Who thinks Hargrove would be a better DE than Kelsay?

[HHURRICANE]

We couldn't afford to let Kelsay walk but I really think Hargrove will win the starting DE job at some point this year.

[John Doe]

Who thinks Hargrove would be a better DE than Kelsay?

Not me.

[Romes]

Not me.

me neither.

[kybillsfan]

hard to say, havent seen enough of hargrove

[SquishDaFish]

I dont think so. Hargrove is good and will be good in rotation at DE and DT.

[G. Host]

:down: I do not think so. I think he is a DE-DT hybred.

[OpIv37]

I think Hargrove and Denney could have equaled Kelsay's production for a boatload less money.

[pintonick96]

I think Hargrove and Denney could have equaled Kelsay's production for a boatload less money.

As big of a naysayer as you are, I totally agree with you here.

[ShadowHawk7]

It would be an absurdity if Kelsay didn't win his job outright, and an embarrassment to the entire Bills management considering the money we gave him.

[HHURRICANE]

I think Hargrove and Denney could have equaled Kelsay's production for a boatload less money.

I've been thinking it but I haven't been saying it.

In fairness, I think Denney is gone after this season (last year of his contract) and Hargrove will be his replacement.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I think Hargrove and Denney could have equaled Kelsay's production for a boatload less money.
You could be right about this. Although for the cash he is getting I hope Kelsay steps it up.

[Ickybaluky]

In fairness, I think Denney is gone after this season (last year of his contract) and Hargrove will be his replacement.

Denney is under contract through 2009.

Hargrove is under contract for 2007 and will be an unrestricted FA after this season.

[HHURRICANE]

You could be right about this. Although for the cash he is getting I hope Kelsay steps it up.

Kelsay needs to have a big year. This we agree on.

I have to say that the Bills, up to this point, have my full confidence on personnel decisions. If you look at who Marv has released, drafted, and signed he's done pretty well. It's not like we're saying that we miss Moulds or Sam Adams. He's also made the obvious cuts.

The Kelsay signing, although not my choice, is okay by me because of what has happened so far. So I'm reserving judgement.

I'm going to be a homer on this and say "In Marv we trust". He's earned it thus far.

[alohabillsfan]

Kelsay and Denney will rotate at LDE and Schobel will remain at RDE with hardgove rotating as required.

[Romes]

Hargrove is a good cheerleader...I'm not sure about DE though. Kelsay is underrated.

[patmoran2006]

Denney is under contract through 2009.

Hargrove is under contract for 2007 and will be an unrestricted FA after this season.
Denney is under contract through 2009 but my understanding is his contract signed last year was so ridiculously backloaded Buffalo will have to cut him unless they want to pay a backup DE in excess of over $3 million dollars.

[patmoran2006]

1- I dont think Hargrove will beat out Kelsay. If he did, that would rank Kelsay among the worst 3-4 FA signees (resignees) in the history of this franchise.

2- I do think the Hargrove/Denney combo wouldn't be much of a downgrade over Kelsay, who is very one-dimensional and overated IMO. If Kelsay was a difference maker I could see the big conract but he is NOT. There are so many more better things I think Buffalo could've done with his money.
* CB Rod Hood, who would be the team's top corner instantly.
* WR Drew Bennett or Donte Stallworth- a LEGIT #2 WR for Losman.
* A REAL TE like Daniel Graham.
OR a DE like DeWayne White with far more upside.

Too late now, but I NEVER liked the Kelsay move for a second. I dont think he's much better than Hargrove or especially Denney. IN fact, didn't Denney actually a half sack more than Kelsay last year?

[justasportsfan]

Not me.

[bigbub2352]

Hargrove will be Denney's replacement once he is either cut or contract runs out, Hargrove is a better pass rusher than kelsay but i think kelsay holds up better against the run, he is young at 24 and Schobel is goin on 30 so lets keep him as depth for now and see what he can do, until he quote him a starter, i do like his potential and his drive to play, but there is a reason he was traded and there is a reason he is a backup here, needs some seasoning in my opionion, and he also helps alot as a situational DT, i think on and all he was a good 5th round pick in this years draft lol

[Ickybaluky]

Denney is under contract through 2009 but my understanding is his contract signed last year was so ridiculously backloaded Buffalo will have to cut him unless they want to pay a backup DE in excess of over $3 million dollars.

His base salary goes from $1.9M this year to $2.3M in 2008 and $2.4M in 2009. That doesn't sound "rediculously backloaded". He will take up about 2% of the cap in 2008, hardly qualifying as a cap-buster.

Hargrove, on the other hand, would have to be re-signed. He is due UFA after this season.

That information completely contradicts the statement I was correcting:


In fairness, I think Denney is gone after this season (last year of his contract) and Hargrove will be his replacement.

See?

[THATHURMANATOR]

1- I dont think Hargrove will beat out Kelsay. If he did, that would rank Kelsay among the worst 3-4 FA signees (resignees) in the history of this franchise.

2- I do think the Hargrove/Denney combo wouldn't be much of a downgrade over Kelsay, who is very one-dimensional and overated IMO. If Kelsay was a difference maker I could see the big conract but he is NOT. There are so many more better things I think Buffalo could've done with his money.
* CB Rod Hood, who would be the team's top corner instantly.
* WR Drew Bennett or Donte Stallworth- a LEGIT #2 WR for Losman.
* A REAL TE like Daniel Graham.
OR a DE like DeWayne White with far more upside.

Too late now, but I NEVER liked the Kelsay move for a second. I dont think he's much better than Hargrove or especially Denney. IN fact, didn't Denney actually a half sack more than Kelsay last year?
I can agree with this. Kelsay has never impressed me all that much. He is a decent player but what can we do but hope he has a good year.

[madness]

There's no way Hargrove/Denney is better then Kelsay. First off, it's a rotation system so it would actually be comparing Hargrove/Denney to Kelsay/Denney.

So some of you are basically saying Hargrove, a RFA who didn't get a single offer, was on the verge of being released the year before and had .5 sacks, is better the Kelsay.

Hargrove is also Schobel's backup so losing Kelsay would just create another hole we couldn't afford to have.

[OpIv37]

There's no way Hargrove/Denney is better then Kelsay. First off, it's a rotation system so it would actually be comparing Hargrove/Denney to Kelsay/Denney.

So some of you are basically saying Hargrove, a RFA who didn't get a single offer, was on the verge of being released the year before and had .5 sacks, is better the Kelsay.

Hargrove is also Schobel's backup so losing Kelsay would just create another hole we couldn't afford to have.

Hargrove wasn't with the team for the entire season- whatever happened to players "benefitting from another year in the system"? I seem to hear that a lot around here but somehow it doesn't relate to Hargrove now?

Also, Hargrove was rotating in at DE AND DT depending on the situation. Schobel was on the field a lot more than Denney/Kelsay, so to compare Hargrove's sack totals to Kelsay's isn't taking the full situation into account.

As far as not getting any offers as an RFA, no one was beating down Peerless Price's door before the Bills signed him last year, but I don't see anyone holding that against Peerless.

Kelsay's career stats are actually worse than Denney's, so how can the Bills justify giving such an expensive contract to a rotational guy who can't even equal the stats of the guy he rotates with? Is Hargrove/Denney better than Kelsay/Denney? Tough call, but when you throw in the cost of Kelsay's contract and the fact that Hargrove can finally concentrate on one position, the benefit of having Kelsay isn't anywhere close to being worth the price we paid, especially when you figure the opportunity costs of not being able to bring in a LB, CB, or TE like patmoran mentioned.

[justasportsfan]

Hargrove wasn't with the team for the entire season- whatever happened to players "benefitting from another year in the system"? I seem to hear that a lot around here but somehow it doesn't relate to Hargrove now?

.
I agree ,however it is Kelsay who will benefit from playing in the same system . The coaches seem to think so and so do I. Granted that like you say, the coaches aren't always right , Kelsay played his best football in his 1st year in this system than he ever has playing in a second year in another system.

Facts show he progressed and I won't argue with progress . Whether he's overpaid is another subject.

[Jan Reimers]

I'll let the coaching staff decide, as they are much closer to the situation than I am. I think Kelsay has developed into a good player.

Actually, I like our top 4 DEs, including Hargrove, and think they're a good unit.

[madness]

Hargrove wasn't with the team for the entire season- whatever happened to players "benefitting from another year in the system"? I seem to hear that a lot around here but somehow it doesn't relate to Hargrove now?

Also, Hargrove was rotating in at DE AND DT depending on the situation. Schobel was on the field a lot more than Denney/Kelsay, so to compare Hargrove's sack totals to Kelsay's isn't taking the full situation into account.

As far as not getting any offers as an RFA, no one was beating down Peerless Price's door before the Bills signed him last year, but I don't see anyone holding that against Peerless.

Kelsay's career stats are actually worse than Denney's, so how can the Bills justify giving such an expensive contract to a rotational guy who can't even equal the stats of the guy he rotates with? Is Hargrove/Denney better than Kelsay/Denney? Tough call, but when you throw in the cost of Kelsay's contract and the fact that Hargrove can finally concentrate on one position, the benefit of having Kelsay isn't anywhere close to being worth the price we paid, especially when you figure the opportunity costs of not being able to bring in a LB, CB, or TE like patmoran mentioned.



Kelsay's career stats are actually worse than Denney's


Are they really?

Denney 114 tackles and 16.5 sacks in 5 years
Kelsay 100 tackles and 12.5 sacks in 4 years

Everything we've been saying about this team you've shot down but now you use it as an excuse to defend Hargrove. That's pretty funny.

Nobody's holding anything against Peerless? I think there is a thread discussing that as we speak. Besides, you're comparing a 30 year old WR to 23 year old DE. Hargrove was excellent pickup but no way should he be starting. If it were up some on the board, Hargrove would be starting and Peerless would have been released as soon as he was signed. So much for earning your keep.

I think Hargrove has the potential to be a very good player but he is nowhere near Kelsay's level as of now. If it were that simple Hargrove (or Denney for that matter) should and will beat everyone out in camp to become a starter over Kelsay. And before you say some crap like "they won't allow that to happen because of Kelsay's contract", they should both at least outperform Kelsay during the season since this is a rotation system and all.

[OpIv37]

Are they really?

Denney 114 tackles and 16.5 sacks in 5 years
Kelsay 100 tackles and 12.5 sacks in 4 years

Everything we've been saying about this team you've shot down but now you use it as an excuse to defend Hargrove. That's pretty funny.

Nobody's holding anything against Peerless? I think there is a thread discussing that as we speak. Besides, you're comparing a 30 year old WR to 23 year old DE. Hargrove was excellent pickup but no way should he be starting. If it were up some on the board, Hargrove would be starting and Peerless would have been released as soon as he was signed. So much for earning your keep.

I think Hargrove has the potential to be a very good player but he is nowhere near Kelsay's level as of now. If it were that simple Hargrove (or Denney for that matter) should and will beat everyone out in camp to become a starter.

I didn't use it to defend Hargrove- I asked why you applied it to the rest of the team and not Hargrove.

As far as those stats, you didn't do averages for games played- I did it once before and Denney was either higher or extremely close to Kelsay- I can't remember right now. Anyway, the point is that the stats are close enough that it doesn't justify Kelsay's contract at all.

[madness]

I didn't use it to defend Hargrove- I asked why you applied it to the rest of the team and not Hargrove.

As far as those stats, you didn't do averages for games played- I did it once before and Denney was either higher or extremely close to Kelsay- I can't remember right now. Anyway, the point is that the stats are close enough that it doesn't justify Kelsay's contract at all.

I do apply it to Hargrove but the fact is... he is just not a capable starter yet.

We aren't discussing justifying Kelsay's contract. I believe we did that in about 500 other threads started by Pat. The thread topic is 'Who thinks Hargrove would be a better DE than Kelsay?'

[OpIv37]

I do apply it to Hargrove but the fact is... he is just not a capable starter yet.

We aren't discussing justifying Kelsay's contract. I believe we did that in about 500 other threads started by Pat. The thread topic is 'Who thinks Hargrove would be a better DE than Kelsay?'

I don't know if Hargrove is better, but given the price of Kelsay's contract, it's a risk that would have been worth taking, IMO. Not that it matters now.

[Michael82]

Kelsay is our Phil Hansen! I think that he will complement Aaron Schobel nicely this year. :up:

And Hargrove is good, but nowhere near Kelsay. :shakeno:

[justasportsfan]

I do apply it to Hargrove but the fact is... he is just not a capable starter yet.

We aren't discussing justifying Kelsay's contract. I believe we did that in about 500 other threads started by Pat. The thread topic is 'Who thinks Hargrove would be a better DE than Kelsay?'
Hargrove isn't . But he's a better cheerleader. In second year in this system , I bet he'll learn how to cheer harder than bills fans. He was probably in shock as to how loud RWS can be. He'll get better in pping up the fans in his 2nd year.

[Pinkerton Security]

I still just dont see what Kelsay did to deserve such a contract?! His numbers are pretty much the same as Denney's, and to be honest when i watch the games Denney seems to come up big at times when Kelsay does not. Granted, I may simply be enamored bc Denney owned the Phins last year but I just think Kelsay is a decent player who got way too much money, as many peole have already pointed out.

[bflojohn]

I'm NOT defending the contract here, just thinking that this is a question of supply and demand. Chris Kelsay was touted to be one of the "coveted" free agents this year and the Bills preempted anyone elses' bids by signing him before the free agent period began. My thought here is that kelsay might have gotten more in the market environment than what the Bills ponied up. The theory here is that the Bills knew the price of business for a starting LDE and paid accordingly, regardless of the fan bases comments on the matter. The other side of this equation is the assumption that Dwayne White or any other free agent would have signed with Buffalo... pure speculation! As a matter of fact, White wanted to be reunited with Marinelli in Detroit, if I'm not mistaken. So essentially, counting on another free agent wasn't a good decision for Buffalo to contemplate, IMO.

[ShadowHawk7]

1- I dont think Hargrove will beat out Kelsay. If he did, that would rank Kelsay among the worst 3-4 FA signees (resignees) in the history of this franchise.

2- I do think the Hargrove/Denney combo wouldn't be much of a downgrade over Kelsay, who is very one-dimensional and overated IMO. If Kelsay was a difference maker I could see the big conract but he is NOT. There are so many more better things I think Buffalo could've done with his money.
* CB Rod Hood, who would be the team's top corner instantly.
* WR Drew Bennett or Donte Stallworth- a LEGIT #2 WR for Losman.
* A REAL TE like Daniel Graham.
OR a DE like DeWayne White with far more upside.

Too late now, but I NEVER liked the Kelsay move for a second. I dont think he's much better than Hargrove or especially Denney. IN fact, didn't Denney actually a half sack more than Kelsay last year?
Indeed, I agree with Pat. After resigning both Hargrove and Denney, I believe that would have made Kelsay expendable. Stallworth would have been a hell of a signing and really would have soothed any questions about our offense.

[HHURRICANE]

I have to apologize. I thought Denney was only signed through the end of this year? Is it possible that he is a UFA at th end of this year? I'm usually up to speed on things like this.

[patmoran2006]

His base salary goes from $1.9M this year to $2.3M in 2008 and $2.4M in 2009. That doesn't sound "rediculously backloaded". He will take up about 2% of the cap in 2008, hardly qualifying as a cap-buster.

Hargrove, on the other hand, would have to be re-signed. He is due UFA after this season.

That information completely contradicts the statement I was correcting:



See?
http://www.billszone.com/mtlog/archives/2007/01/29/billszones_2007_buffalo_bills_salary_cap_page.php
according to our resident capologist, Clump.

Denney is going to count $3.2 million against the cap this year. That's F'n ABSURD for a backup one-dimensional DE.

As a matter of fact, asssuming the count is pretty accurate; Between Schobel (5.06), Kelsay (6.0) and Denney (3.2) they are counting $14.26 million against the cap for a trio of De's that are God Awful at stopping the run.

Management like that is the difference between teams like Buffalo and teams like NE, Indy, Denver etc.

[HHURRICANE]

http://www.billszone.com/mtlog/archives/2007/01/29/billszones_2007_buffalo_bills_salary_cap_page.php
according to our resident capologist, Clump.

Denney is going to count $3.2 million against the cap this year. That's F'n ABSURD for a backup one-dimensional DE.

As a matter of fact, asssuming the count is pretty accurate; Between Schobel (5.06), Kelsay (6.0) and Denney (3.2) they are counting $14.26 million against the cap for a trio of De's that are God Awful at stopping the run.


Ouch.

[Ickybaluky]

http://www.billszone.com/mtlog/archives/2007/01/29/billszones_2007_buffalo_bills_salary_cap_page.php
according to our resident capologist, Clump.

Denney is going to count $3.2 million against the cap this year. That's F'n ABSURD for a backup one-dimensional DE.

That is only 2.85% of their cap limit for this year. Considering he plays a decent-sized role, that hardly seems out of line, IMO. He may not start, but he plays quite a bit and contributed 54 tackles and 6 sacks last year. That isn't terrible. He isn't being paid starter money.

[patmoran2006]

That is only 2.85% of their cap limit for this year. Considering he plays a decent-sized role, that hardly seems out of line, IMO. He may not start, but he plays quite a bit and contributed 54 tackles and 6 sacks last year. That isn't terrible. He isn't being paid starter money.
Agreed.

Thats why he should be kept and starting, not much of a "downgrade" from Kelsay who got $24 million over 4 years for very little more production.

And that money could've spent elsewhere.

My problem isnt with Denney, its with Kelsay. I still think $3.2 million for backup DE is too much money though.