Bottom line: Offense better and Defense worse.

[HHURRICANE]

I'm not feeling better than 7-9 at this point. Our D looks pretty weak. I think our O will be exciting but I see another year of teams running the ball down our throats. When DiGiorgio is getting high marks you know we are screwed.

In the the Tampa 2 we are suppossed to "bend but not break". But when teams can run on us at will that's breaking.

[Bills232]

I HATE the Tampa 2

All the best defenses these days are in the 3-4...

[Philagape]

The fundamental flaw of the Tampa 2 is it's designed to defend the pass more than the run. "Bend but don't break" does no good because the bending eats up a lot of clock. The offense better be better, because the only thing that will save the defense is forcing oppoents to play from behind.

[Bills232]

The fundamental flaw of the Tampa 2 is it's designed to defend the pass more than the run. "Bend but don't break" does no good because the bending eats up a lot of clock. The offense better be better, because the only thing that will save the defense is forcing oppoents to play from behind.



It's good if you have talent at every position like Chicago and Tampa Bay(during their run).. It requires speed everywhere..

[Philagape]

It's good if you have talent at every position like Chicago and Tampa Bay(during their run).. It requires speed everywhere..

A big if

[gil]

I'm probably out of my mind, but I'm hopeful that with McCargo & Williams going into their second year and having added some weight combined with the improved athleticism of our LB corps, the D will be improved.

Now, excuse me while I finish my Marv brand kool-aid.

[happyspermwhale]

I'm not feeling better than 7-9 at this point. Our D looks pretty weak. I think our O will be exciting but I see another year of teams running the ball down our throats. When DiGiorgio is getting high marks you know we are screwed.

In the the Tampa 2 we are suppossed to "bend but not break". But when teams can run on us at will that's breaking.

I'm not trying to be a debbie downer, but I think our defense is going to be one of the worst in the league in 2007.

So hopefully we can score some points and win a few games because I forsee teams moving the ball at will against a young, untalented defense.

[Goobylal]

The defense will be better than last year. Remember that last year the Bills had 5 rookies playing a lot on a new defense. This year all the players will have a full year in the system, which is huge by itself. Add to that the rookies are no longer rookies, and it's another improvement. And Spikes was a shell of his former self.

[RedEyE]

On paper your theory might hold water, but statistcally, how much worse could the defense possibly get?

29th against the run.

[HHURRICANE]

The defense will be better than last year. Remember that last year the Bills had 5 rookies playing a lot on a new defense. This year all the players will have a full year in the system, which is huge by itself. Add to that the rookies are no longer rookies, and it's another improvement. And Spikes was a shell of his former self.

I already factored better play by the 2nd year players as usually there is a big jump in play. However, LB is the heart of any defense and Poz-Crowell-Ellison is going to be a huge work in progress.

[X-Era]

I'm not feeling better than 7-9 at this point. Our D looks pretty weak. I think our O will be exciting but I see another year of teams running the ball down our throats. When DiGiorgio is getting high marks you know we are screwed.

In the the Tampa 2 we are suppossed to "bend but not break". But when teams can run on us at will that's breaking.

I agree that the O is better, I disagree that the D is worse.

We added to our DL depth with a vet who can play.

We got rid of a liability in the middle vs. the run (Fletcher), and a gimp who couldnt play more than average. Ellison started the majority of the games last year and did pretty well, he will play well again IMO. We now added a much more stout LB against the run in Puz and get back Crowell who was probably our best LB anyway prior to the offseason if you consider Fletch a run liability and TKO average at this point. I actually think we are no worse at LB and probably stronger vs the run.

Secondary is where we have a loss in Clements. But lets not forget some of us wanted him benched through most of the first half of last year. He only really played average beyond that. Youboty may struggle, but McGee is no push over. Add in our strong S corp covering over the top and we may be able to adequately cover for that loss.

I see our DL deeper and stronger, our LB corp stronger against the run and much younger, and our secondary a year older with some youth that could suprise.

Playing better against the run is huge. We flat out stunk last year, at the very least were better there. I think stuffing the run will make teams take chances and get our D off the field alot more of the time.

[Goobylal]

I already factored better play by the 2nd year players as usually there is a big jump in play. However, LB is the heart of any defense and Poz-Crowell-Ellison is going to be a huge work in progress.
Not so huge. Crowell has been in the league for 4 years. Ellison is smart and a good player. Poz is a rookie, but he's a football player through and through. The kid has talent, heart, and a great work ethic. Sure there might be growing pains early, but by before mid-season, he'll prove to be an asset.

[HHURRICANE]

Not so huge. Crowell has been in the league for 4 years. Ellison is smart and a good player. Poz is a rookie, but he's a football player through and through. The kid has talent, heart, and a great work ethic. Sure there might be growing pains early, but by before mid-season, he'll prove to be an asset.

POZ IS A ROOKIE!! He'll play like a very good rookie which won't be better than Fletcher of 2006.

[Pinkerton Security]

I'm probably out of my mind, but I'm hopeful that with McCargo & Williams going into their second year and having added some weight combined with the improved athleticism of our LB corps, the D will be improved.

Now, excuse me while I finish my Marv brand kool-aid.

i thought i remembered reading an article about how mccargo bulked up to around 310, and williams put on some poundage as well. dont quote me, but i think i remember that. I hope this as well, because i like both of them.

[justasportsfan]

wait til' Op gets a hold of this thread. anyone who thinks this D will be better, better have their ear plugs (so to speak) ready :snicker:

[Generalissimus Gibby]

It's good if you have talent at every position like Chicago and Tampa Bay(during their run).. It requires speed everywhere..

Tampa during their run? WTF, you only have a run if it happens more than once. You mean during their superbowl title year.

[happyspermwhale]

I HATE the Tampa 2

All the best defenses these days are in the 3-4...

I agree, tampa 2 is played out already.

[mikemac2001]

Tampa during their run? WTF, you only have a run if it happens more than once. You mean during their superbowl title year.


They had a very good D for awhile there offense was bad

[Goobylal]

POZ IS A ROOKIE!! He'll play like a very good rookie which won't be better than Fletcher of 2006.
You sure about that? Poz has better speed and instincts than Fletcher, is better in coverage, and is about 10 years younger. And it's not like Fletcher was the key to the Bills' defense last year. Again in the beginning Poz will probably take him lumps.

And FTR, I was never a big fan of Fletcher's. When he had mammoth tackles in front of him protecting him, he was fine. But you could put any other MLB in that position and have success. He simply was never going to get better at that OR find the fountain of youth. So again, I think that a healthy Crowell, a 2nd-year Ellison, and a rookie Poz by mid-season will be a much better LB'er corp than a never-to-be-100%-again Spikes, a rookie Ellison, and Fletcher.

[Fletch]

I HATE the Tampa 2

All the best defenses these days are in the 3-4...
We don't have the talent or quantity at LB to run a 3-4 now. I don't think it would make much of a difference for our linemen though.

[TacklingDummy]

On paper your theory might hold water, but statistcally, how much worse could the defense possibly get?

29th against the run.

It's not like the offense could get any worse either.

30th YPG
27th Rushing Yards
28th Passing yards
32nd in 1st Downs
32nd in 1st downs by the pass
31st in 3rd %
28th sack yards lost

There's no where to go but up for the offense. We hope.

[HHURRICANE]

You sure about that? Poz has better speed and instincts than Fletcher, is better in coverage, and is about 10 years younger. And it's not like Fletcher was the key to the Bills' defense last year. Again in the beginning Poz will probably take him lumps.

And FTR, I was never a big fan of Fletcher's. When he had mammoth tackles in front of him protecting him, he was fine. But you could put any other MLB in that position and have success. He simply was never going to get better at that OR find the fountain of youth. So again, I think that a healthy Crowell, a 2nd-year Ellison, and a rookie Poz by mid-season will be a much better LB'er corp than a never-to-be-100%-again Spikes, a rookie Ellison, and Fletcher.

This isn't improved/better. I'm no Fletcher fan but Poz will make his own share of mistakes as a rookie that will not make us any better in 2006. Spkies actually played well in his last 2 games so I'm pretty sure it was Ellison sitting on the bench. Crowell, healthy, will help but he's not a top ten talent.

As much as I like Yobouty it'll take him half a season to find his head from his butt. Had we brought in an Adalius Thoms or Lance Briggs, and relegated Ellison to the status " of good bacup depth" than maybe I'd feel different.

[patmoran2006]

This defense, for the SHORT-TERM.. is f'n AWFUL..

There isn't one.. NOT ONE source of strength for the defense right now, other than our DE's can get after the QB on definite passing downs.

We can't stop the run with a very small and weak front four; our LB's other than Crowell are RAW as hell; our corners are wack as can be, and our safeties are growing but still another year away from being "good" in my opinion.

Bills fans may not like to read it; but it's all true. Whomever is responsible for bettering the team in the FO dropped the ball by not adding to LB and CB via FA before the draft. This team badly still needs a DE that can stop the run (not Kelsay)- a DT that can make noise CONSISTENTLY and a CB who has SOME resemblence to a #1 corner.

Cover Two zone or not. Guys like Coles, Moss, Owens, Chad Johnson, etc are going to EAT ALIVE Youboty, McGee and Thomas.

and when they're not.. Guys like travis henry, Maroney, etc are going to run the ball down our throat.

maybe they're not worth what they got in open market; but Fletch and especially Clements are going to be missed big-time, at least this year. And that's not even counting Spikes, who maybe is back fully healthy again.

I'd love to see the Bills do better defensively, but keep it real. This unit is too young and NOT overall talented enough to compete effectively.

Our best hope for a "good" (by good on this board that's 7 wins) season is to have an explosive offense that can score 21+ points per game.

[Goobylal]

This isn't improved/better. I'm no Fletcher fan but Poz will make his own share of mistakes as a rookie that will not make us any better in 2006. Spkies actually played well in his last 2 games so I'm pretty sure it was Ellison sitting on the bench. Crowell, healthy, will help but he's not a top ten talent.

As much as I like Yobouty it'll take him half a season to find his head from his butt. Had we brought in an Adalius Thoms or Lance Briggs, and relegated Ellison to the status " of good bacup depth" than maybe I'd feel different.
Ellison was starting at the end of the season, after Crowell went down. He went to the bench when Spikes returned from his early-season injury, but that was more out of respect for Spikes and Ellison being a rookie. And Spikes was a shell of his former self even in the last 2 games. Again where I'll agree with you is that Poz will take him lumps early, but will be fine before mid-season.

[patmoran2006]

Ellison was starting at the end of the season, after Crowell went down. He went to the bench when Spikes returned from his early-season injury, but that was more out of respect for Spikes and Ellison being a rookie. And Spikes was a shell of his former self even in the last 2 games. Again where I'll agree with you is that Poz will take him lumps early, but will be fine before mid-season.
For the record. Spikes had like a team-high dozen tackles in the Bills final game at Baltimore and for the first time since his injury, looked comfortable and free moving in space.

Ellison played great for a rookie CONSIDERING he was a late-round pick.. If he had been a second or third rounder his play would've been expected. But while he was productive (for a rookie) he has a long way to go to evolve into a quality NFL starter. We'll have to see if he becomes any kind of impact player.

[Jan Reimers]

I'm not sure the D will be worse. Compared to the D that ended last season:

DE - About the same, but we'll have Hargrove the entire season.

DT - Better. If we get Walker signed, we'll have him, a healthy McCargo, second year man Williams, and Triplett. That's an improvement over Anderson, Jefferson and rookie Williams.

LB - Should be better than the group that ended last season. A healthy Crowell is better than a hobbled Spikes; Poz could be every bit as good as a declining Fletcher. Second year Ellison should be better than rookie Ellison.

CB - Probably worse, depending on how much of a drop off there is from Clements to Youboty.

Safety - Better. Whitner and Simpson should improve with a year's experience. Wendling could be a better backup than anyone we had last year.

If the conventional wisdom holds, and players make their biggest jump from first to second year, we can expect major improvement from Williams, McCargo, Ellison, Whitner and Simpson. If Youboty comes through, we just might be better than expected.

[Pinkerton Security]

I'm not sure the D will be worse. Compared to the D that ended last season:

DE - About the same, but we'll have Hargrove the entire season.

DT - Better. If we get Walker signed, we'll have him, a healthy McCargo, second year man Williams, and Triplett. That's an improvement over Anderson, Jefferson and rookie Williams.

LB - Should be better than the group that ended last season. A healthy Crowell is better than a hobbled Spikes; Poz could be every bit as good as a declining Fletcher. Second year Ellison should be better than rookie Ellison.

CB - Probably worse, depending on how much of a drop off there is from Clements to Youboty.

Safety - Better. Whitner and Simpson should improve with a year's experience. Wendling could be a better backup than anyone we had last year.

If the conventional wisdom holds, and players make their biggest jump from first to second year, we can expect major improvement from Williams, McCargo, Ellison, Whitner and Simpson. If Youboty comes through, we just might be better than expected.

I agree with everything, but to be completely honest, I dont think there is any way our LB corps is better than ours from the end of last year, at least to begin with. I am glad we moved to younger players, but for some time they are going to be a minor downgrade.

And id say or cb's are no doubt worse, but i also have high hopes that youboty can make himself at least into a starting quality cb.

[OpIv37]

The defense will be better than last year. Remember that last year the Bills had 5 rookies playing a lot on a new defense. This year all the players will have a full year in the system, which is huge by itself. Add to that the rookies are no longer rookies, and it's another improvement. And Spikes was a shell of his former self.

dude, this is the most insane post I've ever read. First, we were 28th against the run- one year of improvement can't fix that. Second- our crap-tacular DL is virtually unchanged. Third, Youboty and McCargo might as well be rookies because their injuries limited their experience. Fourth, there is an obvious drop-off at the CB position with Clements' departure (I think Clements is overrated and I'm glad we didn't pay him, but he's still better than K Thomas and Youboty). Fifth, despite Spikes' limitations, no one on this roster has proven to be as good or better yet. Sixth, Fletcher's leadership will definitely be missed and it will be tough for Poz to equal his production.

There is no way in hell this D is better- it's clearly worse.

[OpIv37]

I'm not sure the D will be worse. Compared to the D that ended last season:

DE - About the same, but we'll have Hargrove the entire season.

DT - Better. If we get Walker signed, we'll have him, a healthy McCargo, second year man Williams, and Triplett. That's an improvement over Anderson, Jefferson and rookie Williams.

LB - Should be better than the group that ended last season. A healthy Crowell is better than a hobbled Spikes; Poz could be every bit as good as a declining Fletcher. Second year Ellison should be better than rookie Ellison.

CB - Probably worse, depending on how much of a drop off there is from Clements to Youboty.

Safety - Better. Whitner and Simpson should improve with a year's experience. Wendling could be a better backup than anyone we had last year.

If the conventional wisdom holds, and players make their biggest jump from first to second year, we can expect major improvement from Williams, McCargo, Ellison, Whitner and Simpson. If Youboty comes through, we just might be better than expected.

DE- Hargrove makes us deeper but not better- Same

DT- slightly improved if Walker comes in, but this group is in need of dramatic improvement. People around here are giving John McCargo WAY too much credit. He was average at best last year and he didn't get any better sitting around. nursing an injury. Mild improvement.

LB- Depth is clearly worse. We lost Spikes' and Fletcher's experience. I think our starters have the potential to be better but they have a lot to prove yet. Ellison is overrated- he was playing cuz we had a lot of injuries and a lot of crap at the position- not because he's so great. I have to go with Worse on this one.

CB- Clearly worse. McGee has struggled and K. Thomas and Youboty are nowhere near Clements' level. Youboty may end up being great for us, but on Week 1 of 2007 he is nowhere near as good as Nate Clements.

S- this is the one position where we should be better after Whitner and Simpson have had a whole year in the NFL. At the very least, it will be the same.

[patmoran2006]

When it comes to the DL, both DE and DT.. being the "same" is not good enough.

[Jan Reimers]

How is the D-line the same with the addition of Walker and a healthy McCargo?

And how do we not improve with key 5 guys making the jump from rookie to second year?

[Jan Reimers]

Oh, and I guess that we should have hung onto Spikes and Fletcher until they were buzzing around in their motorized wheel chairs.

[John Doe]

For the record. Spikes had like a team-high dozen tackles in the Bills final game at Baltimore and for the first time since his injury, looked comfortable and free moving in space.


Spikes looked good in run support for the first time in 2 years.

He did not look good defending the pass



Ellison played great for a rookie CONSIDERING he was a late-round pick.. If he had been a second or third rounder his play would've been expected. But while he was productive (for a rookie) he has a long way to go to evolve into a quality NFL starter. We'll have to see if he becomes any kind of impact player.

Near the end of last season, Ellison played like a quality starter regardless of his draft status.

He was certainly an impact player in the second Dophins game.

[Goobylal]

Spikes looked good in run support for the first time in 2 years.

He did not look good defending the pass
He got schooled in the Titans game, and the Ravens had a lousy running game.


Near the end of last season, Ellison played like a quality starter regardless of his draft status.

He was certainly an impact player in the second Dophins game.
Yep and with a year to add bulk, strength, and knowledge, he'll be a big-time player.

As for the DB's, the cover-2 doesn't rely on them. I'm looking for improvement from Whitner and Simpson more than anything.

[Night Train]

Offense better and Defense to be determined.

Clements was a loss at CB but not nearly the impact people are making it out to be. Spikes was limping around when he actually played, getting washed out on sweeps and Fletcher was dragging down runners well after the LOS. A healthy Crowell and Poz can only improve that aspect.

McCargo mends and goes to the 1 gap. Bills still trying to find a run stuffer to rotate with him. Darwin Walker will get his $$ and help the 3 gap rotation with Triplett. DE's stay the same with Schobel, Kelsay, Denney & Hargrove.

Fewell needs to find ways to get the LB's or CB's to blitz more. With the Safeties playing deep, they can sneak Whitner up for coverage responsibilities while a CB takes a direct line for the QB.

It's also year 2 of playing in this D for most everyone. I'll give them a shot at getting better.

[Goobylal]

Offense better and Defense to be determined.

Clements was a loss at CB but not nearly the impact people are making it out to be. Spikes was limping around when he actually played, getting washed out on sweeps and Fletcher was dragging down runners well after the LOS. A healthy Crowell and Poz can only improve that aspect.

McCargo mends and goes to the 1 gap. Bills still trying to find a run stuffer to rotate with him. Darwin Walker will get his $$ and help the 3 gap rotation with Triplett. DE's stay the same with Schobel, Kelsay, Denney & Hargrove.

Fewell needs to find ways to get the LB's or CB's to blitz more. With the Safeties playing deep, they can sneak Whitner up for coverage responsibilities while a CB takes a direct line for the QB.

It's also year 2 of playing in this D for most everyone. I'll give them a shot at getting better.
Thanks for backing-up what I've been saying. And the run stuffer rotating with McCargo will be Kyle Williams.

[OpIv37]

How is the D-line the same with the addition of Walker and a healthy McCargo?

And how do we not improve with key 5 guys making the jump from rookie to second year?

first, we don't know if Walker is going to come to camp yet. Second, we sucked when we had McCargo at the beginning of the year and he's not going to get better sitting around nursing an injury. Third, even if Walker does come to camp, he's more of a pass rusher and won't help the run D significantly. Fourth, one year of improvement- even first year to second year- is not NEARLY enough to compensate for the loss of 3 starters PLUS improve on the 28th ranked run D.

I can't believe people are trying to realistically argue that one year of improvement from rookies is all it takes to improve the horrid run D and cover the loss of all our starters. That is a completely unrealistic expectation.

[Goobylal]

first, we don't know if Walker is going to come to camp yet. Second, we sucked when we had McCargo at the beginning of the year and he's not going to get better sitting around nursing an injury. Third, even if Walker does come to camp, he's more of a pass rusher and won't help the run D significantly. Fourth, one year of improvement- even first year to second year- is not NEARLY enough to compensate for the loss of 3 starters PLUS improve on the 28th ranked run D.

I can't believe people are trying to realistically argue that one year of improvement from rookies is all it takes to improve the horrid run D and cover the loss of all our starters. That is a completely unrealistic expectation.
No more unrealistic than your expectation that McCargo as a rookie was supposed to make an immediate impact in his first 4-1/2 games. It usually takes DT's awhile to finally get it.

And apparently you've never heard Marv's saying that a player improves the most between his rookie and his 2nd years.

And Walker will show up. Both sides knew he wanted a new deal. The Bills are just taking longer than Walker and his agent thought they would.

[OpIv37]

No more unrealistic than your expectation that McCargo as a rookie was supposed to make an immediate impact in his first 4-1/2 games. It usually takes DT's awhile to finally get it.

And apparently you've never heard Marv's saying that a player improves the most between his rookie and his 2nd years.

And Walker will show up. Both sides knew he wanted a new deal. The Bills are just taking longer than Walker and his agent thought they would.

You just contradicted yourself- how is McCargo going to get better between his first and second games when he DIDN'T PLAY? At least at the start of the season, he's going to be the same McCargo that didn't make an impact last year.

And it's completely unrealistic to expect one year of improvement to compensate for the loss of 3 starters AND improve the 28th ranked run D. That's just not going to happen. It's complete homerism to think that the D got better by losing guys and adding only Walker (maybe) and Poz because of some comment Marv made about improvement.

[raphael120]

When you are surrounded by turds and you want to build from within, youre building a hut made out of turds. I bet you all my zone bucks our backups from seasons past will NOT get any better or step up in any reguard. Namely:

Roscoe, McGee, A.Train, Stamer, Wire, Haggan, Price even, and all those scrub LB's we brought in towards the end of last season...you're relying on a lot of career backups to suddenly be good enough to be starters to really make this thing work. I think there will be regression before it gets any better. See our passing D to do better because of our safeties, and our corners doing just enough to not get embarrassed, but i feel our D-line is going to bottom out, and our LB core will be struggling, based on the fact that the only vet we have is only 4 years into the game, Crowell, and he is no more than just "adequate" at the position. Ive never heard Crowell called a game changing force like TKO and to an extent, Fletcher... fletch had some good INT's last season to seal up some games, and also to give an edge to the offense.

I'd appreciate appropriate, intellegent responses to this debatable subject. Thanks!

[Goobylal]

You just contradicted yourself- how is McCargo going to get better between his first and second games when he DIDN'T PLAY? At least at the start of the season, he's going to be the same McCargo that didn't make an impact last year.

And it's completely unrealistic to expect one year of improvement to compensate for the loss of 3 starters AND improve the 28th ranked run D. That's just not going to happen. It's complete homerism to think that the D got better by losing guys and adding only Walker (maybe) and Poz because of some comment Marv made about improvement.
You can get better even if you don't play in all the games (although I'd agree that McCargo would be farther along had he played all season). He'll have been in the strength and conditioning program for over a year, meaning he'll be stronger and have better stamina, and he'll also have had a full year to learn the defense, both of which apply to ALL the rookies. That's what Marv is talking about mostly. To think there will be no improvement from the rookies, as well as the other players in their 2nd seasons in a new defense, is unreal.

[Goobylal]

When you are surrounded by turds and you want to build from within, youre building a hut made out of turds. I bet you all my zone bucks our backups from seasons past will NOT get any better or step up in any reguard. Namely:

Roscoe, McGee, A.Train, Stamer, Wire, Haggan, Price even, and all those scrub LB's we brought in towards the end of last season...you're relying on a lot of career backups to suddenly be good enough to be starters to really make this thing work.
Who is expecting anyone of those guys, outside of McGee and Price, to be starters? And what makes you so certain McGee and Price won't be better in the 2nd years in their new systems?

[OpIv37]

You can get better even if you don't play in all the games (although I'd agree that McCargo would be farther along had he played all season). He'll have been in the strength and conditioning program for over a year, meaning he'll be stronger and have better stamina, and he'll also have had a full year to learn the defense, both of which apply to ALL the rookies. That's what Marv is talking about mostly. To think there will be no improvement from the rookies, as well as the other players in their 2nd seasons in a new defense, is unreal.

I never said there won't be any improvement- I said there won't be enough improvement to compensate for both the defense's deficiencies last year and the loss of 3 starters. Our D has a LONG way to go and improvement from the same guys plus Poz and Walker (maybe) isn't enough.

[John Doe]

When you are surrounded by turds and you want to build from within, youre building a hut made out of turds. I bet you all my zone bucks our backups from seasons past will NOT get any better or step up in any reguard. Namely:

Roscoe, McGee, A.Train, Stamer, Wire, Haggan, Price even, and all those scrub LB's we brought in towards the end of last season...you're relying on a lot of career backups to suddenly be good enough to be starters to really make this thing work. I think there will be regression before it gets any better. See our passing D to do better because of our safeties, and our corners doing just enough to not get embarrassed, but i feel our D-line is going to bottom out, and our LB core will be struggling, based on the fact that the only vet we have is only 4 years into the game, Crowell, and he is no more than just "adequate" at the position. Ive never heard Crowell called a game changing force like TKO and to an extent, Fletcher... fletch had some good INT's last season to seal up some games, and also to give an edge to the offense.

I'd appreciate appropriate, intellegent responses to this debatable subject. Thanks!

Roscoe Parrish is entering his 3rd year. His 2nd year stats were better than his 1st year. I expect that his 3rd year will improve over his 2nd.

McGee had a hard time adjusting to the "cover 2." After sitting and learning, he came back and played better.

A-train is a solid depth at number 2 or 3 running back - no one is asking anything else from him. We drafted 2 guys to play ahead of him.

Wire found a niche last year as a backup linebacker. He is a great special teamer and gives some depth - that is what most teams ask of their backup linebackers.

Haggan is a great specal teamer - that is his stock in trade.

Price had a decent season last year including 2 game winning catches. His stats would probably be better if the team threw the ball more - Losman had one of the best completion percentages in the league because guys other than Lee Evans were getting open and catching the ball.

Crowell played very good football when Spikes went down in 2005 and before he got injured himself last year. If you don't believe that then you were not watching the same games that I was. Spikes has not been a "game changer" for 2 years.

If there were ever a rookie linebacker that is suited to come in and play well right away, that would be Posluszny. If he can play as well as Zack Thomas did in his rookie year, we will be fine.

Ellison had a great rookie year - he was an impact player in the second Miami game. I expect him to play even better this year.

[OpIv37]

Roscoe Parrish is entering his 3rd year. His 2nd year stats were better than his 1st year. I expect that his 3rd year will improve over his 2nd.

McGee had a hard time adjusting to the "cover 2." After sitting and learning, he came back and played better.

A-train is a solid depth at number 2 or 3 running back - no one is asking anything else from him. We drafted 2 guys to play ahead of him.

Wire found a niche last year as a backup linebacker. He is a great special teamer and gives some depth - that is what most teams ask of their backup linebackers.

Haggan is a great specal teamer - that is his stock in trade.

Price had a decent season last year including 2 game winning catches. His stats would probably be better if the team threw the ball more - Losman had one of the best completion percentages in the league because guys other than Lee Evans were getting open and catching the ball.

Crowell played very good football when Spikes went down in 2005 and before he got injured himself last year. If you don't believe that then you were not watching the same games that I was. Spikes has not been a "game changer" for 2 years.

If there were ever a rookie linebacker that is suited to come in and play well right away, that would be Posluszny. If he can play as well as Zack Thomas did in his rookie year, we will be fine.

Ellison had a great rookie year - he was an impact player in the second Miami game. I expect him to play even better this year.

Parrish is at best a 3rd WR and a ST'er. He needs the ball in space to be effective- he's useless in traffic.

McGee has played bad in 2 of his 3 seasons at CB- his only decent year was '05. has he made the adjustment? Maybe, but I wouldn't count on it.

A-train- I agree with what you said- he's a solid back up.

Wire sucks at S and sucks at LB, even as depth. His only contribution is on ST. I don't know why this guy is immune from accountability.

Haggan- agree that he's good at ST but we need someone who's good at LB too.

Price will NEVER be a solid #2 again- he's a #3 at best, and that would be fine if we weren't trying to use him as a #2.

Crowell has been decent for us but he has never shown himself to be the playmaker that Spikes once was. Is he better than Spikes NOW? That depends on whether or not Spikes rebounds from his injury so we really don't know yet.

I think Poz will be good for us but I don't think he's ready to step right in and take over Fletcher's leadership role on D. That's not a knock on him specifically- it just takes time to catch up to the speed of the NFL and evolve into that role.

Ellison- being an impact player in ONE GAME is not the same as being an impact player. Darrick Holmes was an impact player in 2 games for us before he dropped off the face of the earth. Ellison proved to be average but he has to improve because average won't get the job done.

[Goobylal]

Crowell has been decent for us but he has never shown himself to be the playmaker that Spikes once was. Is he better than Spikes NOW? That depends on whether or not Spikes rebounds from his injury so we really don't know yet.
You seem to be sure of everything else. Yet somehow you waffle on this issue, knowing the history of Achilles injuries. Or maybe you don't?

Suffice it to say, Spikes will never be the player he once was.

[OpIv37]

You seem to be sure of everything else. Yet somehow you waffle on this issue, knowing the history of Achilles injuries. Or maybe you don't?

Suffice it to say, Spikes will never be the player he once was.

funny how everyone around here seemed to think the opposite when he was still on the team.

Spikes may never be the player he once was, but that doesn't mean he won't be significantly better than he was last season now that he's fully recovered. We won't know until he hits the field this year.

And Crowell has never been the player that Spikes once was either.

[Goobylal]

funny how everyone around here seemed to think the opposite when he was still on the team.
Don't count me in that statement. When he suffered his Achilles, I wrote him off. I saw a glimmer in the season opener against the Pats (and even overlooked the fact that he should have been called for a facemask on his sack of Brady), but seeing him being lost for several games and playing like a shell of his former self made me realize he was done. Achilles injuries are devastating for guys who rely on their legs, much less guys on the wrong side of 30.

Spikes may never be the player he once was, but that doesn't mean he won't be significantly better than he was last season now that he's fully recovered. We won't know until he hits the field this year.

And Crowell has never been the player that Spikes once was either.
Spikes was a great player, but he's not getting any younger or healthier. Keeping him because he WAS a great player and you HOPE he'll get better isn't valid reasoning. Moreover, he's not a fit for the cover-2.

[OpIv37]

Don't count me in that statement. When he suffered his Achilles, I wrote him off. I saw a glimmer in the season opener against the Pats (and even overlooked the fact that he should have been called for a facemask on his sack of Brady), but seeing him being lost for several games and playing like a shell of his former self made me realize he was done. Achilles injuries are devastating for guys who rely on their legs, much less guys on the wrong side of 30.

Spikes was a great player, but he's not getting any younger or healthier. Keeping him because he WAS a great player and you HOPE he'll get better isn't valid reasoning. Moreover, he's not a fit for the cover-2.

however, keeping him because we have horrible LB's is a valid reason. Drafting Poz makes it a little less dire, but we're one injury away from disaster. Despite being hobbled and a bad fit for the cover 2 (according to you, anyway), he's still better than Stamer, Haggan, Wire or Digiorgio.

Anyway, it's irrelevant because Spikes is gone- the fact remains that our LB's are inexperienced, unproven (except maybe Crowell) and completely lacking in depth. At this point there is no way to argue they are improved over last year.

[Night Train]

And the run stuffer rotating with McCargo will be Kyle Williams.

Only if he hit the weight room. Despite his media darling status, he was pushed around with relative ease last season, unable to anchor. He has a lot to prove.

[Goobylal]

however, keeping him because we have horrible LB's is a valid reason. Drafting Poz makes it a little less dire, but we're one injury away from disaster. Despite being hobbled and a bad fit for the cover 2 (according to you, anyway), he's still better than Stamer, Haggan, Wire or Digiorgio.
Please, don't take MY word that Fletch is a bad fit for the cover-2. Take the actions of Marv and co. as proof, seeing as how they didn't even bother offering him a contract. And as for the Bills having "horrible LB's," that's your opinion, to which you are entitled.


Anyway, it's irrelevant because Spikes is gone- the fact remains that our LB's are inexperienced, unproven (except maybe Crowell) and completely lacking in depth. At this point there is no way to argue they are improved over last year.
Realistically, the Bills are at least a year away from contending. Spikes and Fletch aren't long-term answers, if not bad ill-suited for the cover-2 (again, going by the actions of the Bills).

[Goobylal]

Only if he hit the weight room. Despite his media darling status, he was pushed around with relative ease last season, unable to anchor. He has a lot to prove.
A rookie getting pushed around is no big surprise. And I have zero doubts that KW hit the weights this past off-season.

[OpIv37]

Realistically, the Bills are at least a year away from contending. Spikes and Fletch aren't long-term answers, if not bad ill-suited for the cover-2 (again, going by the actions of the Bills).

now this I can agree with, but a lot of people around here are talking like the D is ready to step up now when it clearly isn't.

[Goobylal]

The topic of the thread was whether the offense and defense will be better. I don't recall it asking if either would be tops in the league.

[OpIv37]

The topic of the thread was whether the offense and defense will be better. I don't recall it asking if either would be tops in the league.

I have a hard time seeing how the D could be better- I could maybe see the moves we made paying off in a year or two, and I could maybe see some mild improvement this year (which I guess technically constitutes "better"). But it's just as easy to see how this D could take a step back this year.

[Goobylal]

Just think of this, Op: the Bills didn't even care to offer Fletch a contract, and they dealt Spikes. It's not like both were UFA's who the Bills couldn't afford. The Bills thought they were expendable.

Now Clements was a loss, but he was sorely overpaid and only has had half a good season out of the past 2. Like MgGahee, "the playmaker" had an overly-inflated opinion of himself and didn't consistently show-up. You could view them allowing him to leave (again, they could have kept him) as getting rid of the old regime "me" guys.