Langston Walker remarks

[patmoran2006]

Granted- THis is from a Raiders fans message board.

And to see how ****ty hometown fans talk about players after they leave their teams, look no farther than here. Christ, if you went solely on this board, Clements and especially Fletch are the two most overated players in the NFL.

But out of curiosity, I registered on a Raiders fan board- identified myself as a Bills fans and asked about Langston Walker. Most of the replies weren't too promising.
http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/105359-missing-langston-walker.html#post2047795

While fan opinions don't seal the deal on anybody, I never been a fan of this signing. $25 million to a guy who started ONE year out of 5, allowed nearly 11 sacks and was regarded in the Oakland press as a weak-link on a horribly weak OL.

Combine that with the likelyhood of Preston or Whittle at RG, and I dont know what drugs most Bills fans are taking to just assume our entire OL is "improved" because we got Dockery..Yes, the left side is absolutely better... But you'd be a fool to not be worried about the right side.

Anyways. Those responses are pretty damn degrading to Walker's abilities, unless we need a clutch FG block.

PS- I know I know.. Marv knows more than me, and you, and every fan.. Thanks for the insight.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

I am never one to judge a guy who was on one of the worst O-lines in the business last year. I especially won't take to much to heart from Raider fan. I will hold judgement to see how he works with this unit.

[patmoran2006]

I dont take much to hear from ANY fan of any team.

If Wash or SF come to this board about Fletch or Nate, they'll think they suck.

I just am baffled on how our OL is so much better, when we have a huge fat question mark and RT and god only knows whos playing RG.

Walker just became most important Bill #3 on this team.
Behind only Losman and McCargo.

[SquishDaFish]

There is a reason why some people have jobs in front offices of teams in NFL. And we are here on a message board. Lets see the man play for us on a better Oline then Oaklands and see how he does.

[mayotm]

"Fan opinions don't seal the deal on anybody". That's the understatement of the century. Plus, how many casual fans really watch the offensive line closely? Most fans' opinions on an offensive lineman are solely based on what they hear or read. The Bills "cheap" front office gave this guy quite a bit of money. They must've seen something in him. Does ths mean Langston was a good signing? No. Does it mean he was a bad signing? No. As Bills fans, lets hope Langston is worth the money. Lets also let him play a down or two in a Bills uniform before we decide he was a terrible signing.

[SquishDaFish]

And no Bills fan in their right mind said Clements or Fletcher sucked for us. I think everyone pretty much have been saying Clements isnt worth the money he got period. And most Bills fans admitted we will miss Fletchs leadership or miss him period.

[SquishDaFish]

Awesome posting may.

[OpIv37]

There is a reason why some people have jobs in front offices of teams in NFL.

This is really a poor argument. Just because someone is in a certain position doesn't automatically make them competent. Look at what Matt Millen does in Detroit or what Tom Donahoe did here.

Signing Walker to a huge contract may or may not have been the right move, but the simple fact that an NFL personnel professional made the move does NOT automatically vindicate it.

[SquishDaFish]

But they must of seen something in him with their knowledge of the game ill trust them. At least give him time to play for us and see what he can do.

[mayotm]

This is really a poor argument. Just because someone is in a certain position doesn't automatically make them competent. Look at what Matt Millen does in Detroit or what Tom Donahoe did here.

Signing Walker to a huge contract may or may not have been the right move, but the simple fact that an NFL personnel professional made the move does NOT automatically vindicate it.Obviously, NFL personnel professionals make mistakes and poor desicions. Still, they are more qualified than us fans. Yes, even Matt Millen and Tom Donahoe are more qualified.

[patmoran2006]

This is the quote that scares me the most....

<TABLE class=tborder id=post2047833 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><TABLE cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2>http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/images/avatars/2005/jasper%20avatar.jpg (http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/members/oakraider.html)</TD><TD noWrap>oakraider (http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/members/oakraider.html) http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_2047833", true); </SCRIPT>
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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- / user info --></TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_2047833><!-- message, attachments, sig --><!-- message -->Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by patmoran2006 http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/105359-missing-langston-walker-post2047831.html)
Walker is slotted as the starting RT for the Bills.

I argue with Bills fans all the time on our message board.

A lot of people in Bflo like him.. I cant stand him.

But I figure unbiased Raiders fans who've seen him play will know a lot more than any of us.

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"He is terrible at pass blocking...atrocious footwork, gets absolutely blown away by speed rushers, and plays too up-right and without leverage against bull-rushers. As a run blocker he is ok when he doesn't get called for holding. He was the worst or the 2nd worst lineman after Grove last season."

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[Gunzlingr]

unbiased raiders fans :rofl:

[madness]

If that was really an accurate assessment, he wouldn't even be playing in the NFL let alone be starting. I recall Chris Brown posting McNally or Kugler notes on Walker and they were nothing like that crap.

[BlackMetalNinja]

Yeah, those certainly were some ringing endorsements, but of course they're going to be overly harsh on him too. Still, they didn't even leave much room for the possibility of positives.

[Slim]

This is the quote that scares me the most....

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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- / user info --></TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_2047833><!-- message, attachments, sig --><!-- message -->Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by patmoran2006 http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/105359-missing-langston-walker-post2047831.html)
Walker is slotted as the starting RT for the Bills.

I argue with Bills fans all the time on our message board.

A lot of people in Bflo like him.. I cant stand him.

But I figure unbiased Raiders fans who've seen him play will know a lot more than any of us.

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"He is terrible at pass blocking...atrocious footwork, gets absolutely blown away by speed rushers, and plays too up-right and without leverage against bull-rushers. As a run blocker he is ok when he doesn't get called for holding. He was the worst or the 2nd worst lineman after Grove last season."

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He couldnt be worse than Gallery.

[Meathead]

i will admit some concern over the comments especially when you consider the amount they paid for him but

a) this guy was hand picked by mouse, marv, dick et al after two years of thinking about it so they obviously saw something they felt they could definitely work with. that alone gives me reasonable confidence he will work out

2) very often fans latch onto somebody on a bad team and blame them for everything. weve seen it with lindell, rueben, fina, jp, even jim kelly when he struggled early here. its especially easy when somebody leaves, maybe thats the case here

iii) my understanding (by memory anyway) is that his contract is heavy on the later years so the hit isnt as big as it looks up front. with his versatility of being able to play both g and t that adds value to the team as well, assuming he sticks

[ublinkwescore]

Bottom line is most raiders fans can give better advice as to what cheap wine or malt liquor gives you the mildest case of rot-gut than input on football and football players.

[gil]

im not going to blast Walker yet, because that entire team was awful and when you have NO RUNNING game, DE's can just pin their ears back.

Its real hard for me to judge a player based on what he did for the raiders

[Mad Bomber]

I wasn't happy with this deal when I first saw it, especially when you consider the $$$$ involved.

I'm hoping that we saw a diamond in the rough, and that McNally can do something with him. My concern is that he seems to play too upright and be a waist-bender rather than a knee-bender...tough to break those tendencies.

Can he move to guard?:idunno:

[HAMMER]

Granted- THis is from a Raiders fans message board.

And to see how ****ty hometown fans talk about players after they leave their teams, look no farther than here. Christ, if you went solely on this board, Clements and especially Fletch are the two most overated players in the NFL.

But out of curiosity, I registered on a Raiders fan board- identified myself as a Bills fans and asked about Langston Walker. Most of the replies weren't too promising.
http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/105359-missing-langston-walker.html#post2047795

While fan opinions don't seal the deal on anybody, I never been a fan of this signing. $25 million to a guy who started ONE year out of 5, allowed nearly 11 sacks and was regarded in the Oakland press as a weak-link on a horribly weak OL.

Combine that with the likelyhood of Preston or Whittle at RG, and I dont know what drugs most Bills fans are taking to just assume our entire OL is "improved" because we got Dockery..Yes, the left side is absolutely better... But you'd be a fool to not be worried about the right side.

Anyways. Those responses are pretty damn degrading to Walker's abilities, unless we need a clutch FG block.

PS- I know I know.. Marv knows more than me, and you, and every fan.. Thanks for the insight.

This post#& is a big douche as usual.

[Philagape]

I have no reason right now to have any faith in Walker. Just because Marv got him means nothing. Marv doesn't get my benefit of the doubt, nor does anyone else. Walker has to earn any kind words.

[Wys Guy]

There is a reason why some people have jobs in front offices of teams in NFL. And we are here on a message board. Lets see the man play for us on a better Oline then Oaklands and see how he does.
I must say, these types of threads are infinitely entertaining and amusing. The denial is incredible.

Does it not bother anyone that most of you either did or would have said the same types of things about the Donahoe administration.

It always seems to take a two-by-four to the head to come to realizations for some odd reason.

I will say this, that's the first I'd polled of any Raiders' thread, yet I came to the exact same conclusions due to some solid due diligence from league and scouting sources. They agree, amazingly.

This is what makes predicting these things so incredibly easy and why many people here and elsewhere are swearing up a storm at those that continue to bring the chaos yet seemingly surprised by those same developments.

It is a great conundrum to be sure.

[Wys Guy]

I have no reason right now to have any faith in Walker. Just because Marv got him means nothing. Marv doesn't get my benefit of the doubt, nor does anyone else. Walker has to earn any kind words.
IMO if Walker can merely finish 16 with the support of the fans and media by then I think it will be half a miracle.


But they must of seen something in him with their knowledge of the game ill trust them. At least give him time to play for us and see what he can do.

Let me ask you 05, what do you think he can and will do? You know he's been in the league for five seasons and hasn't been able to start. When he did the results were terrible. 10.75 sacks, 3 holds. Would you be happy with that here? I sure hope not. He's 28 this season, so there's no upside to his "youth" as he's smack dab in the middle of his prime.

So what are you expecting?

ESPN rates him a low-end starter. I rate him as a depth player only, low-end starter tops. After listing some characteristics that revolve primarily around his size, not his performance, they use the following words and phrases:

...very inconsistent.
...takes some plays off and looks bad or disinterested.
...catches defenders too often, instead of striking.
... sometimes overextends instead of moving his feet.
...slow to recognize blitzes and stunts.
...competitiveness and toughness are concerns.

So I'm not sure why so much support exists for the organization that brough him on at top dollar considering.



I wasn't happy with this deal when I first saw it, especially when you consider the $$$$ involved.

I'm hoping that we saw a diamond in the rough, and that McNally can do something with him. My concern is that he seems to play too upright and be a waist-bender rather than a knee-bender...tough to break those tendencies.

Can he move to guard?:idunno:

Your concerns are founded MB. As to McNally, the jig is up on him. He's failed miserably in providing even an average OL given the miracle worker that everyone said he was. Frankly I can't believe that he's still with the team.

The bottom line is that there is more than enough history on Walker to pencil him in as exactly what he is, namely a 'tweener low-end starter/depth player. If he ends up at G and isn't superlative there, then it's a gross example of yet another failure by a FO easily on track to getting the boot following the '08 season. Non-superlative Gs just don't get that kind of money. JMO

[gil]

This is what makes predicting these things so incredibly easy and why many people here and elsewhere are swearing up a storm at those that continue to bring the chaos yet seemingly surprised by those same developments.

It is a great conundrum to be sure.

predicting how free agents are going to turn out for their teams is incredibly easy?

[Wys Guy]

predicting how free agents are going to turn out for their teams is incredibly easy?

When there's five seasons of detailed performance history on a player, and it's consistent moreover? Hell yes.

Let me ask you, why are you expecting something different than what he's done for five seasons for a player smack in the middle of his prime?

What, b/c we're the Bills? Or b/c we're blue and not black? Or b/c you don't like Raider fans?

I mean what's the concrete, sensible, defensible reason why you are expecting more than a T that routinely/consistently gives up nearly 1 sack or 1 holding penalty per game on average and generally has not performed well?

[casdhf]

They signed him to block FGs and XPs, not start on the OL.

[gil]

When there's five seasons of detailed performance history on a player, and it's consistent moreover? Hell yes.

Let me ask you, why are you expecting something different than what he's done for five seasons for a player smack in the middle of his prime?

What, b/c we're the Bills? Or b/c we're blue and not black? Or b/c you don't like Raider fans?

I mean what's the concrete, sensible, defensible reason why you are expecting more than a T that routinely gives up nearly 1 sack or 1 holding penalty per game on average and generally has not performed well?

I don't expect anything, I've never seen the guy play - from all accounts, it doesn't sound good - but your post was more general you said "that's what makes these things so incredibly easy to predict" - and it caught my eye because from what I've seen a ton of supposed great signings turn to crap and others surprise - defying the experts.

do I think this signing will defy the experts like you? No, but I find it crazy to say predicting how free agent signings will turn out is "incredibly easy"

[Wys Guy]

I don't expect anything, I've never seen the guy play - from all accounts, it doesn't sound good - but your post was more general you said "that's what makes these things so incredibly easy to predict" - and it caught my eye because from what I've seen a ton of supposed great signings turn to crap and others surprise - defying the experts.

do I think this signing will defy the experts like you? No, but I find it crazy to say predicting how free agent signings will turn out is "incredibly easy"

Well, when you're talking about guys like Tripplett and L., or even D. Walker, then a history exists. Unless there's something really bizarre, like Steve Young originally playing behind the Tampa line before going to SF, you can easily use that player's performance data and trends/patterns as pretty much what will happen.

Now if he were a G and we were placing him between Pace and Olin Kreutz, then that would be one thing. But we are clearly not, in fact quite the opposite. So why anyone is expecting anything other than low-end starting play, tops, has no basis. Call me negative, call me no fan, call me a moron, call me whatever one will, that's both logical and makes sense.

Sure, I suppose in one of every, oh, what, 30, 40 of these instances some player all of a sudden plays up after five or six seasons of slop play, but it's clearly not the norm.

Now if you're talking about Lynch or Puz, or a FA QB that's been sitting behind a Manning or Brady or Favre, perhaps there's good reason to hope for something. But most free agents have a pattern of performance and plenty of data for anyone that's knowledgeable about football to be able to glean some important facts and information indicative as to how they'll play.

But the free agent market is largely determined by two things; the value of players in an average type of scenario, and how desperate teams are to acquire those players. If you've been reading my stuff, and assume you haven't, you'd have noticed if you remembered, that I said three or four seasons ago that one of my deepest concerns is that we, the Bills, would get to a point where we'd have to overpay top talent just to play here.

Well, voila! Here we are. Why? Because the methodologies that the team has applied in the past have failed us miserably and created a very poor, low-end team now looking to get worse before it ever gets better.

While some think we're headed in the right direction, IMO Evans is gone since we won't be able to afford him and haven't done much to extend him while he can be had for much less. Schobel's also got one foot out the door or will at least tend towards being very mediocre over the next couple of seasons. So while he falls off, creating another enormous hole, partially in swing, partially straight up, our hill that we need to climb becomes even steeper.

Meanwhile, we add two or three starters a season. It's a three steps forward, two steps backwards approach.

Make sense?

[gil]

Well, when you're talking about guys like Tripplett and L., or even D. Walker, then a history exists. Unless there's something really bizarre, like Steve Young originally playing behind the Tampa line before going to SF, you can easily use that player's performance data and trends/patterns as pretty much what will happen.

Now if he were a G and we were placing him between Pace and Olin Kreutz, then that would be one thing. But we are clearly not, in fact quite the opposite. So why anyone is expecting anything other than low-end starting play, tops, has no basis. Call me negative, call me no fan, call me a moron, call me whatever one will, that's both logical and makes sense.

Sure, I suppose in one of every, oh, what, 30, 40 of these instances some player all of a sudden plays up after five or six seasons of slop play, but it's clearly not the norm.

Now if you're talking about Lynch or Puz, or a FA QB that's been sitting behind a Manning or Brady or Favre, perhaps there's good reason to hope for something. But most free agents have a pattern of performance and plenty of data for anyone that's knowledgeable about football to be able to glean some important facts and information indicative as to how they'll play.

But the free agent market is largely determined by two things; the value of players in an average type of scenario, and how desperate teams are to acquire those players. If you've been reading my stuff, and assume you haven't, you'd have noticed if you remembered, that I said three or four seasons ago that one of my deepest concerns is that we, the Bills, would get to a point where we'd have to overpay top talent just to play here.

Well, voila! Here we are. Why? Because the methodologies that the team has applied in the past have failed us miserably and created a very poor, low-end team now looking to get worse before it ever gets better.

While some think we're headed in the right direction, IMO Evans is gone since we won't be able to afford him and haven't done much to extend him while he can be had for much less. Schobel's also got one foot out the door or will at least tend towards being very mediocre over the next couple of seasons. So while he falls off, creating another enormous hole, partially in swing, partially straight up, our hill that we need to climb becomes even steeper.

Meanwhile, we add two or three starters a season. It's a three steps forward, two steps backwards approach.

Make sense?

Yup, I see your reasoning.

As it relates to L. Walker, from what I can gather, last year was this guy's first starting all 16 games - in total, he's started 33 - maybe that's a bad sign, but I don't know that it presents a volume of information to judge him - just saying.

I'm also wondering if 12 million guaranteed or whatever he got is really overpaying in this market when marginal players like him are getting rich across the board.

I'm not optimistic about him, but I'm not ready to declare this signing as emblematic of the entire Bills philosophy and as an indictment upon our future

I also don't agree with your conclusions that Evans and Schobel are basically already gone, but I'm a bit more optimistic.

Anyway, great post, I hope you're wrong, but good stuff nonetheless.

[Tatonka]

well i know raiders fans are full of **** because their excited about their oline this year.. and it still has gallery, grove, and 2 more balls of **** on it..

[FlyingDutchman]

I just hope hes not another Benny Anderson. Lets give him a chance with Mcnally though. And for those who think we overpaid, im sure we did. That seems to be the theme the last few years. But you gotta make sure you lock up the guys available at those need positions no matter what it takes. You cant tell me Clements is the best CB in the league and deserves that kind of money. I have trouble puting him in the top 10 of corners. We gotta give Walker a shot first though with a clean slate and form our own opinions.

[SquishDaFish]

How can you seriously say hes going to suck based on what he did in Oakland?? Maybe the coaching there sucked balls? Maybe the whole line sucked? Who knows who cares. Lets see what he can do with our philosophy and our coaching and our line. Until then I reserve my judgment.

[!Papacrunk!]

I am never one to judge a guy who was on one of the worst O-lines in the business last year. I especially won't take to much to heart from Raider fan. I will hold judgement to see how he works with this unit.

This reminds me of something I've read from other posters, somewhat

Some ask if Dockery is that good or was it the really great people around him make him look better? The usual answer is that Dockery is good soley on his achievement (my interpretation of what I've read on this site)

But if a guy comes from a bad line, it's not his fault, but the people around him.

Not trying to argue or put words in anyone's mouth, just bored and throwing that out there.

[Jan Reimers]

Why don't we see how the guy actually plays, instead of crapping on him, Marv, the FO and everyone else?

For chrissakes, if anyone puts any stock in the opinions of a bunch of Raiders' fans, I wish you a nice life.

Just win, baby.

[Saratoga Slim]

I dont take much to hear from ANY fan of any team.

If Wash or SF come to this board about Fletch or Nate, they'll think they suck.

I just am baffled on how our OL is so much better, when we have a huge fat question mark and RT and god only knows whos playing RG.

Walker just became most important Bill #3 on this team.
Behind only Losman and McCargo.

I agree. the right side is a big question mark. doesn't mean it can't be real good, but at this point, whoever our RG is and Walker have some proving to do.

[Goobylal]

Here's a good article on what Walker (and Dockery) will bring to the Bills.

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/story/2007/6/5/125026/9861

Basically Walker (and Dockery) will be a huge upgrade to the running game. As for having problems with speed rushers, what RT doesn't? And in any case, there will usually be a TE lining-up next to him to help out if need be.

Oh and another thing, the Raiders' OC last year, Tom Walsh, was running a B&B and hadn't coached in the NFL since 1994. In addition, they had co-OL coaches in Jackie Slater (his first year in the NFL as a coach) and Irv Eatman who had previously been an assistant OL coach for 4 different teams. Gee, a real shocker the Raiders sucked so bad on offense, eh?

[TigerJ]

I never watched Walker play. I'm aware that he is "credited" with giving up something like 10 or 11 sacks last season, the most of any Raiders lineman on a horrible offensive line. If I'm going to jump to the conclusion that the Bills did a horrible free agent signing, I certainly have the ammunition to back that conclusion up. I assume that Jim McNally had some input into this signing, and that others on the Bills pro scouting staff took a look at him and said something to the effect that he has some natural talent and ability, and with the right coaching we can fix the things his doing wrong. Yes, lots of coaching staffs think they can fix people and turn a failure into a success, but the Bills are making a @5 million dollar bet that they can do it. That must mean they're pretty confident. Since I can't do anything about it, I'm just going to wait and see what happens. I'm not going to forget the data that's been available. I'll just file it away in the old brain, and if Langston Walker acts more like a turnstile than a RT, I be after Marv Levy like everyone else. I just figure why fret about it now.

BTW, the skinny on Walker is that he does have excellent run blocking skills. That's good for something.

[mikemac2001]

They all seemed to have one liners like "Justa" but they werent as clever and just kinda lame...hard to say but preseason is the first look to see how good/bad of a deal it was

[jmb1099]

There is no question that he's a question mark, there's never been a question he's a question mark. If Losman's blind side is better protected this year than last we have improved our oline.

I've never seen walker play, but considering the poor play of the entire Raiders oline I'm guessing coaching had at least a part to play in it.

[YardRat]

Granted- THis is from a Raiders fans message board.

And to see how ****ty hometown fans talk about players after they leave their teams, look no farther than here. Christ, if you went solely on this board, Clements and especially Fletch are the two most overated players in the NFL.

But out of curiosity, I registered on a Raiders fan board- identified myself as a Bills fans and asked about Langston Walker. Most of the replies weren't too promising.
http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/105359-missing-langston-walker.html#post2047795

While fan opinions don't seal the deal on anybody, I never been a fan of this signing. $25 million to a guy who started ONE year out of 5, allowed nearly 11 sacks and was regarded in the Oakland press as a weak-link on a horribly weak OL.

Combine that with the likelyhood of Preston or Whittle at RG, and I dont know what drugs most Bills fans are taking to just assume our entire OL is "improved" because we got Dockery..Yes, the left side is absolutely better... But you'd be a fool to not be worried about the right side.

Anyways. Those responses are pretty damn degrading to Walker's abilities, unless we need a clutch FG block.

PS- I know I know.. Marv knows more than me, and you, and every fan.. Thanks for the insight.

I've got a question...

How come comments from a Raiders message board that state Walker Sucks have validity, but comments from a Bill's message board that Clements is over-rated don't?

[Wys Guy]

Yup, I see your reasoning.

As it relates to L. Walker, from what I can gather, last year was this guy's first starting all 16 games - in total, he's started 33 - maybe that's a bad sign, but I don't know that it presents a volume of information to judge him - just saying.

I'm also wondering if 12 million guaranteed or whatever he got is really overpaying in this market when marginal players like him are getting rich across the board.

I'm not optimistic about him, but I'm not ready to declare this signing as emblematic of the entire Bills philosophy and as an indictment upon our future

I also don't agree with your conclusions that Evans and Schobel are basically already gone, but I'm a bit more optimistic.

Anyway, great post, I hope you're wrong, but good stuff nonetheless.

Thanks 23!

My rationale for Evans being gone is that if we couldn't afford Clements, how are we going to afford Evans? I have an article coming out Monday essentially saying to expect Evans to break one or more team records and to quite possibly see him lead the league in one or more categories this season. If that happens, he won't command a 6-year $50M contract. He'll have proven among the league's elite and should be compensated as such. Yet, we have already more or less stated that we can't afford any of the league's elite skill position players in the whole thing with Clements. It came "straight from the horses mouth." That's my rationale there.

As to Schobel, read my pieces, but in short, he's 30 this season. His sole asset is speed and he has one move, an around the end move. Speed is the first thing to go in players and any athlete at any level knows as much. He will begin losing speed now. My suspicion is that he lost weight already fearing that he is close to losing some and prepping for play in his 30s. He doesn't have size/muscle so his game is only speed. So that's my rationale there. Schobel will provide impact play for only another season or two. After that, he likely hits average pretty quickly.

This is also why Reggie White was better into his 30s compared with Bruce Smith. Smith was more diminutive and his game was predicated far more on speed, although a lot more on muscle than Schobel's game is. Yet, Bruce fell off more precipitously than White did who did have size/muscle as an asset in addition to speed. Anyone having watched Bruce in his last seasons here much less in Washington knows that he was more Kelsay like in his latter years, sacking only low-end QBs on poor Os in favorable circumstances. He was all but useless in Washington, I know, I watched him here regularly.

As to Walker, yes, he's only started 33 games. But if you look at his season stats, even as a backup, his sacks allowed and holding penalties were very consistent. I've already outlined this in detail in at least one piece. Nevertheless, here's a summary.

In 16 starts last season he was tagged for 10.75 sacks and had 3 holding penalties accepted. (don't know how many declined)

In 17 starts otherwise, as a backup, he allowed 8.75 sacks and 3 holdings. In backup he probably had easier duty coming in in games that his team may have already been leading it too. Who knows, but the assumption is at least partially logical.

So there is massive consistency there, and no matter how it is sliced, either tallies over the course of a season will not lead to solid play at that position.

Throw in 5 false starts last year as a starter and it's just not good. So yeah, while some may say "let's give McNally a chance," or "Levy knows more than everyone else in the universe," IMO this is what makes Levy a bad GM. Overpaying a lot of mediocre talent. Of coures IMO we have no choice. I was ranting four seasons ago that we'd be right where we are now if we didn't alter course. Yet everyone, and I do mean just about everyone, more so than today supporting Levy, supported Donadope in the same ways.

Fans facilitate poor management, they do, when the acquiesce to poor strategies. Losman-to-Evans won't carry this team anymore than Warner or Leinart to Fitz and Boldin carried the Cards with a comparable OL and worse D such as we'll have this season.

Good exchanging with you. Good football talk.

As to the rest of this thread, it's a great example of hoping for something that isn't going to happen. I got an e-mail yesterday asking me if there was anything that I liked about our management. I said no, there wasn't. That we had some good players, (Evans, Peters, Schobel), but that IMO we didn't have one decent top level coach or good GM or front office person on the team. I stand by that and predict that at the end of this season and for sure next season, most fans will be ready to toss Levy, Jauron, Fairchild, Modrak, Guy, and a few others right out the door on their ear.

We'll see. No sense in arguing that now, but there is plenty of information, or lack of it, to make such predictions relatively easy. Meanwhile, if Youboty and McCargo fall flat this year, which is looking more and more likely as we're down to only less than three months prior to the season starting, then it will not be too early to criticize them.

I'll leave you with one more prediction. There's been some talk in the media lately about Everett and his "potential." What potential? Has he ever been a big factor in the passing game in the pros or in college? No. So why the hopes?

He had one catch last season for one yard and started a few games sprinkled among 16 that he played in. So many will say "yeah, but at Miami..."

OK, at Miami he caught 9 passes for 90 yards and 3 TDs in his junior season, and 23 catches for 310 yards and 0 TDs in his last season there. This is what our hopes are pinned on? My hopes for him are slim-to-nil, especially given what we've already seen. Throw in Schouman's being drafted, Cieslak's better play, and Royal's big salary/contract, relatively speaking, and I'm just not seeing it.

Anyhoo... :)



I just hope hes not another Benny Anderson. Lets give him a chance with Mcnally though. And for those who think we overpaid, im sure we did. That seems to be the theme the last few years. But you gotta make sure you lock up the guys available at those need positions no matter what it takes. You cant tell me Clements is the best CB in the league and deserves that kind of money. I have trouble puting him in the top 10 of corners. We gotta give Walker a shot first though with a clean slate and form our own opinions.
Or Ross Tucker, Lawrence Smith, Mike Gandy, Chris Villarreal, Tutan Reyes, etc.

You can "give Walker a clean slate" all you want. It doesn't alter the facts. At 28 Walker's not going to improve any. He just won't.

Anyone thinking that McNally is a good coach is astonishing. He's perenially had one of the worst lines in the league here in Buffalo. If he were half as good as we were led to believe then that clearly wouldn't have been the case. So again, he's in the same category as Walker IMO.

[Wys Guy]

I've got a question...

How come comments from a Raiders message board that state Walker Sucks have validity, but comments from a Bill's message board that Clements is over-rated don't?
And the subset of people here that constantly twist and contort everything that occurs to favor the team in terms of "benefits of the doubt," past performances, etc. have credibility how now?

Walker's stats speak for themselves. You aren't going to be satisfied with a RT that allows a hold and/or sack at the rate of 12 (combined) per season. So why are you expecting anything different than what Walker has consistently provided for five seasons as either a starter or backup?

Many hold the viewpoint that Clements got far more moola than he was worth, not just a few people. Remember, for four and half seasons Clements was not that good, or not "as good as all that." For the last half of last season he was. So which CB shows up for the Niners?

[Earthquake Enyart]

Is 11 sacks given up in 16 games really all that bad, especially at tackle? That's less than one a game. 3 holds in a whole season doesn't bug me either. Hell Our All Pro Ruben Brown used to do all that at guard, and jump offsides once a game to boot.

I agree with you about McNally. If he were from Timbuktu instead of WNY, he'd have been run out of town long ago. He's getting the hometown discount.

[Wys Guy]

Is 11 sacks given up in 16 games really all that bad, especially at tackle? That's less than one a game. 3 holds in a whole season doesn't bug me either. Hell Our All Pro Ruben Brown used to do all that at guard, and jump offsides once a game to boot.

I agree with you about McNally. If he were from Timbuktu instead of WNY, he'd have been run out of town long ago. He's getting the hometown discount.

Huh? Pennington allowed 2 last season in 11 starts. For a RT, that consistently allows that, yes, it's a lot. Keep in mind that he does not play well on top of that. Agree that stats are not the end all to be all in indicators, but they are a strong one, particularly for stuff like that.

We'll see this season. But this is why everyone hates my takes, b/c I'll be correct on this at the end of the season, and much like Gandy or Bennie Anderson, everyone will be screaming what a crappy signing, when all I did was to take a quick peek at historical data.

We also had to overpay this year b/c we're between a rock and a hard place. With proper management in the past, including last season, we would not have necessarily been in a position to have to have gotten the best available even though they weren't top notch, at top dollar.

But hey, when you're constantly grasping at straws, you're bound to overpay as a rule.

[seanbillsfan]

Granted- THis is from a Raiders fans message board.

And to see how ****ty hometown fans talk about players after they leave their teams, look no farther than here. Christ, if you went solely on this board, Clements and especially Fletch are the two most overated players in the NFL.

But out of curiosity, I registered on a Raiders fan board- identified myself as a Bills fans and asked about Langston Walker. Most of the replies weren't too promising.
http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/105359-missing-langston-walker.html#post2047795

While fan opinions don't seal the deal on anybody, I never been a fan of this signing. $25 million to a guy who started ONE year out of 5, allowed nearly 11 sacks and was regarded in the Oakland press as a weak-link on a horribly weak OL.

Combine that with the likelyhood of Preston or Whittle at RG, and I dont know what drugs most Bills fans are taking to just assume our entire OL is "improved" because we got Dockery..Yes, the left side is absolutely better... But you'd be a fool to not be worried about the right side.

Anyways. Those responses are pretty damn degrading to Walker's abilities, unless we need a clutch FG block.

PS- I know I know.. Marv knows more than me, and you, and every fan.. Thanks for the insight.
Im just glad that we got a ol in the draft..... oh wait

[patmoran2006]

I agree with you about McNally. If he were from Timbuktu instead of WNY, he'd have been run out of town long ago. He's getting the hometown discount.

First post in a very long time that we are in 100% agreement with.

[patmoran2006]

and BTW.

I DO NOT think it's going to happen.

But if I were the Bills, I'd SERIOUSLY considering moving Walker to right guard and having Pennington start at RT.

Two reasons

1- Walker historically has played MUCH better at guard than tackle.

2- Just can't fathom the thought of a "much improved" OL that features Duke Preston or Jason Whittle starting at RG.

[YardRat]

And the subset of people here that constantly twist and contort everything that occurs to favor the team in terms of "benefits of the doubt," past performances, etc. have credibility how now?

Walker's stats speak for themselves. You aren't going to be satisfied with a RT that allows a hold and/or sack at the rate of 12 (combined) per season. So why are you expecting anything different than what Walker has consistently provided for five seasons as either a starter or backup?

Many hold the viewpoint that Clements got far more moola than he was worth, not just a few people. Remember, for four and half seasons Clements was not that good, or not "as good as all that." For the last half of last season he was. So which CB shows up for the Niners?

That didn't exactly answer the question.

[YardRat]

and BTW.

I DO NOT think it's going to happen.

But if I were the Bills, I'd SERIOUSLY considering moving Walker to right guard and having Pennington start at RT.

Two reasons

1- Walker historically has played MUCH better at guard than tackle.

2- Just can't fathom the thought of a "much improved" OL that features Duke Preston or Jason Whittle starting at RG.

I agree. And have from the start.

[casdhf]

You can "give Walker a clean slate" all you want. It doesn't alter the facts. At 28 Walker's not going to improve any. He just won't.

I don't like Walker all that much. But your statement is not a fact.

[Goobylal]

WRT McNally, again it's not like he was previously given much to work with. And his reputation as a "miracle worker" probably worked against him getting decent talent, until this year. Now he has no excuses. But we'll also see that while he's not JC, he's still a good O-line coach.

Oh and as for the Bills not paying Evans based on the observation that they let Clements walk, WRONG! Clements is HUGELY overrated while Evans is not. They'll pay Evans.

[raphael120]

Being as Oakland is a talent sucking black hole for many talents, I dont remember many players coming from Oakland and playing a lot better than they did IN Oakland. Just seems like the Raider disease stays with them...bad habits are hard to break, perhaps?

[Wys Guy]

I don't like Walker all that much. But your statement is not a fact.
The latter part of that statement was not "the facts." "The facts" are the characteristics of his play to date which are very consistent I might add. The latter is merely an opinion. But if we're going to be honest cas, most players don't really improve all that much in the middle of their primes.

They improve in the pre-prime phase and sometimes in the early part of their prime and then typically level off until late prime, then begin to taper off as they exit their primes.

I'm sure that examples can be found in exception, but that's typically the way it works. Schobel's been pretty steady throughout his prime. I only expect him to remain put for another season or two and then come down some. How much and how fast remains to be seen.

[Wys Guy]

WRT McNally, again it's not like he was previously given much to work with. And his reputation as a "miracle worker" probably worked against him getting decent talent, until this year. Now he has no excuses. But we'll also see that while he's not JC, he's still a good O-line coach.

Oh and as for the Bills not paying Evans based on the observation that they let Clements walk, WRONG! Clements is HUGELY overrated while Evans is not. They'll pay Evans.
Unfortunately for that argument, that's not what the team said. They said that they could not afford him. They did not say he was not worth the money. If they felt that way, then why pay him franchise money last season. So if what you say is true, then they're lying to you. How would that make you feel.

McNally, McSchmally. The only reason he's here is b/c of Wilson's good-ole-boy network. He's afraid to step out of his comfort zone to hire anyone competent. Clearly.

Don't expect a good team until there's a change of ownership.

[Goobylal]

Unfortunately for that argument, that's not what the team said. They said that they could not afford him. They did not say he was not worth the money. If they felt that way, then why pay him franchise money last season. So if what you say is true, then they're lying to you. How would that make you feel.
I'm fine with them lying. Because the alternative was telling the world "There's no ***** way Nate Clements was worth $80M because he's overrated." Evans isn't and the Bills will pay him.

McNally, McSchmally. The only reason he's here is b/c of Wilson's good-ole-boy network. He's afraid to step out of his comfort zone to hire anyone competent. Clearly.
That's a convenient excuse. It still doesn't address the fact that what the Bills have given McNally to work with is chicken scratch. But hey, what about his work with an UDFA in Jason Peters? A burgeoning all-pro has to count for something. And again, we can fully evaluate McNally AFTER this season.

Don't expect a good team until there's a change of ownership.
Hell, I'm not expecting to still see a TEAM in Buffalo after a change of ownership.

[Jaybird]

WE HAVE THE BEST YOUNG LT IN THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!! r left side is serious, and the right side is much better then last year. If we could stop the run we might have something this year!!!!!

[kernowboy]

I don't like Walker for the simple facts

a)All he has done is regress the development of certainly Pennington and maybe Butler who I think was beginning to add some weight
b)He's probably not going to be any better than Pennington
c)The amount we signed him for was ridiculous
d)Even if we move him to guard he then impedes then development of Merz
e)Preston didn't do that badly at RG and was improving

Whittle is a good signing as he adds experience to a young line. Unlike others I am holding my opinion on Dockery and wonder if he might actually fit better at RG

I'd have signed any of these ahead of Walker

Sean Mahan C/G now with the Steelers
Cooper Carlisle OL now at the Raiders
Jake Scott OL resigned with the Colts

or even drafted some like Dan Mozes ahead of Ah You

[GarnOFreak]

okay, after going through the whole thread I have two points to make.

1.) 9 or 10 sacks for the year is bad? Really? In that case we've had a bad line since 2001. (Probably longer, but that's as far back as NFL.com keeps stats). Look at the number of sacks we've given up by year. As a team we average 3 sacks a game over the last six years(Incidentally Bledsoe was the best year in 2004....I have no idea how other than it was the year the offense never saw the field b/c the defense was turnover happy and kept setting up the offense with only 20 yards to go to score and that actually helped that stat).
2001-46
2002-54
2003-50
2004-38
2005-43
2006-47

p.s. Can't say that sacks improved after the bye week, since it was 21 sacks in the first seven weeks and 26 in the next nine. 3 sacks a game, that's how it slices.

2.) Point two is that the main reason we have been overpaying for average guys is... we're not a contender. Who, in their right mind wants to come here and play? The only FAs we're going to attract are middle-level guys who want to cash in on their first contract in Free Agency and have a reasonably good shot at starting(Or the various re-treads from other teams or retirement and camp bodies from outside the NFL). It makes sense for Marv to build through the draft... because for years the blue chipper Free Agents all talk about getting paid and going to a winning team to grab a SB ring. So us grousing about overpaying for average guys is pointless. The Front Office, no matter who it is, is going to have a hard time convincing Veteran Free Agents (who aren't past their prime looking for one last check) to come play here until we can show improvement as a team BOTH through our coaching system and the draft. Who else could we have signed to improve the RT spot, that would have been about the same amount of money and wanted to play here? Nobody. So stop complaining that "all we got is this guy and we overpaid!" (somebody call the waaaaaambulance! for crisakes) I hope Pennington has a break out year in training camp and IS the RT we need and Langston can go be a better RG for us. I hope Duke can go back to being a Center like he was drafted to be here.

'Nuff said