no Adams= no Peterson

[Ingtar33]

I've seen the talk around here about who the Bills should draft in the first round for the DL. Much of the talk has centered on Peterson. Well the probable non-signing of Adams makes Peterson the most unlikely of draft pick. The reason? He's too small to (this season) play DT every down in the NFL.

The Bills hopes now realistically ride on two players who could fill our void right out of college. Two guys with the size to play right now. The first would be Williams Joseph. He's basically a Pat Williams clone, and strangely has been dropping on a lot of draft boards... he really would be a steal if he made it all the way to us, but stranger things have happened. The second would be Rein Long, and while it wouldn't be such a reach for him to fall to us, we'd have to bank on his abilities to lean, as he would need a lot of coaching to dominate in the pros... a lot of physical skills (maybe the most in the DT draft), lacking technique.

[jchild178]

im a joseph fan all the way! but maybe we could trade up to get kennedy from penn st. for a 7h rounder...who knows?

[Tatonka]

thanks for the info.. i still dont feel good about this situation.. do you honestly beleive that either one of those guys is gonna come in and be dominant? i dont.. rookies take time.. and this is if we got lucky and joseph fell.. but look at how highly gerard warren was hyped a few years ago.. and he has been anything but dominant.. inconsistent is the best word for him.. look at all the DTs taken in the first last year.. henderson played decent, but not close to pro bowl level.. all the others either got hurt or faded into oblivion..

and rein long.. great.. that is what we need.. a guy that had a lot of sacks in college.. who has performed poorly or not performed at all during workouts.. and is know to have bad form, so will need serious coaching to be ready.. yeah.. i am sure he will be ready to roll in week one of the season..

/sigh...

[venis2k1]

I wouldnt be supprised if we traded up, DT has suddenly become very important.

[EDS]

I read that Long looked terrible at the combine - stiff, slow and lacked change of directions skills. That scares me a little. Does anyone else have different information on him? I know he dominated this year in college.

[venis2k1]

I think Tatonka needs a hug, he got up on the wrong side of the bed today.

[Novacane]

They may not come in and be dominant but Adams was not dominant last year either. If lost out on the Sam Adams of 2001 I am disapointed..............if we lost out on the Sam Adams of 2002 and the player I watched in the SB than I am glad we did not offer him anything more than 2 mill SB

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
thanks for the info.. i still dont feel good about this situation.. do you honestly beleive that either one of those guys is gonna come in and be dominant? i dont.. rookies take time.. and this is if we got lucky and joseph fell.. but look at how highly gerard warren was hyped a few years ago.. and he has been anything but dominant.. inconsistent is the best word for him.. look at all the DTs taken in the first last year.. henderson played decent, but not close to pro bowl level.. all the others either got hurt or faded into oblivion..

and rein long.. great.. that is what we need.. a guy that had a lot of sacks in college.. who has performed poorly or not performed at all during workouts.. and is know to have bad form, so will need serious coaching to be ready.. yeah.. i am sure he will be ready to roll in week one of the season..

/sigh...

There have been quite a few rookies in recent years that have been producing John Henderson, Albert Haynesworth, Richard Seymour, Chris Hovan, Julius Peppers. It is not a guarantee that will will draft a player that will have an immediate impact but this years class of DT's and DE's are one of the deepest in years. We will have player to fill that void next to Pat Williams one way or another. Go Bills!

[Tatonka]

henderson was solid and not great.. but he was the best of the group.. haynesworth was inconsistent as hell... seymour didnt really come around until his second year.. hovan either.. and pepers is a totally different position.. and also got suspended..

i am not saying that seymour or hovan arent studs.. but they were not studs immediately.. and that is what we need.. wins now.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by venis2k1
I think Tatonka needs a hug, he got up on the wrong side of the bed today.

i went to bed last night after reading "v-coach reports we signed sam adam"

i was so damn happy.. even had trouble sleeping.. just excited..

i got up easy this morning.. excited to read the official announcement...

and i see a post by halbert titled "Sam i am.. NOT!"..

yeah.. that pretty much just ruined my day.. and i am in a piss poor mood now.. sorry :xplode: :xplode: :xplode: :xplode: :( :( :teeth:

[The Spaz]

Listen I am not going to be upset if we don't go to the Superbowl this year. I will say we better improve if we make the playoff and win a round or 2 then it was an improvement. WE need to have faith in these young guys because who knows if Pat Williams will stay with us when is contract is up. I am a little upset that we are probably not going to sign Adams but he doesn't want to be here and doesn't want to show his worth. If he think's he can't produce then he won't get his incentives. I am more than happy to grab a DT in the draft and watch him develop. These guys in this upcoming draft are solid all the way through to the 2nd round. Here are some players we could get in our #23 spot if we stay at that spot, Rien Long 6-4 290lbs, Kevin Williams 6-4 301lbs, Jonathon Sullivan 6-3 305lbs, Kenny Peterson 6-2 295lbs, Ty Warren 6-4 300lbs. There are others but like I said this draft is deep as hell in both DT and DE so we will get a big body no doubt. Go Bills!

[justasportsfan]

Tataonka, you are starting to sound like wys. Relax, even if the Adams thing didn't happen we are still considered to have had the best FA movements by any team. TD is not perfect but did you expect him to sign every player you want?

[Ingtar33]

I agree T,

If Joseph falls, we probably will be set at DT... he might not dominate, but he'd be an immediate improvement. Rein Long, he's a beast of a man (and he didn't run at the combine), and is expected to perform at an individual workout on March 28th (he didn't work out in Washington St.'s pro day).

[Kicker22705]

Originally posted by jchild178
im a joseph fan all the way! but maybe we could trade up to get kennedy from penn st. for a 7h rounder...who knows?

sorry to tell you but a 7th rounder will not get you up to where you need to go to get kennedy. Swapping 1st, and giving a 2nd and 3rd probably won't get us there either. but then again the bungles have the first pick.... you may be on to something.

[Gunzlingr]

Originally posted by justasportsfan
TD is not perfect but did you expect him to sign every player you want?

Hell yes!! :D

[Throne Logic]

Originally posted by justasportsfan
TD is not perfect but did you expect him to sign every player you want?

Partially right. I don't consider this to be a flaw with TD. It just follows the same path as he's been following. Determine what a player is worth to Buffalo, determine what he's worth to other teams, make an offer based heavily upon the first with a small influence by the latter.

He did this with pretty much everyone he's dealt with so far: Bledsoe and the Pats, Price and the Falcons, Spikes and the Bangles, etc. We're just used to it ending in TD's favor.

Who knows, maybe no one will want to pay Sam anymore than what he was just offered and he'll wind up in Buffalo anyway. Although this is unlikely, as I see someone like Baltimore overpaying for him.

Point is: TD has a solid plan, which he doesn't deviate too much from. I like the way he works.

[itsandthings]

seymour didnt really come around until his second year

This isn't so. It is true that Seymour was set back by a hamstring injury early in the 2001 season, but by the end of the season he was one of the better DT's around and a huge reason the Pats won the Super Bowl.

Once Seymour got healthy, he completed dominated the middle of the DL. Remember, the Pats were a 2-gap team despite playing mostly 4-3 down the stretch, so Seymour was attracting attention. Thus, a lot of Seymour's contribution didn't show up on the stat sheet as the LB's were able to benefit from his controlling the middle of the line.

One game the Pats do not win without Seymour was the AFC Championship against Pittsburgh. The Pats shut down the Steeler's running game, which was best in the NFL that season. Seymour was dominant in that game, rag-dolling guys up front and collapsing the pocket. The Steelers had no answer for him.

[TigerJ]

Buffalo would have to pull a Mike Ditka to move high enough to get Kennedy (trading all of NO's picks to draft Ricky Williams). If Joseph doesn't drop, might Buffalo trade down to pick up Rein Long or Ty Warren at a better value location? Then I'd also like to see Buffalo draft James Lee on day two as a project player.

Ingtar, do you have any ideas where Buffalo might look to find a big Vonnie Holiday-like left defensive end?

[Tatonka]

ok.. so seymour was impressive for the final 1/4th of the season..

think about all the other DTs that were taken in the first or second round now.. that is alot of people that didnt do squat compaired to one that did at the end of his rookie season.

dont compair me to wys either.. i am just pissed off.. their is a big difference.. wys is happy to be overanalitical and pesimistic.. i am just irritated and in a bad mood so i am being this way, but it is out of character for me..

we have been waiting on sam adams to come to buffalo for 2 weeks.. HE has been waiting to come to buffalo for 2 weeks too!.. he does want to coem to buffalo.. he has stated so.. but for him to have to earn his paycheck on an incentive based deal is garbage... his agent is exactly right.. his record speaks for itself.. he gets teams to superbowls... any d line he plays on rank in the top 5 of run defenses.. this is not an aberation...

he deserves a decent contract with a decent signing bonus.. not the dog **** that td offered.. if i was a FA DT and saw the figures that td offered to sam adams, who is the best DT on the market, period..no exceptions .. i wouldnt even bother talking to buffalo.. why waste your time.. if your not as good as adams and he got ****.. you would be waiting for a **** offer too.

[The Spaz]

If Sam Adams wants to get paid then why not go onto the field and tear it up then. I mean if he think he can still produce at a high level then it shoud be no big deal to prove it. Go Bills!

[justasportsfan]

I think he only got such an offer because he rung up a huge hotel bill.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
If Sam Adams wants to get paid then why not go onto the field and tear it up then. I mean if he think he can still produce at a high level then it shoud be no big deal to prove it. Go Bills!

yeah.. why dont they do the same for faulk.. or any other pro bowl player..

the guy has proved himself.. it is not fair to a pro bowl DT to say you can play for an incentive based contract.. and if you get hurt.. sorry.. thats your problem.. but you wont get paid.

i am sure thorton would have accepted the same deal right? psssh

[Ingtar33]

Unless there are underlying injury/health concerns T is right with this one... The offer TD gave Adams was an insult.

DT's just don't produce at a probowl level their rookie year... the best you can hope for is solid play. Players like Seymour are very rare... and as has been stated accurately here, even he didn't do anything for the first 12 games.

Ty Warren would be another player (like Joseph) who I think would be a steal at the 23rd pick... he's too good to fall much lower... Rein Long on the other hand could be available later in round one... but he wouldn't make it past the very start of round two, as one of the teams like the Bengals, Texans, or Lions would most certainly take him.

[Tatonka]

god.. at least someone agrees with me.. what a change.. i thought i was the only one who does have just this blind faith in TD.. assuming that he can do no wrong..

he was wrong this time.. unless there is something that we dont know. but IMHO.. he adams had a serious knee problem, why would TD still want him?? he wouldnt.. he would have just passed.. TD wants him no question.. he is just being cheap.

i will laugh if td has to go back to the well on this one and offer up more cash for adams because we cant find a suitable replacement. then all the **** talking your all doing about adams will suddenly turn into " oh finally, adams a bill, whoo hooo."

[The Spaz]

If Sam Adams sign his contract it will only be on TD's terms no doubt. Read some other threads that there are only 2 teams interested in am and that the money isn't going to be as high as he think he's going to get! Go Bills!

[Tatonka]

just wanted to point out ingtars quote again.. obviously everyone thinks i am an idiot for being this upset about it.. and i will get over it until i see the first game where we give up 230 yards again.. or maybe we fix the problem with a rookie.. fix = getting inconsistent play below an allstar level, as so so few rookies perform well in their first year..

[BillsMan80]

I'm not as high on Ty Warren as you guys. I feel Warren would be a good selection in the Mid Second Round Range, but the players I like most for our pick are either William Joseph, Kevin Williams, or Jonathan Sullivan. Joseph takes up space in the middle and would be able to step right in next to Big Pat. Williams has the size, but also has the speed to penetrate and get pressure on the QB and same with Sullivan. In fact, scouts think that Sullivan is as good as if not better than Seymour and Stroud, and some feel he will be better than both in the NFL.

[Ingtar33]

Hey BillsMan80,

I can tell you've got a good mind for dissemination of information, because you mentioned Sullivan and Williams...

Too bad your not high on Warren... keep a good eye out, and watch Warren's performance’s in big games... the man's got talent... he's got real good lateral talent... and something I'm not used to seeing.

All my ZB's to anyone who names what that is...

[Ingtar33]

sorry, I withdraw the offer because its not far... somewhere down the road I'll reveal what it is…

[TigerJ]

Ty Warren gets mixed reviews because he was a career underachiever in college but was among the most impressive defensive linemen in the allstar bowl season (senior bowl, etc.). If he is the career underachiever in the pros, the team that drafts him will be chewing nails. If he plays to his potential as revealed in the post season, he'll be a bargain wherever he's picked. I think it's almost a lock that he'll be available at #23.

I agree with Tatonka. It is highly preferable as far as defensive production is concerned for Buffalo to sign a solid veteran defensive tackle. It is not, however, the end of the world if Buffalo does not land one. Ideally Ron Edwards is not the guy we want paired with PW, but he should continue to improve from last year. He might be at least average this coming season. If Buffalo drafts someone in the first round, conceivably by mid season at least the newcomer would be able to replace Edwards and provide an upgrade. We also have a huge upgrade at linebacker. I have to believer there will be upgrades in the secondary. And I think we have the ingredients to generate more pass rush from our defensive ends already on the team. It may not be enough to make the Bills a dominant defence next year, but they will not be the league defensive doormat either. With our offence relatively intact, that may just be enough.

[Ingtar33]

Wow, TJ, you almost hit what I was aiming at your first try... if you'd have hit it I'd of given you the ZBs without argument... good job on Warren…

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by TigerJ

I agree with Tatonka.

that is something i havent heard much today :D

i am worried as hell that edwards will be the starter.. i think if he is, we are in serious trouble.. i have a hard time believing that he will be anything.. he was horrible last year.. just horrible..

i think the DT position is going to seriously affect our pass rush too... in a not so good way. if we dont get a serious upgrade..

it should be interesting to see how this shakes out.. because adams will not be a bill

[Tatonka]

just tell us ing.. this day has been stressfull enough :)

[Ingtar33]

OK, Warren has what I consider "two gears"... very few players have it... people like Bobby Orr or maybe Joe Montana have it... It's the ability to show up and dominate when all the **** is on the line... Warren is one of those guys... he can under-whelm you... but when things are big.. he crushes everyone and anyone who opposes you.

It's sort of the ultimate intangible in my book... the ability to perform when all the world is on the line…

[Tatonka]

wow.. that is some endorsement!

what do you think about him being an underperformer? i guess that means he is lazy? i know nothing about him as a college player so... you think this is gonna be an issue in his NFL career?

so your saying your ideal scenario would be joseph to fall to us in the first, then warren fall to us in the second and we take them both? :D

[Tatonka]

and why do you think warren is so low on others boards if he can be such a monster?

[TigerJ]

OK, we can draft him at #23 and let Tim Krumrie have at him in training camp. Maybe he can get Warren's "second gear" to show up more often. It would be nice to see that ability demonstrated in a Bills uniform.

[Tatonka]

i thought warren was a guy that could very well be there at 14 in the second round?

[Ingtar33]

LOL... Joseph and Warren?

No, there is no chance both are available... and yes it is a good endorsement... Listen, maybe he (Warren) wouldn't be a good pickup, he has underperformed often, but he has shown up great against serious opposition... which might (and I emphasize might) translate into stellar pro play when he is in big games... sort of like a Montana...

The trick is, he has the physical tools for it... but does he really translate well to the pros... My gut says yes…

[TigerJ]

OK, I'm convinced. TD are you following this?

[BuffaloRanger]

I agree with Tatonka!

Seymour was the 6th pick overall!!!

How can anyone compare what we'll get at #23 to him? The draft is deep, but not that deep.

The advantage of FA is that it allows teams to draft veterans and focus on other needs in the draft. Now the Bills have to select DT in the 1st rd. They may lose draft picks by trading up. Not signing Adams would be no big deal if there were other FAs just as good.

The fact that SA had a bad SB is a non-issue. Alot of Bills had bad SBs and one is in the HOF now.

[The Spaz]

This draft is very deep of DT's IMO. Go check any draft mag they are giveng this class of DT's and DE's a grade of A-A- and can find starting talent from the 1st rnd until the the bottom of the 2nd round. Go Bills!

[Tatonka]

the point is not that the doesnt have enough good DTs.. the point is that only ONE, in seymour played like a stud in his first year.. and that was not till 3/4th of the season was gone... and he was a 6th overall pick..

imho.. if we pin our hopes on a rookie.. we are not in good shape.. i really would not be opposed to taking 2 DTs with the first three picks.

DT, FS, DT

[colin]

We can get sam and sign a DT.

Rotating in DTs, especially if we have 3 on the team that can get after you, will keep them fresh throughout the season, and throughout each game.

We have a few DEs now, and some outstanding athleticism all over our D, especially the front 7. With a 46 mixed with some zone blitzing (we have the master for that now), we could have opposing Os guessing on every down, instead of pencilling in what they knew we would always do over the last two years.

[Tatonka]

this thread is based on the fact that sam is not and will not be a bill.. if we had him, then drafting any DT is not a problem, because we dont have to depend on them to be a starter

[TigerJ]

I do think that drafting a DT remains a good idea whether or not Adams signs. First, it takes a while for a DT to mature. Some first year guys are really productive, but most are not. By the time a good rookie is ready to play full time, Adams' playing days and effectiveness will be pretty limited. Second, even now Adams is not the most fit DT in the world. He may well need to take frequent breathers. We want a good DT to rotate in when Sam is taking oxygen.

[Tatonka]

i dont think anyone would argue that..

[BuffaloRanger]

Tatonka,

You know me and how concerned I am over the O-line. A future stud needs to be brought in this year to compete at C/OG. The only depth there is Pucillo 7th rdr, and he probably needs more time. I know the line has cohesion, but at least one O-linman will go down for a few games this year. If it's in the interior, it could get ugly.

OL has to be addressed on the first day, or pick up a quality cap casualty on 1 June.

[Tatonka]

i have no idea what TD is thinking... i wouldnt be surprised if i saw him use the 1st or 2nd pick on any position other than QB, P, or K.