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View Full Version : Wow, where did Miami become improved on offense?



HHURRICANE
06-20-2007, 11:08 AM
I think it's way too early to bash any team, including the phins, but why is Miami going to be much improved when realistically they are in the midst of rebuilding?

How does the fact that no player on the O-line will be returning to their previous position not impact the play of the offense?

Vernon Carey is moving from RT to LT, LJ Shelton is moving to RT, Hadnof is moving to RG. You are going with a rookie at center in Satele and are threatening to start another rookie at LG. What am I missing here?

Add the fact that you have a new coaching staff, new QB, new skill players, and few players returning, how are you better?

TacklingDummy
06-20-2007, 11:13 AM
Because they got Green.

Doesn't matter. They still will have the 4th best offense in the AFC East. Only thing they have going for them is that they have a aging good defense that should keep them in some games this year.

HHURRICANE
06-20-2007, 11:14 AM
This is not a Miami bashing thread!!!! I read two threads today saying "playoffs" and "good offense" and I want to know how and why.

HAMMER
06-20-2007, 11:16 AM
I can't wait to pound the minnows again this year. It is gonna be ugly for them, billieve me! I don't see them winning more than six games, that's if they're lucky. Miami sucks.

TacklingDummy
06-20-2007, 11:16 AM
This is not a Miami bashing thread!!!! I read two threads today saying "playoffs" and "good offense" and I want to know how and why.

I didn't bash Miami.

No playoff's, no good offense.

No playoff's because their offense is not very good.

DraftBoy
06-20-2007, 11:21 AM
The playoffs thread was what Cam Cameron said, and I think Miami does have a good offense, they got three key peices in place in Brown, Green, and Chambers, if the Oline shapes up and a 2nd receiving threat emerges they will challgenge the Jets for 2nd best in the division.

justasportsfan
06-20-2007, 11:23 AM
I'm not saying they are going to be good but I wouldn't take anyone lightly . See the jets from last year.

justasportsfan
06-20-2007, 11:25 AM
The playoffs thread was what Cam Cameron said, and I think Miami does have a good offense, they got three key peices in place in Brown, Green, and Chambers, if the Oline shapes up and a 2nd receiving threat emerges they will challgenge the Jets for 2nd best in the division.
a lot of if's have to happen just like the if's of the bills were to happen, there would be a 3 way dogfight for 2nd place in the AFCE.

TacklingDummy
06-20-2007, 11:29 AM
The playoffs thread was what Cam Cameron said, and I think Miami does have a good offense, they got three key peices in place in Brown, Green, and Chambers

I think you are giving their offense too muh credit. Ronnie Brown hasn't done anything special in the NFL, Green is old and coming to a new team which doesn't work out very often for QBs, and Chambers has only had 1 out of 6 season with over 1000 yards. And that's the season he got 200+ yards on the Bills in 1 game.

HHURRICANE
06-20-2007, 11:30 AM
Because they got Green.

Doesn't matter. They still will have the 4th best offense in the AFC East. Only thing they have going for them is that they have a aging good defense that should keep them in some games this year.

Yes, it seems like Trent green all of a sudden made them a contender. Trent Green, on a mature team, would be a solid addition. I think sticking him behind that line with Ronnie Brown is going to be a struggle. We watched Drew Bledsoe struggle mightily in the same situation with a better RB in Travis Henry.

Meathead
06-20-2007, 11:30 AM
the two most important pieces of any offense are ol and qb, in that order

the ol is in major transition under a new coaching staff. it will be virtually impossible for them to really gel until at the very earliest the last half of the season. thats a bad sign

green used to be awesome but when he returned after his injury he just wasnt the same guy. he looked slow, out of synch, and often befuddled. its possible he could bounce back but its far from a sure thing. on top of that hes a statue and hes likely going to be running for his life far more often than he ever did behind that star studded line he played for in kc. another bad sign

their two marquee offensive players are defenlly good but you cant run through walls and you cant catch a ball cradled in the stomach of a qb whose face is eating cuban sod

anything can happen but id expect the miami o to be bottom third this year

so rules judge meathead so it shall be

HHURRICANE
06-20-2007, 11:31 AM
I didn't bash Miami.

No playoff's, no good offense.

No playoff's because their offense is not very good.

That wasn't directed towards you!!! Just in general.

HHURRICANE
06-20-2007, 11:44 AM
the two most important pieces of any offense are ol and qb, in that order

the ol is in major transition under a new coaching staff. it will be virtually impossible for them to really gel until at the very earliest the last half of the season. thats a bad sign

green used to be awesome but when he returned after his injury he just wasnt the same guy. he looked slow, out of synch, and often befuddled. its possible he could bounce back but its far from a sure thing. on top of that hes a statue and hes likely going to be running for his life far more often than he ever did behind that star studded line he played for in kc. another bad sign

their two marquee offensive players are defenlly good but you cant run through walls and you cant catch a ball cradled in the stomach of a qb whose face is eating cuban sod

anything can happen but id expect the miami o to be bottom third this year

so rules judge meathead so it shall be

I think Trent Green took one of the most vicious hits that I have ever seen. I'm pretty sure that had an effect on his play so I'm more apt to take a wait and see attitude.

I'm 100% in agreement with you on their o-line. After watching Buffalo miss the playoffs 2 years in a row with the #2 ranked D, I think we all have learned the importance of a solid O-line. We benefitted greatly when we made our changes after the bye with the OL. Miami would have to catch lightening in a bottle if they gel'd half way through the season with 2 rookies.

HAMMER
06-20-2007, 11:45 AM
Green's best days are behind him, especially after a concussion as severe as the one he had. Ronnie Brown has not done enough to scare me yet. For example, when I saw Maroney in a preseason game last year I said, "Oh Sugar, we have to play him twice a year for the next five plus years?". Ronnie Brown doesn't make me feel that way. Miami will be the cellar dwellers again. I really think people are discounting the Bills far too much. While we may struggle against the run, I think this team is going to score a lot and win those close games we lost last year. Pats, Bills, Jets, Phins.

feelthepain
06-20-2007, 11:51 AM
I think it's way too early to bash any team, including the phins, but why is Miami going to be much improved when realistically they are in the midst of rebuilding?

How does the fact that no player on the O-line will be returning to their previous position not impact the play of the offense?

Vernon Carey is moving from RT to LT, LJ Shelton is moving to RT, Hadnof is moving to RG. You are going with a rookie at center in Satele and are threatening to start another rookie at LG. What am I missing here?

Add the fact that you have a new coaching staff, new QB, new skill players, and few players returning, how are you better?

How do you consider the Bills 28th overall Offense with no key injuries, better then Miami's 20th overall offense, with their backup QB who was with the team all of 6 months and had very few snaps with the first team in camp? I mean seriously, you consider the Bills offense better, but Miami gave up less sacks with Oline injuries then a healthy Bills Oline. Miami has a new HC/OC yes, but they also have plenty of experience in the coaching staff with HC experience in Dom Capers.

Cam won't have anything to do with the Defense that will be Doms job so all Cam has to do is what he's been doing for the last few years, coach the offense. You also act as if changing HC is a guarantee a teams will not succeed. I think thats been proven wrong many times over. New HC's and schemes can be very successful in their first year. To be honest I think the reason the Dolphins are better on offense is because the only thing Miami has been missing to succeed on offense has been playcalling. Maimi has been way to conservative over the past 8 years, we have always played things close to the vest and let our Defense win games.

The one year we had Scott Linehan we opened up the offense and we won our last six games. Chris Chambers made the probowl and Miami had some balance. Cam is the same verticle open things up kinda coach. Maimi will stretch the field vertically that will open up the rushing lanes and Miami will have more options. All Miami needs is a top 15 offense to make the playoffs, if we can finish 20th overall with what we had last year there is no reason we can't imporve 5 spots with what we have now.

DraftBoy
06-20-2007, 12:06 PM
I think you guys are underestimating Green and Brown's games. Ronnie Brown started really slow last year but the came on towards the end of the season. The Oline is also not as changed as you make it out to be. Moving players around is one thing, but adding new players is completely different. I have little doubt that Carey will do well at LT (similar to Peters move from RT to LT that was pretty seamless). The rookie OC will need to prove himself, but every other part of that line has shown good ability.

TacklingDummy
06-20-2007, 12:10 PM
How do you consider the Bills 28th overall Offense with no key injuries

4th time I had to say this. The Bills offense was 30th, not 28th.

thecoordinator
06-20-2007, 12:18 PM
You are going with a rookie at center in Satele and are threatening to start another rookie at LG. What am I missing here?

you're right. the only team in the nfl that ever has rookies come in and make their team better is the bills.

your 2nd round pick is gonna make you better at LB but our 2nd round pick isn't gonna make us better on the o line? how does that work?

players aside, though, you wanna know how miami became a better offense? mike mularkey is no longer running it. that's how.

feelthepain
06-20-2007, 12:18 PM
4th time I had to say this. The Bills offense was 30th, not 28th.


:lmao: :goodpost: :fab: :lmao:

feelthepain
06-20-2007, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by HHURRICANE
You are going with a rookie at center in Satele and are threatening to start another rookie at LG. What am I missing here?


Didn't the Jets start a rookie C, LT and have a rookie HC last year with a QB coming off an injury? And how'd they do??

HHURRICANE
06-20-2007, 12:28 PM
you're right. the only team in the nfl that ever has rookies come in and make their team better is the bills.

your 2nd round pick is gonna make you better at LB but our 2nd round pick isn't gonna make us better on the o line? how does that work?

players aside, though, you wanna know how miami became a better offense? mike mularkey is no longer running it. that's how.

Obviously you don't read my posts because you would know that I don't think Poz will be an immediate impact for this team.

On the MM comment you are 100% right and I didn't take that into consideration so you get kudos from me on that one!!

I am definately missing MM as your coordinator.

patmoran2006
06-20-2007, 12:37 PM
you're right. the only team in the nfl that ever has rookies come in and make their team better is the bills.

your 2nd round pick is gonna make you better at LB but our 2nd round pick isn't gonna make us better on the o line? how does that work?

players aside, though, you wanna know how miami became a better offense? mike mularkey is no longer running it. that's how.

Good post, and good points. ESPECIALLY about the 2nd round draft picks.


Having said that, I think Buffalo is better than Miami this year if for no other reason that Miami is basically starting over.

HHURRICANE
06-20-2007, 12:43 PM
Didn't the Jets start a rookie C, LT and have a rookie HC last year with a QB coming off an injury? And how'd they do??

I have seen the Jets comparison at nauseum. The Jets were returing a maturer team and D'Brick was a little better bet than Satele will be.

LJ Shelton and 2 rookies should scare you enough.

mysticsoto
06-20-2007, 12:46 PM
I think you guys are underestimating Green and Brown's games. Ronnie Brown started really slow last year but the came on towards the end of the season. The Oline is also not as changed as you make it out to be. Moving players around is one thing, but adding new players is completely different. I have little doubt that Carey will do well at LT (similar to Peters move from RT to LT that was pretty seamless). The rookie OC will need to prove himself, but every other part of that line has shown good ability.
Personally, I like Green. The jury is still out on Brown. But one thing is clear in my book. For either of them to do anything will mean that the Oline can allow them to - and right now, I just don't see that...

mysticsoto
06-20-2007, 12:48 PM
How do you consider the Bills 28th overall Offense with no key injuries, better then Miami's 20th overall offense, with their backup QB who was with the team all of 6 months and had very few snaps with the first team in camp? I mean seriously, you consider the Bills offense better, but Miami gave up less sacks with Oline injuries then a healthy Bills Oline. Miami has a new HC/OC yes, but they also have plenty of experience in the coaching staff with HC experience in Dom Capers.

Cam won't have anything to do with the Defense that will be Doms job so all Cam has to do is what he's been doing for the last few years, coach the offense. You also act as if changing HC is a guarantee a teams will not succeed. I think thats been proven wrong many times over. New HC's and schemes can be very successful in their first year. To be honest I think the reason the Dolphins are better on offense is because the only thing Miami has been missing to succeed on offense has been playcalling. Maimi has been way to conservative over the past 8 years, we have always played things close to the vest and let our Defense win games.

The one year we had Scott Linehan we opened up the offense and we won our last six games. Chris Chambers made the probowl and Miami had some balance. Cam is the same verticle open things up kinda coach. Maimi will stretch the field vertically that will open up the rushing lanes and Miami will have more options. All Miami needs is a top 15 offense to make the playoffs, if we can finish 20th overall with what we had last year there is no reason we can't imporve 5 spots with what we have now.

The problem with stretching the field vertically, is that you need a good Oline to hold while the play develops. Right now, I don't see your Oline being able to do that. With a real Oline, your team will be alot better though...although I guess you could say that about any team...

feelthepain
06-20-2007, 12:51 PM
Good post, and good points. ESPECIALLY about the 2nd round draft picks.


Having said that, I think Buffalo is better than Miami this year if for no other reason that Miami is basically starting over.

We are?

Goobylal
06-20-2007, 12:52 PM
I have no idea how people think the Dols will be better on offense. When you lose your top-2 receivers from the year before, have a re-shuffled O-line that wasn't that good to begin with, add an aging QB whose better days are behind him, and have a new offensive scheme, it's NOT a recipe for instant success.

HHURRICANE
06-20-2007, 12:56 PM
We are?

Yes, you won 6 games last year. You do realize that?

feelthepain
06-20-2007, 12:57 PM
I have seen the Jets comparison at nauseum. The Jets were returing a maturer team and D'Brick was a little better bet than Satele will be.

LJ Shelton and 2 rookies should scare you enough.


1) Miami has a mature Defense, and you use that as an excuse for Miami falling off on Defense, but it's a plus for the Jets....sure!

2)How do you know D'Brick is a little better bet?

3) LJ Shelton played very well for us last year, he will be the RT not LT seems to me you are hoping it's a problem more then anything.

Everything you've posted is pure speculation, no different then your opinion of the Bills offense going into 07.

TacklingDummy
06-20-2007, 12:59 PM
Having said that, I think Buffalo is better than Miami this year if for no other reason that Miami is basically starting over.

I think Miami will have a better year than Buffalo just because Miami will have the better defense.

As of right now both of their offense's are not very good.

HHURRICANE
06-20-2007, 01:00 PM
1)
2)How do you know D'Brick is a little better bet?


Maybe because he was the 4th overall pick? Usually you expect the 4th overall pick to start?

feelthepain
06-20-2007, 01:04 PM
Maybe because he was the 4th overall pick? Usually you expect the 4th overall pick to start?

That's a stupid argument, just let them play before you try to predict what will be.

feelthepain
06-20-2007, 01:06 PM
Yes, you won 6 games last year. You do realize that?

With Joey Harrington and MM.....Yes I do, you do realize Joey is no longer in Miami and MM is the TE coach, don't you?

Dolphanzeke
06-20-2007, 01:21 PM
The Fins spent their first 4 draft picks on Offense with Ginn/Booker/Satele all expected to contribute year 1 and they hired the Offensive coordinator from the team with the #1 Offense in the league despite starting a first year QB and below average recievers and churned out the MVP of the league L.T....Im certainly not going to say its a sure fire bet the O gets better but I think you can agree it COULD get better or obviously if the O- Line takes a huge dump it could get worse..but to act like there is NO reason to be optomistic for the Phins O sounds like wishfull Bills fan thinking to me.

Mitchy moo
06-20-2007, 01:21 PM
With Joey Harrington and MM.....Yes I do, you do realize Joey is no longer in Miami and MM is the TE coach, don't you?

You also had no O-line and are returning an even worse patchwork group this year, with a brand new coaching staff and a new system. Do you expect their talent to improve on the O-line on it's own or because they have no experience under the new system?

feelthepain
06-20-2007, 01:38 PM
You also had no O-line and are returning an even worse patchwork group this year, with a brand new coaching staff and a new system. Do you expect their talent to improve on the O-line on it's own or because they have no experience under the new system?


Ummm and your Oline did what last year? Their performance last year doesn't seem to hinder your enthusiasm this year! As far as experience under the new system, it's similar to what we did in 05 under Scott Linehan, so they have some experience in what Cam wants to do.

HHURRICANE
06-20-2007, 02:04 PM
Ummm and your Oline did what last year? Their performance last year doesn't seem to hinder your enthusiasm this year! As far as experience under the new system, it's similar to what we did in 05 under Scott Linehan, so they have some experience in what Cam wants to do.

Dude, I have gone through the O-line improvements in detail, since our bye, and the improvements that we have made through FA, etc. more than once with you.

You act like it's never been discussed. You know our line is better so deal with it or explain, in detail why it isn't.

Heck, you don't even know who your starting line is yet.

patmoran2006
06-20-2007, 02:08 PM
We are?
Do you not have a new head coach and many new other coaches?

Do you not have a brand new QB?

Do you even know who your starting OL is going to be?

Is your coach not going to implement a new offense to learn?

That's not starting over? You are naive if you think otherwise.

Mr. Pink
06-20-2007, 02:57 PM
Comparing the Jets to the Dolphins is laughable.

The Jets 3 seasons ago were a playoff team that was a KICKER away from advancing in the playoffs. Which is why they drafted Nugent. Then 2 years ago they sucked because they lost their QB. Most teams will suck when they lose their QB. Then last year they were healthy so they were good again. It's not hard to see that coming or happening when you factor everything in.

Miami is a completely different team now than they were even last season, let alone a few seasons ago. So how anyone can compare them is beyond me.

feelthepain
06-20-2007, 03:02 PM
Dude, I have gone through the O-line improvements in detail, since our bye, and the improvements that we have made through FA, etc. more than once with you.

You act like it's never been discussed. You know our line is better so deal with it or explain, in detail why it isn't.

Heck, you don't even know who your starting line is yet.

Dude Miami's Oline also imporved and I don't care how you spin it, you had the 27th best rushing attack and 28th best passing attack. You also only beat one team with a winning record last year, those are a direct result of the Bills Oline and QB play considering they finished 30th overall last year on offense last year that's what they are.

So please tell me why I think the Dolphins Oline that lead the 13th best passing game and 23 best rushing game gave up 7 less sacks behgind Joey Harrington and MM is worse then Buffalos? You're in denial, the Dolphins Oline and the Bills Oline both have to prove themselves, but there is no chance in hell the Bills Oline is better then Miami's.

feelthepain
06-20-2007, 03:11 PM
Comparing the Jets to the Dolphins is laughable.

The Jets 3 seasons ago were a playoff team that was a KICKER away from advancing in the playoffs. Which is why they drafted Nugent. Then 2 years ago they sucked because they lost their QB. Most teams will suck when they lose their QB. Then last year they were healthy so they were good again. It's not hard to see that coming or happening when you factor everything in.

Miami is a completely different team now than they were even last season, let alone a few seasons ago. So how anyone can compare them is beyond me.

4 seasons ago the Dolphins were 10-6, 2 seasons ago were were 9-7. The Only difference in Miami this year and last year is a better OC, more speed on offense and we got rid of players that weren't contributing. BTW when is the last time the Jets had a top 5 defense? The closest they've been was in 03 when they were 7th, but they also had balance with a good offense, something Miami could very well have this year.

justasportsfan
06-20-2007, 03:19 PM
With Joey Harrington and MM.....Yes I do, you do realize Joey is no longer in Miami and MM is the TE coach, don't you?

You forgot .....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Daunte:

This is just one fans opinion, but keep your head up bro. Not everyone agrees with the way the Dolphins handled you and your situation. I for one do not feel much pride in this team with this situation, I think it was classless the way it was handled and I think you deserve better, all players that have the love and respect of their teammates desreve better and you had that with this team.

I hope your next stop is a good one and you return to form. You deserve it because of the hard work and the hart you've shown since this injury. I also want to thank you for wanting to help this team succeed and wanting to be a Dolphin. Even though you came back to soon and that decision probably cost you your future in Miami, I know you did so because you're a competitor and you want to succeed as much as any player on this team, including the pressure to win you faced in you decisions.

I'll root for you wherever you land, I think there are some serious flaws in NFL circles and sometimes the good guy's lose. I also have no problem with you forcing your release, there has to be some sorta of consequence for the treatment you've endored the last few months since the new coaching staff arrived and you aren't the only player to suffer such poor treatment around the league. I sat and watched Cam Cameron state with my own eyes and ears he wouldn't evaluate any player till they were a 100%, he obviously didn't mean you cause he obviously never intented on giving you that chance, even though the conversation at the time was about you.

I still love my team, but I just wanted you to know that not everything that happens with this team is something I'm proud to be a part of or watch.
Just like when players do things wrong or make mistakes and the organization feels the need to seperate themselves and their actions or intentions from a players, I feel the need to do the same with this team at this time. I care more about the players then some individuals within the FO and more specifically the coaching staff at this point in time.

Stay strong Bro and thanks again for the effort, you're a class act.

FTP.

:roflmao:

:limp:
http://finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?t=199590

Bulldog
06-20-2007, 08:44 PM
You forgot .....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Daunte:

This is just one fans opinion, but keep your head up bro. Not everyone agrees with the way the Dolphins handled you and your situation. I for one do not feel much pride in this team with this situation, I think it was classless the way it was handled and I think you deserve better, all players that have the love and respect of their teammates desreve better and you had that with this team.

I hope your next stop is a good one and you return to form. You deserve it because of the hard work and the hart you've shown since this injury. I also want to thank you for wanting to help this team succeed and wanting to be a Dolphin. Even though you came back to soon and that decision probably cost you your future in Miami, I know you did so because you're a competitor and you want to succeed as much as any player on this team, including the pressure to win you faced in you decisions.

I'll root for you wherever you land, I think there are some serious flaws in NFL circles and sometimes the good guy's lose. I also have no problem with you forcing your release, there has to be some sorta of consequence for the treatment you've endored the last few months since the new coaching staff arrived and you aren't the only player to suffer such poor treatment around the league. I sat and watched Cam Cameron state with my own eyes and ears he wouldn't evaluate any player till they were a 100%, he obviously didn't mean you cause he obviously never intented on giving you that chance, even though the conversation at the time was about you.

I still love my team, but I just wanted you to know that not everything that happens with this team is something I'm proud to be a part of or watch.
Just like when players do things wrong or make mistakes and the organization feels the need to seperate themselves and their actions or intentions from a players, I feel the need to do the same with this team at this time. I care more about the players then some individuals within the FO and more specifically the coaching staff at this point in time.

Stay strong Bro and thanks again for the effort, you're a class act.

FTP.

:roflmao:

:limp:
http://finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?t=199590

Now thats funny. I wonder if FTP still snuggles with his Daunte blankie at night.

!Papacrunk!
06-20-2007, 09:01 PM
Just like anyone here, all I can do is speculate, no one here knows the future any more than anyone else. At this point assumptions can be made positive or negative, and I welcome both. I've been wrong my fair share of times, these are just my personal opinion or my OBJECTIVE ASSUMPTIONS:

I wouldn't completely blame Green's performance 100% due to the concussion. Green is an air it out QB, fast paced type of offense. During the time he was gone, Edwards moved the offense to a slower power football relying on the defense more so compared to the past. I really don't think the new change in climate favored Green at all. IMO the style and enviroment really changed and Green wasn't a part of that offensive picture at that point anymore.

As far as the staff, there is still carryover from the last some years, as well as a important reunion with Cameron and Houck. Both can get completely on the same page and possibly reinvent a line like they did the year after the Chargers went 4-12, having success the year after. I trust their opinions a bit more than anyone on here, no offense. One of the great things about the o-line is that the oldest player is 30. Once the line can come together, they can potentially be good for a long time.

Obviously Tony Gonzalez and Antonio Gates didn't come with Cameron and Green. At this point there is a question mark with David Martin, he's flashed some good play, but injuries have prevented him from even being mentioned in any upper echelon of TEs. A good sign is that Cameron's offense favors the TE and Green has worked well with TEs in the past, and from mini camp reports he's already started to develop a positive rapport with Martin. We'll see what happens when they get in the pads.

Just like Gates, Tomlinson didn't make the flight either with Cameron. Be forewarned, it will be hard no to pull the Mularkey card when defending any positive changes to the Miami offense. As much as he liked his trick plays, Mularkey didn't seem to know what to do with Brown. Of any position, I'm really excited to see what kind of output Cameron can get out of Brown. I think the biggest thing Mularkey failed to do was utilize Brown's receiving skills. From what I've been reading it seems like Cameron will correct this. One of my favorite Brown plays (my avatar is from the game) was the catch out of the backfield when Brown hurdled the Bills defender on his way to his huge TD. Don't forget that Brown was also one of the few RBs last year that had an average of 4.4 yards and also was able to get more than 1,000 yards w/o playing a complete season, behind a suspect line, and via the playcalling of Mularkey.

I think the best thing Chambers needs is something he's hardly ever had during his porfessional career: a steady QB and a steady offense. At least he's shown that he's a team player by being able to adapt to any conditions, lol. Another positive I've heard about Cameron is that he's really good at getting the best of his players and put them in conditions that favor them. I've read that Cameron is going to move him around a lot, which seemed to be onbe of the best factors when he had his Pro Bowl year. I'm also curious to see what Hagan will do with a year under his belt. I think Hagan had some growing pains, but my gut is telling me to choose Hagan for the darkhorse player on offense. Hakim should provide speed until Ginn is able to mature into the position. As far as Ginn is concerned, why rush things. Since he was done with his committments to OSU he was able to practive with the team. Even at 90% Ginn was reminding people how fast he is during practice, seems like he's on the road to recovery. I think Cameron is making a good choice in using Ginn for ST and developing Ginn into the offense as Ginn matures. Outside of ST I envision Ginn to be used in special plays on the offense depending on the situation.


Who knows if Miami's offense is going to the #32 rated offense or the #3, but I can't wait to see what happens since Miami now has an offensive minded coach. It may not happen this year, but whenever it does happen it will be fun for this fan.

HHURRICANE
06-20-2007, 09:21 PM
Just like anyone here, all I can do is speculate, no one here knows the future any more than anyone else. At this point assumptions can be made positive or negative, and I welcome both.

It may not happen this year, but whenever it does happen it will be fun for this fan.

I believe that Miami is exactly where Buffalo was a year ago. You guys are rebuilding and fixing the mistakes leftover from the previous regime. I think it starts with the OL and you folks will have some growing pains there.

Goobylal
06-20-2007, 09:41 PM
Who knows if Miami's offense is going to the #32 rated offense or the #3, but I can't wait to see what happens since Miami now has an offensive minded coach. It may not happen this year, but whenever it does happen it will be fun for this fan.
I can accept that Miami's offense may be good in the future, but this year should be a wash.

FINintheMOON
06-20-2007, 10:31 PM
I can accept that Miami's offense may be good in the future, but this year should be a wash.

I disagree with this... I think Miami will have a very good offense this season.

I have read all the posts in this thread and there seems that most believe that the OL will be the downfall of Miami this year. And this is based on the moves and the rookies brought in.

I have seen 1 post that even mentioned Houck. This will be his second year in Miami. The moves on the OL is his work. We all know what he did in San Diego and how he turned one of the worst OLs in the league to a very dominating line in 2 years... And it was then as it is now... He made changes in positions, rotating players from one to the other... He added a couple of rookies in the mix as well.

I seriously think that Miami is going to be in the hunt this year...

!Papacrunk!
06-20-2007, 10:34 PM
I disagree with this... I think Miami will have a very good offense this season.

I have read all the posts in this thread and there seems that most believe that the OL will be the downfall of Miami this year. And this is based on the moves and the rookies brought in.

I have seen 1 post that even mentioned Houck. This will be his second year in Miami. The moves on the OL is his work. We all know what he did in San Diego and how he turned one of the worst OLs in the league to a very dominating line in 2 years... And it was then as it is now... He made changes in positions, rotating players from one to the other... He added a couple of rookies in the mix as well.

I seriously think that Miami is going to be in the hunt this year...

I believe it's his 3rd year. Saban signed him during Saban's 1st year.

It's great to be enthusiastic, but in June it's too early to say a team will suck or be in any kind of hunt. Wayyyyy tooo early.

Goobylal
06-20-2007, 10:54 PM
It's his 3rd year. And why didn't Houck, a guy who the Dolphins paid a ton of money to get him from SD thus they valued his input, change the lineup LAST year by putting Carey at LT, Shelton at RT, and Hadnot at RG, after the bye like the Bills did?

To me the moves on the O-line are being made because they realize that Carey is their best O-lineman and want to put him at the most important position. But going from RT to LT is not an easy feat. And Shelton proved he's a scrub at any OT position, while with the Cardinals. Hadnot could be a good RG but he seemed to play well at center so why move him? And rookies take time to adjust to their roles.

Again Green won't be playing behind the Chefs' pre-2006 O-line, an O-line which featured several Pro Bowlers. He also won't be handing-off to Priest Holmes or Larry Johnson, or throwing to Tony Gonzalez. And Chambers is their only real threat at WR (the jury is still out on Ginn), but he's been largely inconsistent. And they'll be playing in a new scheme.

As I said, I could see Miami's ofense being good in a year or so. But then next year, will Green still be starting and/or will Beck be ready to take over?

justasportsfan
06-21-2007, 09:39 AM
Now thats funny. I wonder if FTP still snuggles with his Daunte blankie at night.
that's the gayest thing I've ever read on a football board.

"crying? there's no crying in baseball , but there sure is writing love letters to your mancrush in football as far as the dolphins are concerned"

justasportsfan
06-21-2007, 09:47 AM
I disagree with this... I think Miami will have a very good offense this season.

I have read all the posts in this thread and there seems that most believe that the OL will be the downfall of Miami this year. And this is based on the moves and the rookies brought in.

I have seen 1 post that even mentioned Houck. This will be his second year in Miami. The moves on the OL is his work. We all know what he did in San Diego and how he turned one of the worst OLs in the league to a very dominating line in 2 years... And it was then as it is now... He made changes in positions, rotating players from one to the other... He added a couple of rookies in the mix as well.

I seriously think that Miami is going to be in the hunt this year...JUst like McNAlly, Houck hasn't been able to do squat in MIami. Neither of them are miracle workers.

Hopefully the improvement of our OL in the 2nd half of last year will carry on to this year and even be better with the additions.

You can't compare SD to the fins since Houck wasn't able to do squat with your OL the last 2 years.

HHURRICANE
06-21-2007, 11:19 AM
Bills O-line vs. Miami O-line:

LT: Peters will continue to play at LT and is considered one of the best in the league already. Carey moving their from RT to LT this season. ADVATAGE BILLS.

LG: Derrick Dockery has played the position sucessfully. He's above average and will be solid. Miami has yet to determine who's playing the position but it most likely will be a rookie. ADVANTAGE BILLS.

C: Fowler played well for us at center and has played here his entire career. Satele is a second round rookie. ADVANTAGE BILLS.

RG: Whittle was brought in as veteran depth and may be our starter. Preston played the position but we can use the upgrade. We also have depth depending on where we go at RT with Butler, Merz or Pennington. Hadnof moves over from center to a new position. I put this in the speculation category so I'll call it a draw. DRAW.

RT: Langston Walkeris definately a big risk/reward signing. We gave a guy alot of money for his potential. We know he can play RG but he definately wasn't a world beater in Oakland at RT. Pennington played well at RT as a rookie so we do have a decent backup there as well. LJ Shelton was a player that the Bills could have traded for or signed and we didn't. Miami has him and is moving him to RT. ADVANTAGE MIAMI.

Miami is not returning one player from the end of the season back to their current position. The Bills are starting 5 players in positions that they all played a year ago as veterans. Where is Maimi's line better than the Bills?

mysticsoto
06-21-2007, 11:37 AM
Bills O-line vs. Miami O-line:

LT: Peters will continue to play at LT and is considered one of the best in the league already. Carey moving their from RT to LT this season. ADVATAGE BILLS.

LG: Derrick Dockery has played the position sucessfully. He's above average and will be solid. Miami has yet to determine who's playing the position but it most likely will be a rookie. ADVANTAGE BILLS.

C: Fowler played well for us at center and has played here his entire career. Satele is a second round rookie. ADVANTAGE BILLS.

RG: Whittle was brought in as veteran depth and may be our starter. Preston played the position but we can use the upgrade. We also have depth depending on where we go at RT with Butler, Merz or Pennington. Hadnof moves over from center to a new position. I put this in the speculation category so I'll call it a draw. DRAW.

RT: Langston Walkeris definately a big risk/reward signing. We gave a guy alot of money for his potential. We know he can play RG but he definately wasn't a world beater in Oakland at RT. Pennington played well at RT as a rookie so we do have a decent backup there as well. LJ Shelton was a player that the Bills could have traded for or signed and we didn't. Miami has him and is moving him to RT. ADVANTAGE MIAMI.

Miami is not returning one player from the end of the season back to their current position. The Bills are starting 5 players in positions that they all played a year ago as veterans. Where is Maimi's line better than the Bills?

Good analysis with one exception, I can hardly see RT as ADVANTAGE MIAMI. We had a chance at LJ Shelton and didn't want him. And after seeing him play afterward in Cleveland, I understood why. He's horrible. I don't know how Butler or Walker fit into the picture, but I do know this...at this point, I would rather Pennington, who showed great improvement last year as the season went on, and has been working hard...over LJ Shelton, a has-been who never was!!! At worst, this is a DRAW, but personally, I still see us as having the advantage there also!

dolphan117
06-21-2007, 12:16 PM
Where did Miami improve dramatically on offense? The OC position. We went from Mike Mularkey to the guy that directed the highest scoring offense in the league the last 2 years.

Only time will tell how long it takes to turn our offense into something respetable from the garbage it was last year but IMO the biggest improvement we made as a team from last year is in the offensive scheme/play-calling department.

Goobylal
06-21-2007, 01:26 PM
I also disagree that the Dols have an advantage at RT or that it's even a draw, since Shelton is an overrated underproducing slug. I also disagree that RG is a draw since I think that Hadnot is a better RG than what the Bills will put there, until proven otherwise. The other positions I agree with.

And sure Miami's offensive scheme should be better, but it will take time to learn and get comfortable with it.

FinFaninBuffalo
06-21-2007, 05:55 PM
I think it's way too early to bash any team, including the phins, but why is Miami going to be much improved when realistically they are in the midst of rebuilding?

How does the fact that no player on the O-line will be returning to their previous position not impact the play of the offense?

Vernon Carey is moving from RT to LT, LJ Shelton is moving to RT, Hadnof is moving to RG. You are going with a rookie at center in Satele and are threatening to start another rookie at LG. What am I missing here?

Add the fact that you have a new coaching staff, new QB, new skill players, and few players returning, how are you better?

The offense was bad last year. Many changes were made because of how bad the offense was. Not making changes would have been the wrong thing to do. There are clearly questions that will not get answered until the season starts, but the changes needed to be made.

1. New coaching on offense. This has to be considered an upgrade.
2. New QB. This should be considered an upgrade.

These were the two biggest problems with the offense last season.

3. New skill players. The new FB is an upgrade. Ted Ginn will be given time to work in. Anything he adds is an upgrade from last season. The TE will need to stay healthy, but McMichael didn't play very well last season.

4. OL. This is the biggest area of concern and could outweigh all of the other improvements.

IMO, the Bills have very similar issues on the OL. The OL was bad last year. Time will tell whether the new players will result in a better OL. I think Dockery will be good, but Walker? No thanks.

HHURRICANE
06-21-2007, 08:33 PM
Where did Miami improve dramatically on offense? The OC position. We went from Mike Mularkey to the guy that directed the highest scoring offense in the league the last 2 years.

Only time will tell how long it takes to turn our offense into something respetable from the garbage it was last year but IMO the biggest improvement we made as a team from last year is in the offensive scheme/play-calling department.

I 100% agree on MM and have given several phins fans kudos there. It is an improvemnt no doubt to have Cameron over MM.

FINintheMOON
06-21-2007, 08:43 PM
JUst like McNAlly, Houck hasn't been able to do squat in MIami. Neither of them are miracle workers.

Hopefully the improvement of our OL in the 2nd half of last year will carry on to this year and even be better with the additions.

You can't compare SD to the fins since Houck wasn't able to do squat with your OL the last 2 years.

I disagree... Houck, in both of the previous years, made adjustments throughout each season that seen much better play from the OL. In both seasons there were new players on the line. This year he has a couple of rookies that he will try to put in but he does still have the bulk of the OL he had last year...

dolphan117
06-21-2007, 09:00 PM
I 100% agree on MM and have given several phins fans kudos there. It is an improvemnt no doubt to have Cameron over MM.
Exactly, although to be fair my good freind Ted would also have been an upgrade
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/dolphan117/threads/ted.jpg

patmoran2006
06-21-2007, 09:08 PM
EVery team in the NFL improved itself everywhere when its still June.

dolphan117
06-21-2007, 09:09 PM
I disagree... Houck, in both of the previous years, made adjustments throughout each season that seen much better play from the OL. In both seasons there were new players on the line. This year he has a couple of rookies that he will try to put in but he does still have the bulk of the OL he had last year...This is especialy true in the first year he was here when we gave up (if memory serves) the 4th fewest sacks in the league. He did an outstanding job that year.

Last year we started with LJ Shelton at LT where he sucked it up.... We eventialy put Damian Mcintosh at LT and moved Shelton to RG which helped a lot. By the end of the year the O line play was pretty good but that first half of the season was rough.

IMO he did an above average job both years but the line is still a concern, last years RT moved to LT, a new LG (possibly a rookie), rookie center, Hadnot moved back to RG where he had success before being moved to center, and last years awful LT/good RG Shelton moved to RT. That's quite a few moving parts.

If anyone can do it though Houck can, set up those lines for the Cowboys during their SB runs and then was responsible for setting up the lines for LT in SD before coming here. Very, very, highly regarded coach.

patmoran2006
06-21-2007, 09:11 PM
I like Miami's staff.

I just think its going to take more than one season to put the right personnel in place, which is totally not uncommon.

Goobylal
06-21-2007, 09:17 PM
This is especialy true in the first year he was here when we gave up (if memory serves) the 4th fewest sacks in the league. He did an outstanding job that year.
That had a lot to do with Gus Frerotte, who got sacked in Miami at his career rate.

Last year we started with LJ Shelton at LT where he sucked it up.... We eventialy put Damian Mcintosh at LT and moved Shelton to RG which helped a lot. By the end of the year the O line play was pretty good but that first half of the season was rough.
It was rough because Culpepper was a career 3 sack/game QB, while Harrington was not. Also the Dols are going to put Shelton back at OT, which is a mistake IMHO.

IMO he did an above average job both years but the line is still a concern, last years RT moved to LT, a new LG (possibly a rookie), rookie center, Hadnot moved back to RG where he had success before being moved to center, and last years awful LT/good RG Shelton moved to RT. That's quite a few moving parts.
The key will be if Carey can be a good LT. I doubt it. He's a classic RT and would have done well staying there. I've already made my feelings on Shelton known. And I agree that Hadnot is a good RG and better than what the Bills have, until proven otherwise. But starting a rookie at center and at LG having Liwienski, who couldn't even start for the Cards, or a rookie, is going to be pretty rough.

dolphan117
06-21-2007, 09:19 PM
I like Miami's staff.

I just think its going to take more than one season to put the right personnel in place, which is totally not uncommon.
Agreed, the Saints last year showed that one year turnarounds can happen but I think they are MUCH more the exception then the rule. For this year I am aiming low and hoping for a pleasant surprise.... However it turns out it will be a fun ride, at least we will have football to watch.

Other than the draft this offseason stuff really blows.

dolphan117
06-21-2007, 09:39 PM
That had a lot to do with Gus Frerotte, who got sacked in Miami at his career rate. I agree Gus did have something to do with it as did the offensive scheme of Stott Linehan. IMO a huge factor in offensive line play/sacks is whether or not an offense is predictable pre snap and can execute things like screens/draws to slow down the pass rush. Under Scotty we were an outstanding draw team, under MM we were pitiful at screens.


It was rough because Culpepper was a career 3 sack/game QB, while Harrington was not. Also the Dols are going to put Shelton back at OT, which is a mistake IMHO.

The key will be if Carey can be a good LT. I doubt it. He's a classic RT and would have done well staying there. I've already made my feelings on Shelton known. And I agree that Hadnot is a good RG and better than what the Bills have, until proven otherwise. But starting a rookie at center and at LG having Liwienski, who couldn't even start for the Cards, or a rookie, is going to be pretty rough.
Harrington may have gotten the ball out quicker but as the year went on our pass and run blocking both made serious strides, especially on the right side with Shelton at RG and Carey at LT.

Only time will tell whether Carey can be a LT. He was a lot better than most people know last year and was both our most consistent and best overall guy on that line. One other note to throw in here on Carey is that he was actually considered at LT during preseason two years ago, reportedly looked dam good there actually before being put at RT because if we had kept him there we would have had to play Damian McIntosh at RT a position he didn't want to play and felt his technique didn't fit.

On Shelton I just don't know, he was abismally bad at LT last year and struggled in pass protection while playing pretty well at RG. At RT he will no longer be facing the D's number one pass rusher so hopefully he will do better in pass pro and will probably continue to be pretty good in the run game.

Agreed somewhat about the center and LG positions, I like the idea of getting our young guys in there so Satele at center is fine with me, but LG is a bit of a question.

The thing about O lines though is that it isn't all about having the most dominant players, its more about having 5 guys that understand the scheme and play well together. (although obviously they still need talent) Last year the Vikings went out and signed Seattle's Hutchinson while already having McKinnie at LT.... And that line pretty much sucked.

Goobylal
06-21-2007, 10:30 PM
Harrington may have gotten the ball out quicker but as the year went on our pass and run blocking both made serious strides, especially on the right side with Shelton at RG and Carey at (edited) RT.
The switch of Shelton and McIntosh from RG to LT and vice versa happened after week 5, while the switch of QB's happened after week 4. That means that Harrington had 1 game (NE) where he had the old OL configuration, and the Pats managed 1 sack in that game. And looking at Brown's rushing totals, while he had higher averages after the switch, the Dols also played worse rush defenses. The exception being the Bears game. Hard to draw a conclusion that things definitely got better after the switch. And in any case, the Dols are moving Shelton to OT again. That move to me sounds more like a Cameron move than a Houck move.

Only time will tell whether Carey can be a LT. He was a lot better than most people know last year and was both our most consistent and best overall guy on that line. One other note to throw in here on Carey is that he was actually considered at LT during preseason two years ago, reportedly looked dam good there actually before being put at RT because if we had kept him there we would have had to play Damian McIntosh at RT a position he didn't want to play and felt his technique didn't fit.
I agree that Carey was your best OL. But you play your best candidate at LT, period. It's THE most important position on the O-line. McIntosh is an average-at-best LT and would have been no worse at RT than he was at LT. If he dictated where he wanted to play, that's not good on Houck. And still, they should have played Carey at LT LAST year, and found a better RT candidate if McIntosh was so horrible there.

On Shelton I just don't know, he was abismally bad at LT last year and struggled in pass protection while playing pretty well at RG. At RT he will no longer be facing the D's number one pass rusher so hopefully he will do better in pass pro and will probably continue to be pretty good in the run game.
Shelton played RT with the Cards and was abyssmal there as well. The guy is NOT an OT.

Agreed somewhat about the center and LG positions, I like the idea of getting our young guys in there so Satele at center is fine with me, but LG is a bit of a question.
I don't disagree with getting your young guys in there ASAP, especially high picks. That doesn't mean they won't still struggle, at least initially, and I never said that Miami's O-line was going to suck forever, or even next year.

The thing about O lines though is that it isn't all about having the most dominant players, its more about having 5 guys that understand the scheme and play well together. (although obviously they still need talent) Last year the Vikings went out and signed Seattle's Hutchinson while already having McKinnie at LT.... And that line pretty much sucked.
Can't comment too much on the Vikes' situation. But they DID have a new coaching staff/scheme.

arsenal
06-22-2007, 03:26 PM
yeah this thread is long and i didn't read the whole thing... but you guys should know the value of just not having Mike Mularkey call plays for us anymore... that is huge, especially then going to a proven quality playcaller...

when our oline had troubles with Mularkey there, nothing changed, he would still call his fake end around play action pass when our blockers couldn't hold a block for ****... and then he'd wonder why we lost 10 yards on a sack...

Cameron is a much smarter playcaller and he will do whats needed to make the offense successful... having Green is huge if you look at what our QB situation was last year, plus we have more speed on offense, and we'll have better field position with special teams to begin with...

all that = offense improved...

Crisis
08-30-2008, 05:14 AM
How do you consider the Bills 28th overall Offense with no key injuries, better then Miami's 20th overall offense, with their backup QB who was with the team all of 6 months and had very few snaps with the first team in camp? I mean seriously, you consider the Bills offense better, but Miami gave up less sacks with Oline injuries then a healthy Bills Oline. Miami has a new HC/OC yes, but they also have plenty of experience in the coaching staff with HC experience in Dom Capers.

Cam won't have anything to do with the Defense that will be Doms job so all Cam has to do is what he's been doing for the last few years, coach the offense. You also act as if changing HC is a guarantee a teams will not succeed. I think thats been proven wrong many times over. New HC's and schemes can be very successful in their first year. To be honest I think the reason the Dolphins are better on offense is because the only thing Miami has been missing to succeed on offense has been playcalling. Maimi has been way to conservative over the past 8 years, we have always played things close to the vest and let our Defense win games.

The one year we had Scott Linehan we opened up the offense and we won our last six games. Chris Chambers made the probowl and Miami had some balance. Cam is the same verticle open things up kinda coach. Maimi will stretch the field vertically that will open up the rushing lanes and Miami will have more options. All Miami needs is a top 15 offense to make the playoffs, if we can finish 20th overall with what we had last year there is no reason we can't imporve 5 spots with what we have now.

same song and dance every offseason, but completely wrong once the season starts.