Cash To Cap.. Illustrated for your own eyes

[patmoran2006]

I just spent some time on Clump's Salary Cap Page.

SInce I already know Clump's work is almost entirely accurate (or damn close); I can conclude that this is CRAZY and Reason #1 why I hope to God Ralph Wilson isnt our owner in 2 years.

The following are numbers from Clump for the three big Free Agents we inked this offseason, plus last year's top draft pick. For any other team in the NFL besides Buffalo, the first set of numbers is what their salary cap hit would be. The second set is for Buffalo ONLY, and this is what our self-policed "cash to cap" hit is.

REGULAR CAP NUMBER
Derrick Dockery $6.75 million
Lansgton Walker $3.0 million
Chris Kelsay $6.0 million
Donte Whitner $3.08 million

BILLS CASH TO CAP 2007 NUMBER
Derrick Dockery $13.5 million
Langston Walker $7.0 million
Chris Kelsay $12.0 million
Donte Whitner $9.45 million

The difference betwen the two is $23.15 million, and that's between FOUR PLAYERS.

That's insane. Now you know why we didnt sign any WR, CB, LB or anyone else in Free Agency after Day One. How are you supposed to contend for championships when four players cost your team almost $42 million against the "cap", while for the other 31 teams the number is under $19 million.

The Good news is the Bills will be at or near the top in cap room every year. The bad news is unless your Ralph Wilson, who gives a ****.

[Jan Reimers]

This is the kind of continual carping that frustrates the Hell out of me. We all know you hate "Cash to Cap," that you think Ralph is a cheapskate, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Regardless, Ralph is going to own this team and run it as he sees fit until he dies.

When you own the team, you can run it anyway you want. Until then, can we just skip you're 57 repetitive, negative posts per day?

[Mitchy moo]

This is the kind of continual carping that frustrates the Hell out of me. We all know you hate "Cash to Cap," that you think Ralph is a cheapskate, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Regardless, Ralph is going to own this team and run it as he sees fit until he dies.

When you own the team, you can run it anyway you want. Until then, can we just skip you're 57 repetitive, negative posts per day?

This was his 58th, not 57th.

[feelthepain]

Ralphs not the one who targeted those players. And isn't your GM reposible for negotiating contracts?? Nobody forced the Bills to pay so much for those players.

[patmoran2006]

This is the kind of continual carping that frustrates the Hell out of me. We all know you hate "Cash to Cap," that you think Ralph is a cheapskate, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Regardless, Ralph is going to own this team and run it as he sees fit until he dies.

When you own the team, you can run it anyway you want. Until then, can we just skip you're 57 repetitive, negative posts per day?
and so are the 57 posts per day about how much marshawn lynch loves his mom.

Maybe I ***** about Wilson too much, but it's because my frustration grows when we have a nice core of talent and an owner who can't understand what the CBA is anymore, let alone correctly pronounce the last name of our second draft pick. And my posts are almost always supported with facts.

[Yasgur's Farm]

The good news is that the following numbers will not have to be accounted for in 2008 and beyond...

Derrick Dockery $6.75 M
Lansgton Walker $3.5 M
Chris Kelsay $6.0 M
Donte Whitner $6.37 M

Total... $22.62 M

The Ralph isn't necessarily being cheap... Marv is simply making the Bills fiscally responsible when it comes to The NFL salary cap.

[patmoran2006]

Ralphs not the one who targeted those players.
The POST isnt about the PLAYERS we target. You cant judge players before they play.

Its about how much more money it costs the Buffalo Bills to sign their guys against their own "salary cap" versus the rest of the league.

[Dr. Lecter]

Cash to cap is long term plan. Not short term, immediate gratification. We all must pay off our credit cards. This will allow the Bills to sign more players each year.

[OpIv37]

This is the kind of continual carping that frustrates the Hell out of me. We all know you hate "Cash to Cap," that you think Ralph is a cheapskate, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Regardless, Ralph is going to own this team and run it as he sees fit until he dies.

When you own the team, you can run it anyway you want. Until then, can we just skip you're 57 repetitive, negative posts per day?

in Pat's defense, this time he came up with actual numbers to prove how much the "cash to cap" philosophy limits our ability to attract players.

However, time will tell what happens from here on out. If- like draz suggested- the strategy is being used to maximize cap hits NOW so we have the flexibility to make big FA splashes or at least re-sign guys like Evans in the future, it could be a good thing.

If, however, someone like Evans is allowed to walk because of "cash to cap", then we as fans should be rioting in front of the stadium. That's a losing policy for sure.

[Philagape]

Cash to cap is long term plan. Not short term, immediate gratification. We all must pay off our credit cards. This will allow the Bills to sign more players each year.

But if cash to cap remains in effect each year, then any signings would continue to eat up much more than they would under another team. Either way we're under a financial burden.

[Don't Panic]

As was said, the two good things about cash to cap are:
a) Guys will actually come in lower than their cap number in years other than their bonus (signing or other) years.
b) When Ralph breaks on through to the other side, we will be an extremely attractive buy due to our "financial prudence" and, therefore, lower overhead.
Let's just hope we can field a competitive team in the meantime.

[feelthepain]

The POST isnt about the PLAYERS we target. You cant judge players before they play.

Its about how much more money it costs the Buffalo Bills to sign their guys against their own "salary cap" versus the rest of the league.

Yeah and if the Bills don't spend the money the fans complain. I don't like the players the Bills targeted this year, but at least they did something and spent the money to get the players they wanted, you should at least wait and see if they got their moeys worth. This is a business and for teams like the Bills in a small market the owners have to get creative to make money. I'm sure you don't have exclusive access to what the Bills overhead or know their bottom line. After all, if they want to make money in the NFL maybe this is their way of doing it. I don't know all the expenses they face and I don't know what they consider a successful year as an NFL franchise, but then again I'm sure you don't either. My point is you're only looking at it in wins and losses, not profit. they have to consider everything, you just want to win. As a fan that's fine, as an owner, you don't have that luxury.

[Philagape]

As was said, the two good things about cash to cap are:
a) Guys will actually come in lower than their cap number in years other than their bonus (signing or other) years.
b) When Ralph breaks on through to the other side, we will be an extremely attractive buy due to our "financial prudence" and, therefore, lower overhead.
Let's just hope we can field a competitive team in the meantime.

Gee, now I feel better :hang:

[TacklingDummy]

Lets face it, with the players the Bills have there is no reason to go over the cap anyways.

I can see the Bills going over their "cash to cap" if Losman pans out and when Lee gets a new contract.

[Michael82]

This is the kind of continual carping that frustrates the Hell out of me. We all know you hate "Cash to Cap," that you think Ralph is a cheapskate, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Regardless, Ralph is going to own this team and run it as he sees fit until he dies.

When you own the team, you can run it anyway you want. Until then, can we just skip you're 57 repetitive, negative posts per day?
Great post! :bf1:

[Statman]

in Pat's defense, this time he came up with actual numbers to prove how much the "cash to cap" philosophy limits our ability to attract players.

However, time will tell what happens from here on out. If- like draz suggested- the strategy is being used to maximize cap hits NOW so we have the flexibility to make big FA splashes or at least re-sign guys like Evans in the future, it could be a good thing.

If, however, someone like Evans is allowed to walk because of "cash to cap", then we as fans should be rioting in front of the stadium. That's a losing policy for sure.
Everyone's missing the point on this entire thing.

The point is not to sign big names. It's to have a good team. A roster full of nothing but above average players yet no superstars (i.e. Lee Evans) is perfectly capable of winning games, making the playoffs, and performing very admirably in the them.

What's missing on this team is the ability of anyone to take a "bird's eye" view of the team, look at it as a system instead of just a bunch of blank spaces that need filling in and yet must work together like a well-oiled machine.

Yeah, Lynch may be great. But just like so many other RBs on teams such as ours that failed miserably as a direct result of teams as such, so too Lynch will struggle. Then the team's leadership will blame Lynch (implicitly/indirectly) when it's not Lynch at all thinking that they just need another RB. The fans too.

In fact we just went through such a cycle. McGahee was predictably overrated and never came back entirely or close from his knee injury. But to suggest, as many right here have, in hindsight in spite of contrarily to their "foresight," all of our running game woes were not directly related to McGahee.

Meanwhile y'all just keep on talking as if each player operates in a vacuum.

Our defensive line sucks tail and in spite of what many here think, our OL is good at LT and LG but the buck stops there. We still have little balance in the passing game, a QB that struggles in the short game, no real blocking presence in the backfield, no decent TE, a Center that thinks playing is spectating, and a RT that many here think is good just because he makes a hundred times more than they do.

Whatever.

When this team starts to treat this "team" as a system, and not merely a collection of individual parts as we have been for years as if one good part can override two or three bad ones, then maybe, just maybe we will have a team that we can all be proud of again!

But not until.

[jack1022]

[quote=patmoran2006]and so are the 57 posts per day about how much marshawn lynch loves his mom.

quote]

Pat, I've never heard you talk about your moma, and we know how negative you are (direct linkage to your issues).. I think you have issues you need to resolve b/w you and your moma and stop getting gelious about another kid loving his mother..

see a counselor Pat....

[ddaryl]

ok then how do we assure ourselves of ebing able to sign JP and Evans longterm.. If you can explain to me how we do that without cash to cap this year then maybe you have an argument.

IMO the only way we have the ability to keep our own players is to make sure there is plenty of cash to do so...

Cash to cap hogties us this year, but next year we will be capable of signing JP and Evans longterm and still be able to sign a FA or 3.

I think cash to cap is a GREAT move... it hurts some in the short term, but in the years ahead were in solid shape.


but then again you among a few others really believe Ralph is cheap. I personally do not even comprehend that mindset.

[User Manuel]

I think the cash to the cap philosophy was the last salvo in the public relations war Ralph launched to force the league to cave on revenue sharing.

I think you will see the strategy abandoned now and in following seasons.

Remember, this was all before the revenue sharing was approved?

[Philagape]

If Ralph announced that cash to cap was only a temporary policy, I'd feel a lot better. But no one has said that.

Almost every year there will be players to re-sign. We're talking about JP and Evans, but what about Peters? Schobel? Crowell? McGee? Last year's and this year's rookies? It's a cycle, and what cash to cap does is make that a cycle of the status quo. Sign limited FAs now, save later. Sign limited FAs now, save later. Sign limited FAs now, save later. Later just keeps becoming later and later and later while all we do is replace the players we lose, make one big splash (Dockery) and sign guys like Langston Walker.

Now next year is an exception to that since there are no major contracts up. If cash to cap was designed with 2008 in mind, so we'd have a megaboatload to spend, then it's a brilliant strategy. But all signs seem to indicate that it's Ralph's way of saying we've been priced out of the league's economy, and the goal of this team is stay somewhat competitive, economically stable and maybe be a real contender if our drafts and limited FA signings are perfect. I like Marv as much as the next guy, but near-perfection is required to build a contender under these circumstances. There's zero room for error.

[Dr. Lecter]

Also remember people, that this policy was adopted before the new money distribution was approved. The Bills should have more cash in hand next year/

[Spiderweb]

Yeah and if the Bills don't spend the money the fans complain. I don't like the players the Bills targeted this year, but at least they did something and spent the money to get the players they wanted, you should at least wait and see if they got their moeys worth. This is a business and for teams like the Bills in a small market the owners have to get creative to make money. I'm sure you don't have exclusive access to what the Bills overhead or know their bottom line. After all, if they want to make money in the NFL maybe this is their way of doing it. I don't know all the expenses they face and I don't know what they consider a successful year as an NFL franchise, but then again I'm sure you don't either. My point is you're only looking at it in wins and losses, not profit. they have to consider everything, you just want to win. As a fan that's fine, as an owner, you don't have that luxury.

Very well stated.....:clap:

[Jan Reimers]

I know there is a correlation between money spent and success in sports. But money is not the only factor. Just look at the Yankees. They perennially have the highest payroll in all of sports, but are struggling mightily this season, and haven't won a World Series in several years.

I think we dwell way too much on cash to cap, and not nearly enough on players and performance.

[Philagape]

The good news is that the following numbers will not have to be accounted for in 2008 and beyond...

Derrick Dockery $6.75 M
Lansgton Walker $3.5 M
Chris Kelsay $6.0 M
Donte Whitner $6.37 M

Total... $22.62 M


Has this been confirmed by the league? I'd sure like to see some official 2008 salary cap chart

[Yasgur's Farm]

Has this been confirmed by the league? I'd sure like to see some official 2008 salary cap chart PM gave the guaranteed money figures and the ammount the Bills counted for 2007 vs what the salary cap minimum is.

I simply did the math.

REGULAR CAP NUMBER
Derrick Dockery $6.75 million
Lansgton Walker $3.0 million
Chris Kelsay $6.0 million
Donte Whitner $3.08 million

BILLS CASH TO CAP 2007 NUMBER
Derrick Dockery $13.5 million
Langston Walker $7.0 million
Chris Kelsay $12.0 million
Donte Whitner $9.45 million

Derrick Dockery $6.75 M
Lansgton Walker $3.5 M
Chris Kelsay $6.0 M
Donte Whitner $6.37 M
Actually, I didn't do the math very well... Langston Walker's future savings is off by $.5M

[Philagape]

PM gave the guaranteed money figures and the ammount the Bills counted for 2007 vs what the salary cap minimum is.

I simply did the math.


Actually, I didn't do the math very well... Langston Walker's future savings is off by $.5M

But you're assuming that the NFL will do the same math. Do we know that? How do we know the NFL won't say, "Sorry, Bills, cash to cap is your own thing and your bonuses will still count against the cap in 2008 and beyond?"

[Dr. Lecter]

Because teams have the option not to amortize the bonus's.

[HHURRICANE]

What free agents did we pass on that were going to improve our team? Just curious.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Because teams have the option not to amortize the bonus's.BINGO!

[YardRat]

This is a one year shot, IMO...and it will set us up nicely for 2008.

[clumping platelets]

SInce I already know Clump's work is almost entirely accurate (or damn close)

:kissa:


You forgot to :bow: in the presence of :clump:

[Meathead]

im a fan of cash to cap

when i go to the season opener im gonna be like those weather channel fans and paint my face with 'cash to cap' on it

[BillsFever21]

I agree. This is complete load of crap. I would be for this theory if they did this only until after this year while they were trying to build a team and get younger but you know it will be the same next year.

The advantages of that would have been that them 4 players woud've cost us a ton this year but for the rest of their contract it would've been dirt cheap and we would've saved 10+ million a year on our salary cap between all them players for the life on their contracts.

This would be a great plan if you had a ton of cap room like we did for the last two years but there wasn't any free agents worth signing that fit your needs. You could give them a huge cap number the first year and it would lower their cap number significantly over the next couple years. That certaintly wasn't the case because there were many young FA's that could have improved our team.

With the extra cap room you could give them more and then have a ton of extra money when you players that you wanna sign. The worse thing about this is we have 20+ million extra in cap space between them and we will still be sitting 10+ million over the cap this year.

I hope you guys don't like Losman and Evans. We won't have both of them after a couple more years. We may be lucky to see one of them.


I just spent some time on Clump's Salary Cap Page.

SInce I already know Clump's work is almost entirely accurate (or damn close); I can conclude that this is CRAZY and Reason #1 why I hope to God Ralph Wilson isnt our owner in 2 years.

The following are numbers from Clump for the three big Free Agents we inked this offseason, plus last year's top draft pick. For any other team in the NFL besides Buffalo, the first set of numbers is what their salary cap hit would be. The second set is for Buffalo ONLY, and this is what our self-policed "cash to cap" hit is.

REGULAR CAP NUMBER
Derrick Dockery $6.75 million
Lansgton Walker $3.0 million
Chris Kelsay $6.0 million
Donte Whitner $3.08 million

BILLS CASH TO CAP 2007 NUMBER
Derrick Dockery $13.5 million
Langston Walker $7.0 million
Chris Kelsay $12.0 million
Donte Whitner $9.45 million

The difference betwen the two is $23.15 million, and that's between FOUR PLAYERS.

That's insane. Now you know why we didnt sign any WR, CB, LB or anyone else in Free Agency after Day One. How are you supposed to contend for championships when four players cost your team almost $42 million against the "cap", while for the other 31 teams the number is under $19 million.

The Good news is the Bills will be at or near the top in cap room every year. The bad news is unless your Ralph Wilson, who gives a ****.

[BillsFever21]

But if cash to cap remains in effect each year, then any signings would continue to eat up much more than they would under another team. Either way we're under a financial burden.

Don't waste your breath. Some people just don't understand what they are reading or don't wanna believe it. Either way you're wasting your time.

[BillsFever21]

:clap:

Great post. Some people will always believe only what they wish to believe though. Nothing is going to change. The extra money in the revenue sharing will just mean more of a profit in Wilson's eyes.

I see Wilson as somebody who plans on making a certain amount of money. If the cap goes up 20 million, Wilson isn't the type who will spend that money and take a hit in his profits. He has his figure of the profit he wants to make and he's going to stick to it.

Since he can only sell the tickets for so much he can't make up that money in extra revenue from tickets then that will be less he will spend. If the revene sharing goes up enough that he can still bring home a slightly higer profit he may spend more on the cash to cap theory but we will never see the days of him owing players money into the future.

Just because there is a cap figure it doesn't mean every team spends that same amount. Teams can give higer signing bonuses which lowers the cap figures every year for them.

I don't wanna hear the excuses that we need to save the money to be able to afford Losman and Evans on our cap. There are many teams out there that have some huge contracts on their payroll but they still are able to stay under the cap year after year and add players they need every year along with it. With the regular spending like the other 31 teams we can still afford to give them contracts and have flexibility under the cap.

With our strategy with the cap though we need to use this method if we want even a remote chance which they probably won't do anyway. If we did happen to save enough money from this strategy to sign them guys then that will be it. We'll put our eggs in one basket and go from there. There won't be many more players besides that.

You can have 500 million of cap room over a 5 year period. Teams that are cap savvy and that are not cheap can spend 550+ million over this period and still have flexibility. This is just an excuse for Buffalo.

Buffalo would rather use this method to make it look like they are spending money. They need to use a certain amount of the cap. If they prorate the bonuses there isn't anyway they will spend enough money to meet the percentage of the cap spent. In the process they can fool some people into believing their spending money just because most of their cap room is used. While the Bills are spending 92 of that 100 million that season other teams who are dedicated to trying to win will spend 120 million that year. They still have no problems with the cap.


If Ralph announced that cash to cap was only a temporary policy, I'd feel a lot better. But no one has said that.

Almost every year there will be players to re-sign. We're talking about JP and Evans, but what about Peters? Schobel? Crowell? McGee? Last year's and this year's rookies? It's a cycle, and what cash to cap does is make that a cycle of the status quo. Sign limited FAs now, save later. Sign limited FAs now, save later. Sign limited FAs now, save later. Later just keeps becoming later and later and later while all we do is replace the players we lose, make one big splash (Dockery) and sign guys like Langston Walker.

Now next year is an exception to that since there are no major contracts up. If cash to cap was designed with 2008 in mind, so we'd have a megaboatload to spend, then it's a brilliant strategy. But all signs seem to indicate that it's Ralph's way of saying we've been priced out of the league's economy, and the goal of this team is stay somewhat competitive, economically stable and maybe be a real contender if our drafts and limited FA signings are perfect. I like Marv as much as the next guy, but near-perfection is required to build a contender under these circumstances. There's zero room for error.

[BillsFever21]

Just sit back and think for a second that we're close to 20 million under the salary cap right now. We're dishing out 20+ million in salaries we don't need to because of being cheap.

That would leave us around 40 MILLION under the salary cap. Add in the players last year and you're looking at around 50 million. That is just insane. That just shows how truely cheap we are being.

By saving all that money there should be NO EXCUSES why we can't re-sign Losman and Evans. All that money in savings right there would pay for almost half of their contracts combined.

We should sign Evans right now. Stallworth got a 5 or 6 year contract worth 33 million. That's not very much at all considering we're giving Kelsay 6 million a year and guys like Price and Reed 3.5 million each a year. Would you rather have Stallworth for 5-6 million a year or Price for 3.5 million?

Evans would probably demand slightly more. Now is the time to sign him seeing Stallworth got around 6 million a year. We wait two more years and we will definitely price ourselves out of Evans if Wilson still owns this team.

Give Evans a 7yr-47 million dollar offer right now with 25 million of it guranteed and he takes it. Seeing as we're gonna be about 15 million under the cap again give 12 million this year. We would only owe him 35 million over the next 6 years after that. That would be a steal. Hell even fork out some of that money we don't have prorated over the next few years and we really have him cheap the next 6 years after that. His contract would be up around 32 which would be perfect. After year 5 we could make a decision on him.

[dolphan117]

Thanks for breaking that down. I wondered how the contracts would actually play out.