The truth about homers vs. realists.

[OpIv37]

Homers are suffering from Battered Women's Syndrome. This team kicks the **** out of them, then promises to get better. The homers convince themselves everything is going to be fine, and return to get the **** kicked out of them yet again.

Realists, on the other hand, have become masochists. They no longer have the ability to convince themselves everything is going to be fine, yet, they keep returning for the beatings anyway. Maybe they're not exactly like masochists because masochists tend to get pleasure out of having the **** kicked out of them- realists don't like the way they're treated by this team but never stop coming back.

So, the difference isn't really as great as the metaphorical chasm on this board would suggest.

[The Spaz]

Yep, sure huh huh, yep...

[Dozerdog]

Homers enjoy the beatings, Realists gotta ruin it for them

[RedEyE]

What e v e r. I know the Bills loves me. They don't means to lose. I mean, it's not like they aint tryin'.

[Dr. Lecter]

Thank you sir, may I have another?

[chernobylwraiths]

Homers will think the team has a chance to win every week, even when they are bad.

Realists will give every reason why they won't win, then ***** when they don't. If they happen to win, they will point out all the bad things they did and say they were lucky.

I am happy to be a :homer:

[OpIv37]

Homers will think the team has a chance to win every week, even when they are bad.

Realists will give every reason why they won't win, then ***** when they don't. If they happen to win, they will point out all the bad things they did and say they were lucky.

I am happy to be a :homer:

wow, this post is all over the place.

If the team loses, homers and realists alike should be unhappy, so what's wrong with *****ing about a loss? Knowing it's coming doesn't make a loss any less of a loss.

And as far as pointing out the bad things in a win: there is a good reason for it, ie, not expecting more wins. Given the record of this team over the last few seasons, I'd say the realists had a damn good point in that regard.

[JJamezz]

Some people like to piss and moan, some people don't.. I think its really that simple.

[im4bflo]

I'm proud to be a homer, they're my home team, and win or lose, it doesn't change anything IMO.
I'm going to enjoy the good, and suffer through the bad forever. GO BILLS!

[casdhf]

Every minute of every day, I think the best of our team. Right now, we're contenders. The fans of 31 other teams think the same way. Who says we're wrong?

[Philagape]

There's good and bad in almost everything. Some choose to focus on the good, some choose to focus on the bad. And on both ends, it's never as good or as bad as they say it is.

[Carlton Bailey]

Fans are supposed to be homers. Leave the objectivity to the media (excluding ESPN, which we all know sucks).

[RedEyE]

The study of Homer is one of the very oldest topics in all football or professional sports, and goes back to antiquity. Purely in terms of quantity it is one of the largest of all atheletic sub-couch potato-disciplines: the annual defeatist regurgitation rivals that on past success, and melds facts with potential and percentages. The aims and achievements of Homeric studies have changed over the course of the millennia; in the last few centuries they have revolved around the process by which the Homeric teams came into existence and were transmitted down to us, first orally, and later visually, through years of learned beahvior.

Some of the main trends in modern Homeric activity have been, in the 20th and early 21st centuries, Analysis and Unitarianism, which were habits of thought that emphasized on the one hand the inconsistencies, on the other the artistic unity, in sucess; and in the 21st century and later Oral Theory, which is the study of the mechanisms and effects of oral transmission, and Neoanalysis, which is the study of the relationship between Homer and other early epic nemisis, Realism.

[HAMMER]

Some people like to piss and moan, some people don't.. I think its really that simple.

Bingo.

[Dozerdog]

The study of Homer is one of the very oldest topics in all football or professional sports, and goes back to antiquity. Purely in terms of quantity it is one of the largest of all atheletic sub-couch potato-disciplines: the annual defeatist regurgitation rivals that on past success, and melds facts with potential and percentages. The aims and achievements of Homeric studies have changed over the course of the millennia; in the last few centuries they have revolved around the process by which the Homeric teams came into existence and were transmitted down to us, first orally, and later visually, through years of learned beahvior.

Some of the main trends in modern Homeric activity have been, in the 20th and early 21st centuries, Analysis and Unitarianism, which were habits of thought that emphasized on the one hand the inconsistencies, on the other the artistic unity, in sucess; and in the 21st century and later Oral Theory, which is the study of the mechanisms and effects of oral transmission, and Neoanalysis, which is the study of the relationship between Homer and other early epic nemisis, Realism.


You suck

[BILLSROCK1212]

I am in the dead center.

[FlyingDutchman]

"Homers" just dont feel the need to ***** every freakin day. Homer or not constant negativity from individuals can just get old and played out. Its depressing and annoying. Who wants to deal with that?

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Oh I love my Bills, there must be some reason that they want to beat me. Sirs could you beat me again, remember when you beat me it means you love me.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

the safeword is superbowl.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

I just don't understand how the 'homers' can be content losing year after year.

Me...I want division titles, 13-3 seasons, superbowls....

Who said I was content? Who said we were content? We want superbowls, but when we see something to be optimistic about we cheer.

[Michael82]

Homers enjoy the beatings, Realists gotta ruin it for them
:bf1:

[Michael82]

"Homers" just dont feel the need to ***** every freakin day. Homer or not constant negativity from individuals can just get old and played out. Its depressing and annoying. Who wants to deal with that?
Great post! :bf1:

[G. Host]

Its homers and douchers. The douchers labelled the "homers" including using the :homer: smilie so the "homers" get to label the douchers http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/user_pics/182-1180161685.gif . And "realists" label does not apply to your attitude.

[bflojohn]

Holy cow, OpIv37, are you kidding me!! Every DAY you come on here to moan about Pro Football? It boarders on ridiculous!! The Buffalo Bills will line up and give it their ALL, and the results are probably, on the entire weight of the argument, going to be an 8-8 or worse record. The truth is that this regime is moving in the right direction, IMO, and in the opinion of MANY BILLS FANS!

[SquishDaFish]

Great posting Bflo

[The Spaz]

Holy cow, OpIv37, are you kidding me!! Every DAY you come on here to moan about Pro Football? It boarders on ridiculous!! The Buffalo Bills will line up and give it their ALL, and the results are probably, on the entire weight of the argument, going to be an 8-8 or worse record. The truth is that this regime is moving in the right direction, IMO, and in the opinion of MANY BILLS FANS!



Good one! I enjoyed it as well.:clap:

[feldspar]

Homers are suffering from Battered Women's Syndrome. This team kicks the **** out of them, then promises to get better. The homers convince themselves everything is going to be fine, and return to get the **** kicked out of them yet again.

Realists, on the other hand, have become masochists. They no longer have the ability to convince themselves everything is going to be fine, yet, they keep returning for the beatings anyway. Maybe they're not exactly like masochists because masochists tend to get pleasure out of having the **** kicked out of them- realists don't like the way they're treated by this team but never stop coming back.

So, the difference isn't really as great as the metaphorical chasm on this board would suggest.

I submit to you that perhaps the "realists" are sadists, not masochists. "realists" like to kick the **** out of homers for smiling too much. They like to take out their frustrations on those that are just too darn happy for their liking.

Have a great day.

[shelby]

I just don't understand how the 'homers' can be content losing year after year.

Me...I want division titles, 13-3 seasons, superbowls....

i want that, too. i just don't ***** and moan about the negatives and beat other people about the head and shoulders with my version of "reality".
Reality is perception,y'all.

Enjoy the ride, that's why we love Bills football in the first place.

[Mad Bomber]

There are three ways you can look at this glass:
1. Half full
2. Half empty
3. Falling over and about to spill

I'm a half full guy myself. If that makes me a homer, then so be it.
http://images.worldofstock.com/slides/CON1090.jpg

[X-Era]

Homers are suffering from Battered Women's Syndrome. This team kicks the **** out of them, then promises to get better. The homers convince themselves everything is going to be fine, and return to get the **** kicked out of them yet again.

Realists, on the other hand, have become masochists. They no longer have the ability to convince themselves everything is going to be fine, yet, they keep returning for the beatings anyway. Maybe they're not exactly like masochists because masochists tend to get pleasure out of having the **** kicked out of them- realists don't like the way they're treated by this team but never stop coming back.

So, the difference isn't really as great as the metaphorical chasm on this board would suggest.

Agree on Homers.

Disagree on Realists. First of, it cant be called Realist. Realist implies that the perceptions of reality are in fact accurate when sometimes they are not. A better term would be Pesimists or Cynics, its more accurate because it has just as much chance of being innaccurate as a Homers perception.

Really its a ying and yang of half full, half empty. Its a way of looking at the world, not a matter of analysis of fact. It has little to do with the truth of things and is more about opinion and perception.

Now, I would offer that "*****ing" which many do, can be contagious and addictive. It feeds itself and leads to more and more. It has a very short term pay off of feeling better, and when its over, it leaves the "user" wanting more.

Cynics here tend to find things to question, look at the possibility that it could turn out bad, and dwell on it. Homers would find things that are positive and dwell on those.

As far as the Bills go, we all want the same goal. We are united in our quest for the grand prize. Id offer that we should realize we all want the same thing and try to let everyone have there say. Instead, we sometimes suffer from posters taunting posters with a conflicting point of view through leading posts, or polar statements. We sometimes intice other posters into arguements.

My problem is not about get the **** kicked out of me by being a Bills fan, but its when we posters try to kick the **** out of each other. Thats about as stupid as it gets. "hey, your a Bills fan? me too, now **** you...lets go". Its about as stupid as it gets.

It continues to amaze me that here on this board, home of the best fans in the world, we act like 3 year olds and pick on each other. How can some of the most intelligent, and knowledgable football fans, become blithering idiots who would throw their toys at other Bills fans?

THAT my friend is stark contrast!

[!Papacrunk!]

I appreciate the overly negative people of my respective teams I follow. When I get mad about a loss and then see someone that much more pissed off, it makes me realize that it really isn't that bad. Let yourself have fun, it's always good to expect the best for your team, but don't let it stress out so much. Also, message boards are meant for opposing opinions, even if it's an opinion that differs from your own. If you don't like someone's opinion--one that is always overly negative or one that is always overly positive then just put them on ignore. I fail to see why this is such a difficult thing.

[Jan Reimers]

Here's how I always feel. The offseason should be fun, and full of optimism. We have some great draft picks, an improved O-line, a young, developing QB and some really good second year guys who should improve a lot this season.

In addition, the Bills have a very attractive schedule including our first Monday night game in 13 years. Ticket sales are up, corporate sponsorship and merchandise sales are up, and the Ralph is getting spruced up with a big, new HD video screen and a ribbon board.

Why the Hell be negative when there is so much to look forward to? If we tank during the season, I'll be as pissed as anyone. But now is the season of high hopes and expectations, so why not enjoy it?

If that's being a homer, I definitely qualify.

[Wys Guy]

Great post Crunk!

To me it's all about discussion of the team based on facts. This is where most message board conversations fall apart. A lot of that stems from some people just watching the games and remembering only the good things and not remembering many of the shortcomings of the team's play or that of the individual players. One really obvious example is as follows:

Many, not just Bills fans BTW and including much of the national level media, seem to remember Nate Clements for his play over the last half of this past season. Many of us remember a bunch of games over the past several seasons however where he singlehandedly cost us games by blowing it at or near the end of games. He wasn't the best cover cornerback and unless he continues to play like he did for half a season, he still won't be.

Another place where people ignore facts and the realities of either player or team play is in their expectations and predictions for future play. As an example here I will use a statement that Mikey82 made in another thread that I didn't respond to. He said something to the effect that Tripplett will take a big step upward in his play this year?

Why? What, 6th time's a charm? Tripplett is already two years into his prime and hasn't done anything but play to a backup caliber for five years and having lost his starting job twice in Indy. Yet, someone still holds an opinion like this? Why? What is the basis for it? Besides "it's just going to happen" which is like saying that someone expects to win the next major lottery.

bflojohn said the following above in this very thread:

Holy cow, OpIv37, are you kidding me!! Every DAY you come on here to moan about Pro Football? It boarders on ridiculous!! The Buffalo Bills will line up and give it their ALL, and the results are probably, on the entire weight of the argument, going to be an 8-8 or worse record. The truth is that this regime is moving in the right direction, IMO, and in the opinion of MANY BILLS FANS! Get over yourself Spanky!!!
<!-- / message -->
So let's pick on him and parse his statements for actual facts. Here they are:

Every DAY you come on here to moan about Pro Football?

Well, OK, I suppose that can be called a fact but the word "moan" is somewhat subjective.

The Buffalo Bills will line up and give it their ALL

While not a fact, this is at least a fair assumption, so it will stand.

The rest is just pure opinion based on nothing and further mild/inferred insults. That's a fact.

Shelby said above:

want that, too. i just don't ***** and moan about the negatives and beat other people about the head and shoulders with my version of "reality".
Reality is perception,y'all.

Enjoy the ride, that's why we love Bills football in the first place.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Reality is perception to an extent. But to say that everyone's perception individually is reality would be grossly wrong. Obviously some peoples sense of reality here is so far out of whack that it is actually ridiculous. Past season's similar "perceptions" can also be rehashed and completely invalidated in hindsight, so clearly those past perceptions were not reality(ies).

Much of reality can be measured using statistical as well as other measures too however and contrasted with similar data from other teams and players. Otherwise someone's perception may be that McGahee is as good as any other RB in the league, which many, even here, held a few short years ago. Certainly that was Willis' own perception, yet you all laugh at him and that notion. Why? If perception is reality, then he's entirely correct.

When we first began this site there were quite a few very good posters that enjoyed discussing football, not merely swapping "one-ups," insults, and barbs without much factual discussion at all. They all left. I kept a list for a while in case I could gather them back together. But they actually wanted to discuss football and the "whys" and "why nots."

The homers just don't care about that and therefore they don't do it generally speaking. In their mind the opinion that the Moon is made of green cheese, or that the earth is flat is just as valid as the one that says it's made of rocks and other materials or that the earth is spherical. But they argue as if they actually have facts when everything they front, in this case now in recent seasons with the Bills at least, is fluffy stuff that's all predicated on expectations, but even then they fail to accept the normal odds/chances of success.

You can see them all here. They talk about "Levy being on the right track." Why? What is the existing evidence for it besides that Levy coached a former team built by one of the best GMs in the game to four Super Bowls when in fact he probably should have been able to easily have his team win two of those, which is completely irrelevant today?

They talk about how our draft picks are all going to work out but fail to recognize that if only 4 of our 7 draftees end up assuming starting positions and playing average or better football then it can be considered a good draft for the most part. But according to them all 7 are going to contribute and nearly immediately and to top levels.

Meanwhile, anyone that calls them on it, not on their statements per se, but simply their rationale, they don't produce or ante up. They just call that person a negative nancy or a pessimist. Meanwhile, it becomes an annual exercise whereby they should have lost all their credibility.

Prior to my original departure, I wanted to create a separate forum for the handful of people here that actually wanted to talk about football, particularly that of the Bills, and agree or not, discuss it. There were a good 20 posters then, known, that wanted that. That's the list that I once had and may in fact still have it burried somewhere.

Regardless, I was overruled by LOG and Dozer and that's part and parcel of what led to my departure. I've always had much higher hopes for this site than a mere news repository and message board. Eb and Clump's is probably the best aspect of it and is marketable.

This site could have had a host of original writers and charged a hefty monthly, annual, or quarterly fee for its use, at least certain parts of it. Anyway, I digress.

Getting back to my point, IMO there should be two forums, still. That way those that want to discuss football and the nuances of it in a "how do we improve" way, in peace, and whether in agreement or not, currently have no policed forum for it. So they get stuck in with the homers who disrupt good football conversations and reduce them to opinionated "can't we all get along" and "everyone's opinion is just as valid as anyone else's regardless of facts presented" mantras.

Therein lie the problems and issues. But take heart, I have not seen a message board yet isn't exactly the same and I've participated in some political forums too. That's also why I no longer do. It's just the way life is and human nature that these things always degrade to nonsense and a lot of noise with some morsels burried in there at irregular rates.

[justasportsfan]

Some people like to piss and moan, some people don't.. I think its really that simple.
:10:

[Coach Sal]

Homers are suffering from Battered Women's Syndrome. This team kicks the **** out of them, then promises to get better. The homers convince themselves everything is going to be fine, and return to get the **** kicked out of them yet again.

Realists, on the other hand, have become masochists. They no longer have the ability to convince themselves everything is going to be fine, yet, they keep returning for the beatings anyway. Maybe they're not exactly like masochists because masochists tend to get pleasure out of having the **** kicked out of them- realists don't like the way they're treated by this team but never stop coming back.

So, if my really hot German wife and I like tying each other up and performing unspeakable acts on each others' bodies, does that make us fall under the "Battered Wife Syndrome" (Homers)? Or the "Masochists" (Realists)?

What if the routine varies each week depending on the result of the Bills game?

[justasportsfan]

Op is like Scrooge when it comes to Christmas . He will dump on anyone that has any reason to be excited about the bills. Bahumbug.

[!Papacrunk!]

Op is like Scrooge when it comes to Christmas . He will dump on anyone that has any reason to be excited about the bills. Bahumbug.

didn't Scrooge come around in the end? It's been a while since I read that story.

[Wys Guy]

As well, how many of you just will comment on my post without having actually read the whole thing under the notion of "he just repeated himself" (false) and "he took more words to say the same things multiple times." (also false)

I get e-mail all the time from readers that tell me about something I wrote. The only problem is that if they'd actually read it they'd have seen that in fact I actually wrote the opposite or something very different from what they told me I did. According to Shelby's statement, and not trying to pick on you Shelby, :), but it did synopsize the message board mentality, both views are accurate, correct, and carry similar weight in spite of the fact that they are essentially mutually exclusive.

It is quite possible to conduct a civil discussion even with disagreements on football. But all participants need to be willing to do it. They do it on TV all the time on varying sports shows. You can't let the group get too big however, because there's always some smarta$$ that gets the ball rolling and ruins it for everyone. While scantly attended, the forum over at my site is very respectful of anyone's opionion. I didn't want a big MB b/c it's babysittting central, but a few more people that want to actually discuss football would be welcome. I only say that since that was my original intent and there was no room for it here.

Anyway, just some thoughts. I still think that there's a tremendous opportunity to create a site just for the "pessimists" that would prefer to deal in actual facts and realities, not contrived or imagined "realities."

There's also a ton of room for an outlet that has multiple original writers, ranging from homer to realist. There's a lot of money to be made when you meet consumer demand.

[justasportsfan]

didn't Scrooge come around in the end? It's been a while since I read that story.
in the end the became worse than a homer. But I doubt OP will ever become a homer. If we won the sb Op will still find something wrong.

[Jan Reimers]

So, if my really hot German wife and I like tying each other up and performing unspeakable acts on each others' bodies, does that make us fall under the "Battered Wife Syndrome" (Homers)? Or the "Masochists" (Realists)?

What if the routine varies each week depending on the result of the Bills game?
I'd just call you a Lucky Guy.

[HAMMER]

Realists apparently really like to read their own garbage. They have the longest posts in the history of the internet.

[Michael82]

Here's how I always feel. The offseason should be fun, and full of optimism. We have some great draft picks, an improved O-line, a young, developing QB and some really good second year guys who should improve a lot this season.

In addition, the Bills have a very attractive schedule including our first Monday night game in 13 years. Ticket sales are up, corporate sponsorship and merchandise sales are up, and the Ralph is getting spruced up with a big, new HD video screen and a ribbon board.

Why the Hell be negative when there is so much to look forward to? If we tank during the season, I'll be as pissed as anyone. But now is the season of high hopes and expectations, so why not enjoy it?

If that's being a homer, I definitely qualify.
Excellent post, Jan! :bf1:

You got it perfectly! I've always used the offseason as a way to get hyped up and excited for Buffalo Bills football. This season is no different, other than I am very excited about the way this team is headed, with all the young players with a ton of potential and the offense that might finally shine! Reading all the posts from patmoran, Op, Wys, and a few others actually ruins it for me. It's like they are pissing in my cereal or kicking me in the nuts. It's ridiculous! :mad:

[justasportsfan]

Realists apparently really like to read their own garbage. They have the longest posts in the history of the internet.

I think they do that to get far away as possible from the fact that they were wrong about last years record.

[Wys Guy]

Realists apparently really like to read their own garbage. They have the longest posts in the history of the internet.
It's very interesting how my points become entirely validated within seconds.

: ]

[Wys Guy]

Realists apparently really like to read their own garbage. They have the longest posts in the history of the internet.
It's ironic Hammer, some people would simply say that if you don't have anything good to say about someone personally such as that, then don't say anything. And I'm not talking about public figures and people in extremely high profile positions in that way.

Ironically, that's exactly the position that "homers" take. "If you can't say anything good about the team/players/coaches/GMs/etc. then don't/why bother/don't watch/etc." Yet, those same people do the same thing to people personally.

It's very unbecoming. It may also be characteristic of the person doing so.

[Novacane]

Here's how I always feel. The offseason should be fun, and full of optimism. We have some great draft picks, an improved O-line, a young, developing QB and some really good second year guys who should improve a lot this season.

In addition, the Bills have a very attractive schedule including our first Monday night game in 13 years. Ticket sales are up, corporate sponsorship and merchandise sales are up, and the Ralph is getting spruced up with a big, new HD video screen and a ribbon board.

Why the Hell be negative when there is so much to look forward to? If we tank during the season, I'll be as pissed as anyone. But now is the season of high hopes and expectations, so why not enjoy it?

If that's being a homer, I definitely qualify.


That's exactlty how I feel evey year. Homers are the ones that jump down your throat if you dare complain when things do tank.

[justasportsfan]

Ironically, that's exactly the position that "homers" take. "If you can't say anything good about the team/players/coaches/GMs/etc. then don't/why bother/don't watch/etc." Yet, those same people do the same thing to people personally.
.
wrong. It's when you whine about the same things over and over and over again. I've predicted 8-8 record and yet that's not enough. I'm still a homer because I won't start numerous threads about how the bills suck.

[Novacane]

Welcome back Wys. :up:

[Wys Guy]

wrong. It's when you whine about the same things over and over and over again. I've predicted 8-8 record and yet that's not enough. I'm still a homer because I won't start numerous threads about how the bills suck.
Did you actually read my "long" post? I mean I reread it for editing and it must have taken me a whopping 90 seconds. Too long?

Frankly, I don't think I've ever written anything at all like it and there was zero redundancy as so many people claim, while simultaneously claiming that they don't/didn't read it.

I wish I had some of those mental capabilities that I too could know what was said/written without actually reading it. It really isn't appreciated. I don't treat you or anyone else like that, so why do you, Hammer, and others do it to me and others?

I at least feel obliged to read what someone wrote before responding. Things naturally all break down on facts usually, but that's a different, aforementioned, matter.

[justasportsfan]

Did you actually read my "long" post? .
Do I ever?

[Philagape]

Fans are supposed to be homers. Leave the objectivity to the media (excluding ESPN, which we all know sucks).

I disagree ... fans can be objective. A fan is someone who roots for a team and hopes they win. That doesn't mean they must always predict success.

[HAMMER]

Blah, blah, blah, someone likes to babble. Maybe we should start calling the "realists" chickenheads.

[HHURRICANE]

Uhhh, there are 3 categories:

Homers believe that the Bills will make the playoffs before the season begins and do not want to hear any reason why we wouldn't. They always become realists, of course, when we become officially eliminated from the playoffs.

Realists point out the obvious flaws with facts and try to put a realistic number on the season before it begins. Anything that happens better is a bonus but they are cautious about their expectations.

Pessimists are those that think Marv sucks, JP sucks, Jauron sucks, and Wilson is the worst owner to live. They never use logic to justify there aignst.

[Wys Guy]

Realists apparently really like to read their own garbage. They have the longest posts in the history of the internet.
And people write books too Hammer? Does that mean that they're useless, or drivel? Some are, some aren't.

Did you actually read my post?

I can see your lack of interest in doing so, but then how about then exercising some discipline and refraining from commenting on things, that apparently you know little of.

It is quite interesting however, in the "homer's" world, everything can be condensced to "Go Bills! We're going to make the playoffs this year!!!"

While with what you guys term "realists," "pessimists," "overkil-ists," (my term), "long winded-ers," (again, my term), etc., there's some degree of reasonable analysis and looking at things past skin deep.

Either way, you attitude is what forms the basis for everything that I said in my post. Everything!

You have your own "homeristic" opinion but in one or more forms, just won't tolerate any others without petty digging or mild insults.

That's why I said a forum for purely football discussion is necessary. There would be precious few in it, but at least the conversations would be civil, respectful, and substantial.

[Wys Guy]

Welcome back Wys. :up:

Thanks Novacane!!

I actually won't be here all that much down the line. I just have a lot of time on my hands right now and am doing things in parallel on my PC that require some "waiting time."

BTW, if you ever want to actually discuss football, I prefer e-mail. It's nearly impossible and there's far too much "noise" here to get into good uninterupted conversations regarding actual football.

[feelthepain]

Homers are suffering from Battered Women's Syndrome. This team kicks the **** out of them, then promises to get better. The homers convince themselves everything is going to be fine, and return to get the **** kicked out of them yet again.

Realists, on the other hand, have become masochists. They no longer have the ability to convince themselves everything is going to be fine, yet, they keep returning for the beatings anyway. Maybe they're not exactly like masochists because masochists tend to get pleasure out of having the **** kicked out of them- realists don't like the way they're treated by this team but never stop coming back.

So, the difference isn't really as great as the metaphorical chasm on this board would suggest.

Post of the year!!:bf1:

[HAMMER]

And people write books too Hammer? Does that mean that they're useless, or drivel? Some are, some aren't.

Did you actually read my post?

I can see your lack of interest in doing so, but then how about then exercising some discipline and refraining from commenting on things, that apparently you know little of.

It is quite interesting however, in the "homer's" world, everything can be condensced to "Go Bills! We're going to make the playoffs this year!!!"

While with what you guys term "realists," "pessimists," "overkil-ists," (my term), "long winded-ers," (again, my term), etc., there's some degree of reasonable analysis and looking at things past skin deep.

Either way, you attitude is what forms the basis for everything that I said in my post. Everything!

You have your own "homeristic" opinion but in one or more forms, just won't tolerate any others without petty digging or mild insults.

That's why I said a forum for purely football discussion is necessary. There would be precious few in it, but at least the conversations would be civil, respectful, and substantial.

I don't consider myself a homer. I don't bury my head in the sand and ignore the fact that our team faces challenges at key positions. I don't believe we have a very good shot at the playoffs this year. I do believe in enjoying my football team and the fact that they are a growing young bunch of men with character. Being led by what I feel is one of the greatest men in the history of professional football, Marv Levy.

I don't believe in the few people around here that feel they know more about football than the rest of us and try to constantly remind us of it. The people that constantly belabor the same points over, and over, and over. We know how you feel, do you really need to constantly throw it in our face?

[feelthepain]

Originally Posted by FlyingDutchman
"Homers" just dont feel the need to ***** every freakin day. Homer or not constant negativity from individuals can just get old and played out. Its depressing and annoying. Who wants to deal with that?


If the Bills were good, what would there be to ***** about??

[OpIv37]

I submit to you that perhaps the "realists" are sadists, not masochists. "realists" like to kick the **** out of homers for smiling too much. They like to take out their frustrations on those that are just too darn happy for their liking.

Have a great day.

maybe the "homers" should stop and think whether what they're smiling about is grounded in reality or based on some overly optimistic ideal that doesn't actually exist.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Homers are suffering from Battered Women's Syndrome. This team kicks the **** out of them, then promises to get better. The homers convince themselves everything is going to be fine, and return to get the **** kicked out of them yet again.

Realists, on the other hand, have become masochists. They no longer have the ability to convince themselves everything is going to be fine, yet, they keep returning for the beatings anyway. Maybe they're not exactly like masochists because masochists tend to get pleasure out of having the **** kicked out of them- realists don't like the way they're treated by this team but never stop coming back.

So, the difference isn't really as great as the metaphorical chasm on this board would suggest.
See this is such bull****. I know the first 5 games for example are going to be killer on especially on paper. Although I hold out hope that the team will come around in training camp and preseason. If I didn't have this hope I simply would not even give 2 ****s about the team and wouldnt' even follow them. Why would I? Although this is the 14th time I have made this exact post in the last week....

[Wys Guy]

Uhhh, there are 3 categories:

Homers believe that the Bills will make the playoffs before the season begins and do not want to hear any reason why we wouldn't. They always become realists, of course, when we become officially eliminated from the playoffs.

Realists point out the obvious flaws with facts and try to put a realistic number on the season before it begins. Anything that happens better is a bonus but they are cautious about their expectations.

Pessimists are those that think Marv sucks, JP sucks, Jauron sucks, and Wilson is the worst owner to live. They never use logic to justify there aignst.

LOL

Good post. Allow me to add to it;

Homers: Go through an emotional roller coaster ride. The beginning of the season is as you say. In the end, in seasons such as we are in now, everyone on the team is "inept," a "moron," "doesn't know WTH they're doing," etc. Until the offseason of course when they all "reset" and become "geniuses" and "experts" again. ;)

Realists: Enjoy good football discussion with others that do as well. They can be convinced one way or another, but it will be in light of facts, not merely the opinions of others that are ignorant of many facts and information such as past performances and statistical data suggesting certain things. IMO they try to predict what will actually happen although some may lean somewhat optimistic or some may lean pessimistic. As for me, I tend to provide a range within which I think we will fall.

FWIW here is what my predictions were prior to the season starting and where the actual ranks were. As you can see, high on some, low on others.

http://www.afceastreport.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=199

Pessimists: I agree with your definition but would question whether there are too many if any such fans out there. Usually when a MB poster says "pessimist" they are not referring to someone that is in fact a pessimist by definition, they are usually referring to someone that does not agree with them that this team under its present leadership and with its present roster of players/"talent" is headed for greatness and "on the right track."

Op isnt' a pessimist. Neither is PatMoran. They both acknowledge the strong points of the team in full. So your definition and that as provided by the "homers" differ terminally.

I would add this, that a pessimist by your definition is probably not a real fan of the team whereas Realists and Homers are.

IMO the entire thing can be simplified into two categories of fans:

Fantasyland fans: Those that embellish everything about the team and expect high-end on expectations for each and every component of the team. Obviously that's utterly unrealistic in spite of the fact that that's what they believe.

Realists: Those that understand football history, the methods employed by winners in becoming and continuing to be winners, trends, patterns, odds such that there are reasons why coaches/teams/players are "0-fer" after half a dozen seasons and therefore are not likely to "buck the trend" anytime soon, etc.

So in essence, ...

Realists, and...

Unrealists.

Good discussion BTW!

[OpIv37]

"Homers" just dont feel the need to ***** every freakin day. Homer or not constant negativity from individuals can just get old and played out. Its depressing and annoying. Who wants to deal with that?

but why be positive about something that is negative? I can't imagine you're actually happy with the way the Bills have been performing lately.

It's depressing and annoying that people continue to defend every player on this team and every move this team makes regardless of whether or not they lead to wins.

[OpIv37]

See this is such bull****. I know the first 5 games for example are going to be killer on especially on paper. Although I hold out hope that the team will come around in training camp and preseason. If I didn't have this hope I simply would not even give 2 ****s about the team and wouldnt' even follow them. Why would I? Although this is the 14th time I have made this exact post in the last week....

You lack the ability to make the distinction between HOPE and EXPECTATIONS. I HOPE the Bills win 19 straight games and win the SB, but I EXPECT they will be in the 7-9 range again.

[OpIv37]

Here's how I always feel. The offseason should be fun, and full of optimism. We have some great draft picks, an improved O-line, a young, developing QB and some really good second year guys who should improve a lot this season.

In addition, the Bills have a very attractive schedule including our first Monday night game in 13 years. Ticket sales are up, corporate sponsorship and merchandise sales are up, and the Ralph is getting spruced up with a big, new HD video screen and a ribbon board.

Why the Hell be negative when there is so much to look forward to? If we tank during the season, I'll be as pissed as anyone. But now is the season of high hopes and expectations, so why not enjoy it?

If that's being a homer, I definitely qualify.


all that stuff is great, but in the long run it's about WINS and on paper, it seems unlikely that we'll be getting too many of those. That's why I'm pessimistic. I want this team to win but I just don't see how it's going to happen.

[THATHURMANATOR]

You lack the ability to make the distinction between HOPE and EXPECTATIONS. I HOPE the Bills win 19 straight games and win the SB, but I EXPECT they will be in the 7-9 range again.
No I do not lack anything. My yearly prediction thread was done in somewhat of a joking fashion. Do I think the Bills will be 10-6? Only if every possible thing that needed to happen does.

I think you lack the ability to realize that we all realize there are problems with the team. We look at what might go right, you look at what might and WILL go wrong. Just two different viewpoints.

[OpIv37]

So, if my really hot German wife and I like tying each other up and performing unspeakable acts on each others' bodies, does that make us fall under the "Battered Wife Syndrome" (Homers)? Or the "Masochists" (Realists)?

What if the routine varies each week depending on the result of the Bills game?

I think it just makes you Germans.

[THATHURMANATOR]

all that stuff is great, but in the long run it's about WINS and on paper, it seems unlikely that we'll be getting too many of those. That's why I'm pessimistic. I want this team to win but I just don't see how it's going to happen.
Agreed but what effect will all your *****ing and moaning have on the Win/Loss record? NOTHING. Might as well save the ulcer.

[OpIv37]

No I do not lack anything. My yearly prediction thread was done in somewhat of a joking fashion. Do I think the Bills will be 10-6? Only if every possible thing that needed to happen does.

I think you lack the ability to realize that we all realize there are problems with the team. We look at what might go right, you look at what might and WILL go wrong. Just two different viewpoints.

I look at what might go right AND what might go wrong, and IMO it seems like there is a hell of a lot more that could go wrong this year. Hence, the pessimism and the low expectations.

See, people here seem to think I'm negative just to BE negative. I'm negative because I want to win and I just don't see how it's going to happen.

If we had the Patriots' season last year and the Patriot's off-season, there is no way in hell I would be this negative about the team. Yes, I'm pessimistic by nature and I'm sure I'd find a few things to complain about here and there, but overall I'd be a lot more hopeful and optimistic than I am now.

[OpIv37]

Agreed but what effect will all your *****ing and moaning have on the Win/Loss record? NOTHING. Might as well save the ulcer.

what effect will all the "youboty has a first round grade" and "the young guys on d will improve" posts have on our win/loss record. NOTHING. So why bother posting at all? It won't change the outcome whether it's positive or negative.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I look at what might go right AND what might go wrong, and IMO it seems like there is a hell of a lot more that could go wrong this year. Hence, the pessimism and the low expectations.

See, people here seem to think I'm negative just to BE negative. I'm negative because I want to win and I just don't see how it's going to happen.

If we had the Patriots' season last year and the Patriot's off-season, there is no way in hell I would be this negative about the team. Yes, I'm pessimistic by nature and I'm sure I'd find a few things to complain about here and there, but overall I'd be a lot more hopeful and optimistic than I am now.
Do you think we have a better or worse team going into this year than last?

I realize we lost some players. Clements will be a ***** to replace, the others I could care less about they have been replaced by upgrades or equals IMO.

My prediction was 7-9 last year. I feel better about the direction and talent on the team this year so my prediction is better. If we suck you guys can pull the same tired act you do every year pointing out that you knew along they were bad and if they are winning you just enjoy the ride. Win/Win for you I guess. The Realists are politicians.

[THATHURMANATOR]

what effect will all the "youboty has a first round grade" and "the young guys on d will improve" posts have on our win/loss record. NOTHING. So why bother posting at all? It won't change the outcome whether it's positive or negative.
Never heard that from me. I have said he is the logical replacement as he seems to have the most talent of the players we have left. So far in OTAs he is lining up with the 2nd and 3rd team so maybe it will be Thomas or the new guy Webster who steps up. Honestly the CB situation scares the **** out of me.

[OpIv37]

Do you think we have a better or worse team going into this year than last?

I realize we lost some players. Clements will be a ***** to replace, the others I could care less about they have been replaced by upgrades or equals IMO.

My prediction was 7-9 last year. I feel better about the direction and talent on the team this year so my prediction is better. If we suck you guys can pull the same tired act you do every year pointing out that you knew along they were bad and if they are winning you just enjoy the ride. Win/Win for you I guess. The Realists are politicians.

For the record, I've done VERY few "I was right" posts and I only did them after someone challenged something else I said and I needed to demonstrate my track record. I've NEVER come on here and gloated because I can't take glory in a loss, even if I was right about it. Being a pessimist is LOSE LOSE, not WIN/WIN. If the Bills lose, we're right but the Bills still lost. If the Bills win, we have to take **** for being wrong.

I think the D is worse- or at least will be worse at the beginning of the year until we get some experience- and the DL will be holding us back for the 3rd consecutive year.

I think the O is going to be better but I don't think it will be better enough to compensate for the D, especially considering some of the tough D's we have to face this year.

[THATHURMANATOR]

For the record, I've done VERY few "I was right" posts and I only did them after someone challenged something else I said and I needed to demonstrate my track record. I've NEVER come on here and gloated because I can't take glory in a loss, even if I was right about it. Being a pessimist is LOSE LOSE, not WIN/WIN. If the Bills lose, we're right but the Bills still lost. If the Bills win, we have to take **** for being wrong.

I think the D is worse- or at least will be worse at the beginning of the year until we get some experience- and the DL will be holding us back for the 3rd consecutive year.

I think the O is going to be better but I don't think it will be better enough to compensate for the D, especially considering some of the tough D's we have to face this year.
Then I agree with your 7-9 as your opinion. You think the D has regressed and the O has improved. That makes sense. I am with you.

[feelthepain]

Then I agree with your 7-9 as your opinion. You think the D has regressed and the O has improved. That makes sense. I am with you.

So you think JP is a probowl QB with a 7-9 team??? Hmmm, interesting.

[justasportsfan]

Op isnt' a pessimist. Neither is PatMoran. They both acknowledge the strong points of the team in full. So your definition and that as provided by the "homers" differ terminally.

I
Now you know why I don't read your garbage.

I start a thread about the possibilities of the O and OP turns it into how the D sucks.


Moran? nevermind, the guy can't even stand by what he says. He changes his stance so wth cares about what he says now ? If you say something completely opposite if what you said means YOU NEVER HAD AN OPINION.


That's okay I understand. you are just trying to defend your kind because you are one of them .

[Wys Guy]

I don't consider myself a homer. I don't bury my head in the sand and ignore the fact that our team faces challenges at key positions. I don't believe we have a very good shot at the playoffs this year. I do believe in enjoying my football team and the fact that they are a growing young bunch of men with character. Being led by what I feel is one of the greatest men in the history of professional football, Marv Levy.

I don't believe in the few people around here that feel they know more about football than the rest of us and try to constantly remind us of it. The people that constantly belabor the same points over, and over, and over. We know how you feel, do you really need to constantly throw it in our face?
That's all fine and good Hammer, but then you should agree with most of what I write and opine on. I fully acknowledge the good players and things about our team. Yet you pretty much have and continue to fully express the opposite. So what gives?

You say "Being led by what I feel is one of the greatest men in the history of professional football, Marv Levy." but you won't even accept the distinct possibility that having been entirely out of football for a decade combined with the fact that he's never even held the role of GM, not to mention that he's in his 80s as if that's irrelevant, and probably is IYO, is perhaps a real detriment to his performing his job well as well as ignoring that he's not getting any younger and learning his job on our time.

Character doesn't necessarily have anything at all to do with performance on the football field. That is not to suggest that it's not an asset in people, but teams of entire thugs have dominated in this league. (See Dallas Cowboys c. '90) So that, whether or not you are gracious enough to admit it is a cut above irrelevant. As well, you speak as if 80% of the players in the league have no character. IMO it's just a handful that taint an entire league.

Regardless, Michael Jordan is perhaps singlehandedly the greatest man ever to have anything at all to do with the NBA. Yet how was he as the Director of Basketball Operations or whatever the hell was in DC? He sucked and was practically run out of town in that way, I know, I live there. Trust me, he became all but a laughing stock. Yet, you, and others, absolutely refuse to even consider that Levy simply will not be a good GM. Frankly, if he were that great a coach we wouldn't have gotten dusted in the 2nd half of our 4th Super Bowl and would have even perhaps won it along with the first one. Yes, that is MO only, clearly and obviously.

As to certain people knowing more Hammer, I will challenge you on this;

Who knows more? Them, or the collective wisdom of NFL history past?

Most of those people that you thusly criticize merely have taken what has annually been the "recipe for success" in the NFL since its inception, and compared and contrasted that with the way we are doing business. Then they find incongruities! In fact the Ivy League Dynamic Duo are in fact behaving very much like Donadope did when he was here. You simply are not willing to admit it.

So in essence, when you say something like that, it's not those that have recognized what history firmly suggests is the recipe for success, rather that recipe itself. So in essence then, you elevate yourself to the status of what you say you detest. You now know more than the collective wisdom and proven methods of what, nearly 40 years of NFL football.

As to those that you criticize, they merely recognize the fact that we are and continue to deviate from proven recipes and methods for success in a "trying to reinvent the wheel" methodology and then confidently, with much basis, state that that will not work.

Meanwhile, what were your views early in Donadope's tenure? The same? I'd wager that they were. Meanwhile, I did some major due diligence on people like Donadope, Kevin Gilbride, and Bledsoe, et. al., all open for the world to see, and guess what, when they behaved exactly the same here with exactly the same results, it certainly didn't surprise me.

Does it make me some kind of genius? No. All it says is that I wasn't afraid of some information, readily available information it can be added, nor afraid to state my views based on that information. People set themselves up against the odds when they utterly ignore a wealth of prior information in favor of their own opinions based on what really amounts to nothing then. Certainly nothing concrete.

If the Bills had picked up Mangini as coach last year, you wouldn't have heard one critical comment from me in that decision.

[Wys Guy]

Now you know why I don't read your garbage.

I start a thread about the possibilities of the O and OP turns it into how the D sucks.


Moran? nevermind, the guy can't even stand by what he says. He changes his stance so wth cares about what he says now ? If you say something completely opposite if what you said means YOU NEVER HAD AN OPINION.


That's okay I understand. you are just trying to defend your kind because you are one of them .

Garbage?

Thanks. And you can't possibly be serious about that entire post.

Funny though, the only people that say my stuff is "garbage" or the like are the ones that don't read it. I get quite a few kudos from people telling me quite the opposite and that they enjoy the "freshness" from the typical media stuff.

I have to think that you're joking here and just trying to get a rise out of me. Otherwise, why the seeming hatred?

If you are serious, then I would classify your post as nothing more than a tantrum. It has no substance to it.

[Wys Guy]

And some of you guys wonder why some very legitmate posters that are fully knowledgeable about football don't bother posting here.

I the short time, hour or two, that I've been at work here, I've already gotten three notes, one via PM, two from people that don't post here with even the remotest of regularity, yet that I recognize as having been at least largely knowledgeable about football, indicating the same thing, that they don't post here for that very reason.

It is what it is. Let's see you blame that on me. LMAO

Some of this is far to funny. I mean seriously, when one steps back and looks at it against a greater backdrop, it's a laugh riot.

[Mad Bomber]

Uhhh, there are 3 categories:

Homers believe that the Bills will make the playoffs before the season begins and do not want to hear any reason why we wouldn't. They always become realists, of course, when we become officially eliminated from the playoffs.

Realists point out the obvious flaws with facts and try to put a realistic number on the season before it begins. Anything that happens better is a bonus but they are cautious about their expectations.

Pessimists are those that think Marv sucks, JP sucks, Jauron sucks, and Wilson is the worst owner to live. They never use logic to justify there aignst.

This is pretty close, but I see 4 categories:

Homers - pretty much as you described it in your first sentence.

Realists can be divided into two categories:
1) Optimists - focus on the strengths and other positives, while realizing that there are weaknesses and flaws.
2) Pessimists - focus on the weaknesses and flaws, while realizing that there are strengths and positives.
Most everyone considers themself a "realist" - otherwise they're just delusional. The main difference is their point of view and what they chose to focus on. I consider myself an optimistic realist.

Cynics are those that think Marv sucks, JP suck, etc (what you called pessimists).

[justasportsfan]

Garbage?

Thanks. And you can't possibly be serious about that entire post.

Funny though, the only people that say my stuff is "garbage" or the like are the ones that don't read it. I get quite a few kudos from people telling me quite the opposite and that they enjoy the "freshness" from the typical media stuff.

I have to think that you're joking here and just trying to get a rise out of me. Otherwise, why the seeming hatred?

If you are serious, then I would classify your post as nothing more than a tantrum. It has no substance to it.
most of it is whining about the same things so to me it's garbage the second, 3rd time around. You're not like this on the phone or when we're together.

Let's get one thing straight though, Mark Wieler is totally different from wys. :up:

For you to say Op and Moran aren't pessimists, is garbage.

[Wys Guy]

Then I agree with your 7-9 as your opinion. You think the D has regressed and the O has improved. That makes sense. I am with you.

Really steppin' out there Thurm.

LOL

Water's wet. Agree with me too?

;)

JK

[!Papacrunk!]

can't we just copy and paste the thread from last year that was the EXACT same one as this? Don't tell me I'm the only one with deja vu

[Mad Bomber]

This is pretty close, but I see 4 categories:

Homers - pretty much as you described it in your first sentence.

Realists can be divided into two categories:
1) Optimists - focus on the strengths and other positives, while realizing that there are weaknesses and flaws.
2) Pessimists - focus on the weaknesses and flaws, while realizing that there are strengths and positives.
Most everyone considers themself a "realist" - otherwise they're just delusional. The main difference is their point of view and what they chose to focus on. I consider myself an optimistic realist.

Cynics are those that think Marv sucks, JP suck, etc (what you called pessimists).

To put it graphically:
http://images.worldofstock.com/slides/CON1090.jpg

Homer - the glass is full

Realists:
Optimist - the glass is half full
Pessimist - the glass is half empty

Cynic - the glass is tipping over. It will shatter and the water will be all over the place.

[Wys Guy]

most of it is whining about the same things so to me it's garbage the second, 3rd time around. You're not like this on the phone or when we're together.

Let's get one thing straight though, Mark Wieler is totally different from wys. :up:

For you to say Op and Moran aren't pessimists, is garbage.

You couldn't be more wrong.

But see, you, and others, utterly disqualify yourself here. You have openly stated that you don't bother to read my stuff and have for years.

So then everyone is left to assume that you are omniscient. Otherwise, how do you substantiate your points. Frankly I'm no different, on substance, in person than I am in writing. You have just so predetermined how I am.

So really, you admit not knowing what my views are, but then feel fully qualified to categorically comment on them. Very interesting indeed. You are in good company I might add.

As stated I get e-mails all the time from supposed readers who tell me things that I supposedly believe when in the very article that they are commenting on it says the exact opposite of what they just told me (via e-mail usually) that I believe.

How can that possibly be.

You're a very nice person in person but highly incorrigible and detestable here quite frankly. If you were a fraction of what you were like here in person I'd never bother to even contact you.

I fail to see what people can't simply discuss football without getting all personal. The "getting personal" part of it is 90+% emanating from the "homer" side of things. The 10% that comes back is usually in retort. Why?

So what gives? Are you in fact omniscient? If so, call me, you can make some big money working for a good many people that I know down in the DC area.

[Wys Guy]

Also, please respect me enough here to limit your discussion of me to my MB moniker only.

I do for you.

TY

[justasportsfan]

You couldn't be more wrong.

But see, you, and others, utterly disqualify yourself here. You have openly stated that you don't bother to read my stuff and have for years.

So then everyone is left to assume that you are omniscient. Otherwise, how do you substantiate your points. Frankly I'm no different, on substance, in person than I am in writing. You have just so predetermined how I am.

As stated I get e-mails all the time from supposed readers who tell me things that I supposedly believe when in the very article that they are commenting on it says the exact opposite of what they just told me (via e-mail usually) that I believe.

How can that possibly be.

You're a very nice person in person but highly incorrigible and detestable here quite frankly. If you were a fraction of what you were like here in person I'd never bother to even contact you.

I fail to see what people can't simply discuss football without getting all personal. The "getting personal" part of it is 90+% emanating from the "homer" side of things. The 10% that comes back is usually in retort. Why?

So what gives? Are you in fact omniscient? If so, call me, you can make some big money working for a good many people that I know down in the DC area.
You can scan through without reading.


Aha! discussion goes both ways. Why can't I have a disscussion about the possibilities that something positive can happen without some nancy butting in and short no saying "NO That's not possible , the only possible thing is that we will suck"? You then turn around and say we can't discuss?

I mean seriously, you talk about the O and then it get's hijacked and turned into the D sucks.

Again, I can talk to Mark and hang out with Mark , but I can read wys' stuff just like I can hang with Bryan and drink with bryan but I can't stand OP whining.

Don't take it personal. Calling a post or article garbage is not personal. Only someone like Moran says it is. Most of us are different on the boards than we are in person.

[Wys Guy]

Hey also,

You and I had some big talk a couple weeks back when you offered to wager me on team performance this year. I made a statement, you countered telling me that I was wrong. I made you the offer of a wager. You said send you an e-mail. I have, three times now to confirm.

You haven't answered.

Why not? If I'm so FoS then it's an easy win for you.

Again, so what gives? Not so confident now, or what?

At least I'm fully willing to stand by my predictions. Again:

http://www.afceastreport.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=199

If anyone made more accurate predictions about our team I for one would surely like to see them. I distinctly remember how many said we were poised for the playoffs.

[justasportsfan]

Hey also,

You and I had some big talk a couple weeks back when you offered to wager me on team performance this year. I made a statement, you countered telling me that I was wrong. I made you the offer of a wager. You said send you an e-mail. I have, three times now to confirm.

You haven't answered.

Why not? If I'm so FoS then it's an easy win for you.

Again, so what gives? Not so confident now, or what?

At least I'm fully willing to stand by my predictions. Again:

http://www.afceastreport.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=199

If anyone made more accurate predictions about our team I for one would surely like to see them. I distinctly remember how many said we were poised for the playoffs.
Did you check your PM? I sent you a PM.

[Wys Guy]

You can scan through without reading.


Aha! discussion goes both ways. Why can't I have a disscussion about the possibilities that something positive can happen without some nancy butting in and short no saying "NO That's not possible , the only possible thing is that we will suck"? You then turn around and say we can't discuss?

I mean seriously, you talk about the O and then it get's hijacked and turned into the D sucks.

Again, I can talk to Mark and hang out with Mark , but I can read wys' stuff just like I can hang with Bryan and drink with bryan but I can't stand OP whining.

Don't take it personal. Calling a post or article garbage is not personal. Only someone like Moran says it is. Most of us are different on the boards than we are in person.

Now you're splitting hairs on what "reading" is an implying that you scan them. Then fine, find for me some specific examples of exactly what you talk about and provide a number of them since it's so prevalent. Facts speak louder than opinions.

It becomes personal when insinuations are made that are character assaults or demean someone. Other than when I believe it's clearly joking around, I always attempt to avoid that and think that I do a pretty daggoned good job.

I will not attempt to defend Op's, or PatMoran's, or anyone else's views as I probably read only a fraction of them and would have to first do some research before attempting that. I don't have time let alone desire for that and frankly they, or anyone else, can defend their own positions. I know Op and we've hung out on rare occasions, mostly in the past. I don't know nor have ever met Pat ever.

But I will say this about them and then imply it about many other posters, but they are the ones that are routinely attacked by posters not in agreement. Their conversations revolve around football before being turned into a catfight by "the mob." (as in mob rules)

But wait, here you are slamming them for discussing football.

I mean seriously, you talk about the O and then it get's hijacked and turned into the D sucks.

First of all, that about me is entirely incorrect unless there was a segway for it. But WTH, this is supposed to be a football forum.

So in essence then, in your eyes and opinion, there's no room here for talk of the defense in a thread about the offense, but when two-thirds of the posts deteriorate to personal and nonsensical non-football related stuff then that's "approved" by you.

Got it.

Again, just a great reminder, at least to me, why many a good people very knowledgeable about football avoid message boards.

[Wys Guy]

Did you check your PM? I sent you a PM.

As I've told others, you included, PMs are unreliable. I don't "live" here like many people do. LOL

I prefer e-mail like the rest of the civilized world. ;)

[justasportsfan]

Now you're splitting hairs on what "reading" is an implying that you scan them. Then fine, find for me some specific examples of exactly what you talk about and provide a number of them since it's so prevalent. Facts speak louder than opinions.

It becomes personal when insinuations are made that are character assaults or demean someone. Other than when I believe it's clearly joking around, I always attempt to avoid that and think that I do a pretty daggoned good job.

I will not attempt to defend Op's, or PatMoran's, or anyone else's views as I probably read only a fraction of them and would have to first do some research before attempting that. I don't have time let alone desire for that and frankly they, or anyone else, can defend their own positions. I know Op and we've hung out on rare occasions, mostly in the past. I don't know nor have ever met Pat ever.

But I will say this about them and then imply it about many other posters, but they are the ones that are routinely attacked by posters not in agreement. Their conversations revolve around football before being turned into a catfight by "the mob." (as in mob rules)

But wait, here you are slamming them for discussing football.

I mean seriously, you talk about the O and then it get's hijacked and turned into the D sucks.

First of all, that about me is entirely incorrect unless there was a segway for it. But WTH, this is supposed to be a football forum.

So in essence then, in your eyes and opinion, there's no room here for talk of the defense in a thread about the offense, but when two-thirds of the posts deteriorate to personal and nonsensical non-football related stuff then that's "approved" by you.

Got it.

Again, just a great reminder, at least to me, why many a good people very knowledgeable about football avoid message boards.


I scanned through your posts ( speed reading) saw certain words that I've read through before. Same stuff.

Just like I scanned through your posts and the thing that caught my eye is the Op and Moran thing .

You've already attempted to defend Op and Moran by saying they are not pessimists.

UH, I wasn't talking about you about hijacking a thread so there rest is moot. If you talk about the O and tell me that the D blowshow is that having a disscussion.


I do not approve anything around here, it's the opposite. Thing is, you are not here often enough to know what goes on so your opinion about who calls who what is one sided like when you talk about character assaults. It goes both ways. Please do some research , you will see that character assaults meant to demean some goes both ways.

[OpIv37]

I start a thread about the possibilities of the O and OP turns it into how the D sucks.



Don't put that one on me- I knew you would ***** about it so I used the fork feature to start a new thread to discuss the flaws of the D. I know I've turned positive threads into ***** fests in the past, but this time it was other people, not me.

[justasportsfan]

Don't put that one on me- I knew you would ***** about it so I used the fork feature to start a new thread to discuss the flaws of the D. I know I've turned positive threads into ***** fests in the past, but this time it was other people, not me.


wasn't talking about that thread op :rolleyes:

I knew why you forked that thread in the first place , to prevent from having to repeat the thread we're talking about and thanks for doing so. But honestly, I don't care anymore. I expect that from you and the others that it doesn't bother me.

[Wys Guy]

I scanned through your posts ( speed reading) saw certain words that I've read through before. Same stuff.

Just like I scanned through your posts and the thing that caught my eye is the Op and Moran thing .

You've already attempted to defend Op and Moran by saying they are not pessimists.

UH, I wasn't talking about you about hijacking a thread so there rest is moot. If you talk about the O and tell me that the D blowshow is that having a disscussion.


I do not approve anything around here, it's the opposite. Thing is, you are not here often enough to know what goes on so your opinion about who calls who what is one sided like when you talk about character assaults. It goes both ways. Please do some research , you will see that character assaults meant to demean some goes both ways.

So now when I write I'm not supposed to use words over again.

And naturally, in spite of my "not being here often enough to know what goes on," while perhaps partially correct, it doesn't take a combination Einstein-Sherlock Holmes to figure out the jist of it with a few brief reads around here.

Moreover, how then are you an expert with my "not being here often enough," also then signifying that I haven't posted much regarding my football opinions, and I really haven't recently, coupled with your admissions that you don't nor have read my stuff in recent history? Funny how things that you apply to others you yourself (and others) are entirely immune to.

You crack me up. If that applied to everyone here, including yourself, these forums would be blank.

I'm done with this thread. It has degraded into nonsense.

I will look for your ante-ing up to the wager that your first suggested, in my e-mail. It still isn't there. All you have to do is open any one of my three notes, type "yes" and send it back.

Should take all of what, five seconds.

I'll be awaiting.

Also, in Thurm's thread about "The truth about realists" I posed a challenge open to all.

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=127739

[justasportsfan]

I will look for your ante-ing up to the wager that your first suggested, in my e-mail. It still isn't there. All you have to do is open any one of my three notes, type "yes" and send it back.


pffft. You've seen proof that I responded to you. via pm. Not my fault you had ...... nevermind ;)

[Wys Guy]

pffft. You've seen proof that I responded to you. via pm. Not my fault you had ...... nevermind ;)

Sorry, never did confirm, anywhere. Meanwhile, I've since sent you an e-mail to that new addy you just gave me via PM, exactly 30 minutes ago now, and still haven't even heard back that this e-mail addy is even working.

Keep talkin' pardner. How long is this going to continue. If you want to reneg on your wager offer, just say so. It's easy. ;)

Double pffft to you too. :D

And a nya-nya-nya-nya-nya-nyaaa to boot.

:funny:

[Mitchy moo]

Homers enjoy the beatings, Realists gotta ruin it for them

lol.:bandwagon

[SABURZFAN]

[QUOTE=justasportsfan]Again, I can talk to Mark and hang out with Mark , but I can read wys' stuff just like I can hang with Bryan and drink with bryan but I can't stand OP whining.
QUOTE]


funny how it's considered whining when YOU don't agree with what a poster says.i don't consider Op's posts whining.the whiners are the jerkoffs who don't agree and try to drag out a useless argument that they can't win.

[raphael120]

Every minute of every day, I think the best of our team. Right now, we're contenders. The fans of 31 other teams think the same way. Who says we're wrong?

Some fans have more reason to think theyre contenders, though. Are you telling me the Steelers fans, Colts fans, Patriots fans, Baltimore fans, Chargers fans, in reality, really think on the same level as Bills fans do? If a Steelers fan comes up to you and says "We're going to the Super Bowl", you'll give him some credit and say, yeh you know what, you damn well might.

Try goin up to someone and saying "The Bills are going to the Super Bowl this season!", and i GUARANTEE you're going to be laughed at. They'll probably give the response "Yeah, and they'll lose 4 years straight!"

I think you have to have a sense of ignorance and blind faith to believe the Bills are going to have the same shot as those other teams I mentioned. Those teams are perennial winners...the Bills are not... Yet.

I'm a Bills fan, but I also know what being a Bills fan means. It means close losses, blow outs, high expectations that are NEVER met, and lots and lots of stress and frustration. But that's the nature of the beast, the Bills are my team, they're the team of my hometown that I love. You have to have a sense of humor about this team or you'll be a very miserable person! I've seen the homer vs. realist battles going on here, and it's funny sometimes trying to convince eachother what's going to happen. All I know is when someone is telling you it's going to snow in Texas after 7 straight years of no snow, it's hard to convince other people that know past history.

We all equally love our team, some just don't like to be dissapointed. It's like relationships...you try not to get too attached because you've been screwed over before so you don't want to open up to a team and just put too much of your heart into it. Until you find a good reason to believe that much...and for me, I haven't seen a good reason yet. But that might change this season, it might not. But either way, I'm a fan, I want the Bills to win, but just because you want them to very much, doesn't mean they will. So until I have a reason to believe that things have changed and I'm not going to be setting myself up for extreme dissapointment, then I'm not going to hold my breath. It's just been an up year with momentum, then a down year where youre like "What the hell happened to us supposivly getting better???", for 7 years now. Last year was our mid level up year with momentum but I'm expecting bad things.

It's just the nature of it, it's what you're used to as a Bills fan. Just like the Sabres. I mean, it's just Buffalo in a nutshell, but it doesnt make you any less passionate. Some people boast nice beaches and nice weather, but you know what this summer I am headin up to Buffalo to see family and I'm looking more forward to that than I am going to Vegas later on this summer. It's what being a Buffalonian is all about, and I'm proud of that.

You can say that homers just have a short memory span but realists are very sensitive to pain and remember EVERYTHING. Haha.

[raphael120]

[quote=THATHURMANATOR]My yearly prediction thread was done in somewhat of a joking fashion. Do I think the Bills will be 10-6? Only if every possible thing that needed to happen does.
quote]

So you even admit that it's going to be VERY hard for us to be 10-6...which is just BARELY getting a wild card spot? So you think EVERYTHING has to go right for us to be barely good enough? That's why Op, Pat, and Wys have reason to be skeptical, and everyone else. We don't want to be barely good enough, we want to be GOOD, GREAT! Not just barely getting by.

[Mr. Pink]

[quote=THATHURMANATOR]My yearly prediction thread was done in somewhat of a joking fashion. Do I think the Bills will be 10-6? Only if every possible thing that needed to happen does.
quote]

So you even admit that it's going to be VERY hard for us to be 10-6...which is just BARELY getting a wild card spot? So you think EVERYTHING has to go right for us to be barely good enough? That's why Op, Pat, and Wys have reason to be skeptical, and everyone else. We don't want to be barely good enough, we want to be GOOD, GREAT! Not just barely getting by.


In long term hopes, you're correct there Raph...I want to see us win a Superbowl, gain some national respect, get some notoriety-all that comes with winning..BUT...

The team assembled this year, is not good enough for that. Plain and simple. We're building toward a future, yes we've been doing this for years now, but to be a fan of the team...you have to actually think that maybe they'll get it right this time.

We'd need every break, every bounce and every rookie to perform out of their minds in order to reach 10-6. Way too many variables involved for that to occur. Hopefully, we stay competitive this year, mostly. We did play competitive ball last year, much to my surprise and happiness. Also, hopefully, our young players start to come together as a cohesive unit and grow within the system. Then when we go out next year, draft and FA, the pieces brought in to push us to that next level can easily fit in to a close knit "family."

The homer thinks, every move is right, and nothing we do is wrong. For example, Langston Walker, who Raider Fan is absolutely thrilled he's gone. He hasn't played at an average level yet in his NFL career, yet SOME, keyword some, people around here think he'll help solidify our line. Signing him in a realistic look at it, sees that he's been junk and most likely a bad move by the organization.

Do I hope he does well? Certainly. Do I expect him to do well? Absolutely not. There is nothing to suggest he will. I can't wear the rose petalled glasses and just go, well we signed the guy so he's great. Hell, Bennie Anderson was a better O-lineman than this guy, and we lambasted Dolphin Fan for being optimistic on him...with good reason, I might add.

Also Raphael, your post before was right on target about all of this. I've only been a Bills fan ever since the Browns left Cleveland and the organization did Dawg Pound day. I used to laugh at the Bills misfortunes in Superbowl loss after superbowl loss...Thurm knew me in high school and we used to jibe at each other constantly about Browns-Bills stuff. But since they honored the Browns fans, and without Cleveland football to root for, I started rooting for the Bills. So all I've known here is disappointment and mediocrity. Bad signing after bad signing. It's hard to just go, oh, this is finally the year we got everything right and we're gonna do well.

Plus, being a Browns fan, who by the way are going to absolutely suck this year, I'm used to heartbreak after heartbreak. Even when the team was good. When you grow up in a sports market where heartbreak is the norm, heartbreak is what you expect. It's the nature of being a fan of a team that gets so close, yet can't get over the hump. And, I'm still steamed over watching Art Modell lift the Lombardi trophy when the Ravens won.

[raphael120]

:clap:

[RedEyE]

IMO, a realist is one that can be defined as taking life as one perception at a time, for what it is, and for what it's worth.

A true Realist will see an apple as an apple. And if that apple is sliced in 8 pieces, he then still sees it as an apple.

An Optimist would see the same sliced apple and be estatic with an opportunity to share with 7 friends, and possibly even go hungry if an 8th friend suddenly showed up unannounced.

A Pessimist would see the same sliced apple and panic that the 8 slices wouldn't last an hour, or he might even go as far as saying that the apple is rotting as we speak.

A Cynic is a pessimist... compunded. He would see the same sliced apple and before watching 8 people eat the slices, he would then openly state that the apple just wasn't big enough to divide, and that it appeared to be old or dirty and he might even go as far as asking if the apple had been checked for poison. And if someone then got sick from eating the apple, the cynic would then say repeatedly, "See!? I told you so!"

A Defeatist is also a pessimist but tends to turn the tables on himself rather then blaming others all the time. The defeatist would see the same sliced apple and would immediately respond by stating how he obviously won't be included in the distribution of slices. And if given a piece, he obvioulsy got the smallest of 8. A defeatist would also ulitmately think that his presence could be the lone cause of the person that got sick from eating the apple -more then liekly though, the defeatist would be the one to get sick.

A Homer is optimistic yet blind and deaf to criticism. A homer would look at the same apple and think its the greatest apple ever, and firmly believe that any apple compared to it is of a lesser stature. When fact intervenes and provides proof that the apple was actually not the best in the bushel, a Homer would then respond by saying that the owner of the apple specifically set out purposely to divide a less valuable apple and that he really, really can't believe what a good idea this was, and can't wait for the next apple.

[StillLurkin]

I'm neither, I'm just optimistic. Thats the way I am about everything. I bleed Bills football, but I realize that it's just a game, just entertainment. While I do get PO'd after a loss, it doesn't change my life. At the end of the day my life is no better, or no worse because the Bills missed the playoffs, or they didn't draft player "X" in the second round instead of the first. I have bigger things to worry about than is JP the answer. What I look foward to is exciting games, and seeing my fellow season ticket holders that over the years have become friends.

[Wys Guy]

[quote=justasportsfan]Again, I can talk to Mark and hang out with Mark , but I can read wys' stuff just like I can hang with Bryan and drink with bryan but I can't stand OP whining.
QUOTE]


funny how it's considered whining when YOU don't agree with what a poster says.i don't consider Op's posts whining.the whiners are the jerkoffs who don't agree and try to drag out a useless argument that they can't win.

Great point.

[Wys Guy]

Some fans have more reason to think theyre contenders, though. Are you telling me the Steelers fans, Colts fans, Patriots fans, Baltimore fans, Chargers fans, in reality, really think on the same level as Bills fans do? If a Steelers fan comes up to you and says "We're going to the Super Bowl", you'll give him some credit and say, yeh you know what, you damn well might.

...

It's just the nature of it, it's what you're used to as a Bills fan. Just like the Sabres. I mean, it's just Buffalo in a nutshell, but it doesnt make you any less passionate. Some people boast nice beaches and nice weather, but you know what this summer I am headin up to Buffalo to see family and I'm looking more forward to that than I am going to Vegas later on this summer. It's what being a Buffalonian is all about, and I'm proud of that.

You can say that homers just have a short memory span but realists are very sensitive to pain and remember EVERYTHING. Haha.

Very nice.

[Wys Guy]

Every minute of every day, I think the best of our team. Right now, we're contenders. The fans of 31 other teams think the same way. Who says we're wrong?

Hey cas,

raphael made a good point. All 32 teams don't have the same chances of success this season.

The reason being that the ones that have the greatest shot of winning a Super Bowl are the ones that are the best managed. Unfortunately, until further notice, we can't claim that we are among them. IMO it's precarious at best, and you probably know that MO is that we are just as mismanaged as we were under Donadope. Not that that matters for the sake of this discussion, just pointing it out.

What you have to keep in mind is that message boards (all of them) are one of the few high profile forums. It is my assertion that the team does read them and therefore likely overestimates the fan reaction to their management. Whether anyone admits to it or not, the fan sites and MBs tend more towards the homeristic side of things than towards realism. Here the corporate culture drives it that way which is precisely the reason I left two years ago. That side, the "homeristic" side won out in the struggles behind the scenes.

One of the things that I wanted was simply a forum to call my own for those that merely wanted to discuss football on the merits of football without all the personal politics, one way or the other. There would still be a demand for such a forum, but it would take a dedicated mod for that with a low tolerance for nonsense.

Regardless, as such, I view the fans that sit still for what management has given us for nearly a decade now as contributing to the problems. It's very much like politics. Politicians, in this case the team's management, who in part are politicians, will do exactly what they want until a critical mass exists at which time they will do what's necessary to please their constituents.

But as long as they think that the constituents are happy, then they won't necessarily. The "they" in this case is Wilson. He could have made quite a few better decisions over the years recently.

IMO MBs give the team the false impression that most of the fans support what they do because, again, most if not all MBs lean "homer." When I walk around "the streets" of Buffalo when up there it's interesting how the average fan's opinion is way less than what the average MB fan's opinion is. That's because MBs draw homers, ultimately anyway, and then "enforce" homerism or at least reluctant compliance with "support everything the team does [or else]" kind of thinking/oversight.

Throughout history when people don't speak up and take action, things don't get done from the abolition of slavery, a very serious thing, to merely consumer outrage on smaller things.

We as fans of this team are consumers. But as long as we're all happy because the "shack that we live in has no leaks," the organization will see to it that it never has any leaks. If we start complaining that there's no running water hot and cold, then all of a sudden we've raised the ante, haven't we.

Maybe I'm entirely wrong. I don't think so though.

If not, then we're going to get a winner much more quickly by dissenting with what's being done that is shortchanging us.

[Wys Guy]

Dictonary Definitions:

Realist:

One who is inclined to literal truth and pragmatism.

Cynic:

A person whose outlook is scornfully and often habitually negative.

Defeatist:

Acceptance of or resignation to the prospect of defeat.

Definition: pessimist
Antonyms: optimist


Optimist:

One who usually expects a favorable outcome.

Pessimist:

person who expects the worst


Now, if we're going to call a spade a spade, I'm a realist.

Let's say that you (the reader) decides that someone is a "pessimist." A person who expects the worst. Consider that inherent in the definition of pessimist is that such would be the normal outlook of a pessimist under any circumstances. Ergo, someone that in a season where expectations were higher predicted (Bills) better things could not by definition be a pessimist since they are not defined as such always.

Either way, you've determined for the moment that a person is a pessimist. But, at the end of the season that person's fears were all legitmate and founded in hindsight. Would you then consider that person to have been, at least for the moment, a realist?

Certainly one can say that a person with a more favorable outcome prior to the season than the actual outcome, could be considered an optimist, and therefore with the same implications, namely that that person by definition would then, if an optimist, hold to extreme favorable views every season. But suppose that person is wrong for years straight? Then it would be safe to say that that person was not a realist and is in fact an optimist.

I suppose the bottom line to it all is that one's beliefs either need to be validated, wholly or partially, and/or invalidate, wholly or partially, and what a person is can be determined by a series of years wherein it is assessed whether a person's beliefs fall into one category or another.

IMO there are definitely some good points about the Bills, but as a collective they simply are not enough to produce a favorable result for the team as a whole. I have another article written addressing the strategic viewpoints of the same outlooks that few seem to consider.

E.g., if we couldn'f afford Clements then how will we afford Evans or Peters when their contracts come up, which will be sooner than the end of either's current contract in spite of the fact that Peters just got an extension. If he continues to improve as we all think he will and for good reason, then we will have to pay him in line with the best.

[Wys Guy]

I suppose that in a year where we don't do well, it's difficult, with that year in a vacuum, to separate the pessimists and the realists. I just refuse to believe that anyone that cares about their team enough to waste time posting about them could possibly be a pessimist.

[justasportsfan]

funny how it's considered whining when YOU don't agree with what a poster says.i don't consider Op's posts whining.the whiners are the jerkoffs who don't agree and try to drag out a useless argument that they can't win.


when I say I'm excited about the O and he replies with " the D sucks" which has nothing to do with what I said, That's a whine. Not everything Op's says we disagree on. I've thanked him and he's done the same. When you keep repating the same things over and over, it's a whine.

[feldspar]

This thread is getting out of hand. It proves that we've run out of things to talk about. God, I wish this were football season.

The bottom line is people want to have hope for this team, and there's every reason to have hope. Why someone would want to destroy another's hope is beyond me. Of course there are things wrong with this football team. There are things wrong with every football team. Look at the Colts run defense last year; it was the worst in the league during the regular season last year. Yet they won the Super Bowl, no? If we steal a few games over the course of the season, we very well could make the playoffs this year. If I'm delusional in thinking this, so-be-it. It makes me happy. That's beside the point anyway because nobody knows what is going to happen.

[OpIv37]

This thread is getting out of hand. It proves that we've run out of things to talk about. God, I wish this were football season.

The bottom line is people want to have hope for this team, and there's every reason to have hope. Why someone would want to destroy another's hope is beyond me. Of course there are things wrong with this football team. There are things wrong with every football team. Look at the Colts run defense last year; it was the worst in the league during the regular season last year. Yet they won the Super Bowl, no? If we steal a few games over the course of the season, we very well could make the playoffs this year. If I'm delusional in thinking this, so-be-it. It makes me happy. That's beside the point anyway because nobody knows what is going to happen.

If one person has hopes that another person deems unrealistic, why is it wrong to say it? People talk like the other "pessimists/realists/whiners/negative nancys" go around intentially trying to crush people's hopes and dreams. First, if all it takes to destroy one's hope is an anonymous post on a message board, someone is being overly sensitive. Second, if the hopes pertain to the Bills- ie the subject of the message board- and someone else is less hopeful or not hopeful at all, saying so is simply discussing the team.

For example, if someone were to say "I think the DL will be a lot better with McCargo" and I respond with "McCargo didn't play all that well last year, has a history of injuries and is missing conditioning time", how is that destroying hope? It's simply discussing a player on our team. Now, neither side of that argument knows how McCargo will play- he could be great, he could suck. But simply pointing out facts about a player shouldn't be construed as "destroying hope" just because those facts suggest something other than the player being a superstar (ok, the part about how McCargo played last year can be debated but the rest of it is fact and is pertinent to predicting how McCargo will play this year).

As far as your "steal a few games and make the playoffs"- it's possible, no one's saying it isn't. But I can give you a long list of reasons why it's highly unlikely, and even you admit that a lot of things would have to go our way for that to happen. So, you're not delusional for hoping it happens - we're all hoping it happens- but you would be delusional if you expected it to happen.

[feldspar]

If one person has hopes that another person deems unrealistic, why is it wrong to say it? People talk like the other "pessimists/realists/whiners/negative nancys" go around intentially trying to crush people's hopes and dreams. First, if all it takes to destroy one's hope is an anonymous post on a message board, someone is being overly sensitive. Second, if the hopes pertain to the Bills- ie the subject of the message board- and someone else is less hopeful or not hopeful at all, saying so is simply discussing the team.

For example, if someone were to say "I think the DL will be a lot better with McCargo" and I respond with "McCargo didn't play all that well last year, has a history of injuries and is missing conditioning time", how is that destroying hope? It's simply discussing a player on our team. Now, neither side of that argument knows how McCargo will play- he could be great, he could suck. But simply pointing out facts about a player shouldn't be construed as "destroying hope" just because those facts suggest something other than the player being a superstar (ok, the part about how McCargo played last year can be debated but the rest of it is fact and is pertinent to predicting how McCargo will play this year).

As far as your "steal a few games and make the playoffs"- it's possible, no one's saying it isn't. But I can give you a long list of reasons why it's highly unlikely, and even you admit that a lot of things would have to go our way for that to happen. So, you're not delusional for hoping it happens - we're all hoping it happens- but you would be delusional if you expected it to happen.

I really don't care too much about other people's opinions. It's fun to talk, but in the end, I'll make up my own mind.

[OpIv37]

I really don't care too much about other people's opinions. It's fun to talk, but in the end, I'll make up my own mind.

the reason I get so frustrated is because people make up their minds without considering all of the available information.

[seanbillsfan]

New guy here, bills fan from birth and always will be! I see it both ways, i expect greatness but it is impossible to be at the top forever, remember how bad the pats were for like 20 yrs straight? I really think we have something going, but i can accept the fact that it might not mold this year. i would call myself a realistic homer!

[Mr. Pink]

I really don't care too much about other people's opinions. It's fun to talk, but in the end, I'll make up my own mind.


I don't mean to come across as an ass on this question nor offend you. However I must ask something. If you don't care about others opinions as you say, why do you post on a message board?

[feldspar]

I don't mean to come across as an ass on this question nor offend you. However I must ask something. If you don't care about others opinions as you say, why do you post on a message board?

Read my post again, buddy.

I said "it's fun to talk."

I post on message boards because I enjoy it. Let me clarify; when I say that I don't care about other people's opinions, that only means that I think for myself, not that I won't listen to other people's opinions. In other words, I'll take a stand on an issue, and if someone disagrees, I'm not about to go to pieces or cave in.

[feldspar]

the reason I get so frustrated is because people make up their minds without considering all of the available information.

I hear ya.

But I'm sure that some of the people you disagree with on certain things feel the same way about you. There are different ways to interpret information.

It's all good.

Go Bills.

[justasportsfan]

Sorry, never did confirm, anywhere. Meanwhile, I've since sent you an e-mail to that new addy you just gave me via PM, exactly 30 minutes ago now, and still haven't even heard back that this e-mail addy is even working.

Keep talkin' pardner. How long is this going to continue. If you want to reneg on your wager offer, just say so. It's easy. ;)

Double pffft to you too. :D

And a nya-nya-nya-nya-nya-nyaaa to boot.

:funny:


Man seriously. I told you that's my email at work and that I'll read it on Tues. I know everday is a sunday to you but to us it's memorial day weekend and we're not at work . Hello. If I'm the one sidestepping the wager then why can't we settle it via pm since you've obviously been reading them?

[SABURZFAN]

when I say I'm excited about the O and he replies with " the D sucks" which has nothing to do with what I said, That's a whine. Not everything Op's says we disagree on. I've thanked him and he's done the same. When you keep repating the same things over and over, it's a whine.


i rest my case.

[FlyingDutchman]

the reason I get so frustrated is because people make up their minds without considering all of the available information.

No, you just dont agree with conclusion of the information they come to and you constantly let the person know. instead of just simply you stating your opinion or constructively arguing, you often condemn positive people as stupid or unrealistic and see your opinion as the way it really is and people are just too blind to see it. you were pretty off in many occasions last year instead of just enjoying the ride and seeing what happens. some people would just rather focus on positive things in the preseason. if theyre setting themselves up for a let down so be it. ill take getting excited to watch my bills and be letdown instead of moaning and having no excitement for the coming season. If anything people see the direction this team is headed and are exctited about that. Sure we are in no way near the Patriots or Colts or any other serious contenders, however the pieces are there to start making moves and im not just gonna wait around til they ARE actually a great team to be excited, ill start now.

[Jan Reimers]

The most adamant, outspoken "realists" are actually delusional. They have deluded themselves into thinking their opinions are fact. They have deluded themselves into thinking that they know more about football than the Bills' FO.

And a couple have even deluded themselves into thinking that they're journalists.

[John Doe]

No, you just dont agree with conclusion of the information they come to and you constantly let the person know. instead of just simply you stating your opinion or constructively arguing, you often condemn positive people as stupid or unrealistic and see your opinion as the way it really is and people are just too blind to see it.

I can remember a number of occasions that he started off by calling the posts that he was responding to "moronic" - i.e. written by a moron. And these were people that had done nothing to denigrate him.

[Michael82]

I guess my biggest problem with the "pessimists" AKA "realists" is that they don't ever stop. They keep hounding us optimistic fans and homers until we want to bash our heads into the wall. IF these guys didn't beat the horse to a bloody pulp and keep pounding their "facts" and stats and personal opinions about a player, then maybe we would all get along. But several of them, you guys know who you are....continue to post the same **** in 100 different threads and bring that thread off topic or kill it. My problem and many others is that they won't just let it end. It seems like they need to tell us 50 different times that Langston Walker sucks, even though we already know. It seems like they need to tell in 10 more threads that the offensive line is still a weak link. It seems like they need to tell us that Josh Reed and Peerless Price are bums. But one time isn't enough. That right there is my problem and I'm sure many others would agree. If they didn't beat their own drum 1000 times, maybe people wouldn't mind. But remember, they like us to know their opinion about the team and be as depressed and upset about the team as they are. It seems like they want to bring us down! That's my beef!

What do you all think? :feedback:

[SABURZFAN]

I guess my biggest problem with the "pessimists" AKA "realists" is that they don't ever stop. They keep hounding us optimistic fans and homers until we want to bash our heads into the wall. IF these guys didn't beat the horse to a bloody pulp and keep pounding their "facts" and stats and personal opinions about a player, then maybe we would all get along. But several of them, you guys know who you are....continue to post the same **** in 100 different threads and bring that thread off topic or kill it. My problem and many others is that they won't just let it end. It seems like they need to tell us 50 different times that Langston Walker sucks, even though we already know. It seems like they need to tell in 10 more threads that the offensive line is still a weak link. It seems like they need to tell us that Josh Reed and Peerless Price are bums. But one time isn't enough. That right there is my problem and I'm sure many others would agree. If they didn't beat their own drum 1000 times, maybe people wouldn't mind. But remember, they like us to know their opinion about the team and be as depressed and upset about the team as they are. It seems like they want to bring us down! That's my beef!

What do you all think? :feedback:


:laughter:


you're quick to jump all over the pessimists or realists or whatever when the other side of the coin is just as guilty,if not more.but yet,THAT doesn't seem to bother you.

[Michael82]

:laughter:


you're quick to jump all over the pessimists or realists or whatever when the other side of the coin is just as guilty,if not more.but yet,THAT doesn't seem to bother you.
so the homers and optimists talking about the good stuff with the team all the time bother you? Why? :scratch:

[HAMMER]

No, you just dont agree with conclusion of the information they come to and you constantly let the person know. instead of just simply you stating your opinion or constructively arguing, you often condemn positive people as stupid or unrealistic and see your opinion as the way it really is and people are just too blind to see it. you were pretty off in many occasions last year instead of just enjoying the ride and seeing what happens. some people would just rather focus on positive things in the preseason. if theyre setting themselves up for a let down so be it. ill take getting excited to watch my bills and be letdown instead of moaning and having no excitement for the coming season. If anything people see the direction this team is headed and are exctited about that. Sure we are in no way near the Patriots or Colts or any other serious contenders, however the pieces are there to start making moves and im not just gonna wait around til they ARE actually a great team to be excited, ill start now.

Great post.

[YardRat]

I guess my biggest problem with the "optimists" AKA "homers" is that they don't ever stop. They keep hounding us realistic fans and "haters" until we want to bash our heads into the wall. IF these guys didn't beat the horse to a bloody pulp and keep pounding their "facts" and stats and personal opinions about a player, then maybe we would all get along. But several of them, you guys know who you are....continue to post the same **** in 100 different threads and bring that thread off topic or kill it. My problem and many others is that they won't just let it end. It seems like they need to tell us 50 different times that Langston Walker is the godsend at right tackle, even though we already know. It seems like they need to tell in 10 more threads that the offensive line is all of a sudden 'dominant'. It seems like they need to tell us that Josh Reed and Peerless Price are legitimate #2 receivers. But one time isn't enough. That right there is my problem and I'm sure many others would agree. If they didn't beat their own drum 1000 times, maybe people wouldn't mind. But remember, they like us to know their opinion about the team and be as delusional and homerific about the team as they are. It seems like they want everybody to think that the team is Super Bowl contenders, and every new player is automatically an upgrade or Pro Bowl status just because they're now wearing a Bills uniform! That's my beef!

What do you all think? :feedback:

I think this is the other side of the coin.

[Michael82]

I think this is the other side of the coin.
:rofl: There aren't many people like that. those would be the super homers. And they are annoying too.

[Jan Reimers]

so the homers and optimists talking about the good stuff with the team all the time bother you? Why? :scratch:
Actually, before all the name calling started, I used to think of us homers simply as fans - the kind of people that were optimistic about the Bills, supportive of the FO, coaching staff and players, and hopeful for improvement. We know the Bills have weaknesses, but we believe they are turning things around, and have a number of areas that are getting really good.

We want to give young guys like Youboty and McCargo a chance to prove themselves before we decide they suck, and to think that great college players like Poz and Lynch will be equally great for us. And that our rookies from last year - Whitner, Simpson, Ellison and Williams - will get better.

We're excited about the retooled O-line, and think that our big three of JP, Evans and Lynch could be very special. We're hopeful that the young D will mature into a respectable unit.

But I now know I'm not being realistic, because I've been told over and over how bad things really are.

[Bufftp]

I don't know where I stand. Homer or Realists. I go into every game hoping, believing the Bills can win. On the other hand my expections are we have a 5-6 win team this year but an optimistic conviction that we are putting together peice by piece a very good suad that will bear fruit in the very near future.

I will enjoy watching this team grow.

I guess I am a dualist.

[JJamezz]

I have two major problems with all this realist-homer crap.. incidentally, its funny how those names came about, 'homer' having an obviously negative connotation, and 'realist', well, basically that means 'I'm right and you're wrong'... but I digress..

One problem is this - and it goes both ways, but in my view swings more toward the 'realist' side - why do people have this incessant need to have to make sure other people think about things exactly the way they do? People will claim they're only stating their opinion - mentioning something once or twice is stating your opinion - regurgitating the same s**t over, and over, and over again.. is PURELY an attempt to show how right you are, and how wrong the other person is.. Who the f*** cares if someone else doesn't agree with you? Aren't we allowed to have our own thoughts and feelings on a topic?

Second is this.. I simply don't see the point in *****ing and moaning about things that you have no control over. Offer an opinion, yes (see above) - but nobody wants to hear your endless rants of obsession.. except possibly yourself. You're not on the Bills payroll, and no matter how much you think you should be, your complaints mean ZIP, NADA, absolutely nothing!

I can't speak for all the 'homers'.. but since the Bills don't give a rats ass about my opinions, I choose to view it for what it is, entertainment. A much needed distraction from a life thats not always so fun to be living. I personally don't want to taint that with negativity and what if's.. but if you do, thats great, to each his own. I just wish people didn't have to try so hard to bring everyone down (or up) around them. Unfortunately that will never change, its just how people are - we all have some desire/need to convince people that we are right about everything (or almost everything).

[Bufftp]

:bf1:

[HHURRICANE]

I guess my biggest problem with the "pessimists" AKA "realists" is that they don't ever stop. They keep hounding us optimistic fans and homers until we want to bash our heads into the wall. IF these guys didn't beat the horse to a bloody pulp and keep pounding their "facts" and stats and personal opinions about a player, then maybe we would all get along. But several of them, you guys know who you are....continue to post the same **** in 100 different threads and bring that thread off topic or kill it. My problem and many others is that they won't just let it end. It seems like they need to tell us 50 different times that Langston Walker sucks, even though we already know. It seems like they need to tell in 10 more threads that the offensive line is still a weak link. It seems like they need to tell us that Josh Reed and Peerless Price are bums. But one time isn't enough. That right there is my problem and I'm sure many others would agree. If they didn't beat their own drum 1000 times, maybe people wouldn't mind. But remember, they like us to know their opinion about the team and be as depressed and upset about the team as they are. It seems like they want to bring us down! That's my beef!

What do you all think? :feedback:

I consider myself a realist but I've posted plenty of good around here. The one ***** that I continue to have is that the Homers never back up their (10-6) or playoff comments. Why?

For the record and opinion of HH:

Pros:
1) Dick Jauron is an excellent coach. Would are record have been 7-9 without him? I think not.

2) Dockery was a great signing. The line will be better. Period.
3) Out TE and WR recever play will be much improved because of the OL and the continuity that we haven't had in 8 years. FACT.
4) Our draft was excellent and Lynch, Thomas, and Wright will be punishing Ds this year.

Concerns:
1) Our DL is in trouble without a healthy McCargo and Darwin Walker.
2) Our secondary can be good only if the above happens.
3) No way you can go into the season with just Crowell-Ellison-Poz and have no caliber backups. We don't have them. #1 issue on this team.
4) Our schedule.
5) Marv isn't God. Everyone wants to sweep the Clements mess under the rug and if, and only if, Darwin Walker goes back to Philly than you have to ask "WTF?"

I love this team and I'm excited about them being better. However, I would be thinking playoffs if McCargo was healthy, Walker was signed, and we had done more to shore up the LB position.

Guys, the objective is to win a Superbowl. Period.

[X-Era]

so the homers and optimists talking about the good stuff with the team all the time bother you? Why? :scratch:
Because hatred feeds more hatred.

Most if not all of the posters who respond so many times to this post have an opinion thats backed by strong ego. When they are questioned, they set out to prove themselves right. It becomes an obsession that has nothing to do with the Bills and more to do with never wanting to be wrong. The bulk of the fighting between the far left and right here is done by people with ego problems.

Just accept the fact that you will be wrong sometimes, stop annoying the piss out of people by trying to prove yourself right, swallow your pride, and move on.

Its mostly ego problems, always has been always will be.

You few that are so damn polar, and are annoying about it know who you are. I dont give two craps whether your right or wrong, even if the majority here is wrong about some topic, and your right, it still will leave you as nothing more than a ego-maniac getting carpal tunnel on a board meant to discuss our beloved Bills. Pretty damn pathetic if you ask me.

As a sign of good faith, I want to officially state that I was completely wrong about the Bills moving up for Peterson. :oops:

There isnt a single poster here that I dont like. But in keeping with the spirit of the thread, we could all do alot to simply quiet down sometimes and roll with the ebb and flow that is our lives as Bills fans. If you dongt your just inciting other Bills fans and purposely trying to annoy people, thats ignnorant, classless, and pathetic.

[!Papacrunk!]

usually the only opinion someone loves is their own. some may say other wise, but in the end they're usually selfish like that.

[X-Era]

usually the only opinion someone loves is their own. some may say other wise, but in the end they're usually selfish like that.

Just about on the money!

Why come to a discussion board if your not interested in any one elses opinion? Seems like a self inflicted wound to me.

[feldspar]

usually the only opinion someone loves is their own. some may say other wise, but in the end they're usually selfish like that.

Thank you. I'd say that's the case.

In a way, that's good because it's important to think for yourself. As they say, opinions are like ***holes; everyone's got one.

The best you can hope for is for reasonable people to consider contrary viewpoints.

[JJamezz]

HH - there isn't a SINGLE thing in your post that I disagree with - its obvious there's a glaring flaw in this whole argument - ~90% of the people on this board don't truly fall into either category.. they're like the 'Manics' and the 'Depressives', whereas most of us retain our sanity somewhere in the middle.

JP - you couldn't have said it better.

[Tatonka]

I have two major problems with all this realist-homer crap.. incidentally, its funny how those names came about, 'homer' having an obviously negative connotation, and 'realist', well, basically that means 'I'm right and you're wrong'... but I digress..

One problem is this - and it goes both ways, but in my view swings more toward the 'realist' side - why do people have this incessant need to have to make sure other people think about things exactly the way they do? People will claim they're only stating their opinion - mentioning something once or twice is stating your opinion - regurgitating the same s**t over, and over, and over again.. is PURELY an attempt to show how right you are, and how wrong the other person is.. Who the f*** cares if someone else doesn't agree with you? Aren't we allowed to have our own thoughts and feelings on a topic?

Second is this.. I simply don't see the point in *****ing and moaning about things that you have no control over. Offer an opinion, yes (see above) - but nobody wants to hear your endless rants of obsession.. except possibly yourself. You're not on the Bills payroll, and no matter how much you think you should be, your complaints mean ZIP, NADA, absolutely nothing!

I can't speak for all the 'homers'.. but since the Bills don't give a rats ass about my opinions, I choose to view it for what it is, entertainment. A much needed distraction from a life thats not always so fun to be living. I personally don't want to taint that with negativity and what if's.. but if you do, thats great, to each his own. I just wish people didn't have to try so hard to bring everyone down (or up) around them. Unfortunately that will never change, its just how people are - we all have some desire/need to convince people that we are right about everything (or almost everything).

post of the year.

:respect:

[The Spaz]

I have two major problems with all this realist-homer crap.. incidentally, its funny how those names came about, 'homer' having an obviously negative connotation, and 'realist', well, basically that means 'I'm right and you're wrong'... but I digress..

One problem is this - and it goes both ways, but in my view swings more toward the 'realist' side - why do people have this incessant need to have to make sure other people think about things exactly the way they do? People will claim they're only stating their opinion - mentioning something once or twice is stating your opinion - regurgitating the same s**t over, and over, and over again.. is PURELY an attempt to show how right you are, and how wrong the other person is.. Who the f*** cares if someone else doesn't agree with you? Aren't we allowed to have our own thoughts and feelings on a topic?

Second is this.. I simply don't see the point in *****ing and moaning about things that you have no control over. Offer an opinion, yes (see above) - but nobody wants to hear your endless rants of obsession.. except possibly yourself. You're not on the Bills payroll, and no matter how much you think you should be, your complaints mean ZIP, NADA, absolutely nothing!

I can't speak for all the 'homers'.. but since the Bills don't give a rats ass about my opinions, I choose to view it for what it is, entertainment. A much needed distraction from a life thats not always so fun to be living. I personally don't want to taint that with negativity and what if's.. but if you do, thats great, to each his own. I just wish people didn't have to try so hard to bring everyone down (or up) around them. Unfortunately that will never change, its just how people are - we all have some desire/need to convince people that we are right about everything (or almost everything).


Game, Set, Match!!:up::beers::clap:

[X-Era]

I have two major problems with all this realist-homer crap.. incidentally, its funny how those names came about, 'homer' having an obviously negative connotation, and 'realist', well, basically that means 'I'm right and you're wrong'... but I digress..

One problem is this - and it goes both ways, but in my view swings more toward the 'realist' side - why do people have this incessant need to have to make sure other people think about things exactly the way they do? People will claim they're only stating their opinion - mentioning something once or twice is stating your opinion - regurgitating the same s**t over, and over, and over again.. is PURELY an attempt to show how right you are, and how wrong the other person is.. Who the f*** cares if someone else doesn't agree with you? Aren't we allowed to have our own thoughts and feelings on a topic?

Second is this.. I simply don't see the point in *****ing and moaning about things that you have no control over. Offer an opinion, yes (see above) - but nobody wants to hear your endless rants of obsession.. except possibly yourself. You're not on the Bills payroll, and no matter how much you think you should be, your complaints mean ZIP, NADA, absolutely nothing!

I can't speak for all the 'homers'.. but since the Bills don't give a rats ass about my opinions, I choose to view it for what it is, entertainment. A much needed distraction from a life thats not always so fun to be living. I personally don't want to taint that with negativity and what if's.. but if you do, thats great, to each his own. I just wish people didn't have to try so hard to bring everyone down (or up) around them. Unfortunately that will never change, its just how people are - we all have some desire/need to convince people that we are right about everything (or almost everything).

A-flippin-men brother!!!

:clap:

Its just that simple. Its easy to disrepsect someone you may never have to face. Its hard to observe tolerance, some of the posters here arent up to the challenge.

[Dozerdog]

I have two major problems with all this realist-homer crap.. incidentally, its funny how those names came about, 'homer' having an obviously negative connotation, and 'realist', well, basically that means 'I'm right and you're wrong'... but I digress..

One problem is this - and it goes both ways, but in my view swings more toward the 'realist' side - why do people have this incessant need to have to make sure other people think about things exactly the way they do? People will claim they're only stating their opinion - mentioning something once or twice is stating your opinion - regurgitating the same s**t over, and over, and over again.. is PURELY an attempt to show how right you are, and how wrong the other person is.. Who the f*** cares if someone else doesn't agree with you? Aren't we allowed to have our own thoughts and feelings on a topic?

Second is this.. I simply don't see the point in *****ing and moaning about things that you have no control over. Offer an opinion, yes (see above) - but nobody wants to hear your endless rants of obsession.. except possibly yourself. You're not on the Bills payroll, and no matter how much you think you should be, your complaints mean ZIP, NADA, absolutely nothing!

I can't speak for all the 'homers'.. but since the Bills don't give a rats ass about my opinions, I choose to view it for what it is, entertainment. A much needed distraction from a life thats not always so fun to be living. I personally don't want to taint that with negativity and what if's.. but if you do, thats great, to each his own. I just wish people didn't have to try so hard to bring everyone down (or up) around them. Unfortunately that will never change, its just how people are - we all have some desire/need to convince people that we are right about everything (or almost everything).

This should be quoted in any thread where someone repeats the same spew over and over.

[OpIv37]

so the homers and optimists talking about the good stuff with the team all the time bother you? Why? :scratch:

I am REALLY trying to avoid arguments but when I see stuff like this, I have to jump in.

You know, everyone jumps all over the pessimists/realists/negative nancies by saying "the constant negativity is scaring away posters and hurting the board."

Well think about this: if people really want this board to be about good football discussion, they have to do more than just be cheerleaders for the Bills' FO. If people come here and see a bunch of "Youboty has a first round grade", "Lynch will be the top back in the AFCE by the end of the year" 'The DL will be better because of McCargo", "Who cares about the clause in the Walker trade? Let's just wait and see if he comes to camp" "The D won't hurt us because the OL is better and we'll be able to control the ball", etc, they're not going to think this board is about good football discussion. Fans of other teams or even realistic Bills fans are going to see that and think "these guys don't know anything about football- they're just about defending the home team."

Everyone here hates FinHeaven because they say it's a bunch of Fish homers. Well if this board becomes a bunch of Bills homers, the quality of discussion will decline even further.

If you want good football discussion on this board, you need analysis and both sides of the coin- not just a regurgitation of the company line spewing out of One Bills Drive. Chris Brown already has that covered.

[jmb1099]

I am REALLY trying to avoid arguments but when I see stuff like this, I have to jump in.

You know, everyone jumps all over the pessimists/realists/negative nancies by saying "the constant negativity is scaring away posters and hurting the board."

Well think about this: if people really want this board to be about good football discussion, they have to do more than just be cheerleaders for the Bills' FO. If people come here and see a bunch of "Youboty has a first round grade", "Lynch will be the top back in the AFCE by the end of the year" 'The DL will be better because of McCargo", "Who cares about the clause in the Walker trade? Let's just wait and see if he comes to camp" "The D won't hurt us because the OL is better and we'll be able to control the ball", etc, they're not going to think this board is about good football discussion. Fans of other teams or even realistic Bills fans are going to see that and think "these guys don't know anything about football- they're just about defending the home team."

Everyone here hates FinHeaven because they say it's a bunch of Fish homers. Well if this board becomes a bunch of Bills homers, the quality of discussion will decline even further.

If you want good football discussion on this board, you need analysis and both sides of the coin- not just a regurgitation of the company line spewing out of One Bills Drive. Chris Brown already has that covered.
I don't mind critical discussion, in fact its necessary. But being critical does not have to mean being a defeatist. I'll be the first to admit I don't know how the season is going to play out, neither does anyone else yet. But some have predetermined that this year is already done before the first game is even played. While that is frustrating , if someone wants to think that way so be it. But don't tell me I have to think the same way. I can be an optimist if I want to be. If the possibility exists for failure it also exists for success. I am hoping for success.

[Michael82]

I don't mind critical discussion, in fact its necessary. But being critical does not have to mean being a defeatist. I'll be the first to admit I don't know how the season is going to play out, neither does anyone else yet. But some have predetermined that this year is already done before the first game is even played. While that is frustrating , if someone wants to think that way so be it. But don't tell me I have to think the same way. I can be an optimist if I want to be. If the possibility exists for failure it also exists for success. I am hoping for success.
Great post, man! :bf1:

[X-Era]

I am REALLY trying to avoid arguments but when I see stuff like this, I have to jump in.

You know, everyone jumps all over the pessimists/realists/negative nancies by saying "the constant negativity is scaring away posters and hurting the board."

Well think about this: if people really want this board to be about good football discussion, they have to do more than just be cheerleaders for the Bills' FO. If people come here and see a bunch of "Youboty has a first round grade", "Lynch will be the top back in the AFCE by the end of the year" 'The DL will be better because of McCargo", "Who cares about the clause in the Walker trade? Let's just wait and see if he comes to camp" "The D won't hurt us because the OL is better and we'll be able to control the ball", etc, they're not going to think this board is about good football discussion. Fans of other teams or even realistic Bills fans are going to see that and think "these guys don't know anything about football- they're just about defending the home team."

Everyone here hates FinHeaven because they say it's a bunch of Fish homers. Well if this board becomes a bunch of Bills homers, the quality of discussion will decline even further.

If you want good football discussion on this board, you need analysis and both sides of the coin- not just a regurgitation of the company line spewing out of One Bills Drive. Chris Brown already has that covered.

I think the key is to state arguements in such a way to allow for other opinions. I have no issue with you, Op. Since I can remember you have always posted high quality posts stating your opinion. Your willing to discuss without getting into pissing matches.

Theres a stark contrast between you and others who only seek to prove themselves right or annoy other posters. Its THAT type of stuff thats stupid. An example is when someone makes a post and a poster who doesnt agree uses it as a chance to bash. Whats wrong with ignoring if you cant make a respectful, and well thought out counter opinion?

Again, you dont need to argue because your not in the wrong, IMO.