build a solid core without breaking the bank like the redskins. MArv already stated in the luncheon they need help at hat position. You're just to whiny to even wait just like before Dockery was here.

[Jan Reimers]

We've been in trouble at LB for a few years now.
Exactly. And the way to get out of it is to jetison the old and infirm - Fletcher and Spikes - and bring in some young talent. It is time to move on.

I really find it hard to believe that so many posters think we would have been better off to stick with a couple of guys in serious decline.

[OpIv37]

that's an awful lot of money to risk on especially if he waaah's in the locker room all year round . Let's not forget that the player you want (briggs) s doing the same Waah over at chicago.

As far as being better than any of the 4 players behind him , I'll leave that up to the doctors and coaches. I'm almost sure they weighed their options.

Moving Spikes was a good move. Time to find his replacement. Like I said, improving from within might already be there. I don't know that but that's how teams build a solid core without breaking the bank like the redskins. MArv already stated in the luncheon they need help at hat position. You're just to whiny to even wait just like before Dockery was here.

The time to find his replacement was before we cut him.

I'm not entirely sure that it was a bad move to get rid of him, but the lack of a replacement is disconcerting to say the least. The facts are that we need to improve because we were 7-9 last year and the D pretty much sucked. And while Spikes may have been one of several weak links in that D, I fail to see how anyone else on our roster makes us stronger.

I guess my whole problem with it is that between losing Fletcher (involuntarily) and losing Spikes (voluntarily, for the most part), we are in a situation where we have to find a starting LB in the draft or else we're screwed. And the chances of improving at the LB spot are slim to none at this point (Briggs being the key, but like I said in the other thread, that's unlikely). I don't appreciate the FO getting us into that precarious of a position.

[feelthepain]

" Both players are rare talents when it's all clicking "

Exactly.

And it WASN'T clicking. So the Bills are doing something about it.

I guess improving the depth was out of the question, cause the Bills wouldn't save as much money. It wasn't the 4 players the Bills lost that was the problem, it was a weak Oline and Dline. You could have made big imporvements just by imporving those two areas. Adding another WR to compliment Evans wouldn't hurt. As it stands now you have to Upgrade 2 LB position, RB position, CB position and still upgrade the Dline and I would still draft an Olinemen or two for depth and maybe to battle for a starting job. Not to mention the TE position, will Everett be worthy of his drafting position? Tha's a lot more upgrading then you needed to do at the end of the 2006 season.

[Jan Reimers]

Spikes was a warrior. Fletcher was a good MLB. The operative word here is WAS.

[justasportsfan]

The time to find his replacement was before we cut him. easier said than done when you're an armchair GM. Besides, that's the redskins way who you keep insisting is doing it wrong. It takes time to find a replacement. You don't go impulsively getting a replacement as soon as a player leaves.


I'm not entirely sure that it was a bad move to get rid of him, but the lack of a replacement is disconcerting to say the least. The facts are that we need to improve because we were 7-9 last year and the D pretty much sucked. And while Spikes may have been one of several weak links in that D, I fail to see how anyone else on our roster makes us stronger.

I guess my whole problem with it is that between losing Fletcher (involuntarily) and losing Spikes (voluntarily, for the most part), we are in a situation where we have to find a starting LB in the draft or else we're screwed. And the chances of improving at the LB spot are slim to none at this point (Briggs being the key, but like I said in the other thread, that's unlikely). I don't appreciate the FO getting us into that precarious of a position.

you fail to see how anyone on the team makes us stronger at the lb yet you can see how anyone from the 2nd or 3rd draft can make us better at the rb position? Don't bring back that rb is an easier position because you yourself admit THE DRAFT is a crapshoot. For every successful draft pick there's also a bust.

Marv stated you can upgrade from within. That's how Clements, Evans, became no. 1 on this team. FROM WITHIN. I'm not saying Spikes replacement is already on the team but I will leave that up to the coaches and FO to decide. You know , the coaches and FO that you say has this team headed the right direction?

Don't forget, when you say "waaaah , you're under contract" the same can be said about Willis then? Should we have forced him to stay in his last year? "but He lacked the heart" , maybe Spikes would've been the same way if we FORCED him to stay. I'm not willing to risk 5 million to find out. If he wanted to stay that would be a different thing.

Both their contributions last year can be replaced. Both are questionable. Both didn't want to be in buffalo. Goodbye! No if's and buts about that.

[HHURRICANE]

Clements: Not worth 80 million and have Yobouty waiting in the wings = Good decision!!!

Spikes: Serious injury that, as of yet, looks unlikely that he'll ever be the same player. Pick up a starting caliber DT, that we need for rotation, who is an upgrade over Tim Anderson = Good decision!!!

Fletcher: Tons of tackles!!! However, out of position alot and too small to make the key stops when we needed them. Why do you think Jerry Grey always had us blitzing?! = Okay decision.

McGahee: Running back that averages over a thousand yards a year. Remember he had 990 yards in 14 games. Bigtime butthole and not very smart but probably would have run pretty hard in a contract year behind the best line he's ever had. Created a hole that we could have addressed next year = Bad decision.

[OpIv37]

Both their contributions last year can be replaced. Both are questionable. Both didn't want to be in buffalo. Goodbye! No if's and buts about that.

CAN be replaced but HAVEN'T been.

Yes, RB's in the draft are a crapshoot, but less of a crapshoot than LB's and less of a crapshoot than keeping McGahee.

When it comes to McGahee, the risk involved in letting him go is equal to or less than the risk of keeping him.

When it comes to Spikes, the risk in letting him go is worse than the risk in keeping him.

I may have been premature on my "right direction" comment. The D has CLEARLY taken a step back this off-season, and I'm not big on the defensive system to start with. For every hole that gets filled, 2-3 new ones are created. I'm starting to worry that by the time all the current holes get filled, we'll have new holes due to FA, age, etc. The young core of this team isn't going to be young and under contract forever, and that's the whole flaw in the "it takes time" argument. In the age of FA, the clock is always ticking.

[OpIv37]

Clements: Not worth 80 million and have Yobouty waiting in the wings = Good decision!!!

Spikes: Serious injury that, as of yet, looks unlikely that he'll ever be the same player. Pick up a starting caliber DT, that we need for rotation, who is an upgrade over Tim Anderson = Good decision!!!

Fletcher: Tons of tackles!!! However, out of position alot and too small to make the key stops when we needed them. Why do you think Jerry Grey always had us blitzing?! = Okay decision.

McGahee: Running back that averages over a thousand yards a year. Remember he had 990 yards in 14 games. Bigtime butthole and not very smart but probably would have run pretty hard in a contract year behind the best line he's ever had. Created a hole that we could have addressed next year = Bad decision.

I agree with not paying Clements $80 million, but the fact remains that on opening day of 2007, Nate Clements will be far superior to Ashton Youboty (barring injury of course)

As far as Spikes and Fletcher, if they're not performing, fine, but find someone who is an IMPROVEMENT. You could argue that Crowell and Ellison are better (or at least have more "upside") at this point, but who's the 3rd LB? You don't get better by just cutting players who aren't good enough- you need to add someone who's better and so far we've failed.

Hopefully Darwin Walker will allow us to cut Tim Anderson, but pass rushing means very little when teams can run all over us.

The D has taken a step backwards- it's impossible to argue otherwise.
DL- gained walker, lost no one- mild improvement
LB- lost Spikes and Fletcher, gained no one- clearly worse.
CB- lost Clements, gained no one - clearly worse (at least initially- Youboty may turn into a great CB but again, he won't be one in week 1 of 2007).
S- no changes- push.

[jpdex12]

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070424/SPORTS0103/704240316/tbd/




Being a goofball? That's like saying Hitler was a little insensitive. He projects Willis and Bush as our #1 and 2 picks, which should make some happy in here.

Screw these media guys! They just start crap by writing off the cuff slanders to gain interest by any readers that get a rise out of their article. Most of the columnists that are assessing OBD are saying the same things. Honestly, how are they basing their assessments? Willis put up one decent year out of 3 and he didn't want to be in Buffalo...do you think that he would have had a good 2007? Maybe because it was a contract year and he knew if he put up good numbers he could get a good contract next year from a DIFFERENT team because he did not want to be in Buffalo, but Buffalo would have lost him to FA so we had to deal him this year. That is something that the media fails to consider or else it might actually make sense as to why OBD got rid of him. As far as Spikes, he WAS a warrior. Approaching the wrong side of 30 and the injury make his salary one that is undesirable and he was not ready to take a pay cut that is why he requested to be traded along with his doubt on the vision of the Bill's future. Something else that the media doesn't consider. If they were the GM and had to make these decisions in order to keep their job they would have done the same as Marv.
So in conclusion, you can save the articles that these idiots write and use them to whipe your ass after you get done taking a healthy dump because that is all that they are good for. On a rare occassion they write a piece that is worthy of salvaging from the despare of ass whiping! Take that to the bank!

[justasportsfan]

CAN be replaced but HAVEN'T been. . Maybe, maybe not.


Yes, RB's in the draft are a crapshoot, but less of a crapshoot than LB's and less of a crapshoot than keeping McGahee.

When it comes to McGahee, the risk involved in letting him go is equal to or less than the risk of keeping him..
regardless, it's faulty logic n your part.



When it comes to Spikes, the risk in letting him go is worse than the risk in keeping him. . that's your opinion. Keeping a questionable player who doesn't want to be here is better gone IMO. The sooner the better. Just Like Moulds. would've loved to keep him but he wanted out. He had no injuries but his last year here was questionable too.



I may have been premature on my "right direction" comment. The D has CLEARLY taken a step back this off-season, and I'm not big on the defensive system to start with. For every hole that gets filled, 2-3 new ones are created. .

So now you swing different directions based on whether you agree with those moves . When the team wins inspite of the moves you don't agree with, you'll start saying "it was premature on my part again" and then when they don't make the moves you want next offseason you be back to "it was premature on my part again" . You must be a Kerry fan. You said the same thing about Peerless and this coaching staff. You doubted Peerless and the staff prior to the season started and then went to "it was premature" . Back and forth.




For every hole that gets filled, 2-3 new ones are created. .thats ok. No one accussed you of knowing what it takes to rebuild.

[justasportsfan]

- you need to add someone who's better and so far we've failed.
. I want facts . Please show me stats.



-

The D has taken a step backwards- it's impossible to argue otherwise. .Without any facts , you can't say it's impossible because players playing on their second year in the same system can make a team better . So until you have facts (which you don't ) show me where it's impossible.



-

DL- gained walker, lost no one- mild improvement
LB- lost Spikes and Fletcher, gained no one- clearly worse.
CB- lost Clements, gained no one - clearly worse (at least initially- Youboty may turn into a great CB but again, he won't be one in week 1 of 2007).
S- no changes- push.

How many times do I have to repeat to you that replacing Milloy and Wire with Whitner and Simpson made us better.

While I'm not saying ellison or Youboty are gonna replace Spikes and Clements, it doesn't mean they can't either.

So until we see results on the field, we neither got better nor worse.

[OpIv37]

Maybe, maybe not.


regardless, it's faulty logic n your part.

that's your opinion. Keeping a questionable player who doesn't want to be here is better gone IMO. The sooner the better. Just Like Moulds. would've loved to keep him but he wanted out. He had no injuries but his last year here was questionable too.


So know you swing different directions based on whether you agree with those moves. When the team wins inspite of the moves you don't agree with. you'll start saying "it was premature on my part again" and then when they don't make the moves you want next offseason you be back to "it was premature on my part again" . You must be a Kerry fan. You said the same thing about Peerless and this coaching staff. You doubted Peerless and the staff prior to the season started and then went to "it was premature" . Back and forth.


thats ok. No one accussed you of knowing what it takes to rebuild.

First of all, the faulty logic is you assuming that all positions are the same and trying to treat all positions the same. But we've been over this and you simply don't understand it so there is no point in re-hashing that discussion.

Second, I have never changed my views on Price- signing him was questionable and I STILL say he's questionable. He's a #3 at best and he's making #2 money despite the fact opposing defenses do NOT see him as a threat. He's not even good enough to be a decoy at this point. I have never waivered in my doubts about Peerless Price.

Third, I still have some doubts about Marv and I definitely have my doubts about Jauron. Jauron proved to be better at getting the team prepared for games than I thought, but his in-game decision-making is mind-boggling and amateur a lot of the time. Marv has made some good moves and some stupid ones (see Peerless Price). Overall, they did better than I expected to in some areas last year and I do like the youth, but I think I may have been premature when I said I liked the direction the team was headed because now they're just creating holes left and right.

Fourth, who made you the authority on how to rebuild? Even your user name says you're just a fan.

And finally, you must be a Carter fan- afraid to make a decision. I'm not afraid to call it as I see it- if I'm wrong later on, good- if I'm right, that's actually a bad thing because it means the team sucks. But somewhere you developed this mentality that a coach/GM either has to win a SB or get fired before judgement can be passed. We've had a full year of football and one and half off-seasons of Levy, Jauron and co.... certainly it's not enough to determine how history will remember them but it's more than enough to be worthy of comment.


I said to Miyagi yesterday that this board would be awfully boring if every thread was "The Bills signed Joe Schmoe- Great Job Marv" followed by 19 pages of other posters going "I agree- great job". Well it would be equally as boring if every thread was "The Bills Signed Joe Schmoe- let's wait 3 years to see how he does before we pass judgement" followed by 19 pages of "i'll give my opinion on this when his contract ends".

[OpIv37]

I want facts . Please show me stats.


Without any facts , you can't say it's impossible because players playing on their second year in the same system can make a team better . So until you have facts (which you don't ) show me where it's impossible.




How many times do I have to repeat to you that replacing Milloy and Wire with Whitner and Simpson made us better.

While I'm not saying ellison or Youboty are gonna replace Spikes and Clements, it doesn't mean they can't either.

So until we see results on the field, we neither got better nor worse.

show me stats where a team lost 3 Starters in ONE offseason without ADDING anyone and got better just because of one year of experience. And you accuse me of faulty logic....

Oh, and once again- we HAD Whitner and Simpson before we cut Vincent and we kept Wire for insurance, so cutting Milloy was not the same situation at all. We had NO ONE when Spikes was traded and STILL have no one.

[justasportsfan]

First of all, the faulty logic is you assuming that all positions are the same and trying to treat all positions the same. But we've been over this and you simply don't understand it so there is no point in re-hashing that discussion. haha! For every success there's a bust regardless of position. While Replacing Spikes with a draft pick (maybe Ellison or Willis) is not a guranteed replacement for Spikes a 2nd or 3rd rd rb in the draft is an upgrade over WM ? If you can't see how stupid that is, not my bad


Second, I have never changed my views on Price- signing him was questionable and I STILL say he's questionable. He's a #3 at best and he's making #2 money despite the fact opposing defenses do NOT see him as a threat. He's not even good enough to be a decoy at this point. I have never waivered in my doubts about Peerless Price. Don't make me dig out that post you made in the past when you said "I might be wrong about Price" when he was making plays. That to me sounds you're starting to change your tune.


Third, I still have some doubts about Marv and I definitely have my doubts about Jauron. Jauron proved to be better at getting the team prepared for games than I thought, but his in-game decision-making is mind-boggling and amateur a lot of the time. Marv has made some good moves and some stupid ones (see Peerless Price). Overall, they did better than I expected to in some areas last year and I do like the youth, but I think I may have been premature when I said I liked the direction the team was headed because now they're just creating holes left and right. Who deosn't have their doubts about this FO? Even I said the jury is still out. It's when you swing back and forth about your opinion of them is when it get's funny.


Fourth, who made you the authority on how to rebuild? Even your user name says you're just a fan. . No one did. Not even me, but I sure do know that you tend to lose players when you rebuild and it usually takes time to replace them especially if you go about it the smart way. . I'm not sure about you.



And finally, you must be a Carter fan- afraid to make a decision. I'm not afraid to call it as I see it- if I'm wrong later on, good- if I'm right, that's actually a bad thing because it means the team sucks. .Actually that was Clinton as well. But no, you can't jusged even a President in their first year. It's easy for you to come up with the opinion that Carter couldn't make a decision after several years. Besides, you were to young to even remember when he was President , that alone means he's been gone from his positions for decades now. Marv and Dicxk are only in their first year.


But somewhere you developed this mentality that a coach/GM either has to win a SB or get fired before judgement can be passed. .that's your lack of comprehension.



We've had a full year of football and one and half off-seasons of Levy, Jauron and co.... certainly it's not enough to determine how history will remember them but it's more than enough to be worthy of comment.
. But , but... you said they had this team headed the right direction and then say you spoke too soon and then...... don't go changing your mind again.


I said to Miyagi yesterday that this board would be awfully boring if every thread was "The Bills signed Joe Schmoe- Great Job Marv" followed by 19 pages of other posters going "I agree- great job". Well it would be equally as boring if every thread was "The Bills Signed Joe Schmoe- let's wait 3 years to see how he does before we pass judgement" followed by 19 pages of "i'll give my opinion on this when his contract ends". who's talking about homerism here? I'm not?

[justasportsfan]

show me stats where a team lost 3 Starters in ONE offseason without ADDING anyone and got better just because of one year of experience. And you accuse me of faulty logic....

Oh, and once again- we HAD Whitner and Simpson before we cut Vincent and we kept Wire for insurance, so cutting Milloy was not the same situation at all. We had NO ONE when Spikes was traded and STILL have no one.
Uh, OP. I'm not the one who said that we failed here or were weaker here there like it fact. You're the one who did, so I want facts. So where are they?

If people said that we'd be stronger at safety by replacing Milloy and Wire with rookie , we'd be crazy. Well , how did that go?

[OpIv37]

Uh, OP. I'm not the one who said that we failed here or were weaker here there like it fact. You're the one who did, so I want facts. So where are they?

If people said that we'd be stronger at safety by replacing Milloy and Wire with rookie , we'd be crazy. Well , how did that go?

It's not fact- yet. But if you honestly think that there is an equal chance of this D being better as there is of this D being worse, you're kidding yourself. The most likely outcome is that this D suffered a serious hit.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Repeat after me:

Holy grail
Holy grail
Holy grail....

[OpIv37]

haha! For every success there's a bust regardless of position. While Replacing Spikes with a draft pick (maybe Ellison or Willis) is not a guranteed replacement for Spikes a 2nd or 3rd rd rb in the draft is an upgrade over WM ? If you can't see how stupid that is, not my bad

Finding an RB who can start from Day 1 is easier than finding an LB who can start from Day 1, therefore the risk in the McGahee trade is less than the risk in the Spikes trade. If you can't see that, not my bad.



Don't make me dig out that post you made in the past when you said "I might be wrong about Price" when he was making plays. That to me sounds you're starting to change your tune.


I don't recall saying that- if I did, it was probably post-game euphoria. I need to learn not to post in the immediate aftermath of a game because I'm not thinking clearly.



Who deosn't have their doubts about this FO? Even I said the jury is still out. It's when you swing back and forth about your opinion of them is when it get's funny.

No one did. Not even me, but I sure do know that you tend to lose players when you rebuild and it usually takes time to replace them especially if you go about it the smart way. . I'm not sure about you.


Actually that was Clinton as well. But no, you can't jusged even a President in their first year. It's easy for you to come up with the opinion that Carter couldn't make a decision after several years. Besides, you were to young to even remember when he was President , that alone means he's been gone from his positions for decades now. Marv and Dicxk are only in their first year.


Overall judgement- maybe not. But each decision can be taken on it's own merit.
If we draft a receiver and Peerless Price gets cut and the Bills go on to win the SB, that will mean that Marv and Jauron know what they're doing but it doesn't make the Price move any good.




But , but... you said they had this team headed the right direction and then say you spoke too soon and then...... don't go changing your mind again.


So, once someone makes a decision, they are forced to stick with it for the rest of their lives? Times change. After the 2004 season with the strong finish, a lot of people thought Mularkey was good and the team was headed in the right direction. Halfway through 2005, a lot of those same people were calling for his head. Are those people flip-floppers? Or did they just change their view as more information became available?

At the end of the season it looked like we were headed in the right direction. But a lot has happened since then and that no longer seems to be the case.



who's talking about homerism here? I'm not?

I'm not talking about homerism- I'm talking about how to keep the board interesting. If everyone agreed that the Bills were great, this place would be boring. If everyone was as unwilling to form an opinion as you, this board would also be boring.

[justasportsfan]

It's not fact- yet. But if you honestly think that there is an equal chance of this D being better as there is of this D being worse, you're kidding yourself. The most likely outcome is that this D suffered a serious hit.

we shall see. That's why we have a bet. ;) I wish we didn't have to wait one whole year.

Maybe I'm kidding myself maybe I'm not. But I know that teams and players usually are able to make adjustments playing in their second year. Like I've stated several times, the pat's have done it, the colts, etc. while not forgetting like TGOK pointed , while there have been teams that have been successful there have also been teams that have failed. .

I don't have enough data to decide after only 1 year of rebuild that's why the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned .

Seems to me you already have enough data that you'already decided. We shall see soon enough and you know (as well as PAt ) I have a pornographic I mean photographic memory when it comes to remembering you *****ed about what :D

[Neggie Nancy]

that's an awful lot of money to risk on especially if he waaah's in the locker room all year round . Let's not forget that the player you want (briggs) s doing the same Waah over at chicago.

As far as being better than any of the 4 players behind him , I'll leave that up to the doctors and coaches. I'm almost sure they weighed their options.

Moving Spikes was a good move. Time to find his replacement. Like I said, improving from within might already be there. I don't know that but that's how teams build a solid core without breaking the bank like the redskins. MArv already stated in the luncheon they need help at hat position. You're just to whiny to even wait just like before Dockery was here.
I dont disagree except..

FIND your replacement for Spikes, and THEN cut him.. ( Darwin Walker-- trust me he is a carbon copy of our other DT's, all pash rush, NO run support- he wont hurt or help us)

Don't assume just because you draft a LB he's going to replace Takeo Spikes.. On top of that, we already have to replace Fletcher too.

[OpIv37]

I dont disagree except..

FIND your replacement for Spikes, and THEN cut him.. ( Darwin Walker-- trust me he is a carbon copy of our other DT's, all pash rush, NO run support- he wont hurt or help us)

Don't assume just because you draft a LB he's going to replace Takeo Spikes.. On top of that, we already have to replace Fletcher too.

well if Darwin Walker can rush the passer, he's not a carbon copy- he's actually an improvement. None of our DT's have proven to be adept at rushing the passer, despite the fact that they were signed to do just that.

[Neggie Nancy]

Actually, I think ALL of our DT's are decent pass rushers.. Tripplett certainly is, and I think McCargo is as well, though he was hurt last year so we didnt get to see it. And Walker can get after the QB too.

But being a pass rusher means nothing when you cant fight off a block to stop a running play to save your life. Just because are strength on the DL is the pass rush, doesnt mean a team has to throw on us.

If I was an offensive coordinator right now and playing the Bills tommorow, 80% of my plays would be running plays. It doesnt matter if you and everyone in the stadium knows it coming.. the bottom line is you cant do anything to stop it.

[OpIv37]

we shall see. That's why we have a bet. ;) I wish we didn't have to wait one whole year.

Maybe I'm kidding myself maybe I'm not. But I know that teams and players usually are able to make adjustments playing in their second year. Like I've stated several times, the pat's have done it, the colts, etc. while not forgetting like TGOK pointed , while there have been teams that have been successful there have also been teams that have failed. .

I don't have enough data to decide after only 1 year of rebuild that's why the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned .

Seems to me you already have enough data that you'already decided. We shall see soon enough and you know (as well as PAt ) I have a pornographic I mean photographic memory when it comes to remembering you *****ed about what :D


honestly, though, how long SHOULD it take to rebuild? Like I said before, the clock is always ticking so the more holes we create without filling them, the more nervous I get.

I'll agree that the jury's still out- it's too early to say that Marv and Jauron are failures and need to be replaced and it's too early to annoint them as the best Bills GM/coach in history. But it's not too early to give our opinions on how things are going so far. So far, on paper this off-season is a setback.

Now, there are plenty of examples of teams looking one way on paper and performing a different way on the field, but there are many more examples of teams being very consistent with the preseason expectations.

Is it impossible for the Bills to do well this year? No, but on paper it doesn't look good. I'll stick to my mantra of hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

[justasportsfan]

I dont disagree except..

FIND your replacement for Spikes, and THEN cut him.. . Not in this case. The Eagles had a Deal. Should we have waited to find Spikes' replacement FIRST before dealing him?

If it took too long and the Eagles decided to cancel Spikes what then? We're stuck with a 5 million questionmark that doesn't want to be here.

[OpIv37]

Actually, I think ALL of our DT's are decent pass rushers.. Tripplett certainly is, and I think McCargo is as well, though he was hurt last year so we didnt get to see it. And Walker can get after the QB too.

But being a pass rusher means nothing when you cant fight off a block to stop a running play to save your life. Just because are strength on the DL is the pass rush, doesnt mean a team has to throw on us.

If I was an offensive coordinator right now and playing the Bills tommorow, 80% of my plays would be running plays. It doesnt matter if you and everyone in the stadium knows it coming.. the bottom line is you cant do anything to stop it.

It took Tripplett 10 games to get his first sack and he had 2.5 on the year. Now, I know even good pass-rushing DT's aren't going to get double-digit sacks like DE's, but those numbers are paltry.

[OpIv37]

Not in this case. The Eagles had a Deal. Should we have waited to find Spikes' replacement FIRST before dealing him?

If it took too long and the Eagles decided to cancel Spikes what then? We're stuck with a 5 million questionmark that doesn't want to be here.

to Levy's credit he worked out a pretty good deal for Spikes, but that doesn't change the fact that we have no one to play LB.

[justasportsfan]

honestly, though, how long SHOULD it take to rebuild? Like I said before, the clock is always ticking so the more holes we create without filling them, the more nervous I get. . after this year, let the criticism fly.



I'll agree that the jury's still out- it's too early to say that Marv and Jauron are failures and need to be replaced and it's too early to annoint them as the best Bills GM/coach in history. But it's not too early to give our opinions on how things are going so far. So far, on paper this off-season is a setback.. Now the jury is out? So all you *****ed about is paper? why you :mad:




Now, there are plenty of examples of teams looking one way on paper and performing a different way on the field, but there are many more examples of teams being very consistent with the preseason expectations.

Is it impossible for the Bills to do well this year? No, but on paper it doesn't look good. I'll stick to my mantra of hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

you could've saved us so much time if you had this outlook in the first place instead of saying we failed in doing this and that. :mad:

[Neggie Nancy]

the next 5 days will tell what kind of football team we are and how committed we are to winning..

If we go after a Turner and/or Briggs before the weekend.. If we move up for a player we really like or go down for a player we really like but at a better draft spot.. Then I'll be impressed.. IN fact, I dont care if we go 2-14, at least they will show the fans that they are ATTEMPTING to do all they can to win..

But if they just sit back there this week, take a cornerback like Leon Hall with the first pick ONLY BECAUSE we lost Nate Clements, take a RB with the second pick like Antonio Pittman ONLY because we LOST Willis McGahee, take a LB with the third pick JUST BECAUSE we lost Fletcher and Spikes.. And just throw bodies in their as replacements, then my disgust with this team will reach an all-time high.

Pick a source, offensively or defensively that is a STRENGTH of this team and make it stronger, perhaps even unstoppable. that's how we will win.

Just cutting and trading off big names (worth it or not) and salaries and continuing to replace them with "reach" rookies is a formula for a 1990's Bengal'ish run.

We got cap room, we got an extra day one pick.. Be aggressive and make **** happen.. Show SOME KIND of committment to gettin better NOW, not in 2-3 years

[justasportsfan]

to Levy's credit he worked out a pretty good deal for Spikes,.

tell that to Moran.



but that doesn't change the fact that we have no one to play LB. : It will come if it's not already here , sheez. Marv's not stupid.

I'm just glad he's not grabbing payers like the redskins.

I guess I'll have to prepare myself if in case Spikes replacement comes in the form of a draft pick. That'll mean more complains from you since it takes draft picks time to adjust to the NFL.

[Neggie Nancy]

Not in this case. The Eagles had a Deal. Should we have waited to find Spikes' replacement FIRST before dealing him?

If it took too long and the Eagles decided to cancel Spikes what then? We're stuck with a 5 million questionmark that doesn't want to be here.
in my opinion, YES..

Its fair to disagree, but my point was I dont care about the trade for Walker.. He'll be the 4th DT in our rotation, he'll play a couple of series per game (baring injury) he'll put up a couple of sacks for the year and he'll get RUN ALL OVER.. IMO< we're not better or worse with Walker on this roster.. He is what he is.. a role player.

TKO right NOW is a boom or bust player... If he busts (meaning he doesnt get back from this injury-w hich I think he already did- the hamstring hindered him more than anything last year). But anyway, if he busts then you cut him.. You save the cap space........... But if he does come back, you have a PRO BOWL, game-changing LB on your roster still.

Holcomb was getting dumped one way or the other..and like I said I dont care about Walker..

I'd have Kept Spikes, at least until I already had a suitable replacment and not assume I can find a 6th round LB that can start back to back years.

Im sure many don't share my view with this.. thats fine.

[justasportsfan]

the next 5 days will tell what kind of football team we are and how committed we are to winning results on the field usually tells us what kind of team we have . Not what we fans think of the draft :rolleyes:

[Neggie Nancy]

I never said Levy didnt work out a decent deal for Spikes.. at least he got SOMETHING for him instead of nothing or a 7th rounder.

That's NOT my point.

My point is I would've done NOTHING with him until I found out how he looks in training camp AND/OR I had a suitable replacement for him on my roster. We currently do NOT have one, and please dont tell me "we'll get it through the draft" like the draft is going to fill the other 8-9 holes currently on this team as well.

If he stinks it up in Philly, then it was a good trade.. If he is even close to being back to himself in Philly, then it was a God Awful mistake. Obviously, time will tell but its my OPINION that he's going to be a hell of a lot better than he was in 2006; which equates to being better than just about any rookie that will be on the field this year.

AS far as Wire, Haggan, DiGorgia, etc. Spikes can break both his legs on the first play of the game and still be better than them.

[OpIv37]

after this year, let the criticism fly.

Now the jury is out? So all you *****ed about is paper? why you :mad:




you could've saved us so much time if you had this outlook in the first place instead of saying we failed in doing this and that. :mad:


well so far we've failed to find a starting LB or an experienced CB or an experienced RB. Considering that draft picks are not experienced, I feel that's an accurate statement. Now, does that necessarily mean failure on the field? No- I have a strong suspicion that it will, but no one knows for sure.

I don't think RB will be a problem. As far as CB, well it seems that the staff is happy with Youboty and K Thomas. I don't see us doing anything here except maybe adding depth. This makes me INCREDIBLY nervous but like you said, I felt the same way about Whitner and Simpson last year. I'm hoping this will work out but I have a feeling we're gonna take our lumps, at least early in the season.

LB is a big trouble spot. We will find a replacement in the draft- the question mark is whether that replacement will be an upgrade or not.

[Neggie Nancy]

Patrick Willis is an instant upgrade.
Beason could be an instant upgrade..

Anything else is a project. (LB)

[Earthquake Enyart]

well so far we've failed to find a starting LB or an experienced CB or an experienced RB. Considering that draft picks are not experienced, I feel that's an accurate statement. Now, does that necessarily mean failure on the field? No- I have a strong suspicion that it will, but no one knows for sure.

I don't think RB will be a problem. As far as CB, well it seems that the staff is happy with Youboty and K Thomas. I don't see us doing anything here except maybe adding depth. This makes me INCREDIBLY nervous but like you said, I felt the same way about Whitner and Simpson last year. I'm hoping this will work out but I have a feeling we're gonna take our lumps, at least early in the season.

LB is a big trouble spot. We will find a replacement in the draft- the question mark is whether that replacement will be an upgrade or not.
I agree 100%

[justasportsfan]

My point is I would've done NOTHING with him until I found out how he looks in training camp AND/OR I had a suitable replacement for him on my roster. . I wanted that too, before I found out he wanted to leave.

[justasportsfan]

well so far we've failed to find a starting LB or an experienced CB or an experienced RB. Considering that draft picks are not experienced, I feel that's an accurate statement. Now, does that necessarily mean failure on the field? No- I have a strong suspicion that it will, but no one knows for sure.

I don't think RB will be a problem. As far as CB, well it seems that the staff is happy with Youboty and K Thomas. I don't see us doing anything here except maybe adding depth. This makes me INCREDIBLY nervous but like you said, I felt the same way about Whitner and Simpson last year. I'm hoping this will work out but I have a feeling we're gonna take our lumps, at least early in the season.

LB is a big trouble spot. We will find a replacement in the draft- the question mark is whether that replacement will be an upgrade or not.
this post sound so much better. :up:

[Night Train]

We've been in trouble at LB for a few years now.

Agreed. Then when we finally try to make changes, it's the apocalypse.

[tat2dmike77]

If ogden gets injuried this season for baltimore then ravens fans will see the true mcgayhee. Ogden is going to be the guy that will open holes for willis we all know what happens when mcgayhee gets down by the end zone. He disappers the only way mcgayhee will have great season again is if the ravens get travis henry. For some reason neither one has had a good year since they parted ways in buffalo.

As far as spikes. Well i like spikes and he just was not producing. I think we got a good DT for him. So i have nothing negative to say about spikes.

Now holcomb how could we loose him he is the glue of this team. :roflmao: