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HHURRICANE
07-31-2007, 09:21 PM
Had a friend call me and tell me that Ronnie Brown is getting abused in camp. Anybody here anything about this?

The Spaz
07-31-2007, 09:24 PM
I read an article that talked about how bad in general Miam's offense has been. I wish I would have posted the link then but didn't want to start ripping the fish yet until after camps...lol.

Carlton Bailey
07-31-2007, 09:28 PM
I read something today that said Brown's taking a beating at camp and that Miami wants to curb the amount of contact he takes. I wish I could remember from where...

Bling
07-31-2007, 09:32 PM
I heard the same thing this time last year. I think Miami can expect out of Ronnie what they've got the last two years. They can also expect the same O-line they've had the last two years. Whether you think Ronnie has sucked the last two years is your opinion. I personally think he's a great asset to the team. If he goes 16 straight games, he'll easily break 1250, probably 1300.

HHURRICANE
07-31-2007, 09:32 PM
I read something today that said Brown's taking a beating at camp and that Miami wants to curb the amount of contact he takes. I wish I could remember from where...

Love to see it! Post it if you find it.

HHURRICANE
07-31-2007, 09:34 PM
I heard the same thing this time last year. I think Miami can expect out of Ronnie what they've got the last two years. They can also expect the same O-line they've had the last two years. Whether you think Ronnie has sucked the last two years is your opinion. I personally think he's a great asset to the team. If he goes 16 straight games, he'll easily break 1250, probably 1300.

In fairness he hasn't sucked but he has been somewhat of a disppointment. Wasn't he the #2 overall pick?

Bling
07-31-2007, 09:34 PM
I really don't know what you guys are talking about. The only thing they're talking about where I post is that Ronnie complained of cramps. If you guys can post a link that Ronnie is looking bad in practice, I'd love to read it.

Bling
07-31-2007, 09:37 PM
In fairness he hasn't sucked but he has been somewhat of a disppointment. Wasn't he the #2 overall pick?

It was also the worst draft since I can remember. Miami got screwed.

The top 5 picks if I remember correctly were:
Alex Smith
Ronnie Brown
Braylon Edwards
Carnell Williams
Cedric Benson

IMO, the best out of the bunch is Ronnie with Cadillac a close second. Now if you want to say at 2 overall, he's a bit of a bust, I will definitely agree. Barely beat a thousand last year. But I guess if you compare the draft class as a whole, I don't think he's bad. We'll see.

HHURRICANE
07-31-2007, 09:38 PM
I really don't know what you guys are talking about. The only thing they're talking about where I post is that Ronnie complained of cramps. If you guys can post a link that Ronnie is looking bad in practice, I'd love to read it.

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By Edgar Thompson (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/palmbeach/miamidolphins/entries/2007/07/31/bubble_bound.html#postcomment) | Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 06:37 PM

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• Another tough start for Ronnie Brown, who was knocked back 4 yards by 340-pound DT Keith Traylor on the first play of the middle drill Sunday.
Tuesday, S Renaldo Hill flattened Brown on his first carry of the drill. That might have been the biggest hit of the camp.

Bling
07-31-2007, 09:39 PM
What I'm hearing is that John Beck looks like crap. Throwing INTs left and right.

Bling
07-31-2007, 09:41 PM
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By Edgar Thompson (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/palmbeach/miamidolphins/entries/2007/07/31/bubble_bound.html#postcomment) | Tuesday, July 31, 2007, 06:37 PM

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• Another tough start for Ronnie Brown, who was knocked back 4 yards by 340-pound DT Keith Traylor on the first play of the middle drill Sunday.
Tuesday, S Renaldo Hill flattened Brown on his first carry of the drill. That might have been the biggest hit of the camp.

That doesn't sound too good. With 5 new starters on offense (3 returning players all at different positions, 1 rookie and possibly another), this might be a long year.

Gunzlingr
07-31-2007, 09:43 PM
I read somewhere that Sammy Morris is the best back on the Phins. :idunno:

Bling
07-31-2007, 09:45 PM
I read somewhere that Sammy Morris is the best back on the Phins. :idunno:

I read somewhere that he got signed by the Pats during FA. Where have you been, Gunz?!

HAMMER
07-31-2007, 09:50 PM
I read somewhere that he got signed by the Pats during FA. Where have you been, Gunz?!
:rofl: It's always funny when the bagger becomes the baggee.

ParanoidAndroid
07-31-2007, 09:59 PM
It was also the worst draft since I can remember. Miami got screwed.

The top 5 picks if I remember correctly were:
Alex Smith
Ronnie Brown
Braylon Edwards
Carnell Williams
Cedric Benson

IMO, the best out of the bunch is Ronnie with Cadillac a close second. Now if you want to say at 2 overall, he's a bit of a bust, I will definitely agree. Barely beat a thousand last year. But I guess if you compare the draft class as a whole, I don't think he's bad. We'll see.

I think the jury is still out on all 5 of those players, especially Smith and Edwards. Smith seems to be coming along and Edwards hasn't been in a very good situation in Cleveland. I also think that if Miami had some consistent QB play and a better O-line, Brown could be very good.
Williams had a phenomenal first half of his rookie season, but he's not been very lucky at avoiding injury. Benson has had a run of bad luck and this is his year to prove himself.

kgun12
07-31-2007, 10:14 PM
I heard the same thing this time last year. I think Miami can expect out of Ronnie what they've got the last two years. They can also expect the same O-line they've had the last two years. Whether you think Ronnie has sucked the last two years is your opinion. I personally think he's a great asset to the team. If he goes 16 straight games, he'll easily break 1250, probably 1300.

I agree with you Bling! If he had any Oline at all, he would gain a lot more yads. I think him getting beat up last year is a by product of the crapping line! As a bills fan I hope they don't fix it anytime soon!!!

Confused
07-31-2007, 10:21 PM
In fairness he hasn't sucked but he has been somewhat of a disppointment. Wasn't he the #2 overall pick?
yeah, they flopped on cadilac. it may have not have helped much, but cadilac is the better rb.

Confused
07-31-2007, 10:23 PM
Lynch blows 'em both awy tho

BidsJr
07-31-2007, 10:44 PM
I really don't know what you guys are talking about. The only thing they're talking about where I post is that Ronnie complained of cramps. If you guys can post a link that Ronnie is looking bad in practice, I'd love to read it.


My wife tells me that Midol is good for that. WTF is up with the Fin trainers?

evol4276
07-31-2007, 11:04 PM
thats no good, rivals or not i like ronnie :(

!Papacrunk!
07-31-2007, 11:13 PM
The grind hit Brown like it meant to knock him out.
Brown hit back.
HURTS SO GOOD (http://www.miamiherald.com/616/story/187689.html)
''I was hurting out there, man,'' he said afterward -- but with a wide smile, one of those ones that looks like it might percolate into a giggle at any moment.
One of those bring-it-on smiles.


Will a quality blocking fullback in Cory Schlesinger and the ingenuity of Cameron's quick-hit attack help Brown overcome what seems a so-so offensive line?
Green already has counseled Brown about not being overwhelmed by the Tomlinson factor, and Brown is saying all the right things for now. About the shadows that have fed him fuel, about the doubters who have pushed him. He mentions how Rudi Johnson was the star when he first arrived at Auburn, and later how it was Cadillac Williams. He mentions sharing time then with Ricky Williams in Miami.
Now all he has to be is this team's Tomlinson?
''For my name and his name to be in the same sentence is motivation for me,'' Brown said. ``I know my workload is going to be turned up and that expectations are going to be pretty high. I am ready to carry the load.''
All that is easy to say. But Brown's actions have impressed, too


Ask veteran defensive lineman Vonnie Holliday who he sees working the hardest of any teammate.
''Ronnie Brown, by far,'' he replies.

Here's a entertaining read about Schlessinger the guy paving the way for Brown: (http://www.miamiherald.com/616/story/188706.html)


Unbent. Unhazed. And unknowing that it just got screwed (literally) onto the helmet of the most facemask-abusing player in the Dolphins locker room -- and maybe even the NFL.
''I'm going to go through at least one a game,'' Schlesinger said. ``Sometimes, I go through two a game. They'll switch them out at halftime. They just have to do it pretty fast because those get smashed pretty good. They even carry extra helmets for me.''
No joke, Schlesinger figures he has run through more than 200 facemasks during the past 12 seasons with the Detroit Lions. After the Dolphins signed Schlesinger as a free agent this offseason, an equipment manager from the Lions actually called with a warning.
As a result, Miami equipment manager Joe Cimino ordered more than double the normal amount of facemasks (the same style used by defensive tackle Keith Traylor).


Schlesinger even says bent facemasks actually might not be a bad thing, considering the alternative of plowing through a battle at the line of scrimmage. Reason being, the best blockers keep their heads up at impact.
''When you start having marks on the top of your helmet, that's not a good thing,'' he says. ``If you see what you're hitting, and you're bending your facemask, that's perfect.''
Perfect for his neck. And potentially perfect for running back Ronnie Brown. Perhaps the biggest beneficiary of Schlesinger's hard-nosed mentality, Brown will have a weapon in front of him that he hasn't had in his first two years in Miami.

PECKERWOOD
07-31-2007, 11:35 PM
Ronnie Brown is good, it's their OL that sucks, imho.

!Papacrunk!
07-31-2007, 11:35 PM
What I'm hearing is that John Beck looks like crap. Throwing INTs left and right.
so what have you been reading man? true Beck has thrown some INTs but he's actually been very sharp and accurate, especially with the deep ball. So far he's had a good connection with Reed and has started to develop a good relationship with Ginn: (http://www.miamiherald.com/1191/story/188122.html)

Undoubtedly the highlight of a dull morning workout consisting mostly of special-team work was rookie quarterback John Beck throwing a gorgeous 50-yard pass to rookie receiver Ted Ginn in the end zone...

• While the team was going through an 11-on-11 running drill at one end of the field, two quarterbacks at a time conducted a 20-yard passing drill at the other end. With one-on-one coverage and no linemen, Beck looked particularly impressive on multiple throws.
• Beck threw a 20-yard dart into the end zone to Ginn, which was the second nice connection between the two during the day. In the morning session, Beck also hit Ginn on a 50-yard throw with double coverage.
• Beck also looks considerably comfortable passing to wide receiver Kerry Reed. Reed, an undrafted rookie who grew up in Homestead, has shown some nice hands so far during camp. He had one particularly nice catch as he ran across the middle of the end zone, snagging Beck's crisp pass at full speed.

!Papacrunk!
07-31-2007, 11:37 PM
Ronnie Brown is good, it's their OL that sucks, imho.

the defense wasn't too shabby last year either, so at least it's not like he's struggling against some porous unit

LtFinFan66
08-01-2007, 03:39 AM
What I'm hearing is that John Beck looks like crap. Throwing INTs left and right.You clearly read different stuff than I read.

Dolphanzeke
08-01-2007, 12:03 PM
You clearly read different stuff than I read.No Kidding all Ive read from the herald/post/sentinel have been glowing reports on accuracy and command even the Finheaven camp reporters are saying good things...strange...must be some alternate rivals universe.

Mudflap1
08-01-2007, 12:58 PM
The Dolphins offensive line is HORRIBLE! You can't lay all the blame on Ronnie Brown or even Trent Green for that matter. They're going to have no protection!

Jon

Bling
08-01-2007, 01:09 PM
so what have you been reading man? true Beck has thrown some INTs but he's actually been very sharp and accurate, especially with the deep ball. So far he's had a good connection with Reed and has started to develop a good relationship with Ginn: (http://www.miamiherald.com/1191/story/188122.html)

I read what Frosty posted, thank you very much.

http://www.phinzmania.com/forum/index.php?topic=16196.0

duhbilz
08-01-2007, 01:10 PM
The Dolphins offensive line is HORRIBLE! You can't lay all the blame on Ronnie Brown or even Trent Green for that matter. They're going to have no protection!

Jon

From week 5 to week 16 the Dolphins Oline gave up 1.6 sacks a game, good enough to finish 6th best in the league. They gave up less total sacks then Buffalo even after giving up 21 sacks in the first 4 games and R.Brown had over a 4 YPC. AVG. That hardly constitues a "Horrible Oline". It may be now, but it wasn't horrible last year, once Daunte was replaced

Bling
08-01-2007, 01:12 PM
You clearly read different stuff than I read.


The article on July 30 says


A John Beck pass was tipped and turned into a Renaldo Hill interception. Another deflected pass from Gibran Hamdan found linebacker Channing Crowder. Another Beck pass intended for wide receiver Az-Zahir Hakim was broken up with a nice leap from Michael Lehan.

Cam Cameron said after practice that ball-control was a concern.


Don't shoot the messenger. It's only been what 5 days? I'm not calling him out, I'm reporting what I'm reading.

Gunzlingr
08-01-2007, 01:12 PM
I read somewhere that Sammy Morris is the best back on the Phins. :idunno:

Obviously the magazine I read that in was out dated :couch:

Mudflap1
08-01-2007, 02:11 PM
From week 5 to week 16 the Dolphins Oline gave up 1.6 sacks a game, good enough to finish 6th best in the league. They gave up less total sacks then Buffalo even after giving up 21 sacks in the first 4 games and R.Brown had over a 4 YPC. AVG. That hardly constitues a "Horrible Oline". It may be now, but it wasn't horrible last year, once Daunte was replaced

Ok, you're right, the Dolphins' offensive line is f'n stacked. Now when Green gets 6 concussions this season and Ronnie Brown gets 900 yards in like 11 games because of injury, we know who not to blame...

Jon

duhbilz
08-01-2007, 02:30 PM
Ok, you're right, the Dolphins' offensive line is f'n stacked. Now when Green gets 6 concussions this season and Ronnie Brown gets 900 yards in like 11 games because of injury, we know who not to blame...

Jon

Just pointing out a little info/facts, I didn't realize it would be offensive..

ublinkwescore
08-01-2007, 02:49 PM
this idiot raider fan at work who is always bashing Losman, and thinks he knows it all drafted Ronnie Brown for his fantasy league - I can't wait to show this "know it all" up.

I know more than he does, he's just one of those people who never shuts up, and keeps trying to make the same point time after time - even though you've already defeated his point.

the Bears fan and Cowboys fan at work both call him my ***** because of how many times I've proven what a moron he is when it comes to football.

Mudflap1
08-01-2007, 04:29 PM
Just pointing out a little info/facts, I didn't realize it would be offensive..

It's not offensive, their line sucks.

Jon

duhbilz
08-01-2007, 07:56 PM
It's not offensive, their line sucks.

Jon

Maybe so.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 10:13 AM
The Dolphins offensive line is HORRIBLE! You can't lay all the blame on Ronnie Brown or even Trent Green for that matter. They're going to have no protection!

Jon

Their offensive line was better than the Bills OL last season. Fewer sacks, better YPC by the RBs. Glass houses, glass houses......

Mudflap1
08-02-2007, 11:10 AM
What was your record last year?

We'll see who's line is better this year also.

Dolphin fans have no room to talk smack whatsoever at this point, especially on a Bills board. Just take it like a man!

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 11:25 AM
What was your record last year?

We'll see who's line is better this year also.

Dolphin fans have no room to talk smack whatsoever at this point, especially on a Bills board. Just take it like a man!

Jon

Smack from a Bills fan. Too funny. The Fins were bad last season and so were the Bills. A Bills board is one of the few places that a Fins fan can talk smack.

Get back to me the next time the Bills have a decade that doesn't include more losing seasons than winning seasons. (Hint, it won't be this decade)

Dr. Lecter
08-02-2007, 11:28 AM
The Bills addressed their O-line issues this offseason. Whether it works or not remains to be seen but they did attempt to fix the line.

And, in the 2nd half of the season, the Bills had a better line than the Fish.

dolphan117
08-02-2007, 11:43 AM
Right now the D is just dominating the offense in general.... But lets remember that the D was one of the best in the league last year and is staying the same while the offense is learning a new scheme... Plus Shelton and Hadnot (who will probably be our starting RT and RG) are working with the second team as the coaching staff wants them to help with the younger guys on that unit.

The O-line is just not doing a lot right now and because of it Ronnie isn't being given much room to run which has lead to a little hesitation. Several writers though have pointed out that he is 10 pounds lighter then he was last year and is in the best shape ever as a Dolphin.

The biggest problem I see here isn't Ronnie Brown, he will be fine.... The concern to me is the offensive line, and only time will tell how well they shape up.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 01:25 PM
The Bills addressed their O-line issues this offseason. Whether it works or not remains to be seen but they did attempt to fix the line.

And, in the 2nd half of the season, the Bills had a better line than the Fish.

The Fins are making an attempt also. There will be at least two new starters on the OL. All 5 positions will likely have different starters next season. Both teams have something to prove on the OL.

Here is a site that attempts to rank various positions. Their OL ranking last season puts the Fins OL ahead of the Bills OL.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2006.php

Mudflap1
08-02-2007, 01:32 PM
Smack from a Bills fan. Too funny. The Fins were bad last season and so were the Bills. A Bills board is one of the few places that a Fins fan can talk smack.

Get back to me the next time the Bills have a decade that doesn't include more losing seasons than winning seasons. (Hint, it won't be this decade)

You must have a pretty exciting life to go onto a RIVAL'S message board (not a message board of your own team) and try to spam that message board's fans with propaganda about your lousy team that has no merit.

Keep trolling superstar...

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 01:53 PM
You must have a pretty exciting life to go onto a RIVAL'S message board (not a message board of your own team) and try to spam that message board's fans with propaganda about your lousy team that has no merit.

Keep trolling superstar...

Jon

Was it me that created a thread about a Dolphin's player?

I'm sorry, do you want to just huddle together with other Bills fans and giggle while making baseless comments about the Fins? Does that make you feel better. Sad, very sad.

I know there are plenty of Bills fans on this site (and Fins sites as well) that enjoy a heathly debate about the merits and problems of both teams. If you prefer to stay out of those discussions, be my guest.

Mudflap1
08-02-2007, 02:02 PM
Was it me that created a thread about a Dolphin's player?

I'm sorry, do you want to just huddle together with other Bills fans and giggle while making baseless comments about the Fins? Does that make you feel better. Sad, very sad.

I know there are plenty of Bills fans on this site (and Fins sites as well) that enjoy a heathly debate about the merits and problems of both teams. If you prefer to stay out of those discussions, be my guest.

Give me an f'n break...

What should be sad for you is that your team hasn't been relevant in the NFL since when? 1984, maybe 1986? And you're wasting your time on a BUFFALO BILLS message board being argumentative and insulting.

Don't play the holier-than-thou card. Your team sucks. Our team sucks too, but the difference is you have a lame duck coach who couldn't win in college and had a stacked team in San Diego, which is the only reason he was the Dolphins' choice (like, sixth choice) to be head coach. You also have a very weak offensive line that got weaker in the offseason as opposed to (likely) stronger for the Bills. That's all. Your defense is good, but aging. Your quarterback used to be good, but will probably come to die in South Florida since he's 37 years old and playing behind a crappy offensive line where you actually have a decent back, but won't be able to effectively establish the running game and he will be throwing for his life and have a heavy pass rush on him all season (due to a crappy offensive line).

But if you think your **** doesn't stink, go ahead and talk smack. We'll see where Miami is at in January. Until then, keep spending your days littering a BUFFALO BILLS message board.

Jon

Bling
08-02-2007, 02:17 PM
Buffalo's O-line is overrated, though Mudflap.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 02:17 PM
Give me an f'n break...

What should be sad for you is that your team hasn't been relevant in the NFL since when? 1984, maybe 1986? And you're wasting your time on a BUFFALO BILLS message board being argumentative and insulting.

Don't play the holier-than-thou card. Your team sucks. Our team sucks too, but the difference is you have a lame duck coach who couldn't win in college and had a stacked team in San Diego, which is the only reason he was the Dolphins' choice (like, sixth choice) to be head coach. You also have a very weak offensive line that got weaker in the offseason as opposed to (likely) stronger for the Bills. That's all. Your defense is good, but aging. Your quarterback used to be good, but will probably come to die in South Florida since he's 37 years old and playing behind a crappy offensive line where you actually have a decent back, but won't be able to effectively establish the running game and he will be throwing for his life and have a heavy pass rush on him all season (due to a crappy offensive line).

But if you think your **** doesn't stink, go ahead and talk smack. We'll see where Miami is at in January. Until then, keep spending your days littering a BUFFALO BILLS message board.

Jon

Are you just trying to start crap?

Lame duck coach? WTF? Do you even know what the term means? Usually its used to signify a coach that is in the last year of his contract with no extension in sight. It usually means that players don't respect him because his is likely gone after the season. This is Cameron's first season. BTW, your coach's record is nothing to brag about.

IMO, the Bills OL was worse than the Fins last season. You keep claiming that the Fins QB will have no protection, but the Bills GAVE UP MORE SACKS LAST SEASON. I provided a link to back up my opinion. You have just talked smack.

I love how the off-season moves by the Bill on the OL automatically make them better but the moves by the Fins make them worse. Do I need to remind you about Tuten Reyes? You should be concerned about your GM's ability to judge OL talent.

BTW:

2006 7-9-0
2005 5-11-0
2004 9-7-0
2003 6-10-0
2002 8-8-0
2001 3-13-0
2000 8-8-0

PECKERWOOD
08-02-2007, 02:19 PM
Smack from a Bills fan. Too funny. The Fins were bad last season and so were the Bills. A Bills board is one of the few places that a Fins fan can talk smack.

Get back to me the next time the Bills have a decade that doesn't include more losing seasons than winning seasons. (Hint, it won't be this decade)

Get at me once the Bills sweep the phins two straight seasons in a row.

ParanoidAndroid
08-02-2007, 02:23 PM
Buffalo's O-line is overrated, though Mudflap.

How can it be overrated when all people are saying is that it should be improved with a couple free-agent additions? Saying it will be better is not a stretch of the immagination by any means.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 02:24 PM
Get at me once the Bills sweep the phins two straight seasons in a row.

Typical Bills fan.

Football fan - "Hey you went 2-14 this year. Doesn't that suck?"

Bills fan - "No, its great. We beat the Fins twice."

BTW. The Fins beat the Fins in the second game in 2005. If you are going to talk smack, at least be accurate.

mchurchfie
08-02-2007, 02:30 PM
Both teams O-Lines have A LOT to prove. Neither have been too stellar over the lat few years.

Mudflap1
08-02-2007, 02:43 PM
Are you just trying to start crap?

Lame duck coach? WTF? Do you even know what the term means? Usually its used to signify a coach that is in the last year of his contract with no extension in sight. It usually means that players don't respect him because his is likely gone after the season. This is Cameron's first season. BTW, your coach's record is nothing to brag about.

IMO, the Bills OL was worse than the Fins last season. You keep claiming that the Fins QB will have no protection, but the Bills GAVE UP MORE SACKS LAST SEASON. I provided a link to back up my opinion. You have just talked smack.

I love how the off-season moves by the Bill on the OL automatically make them better but the moves by the Fins make them worse. Do I need to remind you about Tuten Reyes? You should be concerned about your GM's ability to judge OL talent.

BTW:

2006 7-9-0
2005 5-11-0
2004 9-7-0
2003 6-10-0
2002 8-8-0
2001 3-13-0
2000 8-8-0

Yes, I'm the one starting crap, because I'm the one that went onto some other team's message board and starting calling out that team's fans and saying they don't know what they are talking about. Genius.

Call Cam Cameron whatever you want. I call him fired within three years, probably sooner. Where has he ever won as a head coach? You can talk smack about Jauron all you want, at least he's got a 13-3 season to hang his hat on.

I never said the Bills offensive line is great. They made some additions where we as fans are cautiously optimistic that they'll be improvements. Dockery was one of the more sought-after free agents. Peters is an up-and-coming LT by most accounts. What has Miami done? Who do they have that's worth bragging about up front?

Once again, you've just got your panties in a bunch because your team hasn't been relevant in the NFL in 20 years. Granted, Buffalo hasn't been tearing it up lately, but I like where they are headed. The whole point here is you (a fan of an NFL irrelevant) has no right to come talk smack and speak as if your word is gospel on another team's message board, when it's arguable that your team is significantly worse off. If I came onto the Dolphins' bath house message board and talked smack about how Buffalo is so superior to Miami in certain areas, I'd expect the same treatment. The only difference is your fans have alternative jerseys that are pink, so frankly we're not that intimidated about all that up here. Frankly, I have no interest in going to www.finbathhouse.com or whatever it's called, just like I don't know why you would have so much interest in coming over to the Billszone. I would think you'd have better things to do with your time, and certainly better things to do than be argumentative and offensive. But I guess that's what Dolphins' fans do, since it sure hasn't been attending the home games for all of these years.

See ya in January Chicken-of-the-Sea...

Jon

Bling
08-02-2007, 02:44 PM
Get at me once the Bills sweep the phins two straight seasons in a row.

What are you talking about? The Bills haven't sweeped the Phins two years in a row, so why are you insulting your own team?

Mudflap1
08-02-2007, 02:46 PM
What are you talking about? The Bills haven't sweeped the Phins two years in a row, so why are you insulting your own team?

Get yer heads out of the ham sandwiches down there in Miami. He's saying we're sweeping you again this year, which makes two years in a row!!!

Jon

Mudflap1
08-02-2007, 02:49 PM
By the way, isn't the best test of who has the better offensive line the head-to-head test? Last time I checked you guys really pushed us around last season, really showed us a thing or two. What was the score and the statline of that game in December?

Jon

ParanoidAndroid
08-02-2007, 02:57 PM
Give me an f'n break...

What should be sad for you is that your team hasn't been relevant in the NFL since when? 1984, maybe 1986? And you're wasting your time on a BUFFALO BILLS message board being argumentative and insulting.

Don't play the holier-than-thou card. Your team sucks. Our team sucks too, but the difference is you have a lame duck coach who couldn't win in college and had a stacked team in San Diego, which is the only reason he was the Dolphins' choice (like, sixth choice) to be head coach. You also have a very weak offensive line that got weaker in the offseason as opposed to (likely) stronger for the Bills. That's all. Your defense is good, but aging. Your quarterback used to be good, but will probably come to die in South Florida since he's 37 years old and playing behind a crappy offensive line where you actually have a decent back, but won't be able to effectively establish the running game and he will be throwing for his life and have a heavy pass rush on him all season (due to a crappy offensive line).

But if you think your **** doesn't stink, go ahead and talk smack. We'll see where Miami is at in January. Until then, keep spending your days littering a BUFFALO BILLS message board.

Jon

I wouldn't take the debate back in history, Mudflap.....you'll lose. If you keep it in the here and now, the Bills are likely the better team.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 03:01 PM
Yes, I'm the one starting crap, because I'm the one that went onto some other team's message board and starting calling out that team's fans and saying they don't know what they are talking about. Genius.

Get a grip. I merely pointed out that the Fins OL gave up fewer sacks and led their top RB to a higher YPC average than the Bills OL last season. Those are facts. Just because you don't like them, doesn't make them untrue.


Call Cam Cameron whatever you want. I call him fired within three years, probably sooner. Where has he ever won as a head coach? You can talk smack about Jauron all you want, at least he's got a 13-3 season to hang his hat on.

One 13-3 season to go with 6-10, 5-11, 4-12, and two 7-9 seasons. Impressive.


I never said the Bills offensive line is great. They made some additions where we as fans are cautiously optimistic that they'll be improvements. Dockery was one of the more sought-after free agents. Peters is an up-and-coming LT by most accounts. What has Miami done? Who do they have that's worth bragging about up front?

I didn't same the Fins OL was great either. I said both have a lot to prove.


Once again, you've just got your panties in a bunch because your team hasn't been relevant in the NFL in 20 years. Granted, Buffalo hasn't been tearing it up lately, but I like where they are headed. The whole point here is you (a fan of an NFL irrelevant) has no right to come talk smack and speak as if your word is gospel on another team's message board, when it's arguable that your team is significantly worse off. If I came onto the Dolphins' bath house message board and talked smack about how Buffalo is so superior to Miami in certain areas, I'd expect the same treatment. The only difference is your fans have alternative jerseys that are pink, so frankly we're not that intimidated about all that up here. Frankly, I have no interest in going to www.finbathhouse.com (http://www.finbathhouse.com) or whatever it's called, just like I don't know why you would have so much interest in coming over to the Billszone. I would think you'd have better things to do with your time, and certainly better things to do than be argumentative and offensive. But I guess that's what Dolphins' fans do, since it sure hasn't been attending the home games for all of these years.

See ya in January Chicken-of-the-Sea...

Jon

Complete jibberish. I'll just leave you to your fantasy land. What the hell does being relevant in the NFL mean? The Fins have been to the playoffs more recently than the Bills have.

Both the Fins and the Bills are likely to be golfing in January.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 03:02 PM
Get yer heads out of the ham sandwiches down there in Miami. He's saying we're sweeping you again this year, which makes two years in a row!!!

Jon

Ummm. No.

He was clearly mistaken. Nice try though.

Mudflap1
08-02-2007, 03:15 PM
Their offensive line was better than the Bills OL last season. Fewer sacks, better YPC by the RBs. Glass houses, glass houses......

Here is your original quote. If you're argument is Ronnie Brown is better than Willis McGahee, fine, I'll actually agree with that. But it's not. We got rid of the trash and brought in better players like Dockery, Peters at LT, Lynch instead of McGahee, etc. What has Miami done again? Vernon Carey and L.J. Shelton are your two stars? And you're talking smack?

How many times has Cam Cameron won 13 games in a season? How about 10? How about a winning record?

Miami not being relevant in 20 years is not important? It means your organization can't run a team better than an also ran. I would say that's cause for concern. Granted, you could say the same about the Bills. Buffalo has a lot to prove, but I like where they are heading, and at least they have a proven winner running the ship.

And we'll see who pushes who around when the teams meet this season. That should adquately settle the debate (yet again).

Jon

duhbilz
08-02-2007, 03:23 PM
Here is your original quote. If you're argument is Ronnie Brown is better than Willis McGahee, fine, I'll actually agree with that. But it's not. We got rid of the trash and brought in better players like Dockery, Peters at LT, Lynch instead of McGahee, etc. What has Miami done again? Vernon Carey and L.J. Shelton are your two stars? And you're talking smack?

How many times has Cam Cameron won 13 games in a season? How about 10? How about a winning record?

Miami not being relevant in 20 years is not important? It means your organization can't run a team better than an also ran. I would say that's cause for concern. Granted, you could say the same about the Bills. Buffalo has a lot to prove, but I like where they are heading, and at least they have a proven winner running the ship.

And we'll see who pushes who around when the teams meet this season. That should adquately settle the debate (yet again).

Jon

What about Rex Hadnot and Samson Satele? I'm not trying to get into your argument here, but both lines appear to have moved some players around and added some players. At this point neither line has proven anything. All we can do is wait and see, a pissing match proves nothing.

ParanoidAndroid
08-02-2007, 03:31 PM
Ummm. No.

He was clearly mistaken. Nice try though.

Oh, comon.....move it to the smack zone....both of you.

The truth is, the last time either team had back-to-back sweeps was 2000 and 2001 and guess who swept who? The 90's were ours, but that's as far as it goes. Miami was good then, too, but we were that much better. Right now, neither of our teams are very good, but the Bills look to have a better near future than Miami who is carried by their ageing defense. As for this season, the Fins are in a bit of flux, but if Green can stay healthy and distribute the ball getting good protection, they will be tough for us to beat with that defense. If Green can't get in a rhythm or if he goes down, it's going to be a long season for them and I wouldn't be surprised if we swept them again.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 03:39 PM
What about Rex Hadnot and Samson Satele? I'm not trying to get into your argument here, but both lines appear to have moved some players around and added some players. At this point neither line has proven anything. All we can do is wait and see, a pissing match proves nothing.

Agreed.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 03:43 PM
Here is your original quote. If you're argument is Ronnie Brown is better than Willis McGahee, fine, I'll actually agree with that. But it's not. We got rid of the trash and brought in better players like Dockery, Peters at LT, Lynch instead of McGahee, etc. What has Miami done again? Vernon Carey and L.J. Shelton are your two stars? And you're talking smack?

How many times has Cam Cameron won 13 games in a season? How about 10? How about a winning record?

Miami not being relevant in 20 years is not important? It means your organization can't run a team better than an also ran. I would say that's cause for concern. Granted, you could say the same about the Bills. Buffalo has a lot to prove, but I like where they are heading, and at least they have a proven winner running the ship.

And we'll see who pushes who around when the teams meet this season. That should adquately settle the debate (yet again).

Jon

Wasn't this discussion about the performance of the OLs? I posted a link from an unbiased site that ranked the Fins OL ahead of the Bills last season. What have you done beside spout jibberish?

Voltron
08-02-2007, 03:45 PM
I heard the same thing this time last year. I think Miami can expect out of Ronnie what they've got the last two years. They can also expect the same O-line they've had the last two years. Whether you think Ronnie has sucked the last two years is your opinion. I personally think he's a great asset to the team. If he goes 16 straight games, he'll easily break 1250, probably 1300.
I had him as one of my fantasy backs last year and he did nothing for me. I ended up droping him out right and no one even picked him up in my league.

For your sake I hope he looks better.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 03:48 PM
Right now, neither of our teams are very good,

Agreed.


but the Bills look to have a better near future than Miami

I don't agree with this, but it certainly is debatable.


the Fins are in a bit of flux,

definitely


but if Green can stay healthy and distribute the ball getting good protection, they will be tough for us to beat with that defense.

agreed


If Green can't get in a rhythm or if he goes down, it's going to be a long season for them and I wouldn't be surprised if we swept them again.

I agree. IMO, the two biggest factors that cause the Fins offense to struggle last season were the OC and the QB. Both will be different this year. That doesn't guarantee improvement, but Cameron has proven to be a better play caller than Mularkey. Green has proven to be a better QB than Harrington. I like the chances for the offense to improve. I think the defense will be good.

The Bills have the advantage of stability from last season.

Mudflap1
08-02-2007, 04:10 PM
Wasn't this discussion about the performance of the OLs? I posted a link from an unbiased site that ranked the Fins OL ahead of the Bills last season. What have you done beside spout jibberish?

Who beat who last season? How many times? Oh that's right, you always seem to forget that part... funny how that is. Didn't your quarterback have as 0.0 QB rating during our second contest in January? Sounds like good offensive line play to me. I'm sure it's all Joey Hetherington's fault though...

Let's ask one question. Who on your offensive line is remotely close to the caliber of Jason Peters? How about Derrick Dockery? Vernon Carey? Monica Lewinksi? The vaunted line you are ballyhooing was overhauled with a bunch of nobodies this offseason.

That being said, the Bills have a lot to prove, but I don't think it's a reach at all to say their line is at least improved, and Miami's looks, well, pretty crappy on paper right now.

Problem is you are one of those cats who only likes to hear himself talk and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or says, whatever you believe is what you're going to believe.

Jon

duhbilz
08-02-2007, 04:47 PM
Let's ask one question. Who on your offensive line is remotely close to the caliber of Jason Peters? How about Derrick Dockery?

Jon


I hate to keep jumping in here, but you're trying to make it seem as though it's light years between Paters and Carey or Dockery and Hadnot or whomever the Dolphins play at G. The fact is neither team has a pro bowl caliber Oline right now, both lines made changes and both lines shuffled their lineup. I know both Peters and Carey could have been probowlers last year and weren't and neither Dockery or Hadnot made the probowl either, so I'm not sure what it is you're trying to prove with this argument. The only way either side can make a claim is when the games are played and the players settle this. Right now neither side has much on the other. Just let them play, like I said a pissing match proves nothing. I't one opinion versus another, that's all.

Mudflap1
08-02-2007, 05:01 PM
I hate to keep jumping in here, but you're trying to make it seem as though it's light years between Paters and Carey or Dockery and Hadnot or whomever the Dolphins play at G. The fact is neither team has a pro bowl caliber Oline right now, both lines made changes and both lines shuffled their lineup. I know both Peters and Carey could have been probowlers last year and weren't and neither Dockery or Hadnot made the probowl either, so I'm not sure what it is you're trying to prove with this argument. The only way either side can make a claim is when the games are played and the players settle this. Right now neither side has much on the other. Just let them play, like I said a pissing match proves nothing. I't one opinion versus another, that's all.

Two comments here:

Peters and Dockery ARE light years ahead of Carey and Hadnot. Are you kidding??? Those guys are way better...

As for letting the teams play, good point, tell that to finfaninbuffalo, because last time I checked that opinion resolved itself last season in the two games played...

We'll see what happens this season. If I were Miami I wouldn't be too confident.

Jon

duhbilz
08-02-2007, 05:16 PM
Two comments here:

Peters and Dockery ARE light years ahead of Carey and Hadnot. Are you kidding??? Those guys are way better...

As for letting the teams play, good point, tell that to finfaninbuffalo, because last time I checked that opinion resolved itself last season in the two games played...

We'll see what happens this season. If I were Miami I wouldn't be too confident.

Jon

Wow, I really don't see what you see. I disagree Peters is better then Carey, I think they're equally as good. As for Hadnot, he hasn't had the luxury of playing on a line like the one Dockery played for in Washington, so maybe Hadnot is every bit as good as Dockery and maybe he isn't. But there's nothing you can use to base a fair judgement on between the two of them at this point. As for last year, the Bills were better head to head against Miami, but that's as far as it goes, both teams had their problems. Besides this is a new year and I don't have a crytal ball so I'll just let them play the games before I make any statements about who made the better moves. But that's me.

Al13
08-02-2007, 05:21 PM
The article on July 30 says





Don't shoot the messenger. It's only been what 5 days? I'm not calling him out, I'm reporting what I'm reading.

i dont know where you&#180;ve been but john beck is lighting it up the last 3 days

Al13
08-02-2007, 05:27 PM
Give me an f'n break...

What should be sad for you is that your team hasn't been relevant in the NFL since when? 1984, maybe 1986? And you're wasting your time on a BUFFALO BILLS message board being argumentative and insulting.

Don't play the holier-than-thou card. Your team sucks. Our team sucks too, but the difference is you have a lame duck coach who couldn't win in college and had a stacked team in San Diego, which is the only reason he was the Dolphins' choice (like, sixth choice) to be head coach. You also have a very weak offensive line that got weaker in the offseason as opposed to (likely) stronger for the Bills. That's all. Your defense is good, but aging. Your quarterback used to be good, but will probably come to die in South Florida since he's 37 years old and playing behind a crappy offensive line where you actually have a decent back, but won't be able to effectively establish the running game and he will be throwing for his life and have a heavy pass rush on him all season (due to a crappy offensive line).

But if you think your **** doesn't stink, go ahead and talk smack. We'll see where Miami is at in January. Until then, keep spending your days littering a BUFFALO BILLS message board.

Jon

wow, calling Cam Cameron a lame duck coach, after he coached up drew brees to stardom and did the same thing with rivers, making LT what he is and finding gates of the basketball court to be the best TE in the game today is sure a sign of beeing a lame coach, what about dick jauron the guy who couldn´t do a damn in chicago

ParanoidAndroid
08-02-2007, 07:12 PM
Wow, I really don't see what you see. I disagree Peters is better then Carey, I think they're equally as good. As for Hadnot, he hasn't had the luxury of playing on a line like the one Dockery played for in Washington, so maybe Hadnot is every bit as good as Dockery and maybe he isn't. But there's nothing you can use to base a fair judgement on between the two of them at this point. As for last year, the Bills were better head to head against Miami, but that's as far as it goes, both teams had their problems. Besides this is a new year and I don't have a crytal ball so I'll just let them play the games before I make any statements about who made the better moves. But that's me.

Go away, troll. But one thing before you go....who is your team, anyway?

ParanoidAndroid
08-02-2007, 07:14 PM
i dont know where you&#180;ve been but john beck is lighting it up the last 3 days

You must have some incredible eyesight being able to see him practice all the way from Berlin. I mean, that's where you've been, right?

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 07:28 PM
Two comments here:

Peters and Dockery ARE light years ahead of Carey and Hadnot. Are you kidding??? Those guys are way better...


Based on what? Take the blue and red glasses off.

im4bflo
08-02-2007, 07:34 PM
Ronald Brown is a FISH, so he SUCKS!
Just like his teamates, and fans. :squish:

raphael120
08-02-2007, 08:13 PM
I dunno guys, as Bills fans we dont have too too much to brag about, but......Miami is really a mess. hahaha.

duhbilz
08-02-2007, 08:23 PM
Go away, troll. But one thing before you go....who is your team, anyway?

You don't like what I write, don't read it.

ParanoidAndroid
08-02-2007, 08:32 PM
You don't like what I write, don't read it.

1) How will I know I don't like it if I don't read it?
2) You didn't answer my question.
3) Disregard the troll thing...it was not very nice of me.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-02-2007, 08:48 PM
Wow, I really don't see what you see. I disagree Peters is better then Carey, I think they're equally as good. As for Hadnot, he hasn't had the luxury of playing on a line like the one Dockery played for in Washington, so maybe Hadnot is every bit as good as Dockery and maybe he isn't. But there's nothing you can use to base a fair judgement on between the two of them at this point. As for last year, the Bills were better head to head against Miami, but that's as far as it goes, both teams had their problems. Besides this is a new year and I don't have a crytal ball so I'll just let them play the games before I make any statements about who made the better moves. But that's me.

Props to a reasonable Bills fan. I'd give a slight nod to Peters at this point because he played pretty well at LT last season. Carey played well also, but it was at RT. Hadnot has shown some signs but Dockery seems a bit more proven.

IMO, the Bill have huge questions at RG and RT. The center was good but not great last season.

Miami has their own share of question marks. I think the line will end up -
Carey - Liwienski - Satele - Hadnot - Shelton

All have potential but all have something to prove.

duhbilz
08-02-2007, 08:55 PM
1) How will I know I don't like it if I don't read it?
2) You didn't answer my question.
3) Disregard the troll thing...it was not very nice of me.

I try to be fair with what I write, not one sided. The troll thing is forgotten.

Mudflap1
08-03-2007, 01:20 AM
Props to a reasonable Bills fan. I'd give a slight nod to Peters at this point because he played pretty well at LT last season. Carey played well also, but it was at RT.

Oh really????? How many sacks did Carey give up to RYAN DENNEY last year in the first Bills-Dolphins game? And Denney only plays about 50% of the snaps!!!

P.S. I believe the number of sacks was THREE. That's RYAN DENNEY - three sacks in one game. Yeah, Carey's in the same league as Jason Peters, uh huh, sure...

Jon

Al13
08-03-2007, 05:40 AM
You must have some incredible eyesight being able to see him practice all the way from Berlin. I mean, that's where you've been, right?


thats where i am but i can read and all camp reports from fellow dolphin fans and the media cant be wrong i guess if they all say the same

mysticsoto
08-03-2007, 07:38 AM
Oh really????? How many sacks did Carey give up to RYAN DENNEY last year in the first Bills-Dolphins game? And Denney only plays about 50% of the snaps!!!

P.S. I believe the number of sacks was THREE. That's RYAN DENNEY - three sacks in one game. Yeah, Carey's in the same league as Jason Peters, uh huh, sure...

Jon

I have to agree with Mudflap here...it is ridiculous to think anyone on the Fins Oline can be compared to Peters. Everyone in the league is starting to take notice of Peters. When you start reading articles talking about Peters from non-Buffalo sources, you know people are impressed with his play. Where have there been any articles talking about Miami's Oline (outside of Miami's sportswriters complaining). I think the Fin fans here are vastly underestimating the changes that our Oline has done to improve itself. We will easily know once the season starts. If the TEs don't have to be held in anymore to help, the improvements will have succeeded, and a whole new higher powered offense should emerge...

HHURRICANE
08-03-2007, 08:01 AM
I have to agree with Mudflap here...it is ridiculous to think anyone on the Fins Oline can be compared to Peters. Everyone in the league is starting to take notice of Peters. When you start reading articles talking about Peters from non-Buffalo sources, you know people are impressed with his play. Where have there been any articles talking about Miami's Oline (outside of Miami's sportswriters complaining). I think the Fin fans here are vastly underestimating the changes that our Oline has done to improve itself. We will easily know once the season starts. If the TEs don't have to be held in anymore to help, the improvements will have succeeded, and a whole new higher powered offense should emerge...

As Bills fans did for so many years in pre-season, underestimating the value of a good o-line is about the biggest mistake you can make. Miami fans are in denial like we have been in years past.

I can't tell you for sure how Ronnie, Ginn, or Beck will play but I can gurantee that their O-line will be horrible.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-03-2007, 08:12 AM
I have to agree with Mudflap here...it is ridiculous to think anyone on the Fins Oline can be compared to Peters. Everyone in the league is starting to take notice of Peters. When you start reading articles talking about Peters from non-Buffalo sources, you know people are impressed with his play. Where have there been any articles talking about Miami's Oline (outside of Miami's sportswriters complaining). I think the Fin fans here are vastly underestimating the changes that our Oline has done to improve itself. We will easily know once the season starts. If the TEs don't have to be held in anymore to help, the improvements will have succeeded, and a whole new higher powered offense should emerge...

Vernon Carey also received plenty of national recognition last season.

Fin fans are underestimating the impact of Langston Walker? Good luck with that.

The fact is that (despite a bad start) the Fins OL out performed the Bills OL last season. The numbers prove it. Outside sources back it up. BTW, Jason Peters played on that line. They gave up more sacks than the Fins despite attempting significantly fewer passes.

Neither team had a good OL last season. Both teams are attempting to improve. We will see which was more successful.

duhbilz
08-03-2007, 08:25 AM
As Bills fans did for so many years in pre-season, underestimating the value of a good o-line is about the biggest mistake you can make. Miami fans are in denial like we have been in years past.

I can't tell you for sure how Ronnie, Ginn, or Beck will play but I can gurantee that their O-line will be horrible.

I'm not sure where you see a big difference in the two lines at this point. If the Bills had been in the top 15, then added Dockery I would agree Buffalo would project to be better, but that's not the case. I think there's just to much unknown about the two lines right now to say for sure ones better then the other.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-03-2007, 08:27 AM
As Bills fans did for so many years in pre-season, underestimating the value of a good o-line is about the biggest mistake you can make. Miami fans are in denial like we have been in years past.

I can't tell you for sure how Ronnie, Ginn, or Beck will play but I can gurantee that their O-line will be horrible.

Fin fans don't underestimate the value of a good OL. Bills fans overestimate the impact of their yearly changes to the OL. Every year we hear that "this year we made changes that will give us a great OL". Every year. Last season if was Fowler and Reyes. Bills fans were convinced that the front office had solved the problem. Well ....... Before that it was Chris Villarrial. Before that it was Trey Teague and Mike Gandy. And on and on and on.

This year it is Dockery and Walker. Why not just let them play? The Bills OL is bad until it proves otherwise. That is all I'm saying.

Miami's OL was solid in 2002, 2003, and 2005. In 2006, they started slow but were decent after that. My big complaint is that the OL gets shuffled every year despite looking decent the year before. The OL hasn't been able to develop as a unit. They have a solid group of players that need time to gel as a unit. Hopefully this year starts that process.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-03-2007, 08:31 AM
I'm not sure where you see a big difference in the two lines at this point. If the Bills had been in the top 15, then added Dockery I would agree Buffalo would project to be better, but that's not the case. I think there's just to much unknown about the two lines right now to say for sure ones better then the other.

:bf1:

HHURRICANE
08-03-2007, 08:50 AM
I'm not sure where you see a big difference in the two lines at this point. If the Bills had been in the top 15, then added Dockery I would agree Buffalo would project to be better, but that's not the case. I think there's just to much unknown about the two lines right now to say for sure ones better then the other.

Unfortunately, you haven't read the detailed posts that I've made on this subject addressing both lines specifically. I will try to find them and post it here shortly. Your post is uninformed.

mysticsoto
08-03-2007, 08:50 AM
Vernon Carey also received plenty of national recognition last season.

Fin fans are underestimating the impact of Langston Walker? Good luck with that.

The fact is that (despite a bad start) the Fins OL out performed the Bills OL last season. The numbers prove it. Outside sources back it up. BTW, Jason Peters played on that line. They gave up more sacks than the Fins despite attempting significantly fewer passes.

Neither team had a good OL last season. Both teams are attempting to improve. We will see which was more successful.

Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story. We had a significant amt of sacks last year early in the season. After our bye week in mid year, significant changes were made and afterward, the sack average dropped quite a bit. Unfortunately, the total numbers are skewed on the 1st half of the season.

However, does that really matter? The Bills have made significant changes such that more than half the line might be new starters (RG is still up in the air on who will win that position). The left side was already pretty strong and with Dockery there, it has gotten that much stronger! Langston Walker may not scare you, but he's got more experience than Pennington did who was a rookie last year trying to quickly adjust to the NFL game - so he's still a step up - not to mention that he will be an ummovable mountain and your only chance is to run around him b'cse running through him is not an option! Lastly, we have more experienced depth than we did last year with all the rookies we had on the team. I wouldn't write our new Oline off as casually as you have done. The FO has given them a great deal of attention (unlike in Miami) and I think the results will show this year.

Oh, and having a giant like Walker play on STs also as a kick/punt blocker isn't a bad bonus to have either!!!

JoeMama
08-03-2007, 08:52 AM
Miami's been in a rut over the past 10 years regarding first round draft picks.

1997: Yatil Green - Tore ACL twice in training camp, never played.

1998: John Avery - Selected over Randy Moss. Imagine Dan Marino hooking up with Moss to end his career. Scary thought; I'm glad it didn't happen.

1999: No Draft Pick

2000: No Draft Pick

2001: Jamar Fletcher - Selected over Drew Brees, whom most analysts assumed was the Dolphins original target. Also, I can't even remember the amount of Fish fans that actually argued he would be better than Nate Clements.

2002: No Draft Pick

2003: No Draft Pick

2004: Vernon Carey - Pretty solid after a very slow start to his career. If I remember correctly, I think he went from a backup, to right guard, then to right tackle. We'll see how he does at left tackle this season.

2005: Ronnie Brown - Not bad but hasn't lived up to number two overall status in the draft.

2006: Jason Allen - Rough start to his career and it looks like he'll be the fourth cornerback this season. Too early to write him off, but I never liked the pick.

2007: Ted Ginn Jr - I thought it was an odd choice at number nine overall in the draft. We'll see though.

duhbilz
08-03-2007, 09:50 AM
Unfortunately, you haven't read the detailed posts that I've made on this subject addressing both lines specifically. I will try to find them and post it here shortly. Your post is uninformed.


I'll be glad to read it, but don't waste my time if the post is loaded with bias views.Fans have a way of spinning things to suit there hope. I would rather read something that's honest and not sugar coated. Based on everything I know about the two lines, I'd be willing to bet you painted a favorable light on one line while doing just the oposite to the other. We'll see.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-03-2007, 09:55 AM
Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story. We had a significant amt of sacks last year early in the season. After our bye week in mid year, significant changes were made and afterward, the sack average dropped quite a bit. Unfortunately, the total numbers are skewed on the 1st half of the season.

The Fins gave up 21 sacks in the first 4 games and 20 sacks after that, so exactly the same argument can be made for the Fins. In 2005, the Fins only allowed 26 sacks. Their OL coach seems to be able to teach the OL to pass block. Ronnie Brown has also averaged 4.3 YPC over the last two seasons.


However, does that really matter? The Bills have made significant changes such that more than half the line might be new starters (RG is still up in the air on who will win that position).

The Fins may have all five as new starters.


The left side was already pretty strong and with Dockery there, it has gotten that much stronger!

They should be solid on the left side.


Langston Walker may not scare you, but he's got more experience than Pennington did who was a rookie last year trying to quickly adjust to the NFL game - so he's still a step up - not to mention that he will be an ummovable mountain and your only chance is to run around him b'cse running through him is not an option!

Walker gave up 10.5 sacks last year. Enough said. Oakland's line was ranked worse than the Bills. They gave up 72 sacks. From what I have read, both Dockery and Walker are poor pass blockers.


Lastly, we have more experienced depth than we did last year with all the rookies we had on the team. I wouldn't write our new Oline off as casually as you have done. The FO has given them a great deal of attention (unlike in Miami) and I think the results will show this year.


You need to read up more on the Fins before you make statements. The Fins are likely to have 2 or 3 new starters on the line and all 5 players in new positions. How is that not giving the OL attention? They main difference is that Miami has been trying to rebuild the line via the draft. Depending on whether Alabi or Shelton starts at RT, the Fins OL may consist entirely of players drafted by the Fins (Carey, Mormino, Satele, Hadnot, Alabi).

mysticsoto
08-03-2007, 11:08 AM
The Fins gave up 21 sacks in the first 4 games and 20 sacks after that, so exactly the same argument can be made for the Fins. In 2005, the Fins only allowed 26 sacks. Their OL coach seems to be able to teach the OL to pass block. Ronnie Brown has also averaged 4.3 YPC over the last two seasons.

Uhhh...yeah, but who had a 0.0 pass rating? I know for the sake of this argument, you'd like to pin that all on Harrington, but truth of the matter is, his Oline had alot to do with his apparent ineptness!!! Having to run for your life and/or throw the ball away (or make hurried bad passes) also falls on the side of the Oline!



The Fins may have all five as new starters.


They've mostly shuffled people around. LJ Shelton? Please. He has sucked everywhere he's gone.



They should be solid on the left side.


Yes, we will. And if you saw some of the games last year, you saw that we were already pretty solid last year and McGahee got all his yards from the left side. That will be even moreso solid this year!!!



Walker gave up 10.5 sacks last year. Enough said. Oakland's line was ranked worse than the Bills. They gave up 72 sacks. From what I have read, both Dockery and Walker are poor pass blockers.


Yep, they are poor pass blockers but great run blockers. I guess they opted for a balance between the two. And 10.5 sacks in 16 games is < 1 per game. That's not terrible for a tackle position - though it certain can be improved with better personnel and coaching around you.



You need to read up more on the Fins before you make statements. The Fins are likely to have 2 or 3 new starters on the line and all 5 players in new positions. How is that not giving the OL attention? They main difference is that Miami has been trying to rebuild the line via the draft. Depending on whether Alabi or Shelton starts at RT, the Fins OL may consist entirely of players drafted by the Fins (Carey, Mormino, Satele, Hadnot, Alabi).

The fins have done what we did in the TD era...shuffle people around and bring in has-beens and bums who can't block for sh**. I don't really expect much of your Oline and think your QB will suffer b'cse of it. I like Trent, but I won't feel bad for him each time he gets hit.

Here are some relevant quotes:

Cameron, looking for a consistent protector of his quarterback's blind side, believes Carey has the ability to fill the role.
''He and I've talked about it,'' Cameron said. ``. . . He's excited about that opportunity, and this young man has a lot of ability, and I came in with an open mind. In my view we've got a guy who can develop into the kind of left tackle we're looking for.''
That is asking a lot of a player who only a year ago was a question mark at his familiar right tackle spot, a player who was a left guard and right tackle in college, a player who had a short experiment at left tackle his rookie year.
An experiment that failed.
But the Dolphins will nonetheless be mixing Carey and other players in the lab the next few days trying to conjure a starting offensive line.
L.J. Shelton, who has played left tackle most of his career, came to the Dolphins last season to fill that position. But in starting there the first five games, he was the lowest-graded starter along the line in three of those.
So the Dolphins moved him to right guard, where he played well enough to start the final 11 games of the season. Shelton was still at right guard during last month's minicamp but now will go to right tackle, a spot he has played only one of his eight NFL seasons, in 2004 with Arizona.

'In an ideal sense we don't want guys 330, 340, 350 pounds playing guard,'' Cameron said. ``We want guys that can think, and can move and are mobile. We'd like our bigger guys to be at tackle. Obviously they need to be athletic. L.J. has had a ton of time in this league playing tackle.'' But Shelton has never really found a home during that time.
The Cardinals, a team needing talent on the offensive line, released him in 2005. The Browns, also needing talent there, let Shelton leave in free agency after one season.
Other players might also get a chance at the tackle spots if the Shelton and Carey experiments explode in coaches' faces. Joe Toledo, at 6-5 and 330 pounds, might get a chance at tackle and, in fact, is listed as a tackle on roster. He played mostly guard during the 2006 preseason.
Anthony Alabi, who manned the left tackle spot in the last minicamp, might get a chance to compete at either tackle spot once he recovers from arthroscopic knee surgery.
All this while the interior of the line is also in flux.
http://origin.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/17175200.htm

Mudflap1
08-03-2007, 11:21 AM
Blah Blah Blah... Ryan Denney... 3 sacks versus Vernon Carey in 1/2 a game (Miami's supposed best offensive linemen that is being ballyhooed). That's all the evidence I need.

The point of the conversation wasn't whose line is better either, it's that Miami's line sucks until proven otherwise.

We'll see what the players prove on the field.

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-03-2007, 11:33 AM
Uhhh...yeah, but who had a 0.0 pass rating? I know for the sake of this argument, you'd like to pin that all on Harrington, but truth of the matter is, his Oline had alot to do with his apparent ineptness!!! Having to run for your life and/or throw the ball away (or make hurried bad passes) also falls on the side of the Oline!

Why do Bills fans keep ignoring the facts? Your OL gave up more sacks and was a worse run blocking line than the Fins last season. Period. End of discussion.


They've mostly shuffled people around. LJ Shelton? Please. He has sucked everywhere he's gone.

At least 3, possibly 4 of the players will be new.


And 10.5 sacks in 16 games is < 1 per game. That's not terrible for a tackle position

:roflmao:


The fins have done what we did in the TD era...shuffle people around and bring in has-beens and bums who can't block for sh**. I don't really expect much of your Oline and think your QB will suffer b'cse of it. I like Trent, but I won't feel bad for him each time he gets hit.

Dude, Tuten Reyes was brought in by Levy. He finished the season as the waterboy. Langston Walker sucks. The Bill are paying him a lot of money. How has anything changed?



Here are some relevant quotes:

Cameron, looking for a consistent protector of his quarterback's blind side, believes Carey has the ability to fill the role.
''He and I've talked about it,'' Cameron said. ``. . . He's excited about that opportunity, and this young man has a lot of ability, and I came in with an open mind. In my view we've got a guy who can develop into the kind of left tackle we're looking for.''
That is asking a lot of a player who only a year ago was a question mark at his familiar right tackle spot, a player who was a left guard and right tackle in college, a player who had a short experiment at left tackle his rookie year.
An experiment that failed.
But the Dolphins will nonetheless be mixing Carey and other players in the lab the next few days trying to conjure a starting offensive line.
L.J. Shelton, who has played left tackle most of his career, came to the Dolphins last season to fill that position. But in starting there the first five games, he was the lowest-graded starter along the line in three of those.
So the Dolphins moved him to right guard, where he played well enough to start the final 11 games of the season. Shelton was still at right guard during last month's minicamp but now will go to right tackle, a spot he has played only one of his eight NFL seasons, in 2004 with Arizona.

'In an ideal sense we don't want guys 330, 340, 350 pounds playing guard,'' Cameron said. ``We want guys that can think, and can move and are mobile. We'd like our bigger guys to be at tackle. Obviously they need to be athletic. L.J. has had a ton of time in this league playing tackle.'' But Shelton has never really found a home during that time.
The Cardinals, a team needing talent on the offensive line, released him in 2005. The Browns, also needing talent there, let Shelton leave in free agency after one season.
Other players might also get a chance at the tackle spots if the Shelton and Carey experiments explode in coaches' faces. Joe Toledo, at 6-5 and 330 pounds, might get a chance at tackle and, in fact, is listed as a tackle on roster. He played mostly guard during the 2006 preseason.
Anthony Alabi, who manned the left tackle spot in the last minicamp, might get a chance to compete at either tackle spot once he recovers from arthroscopic knee surgery.
All this while the interior of the line is also in flux.
http://origin.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/17175200.htm

Those quotes were from May. The OL hadn't played a snap in pads yet.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-03-2007, 11:38 AM
Blah Blah Blah... Ryan Denney... 3 sacks versus Vernon Carey in 1/2 a game (Miami's supposed best offensive linemen that is being ballyhooed). That's all the evidence I need.

The point of the conversation wasn't whose line is better either, it's that Miami's line sucks until proven otherwise.

We'll see what the players prove on the field.

Jon
And the Bills line sucks worse until proven otherwise.

Even a Bills fan should be able to determine which is better -

1. Giving up (a) 47 sacks or (b) 41 sacks
2. Averaging (a) 3.7 YPC or (b) 4.2 YPC

If the higher order math is stumping you, I'll give you a hint - the answer is (b).

Keep living in your fantasy world.

Mudflap1
08-03-2007, 11:43 AM
And the Bills line sucks worse until proven otherwise.

Even a Bills fan should be able to determine which is better -

1. Giving up (a) 47 sacks or (b) 41 sacks
2. Averaging (a) 3.7 YPC or (b) 4.2 YPC

Keep living in your fantasy world.

Dude, there you go again. You're such a friggin' whiny little crybaby about this. I go and post something that is non-confrontational, and leave it with a good enough conclusion (let the players do the talking) and you have to come back with a condescending response that isn't the point of the argument. The argument is whether Miami's line sucks now. Not compared to Buffalo, although as it stands RIGHT NOW I don't see how you can win that argument. Buffalo's line wasn't that good last year, and some improvements have been made in the offseason. My argument wasn't whose line was better LAST year. However, what was your record last year? If your defense was so great (which they were good), then if you had a better offensive line (and Saint Nick at head coach) you'd think your record would have been better than Buffalo's last year. And Buffalo outscored Miami 37-6 last year too. And what did your coaches do with that stellar cast? They overhauled the offensive line.

I think Miami's line is one of the 5 worst in the league right now. I think Buffalo's improved. We'll see if that plays out though. Sorry, Vernon Carey (see above quotes about him and 3 sacks from Denney and 1 from Kelsay in one game last year) along with Monica Lewinski, Shelton, and co. don't impress me. Not at all. At least we have one or two guys on our line who are being talked about as possible Pro Bowl-caliber players. How do you not see this? I know, because you are delusional and spend your days trying to irritate Bills' fans on a Bills' message board with inflammatory comments when you cannot dispute Bills' fans' arguments.

You're the one in a fantasy world. Keep drinking the aqua Kool-Aid smartass. And go away too, Bills' fans aren't interested in listening to your insulting conjectures.

Jon

duhbilz
08-03-2007, 11:54 AM
Dude, there you go again. You're such a friggin' whiny little crybaby about this.

Jon
Bottom line is you can find good and bad with both lines last year and neither line has played a game this year. So neither Dolphin fans or Bill fans can claim anything till they play.

!Papacrunk!
08-03-2007, 11:56 AM
Bottom line is you can find good and bad with both lines last year and neither line has played a game this year. So neither Dolphin fans or Bill fans can claim anything till they play.

ding ding ding, we have a winner! And it only took two sentences. compared to other peeps' paragraphs

Mudflap1
08-03-2007, 11:57 AM
Bottom line is you can find good and bad with both lines last year and neither line has played a game this year. So neither Dolphin fans or Bill fans can claim anything till they play.

This is an acceptable response.

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-03-2007, 11:58 AM
Dude, there you go again. You're such a friggin' whiny little crybaby about this. I go and post something that is non-confrontational, and leave it with a good enough conclusion (let the players do the talking) and you have to come back with a condescending response that isn't the point of the argument. The argument is whether Miami's line sucks now. Not compared to Buffalo, although as it stands RIGHT NOW I don't see how you can win that argument. Buffalo's line wasn't that good last year, and some improvements have been made in the offseason. My argument wasn't whose line was better LAST year. However, what was your record last year? If your defense was so great (which they were good), then if you had a better offensive line (and Saint Nick at head coach) you'd think your record would have been better than Buffalo's last year. And Buffalo outscored Miami 37-6 last year too. And what did your coaches do with that stellar cast? They overhauled the offensive line.

I think Miami's line is one of the 5 worst in the league right now. I think Buffalo's improved. We'll see if that plays out though. Sorry, Vernon Carey (see above quotes about him and 3 sacks from Denney and 1 from Kelsay in one game last year) along with Monica Lewinski, Shelton, and co. don't impress me. Not at all. At least we have one or two guys on our line who are being talked about as possible Pro Bowl-caliber players. How do you not see this? I know, because you are delusional and spend your days trying to irritate Bills' fans on a Bills' message board with inflammatory comments when you cannot dispute Bills' fans' arguments.

You're the one in a fantasy world. Keep drinking the aqua Kool-Aid smartass. And go away too, Bills' fans aren't interested in listening to your insulting conjectures.

Jon

You want to talk smack, prepare to get it back. A Bills fan has no room to talk about another team's OL. Don't like it? Too bad.

Mudflap1
08-03-2007, 12:03 PM
You want to talk smack, prepare to get it back. A Bills fan has no room to talk about another team's OL. Don't like it? Too bad.

Yeah, but you're on our turf. Again, if this was on finheaven.com, I'd expect the same rabid response.

Don't like it? Too bad.

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-03-2007, 12:08 PM
ding ding ding, we have a winner! And it only took two sentences. compared to other peeps' paragraphs

The lengthy reponses were to the ridiculous smack talk of some of the Bills fans. This is from my third post in this thread:


The Fins are making an attempt also. There will be at least two new starters on the OL. All 5 positions will likely have different starters next season. Both teams have something to prove on the OL.


Reasonable posts get reasonable reponses.

mikemac2001
08-03-2007, 12:09 PM
Ronnie Brown sucks

Mudflap1
08-03-2007, 12:17 PM
Ronnie Brown sucks

nice

Bling
08-03-2007, 07:10 PM
i dont know where you´ve been but john beck is lighting it up the last 3 days

The classic condescending post before making a point. I got one for ya too: I don't know where you've been, but I'm not buying a rookie QB lighting it up. Everybody lights it up in practice. Especially the ones that we've deemed our future. Get back to me in November. Call me pessimistic, blah, blah, blah. I'll believe it when I see it. You should learn by now that we hear the same thing every September about our QB position.

mysticsoto
08-09-2007, 08:14 AM
Dolphins OL L.J. Shelton was demoted to the second-team offense because the coaching staff wasn't satisfied with his weight.
Shelton's weight has been an issue before. The 'Fins want him to drop 15 lbs. after he showed up weighing 345. According to the Palm Beach Post, Shelton will get his starting right tackle job back once he sheds the pounds.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/dolphins/content/sports/epaper/2007/08/09/a1c_fins_0809.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=46

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 10:09 AM
IMO, the Bills OL was worse than the Fins last season.


Not according to guys like Denney who's just our back-up. :D

The fins are in dire straights. Next year will be spring cleaning for your aging D and you will also be needing better OL. That's my prediction.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 12:20 PM
Not according to guys like Denney who's just our back-up. :D

The fins are in dire straights. Next year will be spring cleaning for your aging D and you will also be needing better OL. That's my prediction.

Both Miami and Buffalo have major questions to be answered this season. Both have a chance to be better IF the changes that they are making work out.

I don't think the D will need a spring cleaning. They have been adding young talent for the last several seasons:

- Rod Wright
- Matt Roth
- Kevin Vickerson
- Paul Soliai
- Channing Crowder
- Yeremiah Bell
- Renaldo Hill
- Jason Allen
- Travis Daniels
- Will Allen
- Andre Goodman

They will need to deal with replacing Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas in a year or two. Every team with great players that have played a long time have to deal with this.

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 01:00 PM
Both Miami and Buffalo have major questions to be answered this season. Both have a chance to be better IF the changes that they are making work out.

I don't think the D will need a spring cleaning. They have been adding young talent for the last several seasons:

- Rod Wright
- Matt Roth
- Kevin Vickerson
- Paul Soliai
- Channing Crowder
- Yeremiah Bell
- Renaldo Hill
- Jason Allen
- Travis Daniels
- Will Allen
- Andre Goodman

They will need to deal with replacing Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas in a year or two. Every team with great players that have played a long time have to deal with this.we're one year ahead :D.

Other than Allen who is living up to his billing( a bust), Travis "where did Evans go?" Daniels , Channing "crossdresser" Crowder and Matt " meanstreakbutcan'tdoiton field" Roth (I'll Take Kelsay over him ANYDAY)I don't know who the rest are. I do like our youngsters over yours though.

Hopefully Brown continues to underachieve although I think he'll be a beast and Booker should be way better than Travis Minor.

Your OL still blows. You will find out soon enough.

All in all I do agree, both teams are questionable but I think we have a better headstart thanks to Sabanstedt.

Bling
08-09-2007, 01:03 PM
we're one year ahead :D.

Other than Allen who is living up to his billing( a bust), Travis "where did Evans go?" Daniels , Channing "crossdresser" Crowder and Matt " meanstreakbutcan'tdoiton field" Roth (I'll Take Kelsay over him ANYDAY)I don't know who the rest are. I do like our youngsters over yours though.

Hopefully Brown continues to underachieve although I think he'll be a beast and Booker should be way better than Travis Minor.

Your OL still blows. You will find out soon enough.

All in all I do agree, both teams are questionable but I think we have a better headstart thanks to Sabanstedt.

Course you like your guys better.

PECKERWOOD
08-09-2007, 01:03 PM
Dolphins OL L.J. Shelton was demoted to the second-team offense because the coaching staff wasn't satisfied with his weight.
Shelton's weight has been an issue before. The 'Fins want him to drop 15 lbs. after he showed up weighing 345. According to the Palm Beach Post, Shelton will get his starting right tackle job back once he sheds the pounds.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/dolphins/content/sports/epaper/2007/08/09/a1c_fins_0809.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=46

Sounds like Shelton can't keep his hand out of the Doritos bag.

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 01:04 PM
Your OL still blows. You will find out soon enough.

All in all I do agree, both teams are questionable but I think we have a better headstart thanks to Sabanstedt.

Perfectly stated.

Jon

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 01:05 PM
Course you like your guys better.

Well, considering we outscored you boys 37-6 last year and had a better record, uh, yeah, we do...

Jon

PECKERWOOD
08-09-2007, 01:07 PM
Well, considering we outscored you boys 37-6 last year and had a better record, uh, yeah, we do...

Jon

We went out and signed Dockery and Walker as well, OFCOURSE we're going to be excited about our OL. FINALLY we have a competent GM & FO. Me and countless other people here have been complaining about our ****ty OL in previous years past, it's just finally nice to see the need get addressed.

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 01:10 PM
Course you like your guys better.

Let' put it this way, I like the potential of our guys better for years to come .

Whitner over any of your safeties.

POZ , Crowell over Crowder or young ones although your lbers on paper are tops for now, we'll how age affects them.

Evans , no need to explain.

Lynch's potential over Browns.

Our OL is way ahead of yours.

Our TE"s over any of yours. Cam screwed up by letting Mcwifebeater go and replaced him with Martin who would'nt crack a spot in an already questionable bills TE position.

Qb's. Hell we don't even know if Beck is better than Endwards. We have our qb and Green is just your stop gap.

Last but not least, Cam is questionable. He's neither here nor there. In time we will find out if he's any better than both Wanny and Saban.

HHURRICANE
08-09-2007, 01:13 PM
I travel a fair amount in my car so I listen to Sirius alot. Pretty much every Miami fan that has called in has said that their D will keep them in games but they are worried about the OL.

The OL in Miami is an issue. Period.

To say that "Miami's line is better than the Bills" is about as uninformed as it gets.

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 01:15 PM
To say that "Miami's line is better than the Bills" is about as uninformed as it gets.

McNally matches up to Houck. I would put Jauron ahead of Cam.

On paper(players), no doubt we're better. LJ Shelton is up there on age and he's been average at best. LT's don't grow on trees.

Static
08-09-2007, 01:40 PM
People have a right to doubt the Dolphins right now, saying our O-line is improved doesn't hold much weight until we prove that we are better then the past few years. I feel we are headed in a better direction, but until i see some results, it is hard to put up much of a fight about our team.

HHURRICANE
08-09-2007, 01:41 PM
McNally matches up to Houck. I would put Jauron ahead of Cam.

On paper(players), no doubt we're better. LJ Shelton is up there on age and he's been average at best. LT's don't grow on trees.

I actually was going to do a breakdown the individual weaknesses of the Miami line like I did a few months ago but I'm not sure who any of the starters are going to be at this point.

Neither can any of the Miami fans which makes any post about their line ridiculous at this point.

However, if any Miami fan would like to break it down, have at it.

You can use: Peters-Dockery-Fowler-Preston-Walker as our starters.

In addition, Butler (RT), Whittle (RG) and and Pennington (LT, even though he played RT last year) would all be in contention for starting jobs as starters in Miami.

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 01:53 PM
People have a right to doubt the Dolphins right now, saying our O-line is improved doesn't hold much weight until we prove that we are better then the past few years. I feel we are headed in a better direction, but until i see some results, it is hard to put up much of a fight about our team.
nice post. I'm not saying our OL is gonna be better but we have a better perspective since we're in our 2nd year of rebuild while you're in your first. Your OL will have to get acquainted first with your qb and then each other.

I've read reports (not always accurate) that Greens blinside protection Shelton isnt doing very well. You better not lose Green in preseason. Lemon better be ready.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 02:17 PM
we're one year ahead :D.

Other than Allen who is living up to his billing( a bust), Travis "where did Evans go?" Daniels , Channing "crossdresser" Crowder and Matt " meanstreakbutcan'tdoiton field" Roth (I'll Take Kelsay over him ANYDAY)I don't know who the rest are. I do like our youngsters over yours though.

Hopefully Brown continues to underachieve although I think he'll be a beast and Booker should be way better than Travis Minor.

Your OL still blows. You will find out soon enough.

All in all I do agree, both teams are questionable but I think we have a better headstart thanks to Sabanstedt.

The team is returning 9 starters from the #4 rated defense. They added Joey Porter and Matt Roth will step in for Kevin Carter. Clearly they can be very very good on defense. The Bills are years away from matching the Fins defensively.

On offense, the Bills only averaged 2.6 more points per game than a very bad Fins offense. IMO, Losman is still a question mark. Lynch is a question mark. I don't like any of your receivers other than Lee Evans. The OL should be better but will still be a middle of the pack OL at best.

The Fins need the OL to play better than last season. On paper they match up very well against the Bills offense:

Green > Losman
Brown > Lynch
Fins WRs > Bills WRs
Fins OL < Bills OL
Fins TE > Bills TE

IMO, the two biggest problems last season on offense were the OC and the QB. Both are different and there for have a chance to be better. Despite my rankings by position, I give the edge to the Bills on offense because there has been more stability from last season, but lets not forget that the Bills were not that good last year.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 02:21 PM
nice post. I'm not saying our OL is gonna be better but we have a better perspective since we're in our 2nd year of rebuild while you're in your first. Your OL will have to get acquainted first with your qb and then each other.

I've read reports (not always accurate) that Greens blinside protection Shelton isnt doing very well. You better not lose Green in preseason. Lemon better be ready.

I agree that the Fins need to show it on the field. Everything else is just talk. The same applies to the Bills. They need to score more than 18 points per game.

BTW, Shelton is not the LT so whatever reports you are reading are not accurate. Shelton has been with the 2nd team in an effort to motivate him to drop some weight. They are only asking him to drop 15 lbs. That's not a lot when you weigh 347. A little exlax should do it.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 02:25 PM
We went out and signed Dockery and Walker as well, OFCOURSE we're going to be excited about our OL. FINALLY we have a competent GM & FO. Me and countless other people here have been complaining about our ****ty OL in previous years past, it's just finally nice to see the need get addressed.

Your FO had a 50% success rate last year. Can we expect the same this year? Which one bombs, Dockery or Walker?

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 02:29 PM
I actually was going to do a breakdown the individual weaknesses of the Miami line like I did a few months ago but I'm not sure who any of the starters are going to be at this point.

Neither can any of the Miami fans which makes any post about their line ridiculous at this point.

However, if any Miami fan would like to break it down, have at it.

You can use: Peters-Dockery-Fowler-Preston-Walker as our starters.

In addition, Butler (RT), Whittle (RG) and and Pennington (LT, even though he played RT last year) would all be in contention for starting jobs as starters in Miami.

I hate to break this to you but the Bills OL has many question marks. Why do you keep pretending that the Bills OL was anything other than terrible last season? They added an decent LG and a horrible RT to a very bad OL.

LT - solid
LG - solid
C - average
RG - below average
RT - 10.5 sacks allows last year. Bad. Bad. Bad.

The Fins have more question marks but that doesn't guarantee they will be worse.

PECKERWOOD
08-09-2007, 02:36 PM
Your FO had a 50% success rate last year. Can we expect the same this year? Which one bombs, Dockery or Walker?

Did Miami add any upcoming talent to their OL this year FinFanInBuffalo? Funny how you criticize our FO for actually attempting to fix and build our OL, your FO didn't do ****. Wow, you added a no name center and even if he were to succeed, you still don't have a decent LT to protect whatever crappy QB you choose to start. Green is going to get another concussion quick behind your OL. Even with your bull**** 50% success rate number it would still prove to be an upgrade over last years OL even if Dock or Walker were to fail. Derrrr...!

Did you pull that 50% success rate from out of your ass? Or unless you can determine if a player is going to be a bust with barely any playing time in a one-year span, I think you're talking purely from your poop shaft. Also, A-Train and Tripplett both proved to be quality addittions last year and to say otherwise proves to everyone on this forum that you didn't watch ANY Bills football last year.

Edit: Said Edwards instead of Green.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 03:00 PM
Did Miami add any upcoming talent to their OL this year FinFanInBuffalo? Funny how you criticize our FO for actually attempting to fix and build our OL, your FO didn't do ****. Wow, you added a no name center and even if he were to succeed, you still don't have a decent LT to protect whatever crappy QB you choose to start. Edwards is going to get another concussion quick behind your OL. Even with your bull**** 50% success rate number it would still prove to be an upgrade over last years OL even if Dock or Walker were to fail. Derrrr...!

Edwards? Perhaps you're expected Trent Edwards to start for the Bills and get his bell rung?

For the record, the Fins are building their OL via the draft. Their current starters are:

Carey - Mormino - Satele - Hadnot - Alabi

3 of them were not on the starting OL last year. By my count, thats MORE changes than the Bills made. Perhaps you should get some facts before typing. Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they won't be any good.


Did you pull that 50% success rate from out of your ass? Or unless you can determine if a player is going to be a bust with barely any playing time in a one-year span, I think you're talking purely from your poop shaft. Also, A-Train and Tripplett both proved to be quality addittions last year and to say otherwise proves to everyone on this forum that you didn't watch ANY Bills football last year.


We were talking about the FO addressing the OL. They added Fowler and Reyes last season. Fowler is the starting center. Reyes finished the season as third string. 1 out of 2 free agent moves on the OL last season worked. That's 50%.

Anthony Thomas had 378 yards rushing last season. Hardly anything to crow about. Tripplett was merely an average DT on a bad defense.

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 03:04 PM
Do the numbers 37 and 6 mean anything to you???

Jon

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 03:10 PM
The team is returning 9 starters from the #4 rated defense. They added Joey Porter and Matt Roth will step in for Kevin Carter. Clearly they can be very very good on defense. The Bills are years away from matching the Fins defensively.
.
Never said our D was better. Just stating potential down the road and when Zach , Porter and JT leave, we're ahead.




On offense, the Bills only averaged 2.6 more points per game than a very bad Fins offense. IMO, Losman is still a question mark. Lynch is a question mark. I don't like any of your receivers other than Lee Evans. The OL should be better but will still be a middle of the pack OL at best.

The Fins need the OL to play better than last season. On paper they match up very well against the Bills offense:

Green > Losman
Brown > Lynch
Fins WRs > Bills WRs
Fins OL < Bills OL
Fins TE > Bills TE.

and our O wasn't at full force either. JP was held back by the OC .

Sorry, Green WAS better but not last year. Jp is on his way up, Green is on his way down.

Brown is more proven than Lynch but I do like Lynch POTENTIAL better.

We shall see about who's wr's are better. Evans is better than anything you've got.


Who's your TE? Martin? the guy is more injury prone than Rob Johnson and when he's healthy he wasn't all that with Frave throwing to him. I also read that he's not cutting it at camp.




IMO, the two biggest problems last season on offense were the OC and the QB. Both are different and there for have a chance to be better. Despite my rankings by position, I give the edge to the Bills on offense because there has been more stability from last season, but lets not forget that the Bills were not that good last year.

Both are different and both are questionable still. Ours is not that much better but we've seen that our team has gotten better with time while yours hasn't shown anything under the new coaches.

I will never count the fins out. The jets were supposed to suck last year and didn't. Can't see why the fins can't get better.


But when all is said and done, you're gonna wish you have Wanny back. :D

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 03:13 PM
Do the numbers 37 and 6 mean anything to you???

Jon

They mean nothing this season.

Perhaps they should just not play the upcoming season. Just use the scores from last season. Guess what? The Bills finished 7-9. Jesus Christ from the way you spout off, you'd think the Bills finished 16-0 last season.

HERE IS A NEWS FLASH FOR YOU - We are debating whether TWO BAD teams did enough to get better this season. To claim that a 7-9 team is clearly better than a 6-10 team is ******ed.

Before you through the 37 and 6 numbers around again, consider that the Fins beat the Bears and Pats soundly last season. Does that make them better than the Bears and Pats? By your logic, you'd have to agree with that. Care to ellaborate?

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 03:15 PM
They mean nothing this season.

Perhaps they should just not play the upcoming season. Just use the scores from last season. Guess what? The Bills finished 7-9. Jesus Christ from the way you spout off, you'd think the Bills finished 16-0 last season.

HERE IS A NEWS FLASH FOR YOU - We are debating whether TWO BAD teams did enough to get better this season. To claim that a 7-9 team is clearly better than a 6-10 team is ******ed.

Before you through the 37 and 6 numbers around again, consider that the Fins beat the Bears and Pats soundly last season. Does that make them better than the Bears and Pats? By your logic, you'd have to agree with that. Care to ellaborate?


we shall see what Cam can do without LT, Chargers' OL, Gates, etc.

Your D can keep you in games but I doubt your O will do anything significant. That's just my UNBIASED ( :D ) opinion.

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 03:16 PM
They mean nothing this season.

Perhaps they should just not play the upcoming season. Just use the scores from last season. Guess what? The Bills finished 7-9. Jesus Christ from the way you spout off, you'd think the Bills finished 16-0 last season.



Never said they were 16-0. In fact, Buffalo was mediocre at best. But Buffal was better than Miami this year, and, barring major injuries or disasters unforeseen, will be better this year.

Interesting you say that the scores didn't mean anything last season when you say this:


Their offensive line was better than the Bills OL last season. Fewer sacks, better YPC by the RBs. Glass houses, glass houses......

IMO, the Bills OL was worse than the Fins last season. You keep claiming that the Fins QB will have no protection, but the Bills GAVE UP MORE SACKS LAST SEASON. I provided a link to back up my opinion. You have just talked smack.

I love how the off-season moves by the Bill on the OL automatically make them better but the moves by the Fins make them worse. Do I need to remind you about Tuten Reyes? You should be concerned about your GM's ability to judge OL talent.

Wasn't this discussion about the performance of the OLs? I posted a link from an unbiased site that ranked the Fins OL ahead of the Bills last season. What have you done beside spout jibberish?

Vernon Carey also received plenty of national recognition last season.

Fin fans are underestimating the impact of Langston Walker? Good luck with that.

The fact is that (despite a bad start) the Fins OL out performed the Bills OL last season. The numbers prove it. Outside sources back it up. BTW, Jason Peters played on that line. They gave up more sacks than the Fins despite attempting significantly fewer passes.

Fin fans don't underestimate the value of a good OL. Bills fans overestimate the impact of their yearly changes to the OL. Every year we hear that "this year we made changes that will give us a great OL". Every year. Last season if was Fowler and Reyes. Bills fans were convinced that the front office had solved the problem. Well ....... Before that it was Chris Villarrial. Before that it was Trey Teague and Mike Gandy. And on and on and on.

This year it is Dockery and Walker. Why not just let them play? The Bills OL is bad until it proves otherwise. That is all I'm saying.

You need to read up more on the Fins before you make statements. The Fins are likely to have 2 or 3 new starters on the line and all 5 players in new positions. How is that not giving the OL attention? They main difference is that Miami has been trying to rebuild the line via the draft. Depending on whether Alabi or Shelton starts at RT, the Fins OL may consist entirely of players drafted by the Fins (Carey, Mormino, Satele, Hadnot, Alabi).

Then to top it off, you then state this:


Fins OL < Bills OL

Interesting. Why don't you just go away until the Fish play the Bills? Your argument is nonsensical and no one on here agrees with you. How old are you? You act like you are 10 years old...

Jon

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 03:18 PM
Interesting you say that the scores didn't mean anything last season when you say this:



Then to top it off, you then state this:



Interesting. Why don't you just go away until the Fish play the Bills? Your argument is weak and no one on here agrees with you. How old are you? You act like you are 10 years old...

Jon


relax Jon. Whether you're a finfan ,browns ,Pitts , if you live in buffalo you're passionate about your team.

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 03:19 PM
Interesting you say that the scores didn't mean anything last season when you say this:



Then to top it off, you then state this:



Interesting. Why don't you just go away until the Fish play the Bills? Your argument is weak and no one on here agrees with you. How old are you? You act like you are 10 years old...

Jon


relax Jon. Whether you're a bills, finfan ,browns ,Pitts , if you live in buffalo you're passionate about your team. Take LT for instance. He's still a closet bills fan.

PECKERWOOD
08-09-2007, 03:20 PM
Edwards? Perhaps you're expected Trent Edwards to start for the Bills and get his bell rung?

For the record, the Fins are building their OL via the draft. Their current starters are:

Carey - Mormino - Satele - Hadnot - Alabi

3 of them were not on the starting OL last year. By my count, thats MORE changes than the Bills made. Perhaps you should get some facts before typing. Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they won't be any good.




We were talking about the FO addressing the OL. They added Fowler and Reyes last season. Fowler is the starting center. Reyes finished the season as third string. 1 out of 2 free agent moves on the OL last season worked. That's 50%.

Anthony Thomas had 378 yards rushing last season. Hardly anything to crow about. Tripplett was merely an average DT on a bad defense.



]Edwards? Perhaps you're expected Trent Edwards to start for the Bills and get his bell rung?

Actually, that was just a typo and I fixed it, thanks.



For the record, the Fins are building their OL via the draft. Their current starters are:

Carey - Mormino - Satele - Hadnot - Alabi

3 of them were not on the starting OL last year. By my count, thats MORE changes than the Bills made. Perhaps you should get some facts before typing. Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they won't be any good

Yes, you're starting OL sucks. And just because there are more changes, doesn't mean that it will make your line better, it depends on what kinda change. The difference is, the Bills added an emerging LG and a mammoth at RT, both of these players are veterans and young ones with unlimited potential at that.

Let's compare:

Carey - Mormino - Satele - Hadnot - Alabi

Peters - Dockery - Fowler - Preston - Walker

Let's see, compare a young upcoming LT in Jason Peters who is arguably the best LT in the AFC East to Vernon Carey a serviceable veteran at best.

Then we got a powerful road grader in Derrick Dockery who opened up holes for Portis and when he went down they still managed to pop out crazy runs with their backup running back to a freaking center who has to fill in at LG in Drew Mormino because your team has no talent on the OL! Let me also include that Mormino is a rookie and to say that he would be anywhere near Dockerys talent level now is completely ridiculous.

Veteran center Melvin Fowler who stepped up last year and did a great job working with Losman and getting his career on the right track to an unproven rookie center in Samson Satele. Once again, to claim Satele is going to be anything even close to what Fowler is, is completely ludicrous seeing as how he hasn't played a snap in the NFL.

Comparing Hadnot to Preston, this is the only area in Miami's OL that they may have an advantage. Hadnot has more game time experience but it isn't as bad as it seems because Preston has had a couple of seasons to work with McNally already.

Compare starting veteran RT Langston Walker who is a mammoth 6'8 360 lbs who can move his feet like a LB to backup OT Anthony Alabi who only is starting at RT because your usual starter in LJ Shelton is a fat ass who can't take care of his body in the offseason.

Our OL rapes yours.


Also, just because Reyes didn't stay long-term doesn't mean that he wasn't a valuable addition last year, there just weren't many other players that were better and available, other than Hutch anyways and to be frank, I could care less about him now that we got Dockery anyways. Plus, A-Train filled in admirably posting a couple 100 yard rushing games when called in as a backup. How many other backup RB's in the league that can rush for 100 yards a game on any given day can you name? Also, for the price that A-Train was signed at ( a little over veteran minimum.. ) I would consider him a huge addittion to our staggering running game last year.

Class is out.

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 03:20 PM
relax Jon. Whether you're a finfan ,browns ,Pitts , if you live in buffalo you're passionate about your team.

No, the guy is a non-Bills fans who is trying to be antagonistic and insult Bills fans by saying their statements (which are misquotes to boot) are "******ed." Frankly, that's offensive. He needs to know he can go pound sand with his lame arguments...

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 03:22 PM
Never said our D was better. Just stating potential down the road and when Zach , Porter and JT leave, we're ahead.

That day is surely coming.


and our O wasn't at full force either. JP was held back by the OC .

I've got two words for you - Mike Mularkey.


Sorry, Green WAS better but not last year. Jp is on his way up, Green is on his way down.

I'm not sold on Losman. I like Beck's potential more that JP's.


Brown is more proven than Lynch but I do like Lynch POTENTIAL better.

That's debatable, but at this point, Brown had put up a very respectable 4.3 YPC behind a suspect OL.


We shall see about who's wr's are better. Evans is better than anything you've got.

Evans is the best between the two teams, but I don't think any of the other WRs on the Bills make the Fins roster.


Who's your TE? Martin? the guy is more injury prone than Rob Johnson and when he's healthy he wasn't all that with Frave throwing to him. I also read that he's not cutting it at camp.

You need to check your sources. I hear Martin is doing fine.




Both are different and both are questionable still. Ours is not that much better but we've seen that our team has gotten better with time while yours hasn't shown anything under the new coaches.

I will never count the fins out. The jets were supposed to suck last year and didn't. Can't see why the fins can't get better.

Agreed.

But when all is said and done, you're gonna wish you have Wanny back. :D[/quote]

I'll take the record he put up in his first year....

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 03:22 PM
No, the guy is a non-Bills fans who is trying to be antagonistic and insult Bills fans by saying their statements (which are misquotes to boot) are "******ed." Frankly, that's offensive. He needs to know he can go pound sand with his lame arguments...

Jon
I didn't say he was well informed, just passionate.

Static
08-09-2007, 03:22 PM
relax Jon. Whether you're a bills, finfan ,browns ,Pitts , if you live in buffalo you're passionate about your team. Take LT for instance. He's still a closet bills fan.


To which LT are you refering?

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 03:23 PM
They mean nothing this season.

Perhaps they should just not play the upcoming season. Just use the scores from last season. Guess what? The Bills finished 7-9. Jesus Christ from the way you spout off, you'd think the Bills finished 16-0 last season.

HERE IS A NEWS FLASH FOR YOU - We are debating whether TWO BAD teams did enough to get better this season. To claim that a 7-9 team is clearly better than a 6-10 team is ******ed.

Before you through the 37 and 6 numbers around again, consider that the Fins beat the Bears and Pats soundly last season. Does that make them better than the Bears and Pats? By your logic, you'd have to agree with that. Care to ellaborate?

By the way, you never did answer the question directly. What do those two numbers tell you about last season? No bull**** rambling about stuff that doesn't answer the question either...

Jon

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 03:24 PM
To which LT are you refering?

the birthday boy.

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 03:25 PM
I didn't say he was well informed, just passionate.

That I definitely agree with!

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 03:27 PM
Never said they were 16-0. In fact, Buffalo was mediocre at best. But Buffal was better than Miami this year, and, barring major injuries or disasters unforeseen, will be better this year.

Interesting you say that the scores didn't mean anything last season when you say this:



Then to top it off, you then state this:



Interesting. Why don't you just go away until the Fish play the Bills? Your argument is nonsensical and no one on here agrees with you. How old are you? You act like you are 10 years old...

Jon

Why is it interesting? I give the Bills OL the nod because of the uncertainty surrounding the Fins OL.

The fact that the Fins OL was better than the Bills OL last season is still true.

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 03:30 PM
That day is surely coming. ....
sooner than later I hope.




I've got two words for you - Mike Mularkey.
....
we know



I'm not sold on Losman. I like Beck's potential more that JP's. ....fair enough. I actually think Beck=Edwards.





That's debatable, but at this point, Brown had put up a very respectable 4.3 YPC behind a suspect OL. ....
that's I I said he'll be a beast. I don't think he'll ever be able to carry Lych's jock in the passing game.




Evans is the best between the two teams, but I don't think any of the other WRs on the Bills make the Fins roster. ....
that's debatable.




You need to check your sources. I hear Martin is doing fine. ....
camp reviews on FH? Anyways , Martin hasn't done squat to say he's better than Royals as bad as some people here think Royals was last year. Should be an interesting year. It's my oinion that we will have a better TE corps when all is said and done.





I'll take the record he put up in his first year.... more like his last year :D

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 03:30 PM
Why is it interesting? I give the Bills OL the nod because of the uncertainty surrounding the Fins OL.

The fact that the Fins OL was better than the Bills OL last season is still true.

:rofl:

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 03:32 PM
By the way, you never did answer the question directly. What do those two numbers tell you about last season? No bull**** rambling about stuff that doesn't answer the question either...

Jon

It tells me that the Bills beat the Fins last season. And? The Fins had an up and down season last year. In the end, they were only one game worse than the Bills. Face it, 7-9 is just not that much different than 6-10. They both suck.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 03:34 PM
:rofl:

I backed my opinion up with facts and an independent web site that provides an analysis of OL play. What did you support your opinion with?

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 03:34 PM
It tells me that the Bills beat the Fins last season. And? The Fins had an up and down season last year. In the end, they were only one game worse than the Bills. Face it, 7-9 is just not that much different than 6-10. They both suck.

I'm going to totally blow your mind and shock you here.......





I agree with this statement.

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 03:36 PM
I backed my opinion up with facts and an independent web site that provides an analysis of OL play. What did you support your opinion with?

The Bills outscoring Miami 37-6 in two games last year including Vernon Carey (Miami's best offensive linemen) getting owned by Ryan Denney (3 sacks) in less than a game, and Chris Kelsay also getting a sack in that game against Carey. Also, Joey Harrington had a 0.0 quarterback rating in the second game. Miami scored no touchdowns against Buffalo in either game and ended up overhauling their offensive line because of its mediocre (bad) performance throughout the season.

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 03:39 PM
Actually, that was just a typo and I fixed it, thanks.



Yes, you're starting OL sucks. And just because there are more changes, doesn't mean that it will make your line better, it depends on what kinda change.

That's funny just one post ago you claimed that the Fins hadn't made any changes to the OL. Which do you really believe?


The difference is, the Bills added an emerging LG and a mammoth at RT, both of these players are veterans and young ones with unlimited potential at that.

Unlimited potential????? Too funny.


Let's compare:

Carey - Mormino - Satele - Hadnot - Alabi

Peters - Dockery - Fowler - Preston - Walker

Let's see, compare a young upcoming LT in Jason Peters who is arguably the best LT in the AFC East to Vernon Carey a serviceable veteran at best.

Then we got a powerful road grader in Derrick Dockery who opened up holes for Portis and when he went down they still managed to pop out crazy runs with their backup running back to a freaking center who has to fill in at LG in Drew Mormino because your team has no talent on the OL! Let me also include that Mormino is a rookie and to say that he would be anywhere near Dockerys talent level now is completely ridiculous.

Veteran center Melvin Fowler who stepped up last year and did a great job working with Losman and getting his career on the right track to an unproven rookie center in Samson Satele. Once again, to claim Satele is going to be anything even close to what Fowler is, is completely ludicrous seeing as how he hasn't played a snap in the NFL.

Comparing Hadnot to Preston, this is the only area in Miami's OL that they may have an advantage. Hadnot has more game time experience but it isn't as bad as it seems because Preston has had a couple of seasons to work with McNally already.

Compare starting veteran RT Langston Walker who is a mammoth 6'8 360 lbs who can move his feet like a LB to backup OT Anthony Alabi who only is starting at RT because your usual starter in LJ Shelton is a fat ass who can't take care of his body in the offseason.

Our OL rapes yours.


Also, just because Reyes didn't stay long-term doesn't mean that he wasn't a valuable addition last year, there just weren't many other players that were better and available, other than Hutch anyways and to be frank, I could care less about him now that we got Dockery anyways. Plus, A-Train filled in admirably posting a couple 100 yard rushing games when called in as a backup. How many other backup RB's in the league that can rush for 100 yards a game on any given day can you name? Also, for the price that A-Train was signed at ( a little over veteran minimum.. ) I would consider him a huge addittion to our staggering running game last year.

Class is out.

You are returning 3 players on an OL that gave up 47 sacks last season. One of the players you added gave up 10.5 sacks all by himself last season.

Clearly you are drinking the koolaid.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 03:42 PM
The Bills outscoring Miami 37-6 in two games last year including Vernon Carey (Miami's best offensive linemen) getting owned by Ryan Denney (3 sacks) in less than a game, and Chris Kelsay also getting a sack in that game against Carey. Also, Joey Harrington had a 0.0 quarterback rating in the second game. Miami scored no touchdowns against Buffalo in either game and ended up overhauling their offensive line because of its mediocre (bad) performance throughout the season.

Jon

So do the other 14 games not count? What are you not understanding when I point out that the Bills gave up more sacks and had a lower YPC average? Its really not that difficult to understand.

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 03:43 PM
So do the other 14 games not count? What are you not understanding when I point out that the Bills gave up more sacks and had a lower YPC average? Its really not that difficult to understand.

You must've been a real fun guy to be around when Buffalo played Miami last year..... :rofl:

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 03:51 PM
You must've been a real fun guy to be around when Buffalo played Miami last year..... :rofl:

Jon

The fact that the Bills were also bad made it bearable. Present company excepted, few Bills fans really want to cheer - "Hoorah! We suck a little less than the Dolphins!"

Honestly, after beating the Bears, and the Pats, I expected the Fins to win the second game. With Joey Harrington, you're never very far from a loss though.

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 03:54 PM
The fact that the Bills were also bad made it bearable. Present company excepted, few Bills fans really want to cheer - "Hoorah! We suck a little less than the Dolphins!"

Honestly, after beating the Bears, and the Pats, I expected the Fins to win the second game. With Joey Harrington, you're never very far from a loss though.

:rofl: Nice to know it's "bearable" for you watching your team getting your ass handed to you by the "lowly" Bills.

New argument: who has the better offensive line, the Miami Dolphins or University of Buffalo Bulls? Probably closer than you'd like to admit...

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 03:59 PM
:rofl: Nice to know it's "bearable" for you watching your team getting your ass handed to you by the "lowly" Bills.

New argument: who has the better offensive line, the Miami Dolphins or University of Buffalo Bulls? Probably closer than you'd like to admit...

Jon

Luckily the Bills sucked so bad that the home games were blacked out.

BTW, the Fins scored a TD in the first game. IMO, they shoud have won that game, but Culpepper played bad and Mularkey is an idiot. Only his play calling could stop Ronnie Brown that day.

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 04:03 PM
Luckily the Bills sucked so bad that the home games were blacked out.

It's probably just as well.

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 04:14 PM
It's probably just as well.

Jon

I would have been shopping for a new TV on December 18th......

HHURRICANE
08-09-2007, 04:16 PM
I hate to break this to you but the Bills OL has many question marks. Why do you keep pretending that the Bills OL was anything other than terrible last season? They added an decent LG and a horrible RT to a very bad OL.

LT - solid
LG - solid
C - average
RG - below average
RT - 10.5 sacks allows last year. Bad. Bad. Bad.

The Fins have more question marks but that doesn't guarantee they will be worse.

The OL we started with was not the one we finished with so unless you have stats from week 9 to the end of the season than you really don't know what you are talking about. Fowler was the only player that finished the season where he started.

I can argue about our LT and LG being a little better than "solid". Fowler, I would say "average" is fair.

In regards to RG and RT. We have a ton of depth fighting for 2 positions. I know one thing for sure and that is Langston Walker never sucked at RG. If he struggles at RT he can easily be moved over because we have Pennington, Merz, or Butler waiting in the wings. In addition, Whittle and Preston are both RG starters with the same group sitting behind them as well.

Do your home work before posting here.

Nice job avoiding who the starters are on Miami's O-line. Post again when you can tell me.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 04:44 PM
The OL we started with was not the one we finished with so unless you have stats from week 9 to the end of the season than you really don't know what you are talking about. Fowler was the only player that finished the season where he started.

The Bills gave up 26 sacks from week 9 to the end of the season. That's 2.9 per game. For the season they had 47 (2.9 per game). McGahee's YPC was not much different either. Perhaps you should do a little research before claiming that others don't know what they are talking about.




I can argue about our LT and LG being a little better than "solid". Fowler, I would say "average" is fair.

So my rankings were not too biased.


In regards to RG and RT. We have a ton of depth fighting for 2 positions. I know one thing for sure and that is Langston Walker never sucked at RG. If he struggles at RT he can easily be moved over because we have Pennington, Merz, or Butler waiting in the wings. In addition, Whittle and Preston are both RG starters with the same group sitting behind them as well.

All you've shown is that the Bills have a bunch of players filling roster spots. None of the players in the mix at RG and RT have done anything in their careers. The only one with a track record is Walker and it is BAD.



Do your home work before posting here.

You were saying?


Nice job avoiding who the starters are on Miami's O-line. Post again when you can tell me.

I think they will be:

Carey - Mormino - Satele - Hadnot - Shelton

Reports from camp have been very good for Carey and Satele. Mormino is beating out a vet with plenty of playing experience. Hadnot is a decent starting guard. Shelton will be fine at RT. I'll take him over Walker any day.

There are several other competing for the starting spots. Personally, I'd like to see Anthony Alabi get the start at RT and allow Shelton to back up the RG and RT spots. Chris Liwienski provides excellent depth at both guard and tackle.

My bigger concern is depth and LT and C, but most teams have that problem.

HHURRICANE
08-09-2007, 04:51 PM
My bigger concern is depth and LT and C, but most teams have that problem.

We don't.

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 04:56 PM
I backed my opinion up with facts and an independent web site that provides an analysis of OL play. What did you support your opinion with?
whats your opinion of mcnally and houck?

Mudflap1
08-09-2007, 04:57 PM
This is slightly off topic (but not much), but let's not ballyhoo Willis McGahee's statistics one way or another. While talented, the guy was an absolute underachieving, disinterested slug when he was here. He should not be the barometer by which an entire team should be judged.

Frankly, I'd say the same if he ran for 1200 yards and had a 4.2 YPC. But then, we may not have gotten rid of him in that case either.

Jon

HHURRICANE
08-09-2007, 05:08 PM
The Bills gave up 26 sacks from week 9 to the end of the season. That's 2.9 per game. For the season they had 47 (2.9 per game). McGahee's YPC was not much different either. Perhaps you should do a little research before claiming that others don't know what they are talking about.


I should have seen this coming.

I'm guessing JP's fumble numbers dropping, his passing % improving, and his YPA moving up couldn't have been attributed to having more time in the pocket?

That's why you have to watch the games.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 05:52 PM
I should have seen this coming.

I'm guessing JP's fumble numbers dropping, his passing % improving, and his YPA moving up couldn't have been attributed to having more time in the pocket?

That's why you have to watch the games.

Perhaps by then he had learned to better deal with playing behind a poor OL......

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 05:53 PM
whats your opinion of mcnally and houck?

Both are highly regarded around the league. IMO, Houck has done a better job over the last two years, but it is very difficult to compare the two.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 06:37 PM
We don't.

Right....

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 06:40 PM
I should have seen this coming.

What facts? You're right, you should have seen it coming.


I'm guessing JP's fumble numbers dropping, his passing % improving, and his YPA moving up couldn't have been attributed to having more time in the pocket?

So the OL is responsible for JP's improved play???? Who is responsible for the continued high sack count and low YPC? JP?


That's why you have to watch the games.

Perhaps you should drink less when watching.

PECKERWOOD
08-09-2007, 08:05 PM
That's funny just one post ago you claimed that the Fins hadn't made any changes to the OL. Which do you really believe?



Unlimited potential????? Too funny.



You are returning 3 players on an OL that gave up 47 sacks last season. One of the players you added gave up 10.5 sacks all by himself last season.

Clearly you are drinking the koolaid.



That's funny just one post ago you claimed that the Fins hadn't made any changes to the OL. Which do you really believe?


They didn't make any changes that are going to make them better, that's what I believe. You made changes that aren't going to help you at all. Funny how you nitpick for the sake of arguing, you know damn well what I meant and this is just a tribute to you being wrong.


Unlimited potential????? Too funny.

Yeah, it's going to be even funnier when we run all over you this year.



You are returning 3 players on an OL that gave up 47 sacks last season. One of the players you added gave up 10.5 sacks all by himself last season.

Clearly you are drinking the koolaid.

Really? Clearly you're reading straight off of NFL.com because I stumped you so good you had to google a response to try and counteract my thesis. Hilarious. Tell me FinFanInBuffalo, will you be back here eating crow when our OL clearly out performs Miami's this year? I'll be here. Plus, in response to your "sack stats", what happened is our OL rotation got screwed up midway through the season because Mike Gandy and Tutan Reyes (which who you clearly pointed out earlier was a "FO bust") under performed and they were benched! Hell, we switched our RT to LT midway through the season and we had a 7th round rookie starting at RT! Ofcourse they're going to give up sacks, they haven't had time to mature. While you can pull out as many bull**** stats as you want, atleast I actually know whats going on and why certain stats are what they are.

Take your time, google up some more stats for me smart guy, I'll be waiting. You got torn up worst than a hooker at a bachelors party. I'm not sure how many people have to ***** slap you before you will get it.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-09-2007, 08:58 PM
They didn't make any changes that are going to make them better, that's what I believe. You made changes that aren't going to help you at all. Funny how you nitpick for the sake of arguing, you know damn well what I meant and this is just a tribute to you being wrong.

??? Now you're clarvoiyant???



Really? Clearly you're reading straight off of NFL.com because I stumped you so good you had to google a response to try and counteract my thesis. Hilarious.

You "stumped me" into proving you wrong? I'm sure that somehow makes sense to you.



Plus, in response to your "sack stats", what happened is our OL rotation got screwed up midway through the season because Mike Gandy and Tutan Reyes (which who you clearly pointed out earlier was a "FO bust") under performed and they were benched! Hell, we switched our RT to LT midway through the season and we had a 7th round rookie starting at RT! Ofcourse they're going to give up sacks, they haven't had time to mature. While you can pull out as many bull**** stats as you want, atleast I actually know whats going on and why certain stats are what they are.

Your "excuse" is that your OL sucked because the starters weren't good enough and there was no depth behind them. That somehow makes you feel better? WTF? Perhaps you should stop trying to defend your team.


Take your time, google up some more stats for me smart guy, I'll be waiting. You got torn up worst than a hooker at a bachelors party. I'm not sure how many people have to ***** slap you before you will get it.

?? Allrighty then.....

justasportsfan
08-09-2007, 09:55 PM
Both are highly regarded around the league. IMO, Houck has done a better job over the last two years, but it is very difficult to compare the two.
since you speak highly of both then why is it you doubt McNally's choice after he scouted Walker? MCnally pretty much said Walker did his job with the raiders pretty well. I guess it's a matter of credibility. You source Or a coach who's not far off compared to your OL couch. Shouldn't you give a proven OL coach the benefit of a doubt that he studied and knew what he was getting when he brought in Walker? After all he only knows how to create the best LT in the AFCE.

PECKERWOOD
08-09-2007, 10:38 PM
??? Now you're clarvoiyant???




You "stumped me" into proving you wrong? I'm sure that somehow makes sense to you.




Your "excuse" is that your OL sucked because the starters weren't good enough and there was no depth behind them. That somehow makes you feel better? WTF? Perhaps you should stop trying to defend your team.



?? Allrighty then.....


Now you're clarvoiyant???

No, now I'm Tedy Bruschi. I'm not going to start my every statement with "my prediction is..", that is just ******ed. What I say is what I say. If you can't decipher opinions from facts then you shouldn't be on ANY message boards. It's not like in order to post you have to abide by the same rules that journalists do.



You "stumped me" into proving you wrong? I'm sure that somehow makes sense to you.


It's funny, that's how you know somebodies argument is dead, they have to use google before every response. Go dig up another ******ed stat and post it as your response, Einstein. You're a waste of time. If you actually watched last years games, why would you need to use google to dig up bullcrap statistics? Can't make up your mind on your own? Need a search engines help? Your so smart.


Your "excuse" is that your OL sucked because the starters weren't good enough and there was no depth behind them. That somehow makes you feel better? WTF? Perhaps you should stop trying to defend your team.

No jackass. I'm saying that Gandy and Reyes BLEW it last year, which in return affected our WHOLE offensive line. They work as a unit, one star player means nothing on an offensive line in which the other 4 starters blow. This is last years offensive line you're talking about. We're talking about THIS years offensive line. + <ENTER><ENTER>Dockery and Walker. - <EXIT><EXIT>Gandy and Reyes. This is how we got better you tool. You said we had a 50% success rate ( which in itself is a bullcrap statistic that is inaccurate and doesn't speak the whole truth.. ) but even with that success rate we would automatically be upgraded from LAST years OL. What part of this don't you understand? Is there anything inside of that thick cranium of yours? We got rid of the bad apples from last year and added fresh new upcoming veteran talent, how does this hurt us? Derr.

You're probably one of those tools that looked at Oakland's OL last year and because they gave up sacks and they didn't run effectively, you've dubbed every single player on that unit as a bad player. The fact of the matter is, you know NOTHING about Walker and you're speaking out of your ass. Go google up some more statistics so you can pretend to be smart.

Hell, I'm not even going to defend Dockery, there is no need to. You can't prove to me or anyone else here that he is a bad player, you've convinced NOBODY with your argument. What does that tell ya?


And let's bring this discussion to an end. Compare our current OL starters, to your current OL starters. Just highlight 'x' players name if you think their better than the other starter at their respective position. That way you can't change the subject anymore.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-10-2007, 07:17 AM
No, now I'm Tedy Bruschi. I'm not going to start my every statement with "my prediction is..", that is just ******ed. What I say is what I say. If you can't decipher opinions from facts then you shouldn't be on ANY message boards. It's not like in order to post you have to abide by the same rules that journalists do.



It's funny, that's how you know somebodies argument is dead, they have to use google before every response. Go dig up another ******ed stat and post it as your response, Einstein. You're a waste of time. If you actually watched last years games, why would you need to use google to dig up bullcrap statistics? Can't make up your mind on your own? Need a search engines help? Your so smart.
I see your approach..... ignore facts, put on homer glasses, drink the koolaid, and spout nonsense on message boards. Well, you're right on track.


No jackass. I'm saying that Gandy and Reyes BLEW it last year, which in return affected our WHOLE offensive line. They work as a unit, one star player means nothing on an offensive line in which the other 4 starters blow. This is last years offensive line you're talking about. We're talking about THIS years offensive line. + <enter><enter>Dockery and Walker. - <exit><exit>Gandy and Reyes. This is how we got better you tool. You said we had a 50% success rate ( which in itself is a bullcrap statistic that is inaccurate and doesn't speak the whole truth.. ) but even with that success rate we would automatically be upgraded from LAST years OL. What part of this don't you understand? Is there anything inside of that thick cranium of yours? We got rid of the bad apples from last year and added fresh new upcoming veteran talent, how does this hurt us? Derr. </exit></exit></enter></enter> <enter><enter><exit><exit>

Where did I ever say that the Bill didn't get better on the OL this year? I've already stated that I think they will be a little better than the Fins OL. The argument was over who had the better line LAST SEASON. Please try to keep up.......

Regarding the 50% success rate - I'll try to go slowly for you. The Buffalo Bills front office brought in two free agent offensive linemen last season (Fowler and Reyes) and two free agent offensive linemen this season (Dockery and Walker). Are you with me so far? You want to assume that both Dockery and Walker will be upgrades over the players that you had last season. Still with me? I merely showed that you cannot assume that because only 1 of the 2 free agents from last season were successful. That is a 50% success rate. If you still are having trouble understanding logic, go ask your mommy.



</exit></exit></enter></enter>
<enter><enter><exit><exit> You're probably one of those tools that looked at Oakland's OL last year and because they gave up sacks and they didn't run effectively, you've dubbed every single player on that unit as a bad player. The fact of the matter is, you know NOTHING about Walker and you're speaking out of your ass. Go google up some more statistics so you can pretend to be smart.</exit></exit></enter></enter> <enter><enter><exit><exit>
No, clearly they are all allpro players. Every one. Good selection by the Bills. He'll be playing right along side Reyes.....

You seem to have a real hangup over people seeming smart. You should understand there is a difference between intelligent and informed. I happen to be both. You, I'm not sure about.....

</exit></exit></enter></enter>
<enter><enter><exit><exit> Hell, I'm not even going to defend Dockery, there is no need to. You can't prove to me or anyone else here that he is a bad player, you've convinced NOBODY with your argument. What does that tell ya?


And let's bring this discussion to an end. Compare our current OL starters, to your current OL starters. Just highlight 'x' players name if you think their better than the other starter at their respective position. That way you can't change the subject anymore.
Carey < Peters
Mormino < Dockery
Satele = Fowler
Hadnot > Preston
Shelton or Alabi > Walker

Looks like a tie to me, but I give the Bills the edge because so many Dolphin players are in new positions and they are learning a new offensive system.

I think the Fins have better depth so injuries can change things quickly. Also, if the Fins end up with Pete Kendel, he is = to Dockery and then the Fins have the better OL, so stay tuned.





</exit></exit></enter></enter>

FinFaninBuffalo
08-10-2007, 07:32 AM
since you speak highly of both then why is it you doubt McNally's choice after he scouted Walker? MCnally pretty much said Walker did his job with the raiders pretty well. I guess it's a matter of credibility. You source Or a coach who's not far off compared to your OL couch. Shouldn't you give a proven OL coach the benefit of a doubt that he studied and knew what he was getting when he brought in Walker? After all he only knows how to create the best LT in the AFCE.

Do you give Houck the same benefit of the doubt? If so, Carey will be the equal of Peters, Alabi will be a star, Satele and Mormino are quality starters, and Hadnot is all set at RG.

As to McNally's expertise in scouting the OL, I offer the following things to think about:

1. Tuten Reyes
2. Mike Gandy
3. Lawrence Smith
4. Dylan McFarland
5. Greg Jerman
6. McNally isn't the GM
7. You can only choose from the FAs that are available
8. They've been bad every year he has been with the Bills

mysticsoto
08-10-2007, 08:03 AM
<enter><enter><exit><exit></exit></exit></enter></enter>
Carey < Peters
Mormino < Dockery
Satele = Fowler
Hadnot > Preston
Shelton or Alabi > Walker


Aren't they moving Mormino to RG? I thought I read that somewhere.

Satele has good potential, but you can't automatically equate him with a veteran without him ever have taken a snap in a real NFL game. And as a rookie, he's likely to make mistakes anyway. He still has to be rated < Fowler.

Shelton better than Walker??? I know Shelton is not starting for you now, but still, Shelton is a loser. And Alabi missed all of the minicamps from the Fins this summer and just recently hurt his knee this past Monday. At worst, we are equal in this position also - though I still would give Walker a slight edge if only b'cse he is a huge guy (366 lbs) but not fat at that size. So nobody is going to be bulldozing and moving him around. A DE's only chance will be to run around him, but he's got quick feet for a man his size and I think he may give Ends some trouble...

BleedinGreenNC
08-10-2007, 08:37 AM
What I'm hearing is that John Beck looks like crap. Throwing INTs left and right.

From what i have read over at FH, Beck is the next coming of Marino.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-10-2007, 08:46 AM
Aren't they moving Mormino to RG? I thought I read that somewhere.

Satele has good potential, but you can't automatically equate him with a veteran without him ever have taken a snap in a real NFL game. And as a rookie, he's likely to make mistakes anyway. He still has to be rated < Fowler.

Shelton better than Walker??? I know Shelton is not starting for you now, but still, Shelton is a loser. And Alabi missed all of the minicamps from the Fins this summer and just recently hurt his knee this past Monday. At worst, we are equal in this position also - though I still would give Walker a slight edge if only b'cse he is a huge guy (366 lbs) but not fat at that size. So nobody is going to be bulldozing and moving him around. A DE's only chance will be to run around him, but he's got quick feet for a man his size and I think he may give Ends some trouble...

The current lineup is Carey - Mormino - Satele - Hadnot - Alabi

Fowler is just okay at center. The reports from camp have been extremely good on Satele. They like him enough to move Hadnot to guard. Hadnot played as well as Fowler last season.

Shelton played really well at RG last season. Langston Walker was unbelievably bad last season. He is credited with allowing 10.5 sacks. Clearly DEs are finding a way to the QB. The Bills had another huge RT two years ago. He was even more highly regarded than Walker. How'd that work out?

Anyway you look at it, the OLs are not that different from one another. Both have had changes and neither was very good last season.

mysticsoto
08-10-2007, 09:36 AM
The current lineup is Carey - Mormino - Satele - Hadnot - Alabi

Fowler is just okay at center. The reports from camp have been extremely good on Satele. They like him enough to move Hadnot to guard. Hadnot played as well as Fowler last season.

Shelton played really well at RG last season. Langston Walker was unbelievably bad last season. He is credited with allowing 10.5 sacks. Clearly DEs are finding a way to the QB. The Bills had another huge RT two years ago. He was even more highly regarded than Walker. How'd that work out?

Anyway you look at it, the OLs are not that different from one another. Both have had changes and neither was very good last season.

Perhaps, but here's a few differences between us...our left side will be much more dominant than your left side. That alone makes our Oline better than yours!!! Period!!!

And you may consider Walker bad in terms of the sacks he gave up last year, but in run blocking, he has and will excel!!!

Oh, and Shelton was not going to play RG this season. He was going to be moved back to Tackle where he sucked, and is sucking so much at his current weight that he was demoted to 2nd string. I wouldn't sound so proud of having this journeyman on your roster who teams kept dumping b'cse he's no good...

justasportsfan
08-10-2007, 09:43 AM
Do you give Houck the same benefit of the doubt? If so, Carey will be the equal of Peters, Alabi will be a star, Satele and Mormino are quality starters, and Hadnot is all set at RG.

As to McNally's expertise in scouting the OL, I offer the following things to think about:

1. Tuten Reyes
2. Mike Gandy
3. Lawrence Smith
4. Dylan McFarland
5. Greg Jerman
6. McNally isn't the GM
7. You can only choose from the FAs that are available
8. They've been bad every year he has been with the Bills


What I think of Houck does not matter. You can't give props to the guy and then turn around and say he made a mistake by bringing in Walker . Just so you know McNally has said that 10.5 sacks were not his fault. Care to disagree?

Other than Reyes, those were garbage handed to him by TD and expected to turn into gold. Your OL has been horrible since Houck has been there too.

Funny how you intentionally left out Bennie Anderson because Houck hired him after he became McNAlly's garbage.

BleedinGreenNC
08-10-2007, 09:44 AM
If i had to pick, i would say that Buffalo has upgraded their Oline better than the Fins. Now, i also think that the guys you got were overpaid, but they will work out in your system.

justasportsfan
08-10-2007, 09:47 AM
HOw I wished we were playing the fins in the 1st game.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-10-2007, 11:17 AM
What I think of Houck does not matter. You can't give props to the guy and then turn around and say he made a mistake by bringing in Walker .

Of course I can. We've had this debate before. Talent scouting and coaching are two different things. BTW, the Bills OL has sucked since McNally has been the coach.


Just so you know McNally has said that 10.5 sacks were not his fault. Care to disagree?

Walker gets sacks attributed to him just like all of the other linemen in the league.


Other than Reyes, those were garbage handed to him by TD and expected to turn into gold. Your OL has been horrible since Houck has been there too.

So when you like the player, McNally hand picked them. When you don't like the player, TD was an idiot..... nice.


Funny how you intentionally left out Bennie Anderson because Houck hired him after he became McNAlly's garbage.

Both NcNally and Houck were OL coaches when their teams signed Benny up. The difference is that the Bill paid more for him than the Fins did.

FinFaninBuffalo
08-10-2007, 11:21 AM
If i had to pick, i would say that Buffalo has upgraded their Oline better than the Fins. Now, i also think that the guys you got were overpaid, but they will work out in your system.

I'm glad the Fins are finally trying to build an OL through the draft. I'm tired of the revolving door of veterans. Buffalo apparently still thinks they can buy an OL via FA. Time will tell which approach is better.

My biggest complaint with the Fins for the last three years is that every year the OL starts out bad and gets better by the end of the year. That has fans thinking that the following year should be decent, only to have the line revamped again. I just want the team to show a little more patience.

justasportsfan
08-10-2007, 01:13 PM
Of course I can. We've had this debate before. Talent scouting and coaching are two different things. BTW, the Bills OL has sucked since McNally has been the coach.



Walker gets sacks attributed to him just like all of the other linemen in the league.



So when you like the player, McNally hand picked them. When you don't like the player, TD was an idiot..... nice.



Both NcNally and Houck were OL coaches when their teams signed Benny up. The difference is that the Bill paid more for him than the Fins did.


Haha! thought so. A well thought out BIASED opinion. FTP leaves and look who shows up.

I wasn't talking about who overpaid for Bennie. Nice attempt to switch the subject on Benny. Was merelt pointing out how you conveniently left him out because it shows you guys went through our garbage.

It's common knowledge that TD did in fact ignore the OL and the fins should know this since you brought in Bennie and found out for yourself. I never denied that our OL has sucked since McNally. So has your Ol under Houck but ours is better :D.




I guess in time we shall see. No need to play a pissing contest. Seasons upon us and my guess is, you'll disappear again once the bills proves to be a better team than the fins. It won't be long.

Mudflap1
08-10-2007, 01:51 PM
Now now justa, as a wise man once told me (a couple days ago), arguing with this guy is not worth getting too upset over. Consider the source.

Jon

FinFaninBuffalo
08-10-2007, 01:55 PM
Haha! thought so. A well thought out BIASED opinion. FTP leaves and look who shows up.

I wasn't talking about who overpaid for Bennie. Nice attempt to switch the subject on Benny. Was merelt pointing out how you conveniently left him out because it shows you guys went through our garbage.

Houck was in the process of turning Benny into a probowl player until he got hurt. :whistling


It's common knowledge that TD did in fact ignore the OL

He didn't ignore the OL. He spent the 4th pick in the draft on a tackle and brought in many many free agents. The Bill have made changes every year. I tried to tell you for years that TD was a bad GM, you wouldn't listen.


and the fins should know this since you brought in Bennie and found out for yourself. I never denied that our OL has sucked since McNally. So has your Ol under Houck but ours is better .

Yours is better on paper every year.



I guess in time we shall see. No need to play a pissing contest. Seasons upon us and my guess is, you'll disappear again once the bills proves to be a better team than the fins. It won't be long.

BTW, remember my prediction a few years back that this would be another decade of more seasons at or below 0.500 than winning seasons for the Bills? Well there at six this decade and there are still 3 seasons to go..... go Bills.....

FinFaninBuffalo
08-10-2007, 01:55 PM
Now now justa, as a wise man once told me (a couple days ago), arguing with this guy is not worth getting too upset over. Consider the source.

Jon

Justa and I go way back on Finheaven. It's all good.

justasportsfan
08-10-2007, 02:15 PM
Houck was in the process of turning Benny into a probowl player until he got hurt. :whistling



He didn't ignore the OL. He spent the 4th pick in the draft on a tackle and brought in many many free agents. The Bill have made changes every year. I tried to tell you for years that TD was a bad GM, you wouldn't listen.



Yours is better on paper every year.




BTW, remember my prediction a few years back that this would be another decade of more seasons at or below 0.500 than winning seasons for the Bills? Well there at six this decade and there are still 3 seasons to go..... go Bills.....


Haha! on bennie

One drafted pick on Mike WIlliams and continuing to stick with him does not make it addressing the OL. His sticking with MIke was a way for him not to admit his mistakes.

TD wasn't bad in bringing in players, it was his ego that was his problem.

I don't remember you prediction but hey , your team is the worst in the AFCE and will continue to stay there :D.

justasportsfan
08-10-2007, 02:16 PM
Now now justa, as a wise man once told me (a couple days ago), arguing with this guy is not worth getting too upset over. Consider the source.

Jon


He's cool Jon. Biased but cool. Oh and yeah , the only living Wanny fan :snicker:

FinFaninBuffalo
08-10-2007, 02:18 PM
He's cool Jon. Biased but cool. Oh and yeah , the only living Wanny fan :snicker:

Admit it, you'd sell your mother for an 11-5 season.....

justasportsfan
08-10-2007, 02:21 PM
Admit it, you'd sell your mother for an 11-5 season.....
Don't have to , the bills are going 13-3 :whistling

Mudflap1
08-10-2007, 02:23 PM
He's cool Jon. Biased but cool. Oh and yeah , the only living Wanny fan :snicker:

Shlongstedt??? :rofl:

MiamiFins854
08-10-2007, 04:14 PM
the reason running backs don't do great in training camp is because they can't go all out like they would in a game. wait for the season to start talking your trash

mysticsoto
09-03-2007, 07:33 AM
Do you give Houck the same benefit of the doubt? If so, Carey will be the equal of Peters, Alabi will be a star, Satele and Mormino are quality starters, and Hadnot is all set at RG.

As to McNally's expertise in scouting the OL, I offer the following things to think about:

1. Tuten Reyes
2. Mike Gandy
3. Lawrence Smith
4. Dylan McFarland
5. Greg Jerman
6. McNally isn't the GM
7. You can only choose from the FAs that are available
8. They've been bad every year he has been with the Bills
Looks like Mormino...your quality starter :rolleyes: is out for the year...
____________________________________________________________
Dolphins Mormino out for season

Rookie Drew Mormino, drafted in the sixth round out of Central Michigan but challenging throughout the preseason for a starting offensive guard job, won't play this season after the Dolphins placed him on injured reserve Sunday.
This solidifies nine-year veteran Chris Liwienski and former starting center Rex Hadnot as the starting guards. Early in camp, Mormino and Liwienski were the starting guards. But, by the second week, Hadnot had been put back on the first team, while Mormino and Liwienski were pitted in competition for the left guard position.

http://www.miamiherald.com/616/story/223935.html

Dolphanzeke
09-03-2007, 08:19 AM
Looks like Mormino...your quality starter :rolleyes: is out for the year...
____________________________________________________________
Dolphins Mormino out for season

Rookie Drew Mormino, drafted in the sixth round out of Central Michigan but challenging throughout the preseason for a starting offensive guard job, won't play this season after the Dolphins placed him on injured reserve Sunday.
This solidifies nine-year veteran Chris Liwienski and former starting center Rex Hadnot as the starting guards. Early in camp, Mormino and Liwienski were the starting guards. But, by the second week, Hadnot had been put back on the first team, while Mormino and Liwienski were pitted in competition for the left guard position.

http://www.miamiherald.com/616/story/223935.htmlpffft who cares about Mormino...we got some guy called Lekkerkerkerkerker...championship!

Ickybaluky
09-03-2007, 08:35 AM
A more appropriate palce for this thread would probably be the NFL Forum

Earthquake Enyart
09-03-2007, 08:45 AM
A more appropriate palce for this thread would probably be the NFL Forum
No. Fins suck threads are allowed.

shelby
09-03-2007, 08:46 AM
No, they are not.

Earthquake Enyart
09-03-2007, 08:52 AM
Sure they are.

shelby
09-03-2007, 08:53 AM
You are not the boss of me.
:shakeno:

Earthquake Enyart
09-03-2007, 08:54 AM
You are not the boss of me.
:shakeno:
No. Lecter and bufftp are. :rofl:

!Papacrunk!
09-03-2007, 08:55 AM
EE is a funny guy. Keep up the entertainment man!