Our Defensive Weak (Right) Side...Scary Thoughts

[raphael120]

Here is what our weak side of our defense looks like thus far:

RE: Schobel (awesome)
WLB: Keith Ellison or Coy Wire (The epic battle between crap and a turd)
RCB: Kiwi Thomas or Ashton Youboty (Big, looming question mark)
SS: Donte Whitner (solid...hopefully)

I am absolutley TERRIFIED that our right side of the defense is going to blow major CHUNKS this season. We have an unproven semi-rookie in Youboty manning the CB position, or a no big play impact guy in Kiwi Thomas.

At RE, I'm happy with Schobel, but also worried about the fact that he is not good at all on run-D, which means whoever is behind Schobel (Ellison/Wire and Thomas/Youboty) is going to be responsible for anyone running or passing to that side.

We have a "well he didnt stink it up, thank God" 6th round choice Ellison who is purportedly duking it out with Coy "I haven't done jack crap since my rookie season" Wire at WLB. I dont know what should scare me more, that Wire might actually beat our Ellison at this position, or that we just have those 2 guys playing for that starting position. Please Marv, get someone else in there that is not joe-schmo from Lackawanna High School UDFA who plays awesome flag football.

And I hope Whitner grows from last year, or we could be in deep doo-doo when it comes to our run D next year if teams exploit the obvious weakness on the right side of the Bills defense.

Like I've said before...I REALLY hope our offense is better than last year, because no one should be counting on the defense to be making as near big plays (INTs, FUM, good field position) as they did last year. You take away what Fletch and Clements did last year, and you lose 2 sacks, 7 INTs, 2 Def. TD, 23 Pass Def. between those two vets.

Meanwhile, if you look at what Ellison/Crowell and McGee gave us last year in terms of big plays: 3 sacks, 3 INTs, 0 Def. TDs, 17 pass def.

BTW...did anyone ever actually see that McGee had 0 sacks and 0 INTs last season? Thats pretty pathetic if you ask me...

Just some stats to think about....

[Elminster]

Stopped reading when you said Ellison was crap....

[madness]

Stopped reading when you said Ellison was crap....

Me too.

[raphael120]

Ellison starting just goes to show how bad our depth at LB is. I just dont think him beating out Coy Wire is a good gauge at how "great" he is.

[Goobylal]

When did Ellison compete against Wire, much less beat him out? His play last year was excellent, especially for a rookie, much less a 6th round pick, much much less a guy who missed almost all of the OTA's and mini-camps.

[madness]

:goodpost:

[Slim]

The weak side still gets help. MLB, FS, thats part of there jobs.

[Devin]

Ive been saying for months I think Ellison is going to be a solid weakside guy for a 6th rounder who saw the amount of time his rookie year I was impressed. If he builds on that and improves this year I believe we will be just fine.

[Night Train]

For those who actually watched the Buffalo Bills football team in the NFL last season, Ellison was far and away our best open field tackler.

Thrown to the wolves, I was shocked how well he played. With Paul Poz slated to play MLB and able to persue from sideline to sideline, I'm thinking we're better than last year with Fletcher and a crippled Spikes.

[Michael82]

For those who actually watched the Buffalo Bills football team in the NFL last season, Ellison was far and away our best open field tackler.

Thrown to the wolves, I was shocked how well he played. With Paul Poz slated to play MLB and able to persue from sideline to sideline, I'm thinking we're better than last year with Fletcher and a crippled Spikes.
:bf1:

[raphael120]

When did Ellison compete against Wire, much less beat him out? His play last year was excellent, especially for a rookie, much less a 6th round pick, much much less a guy who missed almost all of the OTA's and mini-camps.


1. He filled in the LB core before Wire did, and

2. He's clearly competing against Wire for the spot again this season, as per BB.com

[raphael120]

For those who actually watched the Buffalo Bills football team in the NFL last season, Ellison was far and away our best open field tackler.

Thrown to the wolves, I was shocked how well he played. With Paul Poz slated to play MLB and able to persue from sideline to sideline, I'm thinking we're better than last year with Fletcher and a crippled Spikes.

When you're a fast, light rookie playing with old man Fletcher and hobbled Spikes, yeah you're going to be the better open field tackler because of your youth and speed. He played admirally, yes, for a 6th rounder. If he was a 2nd, 3rd rounder, you'd expect more though. He's getting a flyer last season because he played good ENOUGH and exceeded beyond a normally huge bust that 6th rounders usually are. But to say that he automatically is good enough to be a full time starter and be anything more than Jeff "I make no impact" Posey...I'm not sure.

My point is, I'm not happy with our LB depth and I think we need someone else brought in to give Ellison a run for his money. And if you think Coy Wire competing with him is giving him a run for his money...then please...tell me why do you think that?

[Devin]

Depth id agree with, however I think Ellison will be just fine there.

[raphael120]

Depth id agree with, however I think Ellison will be just fine there.

Don't you think Ellison will have his plate full when he's working with (possibly) Youboty on his side, who will take his lumps being a starter for the first time, or even with Kiwaukee on that side who is no better than a nickel corner? That's what my origional post was about...sure Ellison might be good, but I think his side of the field will make up the weak spot of our defense because of its inexperience.

Some of you just want to shoot down my post and not even hear me out...hate it when people don't want to listen, shows close mindedness. Yet you want everyone to "trust in Marv". Why? "Because I said so!" Nice intelligent retort.

[X-Era]

Here is what our weak side of our defense looks like thus far:

RE: Schobel (awesome)
WLB: Keith Ellison or Coy Wire (The epic battle between crap and a turd)
RCB: Kiwi Thomas or Ashton Youboty (Big, looming question mark)
SS: Donte Whitner (solid...hopefully)

I am absolutley TERRIFIED that our right side of the defense is going to blow major CHUNKS this season. We have an unproven semi-rookie in Youboty manning the CB position, or a no big play impact guy in Kiwi Thomas.

At RE, I'm happy with Schobel, but also worried about the fact that he is not good at all on run-D, which means whoever is behind Schobel (Ellison/Wire and Thomas/Youboty) is going to be responsible for anyone running or passing to that side.

We have a "well he didnt stink it up, thank God" 6th round choice Ellison who is purportedly duking it out with Coy "I haven't done jack crap since my rookie season" Wire at WLB. I dont know what should scare me more, that Wire might actually beat our Ellison at this position, or that we just have those 2 guys playing for that starting position. Please Marv, get someone else in there that is not joe-schmo from Lackawanna High School UDFA who plays awesome flag football.

And I hope Whitner grows from last year, or we could be in deep doo-doo when it comes to our run D next year if teams exploit the obvious weakness on the right side of the Bills defense.

Like I've said before...I REALLY hope our offense is better than last year, because no one should be counting on the defense to be making as near big plays (INTs, FUM, good field position) as they did last year. You take away what Fletch and Clements did last year, and you lose 2 sacks, 7 INTs, 2 Def. TD, 23 Pass Def. between those two vets.

Meanwhile, if you look at what Ellison/Crowell and McGee gave us last year in terms of big plays: 3 sacks, 3 INTs, 0 Def. TDs, 17 pass def.

BTW...did anyone ever actually see that McGee had 0 sacks and 0 INTs last season? Thats pretty pathetic if you ask me...

Just some stats to think about....

Ellison is crap if you read Fantasy football rankings. That means in "fantasy" world, hes crap.

Of course, that would be using the well known measuring stick of the media making him a popular name. You see, popular name = star. Forget actually watching the games, you just have to watch the highlight reels and if the player in question doesnt make ESPN highlights, they must be crap.

Im sorry, but I think there are many unheralded players that are plenty good enough to start on teams that can and sometimes do win it all.

Are we short on star talent? yes. Does that mean what we have is all crap? no. I think Ellison is plenty good enough to start. I think hes a solid LB. Not a star, a solid LB.

The CB spot is a real issue. We have not replaced even a mediocre Clements, much less a Clements that can sometimes play like a star. We have down graded the spot.

Every team has losses every year. They also have gains in other spots. Its possible that Yobouty plays up to talent level and becomes a solid starter. The reverse is just as possible. We will have to just wait and see.

[Buffalogic]

Stopped reading when you said Ellison was crap....Lol I did too. Just started scrolling down after I read that drivel.

[Goobylal]

Don't you think Ellison will have his plate full when he's working with (possibly) Youboty on his side, who will take his lumps being a starter for the first time, or even with Kiwaukee on that side who is no better than a nickel corner? That's what my origional post was about...sure Ellison might be good, but I think his side of the field will make up the weak spot of our defense because of its inexperience.

Some of you just want to shoot down my post and not even hear me out...hate it when people don't want to listen, shows close mindedness. Yet you want everyone to "trust in Marv". Why? "Because I said so!" Nice intelligent retort.
I heard you out. If you were really trying to say that you aren't happy with the LB'er depth, than yes, I agree with you. But Ellison played well for a rookie PERIOD last year, and outside of Hawk (1st rounder) and Ryans (first pick of 2nd round), I'd dare you to name any other LB'ers who did as well last year, much less for a guy who as I said missed most of the OTA's and minicamps and who was never given starters reps like the other 2 guys (Ellison was actually 3rd on the depth chart when pre-season started). And the cover-2 isn't a piece of cake for even vets to pickup quickly.

As for the Wire thing, Wire was the opening day starter at SS last year and was moved to LB mid-season. Hence he didn't compete with Ellison in camp last year. And sure he'll compete with him this year. Big deal. John DiGiorgio will compete with Poz. What does it mean?

[Night Train]

The depth concern is a valid issue. Coy Wire is not my idea of a quality backup whatsoever.

I'll wait until camp and pre-season plays itself out before declaring certain positions a disaster. Lots of time to make moves or for somebody to step up.

[raphael120]

The depth concern is a valid issue. Coy Wire is not my idea of a quality backup whatsoever.

I'll wait until camp and pre-season plays itself out before declaring certain positions a disaster. Lots of time to make moves or for somebody to step up.

Yeah, I am actually pulling for Ellison to beat our Wire. If he doesnt, then I think we can officially be worried about our LBs.

[raphael120]

But Ellison played well for a rookie PERIOD last year, and outside of Hawk (1st rounder) and Ryans (first pick of 2nd round), I'd dare you to name any other LB'ers who did as well last year, much less for a guy who as I said missed most of the OTA's and minicamps and who was never given starters reps like the other 2 guys

You know what, after researching I realize youre right with that. Ellison did play pretty good, when you compare them to his fellow rookies that were drafted last year. Let's hope thats not a fluke!

[Goobylal]

The best things about Ellison are that he's super smart and he's got a great work ethic. That's why he was was played in place of Spikes when he went down early in the season opener, despite as I said him being 3rd on the depth chart going into pre-season. With a full year under his belt of getting comfortable with being in the NFL, learning the playbook, going to all the OTA's and minicamps as the starter, and being in the strength and conditioning program, he'll only get better.

[Wys Guy]

For those who actually watched the Buffalo Bills football team in the NFL last season, Ellison was far and away our best open field tackler.

Most of Ellison's tackles were over the last four games last season. NYJ, MIA, TEN, BAL

Against the Jets his tackles were against Cedric Houston and Leon Washington and averaged over 5 yards.

Most of his tackles in the Miami game were on Morris.

Against the Titans most of his tackles were on Lendale White and Ahmard Hall and averaged 8 yards per play.

He did a pretty good job of shutting down Jamal Lewis, but so did everybody else.

So is that supposed to be impressive?

It was tough to sort out his solos vs. his assisted since the stats had more of his tackles listed with someone assisting and fewer solo than his profile stats say.

Otherwise, if statements like that are going to be made, then shouldn't we look at the details? I'd say those are pertinent. He only started in three other games and barely played otherwise.

[Devin]

Don't you think Ellison will have his plate full when he's working with (possibly) Youboty on his side, who will take his lumps being a starter for the first time, or even with Kiwaukee on that side who is no better than a nickel corner? That's what my origional post was about...sure Ellison might be good, but I think his side of the field will make up the weak spot of our defense because of its inexperience.

Some of you just want to shoot down my post and not even hear me out...hate it when people don't want to listen, shows close mindedness. Yet you want everyone to "trust in Marv". Why? "Because I said so!" Nice intelligent retort.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, i dont bash that at all. I respectfully disagree.

I think Youboty may surprise people this year but either way our defense is most certainly a bend dont break D. We arent going to blow anyone out the water apart maybe the fins :snicker: . At any rate, truthfully im not that worried.

[Tatonka]

Stopped reading when you said Ellison was crap....

yeah.. i did too.. i have had enough of the "here is my whiny ***** post" threads.. they are pretty dull.

[Tatonka]

The best things about Ellison are that he's super smart and he's got a great work ethic. That's why he was was played in place of Spikes when he went down early in the season opener, despite as I said him being 3rd on the depth chart going into pre-season. With a full year under his belt of getting comfortable with being in the NFL, learning the playbook, going to all the OTA's and minicamps as the starter, and being in the strength and conditioning program, he'll only get better.

no no.. hes a turd.. didnt you read? :rolleyes:

[Tatonka]

Some of you just want to shoot down my post and not even hear me out...hate it when people don't want to listen, shows close mindedness. Yet you want everyone to "trust in Marv". Why? "Because I said so!" Nice intelligent retort.

some people want to ***** and moan about everything and i really have no patience for a post that refers to one of our starting linebackers as a turd.. if people want a turd.. they can read your post..

an intelligent post would have realized that there is alot more to be excited about ellison than there is to cry about.

[Jan Reimers]

Another thread crucifying a young player - actually, three players - because after one season, they are not All Pro. I say three players, because Youboty and Whitner are not treated too kindly by the thread-starter, either.

In fact, Ellison and Whitner played well enough last year to lead any rational fan to believe they will be even better this season. Youboty IS a question mark, but the fact that the Bills were in no hurry to replace him on draft day at least says they have seen enough of him to think he can play.

One of the consistent themes of the negative element on this board is to ***** and whine when we don't sign name veterans to fill open positions, criticize the rookies who instead man those positions, and then igore the fact that good young players develop and improve quickly in this league.

I'd rather build a team with quality young guys than aging has-beens as in the Adams-Milloy-Vincent era.

[Night Train]

So is that supposed to be impressive?

It was tough to sort out his solos vs. his assisted since the stats had more of his tackles listed with someone assisting and fewer solo than his profile stats say.

Otherwise, if statements like that are going to be made, then shouldn't we look at the details? I'd say those are pertinent. He only started in three other games and barely played otherwise.

Weiler, I'm quite aware of his actual playing time and I'm simply making an observation of his uncanny ability to wrap up tacklers when in the general area of the football.

He was a 6th round rookie playing far more than expected and has lots to learn. Having said that, he does have an actual upside in a Cover 2 D which allows him to run and make plays despite his less than ideal size. Speed and smarts makes him a good fit in this scheme.

[Stewie]

donte whitner plays on the strong side

thats better for your argument though because FS simpson sucks.

[mybills]

You know what, after researching I realize youre right with that. Ellison did play pretty good, when you compare them to his fellow rookies that were drafted last year. Let's hope thats not a fluke!
..and MaGee will be fine like he was the year before..last year was a fluke.

[mayotm]

Sorry folks. There isn't any real competition between Ellison and Wire. Just because there is some fluff piece on BB.COM doesn't mean a damn thing. It's May, there's simply nothing more important for Chris Brown to write about. Ellison is the starter and I expect that he will be solid.

[mayotm]

Most of Ellison's tackles were over the last four games last season. NYJ, MIA, TEN, BAL

Against the Jets his tackles were against Cedric Houston and Leon Washington and averaged over 5 yards.

Most of his tackles in the Miami game were on Morris.

Against the Titans most of his tackles were on Lendale White and Ahmard Hall and averaged 8 yards per play.

He did a pretty good job of shutting down Jamal Lewis, but so did everybody else.

So is that supposed to be impressive?

It was tough to sort out his solos vs. his assisted since the stats had more of his tackles listed with someone assisting and fewer solo than his profile stats say.

Otherwise, if statements like that are going to be made, then shouldn't we look at the details? I'd say those are pertinent. He only started in three other games and barely played otherwise.Yeah, but if you subtracted their best runs, multiplied that by 2, then subtracted 7, their YPG was only 3.9. You have an uncanny abilitiy to manipulate statistics to support your opinion. You should have been an Enron account.

[Wys Guy]

Weiler, I'm quite aware of his actual playing time and I'm simply making an observation of his uncanny ability to wrap up tacklers when in the general area of the football.

He was a 6th round rookie playing far more than expected and has lots to learn. Having said that, he does have an actual upside in a Cover 2 D which allows him to run and make plays despite his less than ideal size. Speed and smarts makes him a good fit in this scheme.

Please, call me Wys here. If I wanted to post under a different name I would. ;)

To your points:

I figured you were, just emphasizing the finer points. Please don't take it personally either.

For example, for several seasons now I've stated that simple tackles (by Fletcher for example) cannot be considered in a vacuum because of the difference in opportunities provided to make such tackles. I find it interesting that everyone disagreed with me formerly but now that Fletcher's gone many of those same people all of a sudden agree with the sentiment.

Clearly on a team that allows 58 defense plays vice 66 defensive plays, (132 total on the season) the delta between the fewest (NO) and most (TEN) teams, players, particularly for a MLB, the potential exists to make more tackles. Fletcher's been good but not great as I've pointed out often. Yet, everyone always referred to his numbers of tackles as pretty much the sole indicator to his "effectiveness."

One must look at other things however. Where are they made, 7 yards into the defensive backfield, or behind the LoS. Likewise, many rave about Kelsay's sacks. But look at them. He, Walker, Tripplett, all of them have a knack for sacking the worst QBs on the worst offenses in games where we load up on sacks. What we need are opportune sacks in games where that are close perhaps to give us an edge, not "more sacks" in games already won and over and on QBs that it really shouldn't be any kind of feather in one's cap if they log a sack on. (Bledsoe e.g.)

To put this in Ellison's context, to be honest I didn't really watch him and his "open field tackling ability" but I'll pay particular attention to it this season. What we do know is that he rarely made tackles for a loss or close to the LoS except in the Ravens game which the Ravens played tremendously conservatively. It was my one road game to attend last season. (Great stadium BTW) You've probably been there.

I simply didn't see much from him like so many others say that they have. Whatever he did provide was not exactly against the league's offensive creme de la creme either. As pointed out, he really did little until the last four games of the season. Interestingly that's when Spikes began to rebound too making me wonder how much that played into it. Regardless, his only substantial games in that way, and again, not all that substantial per my initial post here, were against the league's 17th, 20th, 25th, and 27th yardage offenses.

He does have upside as you say. A good fit? What's a "good fit?"

To me a "good fit" is a player that produces. He hasn't done that yet. All young players have upside. We've had "good fits" come and go here like people going through a revolving door at JC Penney's great white sale.

Pennington has a ton of upside IMO yet he's pretty much been yanked pending further review. He certainly doesn't look to be playing RT where he's been replaced by someone that has only played poorly there, much worse for sure, throughout his career. The team tells us that he (Walker) is a "good fit" there. Believe them? I'll make the prediction right now that both, Walker is a failure at RT and that Pennington ends up replacing him if the team doesn't release him first. Yanking him like that can be terminally damaging to a young (2nd year) player's career. It's certainly no encouragement in a season whereby he played better than Walker ever has.

There's gotta be hundreds of unemployed players (free agents) that are a "good fit" for a cover 2. Can/will they produce however. Ellison did not for the most part unless one merely takes one or two oversimplified measures and highlights those while ignoring any and all details behind them.

I agree with you that he has upside and potential, but if last season was the window for us to look into, then he's got a long way to go to become even an average LB in the NFL. Will he? He may very well. The fact that according to the team he has Wire "breathing down his back" at WLB isn't any sort of endorsement to me. Who is Wire to be putting such pressure on anyone? Ellison had one INT on an underthrown ball that went right to him and only one pass defensed last season. The PD was against William Henderson who was 35 and currently a free agent who may not even play this year. There may be hope, but those are hardly stats that make him an odds on favorite to become the next Lance Briggs to be sure. Otherwise fans wouldn't be jacked at the notion of getting Briggs here. If Briggs came, then what would that say about the team's belief in Ellison's "potential."

Any number of our players could step up and do "this or that." We certainly have a good number of players that really need to do that for one reason or others:

Lynch, Schouman, JP, a second WR, L. Walker, Preston, Fowler, any TE, Kelsay, Tripplett, McCargo, Williams, D. Walker, Crowell, Ellison, Posluszny, Youboty, Whitner, Simpson, McGee, Thomas.

Anyone or more of those players may step up. All of them will not however with, if we're lucky, them all falling under a normal curve as history has shown that we've not been on the favorable end of that theory either.

[Wys Guy]

Sorry folks. There isn't any real competition between Ellison and Wire. Just because there is some fluff piece on BB.COM doesn't mean a damn thing. It's May, there's simply nothing more important for Chris Brown to write about. Ellison is the starter and I expect that he will be solid.
But everything else the team tells you is all on the up and up, huh.

;)

[casdhf]

You forgot to take out his best games, Mark.

[mayotm]

But everything else the team tells you is all on the up and up, huh.

;)Sorry dude. You must be mistaken me with somebody else. I'm well aware that most pieces on BB.COM are fluff. However, the articles are still far better than the crap you write.

[YardRat]

He played admirally, yes, for a 6th rounder.

Generally speaking, it's my private opinion that if Ellison can show a colonel of ability at inflicting corporal punishment on opposing major players than he could warrant a shot at becoming a captain of the defense.

[The Spaz]

But everything else the team tells you is all on the up and up, huh.

;)

I'll take them over yours anyday of the week.

[Goobylal]

To put this in Ellison's context, to be honest I didn't really watch him and his "open field tackling ability" but I'll pay particular attention to it this season.
:rolleyes:

[Tatonka]

oh god.. i knew mark was back when i saw how long the post was.. :rofl:


Please, call me Wys here. If I wanted to post under a different name I would. ;)

To your points:

I figured you were, just emphasizing the finer points. Please don't take it personally either.

For example, for several seasons now I've stated that simple tackles (by Fletcher for example) cannot be considered in a vacuum because of the difference in opportunities provided to make such tackles. I find it interesting that everyone disagreed with me formerly but now that Fletcher's gone many of those same people all of a sudden agree with the sentiment.

Clearly on a team that allows 58 defense plays vice 66 defensive plays, (132 total on the season) the delta between the fewest (NO) and most (TEN) teams, players, particularly for a MLB, the potential exists to make more tackles. Fletcher's been good but not great as I've pointed out often. Yet, everyone always referred to his numbers of tackles as pretty much the sole indicator to his "effectiveness."

One must look at other things however. Where are they made, 7 yards into the defensive backfield, or behind the LoS. Likewise, many rave about Kelsay's sacks. But look at them. He, Walker, Tripplett, all of them have a knack for sacking the worst QBs on the worst offenses in games where we load up on sacks. What we need are opportune sacks in games where that are close perhaps to give us an edge, not "more sacks" in games already won and over and on QBs that it really shouldn't be any kind of feather in one's cap if they log a sack on. (Bledsoe e.g.)

To put this in Ellison's context, to be honest I didn't really watch him and his "open field tackling ability" but I'll pay particular attention to it this season. What we do know is that he rarely made tackles for a loss or close to the LoS except in the Ravens game which the Ravens played tremendously conservatively. It was my one road game to attend last season. (Great stadium BTW) You've probably been there.

I simply didn't see much from him like so many others say that they have. Whatever he did provide was not exactly against the league's offensive creme de la creme either. As pointed out, he really did little until the last four games of the season. Interestingly that's when Spikes began to rebound too making me wonder how much that played into it. Regardless, his only substantial games in that way, and again, not all that substantial per my initial post here, were against the league's 17th, 20th, 25th, and 27th yardage offenses.

He does have upside as you say. A good fit? What's a "good fit?"

To me a "good fit" is a player that produces. He hasn't done that yet. All young players have upside. We've had "good fits" come and go here like people going through a revolving door at JC Penney's great white sale.

Pennington has a ton of upside IMO yet he's pretty much been yanked pending further review. He certainly doesn't look to be playing RT where he's been replaced by someone that has only played poorly there, much worse for sure, throughout his career. The team tells us that he (Walker) is a "good fit" there. Believe them? I'll make the prediction right now that both, Walker is a failure at RT and that Pennington ends up replacing him if the team doesn't release him first. Yanking him like that can be terminally damaging to a young (2nd year) player's career. It's certainly no encouragement in a season whereby he played better than Walker ever has.

There's gotta be hundreds of unemployed players (free agents) that are a "good fit" for a cover 2. Can/will they produce however. Ellison did not for the most part unless one merely takes one or two oversimplified measures and highlights those while ignoring any and all details behind them.

I agree with you that he has upside and potential, but if last season was the window for us to look into, then he's got a long way to go to become even an average LB in the NFL. Will he? He may very well. The fact that according to the team he has Wire "breathing down his back" at WLB isn't any sort of endorsement to me. Who is Wire to be putting such pressure on anyone? Ellison had one INT on an underthrown ball that went right to him and only one pass defensed last season. The PD was against William Henderson who was 35 and currently a free agent who may not even play this year. There may be hope, but those are hardly stats that make him an odds on favorite to become the next Lance Briggs to be sure. Otherwise fans wouldn't be jacked at the notion of getting Briggs here. If Briggs came, then what would that say about the team's belief in Ellison's "potential."

Any number of our players could step up and do "this or that." We certainly have a good number of players that really need to do that for one reason or others:

Lynch, Schouman, JP, a second WR, L. Walker, Preston, Fowler, any TE, Kelsay, Tripplett, McCargo, Williams, D. Walker, Crowell, Ellison, Posluszny, Youboty, Whitner, Simpson, McGee, Thomas.

Anyone or more of those players may step up. All of them will not however with, if we're lucky, them all falling under a normal curve as history has shown that we've not been on the favorable end of that theory either.

[Tatonka]

Sorry dude. You must be mistaken me with somebody else. I'm well aware that most pieces on BB.COM are fluff. However, the articles are still far better than the crap you write.

Mayotm has a point.:respect:

[Mr. Pink]

I heard you out. If you were really trying to say that you aren't happy with the LB'er depth, than yes, I agree with you. But Ellison played well for a rookie PERIOD last year, and outside of Hawk (1st rounder) and Ryans (first pick of 2nd round), I'd dare you to name any other LB'ers who did as well last year, much less for a guy who as I said missed most of the OTA's and minicamps and who was never given starters reps like the other 2 guys (Ellison was actually 3rd on the depth chart when pre-season started). And the cover-2 isn't a piece of cake for even vets to pickup quickly.

As for the Wire thing, Wire was the opening day starter at SS last year and was moved to LB mid-season. Hence he didn't compete with Ellison in camp last year. And sure he'll compete with him this year. Big deal. John DiGiorgio will compete with Poz. What does it mean?

Had to bite on this one....

Kamerion Wimbley 62 tackles 11 sacks
D'Qwell Jackson 93 tackles 60 solo

There's 2 more LBers that produced as rookies. I only know them both because they played for the Browns. I can't think of any other LBers around the league that did well though as rookies.

I like Ellison, he performed well for a 6th round pick, but I'm not sure if that's good enough for what's needed. And when you only have a Coy Wire to push him to make the starting roster, it's a scary thought.

[Goobylal]

Had to bite on this one....

Kamerion Wimbley 62 tackles 11 sacks
D'Qwell Jackson 93 tackles 60 solo

There's 2 more LBers that produced as rookies. I only know them both because they played for the Browns. I can't think of any other LBers around the league that did well though as rookies.

I like Ellison, he performed well for a 6th round pick, but I'm not sure if that's good enough for what's needed. And when you only have a Coy Wire to push him to make the starting roster, it's a scary thought.
Well that sort of goes with what I was saying. Wimbley was a high 1st rounder and Jackson was picked one spot after Ryans, making them essentially late 1st rounders. And all were projected starters and getting starter reps. Moreover none of the 1st/early 2nd LB'ers played in the cover-2.

And again I'm going by what Marv said when he said that players make their biggest jump between their 1st and 2nd years. They can play more with their instincts rather than overthinking stuff.

[justasportsfan]

Lol I did too. Just started scrolling down after I read that drivel.


haha! Same here. scrolled right down to see who thanked him. Thought OP would but even worse, FTP and Henrybacker. :snicker:

[justasportsfan]

Most of Ellison's tackles were over the last four games last season. NYJ, MIA, TEN, BAL

Against the Jets his tackles were against Cedric Houston and Leon Washington and averaged over 5 yards.

Most of his tackles in the Miami game were on Morris.

Against the Titans most of his tackles were on Lendale White and Ahmard Hall and averaged 8 yards per play.

He did a pretty good job of shutting down Jamal Lewis, but so did everybody else.

So is that supposed to be impressive?

It was tough to sort out his solos vs. his assisted since the stats had more of his tackles listed with someone assisting and fewer solo than his profile stats say.

Otherwise, if statements like that are going to be made, then shouldn't we look at the details? I'd say those are pertinent. He only started in three other games and barely played otherwise.


so like wys. Looks for the worst in everything. Yup, the bills sure finished it's franchuse worse like you predicted last season . I'm sure you'll keep predicting the worse til you finally get it right.:rolleyes:

[raphael120]

Ok, what about Pennington? He played "admirably" too, as everyone was saying last year. Then be bring some bum from Oakland to play RT and before competition even begins, he's replaced the 7th round RT.

What the point of the post was, was that we're SETTLING for Ellison at OLB now, because we brought no one in that is any decent competition that we have 2 depth players playing for a starting spot, and I don't feel too confident in Ellison in this whole young system. He was drafted in the 6th round for a reason, and THAT's what bothers me. And Wys has some points, but I just really hate how this board is becoming a roast fest and not a mature debate...but whatever...

I guess thats what I get for hangin around a board that has 13 year old dorks on it that want to try to act cool because they don't know how to in real life. But I respect Goobs opinion, and I applaud those who have intellectually came back with facts and observations...it's how this board should be and not a flaming fest. I never crucified our players, I'm just really not sold on the left side of our defense. Yeah theyre young, but thats part of the problem. We have a 2 supposed starters, that between the two have a total of 12 starts. That's not exactly encouraging...

[raphael120]

I like Ellison, he performed well for a 6th round pick, but I'm not sure if that's good enough for what's needed. And when you only have a Coy Wire to push him to make the starting roster, it's a scary thought.

And that's what my point is. It IS a scary thought. I've seen Coy Wire blowing it BIGTIME in the endzone WAY too many times for me to believe he is HONEST competition for this Ellison kid. I'm just not convinced if he comes out the winner in training camp when he is competing against such scrubs. Our depth is so bad we're taking people in positions and trying to think they can play other positions on the field like this Wendling guy, trying to make him a CB. We wouldnt need to be playing musical chairs with our roster if we had PRO's at certain positions and not player of many positions but masters of none.

[raphael120]

so like wys. Looks for the worst in everything. Yup, the bills sure finished it's franchuse worse like you predicted last season . I'm sure you'll keep predicting the worse til you finally get it right.:rolleyes:


So he's gotten it wrong the past few years when the Bills have had losing seasons and had horrible stat rankings?

[ParanoidAndroid]

Ok, what about Pennington? He played "admirably" too, as everyone was saying last year. Then be bring some bum from Oakland to play RT and before competition even begins, he's replaced the 7th round RT.

What the point of the post was, was that we're SETTLING for Ellison at OLB now, because we brought no one in that is any decent competition that we have 2 depth players playing for a starting spot, and I don't feel too confident in Ellison in this whole young system. He was drafted in the 6th round for a reason, and THAT's what bothers me. And Wys has some points, but I just really hate how this board is becoming a roast fest and not a mature debate...but whatever...

I guess thats what I get for hangin around a board that has 13 year old dorks on it that want to try to act cool because they don't know how to in real life. But I respect Goobs opinion, and I applaud those who have intellectually came back with facts and observations...it's how this board should be and not a flaming fest. I never crucified our players, I'm just really not sold on the left side of our defense. Yeah theyre young, but thats part of the problem. We have a 2 supposed starters, that between the two have a total of 12 starts. That's not exactly encouraging...

I'm not sure Pennington played well. We kept the TE in for help and then we completely stopped trying to run right.

Ellison, on the other hand, played fairly well. He likely is the weakest link among our projected starters, but I'm actually looking forward to watching him. His tackles may have been down the field, but I think that that is a tell tale symptom of a weak D-line, especially considering none of our LB's were making tackles at the LOS. It is unfair to single out Ellison in that regard. It also of note that he was very good in coverage and has excellent playing speed. I actually did watch him.

The D-line was supposed to be able to penetrate and disrupt running plays. It rarely did that. Some of the few successful attempts at that were made by Williams and McCargo (just before the injury)...rookies. We're still not where we need to be unless those two play better at the point with their added mass. I say added mass, but who knows where they will be after training camp in terms of playing weight.

It took Dungy 3 years to get the cover-2 going in Tampa and about the same in Indy. The success of Indy's defense after being one of the worst in the league tells you a little about the scheme. It takes time.

All three sections of our defense, DL, LB, and DB are in a certain amount of flux, which is understandable since the team is definately in long-term rebuilding mode, like it or not. It stands to reason that we will still struggle a bit. However, it is not simply because one or two particular players are poor at their position, but because there is a lack of experience at positions vacated by veterans and overall within a yearling scheme.

[Night Train]

Originally Posted by Wys Guy
To put this in Ellison's context, to be honest I didn't really watch him and his "open field tackling ability" but I'll pay particular attention to it this season.

:rolleyes:
I thought I was the only one that caught this. Plus this line.

To me a "good fit" is a player that produces. He hasn't done that yet.

He was a 6th round pick, playing in his rookie season ! That makes no sense.

This is year 2 of the current admin. They are not without faults (Peerless) but I'll give a lot of these young guys from the first 2 Marv/Modrak/Jauron drafts a couple of years, before declaring the Bills are settling for 2nd tier talent. I still don't have a clear read on Whitner or Simpson at Safety.

TD left the Bills with a 5 win team and a far bigger mess than people originally thought. We had a ton of holes and many more Vets that needed to move on.

Lamenting about what's been happening for the last 7-10 years doesn't apply to this front office.

[Devin]

Had to bite on this one....

Kamerion Wimbley 62 tackles 11 sacks
D'Qwell Jackson 93 tackles 60 solo

There's 2 more LBers that produced as rookies. I only know them both because they played for the Browns. I can't think of any other LBers around the league that did well though as rookies.


AJ Hawk:
119 tackles (82 solo) , 3.5 sacks, 2 INT's and 1 FF

Demeco Ryans:
155 tackles (125 solo) 3.5 sacks, 1 INT, 1FF

[ParanoidAndroid]

To add to my post above....

This board can be very annoying if you allow ignorant posts to get to you. Just ignore them.

It is also very repetetive when new threads are started about a topic that has been covered in 20 other threads.

Be selective in your reading.

[Tatonka]

but I just really hate how this board is becoming a roast fest and not a mature debate...but whatever...

I guess thats what I get for hangin around a board that has 13 year old dorks on it that want to try to act cool because they don't know how to in real life.

it's how this board should be and not a flaming fest.


hey, kettle.. this is the pot.. im calling you black.

:snicker:

[Tatonka]

So he's gotten it wrong the past few years when the Bills have had losing seasons and had horrible stat rankings?

last time i checked, the bills didnt have the worst record in franchise history last year.. and actually showed improvement over the course of the year.. basically weiler or wys or whatever he wants to be called now predicts that **** every year.. eventually, he might be right.

[Goobylal]

Ok, what about Pennington? He played "admirably" too, as everyone was saying last year. Then be bring some bum from Oakland to play RT and before competition even begins, he's replaced the 7th round RT.
Penington had a lot of help from the TE. Hence the reason the TE was rarely used and also the reason the Bills signed Walker.

What the point of the post was, was that we're SETTLING for Ellison at OLB now, because we brought no one in that is any decent competition that we have 2 depth players playing for a starting spot, and I don't feel too confident in Ellison in this whole young system. He was drafted in the 6th round for a reason, and THAT's what bothers me. And Wys has some points, but I just really hate how this board is becoming a roast fest and not a mature debate...but whatever...
If the Bills felt they were "settling" for Ellison, they would have signed or drafted a player to replace him, like Pennington.