Why are some people on here...

[ublinkwescore]

so quick to criticize Ellison - I went back and watched a bunch (VS. Houston, Jville, Miami at home and NY Jets on the road) of the Billszone highlight vids made by JJamez - and the games he played in, he had a tendency to make a lot of plays, be around the ball a lot, along with finishing off tackles when other players who made first contact may not have stopped the ball carrier - so what if he is "undersized" look at Zach Thomas - hate him as much as I do, the guy was a good LBer in his day - though he isn't what he used to be now.

Honestly, I would not be nervous if he ended up starting.

If he were to sit bench, that means our depth at LB is better than what some people are whining about.

[more cowbell]

As i've been saying all off-season. Whenever Ellison played for Spikes last year, which was a lot, there was absolutely no drop off at all.

[Philagape]

I thought he did very well for a rookie. I'm content with him starting

[Tatonka]

i have no problem with ellison either.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Cuz he ain't no london fletcher-baker-candlestick maker and he isn't named TKO and I have a vested interest in those two because I owned their jerseys and I don't like Marv because he got rid of McNugget and and I am of below average intelligence. Seriously, last year LB was the most competent part of our D and I expect that to carry over into this year.

[BuffaloBillsStampede]

I am really convinced Ellison is going to be very solid. He is a lot faster than people think. He flys to the ball all the time. He just is really solid overall.

[Devin]

Some people have been saying ellison will be a solid starter since last season.

Others dont like him because he was a 6th rounder.

[SABURZFAN]

so quick to criticize Ellison - I went back and watched a bunch (VS. Houston, Jville, Miami at home and NY Jets on the road) of the Billszone highlight vids made by JJamez - and the games he played in, he had a tendency to make a lot of plays, be around the ball a lot, along with finishing off tackles when other players who made first contact may not have stopped the ball carrier - so what if he is "undersized" look at Zach Thomas - hate him as much as I do, the guy was a good LBer in his day - though he isn't what he used to be now.

Honestly, I would not be nervous if he ended up starting.

If he were to sit bench, that means our depth at LB is better than what some people are whining about.



calm down Husky.let's not overreact.go get you an 18 inch sandwich or something.ellison will be fine.

[Wys Guy]

so quick to criticize Ellison - I went back and watched a bunch (VS. Houston, Jville, Miami at home and NY Jets on the road) of the Billszone highlight vids made by JJamez - and the games he played in, he had a tendency to make a lot of plays, be around the ball a lot, along with finishing off tackles when other players who made first contact may not have stopped the ball carrier - so what if he is "undersized" look at Zach Thomas - hate him as much as I do, the guy was a good LBer in his day - though he isn't what he used to be now.

Honestly, I would not be nervous if he ended up starting.

If he were to sit bench, that means our depth at LB is better than what some people are whining about.

Yeah, and Miami, Houston, and Jax had such tremendous showings in the playoffs too. ;)

Nevertheless, the Jets game in which you said he made a lot of plays in if I read the above correctly, and as the only decently balanced offensive team that the Bills played that Ellison logged any significant stats in. So let's take a look at what kind of an impact he made via his tackles.

1st: Assisted tackle w/ Spikes, Cedric Houston on a gain of 5
2nd: Assisted w/ Wire on a Houston gain of 7
3rd: Miller 33 yard KO Return
4th: Pennington 4-yard scramble
5th: Assisted with Fletcher, Houston for 6 yards
6th: Assisted with Anderson, Houston for no gain
7th: Leon Washington, 4 yard pass play
8th: Assisted w/ Youboty, TE Baker on a 10 yard pass play
9th: 4 yard pass play to Washington

Sometimes perceptions lag reality. Nevertheless, what is it about that play that suggests that Ellison is anything other than a LB worthy of concern?

After the 33 yard KO return, his involvement in tackles allowed an average of 5.0 yards per play. For a member of the secondary that might work, but not for a member of the front 7. There isn't one play for a loss in there.

[SABURZFAN]

Yeah, and Miami, Houston, and Jax had such tremendous showings in the playoffs too. ;)

Nevertheless, the Jets game in which you said he made a lot of plays in if I read the above correctly, and as the only decently balanced offensive team that the Bills played that Ellison logged any significant stats in. So let's take a look at what kind of an impact he made via his tackles.

1st: Assisted tackle w/ Spikes, Cedric Houston on a gain of 5
2nd: Assisted w/ Wire on a Houston gain of 7
3rd: Miller 33 yard KO Return
4th: Pennington 4-yard scramble
5th: Assisted with Fletcher, Houston for 6 yards
6th: Assisted with Anderson, Houston for no gain
7th: Leon Washington, 4 yard pass play
8th: Assisted w/ Youboty, TE Baker on a 10 yard pass play
9th: 4 yard pass play to Washington

Sometimes perceptions lag reality. Nevertheless, what is it about that play that suggests that Ellison is anything other than a LB worthy of concern?

After the 33 yard KO return, his involvement in tackles allowed an average of 5.0 yards per play. For a member of the secondary that might work, but not for a member of the front 7. There isn't one play for a loss in there.



which play do we take out to make him look worse? :idunno:

[SquishDaFish]

edited for tos

[Mahdi]

If Poz starts in the middle would DiGorgio then battle for OLB with Ellison or would he just be a backup? Cause the way their talking about DiGio seems like hes starting fer sure.

[ublinkwescore]

If Poz starts in the middle would DiGorgio then battle for OLB with Ellison or would he just be a backup? Cause the way their talking about DiGio seems like hes starting fer sure.

Which would be a good thing.

Especially since we would have great depth in Ellison should DiG go down - provided Ellison would end up being #2 on the depth chart on DiG's side.

[ublinkwescore]

Where the hell is Op at with his lame @$$ *****ery about how he only started because we were that weak on D?

I'm sorry, but playmakers make plays regardless - and Ellison made plays - I can see him winding up as a fulltime starter some time in the next two seasons - hopefully because he plays his way onto the field, not through injury.

[G. Host]

Some people have been saying ellison will be a solid starter since last season.

Others dont like him because he was a 6th rounder.

Fletcher was a UDFA for Rams and did pretty well. I'd like to hear Mikey's report and see how much a year of professional development has done for him.

My biggest concern is not one LB but the set - we do not appear to have a set suitable for 3rd/4th and short situations - some times having the mass makes all of the difference but perhaps in those situations they will put 5 linemen in there and have one or two stand up. Denney has the speed to cover as a LB in the short range area.

[Don't Panic]

Ellison or DiG... whoever it is, all they have to do is play fairly well (nothing spectacular) since they will be the 3rd best of our starting LBing corps.

[OpIv37]

Cuz he ain't no london fletcher-baker-candlestick maker and he isn't named TKO and I have a vested interest in those two because I owned their jerseys and I don't like Marv because he got rid of McNugget and and I am of below average intelligence. Seriously, last year LB was the most competent part of our D and I expect that to carry over into this year.

wait- it was the most competent part of the D but then you rip two of the starters? And how is it going to continue if we LOST two starters?

Your post makes no sense.

When it comes to LB we have no experience or leadership. Fletcher's physical talent may have declined a little but now we have no one who can "QB" the defense.

As far as Spikes- everyone wants to give Josh Reed and Peerless Price and Coy Wire and Robert Royan and Kevin Everrett another chance- these are guys who have been consistently mediocre or worse. But when it comes to Spikes- who was a beast before his injury and one of the top players at his position- everyone is so quick to get rid of him and they don't want to take the chance. It's completely illogical.

[PECKERWOOD]

Ellison is one of the players that I predicted to have a great season this year.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Yeah, and Miami, Houston, and Jax had such tremendous showings in the playoffs too. ;)

Nevertheless, the Jets game in which you said he made a lot of plays in if I read the above correctly, and as the only decently balanced offensive team that the Bills played that Ellison logged any significant stats in. So let's take a look at what kind of an impact he made via his tackles.

1st: Assisted tackle w/ Spikes, Cedric Houston on a gain of 5
2nd: Assisted w/ Wire on a Houston gain of 7
3rd: Miller 33 yard KO Return
4th: Pennington 4-yard scramble
5th: Assisted with Fletcher, Houston for 6 yards
6th: Assisted with Anderson, Houston for no gain
7th: Leon Washington, 4 yard pass play
8th: Assisted w/ Youboty, TE Baker on a 10 yard pass play
9th: 4 yard pass play to Washington

Sometimes perceptions lag reality. Nevertheless, what is it about that play that suggests that Ellison is anything other than a LB worthy of concern?

After the 33 yard KO return, his involvement in tackles allowed an average of 5.0 yards per play. For a member of the secondary that might work, but not for a member of the front 7. There isn't one play for a loss in there.

http://www.garden-water-fountains.com/manneken_pis_boy_peeing_urinating_outdoor_garden_water_fountain_pond_med.jpg



http://webzoom.freewebs.com/sealionscouts/Parade2.JPG

[RockStar36]

My guess is that it's because he isn't a big name.

[OpIv37]

Where the hell is Op at with his lame @$$ *****ery about how he only started because we were that weak on D?

I'm sorry, but playmakers make plays regardless - and Ellison made plays - I can see him winding up as a fulltime starter some time in the next two seasons - hopefully because he plays his way onto the field, not through injury.

um, if you look at the stats Wys just posted, he DIDN'T make plays.

A lot of people on this board focus in on one or two big plays from an entire season and use those plays alone as the basis for an opinion.

[Goobylal]

So why didn't the Bills bring in a FA, or draft someone, to replace Ellison? Are you guys saying you know more than the Bills about their team? Or is this based on the fact that you predicted some players or coaches in the past would fail?

[OpIv37]

My guess is that it's because he isn't a big name.

NO ONE on our D is a big name (well, arguably Schobel).

justa and others are fond of saying "well we can't be like the Redskins and sign every big name to a huge contract" and that's true.

The missing piece is that there are more than two options: we can do better than the bunch of nobody's that we have without going into Redskins mode.

Sometimes names are names, but usually names become names by making plays.

[OpIv37]

So why didn't the Bills bring in a FA, or draft someone, to replace Ellison? Are you guys saying you know more than the Bills about their team? Or is this based on the fact that you predicted some players or coaches in the past would fail?

I don't know why the Bills didn't draft someone or bring in a FA. Our D was BAD last year and we did NOTHING to help except draft Poz, and we lost 3 starters. It makes no sense.

I'm saying what wasn't good enough last year won't be good enough this year. It's really not that much of a stretch.

[RockStar36]

NO ONE on our D is a big name (well, arguably Schobel).

justa and others are fond of saying "well we can't be like the Redskins and sign every big name to a huge contract" and that's true.

The missing piece is that there are more than two options: we can do better than the bunch of nobody's that we have without going into Redskins mode.

Sometimes names are names, but usually names become names by making plays.

I was ok with Ellison filling in last year and I'm sure all that experience plus a whole off-season working with the same system will only benefit him this season. That's all I'm saying.

[OpIv37]

I was ok with Ellison filling in last year and I'm sure all that experience plus a whole off-season working with the same system will only benefit him this season. That's all I'm saying.

he probably will get better. I'm just saying that it may not be enough. Our D is way too green because the FO/coaches decided to replace pretty much the entire D at the same time.

[Goobylal]

I got the sense from Spikes and Fletcher that they knew this was their last year in Buffalo. I also thought that Hargrove was more of a leader/inspiration than either of those guys. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate what they did, but it was time to move on. It's not like they made the Bills' defense a great one, once Pat and Sam moved on.

[John Doe]

Sometimes perceptions lag reality. Nevertheless, what is it about that play that suggests that Ellison is anything other than a LB worthy of concern?


Last year as a Rookie, he missed the OTAs and a portion of triaining camp.

He was thrown into the mix in his first game against New England and appeared to play fairly well.

He appeared to play smart football.

He appears to be athletic - very quick.

He had streaches where he played extemely well.

He appears to be extremely motivated.

This leads me to believe that, with a full years experience and another full preseason, he will play even better - not worse.

I am not concerned about his play this year.

[mayotm]

um, if you look at the stats Wys just posted, he DIDN'T make plays.

A lot of people on this board focus in on one or two big plays from an entire season and use those plays alone as the basis for an opinion.Well hell, good enough for me. If you and the "Wysman" don't think Ellison made plays, then he must not have. Also, if you two experts don't think he's going to be a player, it must be so. Silly me, I actually thought he played fairly well for a rookie and thought he might get better. Thanks so much for clearing things up.

[Goobylal]

Again, if the Bills thought there was a problem at WLB, they would have signed someone in FA or drafted someone.

[OpIv37]

Well hell, good enough for me. If you and the "Wysman" don't think Ellison made plays, then he must not have. Also, if you two experts don't think he's going to be a player, it must be so. Silly me, I actually thought he played fairly well for a rookie and thought he might get better. Thanks so much for clearing things up.

he may get better, he may not. But expecting the 28th ranked run D to be good enough by player improvement alone without adding any new talent is asinine.

Wys' stats show that Ellison was average at best. There is nothing to suggest he's a replacement for Takeo. Post-injury Takeo, maybe, but post-injury Takeo wasn't good enough last year either. We need a replacement for pre-injury Takeo. Is Keith Ellison that guy? It's not impossible, but it's not likely.

[Wys Guy]

Last year as a Rookie, he missed the OTAs and a portion of triaining camp.

He was thrown into the mix in his first game against New England and appeared to play fairly well.

He appeared to play smart football.

He appears to be athletic - very quick.

He had streaches where he played extemely well.

He appears to be extremely motivated.

This leads me to believe that, with a full years experience and another full preseason, he will play even better - not worse.

I am not concerned about his play this year.

He also didn't make any big plays or play even remotely play with any sort of particular intensity, apart from what you may say. His tackles, much as with many other defenders, were well downfield and did not "stop" anything. Our D was weak last year and he didn't prove that he brought anything special to the table.

Either way, you may be totally correct. And I hope you are! But at this point it is mere conjecture and speculation. It is. Based on all the evidence, I will make at least an equally qualified assessment that I didn't see anything beyond the extremely ordinary for backups and that's what I expect from him in the future. My track record is pretty good. ;)

[Wys Guy]

http://www.garden-water-fountains.com/manneken_pis_boy_peeing_urinating_outdoor_garden_water_fountain_pond_med.jpg



http://webzoom.freewebs.com/sealionscouts/Parade2.JPG


ROFLMAO!!!

Love the first and third pics!

[Goobylal]

Crowell is the replacement for Spikes. Spikes played SLB the past 2 years and that's where Crowell will be playing.

[John Doe]

He also didn't ....even remotely play with any sort of particular intensity

It looked to me that he played with plenty of intensity.


He also didn't make any big plays

Look at the film of the second Miami game. You are dead wrong.

[raphael120]

So why didn't the Bills bring in a FA, or draft someone, to replace Ellison? Are you guys saying you know more than the Bills about their team? Or is this based on the fact that you predicted some players or coaches in the past would fail?


Why didnt they bring in huge talent on the o-line last year? Becase the money wasnt there. We dont have enough room to take care of every position. hence why we're still with the same Wr core last year, and same DT rotation as last year.

[raphael120]

It looked to me that he played with plenty of intensity.



Look at the film of the second Miami game. You are dead wrong.

Intensity dont mean squat if it aint paired with talent and football smarts.

[ublinkwescore]

um, if you look at the stats Wys just posted, he DIDN'T make plays.

A lot of people on this board focus in on one or two big plays from an entire season and use those plays alone as the basis for an opinion.

didn't make plays???

are you out of your mind - he may not have shown up in some games as big as he did others, but he made plays in most of the ones that I'd seen - including tackles for short or non-gains.

Finishing off tackles for others is just as important as making the tackle yourself.

Maybe this year he'll be a little better at diagnosing plays, and he'll be making a lot of tackles instead of helping others finish theirs off.

[ublinkwescore]

He also didn't make any big plays or play even remotely play with any sort of particular intensity, apart from what you may say. His tackles, much as with many other defenders, were well downfield and did not "stop" anything. Our D was weak last year and he didn't prove that he brought anything special to the table.

Either way, you may be totally correct. And I hope you are! But at this point it is mere conjecture and speculation. It is. Based on all the evidence, I will make at least an equally qualified assessment that I didn't see anything beyond the extremely ordinary for backups and that's what I expect from him in the future. My track record is pretty good. ;)

Tackles for losses aren't big plays huh?

Because he had at least two of them that I saw in the vids.

[John Doe]

Intensity dont mean squat if it aint paired with talent and football smarts.

I agree. Its a good thing that Ellison has plenty of both.

[madness]

Last year as a Rookie, he missed the OTAs and a portion of triaining camp.

He was thrown into the mix in his first game against New England and appeared to play fairly well.

He appeared to play smart football.

He appears to be athletic - very quick.

He had streaches where he played extemely well.

He appears to be extremely motivated.

This leads me to believe that, with a full years experience and another full preseason, he will play even better - not worse.

I am not concerned about his play this year.

I'm not either. He's very focused on becoming a better football player and came into camp a little heavier. He's also one of the smartest players on the team and by far our best coverage LB out the group. (He played both safety and LB in college) His speed, smarts, athleticism and cover skills seemed to put him in a good position to make plays last year and I have no doubt he'll even be better with another year under his belt.

This guy has been the biggest surprise of last year's draft class. Fletcher also gave him props on how he was able to make the move from weak to strong almost effortlessly.



Perhaps no one has been a bigger surprise however, than linebacker Keith Ellisonhttp://www.buffalobills.com/images/relatedicon.gif (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=4499#). The sixth-round pick was expected to be a solid special teams contributor in his first season, but he quickly found himself lining up on the weak side at linebacker in Week One.
After Takeo Spikes suffered his hamstring injury in the first half of the season opener, Angelo Crowellhttp://www.buffalobills.com/images/relatedicon.gif (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=4499#) took his spot on the strong side and Ellison stepped in on the weak side. His head was swimming, but he wasn't getting undressed by Tom Brady and the Patriots' offense and finished with eight tackles. Since then Ellison has made four starts, with his greatest challenge last week. Already starting for an injured Angelo Crowell on the weak side, Ellison had to flip over to the strong side when Spikes left the game with knee and ankle injuries.
"It's phenomenal what Keith did because he got no reps at the strong side linebacker position," said London Fletcher. "All his reps were on the weak side and there are differences between those two positions in terms of run fits and he did a great job of adjusting."
Ellison admits if he had to make that switch early in the season he may have been in trouble, but late in the year he doesn't even feel like a rookie anymore.
"I have a better understanding of the defense and my role in it and what they want me to do out there," he said. "Trying to adjust to the NFL game and learn a new system is tough early, but after 14 weeks you're a lot more comfortable out there."
For a sixth-round pick to provide quality play in four starts and several relief appearances as a rookie, at such an important playmaking position, has been huge.
"I think Keith Ellison has been the surprise of the class," said Fewell. "We thought he was a good player. We thought he was a smart player, but we didn't know how smart he was. He's the diamond in the rough in this draft class because he's come in and played SAM linebacker, he's play WILL and he's played nickel WILL. The kid has done a remarkable job."

[Jan Reimers]

Because to some Zoners, anyone who is young and not an immediate All-Pro sucks, and will always suck.

To them, great players spring from their college's loins as full fledged stars, or they are destined to fail.

[OpIv37]

Because to some Zoners, anyone who is young and not an immediate All-Pro sucks, and will always suck.

To them, great players spring from their college's loins as full fledged stars, or they are destined to fail.

and to some zoners, a D that was 28th in run D and 24th in turnovers and lost 3 starters is going to get better without adding any talent because of the assumption that all young guys improve and sophomore slumps don't exist.

[Kelly The Dog]

Yeah, and Miami, Houston, and Jax had such tremendous showings in the playoffs too. ;)

Nevertheless, the Jets game in which you said he made a lot of plays in if I read the above correctly, and as the only decently balanced offensive team that the Bills played that Ellison logged any significant stats in. So let's take a look at what kind of an impact he made via his tackles.

1st: Assisted tackle w/ Spikes, Cedric Houston on a gain of 5
2nd: Assisted w/ Wire on a Houston gain of 7
3rd: Miller 33 yard KO Return
4th: Pennington 4-yard scramble
5th: Assisted with Fletcher, Houston for 6 yards
6th: Assisted with Anderson, Houston for no gain
7th: Leon Washington, 4 yard pass play
8th: Assisted w/ Youboty, TE Baker on a 10 yard pass play
9th: 4 yard pass play to Washington

Sometimes perceptions lag reality. Nevertheless, what is it about that play that suggests that Ellison is anything other than a LB worthy of concern?

After the 33 yard KO return, his involvement in tackles allowed an average of 5.0 yards per play. For a member of the secondary that might work, but not for a member of the front 7. There isn't one play for a loss in there.
Your list is completely out of context, too. How about, say, the last tackle of 4 yards came on 3-5 late in the game and the Jets turned the ball over on downs the next play sealing the Bills win. Or that three of his other six tackles on regular downs were 5 yards on 2-10, 7 yards on 2-10 and 4 yards on 2-8, which are all good plays. That only one tackle he made resulted in a first down (and that was a 2-1). Or that the Jets scored 13 points total and only 3 since the time in quarter 2 that Spikes got hurt and Ellison played the majority of the game. Giving up 4 yards on 1-10 in a two-minute drill, which he also did, is a lot different that 4 yards in other circumstances. He had a very good game, both watching it and looking at the stats. I suppose cherry picking stats might show he had an average game.

[Jan Reimers]

and to some zoners, a D that was 28th in run D and 24th in turnovers and lost 3 starters is going to get better without adding any talent because of the assumption that all young guys improve and sophomore slumps don't exist.
Fletch and Spikes were part of the problem, not the solution. I simply think that McCargo, Williams, Ellison, Posluszny, Whitner, Simpson and perhaps another youngster or two (Youboty, DiGiorgio, Wendling?) WILL be part of the solution.

To paraphrase Branch Rickey, we finished 28th against the run with Spikes and Fletcher, we can finish 28th without them. But I think - I don't KNOW, because I'm not omniscient like you - that we will be BETTER defensively this year.

It was tough when we let Talley and Bruce and a lot of other veterans go, too. But how do you improve without an infusion of good, talented YOUNG players?

[OpIv37]

Fletch and Spikes were part of the problem, not the solution. I simply think that McCargo, Williams, Ellison, Posluszny, Whitner, Simpson and perhaps another youngster or two (Youboty, DiGiorgio, Wendling?) WILL be part of the solution.

To paraphrase Branch Rickey, we finished 28th against the run with Spikes and Fletcher, we can finish 28th without them. But I think - I don't KNOW, because I'm not omniscient like you - that we will be BETTER defensively this year.

It was tough when we let Talley and Bruce and a lot of other veterans go, too. But how do you improve without an infusion of good, talented YOUNG players?

What you're forgetting is that DiG and Ellison were on the field a lot last year and contributed to that 28th ranked D as well.

When we let Talley and Bruce go we brought in young talent, but we also didn't try to replace the ENTIRE D at the same time. We also had some key FA's around that time- Spielman and Paup come to mind. We don't have that this year.

[John Doe]

Your list is completely out of context, too. How about, say, the last tackle of 4 yards came on 3-5 late in the game and the Jets turned the ball over on downs the next play sealing the Bills win. Or that three of his other six tackles on regular downs were 5 yards on 2-10, 7 yards on 2-10 and 4 yards on 2-8, which are all good plays. That only one tackle he made resulted in a first down (and that was a 2-1). Or that the Jets scored 13 points total and only 3 since the time in quarter 2 that Spikes got hurt and Ellison played the majority of the game. Giving up 4 yards on 1-10 in a two-minute drill, which he also did, is a lot different that 4 yards in other circumstances. He had a very good game, both watching it and looking at the stats. I suppose cherry picking stats might show he had an average game.

Good Analysis.