Spikes, Fletcher, Clements and McGahee!

[Patrick76777]

I know most people are getting excited about the season. And contrary to what a few others think, it's totally acceptable to be excited and have high expectations at the start of a new season.

But others think we have no shot because of the losses of Spikes, Fletcher, Clements and McGahee!.

Then it hit me last night. Although these guys that we got rid of had a ton of talent, we won NOTHING with them. And they let us down every time we had a big game.

Is it really a loss when we get rid of 4 guys that couldn't win and we replace them with younger/hungrier players?

Where was Clements against J-ville in the 04 opener?
Spikes has played maybe 8 games in the past 2 years and had 1 Sack and 1 forced fumble all of last year.

Maybe Fletcher and Spikes could have tackled Willie Parker in week 17 vs. Pittsburgh or tackle Young at the end of the first half on Christmas Eve last year.

Why did Willis not get the 4th and 1 in New England in week 1 last year and then not seem to care about it.

In fact, Willis didn't care about anything.

Spikes has never been on a good team.

And it's perfectly normal and acceptable to have loved these guys and to have stuck up for these guys while they were here, but then to see their faults after they leave.

Let's not act like we lost Joe Montana, Deion Sanders, Emmitt Smith and Charles Haley. (Guys that won just about everywhere they were).

We gave these guys chance after chance after chance to come thru for us and they failed each time.

Esp. in 2004, when we actually had a good team and these guys couldn't get it done.

Out with the old and in with the new! I'm ready to move on.

And that's a 180 from the start of the off-season when I wanted to resign our own guys.

and again, it's OK to change your mind.

[Earthquake Enyart]

I have a man crush on you Pat.

[RockStar36]

:bf1:

Excellent post!

I feel the loss of Clements will be hard to deal with but the others won't be a big deal, or at least not as big of a deal as some people think. But even with all his talent, you bring up a great point. We didn't win **** with him here so is it really going to be that huge of a loss?

[Patrick76777]

I have a man crush on you Pat.


I'm getting pumped for some football!

Monday - My tickets came in
Tuesday - Watched highlights of the night practice
Wednesday - Team yearbook


In the next 8 days we'll have Thurman going into the hall and an actual game.

[El Guapo]

Just a thought, but do you think Marv letting the veterans and "leaders" go was a move to bring new team leadership to the forefront? In particular, Evans and Lossman. Now, I realize these losses were on D, but I am talking about team leadership, on the field and in the locker room. Some of the "new" guys, by default, must become the leaders.

Just a thought.

[OpIv37]

I know most people are getting excited about the season. And contrary to what a few others think, it's totally acceptable to be excited and have high expectations at the start of a new season.

But others think we have no shot because of the losses of Spikes, Fletcher, Clements and McGahee!.

Then it hit me last night. Although these guys that we got rid of had a ton of talent, we won NOTHING with them. And they let us down every time we had a big game.

Is it really a loss when we get rid of 4 guys that couldn't win and we replace them with younger/hungrier players?

Where was Clements against J-ville in the 04 opener?
Spikes has played maybe 8 games in the past 2 years and had 1 Sack and 1 forced fumble all of last year.

Maybe Fletcher and Spikes could have tackled Willie Parker in week 17 vs. Pittsburgh or tackle Young at the end of the first half on Christmas Eve last year.

Why did Willis not get the 4th and 1 in New England in week 1 last year and then not seem to care about it.

In fact, Willis didn't care about anything.

Spikes has never been on a good team.

And it's perfectly normal and acceptable to have loved these guys and to have stuck up for these guys while they were here, but then to see their faults after they leave.

Let's not act like we lost Joe Montana, Deion Sanders, Emmitt Smith and Charles Haley. (Guys that won just about everywhere they were).

We gave these guys chance after chance after chance to come thru for us and they failed each time.

Esp. in 2004, when we actually had a good team and these guys couldn't get it done.

Out with the old and in with the new! I'm ready to move on.

And that's a 180 from the start of the off-season when I wanted to resign our own guys.

and again, it's OK to change your mind.

you're making a faulty assumption: different isn't necessarily better. "Younger and hungrier" does not mean more talented, and I have a hard time believing anyone in the NFL is hungrier than Takeo Spikes (well, maybe Sam Adams but that's a different kind of hunger). Ellison and DiGiorgio were part of last year's crap-tacular D as well, and the DL isn't any better (well maybe slightly IF McCargo steps up, but that's far from a definite).

I agree that we won't miss Willis but the D is a different story.

[Earthquake Enyart]

I'm getting pumped for some football!

Monday - My tickets came in
Tuesday - Watched highlights of the night practice
Wednesday - Team yearbook


In the next 8 days we'll have Thurman going into the hall and an actual game.
The only one we'll miss is Clements, simply because we have no one to replace him.

[HAMMER]

you're making a faulty assumption: different isn't necessarily better. "Younger and hungrier" does not mean more talented, and I have a hard time believing anyone in the NFL is hungrier than Takeo Spikes (well, maybe Sam Adams but that's a different kind of hunger). Ellison and DiGiorgio were part of last year's crap-tacular D as well, and the DL isn't any better (well maybe slightly IF McCargo steps up, but that's far from a definite).

I agree that we won't miss Willis but the D is a different story.

How many times are you going to say the same damn thing? We know what you think.

[OpIv37]

How many times are you going to say the same damn thing?

Until people listen-obviously he didn't. But I don't want to get into this debate again- I'm trying to keep this football related.

[mchurchfie]

I know most people are getting excited about the season. And contrary to what a few others think, it's totally acceptable to be excited and have high expectations at the start of a new season.

But others think we have no shot because of the losses of Spikes, Fletcher, Clements and McGahee!.

Then it hit me last night. Although these guys that we got rid of had a ton of talent, we won NOTHING with them. And they let us down every time we had a big game.

Is it really a loss when we get rid of 4 guys that couldn't win and we replace them with younger/hungrier players?

Where was Clements against J-ville in the 04 opener?
Spikes has played maybe 8 games in the past 2 years and had 1 Sack and 1 forced fumble all of last year.

Maybe Fletcher and Spikes could have tackled Willie Parker in week 17 vs. Pittsburgh or tackle Young at the end of the first half on Christmas Eve last year.

Why did Willis not get the 4th and 1 in New England in week 1 last year and then not seem to care about it.

In fact, Willis didn't care about anything.

Spikes has never been on a good team.

And it's perfectly normal and acceptable to have loved these guys and to have stuck up for these guys while they were here, but then to see their faults after they leave.

Let's not act like we lost Joe Montana, Deion Sanders, Emmitt Smith and Charles Haley. (Guys that won just about everywhere they were).

We gave these guys chance after chance after chance to come thru for us and they failed each time.

Esp. in 2004, when we actually had a good team and these guys couldn't get it done.

Out with the old and in with the new! I'm ready to move on.

And that's a 180 from the start of the off-season when I wanted to resign our own guys.

and again, it's OK to change your mind.
:bf1::bf1:

[Patrick76777]

you're making a faulty assumption: different isn't necessarily better. "Younger and hungrier" does not mean more talented,



And Different isn't necessarily worse and "Younger and hungrier" does not mean less talented.

the point is, and I love Spikes, but he has never won ANYTHING! He may come off as being hungry, but maybe he's not and maybe he's been one of the guys causing the problems, and maybe, just maybe, a 31 year old LB 22 months removed from an Achilles injury, doesn't have the same skills as a 23 year old in his third year out of Oregon State who makes plays every single day in training camp.

I think we sometimes rate players too much on past performace. 3 years ago, Spikes was one of the top 5 LB's in the NFL, At this point, I'll take my chances with Keith Ellison.

[OpIv37]

And Different isn't necessarily worse and "Younger and hungrier" does not mean less talented.

the point is, and I love Spikes, but he has never won ANYTHING! He may come off as being hungry, but maybe he's not and maybe he's been one of the guys causing the problems, and maybe, just maybe, a 31 year old LB 22 months removed from an Achilles injury, doesn't have the same skills as a 23 year old in his third year out of Oregon State who makes plays every single day in training camp.

I think we sometimes rate players too much on past performace. 3 years ago, Spikes was one of the top 5 LB's in the NFL, At this point, I'll take my chances with Keith Ellison.

If guys are washed up and overpriced, there is some wisdom in replacing them. However, I'm not convinced that we've done that yet. The D wasn't any better last year when DiGiorgio and Ellison were on the field.

I can see the argument on Fletch cuz he was a FA and got way more than he's worth at this point- I still think losing him will hurt for a while til Poz gets acclimated but it's probably better than the alternative. When it comes to Spikes, he was so great before his injury that I think he deserved one last crack at recovery. To me, it seems hypocritical that guys like Wire, Reed, Price, Shaud, Everett, etc- who have been consistently mediocre for years- get chance after chance after chance, yet a formerly great player like Spikes doesn't get another chance.

As far as Clements- I agree he's overrated and I'm glad we didn't pay him. The guy was selfish and streaky at best, but again, no one on our roster has proven to be equal or better and McGee has struggled at CB (he got benched last year so this is fact, NOT my opinion).

And the DL wasn't fixed at all, which certainly won't help the young LB's improve.

Also, I have a big problem with this:


And it's perfectly normal and acceptable to have loved these guys and to have stuck up for these guys while they were here, but then to see their faults after they leave.


It's pretty much the definition of homerism. Players have flaws when they're here, and a player leaving doesn't automatically make him suck. I guess it's acceptable to think that way if your goal is blind loyalty, but don't expect to have any credibility with analysis or predictions.

[Patrick76777]

I agree with much of what you have to say, save for 2 points.

a. Spikes. He was making a ton of money. 5 years ago (or however long it was) we paid a huge back loaded contract for one of the best LB's in the league. This year we would have been at the end of that back loaded contract for a ton of money for a guy who probably isn't one of the best 30 LB's in the league. Plus, rumors abound of him being one of the locker room problems and the possibibility that he no longer wanted to be here. The same thing he pulled in Cincy before he left and they became one of the best and exciting teams in the league. Coincidence? Maybe.

b. The Homer thing! I still don't understand why this bothers you so much. I'm a huge homer and I love it. Makes it fun. Sure it ends up leaving me let down more often then not, but it's friggen football. I think being a homer is the best!
An example, I loved Brady Quinn, but during the draft when it looked like Miami was about to take him I was thinking that he's not going to be any good. Then, Cleveland takes him and I love the Browns and now I'm thinking about Quinn taking them to the top.

It's totally Homer! and I love it.

Here's to being a Homer!

[Tatonka]

nice post, pat.

i cant believe i just typed that.

[more cowbell]

TAKEO SPIKES

DID NOT

WANT TO PLAY

FOR THE BILLS

THIS SEASON

[Patrick76777]

I guess it's acceptable to think that way if your goal is blind loyalty, but don't expect to have any credibility with analysis or predictions.


This I don't agree with at all.

When a player is on the team, I focus on their strengths. When the player is on the opponents, I focus on their weaknesses to figure out how to beat them and how we can win.

Using our strengths to exploit their weaknesses. Probably how many coaches think?

[OpIv37]

I agree with much of what you have to say, save for 2 points.

a. Spikes. He was making a ton of money. 5 years ago (or however long it was) we paid a huge back loaded contract for one of the best LB's in the league. This year we would have been at the end of that back loaded contract for a ton of money for a guy who probably isn't one of the best 30 LB's in the league. Plus, rumors abound of him being one of the locker room problems and the possibibility that he no longer wanted to be here. The same thing he pulled in Cincy before he left and they became one of the best and exciting teams in the league. Coincidence? Maybe.

b. The Homer thing! I still don't understand why this bothers you so much. I'm a huge homer and I love it. Makes it fun. Sure it ends up leaving me let down more often then not, but it's friggen football. I think being a homer is the best!
An example, I loved Brady Quinn, but during the draft when it looked like Miami was about to take him I was thinking that he's not going to be any good. Then, Cleveland takes him and I love the Browns and now I'm thinking about Quinn taking them to the top.

It's totally Homer! and I love it.

Here's to being a Homer!

well, I guess we'll have to wait and see on Spikes.

As far as being a homer- I'm as big a homer as there is DURING the games. I root for every guy on the field and I overreact to pretty much every play (me overreacting- imagine that).

But when there is no game, I prefer to look at things objectively and come up with good (or at least reasonable) analysis and predictions. That can't be done by a homer.

[Patrick76777]

nice post, pat.

i cant believe i just typed that.


I thought we were tight at one point. I have no idea why you have issues with me.

I'm one of the most thought out rational guys on here.

[OpIv37]

This I don't agree with at all.

When a player is on the team, I focus on their strengths. When the player is on the opponents, I focus on their weaknesses to figure out how to beat them and how we can win.

Using our strengths to exploit their weaknesses. Probably how many coaches think?

to some degree- but you also have to know your own weaknesses to anticipate how other teams will try to exploit them.

[Patrick76777]

But when there is no game, I prefer to look at things objectively and come up with good (or at least reasonable) analysis and predictions. That can't be done by a homer.

We'll I'm not a robot. I can view things in different ways.

I get my rocks off by finding a way to win and convincing others that we can pull it off.

But if you want an honest straight up prediction, I can do that also.

I'm versatile baby!

[Patrick76777]

to some degree- but you also have to know your own weaknesses to anticipate how other teams will try to exploit them.


Absolutely, But there’s no problem getting pumped in August thinking that maybe, just maybe, we can be pretty good.

There’s no harm in that!

[OpIv37]

Absolutely, But there’s no problem getting pumped in August thinking that maybe, just maybe, we can be pretty good.

There’s no harm in that!

well, I know people are going to get on me for "raining on the parade", but when I try to look at the team objectively, I don't think we're going to be that good.

So while I'm pumped for the season to start and I want this team to do well, I have a hard time ignoring the rational, non-homer part of my brain telling me to get real.

It goes back to the hope vs expectations- I try to have high hopes but realistic expectations.

[Tatonka]

I thought we were tight at one point. I have no idea why you have issues with me.

I'm one of the most thought out rational guys on here.

i wasnt making a reference about you actually.. we have barked at each other a few times.. but i dont dislike you.. i just didnt agree with the way you shat on jp forever..but i was actually making a reference about pat moran..

:up:

[Patrick76777]

well, I know people are going to get on me for "raining on the parade", but when I try to look at the team objectively, I don't think we're going to be that good.

So while I'm pumped for the season to start and I want this team to do well, I have a hard time ignoring the rational, non-homer part of my brain telling me to get real.

It goes back to the hope vs expectations- I try to have high hopes but realistic expectations.


Many great players in the NFL came out of nowhere! Not all great players were top draft picks.

I have high hopes and at the same time I realize that there's a very good chance that this year could be the same as the last few.

I just like to have fun with it and figure out a way that we may exceed expectations.

[Patrick76777]

i wasnt making a reference about you actually.. we have barked at each other a few times.. but i dont dislike you.. i just didnt agree with the way you shat on jp forever..but i was actually making a reference about pat moran..

:up:


Well I didn't dislike JP until about week 10 last year. But I've always said that if he could turn it around, I'll be fine with him.

Looks like he has. Let's hope so. I don't care if my worst enemy is QB, as long as he can throw TD's.

[OpIv37]

Many great players in the NFL came out of nowhere! Not all great players were top draft picks.

I have high hopes and at the same time I realize that there's a very good chance that this year could be the same as the last few.

I just like to have fun with it and figure out a way that we may exceed expectations.

I have a response to this, but I'll just let it go and not try to temper your excitement.

[Patrick76777]

I have a response to this, but I'll just let it go and not try to temper your excitement.


You wouldn't be able to.

But don't do it because I don't feel like branching off into another discussion.

You'll have an answer for everything I say and I'll have an answer for every thing you say. We'll go round and round like mental masterbation.

[madness]

well, I know people are going to get on me for "raining on the parade", but when I try to look at the team objectively, I don't think we're going to be that good.

So while I'm pumped for the season to start and I want this team to do well, I have a hard time ignoring the rational, non-homer part of my brain telling me to get real.

It goes back to the hope vs expectations- I try to have high hopes but realistic expectations.

Serious question here...

So what happens if your "rational, non-homer part of the brain" is completely wrong? Will you reevaluate how you look at the team 'objectively'?

[Earthquake Enyart]

Spikes is on one leg these days, McGahee is average at best and easilly replaced by Lynch, and I never liked Fletcher in the first place.

Getting rid of these three I have no problem.

[OpIv37]

Serious question here...

So what happens if your "rational, non-homer part of the brain" is completely wrong? Will you reevaluate how you look at the team 'objectively'?

no- I'll re-evaluate my football knowledge and learn more about the game. If I'm wrong, it's a problem of knowledge and not perspective.

[BAM]

Great post Patrick, I LOVE IT! :beers:

[The last buffalo fan]

<HR style="COLOR: #f3f3ff" SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by OpIv37
well, I know people are going to get on me for "raining on the parade", but when I try to look at the team objectively, I don't think we're going to be that good.

So while I'm pumped for the season to start and I want this team to do well, I have a hard time ignoring the rational, non-homer part of my brain telling me to get real.

It goes back to the hope vs expectations- I try to have high hopes but realistic expectations.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


To help you a little, just think about that playoff game against the Oilers ................anygiving sunday!!! :gobills:

[Goobylal]

Does anyone think that Spikes, Fletcher, Clements, and McGahee were the difference between the Bills winning the SB or not this year? Next year? Does anyone think they're the difference between the Bills making the playoffs this year? Next year?

Here's what it comes down to, simply. Spikes and Fletcher were NOT going to improve or get younger/return to their prime. At least Ellison, DiGiorgio, Crowell, Poz, etc. are young and have yet to enter into their prime. That and the fact that the Bills never won with the other guys and they were expensive made letting them go the absolute right thing to do.

[OpIv37]

Does anyone think that Spikes, Fletcher, Clements, and McGahee were the difference between the Bills winning the SB or not this year? Next year? Does anyone think they're the difference between the Bills making the playoffs this year? Next year?

Here's what it comes down to, simply. Spikes and Fletcher were NOT going to improve or get younger/return to their prime. At least Ellison, DiGiorgio, Crowell, Poz, etc. are young and have yet to enter into their prime. That and the fact that the Bills never won with the other guys and they were expensive made letting them go the absolute right thing to do.

letting them go may have been the right thing to do- how they chose to replace them (or not replace them) is what has me concerned. Every player reaches a point where they are no longer able to physically do the things they once did. But at the moment, the closest thing to a proven LB we have is Crowell. He's followed by three virtually unknowns in Poz (obviously since he's a rookie), DiGiorgio and Ellison. (and by unknown I mean we don't really know what they're capable of or not capable of- don't give me this Redskins big name crap).

I guess what I'm getting at is that I know players need to be replaced at some point- I'm just questioning the wisdom of replacing so many players with young, unproven players simultaneously.

[Goobylal]

Ellison wasn't an unknown in the eyes of the Bills. Poz I agree, but would you have given Fletcher the contract the Redskins did? But in any case, the Bills got the guy they wanted at MLB in Poz.

[OpIv37]

Ellison wasn't an unknown in the eyes of the Bills. Poz I agree, but would you have given Fletcher the contract the Redskins did? But in any case, the Bills got the guy they wanted at MLB in Poz.

that's fine but it's unreasonable not to expect some growing pains while Poz adjusts to the NFL. And given the state of the rest of the D, it's not gonna be pretty.

And Ellison wasn't an unknown... well I'm not sure I agree with that- they didn't have many other options.

[Yasgur's Farm]

... mental masterbation.
:nono::shocked::brace::rain:

[Goobylal]

Sure they had options (with Ellison's spot). They could have drafted a LB'er. They could have pursued one in FA.

And sure there will be growing pains with Poz. But again, would the Bills have been assured of making the playoffs, much less the SB, with Fletcher back there? No.

[RedEyE]

The emotional roller coaster of a Bills fan (not in any specific order):

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="14%" bgColor=#000099>
http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/images/surprise2.jpg (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/surprise.htm)
</TD><TD width="14%">http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/images/disgust2.jpg (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/disgust.htm)</TD><TD width="14%" bgColor=#000099>
http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/images/contept2.jpg (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/contempt.htm)
</TD><TD width="14%">
http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/images/fear164.jpg (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/fear.htm)
</TD><TD width="14%" bgColor=#000099>
http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/images/joy2.jpg (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/joy.htm)
</TD><TD width="15%" bgColor=#000099>
http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/images/sad.jpg (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/sadness.htm)
</TD><TD width="15%" bgColor=#000099>
http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/images/anger%20other%202.jpg (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/anger.htm)
</TD></TR><TR style="TEXT-ALIGN: center"><TD>Surprise (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/surprise.htm)</TD><TD>Disgust (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/disgust.htm)</TD><TD>Contempt (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/contempt.htm)</TD><TD>Fear (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/fear.htm)</TD><TD>Joy (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/joy.htm)</TD><TD>Sadness (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/sadness.htm)</TD><TD>Anger (http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/anger.htm)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[justasportsfan]

you're making a faulty assumption: different isn't necessarily better. "Younger and hungrier" does not mean more talented, and I have a hard time believing anyone in the NFL is hungrier than Takeo Spikes (well, maybe Sam Adams but that's a different kind of hunger). Ellison and DiGiorgio were part of last year's crap-tacular D as well, and the DL isn't any better (well maybe slightly IF McCargo steps up, but that's far from a definite).

I agree that we won't miss Willis but the D is a different story.
while different doesn`t mean better , it doesn`t mean worse either. Only a defeatist will aways intentionally forget to mention the other side of the coin that COULD be positive. Typical OP. Only mentions the negative as if the positive is not possible.

[OpIv37]

while different doesn`t mean better , it doesn`t mean worse either. Only a defeatist will aways intentionally forget to mention the other side of the coin that COULD be positive. Typical OP. Only mentions the negative as if the positive is not possible.

we didn't have enough talent last year and we didn't add any except Poz. We're counting on player improvement and ONLY player improvement to improve on a D that was 28th against the run, 24th in TO's and terrible in TOP. Our D has a long way to go and the FO did very little to make it better. Yeah, it COULD be positive if everyone improves and no one has a sophomore slump, but it's highly unlikely for bunch of guys to do something that they've never proven they can do.

[unpaid_bills]

Fletcher was a solid contributor and leadership in the locker room is where he will be missed. I agree we did not win with those 3 but just a few years ago they had one of the best D's then we lost Winfield, Williams and Washington. There are many pieces and chemistry that needs to happen.

I am not sorry to see Willis gone. TKO did not want to be here anymore and not sure if he will ever be 100%. Clements wanted to much money. I am excited with the new guys in their spots time will tell if they are any better.

[TigerJ]

There are 53 players on an NFL roster. That begs the question, was it because of Clements, Spikes, McGahee and Fletcher that Buffalo hasn't won anything recently, or the 49 other guys. That said, I think Spikes and McGahee contributed little to the Bills last year, though in Spikes' case it was through no fault of his own. Fletcher contributed a lot to the pass defense, but seems to have been a liability in the run defense. Clements had a very good season by any reckoning, but he may still not be irreplaceable.

[John Doe]

I just don't get how people can think that Spikes would have been good for the team this year.

I also think that Poz will be better than Fletcher this season.

[G. Host]

Ellison wasn't an unknown in the eyes of the Bills. Poz I agree, but would you have given Fletcher the contract the Redskins did? But in any case, the Bills got the guy they wanted at MLB in Poz.
I am not sure if Elison would do better in MLB and Poz as OLB; Elison is an upgrade over Fletcher at this point of his career physically even if he does not have his leadership and experience and I think Poz will be better than Spikes post-injury.

[OpIv37]

I just don't get how people can think that Spikes would have been good for the team this year.

I also think that Poz will be better than Fletcher this season.

physically better, maybe. But Fletcher had leadership and experience that no rookie will be able to instantly emulate. I think it will take Poz between a half season and a whole season to catch up.

As far as Spikes- it takes two years to recover from that injury- at least he's proven himself in the past. I don't understand this willingness to give no-name rookies who were mediocre last year another chance, or to continue giving chances to guys like Wire, Reed, Price, Shaud, Royal, Everett, etc when they've NEVER lived up to expectations, yet a total lack of willingness to give a beast like Spikes another chance. I know someone will say "Spikes doesn't fit the system"- well, why is it that all those other guys and all our rookies from last year just need another year in the system and Spikes is the only one who doesn't fit?

And I know someone will say for the 4000th time "he didn't want to be here." First, Spikes is a competitor and he'd be playing for his next contract, so it wouldn't matter on the field. Second, what did the FO do to make a high caliber player like Spikes NOT want to be here? It's a separate issue but an issue just the same.

[John Doe]

physically better, maybe. But Fletcher had leadership and experience that no rookie will be able to instantly emulate. I think it will take Poz between a half season and a whole season to catch up.


Poz can play at a high level - he has done it all his life.



As far as Spikes- it takes two years to recover from that injury- at least he's proven himself in the past. I don't understand this willingness to give no-name rookies who were mediocre last year another chance, or to continue giving chances to guys like Wire, Reed, Price, Shaud, Royal, Everett, etc when they've NEVER lived up to expectations, yet a total lack of willingness to give a beast like Spikes another chance. I know someone will say "Spikes doesn't fit the system"- well, why is it that all those other guys and all our rookies from last year just need another year in the system and Spikes is the only one who doesn't fit?

And I know someone will say for the 4000th time "he didn't want to be here." First, Spikes is a competitor and he'd be playing for his next contract, so it wouldn't matter on the field. Second, what did the FO do to make a high caliber player like Spikes NOT want to be here? It's a separate issue but an issue just the same.

The Bills defense is based on speed. Spikes will never have above average speed again and he is not very effective taking on the tight end on the strong side. Eillison is far superior in pass coverage on the weak side - in my opinion he is already one of the best pass defending linebackers in the league.

Spikes is ill suited for the Bills defense - it's common sense.

Having someone like that on the team who does not want to be here at this point is cancerous.

[Mitchy moo]

How about the offense scoring more & forcing our opponent's into more predictable offensive situations OP?? Will that help our defense improve in itself?? It worked for the colts, they banked the big one with the worst D against the run (first time in history that happened).

[OpIv37]

Poz can play at a high level - he has done it all his life.



The Bills defense is based on speed. Spikes will never have above average speed again and he is not very effective taking on the tight end on the strong side. Eillison is far superior in pass coverage on the weak side - in my opinion he is already one of the best pass defending linebackers in the league.

Spikes is ill suited for the Bills defense - it's common sense.

Having someone on the team who does not want to be here at this point is cancerous.

I'm not doubting that Poz can play at a high level- but the NFL game is different and there are certain things that come with experience. Fletcher was the "QB" of the D and it will take time for Poz to develop into that leadership role.

Spikes' speed will probably return this year as he is further removed from his injury. Ellison is undersized for LB at 228 and that isn't going to help in the run game (another reason why I hate the Cover 2, but I digress).

Anyway this argument is going nowhere because your opinion of Ellison is way too high for what he's actually shown on the field and I know I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

[Goobylal]

I'm not doubting that Poz can play at a high level- but the NFL game is different and there are certain things that come with experience. Fletcher was the "QB" of the D and it will take time for Poz to develop into that leadership role.

Spikes' speed will probably return this year as he is further removed from his injury. Ellison is undersized for LB at 228 and that isn't going to help in the run game (another reason why I hate the Cover 2, but I digress).

Anyway this argument is going nowhere because your opinion of Ellison is way too high for what he's actually shown on the field and I know I'm not going to convince you otherwise.
Poz won't be the leader of the defense, or the LB'ers, at least not vocally. That's Crowell's job. And Crowell knows the calls and can help-out Poz there. But I have no doubt that Poz will have the calls down sooner rather than later.

As for Spikes, given the history of players with Achilles injuries, the overwhelming probability is that he'll never regain his speed. Just look at Sam Cowart, who was younger and on his way to a Pro Bowl career until he got injured.

And again, the coaches LOVE Ellison. That's whose opinion matters most.

[OpIv37]

Poz won't be the leader of the defense, or the LB'ers, at least not vocally. That's Crowell's job. And Crowell knows the calls and can help-out Poz there. But I have no doubt that Poz will have the calls down sooner rather than later.

As for Spikes, given the history of players with Achilles injuries, the overwhelming probability is that he'll never regain his speed. Just look at Sam Cowart, who was younger and on his way to a Pro Bowl career until he got injured.

And again, the coaches LOVE Ellison. That's whose opinion matters most.

the coaches love everyone. Just cuz a coach says something about a player to the media doesn't make it true. They have to play the PR game and keep fans interested. What do you expect them to say? "Spikes didn't want to be here so we had to trade him even though Ellison sucks- we're totally hosed at LB." Of course they're going to try to make the situation sound like it was their choice.

[Mitchy moo]

the coaches love everyone. Just cuz a coach says something about a player to the media doesn't make it true. They have to play the PR game and keep fans interested. What do you expect them to say? "Spikes didn't want to be here so we had to trade him even though Ellison sucks- we're totally hosed at LB." Of course they're going to try to make the situation sound like it was their choice.

How about the coaches saying Spikes will never be same & lost his edge & if someone is stupid enough to pay him goodluck. It's the other side of a coaches spin.

[patmoran2006]

As far as THIS season goes and the four you mentioned that are gone.

McGahee- Won't miss him at all. I think Lynch will be better, even as a rookie-- and McGahee's departure actually betters the team as their is less of a "who gives a ****" attitude in the locker room in the 14 games we're not playing against the Jets.

Spikes- Will miss his vet leadership more than his play. Ellison is looking real good so far, and with Crowell already solid, if Ellison holds up our OLB will be fine.

FLetcher- Will miss him THIS YEAR but not for the future. I dont care what anybody says, Fletch is better than Poz will be as a rookie.. That's not a knock on Poz its the way it is. Fletch was one of the more underated players to put a Bills uniform on. The one knock is his lack of tackles near the line. Well my counter is, you play behind that joke of a DT position we had last year. Poz could turn out to be VERY good and in time maybe even better than Fletch, but it hurts for this year.

Clements- Irreplacable on THIS team. No CB on this team including Webster can hold his jock... Its a SERIOUS downgrade and I got a feeling we'll be seeing why plenty of times this year. Having said that, it's necessary because Wilson would've been crazy to pay Nate that kind of money on a team that had/has so many other needs.

Clements is clearly the biggest loss as the other three have adequate replacements and in time; upgrades even.

[kgun12]

Until people listen-obviously he didn't. But I don't want to get into this debate again- I'm trying to keep this football related.


So the best you can hope for is people telling you that you were wrong! The worst you can hope for is you telling people I told you so! Sometimes I think you hope for the second option to come true?

[kgun12]

Great post Pat great post!!! :bf1: :bf1: :bf1:

[John Doe]

I'm not doubting that Poz can play at a high level- but the NFL game is different and there are certain things that come with experience. Fletcher was the "QB" of the D and it will take time for Poz to develop into that leadership role.

Spikes' speed will probably return this year as he is further removed from his injury. Ellison is undersized for LB at 228 and that isn't going to help in the run game (another reason why I hate the Cover 2, but I digress).

Anyway this argument is going nowhere because your opinion of Ellison is way too high for what he's actually shown on the field and I know I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

Poz is the type who will play well and become a leader immediately.

Spikes will never regain the speed he had 3 years ago - he has had a serious injury and he is 3 years older. It is common sense. Your bias is clearly showing here.

Ellison is a superb pass defender - he showed that last year. All parts of his game will improve this year.

[Patrick76777]

There are 53 players on an NFL roster. That begs the question, was it because of Clements, Spikes, McGahee and Fletcher that Buffalo hasn't won anything recently, or the 49 other guys. That said, I think Spikes and McGahee contributed little to the Bills last year, though in Spikes' case it was through no fault of his own. Fletcher contributed a lot to the pass defense, but seems to have been a liability in the run defense. Clements had a very good season by any reckoning, but he may still not be irreplaceable.

There are 49 other players, but these were the big guns. The guys you count on. The guys you rely on when the chips our down. and these are the guys that let us down again and again and again.

[OpIv37]

How about the coaches saying Spikes will never be same & lost his edge & if someone is stupid enough to pay him goodluck. It's the other side of a coaches spin.

If you're Buffalo, that's the obvious thing to say. If you're Philly, the opposite is the obvious thing to say. You want proof that coaches spin- there it is. They can't both be right.

[OpIv37]

Poz is the type who will play well and become a leader immediately.

Spikes will never regain the speed he had 3 years ago - he has had a serious injury and he is 3 years older. It is common sense. Your bias is clearly showing here.

Ellison is a superb pass defender - he showed that last year. All parts of his game will improve this year.

you said Ellison is one of the best pass defending LB's in the league and I'M the one who's biased? You just completely shot down your credibility there.

[justasportsfan]

we didn't have enough talent last year and we didn't add any except Poz. We're counting on player improvement and ONLY player improvement to improve on a D that was 28th against the run, 24th in TO's and terrible in TOP. Our D has a long way to go and the FO did very little to make it better. Yeah, it COULD be positive if everyone improves and no one has a sophomore slump, but it's highly unlikely for bunch of guys to do something that they've never proven they can do.
Maybe we didn`t have enough talent because that talent was raw. Maybe after a year of learning the system and playing with each other , they can get better.

I forget ,nothing good can come from last years rookies when it`s the bills as far as you`re concerened.. Instead of waiting to see whether one or two of them can get better, let`s just trust your psychic capacity and give up. None of them for sure is gonna step up . Every positive report is a joke unless it`s negative. We`re doomed.Why bother ,the seasons done :rolleyes:

[OpIv37]

Maybe we didn`t have enough talent because that talent was raw. Maybe after a year of learning the system and playing with each other , they can get better.

I forget ,nothing good can come from last years rookies when it`s the bills as far as you`re concerened.. Instead of waiting to see whether one or two of them can get better, let`s just trust your psychic capacity and give up. None of them for sure is gonna step up . Every positive report is a joke unless it`s negative. We`re doomed.Why bother ,the seasons done :rolleyes:

you're the one who keeps saying "why bother?". I'm saying "don't expect results", and as usual you're twisting my words.

[Goobylal]

As far as THIS season goes and the four you mentioned that are gone.

McGahee- Won't miss him at all. I think Lynch will be better, even as a rookie-- and McGahee's departure actually betters the team as their is less of a "who gives a ****" attitude in the locker room in the 14 games we're not playing against the Jets.

Spikes- Will miss his vet leadership more than his play. Ellison is looking real good so far, and with Crowell already solid, if Ellison holds up our OLB will be fine.
I agree with the above.


FLetcher- Will miss him THIS YEAR but not for the future. I dont care what anybody says, Fletch is better than Poz will be as a rookie.. That's not a knock on Poz its the way it is. Fletch was one of the more underated players to put a Bills uniform on. The one knock is his lack of tackles near the line. Well my counter is, you play behind that joke of a DT position we had last year. Poz could turn out to be VERY good and in time maybe even better than Fletch, but it hurts for this year.
On this I'll say "let's wait and see." Being an "attacking" LB'er instead of a "pursuit" LB, Poz could very well be an upgrade to Fletcher. And if anything, I'd expect him by midseason to be an upgrade.


Clements- Irreplacable on THIS team. No CB on this team including Webster can hold his jock... Its a SERIOUS downgrade and I got a feeling we'll be seeing why plenty of times this year. Having said that, it's necessary because Wilson would've been crazy to pay Nate that kind of money on a team that had/has so many other needs.

Clements is clearly the biggest loss as the other three have adequate replacements and in time; upgrades even.
Clements should prove to be the biggest loss. But that's far from given. He's provided spotty play the last 2 years. If Webster can be average for the whole season, he'll be no worse than Clements was in total all of last year.

[Patrick76777]

Let's see


Clements 2-7 - On a team that was supposed to be very good this year.
McGahee 4-5 - On a team that was 13-3 last year.
Spikes 4-5 - On a team that is always good
Fletcher - 5-4 The only one I actually liked is the only one on a team with a winning record.

We got rid of guys that only knew losing and now we're winning.

[Oaf]

Of those four, who do you think we could use the most right now? Any one of the 4 would really help us right now, even McGahee till we cut him when Lynch gets back. :chuckle:

[Illmatic15]

Fletcher and Clements were huge losses

[Ickybaluky]

Clements 2-7 - On a team that was supposed to be very good this year.

Clements is a good player, though.

SF's problem is their offense is the worst in the NFL by a wide margin. SF averages about 218 yards of offense a game and 3.9 yards per play. The #31 offense (the Bills), averages 50 yards more and 4.8 yards per play.

[HAMMER]

Clements got roasted Monday night, the only player this team misses is Fletch.

[Ed]

Clements is still a great player, but 10 mil a year would have been a total waste. Amazingly, we're doing pretty well at CB despite injuries to Webster and Youboty.

The only guy I'd want right now is Fletch and only because Poz is out for the year. I still think we're better on D this year though, then last year.

[Throne Logic]

Our defense is patched with a bunch of guys who know that this may be their only shot to play in the NFL. Many of these guys will be out of the league again next season when everyone comes back healthy. They are litterally giving every ounce of their being and taking advantage of a life dream. It's quite inspiring to watch and I am very proud to cheer this defense on.

The offense is a completely different story.

[mybills]

The only one we'll miss is Clements, simply because we have no one to replace him.
How unexpected..:D

[mybills]

Clements got roasted Monday night, the only player this team misses is Fletch.
I may miss him intercepting the ball, but I don't miss him letting the opponent gain 5 or more yards every time before he tackled them.

[Patrick76777]

Clements is a good player, though.

SF's problem is their offense is the worst in the NFL by a wide margin. SF averages about 218 yards of offense a game and 3.9 yards per play. The #31 offense (the Bills), averages 50 yards more and 4.8 yards per play.


I never said he was the reason. I just find it interesting. Clements 4th down BS is the only reason why we didn't get to the playoffs in 04.