Bills and Sabres at opposite end of spectrum

[YardRat]

The Buffalo Bills...

Lose more than they win, haven't sniffed the playoffs this century, get railed upon for poor marketing and merchandising, can't sell out half of their home games, won't spend big money on established stars, whine about being a small market team, etc, etc.

The Buffalo Sabres...

Have established themselves as a winning franchise (including the league's top spot overall with the President's Trophy), have been to the conference finals the past two years, have marketed the **** out of the team and led the league in merchandise sales this past season, sold out every game this year and will again next, yet they also won't spend money on established stars and whine about being a small market team, etc, etc.

When it comes right down to it...Is there really any difference?

[venis2k1]

go bills.

[X-Era]

The Buffalo Bills...

Lose more than they win, haven't sniffed the playoffs this century, get railed upon for poor marketing and merchandising, can't sell out half of their home games, won't spend big money on established stars, whine about being a small market team, etc, etc.

The Buffalo Sabres...

Have established themselves as a winning franchise (including the league's top spot overall with the President's Trophy), have been to the conference finals the past two years, have marketed the **** out of the team and led the league in merchandise sales this past season, sold out every game this year and will again next, yet they also won't spend money on established stars and whine about being a small market team, etc, etc.

When it comes right down to it...Is there really any difference?

I read the inside cover of the novel that is your way of thinking and put the book down and walked out. Not a criticism, just not interested.

[YardRat]

I read the inside cover of the novel that is your way of thinking and put the book down and walked out. Not a criticism, just not interested.

I'd be interested to know what your perception of my 'way of thinking' is.

[FlyingDutchman]

Pat MUST be away from his computer today

[X-Era]

I'd be interested to know what your perception of my 'way of thinking' is.
Fine...Ill play.

Your thoughts here are non-factual.

Havent sniffed the playoffs- this century- Its exaggeration, not a fact.
Get railed upon for per merchandising and marketing- By who? the media? There was no shortage of fans wearing Bills Jerseys, eating Ralph stadium food, and drinking Ralph drinks when I went.

Sell out less than half their home games- Huh??? Heres info from Chris Browns blog:

<table style="border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(0, 45, 120);" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="left">November 30, 2006
</td> <td align="right">Posted By: Chris Brown | Time: 5:07 PM ET | Link (http://buffalobills.com/blog/index.jsp?post_id=681)

</td> </tr></tbody></table> BLACKOUT NUMBERS: Just thought some of these Bills TV blackout numbers over the years would be of interest to a lot of the fans since it's been a popular discussion on the message boards. The numbers might surprise you.
In the 1990's there were 80 home games and 33 of them (42%) were blacked out. Forty-seven were televised (58%).
In the 2000's there have been 54 home games counting this season (and this Sunday's game) and 10 (counting this Sunday) have been blacked out. So since the turn of the century 81% of the homes games have been televised and 18% have been blacked out.
Below is a list of the number of games that were blacked out each season
1990 - 4, 1991 - 0, 1992 - 0, 1993 - 2, 1994 - 5, 1995 - 6, 1996 - 4, 1997 - 6, 1998 - 5, 1999 - 1
2000 - 1, 2001 - 4, 2002 - 2, 2003 - 0, 2004 - 1, 2005 - 0, 2006 - 2



81% were sell outs as of Nov??? Thats yet another non-true statement



Wont spend big money on established stars- This is a matter of opinion. Define "established" stars. Vets that are usually headed down in their careers like Drew Bledsoe or up and comers like Derrick Dockery??? Ill say it again, I dont care if Randy Moss cost one single penny, I wouldnt add him to our team, IMO that move will cost the Pats BIGTIME.



Sabres accomplished everything you stated. However, its amazing how winning will sell jerseys as an example. If you were around during our run in the 90's, you know how many bandwagin riders there were. Thats no big deal to me. Sabres had an outstanding run, but they flat out let themselves down in the playoffs.



Sabres didnt have to spend money on players- Well, that may cost the Sabres too, time will tell. Did the Bills make the right move in letting Nate get overpaid, a declining Fletch walk, an injured Spikes leave, and a narcissist in McGahee move on? I think so.




Whine about being a small market team- true. Ralph whined. I hated it when he did it. But, there is a HUGE difference in revenue between us and say the Cowboys or Redskins, in the end it seems he was happy, I think that means we won and got something we can deal with....Im OK with that.



When exactly before last year were Vanek, Drury, and Briere household names??? Thats a reach, they all played a fantastic year, and now they are seperated. In my opinion, Drury will not have the same level of success, Briere is a player and will be just as good, Vanek is a quandry and could step up or couldnt, its 50/50.

I see little facts to your comments and more a general distaste for the state of the Bills (in your mind). Your opinion is noted, but Ive heard it so many times its painful at this point. I choose to look up, not down. Its the offseason, idol minds can be dangerous, and I guess I feel we should just wait it out and see what weve got. Ive got plenty to be excited over, if you dont, I feel sorry for you.

[YardRat]

Fine...Ill play.

Good...I was hoping someone would.


Your thoughts here are non-factual.

Some are facts, some aren't and the basis for them are mine or other's perceptions that I've read here and elsewhere and are generalizations.


Havent sniffed the playoffs- this century- Its exaggeration, not a fact.

1999 was the last playoff appearance...That is a fact, isn't it?


Get railed upon for per merchandising and marketing- By who? the media? There was no shortage of fans wearing Bills Jerseys, eating Ralph stadium food, and drinking Ralph drinks when I went.

The media and here on the boards. One of the main talking points when others are criticizing RW is the league has passed him by. "He needs to sell the naming rights to the stadium, he needs to market the team better to increase revenue, we need a new owner that understands today's economics of the NFL, yada, yada, yada". But looking at Golisano and the Sabres, Tom and his front office have done EXACTLY what others want Ralph to do-Every game is a sell out, #1 in merchandising, etc....and yet BOTH teams are crying poverty and pissing off fans and NEITHER has won a title, so why would anybody think a different approach by the Bill's FO will bring different results? The Sabres are an example that it probably won't.

So the main point is really why does anybody believe a new owner (or a different strategy by the current one) is going to help the Bills win a championship when it hasn't helped the Sabres?


Sell out less than half their home games- Huh??? Heres info from Chris Brown...

81% were sell outs as of Nov??? Thats yet another non-true statement

My reference was to last year specifically, and if you want to get picky they sold out less than half of their home schedule including pre-season. Also, Brown's blog is fuzzy and feel good, but selective to support his argument. Why only go back to 1990? If you want to cite sell-out statistics from previous years, then don't start at the glory years of the franchise, go back to the team's inception and tell me the percentage of sell outs.


Wont spend big money on established stars- This is a matter of opinion. Define "established" stars. Vets that are usually headed down in their careers like Drew Bledsoe or up and comers like Derrick Dockery??? Ill say it again, I dont care if Randy Moss cost one single penny, I wouldnt add him to our team, IMO that move will cost the Pats BIGTIME.

Yes, it is an opinion mostly...one heard often on these boards when a Lance Briggs, et al, isn't brought on board or when players like Drury, Briere, Zubrus, etc are allowed to walk.


Sabres accomplished everything you stated. However, its amazing how winning will sell jerseys as an example. If you were around during our run in the 90's, you know how many bandwagin riders there were. Thats no big deal to me. Sabres had an outstanding run, but they flat out let themselves down in the playoffs.

I've been around since the very late '60's, junior, which I would fathom a guess means I've been a fan of both teams longer than you've been alive so you might want to be selective about throwing out the 'If you were around' statements. Where were you in the 70's and 80's?


Sabres didnt have to spend money on players- Well, that may cost the Sabres too, time will tell. Did the Bills make the right move in letting Nate get overpaid, a declining Fletch walk, an injured Spikes leave, and a narcissist in McGahee move on? I think so.

I agree with this comment, but you're missing the point of the thread.


Whine about being a small market team- true. Ralph whined. I hated it when he did it. But, there is a HUGE difference in revenue between us and say the Cowboys or Redskins,

Would a surge in revenue actually help the Bills win a championship? It didn't do anything for the Sabres. It hasn't done anything for the Cowboys or the Redskins.


I see little facts to your comments and more a general distaste for the state of the Bills (in your mind). Your opinion is noted, but Ive heard it so many times its painful at this point. I choose to look up, not down. Its the offseason, idol minds can be dangerous, and I guess I feel we should just wait it out and see what weve got. Ive got plenty to be excited over, if you dont, I feel sorry for you.

You might want to go back and re-read some of my posts, especially regarding the Bills...You're way off on this conclusion.

The bottom line is this...Ralph is old-school, Tom is New Age, yet the results are the same...No trophies.

That's a fact.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

I will tell you the difference the way I see it. If the Bills go out this season and win, maybe like 7-3, half of the fans around will not care about the Sabres anymore or as much. That is the difference.

[THATHURMANATOR]

The Buffalo Bills...

Lose more than they win, haven't sniffed the playoffs this century, get railed upon for poor marketing and merchandising, can't sell out half of their home games, won't spend big money on established stars, whine about being a small market team, etc, etc.

The Buffalo Sabres...

Have established themselves as a winning franchise (including the league's top spot overall with the President's Trophy), have been to the conference finals the past two years, have marketed the **** out of the team and led the league in merchandise sales this past season, sold out every game this year and will again next, yet they also won't spend money on established stars and whine about being a small market team, etc, etc.

When it comes right down to it...Is there really any difference?


They are small market teams. What do you want?

The Bills have spent big money on stars in the past 5 years(Spikes, Fletcher etc)

The Sabres just shelled out 50 mil for Vanek.

I don't get the point of this.

[superbills]

I will tell you the difference the way I see it. If the Bills go out this season and win, maybe like 7-3, half of the fans around will not care about the Sabres anymore or as much. That is the difference.

Hmmm. Half of WHAT fans? Bills fans? Or are you saying that Sabres fans will forget about the Sabres and focus on the Bills more? Forgetting about the Sabres just isn't going to happen. Not anytime soon anyway, regardless of how good the Bills are. I'm not saying that if the Bills win there won't be a shift of interest, but the Sabres will not be forgotten. There's too much of a buzz (positive adn negative) around that team for them to be relegated to irrelevant.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Hmmm. Half of WHAT fans? Bills fans? Or are you saying that Sabres fans will forget about the Sabres and focus on the Bills more? Forgetting about the Sabres just isn't going to happen. Not anytime soon anyway, regardless of how good the Bills are. I'm not saying that if the Bills win there won't be a shift of interest, but the Sabres will not be forgotten. There's too much of a buzz (positive adn negative) around that team for them to be relegated to irrelevant.
Yes if the Bills are good they rule the city BOTTOM LINE. It doesn't matter how good the Sabres are doing.

[X-Era]

Good...I was hoping someone would.



Some are facts, some aren't and the basis for them are mine or other's perceptions that I've read here and elsewhere and are generalizations.



1999 was the last playoff appearance...That is a fact, isn't it?



The media and here on the boards. One of the main talking points when others are criticizing RW is the league has passed him by. "He needs to sell the naming rights to the stadium, he needs to market the team better to increase revenue, we need a new owner that understands today's economics of the NFL, yada, yada, yada". But looking at Golisano and the Sabres, Tom and his front office have done EXACTLY what others want Ralph to do-Every game is a sell out, #1 in merchandising, etc....and yet BOTH teams are crying poverty and pissing off fans and NEITHER has won a title, so why would anybody think a different approach by the Bill's FO will bring different results? The Sabres are an example that it probably won't.

So the main point is really why does anybody believe a new owner (or a different strategy by the current one) is going to help the Bills win a championship when it hasn't helped the Sabres?



My reference was to last year specifically, and if you want to get picky they sold out less than half of their home schedule including pre-season. Also, Brown's blog is fuzzy and feel good, but selective to support his argument. Why only go back to 1990? If you want to cite sell-out statistics from previous years, then don't start at the glory years of the franchise, go back to the team's inception and tell me the percentage of sell outs.



Yes, it is an opinion mostly...one heard often on these boards when a Lance Briggs, et al, isn't brought on board or when players like Drury, Briere, Zubrus, etc are allowed to walk.



I've been around since the very late '60's, junior, which I would fathom a guess means I've been a fan of both teams longer than you've been alive so you might want to be selective about throwing out the 'If you were around' statements. Where were you in the 70's and 80's?



I agree with this comment, but you're missing the point of the thread.



Would a surge in revenue actually help the Bills win a championship? It didn't do anything for the Sabres. It hasn't done anything for the Cowboys or the Redskins.



You might want to go back and re-read some of my posts, especially regarding the Bills...You're way off on this conclusion.

The bottom line is this...Ralph is old-school, Tom is New Age, yet the results are the same...No trophies.

That's a fact.

Could have been a misinterpretation of the thrust of your thread on my part. No trophys...true. No denying that.

But what then? Ok, we dont have trophys, what now? What do we do about it? My point is that the Bills are doing what I would have hoped they would do. I was originally suprised by the number of vets that were sent packing...but it all makes sense at this point.

Its the offseason, its only natural that we will find new way to pump and grind at Bills topics, happens every year. But theres little difference between todays Bills and the Bills the day after draft day, I was actually feeling good then. Why not now?

I say we just hang on and wait to see this years product.

But, I dont disagree at all that we havent gotten it done yet, I just look forward to a brighter day.

[YardRat]

They are small market teams. What do you want?

The Bills have spent big money on stars in the past 5 years(Spikes, Fletcher etc)

The Sabres just shelled out 50 mil for Vanek.

I don't get the point of this.

Marketing, merchandise sales, home sell outs, etc doesn't make the difference between winning a championship and not, obviously. If you want me to take your side of the coin (that the Bills have spent big money on players), well, that didn't exactly work either, now did it?

So how does a small market team win a championship?

[superbills]

Marketing, merchandise sales, home sell outs, etc doesn't make the difference between winning a championship and not, obviously. If you want me to take your side of the coin (that the Bills have spent big money on players), well, that didn't exactly work either, now did it?

So how does a small market team win a championship?

By building from within and retaining your core. People forget that the Sabres have been successful because of the guys that they have developed in their system, not because of guys they brought in. Drury and Briere were players who, while they're superstars in some regard, were not part of the long-term solution for the team. They were brought in to put the team over the top and that did not happen. Now it's time to move on. It turns out that not re-signing these players actually benefited them in a way as they were able to match Vanek's offer sheet. The Sabres strong draft history and system are what will eventually bring them a championship, not spending oodles of money on free-agents and rent-a-players.

And the Bills are being built in a similar vein. While we took advantage of free agency to bolster our offensive line this year, Marv is taking a strong approach of building from within and using the draft to fill the voids left by players who hit paydirt somewhere else. We still have to see whether this will all pan out, but so far it looks promising on the surface. And don't jump on me because I'm well aware that there are serious questions that need to be answered about some positions on the roster, but I'll reserve judement on those things until we see these units play together a little.

Bottom line is the Bills and Sabres are actually not that dissimilar. They are going to have to trust in their development systems and coaches and maybe find a little luck along the way, and then who knows? What you may find in a few years is that the Bills resemble the Patriots more in that they have a solid core of young players who have developed in their system and are keeping the team competitive at a very high level, despite some big-name departures that may happen along the way. And within that time frame you may strike gold like the Pats did and get a couple of Championships under your belt. It's all in the system and the people with whom you surround your players. Make no mistake, we are going to have to be patient, but it looks like we're on a solid track. We're a team that can make some noise and prove some people wrong. Never under-estimate the underdog :up: