Refuting some homeristic misconceptions

[OpIv37]

There are some inaccuracies that are constantly being repeated around here as though they are common knowledge, so it's time for a reality check.

1. The DL will be better with John McCargo

The truth is McCargo will probably improve over the course of the year. But he didn't have an impact as a rookie and then he missed most of the year with an injury. It's unrealistic to expect this guy to come in as anything better than what he was when he left. Will he improve? Probably, but don't expect much out of him in Week 1 (or even Week 8) of 2007.

2. Our D will be better because the rookies will improve, and Marv said that the biggest improvement is between years one and two.

This isn't really a homeristic statement. There is a lot of truth to it. It becomes homeristic when people think that the improvement of 5 guys from years 1-2 is enough to improve on the 28th ranked run D AND simultaneously compensate for the loss of 3 starters. That's simply not realistic.

3. We won't miss Nate Clements because "shut down" CB's aren't necessary in the Cover 2 and Nate is overrated.

Again, there is some basis to this statement- Clements is overrated and not worth the money he got. And the Cover 2 doesn't really require top-notch CB's. But Kiwaukee Thomas is a 7 year vet with ZERO career INT's, and Ashton Youboty has played 1 game at nickel. Clements, despite his flaws, is better than both of them. Could Youboty eventually be a viable starter and maybe even better than Clements? Of course it's possible, but it's unrealistic to expect this on Week 1 of 2007.

4. Fletcher was past is prime and Poz can easily replace him.

I was critical of Fletch last year and he does have a tendency to make a lot of tackles AFTER 5 yard gains, etc. So it's not unreasonable to expect a younger guy to be able to equal his production. However, Fletcher was the defensive leader of this team and that is a position that takes time to learn. This is not a knock on Poz, but it is unrealistic to expect him to come in and play that role as a rookie.

5. This one isn't so much about a specific statement as it is a general trend of defending mediocre or underachieving players. Don't believe me? Pick a player and start a thread bashing him- Price, Reed, Tripplett, Wire, Kelsay, Denney, Royal, Everett, Parrish, McGee etc, and at least 3 people will respond defending the player. Now, don't get me wrong- I'm not saying all these guys should be cut, but they're all guys who have underperformed yet continue to get support. Someone please explain this to me: If no one on our team sucks, why can't we win? I don't know why people continue to defend mediocrity then wonder why we always get mediocre results on the field.

[Devin]

Linemen, especially DT's, often take 3-4 years to develop. Anyone who thought McCargo was gonna be a difference maker this year much less his rookie season plays to much madden. I expect he will continue to improve and probably become a solid DT in a few years. Anything more/sooner is a bonus.

Our defense this year I do expect to be better then last year but id say middle of the road/average is about the best you can expect. And thats fine because our backfield and offense is being built to control the clock. Hopefully our O is on the field a lot more often then our D. I think we maybe at a "juuuuuust enough" defense.

The cover 2 requires different CB's, the statement that they dont require good cb's or that they can get by with average CB's is simply made by people who dont know the game. While they may not be the most important position on the field in this scheme if this theory is true then we should be absolutley 100% comfortable with anyone playing CB.

Agreed. Fletch didnt fit the scheme, and on the field I dont expect a huge dropoff from Poz. However in the lockeroom and on the field as a leader the Bills will really need someone to step up and fill the gap left by Fletch.

To me its not the bashing of a player thats irritating. Its guys like Pat who make a hobby of it. Ok I get it you dont like Ralph, you think Levy is a bad GM and you and only you are qualified to run the team. And your little blogs are pulitzer winning material. Super. Its been noted, 20 threads a week reiterating all this vomit is not needed. I cant speak for everyone but we are fans, and ragardless of our varying opinions at the end of the day we all want the Bills to win.

[OpIv37]

Linemen, especially DT's, often take 3-4 years to develop. Anyone who thought McCargo was gonna be a difference maker this year much less his rookie season plays to much madden. I expect he will continue to improve and probably become a solid DT in a few years.

Our defense this year I do expect to be better then last year but id say middle of the road/average is about the best you can expect. And thats fine because our backfield and offense is being built to control the clock. Hopefully our O is on the field a lot more often then our D.

The cover 2 requires different CB's, the statement that they dont require good cb's or that they can get by with average CB's is simply made by people who dont know the game. While they may not be the most important position on the field in this scheme if this theory is true then we should be absolutley 100% comfortable with anyone playing CB.

Agreed. Fletch didnt fit the scheme, and on the field I dont expect a huge dropoff from Poz. However in the lockeroom and on the field as a leader the Bills will really need someone to step up and fill the gap left by Fletch.

To me its not the bashing of a player thats irritating. Its guys like Pat who make a hobby of it. Ok I get it you dont like Ralph, you think Levy is a bad GM and you and only you are qualified to run the team. And your little blogs are pulitzer winning material. Super. Its been noted, 20 threads a week reiterating all this vomit is not needed. I cant speak for everyone but we are fans, and ragardless of our varying opinions at the end of the day we all want the Bills to win.

I have to ask- why exactly do you think our D will be better with virtually the same DL, inexperienced LB's, questionable CB's and the same S's?

[Devin]

I have to ask- why exactly do you think our D will be better with virtually the same DL, inexperienced LB's, questionable CB's and the same S's?

Firstly I think our safety duo will perform better, I think Youboty is gonna be average at best but he appears to fit the mold of the cover 2 CB. McGee to me is the wildcard. Hes undersize and his struggles last year I believe were directly tied to the system he played in. Hes small and not strong enough to jam WR's which often led to Ko being hung out to dry. Hopefully he rebounds this year.

Poz imo will be a better fit for us at LB then Fletch. I think he will have rookie struggles but he is such a smart, instinctual player he will not only catch on quick but I just have the feeling he will anchor the middle well. Crowell has steadily improved every year and I maybe alone on this but I truly think Ellison will evolve into a fine weakside guy.

As far as our line goes I can only hope Williams/McCargo have a better second year. Not that they played bad per say but just another year of experience...etc will hopefully improve their play even if it is only marginally. If this Walker mess gets sorted I think he is a decent penetrating DT who in a rotational system could very well thrive.

All in all we of course arent gonna be a top rated D, but I wouldnt say its unreasonable to think we could be ranked as high as the low teens or so.

Course anything could happen.

[feelthepain]

Firstly I think our safety duo will perform better, I think Youboty is gonna be average at best but he appears to fit the mold of the cover 2 CB. McGee to me is the wildcard. Hes undersize and his struggles last year I believe were directly tied to the system he played in. Hes small and not strong enough to jam WR's which often led to Ko being hung out to dry. Hopefully he rebounds this year.

Poz imo will be a better fit for us at LB then Fletch. I think he will have rookie struggles but he is such a smart, instinctual player he will not only catch on quick but I just have the feeling he will anchor the middle well. Crowell has steadily improved every year and I maybe alone on this but I truly think Ellison will evolve into a fine weakside guy.

As far as our line goes I can only hope Williams/McCargo have a better second year. Not that they played bad per say but just another year of experience...etc will hopefully improve their play even if it is only marginally. If this Walker mess gets sorted I think he is a decent penetrating DT who in a rotational system could very well thrive.

All in all we of course arent gonna be a top rated D, but I wouldnt say its unreasonable to think we could be ranked as high as the low teens or so.

Course anything could happen.

I think this is an extremely optimistic view, but as you say anything can happen.

[X-Era]

Comments in red


There are some inaccuracies that are constantly being repeated around here as though they are common knowledge, so it's time for a reality check.

1. The DL will be better with John McCargo

The truth is McCargo will probably improve over the course of the year. But he didn't have an impact as a rookie and then he missed most of the year with an injury. It's unrealistic to expect this guy to come in as anything better than what he was when he left. Will he improve? Probably, but don't expect much out of him in Week 1 (or even Week 8) of 2007.

Thats not whats at issue. Whats at issue is that McCargo is better than what we had before him, thats a true statement. Whether McCargo lived up to his billing in year one or not is also not at issue. McCargo should be better than last year and hopefully will stay injury free. Overall, its at least a push with a good possibility to be better.

2. Our D will be better because the rookies will improve, and Marv said that the biggest improvement is between years one and two.

This isn't really a homeristic statement. There is a lot of truth to it. It becomes homeristic when people think that the improvement of 5 guys from years 1-2 is enough to improve on the 28th ranked run D AND simultaneously compensate for the loss of 3 starters. That's simply not realistic.

On the surface you would appear to be right. However, we must look at the vets that left. Doing so means that you must consider what Fletcher, Spikes, and Clements were worth. Well, Fletcher was a tackling machine. But he was also dragged for extra yards due to his size limitations. He just wasnt able to make stops consistently at the line of scrimmage; most of his yards came after several yards were gained. I said from day one that without real run stuffing fat guys in front of him, hes a liability vs. the run. Adding a true MLB will make us a stronger run D IMO. Spikes was injured and never really came back, he simply wasnt 100%. We traded him and really we traded damaged goods IMO. To me Crowell was our best all around LB out of the three and now we get him back. Ellison played decent, certainly not all pro, but solid enough to start. Overall, I think our LB corp is better by subracting a run liability, and a damaged LB. The Clements issue I will address later.

3. We won't miss Nate Clements because "shut down" CB's aren't necessary in the Cover 2 and Nate is overrated.

Again, there is some basis to this statement- Clements is overrated and not worth the money he got. And the Cover 2 doesn't really require top-notch CB's. But Kiwaukee Thomas is a 7 year vet with ZERO career INT's, and Ashton Youboty has played 1 game at nickel. Clements, despite his flaws, is better than both of them. Could Youboty eventually be a viable starter and maybe even better than Clements? Of course it's possible, but it's unrealistic to expect this on Week 1 of 2007.

You will never catch me saying this. Clements on a good day was one of the best CB's if not the best to ever come through Buffalo. He is a loss, and that will have consequences for sure. However, if we can stop the run more effectively, I think we win more games than if we still had Clements. We will give up big plays, and it will hurt. But stopping the run is an age old way to win, and I feel strong we will be much better. Besides, does any team ever NOT have any significant losses during the offseason?

4. Fletcher was past is prime and Poz can easily replace him.

I was critical of Fletch last year and he does have a tendency to make a lot of tackles AFTER 5 yard gains, etc. So it's not unreasonable to expect a younger guy to be able to equal his production. However, Fletcher was the defensive leader of this team and that is a position that takes time to learn. This is not a knock on Poz, but it is unrealistic to expect him to come in and play that role as a rookie.

Fletch was not past his prime, what he was was an undersized LB who is a run liability when you have smaller faster D-linemen. The scheme change requires a change at MLB. Puz doesnt need to be the leader, Crowell can do that. Puz needs to come in and play solid at the line, I think he will do that.

5. This one isn't so much about a specific statement as it is a general trend of defending mediocre or underachieving players. Don't believe me? Pick a player and start a thread bashing him- Price, Reed, Tripplett, Wire, Kelsay, Denney, Royal, Everett, Parrish, McGee etc, and at least 3 people will respond defending the player. Now, don't get me wrong- I'm not saying all these guys should be cut, but they're all guys who have underperformed yet continue to get support. Someone please explain this to me: If no one on our team sucks, why can't we win? I don't know why people continue to defend mediocrity then wonder why we always get mediocre results on the field.
If your comment here is that we need a few stars, I agree for sure. We do. We have needed that for years. Most of the leagues best teams have at least one player in the top 10 in their stat field. We usually have none. Now, I truly think Lynch can become that type of player, and now that we have finally settled on a QB and that QB has a year under his belt, I expect to see even more from Evans. Marv and Co want to go the homegrown route. That leaves fans who want immediate gratification with a bad taste in their mouths.

[Jan Reimers]

Geez, I'll probably just give up my season tickets. I can see now that there is no hope.

Op, how the Hell do you come up with so much negative crap all the time?

[gr8slayer]

Linemen, especially DT's, often take 3-4 years to develop. Anyone who thought McCargo was gonna be a difference maker this year much less his rookie season plays to much madden. I expect he will continue to improve and probably become a solid DT in a few years. Anything more/sooner is a bonus.

Our defense this year I do expect to be better then last year but id say middle of the road/average is about the best you can expect. And thats fine because our backfield and offense is being built to control the clock. Hopefully our O is on the field a lot more often then our D. I think we maybe at a "juuuuuust enough" defense.

The cover 2 requires different CB's, the statement that they dont require good cb's or that they can get by with average CB's is simply made by people who dont know the game. While they may not be the most important position on the field in this scheme if this theory is true then we should be absolutley 100% comfortable with anyone playing CB.

Agreed. Fletch didnt fit the scheme, and on the field I dont expect a huge dropoff from Poz. However in the lockeroom and on the field as a leader the Bills will really need someone to step up and fill the gap left by Fletch.

To me its not the bashing of a player thats irritating. Its guys like Pat who make a hobby of it. Ok I get it you dont like Ralph, you think Levy is a bad GM and you and only you are qualified to run the team. And your little blogs are pulitzer winning material. Super. Its been noted, 20 threads a week reiterating all this vomit is not needed. I cant speak for everyone but we are fans, and ragardless of our varying opinions at the end of the day we all want the Bills to win.I know the game just fine. I played in the same Defense we are playing now in college. It simply doesn't require an all-star CB. It's a fact.

[casdhf]

Op, you were pissing and moaning when we had these guys on the roster. Now that they're gone, you're still pissing and moaning. I think you're a reverse homer.

[The Spaz]

Why bother being a fan...:shakeno:

[OpIv37]

Geez, I'll probably just give up my season tickets. I can see now that there is no hope.

Op, how the Hell do you come up with so much negative crap all the time?

crap? Tell me what I said that wasn't true. People around here are grasping at straws for reasons to think that the D isn't going to suck, but those people do not have a realistic grasp of the situation.

[OpIv37]

Op, you were pissing and moaning when we had these guys on the roster. Now that they're gone, you're still pissing and moaning. I think you're a reverse homer.

Um, first, you're exaggerating about how much I "pissed and moaned" about these guys. I was pretty rough on Clements but mainly because I thought he was terrible value for the money he was going to get, and at times I criticized Fletch but I definitely never said anything bad about Spikes.

Second, you seem to be one of the many people around here suffering from the misconception that different is automatically better. Getting rid of underperforming players is half the equation- the other half is replacing them with BETTER players and we've failed miserably in this regard.

[OpIv37]

Comments in red


If your comment here is that we need a few stars, I agree for sure. We do. We have needed that for years. Most of the leagues best teams have at least one player in the top 10 in their stat field. We usually have none. Now, I truly think Lynch can become that type of player, and now that we have finally settled on a QB and that QB has a year under his belt, I expect to see even more from Evans. Marv and Co want to go the homegrown route. That leaves fans who want immediate gratification with a bad taste in their mouths.

two things- first, when you discussed Clements, you said we might be able to get by if we were better at stopping the run- how are we going to do that when the only changes are Darwin Walker and an inexperienced McCargo.

Second, there is an inherent problem with the homegrown route: contracts expire and players leave the team, or players get older and move past their prime. There aren't too many players on this team who will be past their prime anytime soon, but the contracts expiring is a huge deal. Hopefully the "cash to cap" philosophy is a short-term strategy to help us mitigate these situations, but at this pace, by the time enough of our holes are filled to be competitive, there will be a whole new set of holes holding us back.

[OpIv37]

Why bother being a fan...:shakeno:

If you're going to defend moves that don't lead to winning and stand up for players who don't help us win, why bother being a fan? The goal is WINS and fans shouldn't accept any moves that don't lead to wins.

[feelthepain]

Geez, I'll probably just give up my season tickets. I can see now that there is no hope.

Op, how the Hell do you come up with so much negative crap all the time?

Yeah OP what's your problem, can't you just act and post like the rest of the Bill fans here and never look at the Bills situation honestly?? I mean come on, don't you want to ignore the facts and post like there isn't a flaw to be found with your team like the rest here?? Geez!!

[ScottLawrence]

I think you have to look at our run defense/defense overall prior to McCargos injury.

We certainly struggled in our first game stopping the run as we let up 183 yards on 41 attempts.

In Miami we let up 92 rushing yards overall and against the Jets, we gave up 74 yards on the ground.

Against Minnesota we had our best game of the year defensively IMO giving up only 64 rushing yards and I particularly recall McCargo beating Steve Hutchinson and stuffing Chester Taylor in the back field for a significant loss.

Thats an average of 103 yards allowed rushing per game which is good for top 10 in the NFL.

So IMO, our rushing defense will be improved(I don't expect top 10 in the NFL, but improved) with the addition/return of McCargo and the adding of Walker(Assuming we get him a new contract) can only help.

[Goobylal]

Being pessimistic is always the easiest tact to take. That way when things don't work out, you can say "see, I told you so!" And if they DO work out, you can say "I'm glad I was wrong."

[Goobylal]

Yeah OP what's your problem, can't you just act and post like the rest of the Bill fans here and never look at the Bills situation honestly?? I mean come on, don't you want to ignore the facts and post like there isn't a flaw to be found with your team like the rest here?? Geez!!
LMMFAO!

All I can say is, oh, the irony! But FTP, let me allow you to prove that you're NOT a huge hypocrite and give us an assessment of your Fins.

[OpIv37]

Being pessimistic is always the easiest tact to take. That way when things don't work out, you can say "see, I told you so!" And if they DO work out, you can say "I'm glad I was wrong."

actually, you got it backwards- if I'm right, we lose and I'm ****ing sick of losing. I can't even brag about being right because it's taking glory in losing. And if we win, I have to take **** for being wrong (which is still preferable to losing).

[OpIv37]

I think you have to look at our run defense/defense overall prior to McCargos injury.

We certainly struggled in our first game stopping the run as we let up 183 yards on 41 attempts.

In Miami we let up 92 rushing yards overall and against the Jets, we gave up 74 yards on the ground.

Against Minnesota we had our best game of the year defensively IMO giving up only 64 rushing yards and I particularly recall McCargo beating Steve Hutchinson and stuffing Chester Taylor in the back field for a significant loss.

Thats an average of 103 yards allowed rushing per game which is good for top 10 in the NFL.

So IMO, our rushing defense will be improved(I don't expect top 10 in the NFL, but improved) with the addition/return of McCargo and the adding of Walker(Assuming we get him a new contract) can only help.

I'm not saying there won't be any improvement, but our run D was 28th last year- that's pretty sad. And our LB's- who do support the run in the C2, are inexperienced as well. So, to expect this D to somehow be competitive just because of McCargo is unrealistic. We might go from 28th against the run to 22nd or 23rd.

[Mitchy moo]

Op, how the Hell do you come up with so much negative crap all the time?

He hasn't sought help yet, prozac or some other anti-depressant would help.

[OpIv37]

He hasn't sought help yet, prozac or some other anti-depressant would help.

well if you can't see these problems with the team, you need some anti-psychotics or whatever they give to schizophrenics because you're not living in the real world.

[Goobylal]

I'm not saying there won't be any improvement, but our run D was 28th last year- that's pretty sad. And our LB's- who do support the run in the C2, are inexperienced as well. So, to expect this D to somehow be competitive just because of McCargo is unrealistic. We might go from 28th against the run to 22nd or 23rd.
Where are you getting that anyone has said that the defense will improve "just because of McCargo?" And I also sense that you think that I or others have said that the defense will be great this year. I didn't; I merely said it would be better, after getting out some hiccups early in the season.

[KMA]

Linemen, especially DT's, often take 3-4 years to develop.
Developing is one thing. Showing a little something is entirely another.

The theme often seems to be that a player can come in and stink the joing up for two or three seasons and then all of a sudden bust out and become Warren Sapp of old because it is magically the fourth season.

Players improve gradually usually, not by scaling a cliff of performance from the end of one season to the beginning of the next.

And how do you explain Tripplett? He wasn't good and this was his fifth season.

Every time someone like Op raises a question like this, all of these weak defensive statements appear.

It takes three or four seasons for whatever to happen.
You can't tell how good a draft was for three seasons. (PS how good was our '04 draft in hindsight?)
A GM has a long term plan. Many GMs come and create winners in two or three seasons. How many does Levy get in many of your minds? Because at the rate you are talking about here, if we give all the rookies from last year and this one three or four seasons to develop then it will be 2010 or later before we have a good team that can win games.

Evans is a free agent after '09. Schobel will be 34 by then.

Sorry, but you don't have four or five years in the NFL. There needs to be positive trends amongst both players and the team alike, otherwise it's not good.

[BillsFever21]

Geez, I'll probably just give up my season tickets. I can see now that there is no hope.

Op, how the Hell do you come up with so much negative crap all the time?

It is not negative crap. It is just realistic expectations of our team. It was very well thought out and it isn't an unreasonable view for the chances of our team this year.

People with a realistic view of our team can expect circumstances like this. People with a homeristic view of our team that for some reason lives in denial and can't handle the thought of our team maybe not being very good or a player not being very good can't handle it.

Like OP said, if everyone on our team was good and our outlook was so good every year we would have made the playoffs by now or even a SB run by now the way that some people sugarcoat any weakness on our team. For the last 5 years or so every year at this time we have realistic people stating realistic and reasonable odds for our team and the same people blast the statements like there are no chances of it happening and that this is the year for 11 wins. Each year most of that has came true and then it's on to the next year.

You can be a fan and even an optimistic fan and still have realistic views of a weakness on our team or player. Not sugarcoating everything and never admitting any of the bad parts of our team does not make somebody negative or any less of a fan. It realistic views and goals for our team. Some people just can't handle it.

[YardRat]

crap? Tell me what I said that wasn't true. People around here are grasping at straws for reasons to think that the D isn't going to suck, but those people do not have a realistic grasp of the situation.

I wouldn't call it crap, but at this point it is merely speculation.

For all anybody knows...

1. The d-line has just as good a possibility of improving as not. Anybody who says they definitely will, or for you to say they definitely won't is a guess.

2. The defense was ranked 28th WITH Clements, Fletch, and Spikes so what's the difference whether they're here or not? This can go back to the JP vs. Bledsoe or Holcomb argument...A known quantity which leads to failure or an unknown that has the possibility of leading to success. Pick your poison.

3. Nate's a great corner when he wants to be, not so great when he doesn't. Did we drop a level or two in talent with his loss? Most likely but the possibility remains that we don't. Perhaps Youboty, Thomas or whoever might not make some of the pass break-ups or INTs that Clements did, but then again perhaps they won't get burned by Chambers or an unknown TE on the last play of the game either. Again...this remains to be seen.

4. Again back to the JP-Holcomb argument. Known quantity vs. potential. We've stunk with Fletch as MLB, we can stink without him also. We're not going to get better with London at MLB, regardless of whether he's still in his prime or past it, but we can get better with Poz. Potential.

5. It's been one year in a new offensive and defensive system. All the players you've mentioned, with the exception of Everett and Wire, displayed enough to me last year that they at least earned a second training camp to prove whether or not they're good enough to contribute to the team.

Saying 'I told you so' after the season is one thing...Proclaiming it before training camp has even opened, let alone an actual game being played, is quite another.

[Dr. Lecter]

I notice that you are still doing the same thing you accuse me of; cherry-picking stats. You continue to ignore the Bills having the 10th best scoring defense. You also ignore the potential for an improved running game on offense improving the rushing defense.

[OpIv37]

I wouldn't call it crap, but at this point it is merely speculation.

For all anybody knows...

1. The d-line has just as good a possibility of improving as not. Anybody who says they definitely will, or for you to say they definitely won't is a guess.

2. The defense was ranked 28th WITH Clements, Fletch, and Spikes so what's the difference whether they're here or not? This can go back to the JP vs. Bledsoe or Holcomb argument...A known quantity which leads to failure or an unknown that has the possibility of leading to success. Pick your poison.

3. Nate's a great corner when he wants to be, not so great when he doesn't. Did we drop a level or two in talent with his loss? Most likely but the possibility remains that we don't. Perhaps Youboty, Thomas or whoever might not make some of the pass break-ups or INTs that Clements did, but then again perhaps they won't get burned by Chambers or an unknown TE on the last play of the game either. Again...this remains to be seen.

4. Again back to the JP-Holcomb argument. Known quantity vs. potential. We've stunk with Fletch as MLB, we can stink without him also. We're not going to get better with London at MLB, regardless of whether he's still in his prime or past it, but we can get better with Poz. Potential.

5. It's been one year in a new offensive and defensive system. All the players you've mentioned, with the exception of Everett and Wire, displayed enough to me last year that they at least earned a second training camp to prove whether or not they're good enough to contribute to the team.

Saying 'I told you so' after the season is one thing...Proclaiming it before training camp has even opened, let alone an actual game being played, is quite another.

1. Our DL sucked last year- there is no arguing that- and we've only made minimal changes to it. The chances of our DL improving are, IMO, good. The chances of our DL being good enough, however, are very slim.

2. Different isn't necessarily better. There is potential to be upgraded but there is at least equal potential to be worse. Combine this with the shaky DL.....

3. The possibility that we won't see a drop off at CB is slim to none. CB is one of those positions with a high learning curve and it's unrealistic to expect a guy who couldn't even crack the roster last year to immediately play at Clements' level. He may get there eventually, but who knows how many times he'll get toastd in the meantime?

4. See #2. You can't rely entirely on "potential". Every spot on our D except S has "potential"- no spot (with the exception of Schobel) has a player that has proven he can succeed at the NFL level. So, to have confidence in this D when they've proven NOTHING is wishful thinking. Some of this potential will be realized and some of it won't- deal with it.

5. So, if everyone played well enough to deserve a second chance, how'd we end up 7-9? People put way too much stock in this "system" thing.

I'm not proclaiming anything except that a lot of people here have an unrealistic view on the D's chances for success. Is it possible that all these things could come together and the D could play well, or even play average and skate by with some success by the offense? Of course, but when you consider all these factors, it sure as hell isn't likely. And people need to be aware of that whether they want to admit it or not.

[YardRat]

1. Look who we had on the d-line last year, and what the circumstances were...

Tripplett...New team, new staff, new surrounding cast. His first year, basically.
Williams...A rookie.
McCargo...A rookie, with an injury.
Anderson...well, he's Tim Anderson.
Jefferson...a practice squad player.
Hargrove...See Tripplett without the benefit of being here the entire year plus playing out of position, basically.

2. Actually the potential isn't equal...We only have four spots to move to get worse, 27 to get better. The potential for being better far outweighs being worse.

3. Speculation. He may get burnt a lot, he may not at all. Nobody is right or wrong until the games are played.

4. Under that argument, we might as well have kept Holcomb at QB. If you think Whitner and Simpson don't have the potential to get better and both have played as well as they ever will, I can't help you there. To have a lack of confidence in players that haven't even played is defeatist thinking. I know some of the potential will be realized and some won't, so I have nothing to deal with. Neither you or I or anybody else at this point can specify which ones will or which ones won't though, with any certainty, until it's proven on the field, and these players deserve the chance to prove whether they can play or not before prematurely writing them off...You're going to have to deal with that.

5. 7-9 was where we should have been, considering the circumstances. In the first year of a new administration, a new system, new players including several rookies starting, etc, etc. Some may be putting too much stock in the system, but others are putting too much stock in names. Ask any Pittsburgh LB or Denver RB or any player in New England how important the system is to achieving personal success.

[feelthepain]

1. Our DL sucked last year- there is no arguing that- and we've only made minimal changes to it. The chances of our DL improving are, IMO, good. The chances of our DL being good enough, however, are very slim.

2. Different isn't necessarily better. There is potential to be upgraded but there is at least equal potential to be worse. Combine this with the shaky DL.....

3. The possibility that we won't see a drop off at CB is slim to none. CB is one of those positions with a high learning curve and it's unrealistic to expect a guy who couldn't even crack the roster last year to immediately play at Clements' level. He may get there eventually, but who knows how many times he'll get toastd in the meantime?

4. See #2. You can't rely entirely on "potential". Every spot on our D except S has "potential"- no spot (with the exception of Schobel) has a player that has proven he can succeed at the NFL level. So, to have confidence in this D when they've proven NOTHING is wishful thinking. Some of this potential will be realized and some of it won't- deal with it.

5. So, if everyone played well enough to deserve a second chance, how'd we end up 7-9? People put way too much stock in this "system" thing.

I'm not proclaiming anything except that a lot of people here have an unrealistic view on the D's chances for success. Is it possible that all these things could come together and the D could play well, or even play average and skate by with some success by the offense? Of course, but when you consider all these factors, it sure as hell isn't likely. And people need to be aware of that whether they want to admit it or not.

Hey OP, I went through and thanked you for every post little whinny tatonka groaned at you for. Obviously you either like the Bills and put a positive spin on everything or you're opinion simply isn't welcome here, no matter who you are!! How mature of some Bill fans. Keep up the good posting Bro, I do notice the positive and negative opinions you have of the Bills you simply post like a true fan that has a grasp on your teams situation, much to the dismay of some.

[OpIv37]

1. Look who we had on the d-line last year, and what the circumstances were...

Tripplett...New team, new staff, new surrounding cast. His first year, basically.
Williams...A rookie.
McCargo...A rookie, with an injury.
Anderson...well, he's Tim Anderson.
Jefferson...a practice squad player.
Hargrove...See Tripplett without the benefit of being here the entire year plus playing out of position, basically.

2. Actually the potential isn't equal...We only have four spots to move to get worse, 27 to get better. The potential for being better far outweighs being worse.

3. Speculation. He may get burnt a lot, he may not at all. Nobody is right or wrong until the games are played.

4. Under that argument, we might as well have kept Holcomb at QB. If you think Whitner and Simpson don't have the potential to get better and both have played as well as they ever will, I can't help you there. To have a lack of confidence in players that haven't even played is defeatist thinking. I know some of the potential will be realized and some won't, so I have nothing to deal with. Neither you or I or anybody else at this point can specify which ones will or which ones won't though, with any certainty, until it's proven on the field, and these players deserve the chance to prove whether they can play or not before prematurely writing them off...You're going to have to deal with that.

5. 7-9 was where we should have been, considering the circumstances. In the first year of a new administration, a new system, new players including several rookies starting, etc, etc. Some may be putting too much stock in the system, but others are putting too much stock in names. Ask any Pittsburgh LB or Denver RB or any player in New England how important the system is to achieving personal success.

1. All that **** about Tripplett are exactly the kinds of excuses that piss me off- it's everyone's fault but his. And Anderson and Jefferson are still here, for the moment anyway. So basically the only improvement is 2 rookies and maybe Walker.

2. Better isn't necessarily good enough. If we go from 28th to, say, 23rd, who cares? it still won't be enough to win.

3. Speculation that a 3rd round CB who wasn't even good enough to dress on game day is going to be able to step in for Clements without a drop in play? If you honestly think there is an equal chance not having a drop-off at this position, you're being homeristic and not realistic about this situation.

4. What you're forgetting here is the number of unproven players. ALL we have is potential and the only way this D is serviceable is if ALL that potential is realized, which isn't realistic. You're misrepresenting what I'm saying. I'm not saying players should never be replaced with someone who has more potential- I'm saying that when you do that with the entire ****ing D at the same exact time, don't expect immediate results. This D is at least one season and one good off-season from being good.

5. 7-9 is still not good enough- I don't care how you spin it with rookies and new systems and new administrations and all that. We clearly lacked talent on the field, and no matter who you try to blame for it, someone steps up to defend mediocrity. It's sickening. Being a fan of a team means wanting the team to WIN, and you don't do that by making excuses for players who aren't helping the team win.

[OpIv37]

I notice that you are still doing the same thing you accuse me of; cherry-picking stats. You continue to ignore the Bills having the 10th best scoring defense. You also ignore the potential for an improved running game on offense improving the rushing defense.

First of all, at some point the D has to be on the field no matter how good the O is. You completely ignore this fact. Improved offensive production (which isn't even definite) can only help the D to a certain point.

Second, and more importantly, this isn't fantasy or Madden. Other teams don't give a **** how many points they score as long as they win. If they can control the clock for 40 minutes a game and only score 17 points because they had three 6+ minute drives, but we only score 13, the other team is going to take it every time.

The improved offense only works if the D can actually get off the field, and to get off the field you have to be able to stop the run.

"We fixed the O by fixing the D." Please. Go post that on a football message board that's not run by Bills fans so you can see how ridiculous it sounds to other fans. If a Dolphins fan came on here and said the same thing, we'd tear them a new one.

[gr8slayer]

Hey OP, I went through and thanked you for every post little whinny tatonka groaned at you for. Obviously you either like the Bills and put a positive spin on everything or you're opinion simply isn't welcome here, no matter who you are!! How mature of some Bill fans. Keep up the good posting Bro, I do notice the positive and negative opinions you have of the Bills you simply post like a true fan that has a grasp on your teams situation, much to the dismay of some.
0-2

You can tell us all day long how bad we are. Fact is you are worse off so until you start admitting to your teams flaws you have no credibility.

[OpIv37]

0-2

You can tell us all day long how bad we are. Fact is you are worse off so until you start admitting to your teams flaws you have no credibility.

just because his team is flawed doesn't mean our team isn't, despite what a lot of people here tell themselves.

[gr8slayer]

just because his team is flawed doesn't mean our team isn't, despite what a lot of people here tell themselves.
We are full of flaws, just not as many as the Dolphins.

[feelthepain]

1. Look who we had on the d-line last year, and what the circumstances were...


Tripplett...New team, new staff, new surrounding cast. His first year, basically.

Poor excuse the guy's a veteran what did he possibly have to lean about playing on the line??




Williams...A rookie.
McCargo...A rookie, with an injury.

K, but McCargo is still basically a rookie because he missed most of the year due to injury.



Anderson...well, he's Tim Anderson.
Jefferson...a practice squad player.
Hargrove...See Tripplett without the benefit of being here the entire year plus playing out of position, basically.

Bottom line here, you only added a undersized DT to this rotation, one with weak run stopping skills, the Bills biggest need.


2. Actually the potential isn't equal...We only have four spots to move to get worse, 27 to get better. The potential for being better far outweighs being worse.


I'm not sure I understand this logic, you're team will either be better or they won't. The number of teams in front or behind you have no effect on what your team did to improve (or not) this offseason. All you can do at this point is look at your team and what you've lost and what you've gained, you can't factor in injuries and luck, which both play a big roll in a teams success. By looking at the experience and leadership lost it would be hard to imagine the Bills improved, however that's why they play the game, only time will tell if the Bills improved.


3. Speculation. He may get burnt a lot, he may not at all. Nobody is right or wrong until the games are played.

Everything is speculation at tis point, so why do some Bill fans trash those that look at the teams situation as less then favorable?? Everyone sees things differently, I would think as a fan it's good to have fans that see both sides of the situation to help balance things out, yet for some reason Bill fans like OP seems to get a lot of grief for their opinions, simply because he doesn't think the Bills are stacked at every position, it's a shame.


4. Under that argument, we might as well have kept Holcomb at QB. If you think Whitner and Simpson don't have the potential to get better and both have played as well as they ever will, I can't help you there. To have a lack of confidence in players that haven't even played is defeatist thinking. I know some of the potential will be realized and some won't, so I have nothing to deal with. Neither you or I or anybody else at this point can specify which ones will or which ones won't though, with any certainty, until it's proven on the field, and these players deserve the chance to prove whether they can play or not before prematurely writing them off...You're going to have to deal with that.

I think thats a bit extreme, I think looking at what you had and what you now have you have no choice but to understand, there's at the very least a learning curve. Which would leave one to believe the improvement isn't going to be immediate. From everything I've read of OP that's his point.




5. 7-9 was where we should have been, considering the circumstances. In the first year of a new administration, a new system, new players including several rookies starting, etc, etc. Some may be putting too much stock in the system, but others are putting too much stock in names. Ask any Pittsburgh LB or Denver RB or any player in New England how important the system is to achieving personal success.


Why didn't the Bills do the same as the Jets or Saints?? They had the same situation. Could it be, the system itself? Could it be the coaching?? You act as if adding a new coaching staff means improvements can't be swift and staggering. I think they can be and it's proven all the time. Maybe the Bills coaching staff just isn't as good as you think. Who knows, but other teams have done what your saying your team couldn't do.

[feelthepain]

just because his team is flawed doesn't mean our team isn't, despite what a lot of people here tell themselves.


Every team is flawed it's just to what extent. I think Miami has a lot to prove, I just happen to think they have less to prove then the Bills. I also think Miami's improvemnts this offseason far outweigh the Bills improvements. I also think the Dolphins were a better team then the Bills last year given the teams we beat and the teams the Bills beat. Also, Miami finished the season ranked much higher on both sides of the ball then the Bills. Miami had a lot of injuries and lost games due to those injuries.

Bill fans can't look at the Dolphins QB situation with half a brain and think Miami wouldn't have been much better with a healthy Daunte. One or two key injuries can hurt even the best teams in the league to the extent that they don't even look the same, example....how many here think the Pats win double digit games without Brady?? or the Colts without Manning?? Seriously, key injuries make a huge difference in a teams season and the Bills didn't have any key injuries last year.

[HAMMER]

Piss and moan, piss and moan, it's about all Op does. It's a sad way to go through life if you ask me.

[Goobylal]

Every team is flawed it's just to what extent. I think Miami has a lot to prove, I just happen to think they have less to prove then the Bills.
LOL! You have NO offense this year, bud. The return of Ricky Williams to save the offense isn't going to happen, you have NO QB, no O-line, no TE, and you have the same pass-dropping WR's. And your defense is OLD. Frankly if the Dols manage to stay out of the bottom-5 in the NFL this season, I'd consider it an accomplishment.

I mean seriously, WHO did the Dols add over the off-season to make you think they'll be improved? And it's not like you can talk about the 2nd year under a new coach/system as a reason for hope.

[Goobylal]

Piss and moan, piss and moan, it's about all Op does. It's a sad way to go through life if you ask me.
No, he's right. The Bills did nothing over the off-season except for lose 3 great players on defense and a great RB. No one will improve. The Bills will be picking first overall next year. I am no longer a homer. I have seen the light.

[gr8slayer]

Every team is flawed it's just to what extent. I think Miami has a lot to prove, I just happen to think they have less to prove then the Bills. I also think Miami's improvemnts this offseason far outweigh the Bills improvements. I also think the Dolphins were a better team then the Bills last year given the teams we beat and the teams the Bills beat. Also, Miami finished the season ranked much higher on both sides of the ball then the Bills. Miami had a lot of injuries and lost games due to those injuries.

Bill fans can't look at the Dolphins QB situation with half a brain and think Miami wouldn't have been much better with a healthy Daunte. One or two key injuries can hurt even the best teams in the league to the extent that they don't even look the same, example....how many here think the Pats win double digit games without Brady?? or the Colts without Manning?? Seriously, key injuries make a huge difference in a teams season and the Bills didn't have any key injuries last year.
0-2 *****.

[DraftBoy]

Every team is flawed it's just to what extent. I think Miami has a lot to prove, I just happen to think they have less to prove then the Bills. I also think Miami's improvemnts this offseason far outweigh the Bills improvements. I also think the Dolphins were a better team then the Bills last year given the teams we beat and the teams the Bills beat. Also, Miami finished the season ranked much higher on both sides of the ball then the Bills. Miami had a lot of injuries and lost games due to those injuries.

Bill fans can't look at the Dolphins QB situation with half a brain and think Miami wouldn't have been much better with a healthy Daunte. One or two key injuries can hurt even the best teams in the league to the extent that they don't even look the same, example....how many here think the Pats win double digit games without Brady?? or the Colts without Manning?? Seriously, key injuries make a huge difference in a teams season and the Bills didn't have any key injuries last year.


Did you seriously just compare Daunte Culpepper to Tom Brady and Peyton Manning?

[gr8slayer]

Did you seriously just compare Daunte Culpepper to Tom Brady and Peyton Manning?
It's always comical watching this guy talk about the Dolphins.

[Dr. Lecter]

First of all, at some point the D has to be on the field no matter how good the O is. You completely ignore this fact. Improved offensive production (which isn't even definite) can only help the D to a certain point.

Second, and more importantly, this isn't fantasy or Madden. Other teams don't give a **** how many points they score as long as they win. If they can control the clock for 40 minutes a game and only score 17 points because they had three 6+ minute drives, but we only score 13, the other team is going to take it every time.

The improved offense only works if the D can actually get off the field, and to get off the field you have to be able to stop the run.

"We fixed the O by fixing the D." Please. Go post that on a football message board that's not run by Bills fans so you can see how ridiculous it sounds to other fans. If a Dolphins fan came on here and said the same thing, we'd tear them a new one.

First if you think having an offense that can control the ball by running won't help, you are missing a big part of the game.

And while I agree the run defense has to improve, your constant refusal to give them any credit is old. They did some things well. That is my point. Last time I looked, points allowed is a more important stat than yards allowed. Quite frankly being more afraid of yards than TD's is FFL thought.

[OpIv37]

Piss and moan, piss and moan, it's about all Op does. It's a sad way to go through life if you ask me.

and how exactly do you know that's how I go through life just because that's what I do on a message board dedicated to an underperforming football team?

[OpIv37]

No, he's right. The Bills did nothing over the off-season except for lose 3 great players on defense and a great RB. No one will improve. The Bills will be picking first overall next year. I am no longer a homer. I have seen the light.

it's not that they did nothing- it's that they haven't done nearly enough to be good THIS year so everyone needs to stop pretending like they have.

[Dr. Lecter]

it's not that they did nothing- it's that they haven't done nearly enough to be good THIS year so everyone needs to stop pretending like they have.

Did you have the Jets and saints pegged last year as greatly improved teams?

Fact is anybody that guarentees improved or a lack thereof is full of crap.

Soem of us will wait to see how the team plays before giving up and declaring the season dead.

[OpIv37]

First if you think having an offense that can control the ball by running won't help, you are missing a big part of the game.

And while I agree the run defense has to improve, your constant refusal to give them any credit is old. They did some things well. That is my point. Last time I looked, points allowed is a more important stat than yards allowed. Quite frankly being more afraid of yards than TD's is FFL thought.

it's not yards- it's the time it takes to get those yards, which is time our offense isn't on the field. Even if they only get 3 points out of it or only score 1 or two TD's the entire game, that may be enough if our O is sitting on the sidelines. That's what happened last year.

And honestly, who cares what they did well last year? It wasn't good enough. The point is that we have to improve on the things we did poorly. And if you take a realistic look at the off-season, we haven't improved significantly in any of those areas. We might be better in some ways, but as a whole it still won't be good enough.

[John Doe]

The title of this thread is definately "Sourpussian."

[OpIv37]

Did you have the Jets and saints pegged last year as greatly improved teams?

Fact is anybody that guarentees improved or a lack thereof is full of crap.

Soem of us will wait to see how the team plays before giving up and declaring the season dead.

And in order to do that, you have to have unrealistic expectations for 2nd year player improvement, pretend that Youboty can be as good as Clements, downplay the loss of 3 starters, etc.

There are a few people around here, like Devin for example, who may not be as pessimistic as me but still have realistic expectations for the team this season. Then there are other people talking about how much our D has improved and how we should be able to make the playoffs and defending every mediocre piece of crap player on this team and it's getting really old.

[feelthepain]

Did you seriously just compare Daunte Culpepper to Tom Brady and Peyton Manning?

Well lets see, Culpepper has three probowls and better "QB" stats then Brady and close to equal to Peyton Manning. What's the biggest difference from Manning, Brady and Culpepper?? Coaching and the teams they played for.

Obviously the Pats and Colts were more talented then the Vikes. BB and Tony Dungy are far better coaches then Mike Tice and Denny Green. Or are you gonna tell me the Vikes, Tice and Green are as good as the Pats, Colts BB and Dungy and that none of that has an effect on the QB position?? I most definatley think Culpepper could have played for either the Colts or Pats and had as much success as they've had, Culpeppers proven he can do just as much at the QB position as either Manning or Brady with far less to work with.

So to answer your question yes, I'm comparing Culpepper to Brady and Manning.

[feelthepain]

it's not that they did nothing- it's that they haven't done nearly enough to be good THIS year so everyone needs to stop pretending like they have.

Don't you love how for some people it's either one extreme or the other, as if "common sense" are dirty words and just plain taboo??

[YardRat]

1. All that **** about Tripplett are exactly the kinds of excuses that piss me off- it's everyone's fault but his. And Anderson and Jefferson are still here, for the moment anyway. So basically the only improvement is 2 rookies and maybe Walker.

It's not an excuse...it's the reality of the situation. I'm not saying Tripplett or anybody on the d-line is great at this point in time...I'm just saying give them a fair shot to prove it.


2. Better isn't necessarily good enough. If we go from 28th to, say, 23rd, who cares? it still won't be enough to win.

Speculation. It may be good enough to win, it may not be. See Indy last year. And before you insert the 'But Indy's offense blah blah blah' I suggest you re-watch or at least revisit the box scores from last year's playogg games.


3. Speculation that a 3rd round CB who wasn't even good enough to dress on game day is going to be able to step in for Clements without a drop in play? If you honestly think there is an equal chance not having a drop-off at this position, you're being homeristic and not realistic about this situation.

I would expect some kind of drop-off from that single position, but neither you or I can say at this time that the perceived disparity in talent between Clements and Youboty or Thomas will be large enough to be relevant or whether it can be overcome by other players on the team and the scheme. I'm willing to wait and find out.


4. What you're forgetting here is the number of unproven players. ALL we have is potential and the only way this D is serviceable is if ALL that potential is realized, which isn't realistic. You're misrepresenting what I'm saying. I'm not saying players should never be replaced with someone who has more potential- I'm saying that when you do that with the entire ****ing D at the same exact time, don't expect immediate results. This D is at least one season and one good off-season from being good.

The defense is a work in progress...I can agree with that.


5. 7-9 is still not good enough- I don't care how you spin it with rookies and new systems and new administrations and all that. We clearly lacked talent on the field, and no matter who you try to blame for it, someone steps up to defend mediocrity. It's sickening. Being a fan of a team means wanting the team to WIN, and you don't do that by making excuses for players who aren't helping the team win.

The talent on the field that participated in the level of mediocrity included Fletcher, Clements, and Spikes.

Give the young guys a chance to prove themselves.

[YardRat]

it's not that they did nothing- it's that they haven't done nearly enough to be good THIS year so everyone needs to stop pretending like they have.

I've maintained since the beginning of free agency that it wouldn't surprise me to see the team have a worse record than last year. I don't expect to win this year, or make the playoffs.

Now next year may be a different story.

[OpIv37]

It's not an excuse...it's the reality of the situation. I'm not saying Tripplett or anybody on the d-line is great at this point in time...I'm just saying give them a fair shot to prove it.



Speculation. It may be good enough to win, it may not be. See Indy last year. And before you insert the 'But Indy's offense blah blah blah' I suggest you re-watch or at least revisit the box scores from last year's playogg games.



I would expect some kind of drop-off from that single position, but neither you or I can say at this time that the perceived disparity in talent between Clements and Youboty or Thomas will be large enough to be relevant or whether it can be overcome by other players on the team and the scheme. I'm willing to wait and find out.



The defense is a work in progress...I can agree with that.



The talent on the field that participated in the level of mediocrity included Fletcher, Clements, and Spikes.

Give the young guys a chance to prove themselves.

Tripplett had 16 games and did nothing. Therefore, I will assume he will continue to do nothing until he shows something different. Could he improve? Maybe, but it's ridiculous to count on it when analyzing the D.

As far as Indy goes- forget about the playoffs. Their D was awful in the regular season and the only reason their D was in the position to redeem themselves in the playoffs was BECAUSE of the offense. And our O is nowhere near as good as Indy's - the O has improved on paper, but the D will still have to carry it's weight for this team to compete.

With Clements, his loss will be mitigated at some point in time, hopefully this year by Youboty, but barring a miracle, there will be an initial drop off.

Regarding the mediocrity that included Fletch, Spikes and Clements- this goes back to the "potential" thing. Maybe they weren't good enough, but it's not clear by any means that their replacements are good enough either.

At least you seem to have realistic expectations for this D. I could see some of these moves panning out in a year or so, but as far as this year, I think the chances of significant improvement are remote (and by "significant" improvement, I mean being good enough to get a playoff spot or at least be in the hunt for one through week 17).

[Dr. Lecter]

And in order to do that, you have to have unrealistic expectations for 2nd year player improvement, pretend that Youboty can be as good as Clements, downplay the loss of 3 starters, etc.

There are a few people around here, like Devin for example, who may not be as pessimistic as me but still have realistic expectations for the team this season. Then there are other people talking about how much our D has improved and how we should be able to make the playoffs and defending every mediocre piece of crap player on this team and it's getting really old.

I am fully aware that they are not likely to be in the playoffs. I am also fully aware that the team Marv inherited from TD was going to take 2-3 offseasons to fix.

The difference is that I, and others like Jan Reimers and Yardie, are willing to evaluate all of the moves after we see the team play. We are nt ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater because we did not sign 11 new defensive starters.

Can we agree on that? Or that perhaps, just perhaps, guys like Whitner, Simpson, Williams, McCargo and Ellison will be improved from NFL experience and Crowell, Schobel, Dennet and Kelsay will understand the scheme better?

Or is it a 100% certainity that this team sucks and will 3-4 games before they take the field for one freaking training camp practice?

[tat2dmike77]

Personally here is how i see the season

The bills will most likely finish 8-8 not a great improvement by any means. The thing that will kill this team is the defense. This team should be in alot of games which mean they will loose at 4 games by 7 or less. The other 4 losses will be just an butt kickin by better teams. I do think the bills will win 2 games against teams they should not. I would like to think those games would be dallas and baltimore.

Back to the defense. The defense will be average at best and thats if everyone stays healthy. As we all know thats a big if. The run d should improve a little but not by much. It's the passing d that worries me. Yes ko and dante have a year under them but like most are saying who knows about youboty and mcgee is riddle all in himself. Teams are going to attack buffalo through the air and kill them. But that could change depending on whether or not the d-line gets pressure. Now i don't like the fact that spikes was let go but lets all be honest with ourselves. After that injury he is not the same player and we all know it. Clements being let go will hurt this year but i'm willing to chalk it up to growing pains. Yes he is a better option then what is avaliable now. He is not worth the money he got from the niners and they will find that out soon enough. The biggest loss is fletcher because of his leadership. I think poz will be just as productive maybe even a little more but there is going to be a big loss in leadership. Unless schobel steps up into that role like the staff is asking him to.

I'm not expecting the bills to win the super bowl (realisticlly) Sure when my friends ask who is going to win the super bowl i will say the bills with a chuckle. I'm a fan so why can't i say that the bills will win it all. Yes i know what kind of state the team is in but hey you never know. There is a reason they play the games and not just hand the trophy to a team. Things happen teams get hot players catch on quicker then expected so on and so forth.

My problem is with the same crap being spewed about. All these "experts" on here and yet none of them have been offered a job in the nfl for any team. We get it your better then marv. Funny though how nobody saw thier name in the running for the gm job when it opened.

Like i said i don't expect the bills to run over every team this year en route to a super bowl victory. But hell why not atleast hope for it. Cause like i said you never know what can happen during the season.

[Dr. Lecter]

Well lets see, Culpepper has three probowls and better "QB" stats then Brady and close to equal to Peyton Manning. What's the biggest difference from Manning, Brady and Culpepper?? Coaching and the teams they played for.

Obviously the Pats and Colts were more talented then the Vikes. BB and Tony Dungy are far better coaches then Mike Tice and Denny Green. Or are you gonna tell me the Vikes, Tice and Green are as good as the Pats, Colts BB and Dungy and that none of that has an effect on the QB position?? I most definatley think Culpepper could have played for either the Colts or Pats and had as much success as they've had, Culpeppers proven he can do just as much at the QB position as either Manning or Brady with far less to work with.

So to answer your question yes, I'm comparing Culpepper to Brady and Manning.

Brady has never had the offensive talen Culpepper did. His top WR's last year were guys like Reche Caldwell and Tony Brown. Or are those guys better than Randy Moss and Chris Carter?

You damn well never call any of us Bills homers. Your view of Culpepper is astoundingly blind.

[Goobylal]

Culpepper is a fraud. His major problem was his brain, and now he's got a bum knee. If he's the Dols' starting QB, they're in more trouble than I thought they were with Lemon or Beck.

[feelthepain]

Brady has never had the offensive talen Culpepper did. His top WR's last year were guys like Reche Caldwell and Tony Brown. Or are those guys better than Randy Moss and Chris Carter?

You damn well never call any of us Bills homers. Your view of Culpepper is astoundingly blind.

Brady did have the talent equal to and better then Culpepper had. The Only player Culpepper had that Brady didn't is the very player that now has a locker right next to him in Moss. I have no idea what planet you watch football from, but it isn't earth. Shall I do your homework for you and put up Brady, Culpepper and Mannings numbers side by side so you'll stop with denial??? Like I said Culpepper never had the teams nor coaching the Manning and Brady have had. But since Culpepper is a Dolphin, you have to make crap up and continually lie to yourself because you'd rather stab yourself in the eye with a pecil then admit Miami has one of the best QB's in the game.

[Goobylal]

But since Culpepper is a Dolphin, you have to make crap up and continually lie to yourself because you'd rather stab yourself in the eye with a pecil then admit Miami has one of the best QB's in the game.
No need for anyone to stab him/herself in the eye. The Dols will have the worst starting QB in the division no matter WHO it is.

[SquishDaFish]

3,4,5 I totally disagree with you on. Sorry Neg Nancy

[X-Era]

two things- first, when you discussed Clements, you said we might be able to get by if we were better at stopping the run- how are we going to do that when the only changes are Darwin Walker and an inexperienced McCargo.

Second, there is an inherent problem with the homegrown route: contracts expire and players leave the team, or players get older and move past their prime. There aren't too many players on this team who will be past their prime anytime soon, but the contracts expiring is a huge deal. Hopefully the "cash to cap" philosophy is a short-term strategy to help us mitigate these situations, but at this pace, by the time enough of our holes are filled to be competitive, there will be a whole new set of holes holding us back.

So, Darwin Walker is an upgrade to Tim Anderson who is now probably going to get cut. John McCargo is a replacement to fit our Cover 2 scheme when we let fat Sam go. Larry Tripplett is supposed to be our replacement for Pat Williams. McCargo has not lived up to 1st round billing yet, I will give you that. But he has potential and is finally healthy. Kyle Williams was a steal and Im real excited to what him progress.

Overall, I think Tripplett, Walker, McCargo, Williams is a whole lot better than say Sam Adams, Tim Anderson, Justin Bannan that we had a few years ago.

As far as cash to cap, Im not sure anyone can STILL put there finger on it. I cant say we wont spend big money, we did on Dockery and Walker. I cant say we wont keep our own, we did on Kelsay, Denney, Schobel, McGee, Peters. I think what we have yet to see the Bills do is grab the number 1 guy at any position in FA. They just havent done that.

[Dr. Lecter]

Brady did have the talent equal to and better then Culpepper had. The Only player Culpepper had that Brady didn't is the very player that now has a locker right next to him in Moss. I have no idea what planet you watch football from, but it isn't earth. Shall I do your homework for you and put up Brady, Culpepper and Mannings numbers side by side so you'll stop with denial??? Like I said Culpepper never had the teams nor coaching the Manning and Brady have had. But since Culpepper is a Dolphin, you have to make crap up and continually lie to yourself because you'd rather stab yourself in the eye with a pecil then admit Miami has one of the best QB's in the game.

lol!

I did it for years when they had Danny-Boy. Culpepper had a couple of great seasons and was one of the most talented QB's out there. Now he is a one legged piece of garbage. As for Brady having the talent at WR, it is not even close. Moss (when he was the top guy in the NFL) and Chris Carter, a likely future HoF player, are miles ahead of the Pats WR's from last year. Reche Caldwell????? Hell, remember that Culpeper had Robert Smith at RB, who was better than Maroney was last year.

As for what planet I watch football from, why don't you go and ask 99 other Dolphins fans if they would take Manning or Brady in a straight-up deal for Duante.

I bet I know the results from that poll.

[feelthepain]

lol!

I did it for years when they had Danny-Boy. Culpepper had a couple of great seasons and was one of the most talented QB's out there. Now he is a one legged piece of garbage.

One legged piece of garbage....wow, what a stupid comment from a bias source. I guess injuries on your imaginary planet don't really happen and there is no need to heal from injuries. But here on earth injuries are real and they happen to real people. As with any human time heals all wounds, only some take longer to heal then others, Daunte is a close to 100% as he's been since the day he was injured.

Now I know your childish attitude and outlook for Daunte is just that...childish, Daunte has lost none of his talent. I just love how you only see a conclusion that makes you happy,you see no other outcome, gosh waht are the odds you don't want Daunte to return to 100%?? He might return healthy and light up the Bills. You simply don't want that, so you post nonsense about his health and ability. In the end though, it's nothing more then wishful thinking on your part, but no one would know that to listen to garbage you spew, do the world a favor and spare us your bias uneducated opinion, it does nothing more then ease your fear. And I could care less about you feelings.



As for Brady having the talent at WR, it is not even close. Moss (when he was the top guy in the NFL) and Chris Carter, a likely future HoF player, are miles ahead of the Pats WR's from last year. Reche Caldwell????? Hell, remember that Culpeper had Robert Smith at RB, who was better than Maroney was last year.



First of all, when was the last time "Moss was the top guy in the NFL"? Here, let me help you with that. It was when "Daunte" was his QB, Moss has done nothing since and Moss has been completely healthysince he left Minn. Also for those of you mentally lacking in football knowledge, there is more then just WR's that account for the offensive success. There's the RB, Oline, TE's, OC and HC.

Now maybe this will be a little eaiser question for you simpleton......which QB had the worst Oline, RB, OC and HC of the three QB's just metioned for the last 5 years, hmmmm?? Do I also need to do your homework on this question too?? I know you so desperatly want Daunte to not be in this group of three QB's and for no other reason then because you'll have to accept that Daunte belongs in that group and you would hate that, but he clearly had far less offensive talent and coaching then Brady or Manning. You can continue to keep getting your information from whatever planet it is you watch football from, But here on Earth, the facts support Daunte and what he's had to overcome to put up just as good and better numbers then Manning and Brady.




As for what planet I watch football from, why don't you go and ask 99 other Dolphins fans if they would take Manning or Brady in a straight-up deal for Duante.

I bet I know the results from that poll.


K, as long as we also get to hold a poll with the same question only take Brady and Manning out and instead inclued the Colts Oline and HC, or the the Pats Oline and HC.

I bet I know the results from those polls too!! It sure would be mature of you to admit Tom and Peyton had two of the best offensive and coaching situations in all of football the last 5 or 6 years.

Now run off and have a tea party with your little sister while the adults talk football, hmm.

[OpIv37]

I am fully aware that they are not likely to be in the playoffs. I am also fully aware that the team Marv inherited from TD was going to take 2-3 offseasons to fix.

The difference is that I, and others like Jan Reimers and Yardie, are willing to evaluate all of the moves after we see the team play. We are nt ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater because we did not sign 11 new defensive starters.

Can we agree on that? Or that perhaps, just perhaps, guys like Whitner, Simpson, Williams, McCargo and Ellison will be improved from NFL experience and Crowell, Schobel, Dennet and Kelsay will understand the scheme better?

Or is it a 100% certainity that this team sucks and will 3-4 games before they take the field for one freaking training camp practice?

Evaluating after you see the team play is fine- unfortunately they're not playing right now so there's nothing to talk about except how we think they're going to do. And I think a lot of people have unrealistic expectations regarding that, which was the point of this thread.

Nothing's a 100% certainty until it happens, but it's far more likely that this D is going to struggle than that it's going to do well.

I will agree that there is a possibility for SOME improvement- in fact, some improvement is almost inevitable. My problem is that at this point in time, I just don't see ENOUGH improvement to get us where we need to be.

[OpIv37]

So, Darwin Walker is an upgrade to Tim Anderson who is now probably going to get cut. John McCargo is a replacement to fit our Cover 2 scheme when we let fat Sam go. Larry Tripplett is supposed to be our replacement for Pat Williams. McCargo has not lived up to 1st round billing yet, I will give you that. But he has potential and is finally healthy. Kyle Williams was a steal and Im real excited to what him progress.

Overall, I think Tripplett, Walker, McCargo, Williams is a whole lot better than say Sam Adams, Tim Anderson, Justin Bannan that we had a few years ago.

As far as cash to cap, Im not sure anyone can STILL put there finger on it. I cant say we wont spend big money, we did on Dockery and Walker. I cant say we wont keep our own, we did on Kelsay, Denney, Schobel, McGee, Peters. I think what we have yet to see the Bills do is grab the number 1 guy at any position in FA. They just havent done that.

Well you can argue about the 07 line vs the 05 line, but I was trying to compare the '07 line to the '06 line. If Walker doesn't hold out and Anderson gets cut, that's a definite improvement. While we're better with McCargo than without him, he still has a long way to go and I'm still concerned that this group hasn't improved enough to make up for last year's deficiencies.

As far as cash to cap- my theory is this: hopefully, they are using it as a 1-2 year strategy so when guys like Evans, Peters, Losman, Schobel etc need new contracts, we will have that year's FULL cap and not still be paying guys we signed this year. If "cash to cap" allows us to keep these guys, then it's consistent with Marv's strategy of building from within and keeping their players, and its' a good thing. If we lose guys to FA that we want to keep because of "cash to cap", then unfortunately it means patmoran is right and cash to cap is all about being cheap.

[Dr. Lecter]

One legged piece of garbage....wow, what a stupid comment from a bias source. I guess injuries on your imaginary planet don't really happen and there is no need to heal from injuries. But here on earth injuries are real and they happen to real people. As with any human time heals all wounds, only some take longer to heal then others, Daunte is a close to 100% as he's been since the day he was injured.

Then why are the Dolphins considering trading for Trent Green??? Without his mobility Culpepper is a significantly less effect QB. Can you at least admit that? And why is he still limited in off season workouts??? And the talk about Lemon starting?

And you call me a biased source: Are you without bias yourself??


Now I know your childish attitude and outlook for Daunte is just that...childish, Daunte has lost none of his talent. I just love how you only see a conclusion that makes you happy,you see no other outcome, gosh waht are the odds you don't want Daunte to return to 100%?? He might return healthy and light up the Bills. You simply don't want that, so you post nonsense about his health and ability. In the end though, it's nothing more then wishful thinking on your part, but no one would know that to listen to garbage you spew, do the world a favor and spare us your bias uneducated opinion, it does nothing more then ease your fear. And I could care less about you feelings.

I love this part. I should make it my sig.
Of course I don't want him (or any other) QB light up the Bills.
And you not caring about my feelings is devastating. Horrible. Methinks I will cry.





First of all, when was the last time "Moss was the top guy in the NFL"? Here, let me help you with that. It was when "Daunte" was his QB, Moss has done nothing since and Moss has been completely healthysince he left Minn. Also for those of you mentally lacking in football knowledge, there is more then just WR's that account for the offensive success. There's the RB, Oline, TE's, OC and HC.

Really? There are more parts of an offense that the QB and WR??? Maybe that is why I mentioned Robert Smith. He plays RB.


Now maybe this will be a little eaiser question for you simpleton......which QB had the worst Oline, RB, OC and HC of the three QB's just metioned for the last 5 years, hmmmm?? Do I also need to do your homework on this question too?? I know you so desperatly want Daunte to not be in this group of three QB's and for no other reason then because you'll have to accept that Daunte belongs in that group and you would hate that, but he clearly had far less offensive talent and coaching then Brady or Manning. You can continue to keep getting your information from whatever planet it is you watch football from, But here on Earth, the facts support Daunte and what he's had to overcome to put up just as good and better numbers then Manning and Brady. Now run off and have a tea party with your little sister while the adults talk football, hmm.
Duante does not belong in the same league as Brady and Manning because they are #1 and #2 in the NFL. There is a talented group of guys in the next teir like Brees, Palmer, Bulger, and Favre (at times).

Until Culpepper can come back he is not there. And if offseason reports are true, he might never make it back. Which would be a shame , because he was great before the injury.

Sadly for you and the classy Fin fans like the LT, Bling and Papa, it looks the knee might end his career as a top teir guy.




K, as long as we also get to hold a poll with the same question only take Brady and Manning out and instead inclued the Colts Oline and HC, or the the Pats Oline and HC.

I bet I know the results from those polls too!! It sure would be mature of you to admit Tom and Peyton had two of the best offensive and coaching situations in all of football the last 5 or 6 years.

They sure do. No question on that. Of course, the QBs also make the talent around them better too. And unless Miami has jumped light years ahead this offseason, they don't have those capabilities either.

[feelthepain]

Then why are the Dolphins considering trading for Trent Green??? Without his mobility Culpepper is a significantly less effect QB. Can you at least admit that? And why is he still limited in off season workouts??? And the talk about Lemon starting?

And you call me a biased source: Are you without bias yourself??

Ok lets say, we start camp today, how many QB's does Miami have?? I won't Hamdan cuse he's simply there as a body, so basically Miami has 3 QB's Trent Green would make 4 not an exactly a bunch of QB's I think the Bucs have 6 as we speak.

Lets say Miami heads into the season with 4 QB's on the roster, it's a trademark of teams under Randy Mueller. You are trying to make more of the Green thing then is there. Ofcourse Miami need to assure themselves all the competition they can incase Daunte isn't ready, but Daunte says he feels much better then he's felt the last two years.

Culpepper used his mobility to help him escape from the pressure and he was forced to play that way cause the talent in Minn wasn't as good as you seem to think it was. You also act as if Daunte will never return form this injury and be just as elusive and mobil as he was before the injury. Well people were saying the same things about Willis and Edgerin and they both run a lot more then Daunte and they're just fine. Daunte can return and be as effective as he was before the injury, other players have had the same injury as Daunte and returned to the game and shown no loss of ability.




I love this part. I should make it my sig.
Of course I don't want him (or any other) QB light up the Bills.
And you not caring about my feelings is devastating. Horrible. Methinks I will cry.


Ofcourse you don't want Daunte to return to health, but it's obvious when you post your bias opinions that your only posting wishful thinking and not fact. Any two year old can do that, try to elevate your effort just a little you're a mod for god sakes, represent the site with a little class and maturity will ya. There enough of the childish crap here to choke a cow without you helping.



Duante does not belong in the same league as Brady and Manning because they are #1 and #2 in the NFL. There is a talented group of guys in the next teir like Brees, Palmer, Bulger, and Favre (at times).

Until Culpepper can come back he is not there. And if offseason reports are true, he might never make it back. Which would be a shame , because he was great before the injury.

Sadly for you and the classy Fin fans like the LT, Bling and Papa, it looks the knee might end his career as a top teir guy.


See here's where you shouldnt be posting if you don't understand the basic fundamentals of the game of football. It's a team sport, Brady is a good QB, but he is in the perfect system for him with a HC that gets it. Peyton would probably succed on most teams, but not all. You give all the credit to the QB's and you forget about the Olines, RB's coaching and all the other parts that get those QB's to where they are. Look at all three QB's and Daunte is only slighty behind Manning in 99% of the stats and Brady isn't even close to Manning and Culpepper in most stats, but has had more success due to the terrific coaching and system in place in NE. No one with half a brain thinks Brady and Peyton are a notch above Daunte as far as talent at the QB position.


They sure do. No question on that. Of course, the QBs also make the talent around them better too. And unless Miami has jumped light years ahead this offseason, they don't have those capabilities either.


Really?? How long would Brady or Manning last in Houston where they just give up sacks like fat kid likes cake?? They would be sacked just as much and have just slightly more success. Why?? Cause I don't care how accurate or smart you are, if you have no one blocking for you in the NFL with a solid gameplan, you aren't going to win anything, end of story!!

[tat2dmike77]

Would you 2 :stfu: about brady and cullpepper we all saw what cullpeper did last year against the bills.

I do seem to remember though when the trent green talks were heating up all the miami fans immediatly flocked to that and couldn't wait for trent green to come in. One minute you love daunte the next you can't wait to see him on plane and leaving miami.

I'm not worried about him after that awesome performence he had against buffalo. How many times was he sacked? How many TD's did he throw agains the bills? How many games did daunte win?

Now i know go bring out all the old stats from the past and wow me about him but here is the simple fact daunte has never had success without randy moss. And vice versua so thats all i'm gonna say about your godsend cullpepper.

[justasportsfan]

Haha! Op and FTP are now best friends. Do you guys hold hands now when you piss on the bills?

[Dr. Lecter]

The funny partis the FPT is saying I won't admit how good Culpepper is because he is a fish.

But, if that were the case, why would I praise Brady who plays for the Pats?

[gr8slayer]

Would you 2 :stfu: about brady and cullpepper we all saw what cullpeper did last year against the bills.

I do seem to remember though when the trent green talks were heating up all the miami fans immediatly flocked to that and couldn't wait for trent green to come in. One minute you love daunte the next you can't wait to see him on plane and leaving miami.

I'm not worried about him after that awesome performence he had against buffalo. How many times was he sacked? How many TD's did he throw agains the bills? How many games did daunte win?

Now i know go bring out all the old stats from the past and wow me about him but here is the simple fact daunte has never had success without randy moss. And vice versua so thats all i'm gonna say about your godsend cullpepper.
Culpepper is a washed up P.O.S. Dolphins fans just can't admit that their front office blows and made the wrong choice, had they gone after Brees they might be a respectable team right now. Instead they are at the bottom of the AFCE for the next couple of years.

[feelthepain]

The funny partis the FPT is saying I won't admit how good Culpepper is because he is a fish.

But, if that were the case, why would I praise Brady who plays for the Pats?

Becuase Brady has three SB trophies and you have no choice but to admit it. Lucky for Brady though he had BB cause Brady wouldn't have won three SB's with any other team, Guaranteed!!! He's just not good enough to carry a team by himself, he needs the right system or he's just another QB.

[feelthepain]

Would you 2 :stfu: about brady and cullpepper we all saw what cullpeper did last year against the bills.

I do seem to remember though when the trent green talks were heating up all the miami fans immediatly flocked to that and couldn't wait for trent green to come in. One minute you love daunte the next you can't wait to see him on plane and leaving miami.

I'm not worried about him after that awesome performence he had against buffalo. How many times was he sacked? How many TD's did he throw agains the bills? How many games did daunte win?

Now i know go bring out all the old stats from the past and wow me about him but here is the simple fact daunte has never had success without randy moss. And vice versua so thats all i'm gonna say about your godsend cullpepper.


OK, since Daunte wasn't a 100% healthy and had some bad games because of it and you believe that is exactly what Daunte has become, then you won't have a problem with everyone else around the league believeing the Bills suck against every team with a winning record cause the Bills couldn't win one game last year against a team with a winning record or a team that made the playoffs.

So that's it, we all saw it, the Bills will continue to suck because they can't beat winning teams. What happened last year is all that matters this year...it's proof, you can't argue about it, the Bills won't beat any winning teams this year cause you couldn't last year. Thank god, I don't want the Bills to win anything so I'm glad what happen to them last year is proof it will happen again this year. Thanks for clearing this up.

[alohabillsfan]

Some people really are 1 dimensional with narrowed vision! Lets looks at stats/facts...

1) 2006 18th in total defense/30th total offense... The question is how to quantify how much of an ineffective offense affect a defense?
- Buffalo was last in plays on offense


2) I love this comment (talk about 1 dimensional) the d-line sucks!

Again 2006 stats, Buffalo's D-line = 40 sacks... tied with Chicagos "vaunted" defense! The difference? Chicago's offense produced 8 more points a game...
Chicago also created more turnovers which help the offense score those points
-Chiacgo= take aways 44 give aways 36 plus 8!
-Buffalo= take aways 24 give aways 29 minus 5! Buffalo needs to creat the turnovers and Nate was not the answer, I hope the corner we need is on the roster time will tell, and I do believe the tandem at safety will create alot more turnovers in their 2nd season! .

*** The to teams that played in the Superbowl both play the Tampa 2 defense right? The also produced 26.7 points a game that is what we need and the d will be good enough!

The bottom line is this... This team and I say team, which includes the defense will improved if and I say if, the offensive line is improved comensurate with the cash that was spent. The offensive line is the key to our defense and anyone that does not realize that will continue to cry we suck, the deline sucks were dead blah blah blah. Take the blinders off, open your eyes see the whole picture!


With all that said, I believe we will be better we may evemn sneak into the playoffs but I really think that we land in the 8-8 to 10-6 range and will only be 1 more FA/draft period away from being a contender...

[OpIv37]

Some people really are 1 dimensional with narrowed vision! Lets looks at stats/facts...

1) 2006 18th in total defense/30th total offense... The question is how to quantify how much of an ineffective offense affect a defense?
- Buffalo was last in plays on offense


2) I love this comment (talk about 1 dimensional) the d-line sucks!

Again 2006 stats, Buffalo's D-line = 40 sacks... tied with Chicagos "vaunted" defense! The difference? Chicago's offense produced 8 more points a game...
Chicago also created more turnovers which help the offense score those points
-Chiacgo= take aways 44 give aways 36 plus 8!
-Buffalo= take aways 24 give aways 29 minus 5! Buffalo needs to creat the turnovers and Nate was not the answer, I hope the corner we need is on the roster time will tell, and I do believe the tandem at safety will create alot more turnovers in their 2nd season! .

*** The to teams that played in the Superbowl both play the Tampa 2 defense right? The also produced 26.7 points a game that is what we need and the d will be good enough!

The bottom line is this... This team and I say team, which includes the defense will improved if and I say if, the offensive line is improved comensurate with the cash that was spent. The offensive line is the key to our defense and anyone that does not realize that will continue to cry we suck, the deline sucks were dead blah blah blah. Take the blinders off, open your eyes see the whole picture!


With all that said, I believe we will be better we may evemn sneak into the playoffs but I really think that we land in the 8-8 to 10-6 range and will only be 1 more FA/draft period away from being a contender...

You're telling me to open my eyes? What a joke. First you say Nate Clements isn't the answer, but you think that K Thomas and A Youboty are? Youboty might be but we just don't know because we haven't seen him play. So there is no basis for your assumption that losing Clements will instantly lead to more turnovers.

Second, we lost Spikes and Fletcher and while you can argue that their production was down, their experience got them in the right place to make plays (especially Fletch). It's unreasonable to expect the inexperience we have at LB to be able to step in and create more turnovers.

Third, no matter how good the OL is, our D will still have to be on the field. The O can only compensate for the D to a certain point. You refuse to acknowledge that we still have to PLAY defense at some point. If the other team starts with the ball and runs it down our throats for 6+ minutes, our D will be getting tired and giving up points, while our O (no matter how good or bad), sits idly on the sidelines.

Fourth, while spending money on the OL is a good start, it doesn't guarantee success. Remember, Mike Williams made $9 million a season. I'll admit that on paper our O in general and our OL in particular looks a lot better, but that's on paper. I'll believe they're better when I see it.

Fifth, the cover 2 is flawed regardless of the SB teams. Indy has an incredible offense that takes a lot of pressure off their D. Chicago has damn near the perfect personnel for the Cover 2. Buffalo has NEITHER. So it's faulty logic to assume the Cover 2 is a good defensive system just because Chicago and Indy got to the SB with it. There are a lot of mitigating factors that you are not including.

[madness]

Haha! Op and FTP are now best friends. Do you guys hold hands now when you piss on the bills?

I know this is childish but Justa gave me the idea and I just couldn't resist. Please don't take offense. :evil:

FTP and Op sitting in a tree. P-I-S-S-I-N-G.

First comes loathe, then comes disparage.

Then comes Pat sitting in a burden carriage!

[feelthepain]

Some people really are 1 dimensional with narrowed vision! Lets looks at stats/facts...

1) 2006 18th in total defense/30th total offense... The question is how to quantify how much of an ineffective offense affect a defense?
- Buffalo was last in plays on offense


2) I love this comment (talk about 1 dimensional) the d-line sucks!

Again 2006 stats, Buffalo's D-line = 40 sacks... tied with Chicagos "vaunted" defense! The difference? Chicago's offense produced 8 more points a game...
Chicago also created more turnovers which help the offense score those points
-Chiacgo= take aways 44 give aways 36 plus 8!
-Buffalo= take aways 24 give aways 29 minus 5! Buffalo needs to creat the turnovers and Nate was not the answer, I hope the corner we need is on the roster time will tell, and I do believe the tandem at safety will create alot more turnovers in their 2nd season! .

*** The to teams that played in the Superbowl both play the Tampa 2 defense right? The also produced 26.7 points a game that is what we need and the d will be good enough!

The bottom line is this... This team and I say team, which includes the defense will improved if and I say if, the offensive line is improved comensurate with the cash that was spent. The offensive line is the key to our defense and anyone that does not realize that will continue to cry we suck, the deline sucks were dead blah blah blah. Take the blinders off, open your eyes see the whole picture!


With all that said, I believe we will be better we may evemn sneak into the playoffs but I really think that we land in the 8-8 to 10-6 range and will only be 1 more FA/draft period away from being a contender...


The Only reason the Colts were in the SB was their Offense...not their D and the Bears while having all those sacks also had one of the best Run defenses in the league. The Bears had the #1 Defense, #1 Offense and the #1 ST's unit in football through 7 games last year, so both the Bears and Colts were not there because of the Tampa 2, it was more because of other things then it was the Defens they ran.

Now to think the Bills will improve simply because the Colts and Bears run the Tampa 2 is simply ridiculous!! Your Offense will have to go from 30th overall to somewhere around 7-8 to make up for your lack of experience and run stopping your D suffers from.

[alohabillsfan]

You're telling me to open my eyes? What a joke. First you say Nate Clements isn't the answer, but you think that K Thomas and A Youboty are? Youboty might be but we just don't know because we haven't seen him play. So there is no basis for your assumption that losing Clements will instantly lead to more turnovers.

Second, we lost Spikes and Fletcher and while you can argue that their production was down, their experience got them in the right place to make plays (especially Fletch). It's unreasonable to expect the inexperience we have at LB to be able to step in and create more turnovers.

Third, no matter how good the OL is, our D will still have to be on the field. The O can only compensate for the D to a certain point. You refuse to acknowledge that we still have to PLAY defense at some point. If the other team starts with the ball and runs it down our throats for 6+ minutes, our D will be getting tired and giving up points, while our O (no matter how good or bad), sits idly on the sidelines.

Fourth, while spending money on the OL is a good start, it doesn't guarantee success. Remember, Mike Williams made $9 million a season. I'll admit that on paper our O in general and our OL in particular looks a lot better, but that's on paper. I'll believe they're better when I see it.

Fifth, the cover 2 is flawed regardless of the SB teams. Indy has an incredible offense that takes a lot of pressure off their D. Chicago has damn near the perfect personnel for the Cover 2. Buffalo has NEITHER. So it's faulty logic to assume the Cover 2 is a good defensive system just because Chicago and Indy got to the SB with it. There are a lot of mitigating factors that you are not including.


OK OP I will play your game...

1. I never said Yobouty would be the answer I said he could... The additional turnovers will come from our tandem at safety playing in their 2nd year, you know that thing they (players, coaches etc..) cal the speed of the game!

2. Not sure where I said the LB's would create more turnover but just maybe Poz will be able to hit the RB before he is 6 yards downfield.

3. Thats a joke right? Where oh where did I say that we did not have to play defense? Good golly man (and I use that term loosely).

4. Do yourself a favor and look up the word comensurate at dictionary.com!!!!!!

5. So it's faulty logic to assume the Cover 2 is a good defensive system just because Chicago and Indy got to the SB with it. That's just hilarious!!!!!! Yep the defense is flawed just because the 2 superbowl teams used it! Lets get Minnesotas defense now!!!!!!!!!!!!Holy crap! ROFLMFAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mysticsoto]

Haha! Op and FTP are now best friends. Do you guys hold hands now when you piss on the bills?

The funny thing is you can characterize their posts without even reading them:

Op: Blah, blah, blah, Bills are going to suck...blah, blah, blah...We lost good players...blah, blah, blah...we have no depth...blah, blah, blah, we have too many mediocre players...blah, blah, blah...

FTP: Blah, blah, blah, Bills are going to suck...blah, blah, blah, Miami has made the best changes...blah, blah, blah, Culpepper is awesome...blah, blah, blah...Bills fans are all 2 year old homers...blah, blah, blah.

And this accounts for 99% of their posts!

[OpIv37]

OK OP I will play your game...

1. I never said Yobouty would be the answer I said he could... The additional turnovers will come from our tandem at safety playing in their 2nd year, you know that thing they (players, coaches etc..) cal the speed of the game!

2. Not sure where I said the LB's would create more turnover but just maybe Poz will be able to hit the RB before he is 6 yards downfield.

3. Thats a joke right? Where oh where did I say that we did not have to play defense? Good golly man (and I use that term loosely).

4. Do yourself a favor and look up the word comensurate at dictionary.com!!!!!!

5. So it's faulty logic to assume the Cover 2 is a good defensive system just because Chicago and Indy got to the SB with it. That's just hilarious!!!!!! Yep the defense is flawed just because the 2 superbowl teams used it! Lets get Minnesotas defense now!!!!!!!!!!!!Holy crap! ROFLMFAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 and 2- you said we need more turnovers and those could come from the Safeties, but you didn't account for the fact that we're likely to get LESS turnovers from our LB's and CB's.

3- you are counting on the O to make the D better because the D didn't get better on it's own- that's not realisitic.

4- I read your initial point too fast and did not see the qualifying "if", so I think we're actually close to being in agreement here.

5- Your analysis here is flawed. It is a faulty conclusion to think the Cover 2 is a good style of D just because the two SB teams used it because the conclusion does not account for a variety of other factors. Namely, Chicago has the PERFECT personnel for it and Indy's offense is good enough to take pressure off the D. The Bills (or most teams in the NFL, for that matter) do not have either of those situations.

The Cover 2 is not built to stop the run. The superior athleticism of Chicago's DT's and LB's allow them to stop the run anyway. In Indy, the offense is powerful enough to force the other team to pass, which plays into the strength of the Cover 2. Buffalo can do neither of those things.

[justasportsfan]

I know this is childish but Justa gave me the idea and I just couldn't resist. Please don't take offense. :evil:

FTP and Op sitting in a tree. P-I-S-S-I-N-G.

First comes loathe, then comes disparage.

Then comes Pat sitting in a burden carriage!
The funny thing is you can characterize their posts without even reading them:

Op: Blah, blah, blah, Bills are going to suck...blah, blah, blah...We lost good players...blah, blah, blah...we have no depth...blah, blah, blah, we have too many mediocre players...blah, blah, blah...

FTP: Blah, blah, blah, Bills are going to suck...blah, blah, blah, Miami has made the best changes...blah, blah, blah, Culpepper is awesome...blah, blah, blah...Bills fans are all 2 year old homers...blah, blah, blah.

And this accounts for 99% of their posts!



the thing is that when it's time to piss on the FINS, OP will be all alone because FTP is the biggest homer. OP doesn't mind that their friendship is a one way traffic because he needs FTP more to validate his pessimism because MIsery loves company even if the company is in a form of a troll , Op will take it.

[OpIv37]

The funny thing is you can characterize their posts without even reading them:

Op: Blah, blah, blah, Bills are going to suck...blah, blah, blah...We lost good players...blah, blah, blah...we have no depth...blah, blah, blah, we have too many mediocre players...blah, blah, blah...


Of course, it's all true but that's beside the point....

[OpIv37]

the thing is that when it's time to piss on the fins, OP will be all alone because FTP is the biggest homer. OP doesn't mind that their friendship is a one way traffic because he needs FTP more to validate his pessimism because MIsery loves company even if the company is in a form of a troll , Op will take it.

I don't need FTP to validate my pessimism- the way the Bills perform on the field usually validates it just fine.

And when the Bills performance on the field stops validating pessimism, I won't be so pessimistic.

[mysticsoto]

Of course, it's all true but that's beside the point....

Like I said, show me a team that has great depth at every position. No team has that. Show me a team that doesn't have mediocre players starting. No team has that. That's what the cap is for...to attempt and even teams out. So, like any other team, we will excel at some things and struggle with others. Run D is probably our biggest weakness. But having a defense that excels in creating turnovers helps compensate for that. And now, having a better MLB that is better suited for Cover 2 will help compensate for that. And having a better offense that can run the ball, take time off the clock and score will help compensate for that. No we are not perfect, Op. We never will be. We weren't perfect those years we went to the superbowl in a row either...

[justasportsfan]

I don't need FTP to validate my pessimism- the way the Bills perform on the field usually validates it just fine.

And when the Bills performance on the field stops validating pessimism, I won't be so pessimistic.


Right. :rolleyes: Anytime you defend a poster like FTP even though his opinions are based on his hate for the bills , you're obviously trying to recruit friends.

Anything negative that applies to both the bills and fins is only applicable to the bills in FTP's head and yet you defend the guy.

His fellow finfans won't even bother defending him but you do. That's because all he does is blast the bills and that feeds into your pessimism. Misery loves company .

[Dr. Lecter]

And the depth issue is even more true now in FA. Many teams will have problems if players get injured at specific positions.

The idea that a team needs an entire 2nd string that are capable NFL starters is unrealistic.

[Dr. Lecter]

I don't need FTP to validate my pessimism- the way the Bills perform on the field usually validates it just fine.

And when the Bills performance on the field stops validating pessimism, I won't be so pessimistic.

Heaven forbid you give Marv and crew a chance at all.

[alohabillsfan]

5- Your analysis here is flawed. It is a faulty conclusion to think the Cover 2 is a good style of D just because the two SB teams used it because the conclusion does not account for a variety of other factors. Namely, Chicago has the PERFECT personnel for it and Indy's offense is good enough to take pressure off the D. The Bills (or most teams in the NFL, for that matter) do not have either of those situations.

The Cover 2 is not built to stop the run. The superior athleticism of Chicago's DT's and LB's allow them to stop the run anyway. In Indy, the offense is powerful enough to force the other team to pass, which plays into the strength of the Cover 2. Buffalo can do neither of those things.[/QUOTE]

5. How is the analysis of 2 cover 2 teams being in the superbowl flawed?

At least you understand the cover2 is not built to stop the run! So why do you keep clammering for the Bills to sign a bunch of guys to stop the run when clearly they would not fit the system. The Tampa 2 is going to actually get more popular for the business aspect...

1) Tampa 2 needs smaller atlhletic D-linemen= The big hogs like M. Stroud and company command big bucks.

2) The Tampa 2 needs zone coverage good tackling CB's again cheaper that the Clements, Bailey etc.. corners.

3) The Tampa 2 needs speed at LB again you can draft smaller LB's a little later in the draft vice 1st or 2nd round.

What this means is that you can spend more money to retain your offense (Evans, JP etc..) and plug in defense anyone see Indys draft (the great Polian) gee they lose both Corners, starting LB and what do they draft WR!

Anyways all I am looking for is the Offense to improve to a scoring average of 23 points a game and we will win more that we lose even with this defense!!!

[OpIv37]

Like I said, show me a team that has great depth at every position. No team has that. Show me a team that doesn't have mediocre players starting. No team has that. That's what the cap is for...to attempt and even teams out. So, like any other team, we will excel at some things and struggle with others. Run D is probably our biggest weakness. But having a defense that excels in creating turnovers helps compensate for that. And now, having a better MLB that is better suited for Cover 2 will help compensate for that. And having a better offense that can run the ball, take time off the clock and score will help compensate for that. No we are not perfect, Op. We never will be. We weren't perfect those years we went to the superbowl in a row either...

Look at the stats- our D created 24 turnovers last year, which was 25th in the league. 10 of those 24 were by Clements and Fletcher, who aren't here anymore. So where do you get off saying that our D excels at creating turnovers?

Second, our new MLB is a ROOKIE. I suspect he'll be good in time, but to expect him to just step in and take over for Fletcher's leadership and experience with no dropoff in play is unrealistic.

Third, no one is saying we need to be perfect or that other teams are perfect. But most teams have more depth and less mediocrity than we do, and regardless of other teams, its' about what we did/didn't do in the off-season to get better. And we didn't do enough to be more competitive this year.

Fourth, the better offense will help TO A POINT- but the D still has to be on the field. Even the SB champs with a high-powered offense struggled for a while when their D couldn't get it done on the field.

[OpIv37]

Right. :rolleyes: Anytime you defend a poster like FTP even though his opinions are based on his hate for the bills , you're obviously trying to recruit friends.

Anything negative that applies to both the bills and fins is only applicable to the bills in FTP's head and yet you defend the guy.

His fellow finfans won't even bother defending him but you do. That's because all he does is blast the bills and that feeds into your pessimism. Misery loves company .

FTP's views on the Fish are very biased and I've never defended him on that. FTP's views on the Bills are a lot more reasonable than you give him credit for.

And anyway, he's not the problem- it's all the Bills fans on here who think we're so much better when we're clearly not.

Oh wait, let me rephrase before you start splitting hairs: it's all the Bills fans who think we're better even though looking at our off-season moves compared to all the problems we had last year suggests it's highly unlikely that we've improved.

[OpIv37]

5. How is the analysis of 2 cover 2 teams being in the superbowl flawed?

At least you understand the cover2 is not built to stop the run! So why do you keep clammering for the Bills to sign a bunch of guys to stop the run when clearly they would not fit the system. The Tampa 2 is going to actually get more popular for the business aspect...

1) Tampa 2 needs smaller atlhletic D-linemen= The big hogs like M. Stroud and company command big bucks.

2) The Tampa 2 needs zone coverage good tackling CB's again cheaper that the Clements, Bailey etc.. corners.

3) The Tampa 2 needs speed at LB again you can draft smaller LB's a little later in the draft vice 1st or 2nd round.

What this means is that you can spend more money to retain your offense (Evans, JP etc..) and plug in defense anyone see Indys draft (the great Polian) gee they lose both Corners, starting LB and what do they draft WR!

Anyways all I am looking for is the Offense to improve to a scoring average of 23 points a game and we will win more that we lose even with this defense!!!

If the O actually scores 23 a game we'll have a good chance for success. But it has to be a running, ball-control offense. A lightning-quick K gun offense won't work with this D because it won't keep the D off the field.

See, I don't think any D that can't stop the run is ever going to be successful unless it has a superior offense like Indy. Chicago is the exception because they CAN stop the run in the Cover 2, which is uncommon (as you addressed above).

[justasportsfan]

FTP's views on the Bills are a lot more reasonable than you give him credit for.


what views on the bills?That JP sucks? that our Ol sucks compared to the fins? Try disscusing the OL , you will see that he thinks theirs is better. Try saying Jauron is a more proven HC than Cameron. Let's See if he's still your friend. Oh wait, he will be once he says Cameron is the next BB and that Jauron sucks.

I'm sure he thinks Chambers is better than Evans.

You nit pick certain views that FTP has about the bills.

haha! thanks for making my point. You only get along when it comes to pissing on the bills.

[mysticsoto]

Look at the stats- our D created 24 turnovers last year, which was 25th in the league. 10 of those 24 were by Clements and Fletcher, who aren't here anymore. So where do you get off saying that our D excels at creating turnovers?

Yes, Op, let's look at stats. You keep ignoring the one stat that really matters - our #10 ranking in our D letting other offenses score.



Second, our new MLB is a ROOKIE. I suspect he'll be good in time, but to expect him to just step in and take over for Fletcher's leadership and experience with no dropoff in play is unrealistic.

Ellison came in and did well starting as a rookie. Pos has been said to be very intelligent, with a hard working ethic. Considering Fletch was a good 5 yds past the scrimmage line on every tackle he did, I don't think Pos can do much worse. He's younger, faster and maybe just as intelligent when it comes to football. He's a true blue collar worker that will appear to fit this team perfectly.



Third, no one is saying we need to be perfect or that other teams are perfect. But most teams have more depth and less mediocrity than we do, and regardless of other teams, its' about what we did/didn't do in the off-season to get better. And we didn't do enough to be more competitive this year.

Most teams??? Once again, you keep throwing generalizations out there and when I ask you to back it up, you say you can't b'cse you don't know teams well enough. If you can't back this up, stop throwing this generalization out. If most teams have more depth and mediocrity than we do...then tell me who...give me examples, I want to expose these teams that have somehow pulled the wool over your eyes!



Fourth, the better offense will help TO A POINT- but the D still has to be on the field. Even the SB champs with a high-powered offense struggled for a while when their D couldn't get it done on the field.

Okay, so then don't say we didn't improve b'cse with what you just said above, we have improved!!!

[OpIv37]

Yes, Op, let's look at stats. You keep ignoring the one stat that really matters - our #10 ranking in our D letting other offenses score.



Ellison came in and did well starting as a rookie. Pos has been said to be very intelligent, with a hard working ethic. Considering Fletch was a good 5 yds past the scrimmage line on every tackle he did, I don't think Pos can do much worse. He's younger, faster and maybe just as intelligent when it comes to football. He's a true blue collar worker that will appear to fit this team perfectly.



Most teams??? Once again, you keep throwing generalizations out there and when I ask you to back it up, you say you can't b'cse you don't know teams well enough. If you can't back this up, stop throwing this generalization out. If most teams have more depth and mediocrity than we do...then tell me who...give me examples, I want to expose these teams that have somehow pulled the wool over your eyes!



Okay, so then don't say we didn't improve b'cse with what you just said above, we have improved!!!

You didn't say 10 in points- you said excels at TURNOVERS. You never said anything about points. You don't get to change your preferred stat after I refuted it- nice try though And I'm not ignoring it- I addressed it at least once in this thread. If opposing offenses only score 17 but control the ball for 40 minutes because we can't stop the run to get off the field, #10 in points doesn't matter because our O won't have the chance to answer the few points we do allow. This fact is exasperated by the excellent D's we have to play.

Ellison is overrated around here. He's average. Maybe he'll improve, maybe he won't, but don't expect great things. Poz will be good for us in time, but it's unreasonable to expect him to come in and take over Fletch's leadership role immediately while also trying to adjust to the NFL.

As far as other teams: We drafted 12th this year and 8th last year. What does that tell you? And it's not about other teams- it's about improving OUR team. We saw where we were last year and what we've done in the off season- IMO it's simply not enough. We don't have to be perfect, but we can't expect to be successful with the number of holes and amount of mediocrity we currently have.

I never said the offense didn't improve because on paper they have. The D is likely to improve in some areas but regress in other areas, and overall we simply didn't do enough to fix the D.

[mysticsoto]

You didn't say 10 in points- you said excels at TURNOVERS. You never said anything about points. You don't get to change your preferred stat after I refuted it- nice try though And I'm not ignoring it- I addressed it at least once in this thread. If opposing offenses only score 17 but control the ball for 40 minutes because we can't stop the run to get off the field, #10 in points doesn't matter because our O won't have the chance to answer the few points we do allow. This fact is exasperated by the excellent D's we have to play.
Numerous things contribute to being #10. Turnovers is certainly one aspect. Actually stopping the team is another. A multitude of factors come in to play and if we stop the other team from scoring most of the time who cares if they occasionally break out some runs against us. We stop them most of the time in a variety of different ways...that's what counts! You're spoiled by the old PW and SA days!!!



Ellison is overrated around here. He's average. Maybe he'll improve, maybe he won't, but don't expect great things. Poz will be good for us in time, but it's unreasonable to expect him to come in and take over Fletch's leadership role immediately while also trying to adjust to the NFL.

As far as other teams: We drafted 12th this year and 8th last year. What does that tell you? And it's not about other teams- it's about improving OUR team. We saw where we were last year and what we've done in the off season- IMO it's simply not enough. We don't have to be perfect, but we can't expect to be successful with the number of holes and amount of mediocrity we currently have.
What does it tell me? It tells me we improved somewhat. And this in a year where we had a difficult schedule. Once again, we will have a difficult schedule and have alot to overcome, but we're not in the NFC and we're not going to get into the playoffs as easily.



I never said the offense didn't improve because on paper they have. The D is likely to improve in some areas but regress in other areas, and overall we simply didn't do enough to fix the D.
Good. We're making progress. The D is likely to improve in some areas, regress in others...now that is the nature of football. And this happens on EVERY team. Sometimes without even change of personnel (see the Steelers last year). Welcome to the NFL.

[feelthepain]

I don't need FTP to validate my pessimism- the way the Bills perform on the field usually validates it just fine.

And when the Bills performance on the field stops validating pessimism, I won't be so pessimistic.

Something many Bill fans know, but won't accept. Such homers like Justa, who also troll other boards with it's homer opinions and bias views. Then acts like anyone who does the same on this board is somehow breaking a law....justacrybaby!! And OBTW,Justawhiner isn't liked by many Bill fans and has even less supporters for it's bias BS views, but it's typical for such a worthless waist of flesh to point fingers. It's what it does when it has nothing left to say.

[Dr. Lecter]

You accuse him of homer opinions but still claim Duante is a top 3 QB in this league?????

[patmoran2006]

Something many Bill fans know, but won't accept. Such homers like Justa, who also troll other boards with it's homer opinions and bias views. Then acts like anyone who does the same on this board is somehow breaking a law....justacrybaby!! And OBTW,Justawhiner isn't liked by many Bill fans and has even less supporters for it's bias BS views, but it's typical for such a worthless waist of flesh to point fingers. It's what it does when it has nothing left to say.
Justa doesnt have opinions and views on football unless its Rah-Rah Marv time.. He just talks smack about posters, that's obvious.. ..

but you are even worse; because you troll another team's message board when your team is a total laughinstock. Now if NE39 or CuseJetsFan wanted to come on this board and talk all kinds of smack, they'd have a right (though it would still be ignorant)... but you... You sound like a tool.. That's like calling someone a smack addict, while your sitting there with track marks in your arm.

[feelthepain]

Justa doesnt have opinions and views on football unless its Rah-Rah Marv time.. He just talks smack about posters, that's obvious.. ..

but you are even worse; because you troll another team's message board when your team is a total laughinstock. Now if NE39 or CuseJetsFan wanted to come on this board and talk all kinds of smack, they'd have a right (though it would still be ignorant)... but you... You sound like a tool.. That's like calling someone a smack addict, while your sitting there with track marks in your arm.

Ya know, you need to come out of this fantasy you seem to be stuck in. I love how the Dolphins are a luaghing stock and the Bills are the ones who can't beat winning teams, dump a bunch of starters and are hoping their second and third stringers will somehow become starters. Good luck with that.

[gr8slayer]

Ya know, you need to come out of this fantasy you seem to be stuck in. I love how the Dolphins are a luaghing stock and the Bills are the ones who can't beat winning teams, dump a bunch of starters and are hoping their second and third stringers will somehow become starters. Good luck with that.
Yet we can still kick your ass. Get out of your fantasy world your team is worse off than ours is..