Bills Hope Stronger Williams Keys Defensive Turnaround

[patmoran2006]

PITTSFORD — The refrain is the same all around Buffalo Bills training camp: Boy, (pick a name) is going to be a better player now that he has a year of experience in the system under his belt.

If there’s one player on defense for whom the Bills need this sentiment to ring true, it’s defensive tackle Kyle Williams.

Williams enters his second NFL season as the Bills’ entrenched starter at the nose tackle position. The Bills ranked 28th in the NFL against the run last year. They lost London Fletcher and Takeo Spikes from their front seven. Williams plays the position — nose tackle – at which stoutness is vital.
Hence, the Bills need — make that desperately need — Williams. MORE (http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/story/136643.html)

[OpIv37]

it would be nice to see Williams step it up but counting on it is not a good blueprint fo r success.

[Dr. Lecter]

If you want to build a team using the draft, you always need your yougn guys to step up. The only other alternative is to just sign FA's and that is not the way to win.

[HHURRICANE]

I thought McCargo was our key? We are running out of keys.

Maybe we should have just signed an available vet DT? Maybe one that has experience that we could have given a one year deal to. I heard somewhere that Chicago just signed a guy like that.

[patmoran2006]

Hate to say it, but so far our 5th round DT is a lot better than our 1st round DT.

I dont know if that's good or bad (Or maybe both)

[madness]

Second-year players come to training camp with the benefit of a full offseason in a pro strength program. They also have the benefit of a full year of eating right, under the close supervision of the team.
The 6-foot-1 Williams feels good about his conditioning this summer.
“I’m about 10 pounds heavier than last year,” Williams said. “I played at 296 or 297 last year and I’m 307 or 308 this year. I’ve gained some weight and I’m feeling stronger.”
That’s good news for the Bills.

Tell me about it. Williams seems to be having an excellent camp this year. I read an article that said the Bills D-line is getting a lot more penetration this year from their DTs, forcing runs outside and that should lead to more TFLs by the DEs and LBs.

[Dr. Lecter]

Hate to say it, but so far our 5th round DT is a lot better than our 1st round DT.

I dont know if that's good or bad (Or maybe both)

Or too early to tell.

Williams was farther along as a player than McCargo was last year, even coming into camp. McCargo has more talent.

I loved the Williams pick. I tols some out of town friends a week after the draft he would be starting in year 1.

[OpIv37]

If you want to build a team using the draft, you always need your yougn guys to step up. The only other alternative is to just sign FA's and that is not the way to win.

or maybe, you could base your team on young guys and use a handful of proven FA's to fill in the holes, like the Patriots. Just a thought.

Or, we could cut everyone with any experience, sign no one, and just hope the young guys we have are good enough despite the fact they haven't proven yet.

[casdhf]

McCargo has alot more upside, which is why he went as high as he did. Williams was more NFL ready, or so it seems. I'm guessing it'll be alot of Williams and Tripplett with McCargo spelling in. It doesnt really matter who starts, a good rotation will help the D stay fresh and make plays.

[Dr. Lecter]

or maybe, you could base your team on young guys and use a handful of proven FA's to fill in the holes, like the Patriots. Just a thought.

Or, we could cut everyone with any experience, sign no one, and just hope the young guys we have are good enough despite the fact they haven't proven yet.

Sign no one?

Dockery. Whittle. Walker.

That is not no one.

[OpIv37]

Sign no one?

Dockery. Whittle. Walker.

That is not no one.

oh, they play defense now?

[OpIv37]

McCargo has alot more upside, which is why he went as high as he did. Williams was more NFL ready, or so it seems. I'm guessing it'll be alot of Williams and Tripplett with McCargo spelling in. It doesnt really matter who starts, a good rotation will help the D stay fresh and make plays.

I hope you realize the people who said McCargo has a lot of upside are the same people who had to justify their decision to trade up for McCargo.

I agree on the rotation, and the key to a good rotation is finding someone better than Tim Anderson. Right now, that doesn't look like it's going to happen.

[Dr. Lecter]

oh, they play defense now?

How many FA's do you want them to sign in one offseason?

Had they signed defensive guys, we would all be *****ing about the O-line.

[OpIv37]

How many FA's do you want them to sign in one offseason?

Had they signed defensive guys, we would all be *****ing about the O-line.

true.

But that doesn't make our D any better this year and it doesn't make the Cover 2 a good system.

[HAMMER]

Here we go again, more douchebaggery.

[OpIv37]

Here we go again, more douchebaggery.

by douchebaggery, do you mean saying stuff you personally don't want to hear, or do you mean admitting the team has problems?

[Dr. Lecter]

true.

But that doesn't make our D any better this year and it doesn't make the Cover 2 a good system.

Unfortanetly, all of the problems will take more than two years to fix. Year one was to get a core on defense. Year two was get a core on offense. Year three is fill in holes and extend guys like Losman and Evans.

Once the right pieces are inteh mix, the defense will be fine.

Patience.

[OpIv37]

Unfortanetly, all of the problems will take more than two years to fix. Year one was to get a core on defense. Year two was get a core on offense. Year three is fill in holes and extend guys like Losman and Evans.

Once the right pieces are inteh mix, the defense will be fine.

Patience.

It's been 7 years, two GM's and three coaching regimes. I'm out of patience.

[OpIv37]

actually 4 coaching regimes- I forgot Wade was still here the last time we went to the playoffs.

[casdhf]

I hope you realize the people who said McCargo has a lot of upside are the same people who had to justify their decision to trade up for McCargo.

I agree on the rotation, and the key to a good rotation is finding someone better than Tim Anderson. Right now, that doesn't look like it's going to happen. Not really. I'm not happy that we traded up to get him. That doesn't have anything to do with McCargo having alot of upside. DTs typically take 3, 4, or even 5 years to really get going (Pat Williams). You can count on one hand the number of DTs that blow things up as rookies. I can't really think of any. He's got rare explosiveness-something you can't teach. That doesn't mean I'm happy we traded up to get him; it just means that you can't argue that there's talent there.

Tim Anderson is a waste of space. You wanted a massive DT, he's your guy.

[patmoran2006]

I think had they known K. Williams would contribute this much they wouldn't have traded up to get McCargo, and if they traded up they'd certainly have taken Nick Mangold (man I get sick thinking about a OL with Peters, Dockery and Mangold in a row)

I dont discount the talent of McCargo.. Wait, yes I do, or at least question it. I think he was made at least in part because of Mario Williams and Manny Lawson in college.. But that's pure opinion.. What's fact is this guy is running into a slew of injuries already and its not like he wasn't ever hurt in college either.

You cant write off McCargo yet though. He does have upside, and this DT spot DESPERATELY needs him to become at worst better than Tripplett, who for whatever reason looks like a $18 million dollar "so what" player right now.

Come to think of it, I dont think I've seen a single post or even mention of Tripplett by ANYONE in here since camp began. That's what we get for 5 years and 18 mill?

[OpIv37]

Not really. I'm not happy that we traded up to get him. That doesn't have anything to do with McCargo having alot of upside. DTs typically take 3, 4, or even 5 years to really get going (Pat Williams). You can count on one hand the number of DTs that blow things up as rookies. I can't really think of any. He's got rare explosiveness-something you can't teach. That doesn't mean I'm happy we traded up to get him; it just means that you can't argue that there's talent there.

Tim Anderson is a waste of space. You wanted a massive DT, he's your guy.

I wanted a DT who's naturally massive- not one who was undersized and slow then ate his way to being massive.

Jesus I hope to hell that McCargo and Williams don't take 3-4 years to develop. That means another 2 years of a ****ty DL, and if they don't develop, even longer while their replacements develop.

[Goobylal]

I wanted a DT who's naturally massive- not one who was undersized and slow then ate his way to being massive.

Jesus I hope to hell that McCargo and Williams don't take 3-4 years to develop. That means another 2 years of a ****ty DL, and if they don't develop, even longer while their replacements develop.
Really? I thought you'd want them to fail, so that you can have something to ***** about.

Whenever I read your posts (and the posts of some others), I think about that song "I'm only happy when it rains."

[OpIv37]

Really? I thought you'd want them to fail, so that you can have something to ***** about.

Whenever I read your posts (and the posts of some others), I think about that song "I'm only happy when it rains."

see, that's where you're wrong- the reason I never stop *****ing is because when it comes to the Bills, it never stops raining.

[Dr. Lecter]

I wanted a DT who's naturally massive- not one who was undersized and slow then ate his way to being massive.

Jesus I hope to hell that McCargo and Williams don't take 3-4 years to develop. That means another 2 years of a ****ty DL, and if they don't develop, even longer while their replacements develop.

But size is not critical in this scheme.

And yes, DTs take time to develop. Which is why they are hard to find.

[madness]

Come to think of it, I dont think I've seen a single post or even mention of Tripplett by ANYONE in here since camp began. That's what we get for 5 years and 18 mill?

No, that just means your reading comprehension sucks.

[patmoran2006]

No, that just means your reading comprehension sucks.
If that's a fact.. Go back I'd say 12-15 pages on here and tell me how many threads on billszone are there with Tripplett's name on the thread or being the primary discussion of the thread.

[OpIv37]

But size is not critical in this scheme.

And yes, DTs take time to develop. Which is why they are hard to find.

**** the scheme- size is critical in stopping the run, especially in short yardage situations. Besides that, we had a bunch of undersized guys last year and look how well it worked out. Don't do the same thing and expect different results.

[madness]

If that's a fact.. Go back I'd say 12-15 pages on here and tell me how many threads on billszone are there with Tripplett's name on the thread or being the primary discussion of the thread.

That's easy enough. :D

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=131656

Also, Billszone isn't the only place for news you know.

P.S. we have a search function too.

[John Doe]

It's good to hear that Williams is developing both physically and mentally at the tackle position.

It was to be expected and it should result in a better run defense.

McCargo is getting plenty of work and should be in shape for the regular season. There is reason to believe that he will contribute more this year as well.

[OpIv37]

McCargo is getting plenty of work and should be in shape for the regular season. There is reason to believe that he will contribute more this year as well.

you mean like missing most of the games last year, missing conditioning time because of off-season surgery, missing OTA's and missing part of camp? Sounds like he's ready to go to me!

Maybe the guy will develop over the course of the season if he can stay healthy, but there is no reason to believe he'll be ready to go when the season starts.

[casdhf]

We'll see what happens in game situations where the DL is at full speed. It's tough to really judge the trenches in pratice.

[Goobylal]

McCargo is little different conditioning-wise than he was last year in camp, as a rookie. But he's much stronger and he knows the defense better, even though he missed a lot of playing time. If he stays healthy, the DL will be much improved over last year, taken with Williams getting stronger, in better condition, and having a full year of playing time.

[John Doe]

Saying there is reason to believe doesn't make it true. You're confusing that whole "fact" and "opinion" thing again- Op

Well, looky here - I got negged by Op.

Apparently his opinion is fact now.

[OpIv37]

Well, looky here - I got negged by Op.

Apparently his opinion is fact now.

it's not my opinion that McCargo missed games, conditioning time and practice time. It's undisputed fact.

[OpIv37]

McCargo is little different conditioning-wise than he was last year in camp, as a rookie. But he's much stronger and he knows the defense better, even though he missed a lot of playing time. If he stays healthy, the DL will be much improved over last year, taken with Williams getting stronger, in better condition, and having a full year of playing time.

that's the thing- how much stronger could he be if he was hobbled getting surgery and rehabbing all off-season?

[raphael120]

McCargo has alot more upside, which is why he went as high as he did. Williams was more NFL ready, or so it seems. I'm guessing it'll be alot of Williams and Tripplett with McCargo spelling in. It doesnt really matter who starts, a good rotation will help the D stay fresh and make plays.

Where they were drafted does not ultimately control how much upside they have. Brady was in the 6th and you can't say he has massive upside. Mike Williams was drafted in the first...there was no upside, just a lot of him bein on his backside.

[John Doe]

it's not my opinion that McCargo missed games, conditioning time and practice time. It's undisputed fact.

I don't remember ever trying to dispute your facts.

I don't recall responding to your post at all.

As for my opinion that McCargo will contribute this year, you cannot dispute it now because the events have not occured. I never stated it as fact nor did I intend to.

Your itellectual dishonesty is showing again as is your obsession with my posts.

[Goobylal]

that's the thing- how much stronger could he be if he was hobbled getting surgery and rehabbing all off-season?
You can lift weights without using your feet, you know.

[casdhf]

Where they were drafted does not ultimately control how much upside they have. Brady was in the 6th and you can't say he has massive upside. Mike Williams was drafted in the first...there was no upside, just a lot of him bein on his backside. Brady is the product of hard work, dedication and a ton of intangibles, not pure, natural talent.

BTW, I hate that ****er.

[OpIv37]

I don't remember ever trying to dispute your facts.

I don't recall responding to your post at all.

As for my opinion that McCargo will contribute this year, you cannot dispute it now because the events have not occured. I never stated it as fact nor did I intend to.

Your itellectual dishonesty is showing again as is your obsession with my posts.

Your exact quote was that there is "reason to believe that McCargo will contribute more this year". If you're so into intellectual honesty, I think that makes it your obligation to share.

It's intellectually dishonest to claim there are reasons without providing some evidence of those reasons.

[OpIv37]

You can lift weights without using your feet, you know.

yeah but for a DT they need lower body strength to get push as well. In the Cover 2, DT's are expected to shoot the gaps- upper body lifting isn't going to help in that regard.

[John Doe]

Your exact quote was that there is "reason to believe that McCargo will contribute more this year". If you're so into intellectual honesty, I think that makes it your obligation to share.

It's intellectually dishonest to claim there are reasons without providing some evidence of those reasons.

The reason is that, as I previously stated:

McCargo is getting plenty of work and should be in shape for the regular season. There is reason to believe that he will contribute more this year as well.

McCargo did not come into camp completely out of shape.

Training camp is plenty of time to get himself into good condition - six weeks.

He is a young, physically talented player who should contribute in the regular season after camp. The fact that he missed physical participation in the OTA's does not preclude this happening in my opinion. Your opinion may differ, but your opinion is not fact.

It's really not that hard to comprehend.

And by the way, feel free to neg me all you want if somehow it makes you feel validated.

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[mysticsoto]

yeah but for a DT they need lower body strength to get push as well. In the Cover 2, DT's are expected to shoot the gaps- upper body lifting isn't going to help in that regard.

???

Op, this is a very dumb thing to say. C'mon, I know you are trying to keep up with your negativity attitude, but this is just dumb. I know you hate the cover 2 (and I'll admit that I'm not the biggest fan in the world) but it would pay for you to make an effort to understand it more...There's 4 Dlinemen, there's 5 Olinemen. Generally, the DEs go one on one against the OTs, that leaves 2 DTs and 3 Olinemen. You can do the math yourself. With the 3-gap DT, you might be able to argue that (though I still wouldn't buy it) but the 1-gap position requires the DT to force a double team! And strength in the upper body can be used to push a guard aside while you attempt to penetrate and force another to try and contain you. Upper body strength is a huge asset to have alongside some quickness!!!

[OpIv37]

The reason is that, as I previously stated:
.

McCargo did not come into camp completely out of shape.

Training camp is plenty of time to get himself into good condition - six weeks.

He is a young, physically talented player who should contribute in the regular season after camp. The fact that he missed physical participation in the OTA's does not preclude this happening in my opinion. Your opinion may differ, but your opinion is not fact.

It's really not that hard to comprehend.

And by the way, feel free to neg me all you want if somehow it makes you feel validated.

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Explain this to me: if six weeks is plenty of time to get into shape, why is it that second year players seem to benefit so much to have an entire off-season to condition? If six weeks was enough time, rookies would be in the same physical condition in their first year than they are in their second.

Because of his injuries, McCargo had virtually no more conditioning time this year than he had last year. Therefore, it's unreasonable to think he will be in signficantly better physical condition. It's really not that hard to comprehend.

I've only negged you once- you seem really bothered by it since it's the second time you brought it up.

[OpIv37]

???

Op, this is a very dumb thing to say. C'mon, I know you are trying to keep up with your negativity attitude, but this is just dumb. I know you hate the cover 2 (and I'll admit that I'm not the biggest fan in the world) but it would pay for you to make an effort to understand it more...There's 4 Dlinemen, there's 5 Olinemen. Generally, the DEs go one on one against the OTs, that leaves 2 DTs and 3 Olinemen. You can do the math yourself. With the 3-gap DT, you might be able to argue that (though I still wouldn't buy it) but the 1-gap position requires the DT to force a double team! And strength in the upper body can be used to push a guard aside while you attempt to penetrate and force another to try and contain you. Upper body strength is a huge asset to have alongside some quickness!!!


Well of course upper body strength is an asset, but it's a "weakest link" situation- without the explosiveness in the legs to get to the right spot, or the strength in the legs to avoid being knocked back or knocked down, the upper body strength won't help much.

[mysticsoto]

Explain this to me: if six weeks is plenty of time to get into shape, why is it that second year players seem to benefit so much to have an entire off-season to condition? If six weeks was enough time, rookies would be in the same physical condition in their first year than they are in their second.

Because of his injuries, McCargo had virtually no more conditioning time this year than he had last year. Therefore, it's unreasonable to think he will be in signficantly better physical condition. It's really not that hard to comprehend.

I've only negged you once- you seem really bothered by it since it's the second time you brought it up.

Op...remember that they are college kids just becoming men. They get stronger the longer they get into weight conditioning programs. In college, they still have to go to classes and can't devout an extraordinary amt of time to lifting and still have time for going to classes, studying, playing football, learning plays, and socializing - like they can once they become a pro and get together with a personal trainer alongside a nutrional diet that suits them, etc.

When I wrestle with kids who are half my age (late teens early 20s) even if they are bigger than me, I can push them around - and I'm not a big guy by any means...years of strength and body conditioning have to be gone through to develop. One full year can make a huge difference for rookies...

[OpIv37]

Op...remember that they are college kids just becoming men. They get stronger the longer they get into weight conditioning programs. In college, they still have to go to classes and can't devout an extraordinary amt of time to lifting and still have time for going to classes, studying, playing football, learning plays, and socializing - like they can once they become a pro and get together with a personal trainer alongside a nutrional diet that suits them, etc.

When I wrestle with kids who are half my age (late teens early 20s) even if they are bigger than me, I can push them around - and I'm not a big guy by any means...years of strength and body conditioning have to be gone through to develop. One full year can make a huge difference for rookies...

thank you for proving my point- because of his injuries, McCargo lost a lot of that year. Therefore, we have no good reason to expect him to be in significantly better shape this year than he was last year.

[mysticsoto]

Well of course upper body strength is an asset, but it's a "weakest link" situation- without the explosiveness in the legs to get to the right spot, or the strength in the legs to avoid being knocked back or knocked down, the upper body strength won't help much.

Do you have information or a link as to any one of our DTs not having explosiveness in his legs or leg strength?

In truth, I think alot of the Oline/Dline maneuvers rely more on leverage than anything else and getting into the right position. At the pro level, both O and Dlines are going to have strength (although occasionally there will be a huge mismatch) and therefore I would guess that quickness and leverage are used more often than not...I think we have some people here who play or have played those positions so maybe they can comment some more. Gr8slayer? Anyone else? Any comments to offer here?

[Dr. Lecter]

thank you for proving my point- because of his injuries, McCargo lost a lot of that year. Therefore, we have no good reason to expect him to be in significantly better shape this year than he was last year.

I don't think you have any idea what his workouts or diet (another are that is usually improved upon in the NFL), so you could be wrong on that one. In addition, you have the natural maturing of a body in the early 20's that people usually undergo.

[mysticsoto]

thank you for proving my point- because of his injuries, McCargo lost a lot of that year. Therefore, we have no good reason to expect him to be in significantly better shape this year than he was last year.

No, you're wrong. There was an article awhile back about the upper body strength conditioning that he was donig while his leg healed. Since he focused on it immensely (being all that he could do) it likely means that his upper body is stronger than that of an average 2nd year player. It may be the reason why in camp, he has looked so stout against the run...

[OpIv37]

Do you have information or a link as to any one of our DTs not having explosiveness in his legs or leg strength?

In truth, I think alot of the Oline/Dline maneuvers rely more on leverage than anything else and getting into the right position. At the pro level, both O and Dlines are going to have strength (although occasionally there will be a huge mismatch) and therefore I would guess that quickness and leverage are used more often than not...I think we have some people here who play or have played those positions so maybe they can comment some more. Gr8slayer? Anyone else? Any comments to offer here?

well given that McCargo had two foot surgeries over the last year and wasn't ready to practice full time as recently as OTA's, there is no way that he could have been working on his legs and even keeping them in the same shape as last year would be difficult.

[OpIv37]

I don't think you have any idea what his workouts or diet (another are that is usually improved upon in the NFL), so you could be wrong on that one. In addition, you have the natural maturing of a body in the early 20's that people usually undergo.

HE HAD FOOT SURGERY. YOU CAN'T WORK OUT YOUR LEGS WHILE RECOVERING FROM FOOT SURGERY.

Jesus Christ, I never thought that point would be up for debate either. Bodies don't mature when they're resting and recovering.

[Dr. Lecter]

HE HAD FOOT SURGERY. YOU CAN'T WORK OUT YOUR LEGS WHILE RECOVERING FROM FOOT SURGERY.

Jesus Christ, I never thought that point would be up for debate either. Bodies don't mature when they're resting and recovering.

THERE ARE OTHER PARTS OF HIS BODY BESIDES HIS LEGS!

[OpIv37]

THERE ARE OTHER PARTS OF HIS BODY BESIDES HIS LEGS!

but it doesnt matter if HIS LEGS ARENT STRONG ENOUGH TO KEEP HIM FROM GETTING PUSHED OUT OF THE WAY.

[mysticsoto]

but it doesnt matter if HIS LEGS ARENT STRONG ENOUGH TO KEEP HIM FROM GETTING PUSHED OUT OF THE WAY.

Op, you keep switching between 2 different things...are you talking about conditioning or strength? Conditioning is probably the least of his worries. You can get back in condition pretty quickly even by just riding a bike, running on a track, etc. Additionally, the fact that the DTs are rotated gives him breaks anyway.

Strength might be a case, although in truth, how much do we know about his recovery? Is there any therapy he is going through? Now that he is better, how much lifting is he doing? Do don't know any of that, and his last injury that kept him out of a few practices had nothing to do with his leg, so we really don't know what he is doing to work them out and improve.

What I am hoping for, however, is that he's learned the mental aspect of the cover 2 w/r/t DTs and where they should be, etc. I think this is more where he might have an advantage b'cse he just got to watch, listen and learn last year...

[G. Host]

\ n college, they still have to go to classes and can't devout an extraordinary amt of time to lifting and still have time for going to classes, studying, playing football, learning plays, and socializing - like they can once they become a pro and get together with a personal trainer alongside a nutrional diet that suits them, etc.
.

College players studying :rofl:
Maybe some do but many have walkthrough schedules with note takers, etc.

[OpIv37]

Op, you keep switching between 2 different things...are you talking about conditioning or strength? Conditioning is probably the least of his worries. You can get back in condition pretty quickly even by just riding a bike, running on a track, etc. Additionally, the fact that the DTs are rotated gives him breaks anyway.

Strength might be a case, although in truth, how much do we know about his recovery? Is there any therapy he is going through? Now that he is better, how much lifting is he doing? Do don't know any of that, and his last injury that kept him out of a few practices had nothing to do with his leg, so we really don't know what he is doing to work them out and improve.

What I am hoping for, however, is that he's learned the mental aspect of the cover 2 w/r/t DTs and where they should be, etc. I think this is more where he might have an advantage b'cse he just got to watch, listen and learn last year...

strength and conditioning are different but related- if you're hobbled from surgery you're not really working on either. I don't know exactly what McCargo's situation is, but he did have surgery sometime in the off season and he couldn't fully participate in OTA's which are relatively non-contact. so it had to have some effect on his conditioning.

As far as upper body strength, do an experiment. Stand a 60 lb dumbell up on it's side on the floor, and kick it. You'll probably break your foot. Now, take the same dumbell and balance it on a cheap camera tripod, then kick it. The whole ****ing thing will fall over.

[mysticsoto]

strength and conditioning are different but related- if you're hobbled from surgery you're not really working on either. I don't know exactly what McCargo's situation is, but he did have surgery sometime in the off season and he couldn't fully participate in OTA's which are relatively non-contact. so it had to have some effect on his conditioning.

As far as upper body strength, do an experiment. Stand a 60 lb dumbell up on it's side on the floor, and kick it. You'll probably break your foot. Now, take the same dumbell and balance it on a cheap camera tripod, then kick it. The whole ****ing thing will fall over.

#1, conditioning is easier and quicker to regain.

#2, for your example, the tripod/dumbell combination doesn't push back. In order to push somebody back, you have to make contact. When you have a strong upper body, you use that contact and you use that strength to push and move the person in front of you at the very least toward the side. No matter which way you look at it, having a strong upper body is an advantage, period. Try and discount it all you want to keep inline with your negative nancy persona, but it still won't change anything. Having a strong upper body is an asset, period!

[OpIv37]

#1, conditioning is easier and quicker to regain.

#2, for your example, the tripod/dumbell combination doesn't push back. In order to push somebody back, you have to make contact. When you have a strong upper body, you use that contact and you use that strength to push and move the person in front of you at the very least toward the side. No matter which way you look at it, having a strong upper body is an advantage, period. Try and discount it all you want to keep inline with your negative nancy persona, but it still won't change anything. Having a strong upper body is an asset, period!

I said it was an advantage, but it's an advantage that's at least partially, if not entirely, negated by a weak lower body. In order to push effectively with the upper body, the body as a whole needs to be anchored by the lower body. It's impossible to use the upper body strength without the resistance.

Want a better example? Stand up and push a desk or table on a hard floor- it slides. Now, sit in a chair with wheels and push the same piece of furniture- this time, you go backwards. You just proved you have the upper body strength to move the piece of furniture, but if you can't anchor yourself and get resistance, it doesn't do any good.

[mysticsoto]

I said it was an advantage, but it's an advantage that's at least partially, if not entirely, negated by a weak lower body. In order to push effectively with the upper body, the body as a whole needs to be anchored by the lower body. It's impossible to use the upper body strength without the resistance.

Want a better example? Stand up and push a desk or table on a hard floor- it slides. Now, sit in a chair with wheels and push the same piece of furniture- this time, you go backwards. You just proved you have the upper body strength to move the piece of furniture, but if you can't anchor yourself and get resistance, it doesn't do any good.

Okay, Op - I got work to do and can't argue all day with you. You can believe that McCargo has wheels on his feet if you want...the rest of the real world will notice that upper body strength is an asset at a position were you are constantly using leverage and speed to attack. You know, about 2 years ago, I twisted my ankle and was off of it for some time. When I recovered finally, my foot hadn't become a noodle. McCargo will have atleast the same strength he had before this incident took place. If, in your mind, that equates to him having rollerskates on, then let that be the case with you...my original post was to show that it was idiotic to say that upper body strength didn't make a difference and you have confirmed that above by now saying it IS an advantage!!!

[OpIv37]

Okay, Op - I got work to do and can't argue all day with you. You can believe that McCargo has wheels on his feet if you want...the rest of the real world will notice that upper body strength is an asset at a position were you are constantly using leverage and speed to attack. You know, about 2 years ago, I twisted my ankle and was off of it for some time. When I recovered finally, my foot hadn't become a noodle. McCargo will have atleast the same strength he had before this incident took place. If, in your mind, that equates to him having rollerskates on, then let that be the case with you...my original post was to show that it was idiotic to say that upper body strength didn't make a difference and you have confirmed that above by now saying it IS an advantage!!!

there is no ****ing way that a professional athlete can be hobbled for months and have the exact same leg strength he had before the the injury.

I NEVER said upper body strength didn't make a difference. My point is that even with increased upper body strength, there is plenty of reason to be concerned about McCargo.

[OpIv37]

I can't even believe I have to argue the point that missing conditioning and workout time hurts players.

If this were Jason Taylor we'd all be talking about how he won't be ready once the season starts.

[John Doe]

Explain this to me: if six weeks is plenty of time to get into shape, why is it that second year players seem to benefit so much to have an entire off-season to condition? If six weeks was enough time, rookies would be in the same physical condition in their first year than they are in their second.

Because of his injuries, McCargo had virtually no more conditioning time this year than he had last year. Therefore, it's unreasonable to think he will be in signficantly better physical condition. It's really not that hard to comprehend.

I've only negged you once- you seem really bothered by it since it's the second time you brought it up.

I don't recall having said that McCargo could not benefit from an entire off-season of full conditioning. That is you being intellectually dishonest.

I never said that 6 weeks was an ideal period of time to get into top shape. That is you being intellectually dishonest.

I said that 6 weeks was enough time for McCargo to get into good shape and contribute more this year than last year, and I stand by that. If your point is that he will contribute less than last year, then that is an opinion - not fact.

In my opinion, the defensive line play will be better this season.

Nothing that you have posted indicates anything to the contrary.

[OpIv37]

I don't recall having said that McCargo could not benefit from an entire off-season of full conditioning. That is you being intellectually dishonest.

I never said that 6 weeks was an ideal period of time to get into top shape. That is you being intellectually dishonest.

I said that 6 weeks was enough time for McCargo to get into good shape and contribute more this year than last year, and I stand by that. If your point is that he will contribute less than last year, then that is an opinion - not fact.

In my opinion, the defensive line play will be better this season.

Nothing that you have posted indicates anything to the contrary.

You are forgetting that McCargo had 6 weeks (actually longer) to get into good shape last year and it didn't bear any results. You ignoring the point that he had the same amount of time to prepare last year and it didn't help is you being intellectually dishonest.

There is no reason to believe the same bunch of guys will do anything different than what they've always done. There's a chance Williams will improve, there's a small chance McCargo will improve but that's not likely given the limited prep time he's had. Tripplett, Schobel, Anderson, Hargrove, Kelsay and Denney have each been in the league for 3-5 seasons, so we've seen what we're going to see from them. They're not magically going to turn into better players.

[John Doe]

You are forgetting that McCargo had 6 weeks (actually longer) to get into good shape last year and it didn't bear any results. You ignoring the point that he had the same amount of time to prepare last year and it didn't help is you being intellectually dishonest.

There is no reason to believe the same bunch of guys will do anything different than what they've always done. There's a chance Williams will improve, there's a small chance McCargo will improve but that's not likely given the limited prep time he's had. Tripplett, Schobel, Anderson, Hargrove, Kelsay and Denney have each been in the league for 3-5 seasons, so we've seen what we're going to see from them. They're not magically going to turn into better players.

Are you stating that McCargo will not contribute more this year than last?

A simple yes/no will suffice.

[mysticsoto]

You are forgetting that McCargo had 6 weeks (actually longer) to get into good shape last year and it didn't bear any results. You ignoring the point that he had the same amount of time to prepare last year and it didn't help is you being intellectually dishonest.

There is no reason to believe the same bunch of guys will do anything different than what they've always done. There's a chance Williams will improve, there's a small chance McCargo will improve but that's not likely given the limited prep time he's had. Tripplett, Schobel, Anderson, Hargrove, Kelsay and Denney have each been in the league for 3-5 seasons, so we've seen what we're going to see from them. They're not magically going to turn into better players.

This is somewhat incorrect. By everything I read and saw on McCargo, he had begun to show signs of good play and was just starting to make an impact when his injury occured. It is therefore, at best inconclusive that he "didn't bear any results".

And you also ignore the learning process of just being with the team, listening to the coaches and defensive scheme analysis as well as the upper body conditioning that we discussed above.

[OpIv37]

Are you stating that McCargo will not contribute more this year than last?

A simple yes/no will suffice.

A simple yes/no never suffices with me.

If he stays healthy plays more than six games, even if he doesn't play well, then he obviously contributed more than he did last year.

If the number of games isn't a factor in the evaluation, then no- I don't expect him to do any better than he did before his injury last year.

[OpIv37]

This is somewhat incorrect. By everything I read and saw on McCargo, he had begun to show signs of good play and was just starting to make an impact when his injury occured. It is therefore, at best inconclusive that he "didn't bear any results".

And you also ignore the learning process of just being with the team, listening to the coaches and defensive scheme analysis as well as the upper body conditioning that we discussed above.

I think the lack of practice, lack of conditionining and lack of game experience is going to counteract McCargo's increased strength.

I think this "playing together" thing is the most overrated concept in sports. These guys range from early 20's to early 30's in age (actually on D we might not even have anyone that old) and most have been playing the game for their entire lives. One year isn't suddenly going to make them significantly better just because of scheme. If they couldn't understand what the coaches were telling them last year, what makes you think they're going to be able to do it this year? Either they understand the scheme or they don't.

[John Doe]

A simple yes/no never suffices with me.

If the number of games isn't a factor in the evaluation, then no- I don't expect him to do any better than he did before his injury last year.

McCargo had 6 tackles in 5 games last season.

What you are saying is that he will not average more than 1.2 tackles per game.

We will see.

[OpIv37]

McCargo had 6 tackles in 5 games last season.

What you are saying is that he will not average more than 1.2 tackles per game.

We will see.

WTF is going on around here?

I don't recall who said this, but I do recall reading on here that several people said McCargo looked good before getting injured. How does 1.2 tackles a game for a DT look good? How can someone be encouraged by that kind of lack of production? Granted, it was very early in his career, but the ONLY "upgrade" to our DL is a guy coming off an injury who averaged 1.2 tackes a game.

And people wonder why I'm so pessimistic about this team. Damn.

[mysticsoto]

I think the lack of practice, lack of conditionining and lack of game experience is going to counteract McCargo's increased strength.

I think this "playing together" thing is the most overrated concept in sports. These guys range from early 20's to early 30's in age (actually on D we might not even have anyone that old) and most have been playing the game for their entire lives. One year isn't suddenly going to make them significantly better just because of scheme. If they couldn't understand what the coaches were telling them last year, what makes you think they're going to be able to do it this year? Either they understand the scheme or they don't.

Okay, lack of practice, conditioning and game experience does not negate strength. You don't all of a sudden lose muscle mass b'cse you haven't been playing much. If you've been lifting in one of the programs the trainers give you, then you are stronger, period. There is no negation. And how can being stronger this year, make him any worse than last year?

I'm going to borrow one of Mercyrule's tendencies over at the spin zone...

What???

The Defensive Line has a scheme that needs to be understood well for it to be effective, and somehow you discount that a 2nd year into the system and the experience they got throughout last year both on the field and off also - going over tape about where they should be, what they did wrong and how to correct, what to do when x/y/z situations arise...all that counts for nothing?

What???


WTF is going on around here?

I don't recall who said this, but I do recall reading on here that several people said McCargo looked good before getting injured. How does 1.2 tackles a game for a DT look good? How can someone be encouraged by that kind of lack of production? Granted, it was very early in his career, but the ONLY "upgrade" to our DL is a guy coming off an injury who averaged 1.2 tackes a game.

And people wonder why I'm so pessimistic about this team. Damn.

Are you keeping in mind that McCargo was just starting in his rookie year those 1st few games AND that he is on a rotational system??? Are you keeping in mind that rookie DTs don't generally enter the NFL and dominate - that they develop as they get stronger and learn the game/system?

[OpIv37]

Okay, lack of practice, conditioning and game experience does not negate strength. You don't all of a sudden lose muscle mass b'cse you haven't been playing much. If you've been lifting in one of the programs the trainers give you, then you are stronger, period. There is no negation. And how can being stronger this year, make him any worse than last year?


His legs can't possibly be stronger than last year because he was RECOVERING FROM SURGERY. Lack of practice may not hurt strength but going under the knife and sitting around for a couple months sure as hell does.

You also can't practice or condition when you're recovering from surgery.



I'm going to borrow one of Mercyrule's tendencies over at the spin zone...

What???

The Defensive Line has a scheme that needs to be understood well for it to be effective, and somehow you discount that a 2nd year into the system and the experience they got throughout last year both on the field and off also - going over tape about where they should be, what they did wrong and how to correct, what to do when x/y/z situations arise...all that counts for nothing?

What???



Are you keeping in mind that McCargo was just starting in his rookie year those 1st few games AND that he is on a rotational system??? Are you keeping in mind that rookie DTs don't generally enter the NFL and dominate - that they develop as they get stronger and learn the game/system?

It may count for a little, but not much. These guys should know- their ONLY job is to study and learn football. That's it. They play games on Sunday then all they have to do is train, watch tape and learn the system for the entire rest of the week. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that these guys had ZERO experience in the system or a similar one before OTA's in May of 2006. That means they had from May until DECEMBER to learn the system and the nuances and all that. If they couldn't pick it up in seven ****ing months, what makes you think they're going to get it at all. They had SEVEN MONTHS to learn it last year and couldn't do it, and that was time spent being with the team and being around it ALL the time- not off-season where everyone goes home to wherever they live and just works out in the basement.


So, first you're saying that McCargo's upper body strength will compensate for lack of experience, then you're saying experience in the system will improve the DL.

So make up your mind- does experience count or not? Or does it count for guys who have it and not count for guys who don't have it in order to justify potential improvement where there is none?

[Goobylal]

His legs can't possibly be stronger than last year because he was RECOVERING FROM SURGERY. Lack of practice may not hurt strength but going under the knife and sitting around for a couple months sure as hell does.
McCargo still had a perfectly healthy leg/foot which he could and likely DID exercise. And he was walking around with a protective boot on his foot, meaning he was exercising his foot and leg muscles, thus they wouldn't have atrophied.


You also can't practice or condition when you're recovering from surgery.
Wrong. Ever hear of swimming?

[OpIv37]

McCargo still had a perfectly healthy leg/foot which he could and likely DID exercise. And he was walking around with a protective boot on his foot, meaning he was exercising his foot and leg muscles, thus they wouldn't have atrophied.


Wrong. Ever hear of swimming?

that depends on the nature of the surgery and how far along in recovery a person is. If he required a cast, or before the incision healed, he wouldnt have been allowed to swim.

And he was walking around in time but he probably wasnt walking around the day after, the week after, or maybe even a month after the surgery. If the recovery was that simple, he never would have missed 2+ months of football last year.

And you cant do the same degree of conditioning limping around in a boot that a fully healthy person can.

Jesus Christ, I cannot believe you people are so desperate for a reason to find improvement that you think recovering from surgery and not practicing for MONTHS isnt going to hurt a player. Actually- it's WORSE than that- you think he's going to get BETTER by not practicing or conditioning.

[mysticsoto]

His legs can't possibly be stronger than last year because he was RECOVERING FROM SURGERY. Lack of practice may not hurt strength but going under the knife and sitting around for a couple months sure as hell does.

You also can't practice or condition when you're recovering from surgery.

It may count for a little, but not much. These guys should know- their ONLY job is to study and learn football. That's it. They play games on Sunday then all they have to do is train, watch tape and learn the system for the entire rest of the week. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that these guys had ZERO experience in the system or a similar one before OTA's in May of 2006. That means they had from May until DECEMBER to learn the system and the nuances and all that. If they couldn't pick it up in seven ****ing months, what makes you think they're going to get it at all. They had SEVEN MONTHS to learn it last year and couldn't do it, and that was time spent being with the team and being around it ALL the time- not off-season where everyone goes home to wherever they live and just works out in the basement.


So, first you're saying that McCargo's upper body strength will compensate for lack of experience, then you're saying experience in the system will improve the DL.

So make up your mind- does experience count or not? Or does it count for guys who have it and not count for guys who don't have it in order to justify potential improvement where there is none?
As I've said before, upper body strength is a bigger deal than you think on the OL. As for leg strength, I'm pretty sure that he's been working it now that he is healed. What you say about 'if they haven't learnt the system by now, they never will' is just bull*****. At the speed the NFL is played, you not only need to know where you should be in the scheme, but also what to do when the offense changes something unexpectedly. You have to know where to be, how to react, how to read what they plan to do, and you have to do all of this immediately and on the fly! The more time you spend doing something, the better you get at it, period. Even that much should be common sense to you!!!

[mysticsoto]

that depends on the nature of the surgery and how far along in recovery a person is. If he required a cast, or before the incision healed, he wouldnt have been allowed to swim.

And he was walking around in time but he probably wasnt walking around the day after, the week after, or maybe even a month after the surgery. If the recovery was that simple, he never would have missed 2+ months of football last year.

And you cant do the same degree of conditioning limping around in a boot that a fully healthy person can.

Jesus Christ, I cannot believe you people are so desperate for a reason to find improvement that you think recovering from surgery and not practicing for MONTHS isnt going to hurt a player. Actually- it's WORSE than that- you think he's going to get BETTER by not practicing or conditioning.

Oh please...you think that if a player breaks a nail or gets a papercut, the season is lost!!! And all this without having even seen the player. Have you seen McCargo in camp? Have you seen how he has been able to move really well...and not shown any signs of "weak legs" as you so call describe? Have you seen him stuffing the runs up the middle like I have? If not, then once again, what are you basing your ludicrous claims on? Last year's data, once again, of McCargo breaking his foot? From what I can tell, all your comments on pretty much everything derive from last year and you have nothing current to base your opinions on at all!!!

[OpIv37]

Oh please...you think that if a player breaks a nail or gets a papercut, the season is lost!!! And all this without having even seen the player. Have you seen McCargo in camp? Have you seen how he has been able to move really well...and not shown any signs of "weak legs" as you so call describe? Have you seen him stuffing the runs up the middle like I have? If not, then once again, what are you basing your ludicrous claims on? Last year's data, once again, of McCargo breaking his foot? From what I can tell, all your comments on pretty much everything derive from last year and you have nothing current to base your opinions on at all!!!

the guy missed MONTHS and had TWO SURGERIES- it's not a ****ing papercut. The fact that it limits his conditioning, strength training and practice time should be common sense to you.

You're right- I haven't seen McCargo yet. But again, common sense: Players don't get better by rehabbing from surgeries and not practicing. And I've read a lot of camp reports, most of which were critical of McCargo and only a few that complimented him. And I know he missed MORE camp time because of injury.

But hey, what use is practice and training when you can bench press an extra 50 lbs? That's all it takes to be a good football player anyway :rolleyes:

[OpIv37]

As I've said before, upper body strength is a bigger deal than you think on the OL. As for leg strength, I'm pretty sure that he's been working it now that he is healed. What you say about 'if they haven't learnt the system by now, they never will' is just bull*****. At the speed the NFL is played, you not only need to know where you should be in the scheme, but also what to do when the offense changes something unexpectedly. You have to know where to be, how to react, how to read what they plan to do, and you have to do all of this immediately and on the fly! The more time you spend doing something, the better you get at it, period. Even that much should be common sense to you!!!

You still haven't told me why it takes 2 years to learn that. These are guys who know the game extremely well and already know how to read offenses- all they need to know is the reaction that the scheme calls for. You have yet to come up with sufficient justification as to why it takes a full season and two full off-seasons to digest that information.

[mysticsoto]

You still haven't told me why it takes 2 years to learn that. These are guys who know the game extremely well and already know how to read offenses- all they need to know is the reaction that the scheme calls for. You have yet to come up with sufficient justification as to why it takes a full season and two full off-seasons to digest that information.

Why is a veteran better than a rookie? The answer to this question (which should be simple) also answers yours...

[mysticsoto]

the guy missed MONTHS and had TWO SURGERIES- it's not a ****ing papercut. The fact that it limits his conditioning, strength training and practice time should be common sense to you.

You're right- I haven't seen McCargo yet. But again, common sense: Players don't get better by rehabbing from surgeries and not practicing. And I've read a lot of camp reports, most of which were critical of McCargo and only a few that complimented him. And I know he missed MORE camp time because of injury.

But hey, what use is practice and training when you can bench press an extra 50 lbs? That's all it takes to be a good football player anyway :rolleyes:


Oh, so camp reports are now paid attention to by you when they have something to say that is negative. But if they say a positive thing, you ignore it or downplay it...ha! ha! ha! Talk about one track mind!!!

[TedMock]

WTF is going on around here?

I don't recall who said this, but I do recall reading on here that several people said McCargo looked good before getting injured. How does 1.2 tackles a game for a DT look good? How can someone be encouraged by that kind of lack of production? Granted, it was very early in his career, but the ONLY "upgrade" to our DL is a guy coming off an injury who averaged 1.2 tackes a game.

And people wonder why I'm so pessimistic about this team. Damn.

You're correct in saying that he's going to take time to back to form. Surgeries have that effect. Although I don't think that 6 weeks is such a short period of time if he was taking care of himself. The average play lasts 6-7 seconds, then they get huddles, TV T.O.'s, placing the ball before starting the clock, etc. He has to be able to go about 6 seconds for every minute.

What I don't understand (and it's not just from you) is why people give one rat's a$$ as to how many tackles he gets? He's a DT. I don't care if he doesn't have one tackle all season. If he gets penetration, re-directs plays, and is able to clog the L.O.S. then he's done his job. Tackles are one of the least significant way to measure a DT. Of course scheme plays a role, but I never felt that tackles were any way to measure a DT's productivity.

[OpIv37]

Why is a veteran better than a rookie? The answer to this question (which should be simple) also answers yours...

oh, but earlier you said that veterans were better than rookies because they develop physically in their mid 20's. Sorry, all this conflicting information and changing answers has me confused.

Players need time in the system to learn it and that makes them better, and players develop physically as they get older and condition, but McCargo, who is neither fully developed physically nor experienced in the system (he played 6 games and missed OTA's), will be fine because his upper body is stronger.

Makes perfect sense.

[OpIv37]

Oh, so camp reports are now paid attention to by you when they have something to say that is negative. But if they say a positive thing, you ignore it or downplay it...ha! ha! ha! Talk about one track mind!!!

when exactly did I ignore or downplay any positives from camp? What I said was that if there is a big play, like an INT, it can be interpretted either way since our team threw the INT as well as made the INT.

When looking at an individual players' performance though, it's not the same. You can look at how McCargo does against different offensive linemen, and how McCargo's performance vs a certain OL matches up with the other DT's performance against the same OL. It's much easier to benchmark and evaluate.

[mysticsoto]

oh, but earlier you said that veterans were better than rookies because they develop physically in their mid 20's. Sorry, all this conflicting information and changing answers has me confused.

Players need time in the system to learn it and that makes them better, and players develop physically as they get older and condition, but McCargo, who is neither fully developed physically nor experienced in the system (he played 6 games and missed OTA's), will be fine because his upper body is stronger.

Makes perfect sense.

Developing physically is one of the things they do (which McCargo has done with his upper body). Getting experience is also a big thing that they do and learning the system is the next. Being part of the lockerroom is a big deal in learning - regardless of whether you're playing...unless you mean to tell me that backups can't learn the system b'cse they are not playing. All McCargo needs now is the game practice that provided he stays healthy he will get this season. I don't know why this is difficult for you to understand - other than you have to try and find some way to paint negativity throughout every thread you're in!!!

[mysticsoto]

when exactly did I ignore or downplay any positives from camp? What I said was that if there is a big play, like an INT, it can be interpretted either way since our team threw the INT as well as made the INT.

When looking at an individual players' performance though, it's not the same. You can look at how McCargo does against different offensive linemen, and how McCargo's performance vs a certain OL matches up with the other DT's performance against the same OL. It's much easier to benchmark and evaluate.

Oh please. If McCargo stuffs the run frequently and clogs the middle all you will do is complain about how the Oline is not as good as you thought it would be. All you can do is try to paint every situation negative no matter what - without having seen anyone even play. Atleast after tonight you will have something to base it on since I'm sure there will be good and bad plays throughout. But to only be able to view situations as negative without even having seen McCargo, without having seen Poz, without having seen JP throw a pass, and the many pessimistic posts even before TC started, etc...just shows that you have some type of pessimistic disorder...

[OpIv37]

Oh please. If McCargo stuffs the run frequently and clogs the middle all you will do is complain about how the Oline is not as good as you thought it would be. All you can do is try to paint every situation negative no matter what - without having seen anyone even play. Atleast after tonight you will have something to base it on since I'm sure there will be good and bad plays throughout. But to only be able to view situations as negative without even having seen McCargo, without having seen Poz, without having seen JP throw a pass, and the many pessimistic posts even before TC started, etc...just shows that you have some type of pessimistic disorder...

I'm not talking about evaluating the OL- I'm talking about evaluating McCargo and comparing his play to our other DT's.

Yes, I have a "pessimistic disorder" because I don't expect players to magically get better, especially ones who haven't been playing or training :rolleyes:.

[Dr. Lecter]

I'm not talking about evaluating the OL- I'm talking about evaluating McCargo and comparing his play to our other DT's.

Yes, I have a "pessimistic disorder" because I don't expect players to magically get better, especially ones who haven't been playing or training :rolleyes:.

Hell, you don't expect the ones who have been playing and training to get better.;)

[OpIv37]

Hell, you don't expect the ones who have been playing and training to get better.;)

The younger ones, maybe, but they won't get better enough to compensate for how bad our D was last year.

The older ones like Kelsay, Denney, Tripplett, etc- you've seen what you're going to see.

[Dr. Lecter]

The younger ones, maybe, but they won't get better enough to compensate for how bad our D was last year.

The older ones like Kelsay, Denney, Tripplett, etc- you've seen what you're going to see.

Except there were 5 rookies startng last year, so a little improvement from each could very well be noticable, especially if some of the veterans do better in the defense in year 2.

[OpIv37]

Except there were 5 rookies startng last year, so a little improvement from each could very well be noticable, especially if some of the veterans do better in the defense in year 2.

Assuming no one enters a sophomore slump and assuming they all improve. BTW, they also have to compensate for the loss of Spikes, Fletcher and Clements.

[Mahdi]

You still haven't told me why it takes 2 years to learn that. These are guys who know the game extremely well and already know how to read offenses- all they need to know is the reaction that the scheme calls for. You have yet to come up with sufficient justification as to why it takes a full season and two full off-seasons to digest that information.
Anytime a team learns a new scheme it takes more than one season play it correctly. All the teams who have played Cover 2 struggled in their first season with it but in their 2nd and 3rd years they succeeded. Tampa is an example of that as is Indi and Chicago. And btw if you look at the 2005 season, when Tampa was younger and Indi had their defense in tact, along with Chicago they were all in the top 11 in Total Defense. That says enough about the C2 as a system. However if you look at the team stats(I dont have them) the year the C2 was installed on those teams you'll see they probably struggled. Im willing to bet that the new cover 2 teams in the league will take over at the top of the league very soon. Buffalo, Detroit, Minnesota.

[patmoran2006]

Getting experience is what will key the defensive turnaround.

Too much inexperience starting = the unit is going to suck for this year.

[mysticsoto]

Getting experience is what will key the defensive turnaround.

Too much inexperience starting = the unit is going to suck for this year.

According to Op, experience isn't important. They should have already learned everything last year and therefore it is irrelevant...

[OpIv37]

Anytime a team learns a new scheme it takes more than one season play it correctly. All the teams who have played Cover 2 struggled in their first season with it but in their 2nd and 3rd years they succeeded. Tampa is an example of that as is Indi and Chicago. And btw if you look at the 2005 season, when Tampa was younger and Indi had their defense in tact, along with Chicago they were all in the top 11 in Total Defense. That says enough about the C2 as a system. However if you look at the team stats(I dont have them) the year the C2 was installed on those teams you'll see they probably struggled. Im willing to bet that the new cover 2 teams in the league will take over at the top of the league very soon. Buffalo, Detroit, Minnesota.

Just out of curiosity, what FA's did those teams add between the year they struggled and the year they did well. Didn't Indy get Freeney around that time?

[OpIv37]

According to Op, experience isn't important. They should have already learned everything last year and therefore it is irrelevant...

:rolleyes:

That's not what I said. What I said was getting experience in a system isn't enough to make a bad D into a good one. It might make a mediocre D into a good D, or a good D into an above average D, but we're a bad D that didn't add any talent. I'll let you come to the logical conclusion.

[mysticsoto]

:rolleyes:

That's not what I said. What I said was getting experience in a system isn't enough to make a bad D into a good one. It might make a mediocre D into a good D, or a good D into an above average D, but we're a bad D that didn't add any talent. I'll let you come to the logical conclusion.

So are you saying we may move up from a "bad D" to a "mediocre D" ???

[OpIv37]

So are you saying we may move up from a "bad D" to a "mediocre D" ???

no, I'm saying that's the most we could hope for from experience alone. But the DL still sucks, McCargo won't contribute much (if at all), we lost Spikes and Fletcher at LB and we lost Clements at CB. So even if some of the players go from bad to mediocre as individuals, the overall D got worse in the off season and all it's gonna do is get us back where we were.

[mysticsoto]

no, I'm saying that's the most we could hope for from experience alone. But the DL still sucks, McCargo won't contribute much (if at all), we lost Spikes and Fletcher at LB and we lost Clements at CB. So even if some of the players go from bad to mediocre as individuals, the overall D got worse in the off season and all it's gonna do is get us back where we were.

I don't know how you can say this, when:

a) McCargo hardly played last year, so *ANY* play he gives us this year is a bonus when comparing to last year.
b) Spikes didn't do sh** last year. He was hobbling all over the field and couldn't keep up and has been replaced by someone who frequently played for him anyway last year, who is much faster, who's a ball hawk and who's gained muscle mass since last year.
c) Fletcher was always tackling people 10 yards past the line of scrimmage and has been replaced by a relatively "big" rookie with speed.
d) Lastly cover-2 doesn't rely on excellent corners (though it doesn't hurt to have them) and atleast the veteran we picked up has been serviceable.

So...if anything, at worst, we are about the same as last year. However, we will likely be better now that the whole D has run this scheme of defense for a year and has had time to understand it better. And if the O helps out by holding on to the ball more, the D should move up if we're lucky into the late teens, but more likely into the low 20s as I've said before. I consider that a move up to mediocre.

[OpIv37]

I don't know how you can say this, when:

a) McCargo hardly played last year, so *ANY* play he gives us this year is a bonus when comparing to last year.
b) Spikes didn't do sh** last year. He was hobbling all over the field and couldn't keep up and has been replaced by someone who frequently played for him anyway last year, who is much faster, who's a ball hawk and who's gained muscle mass since last year.
c) Fletcher was always tackling people 10 yards past the line of scrimmage and has been replaced by a relatively "big" rookie with speed.
d) Lastly cover-2 doesn't rely on excellent corners (though it doesn't hurt to have them) and atleast the veteran we picked up has been serviceable.

So...if anything, at worst, we are about the same as last year. However, we will likely be better now that the whole D has run this scheme of defense for a year and has had time to understand it better. And if the O helps out by holding on to the ball more, the D should move up if we're lucky into the late teens, but more likely into the low 20s as I've said before. I consider that a move up to mediocre.

Spikes' replacement played a lot last year and the D wasn't any better when he was out there. While Poz may be faster than Fletch, he's also less experienced and can't QB the D like Fletch did. System notwithstanding, Webster/Youboty/Thomas are not as good as Clements. Only a Bills homer would find a way to say that a downgrade in talent won't have any ill effects.

As far as McCargo, it's not a given that any play he gives us is an improvement- he has to play better than Anderson (which shouldn't be too hard, even for a hobbled 2nd year guy with almost no experience).

[Mahdi]

Just out of curiosity, what FA's did those teams add between the year they struggled and the year they did well. Didn't Indy get Freeney around that time?
Freeney was drafted by the Colts in '02. Indi drafted their entire starting defense the year they made their defensive turnaround, except for Harper.

[mysticsoto]

Spikes' replacement played a lot last year and the D wasn't any better when he was out there. While Poz may be faster than Fletch, he's also less experienced and can't QB the D like Fletch did. System notwithstanding, Webster/Youboty/Thomas are not as good as Clements. Only a Bills homer would find a way to say that a downgrade in talent won't have any ill effects.

As far as McCargo, it's not a given that any play he gives us is an improvement- he has to play better than Anderson (which shouldn't be too hard, even for a hobbled 2nd year guy with almost no experience).

Ever stop to think that the D might have been worse without Ellison in there...which is why he was in there to begin with? Of course not. You can only think in the negative.

You, and virtually everyone, was *****ing last year about how Fletcher was too small to take on the blockers and tackles in this scheme last year. He gets replaced by some who is bigger and faster, and you still *****...

Clements is a loss, but paying $80 million was out of the question. Out of all the positions to lose a star, CB is the least likely to effect a cover 2 team.

Given that you were unable to counter my positive points effectively, I think I easily won the argument. Now we can return to our normal posting...

[OpIv37]

Ever stop to think that the D might have been worse without Ellison in there...which is why he was in there to begin with? Of course not. You can only think in the negative.

You, and virtually everyone, was *****ing last year about how Fletcher was too small to take on the blockers and tackles in this scheme last year. He gets replaced by some who is bigger and faster, and you still *****...

Clements is a loss, but paying $80 million was out of the question. Out of all the positions to lose a star, CB is the least likely to effect a cover 2 team.

Given that you were unable to counter my positive points effectively, I think I easily won the argument. Now we can return to our normal posting...

If the D was worse without Ellison, it certainly wasn't significant- they were bad all year. You have no proof of that- it's just speculation on your part. Ellison sat when Spikes was healthy, so if you think Ellison is so much better, well, there is no proof that the coaches agree with you. Unless you're suggesting that our all-knowing coaches DIDN'T put the best player on the field...

I've said all along that IN TIME Poz will be better than Fletch and he's the better long term option. But that doesn't change the fact that we have to play a game that counts in a month. You keep telling me how much experience means, then you COMPLETELY discount the experience we lost in Fletch (and Spikes for that matter).

Your points have been effectively countered, whether you choose to believe it or not.

As far as Clements- he's overrated and I'm glad we didn't pay him- we can agree on that. However, there is STILL a drop in play between him and the guys we have, and you're trying to spin it into saying it doesn't matter. Loss of talent ALWAYS matters.

[mysticsoto]

If the D was worse without Ellison, it certainly wasn't significant- they were bad all year. You have no proof of that- it's just speculation on your part. Ellison sat when Spikes was healthy, so if you think Ellison is so much better, well, there is no proof that the coaches agree with you. Unless you're suggesting that our all-knowing coaches DIDN'T put the best player on the field...

I've said all along that IN TIME Poz will be better than Fletch and he's the better long term option. But that doesn't change the fact that we have to play a game that counts in a month. You keep telling me how much experience means, then you COMPLETELY discount the experience we lost in Fletch (and Spikes for that matter).

Your points have been effectively countered, whether you choose to believe it or not.

As far as Clements- he's overrated and I'm glad we didn't pay him- we can agree on that. However, there is STILL a drop in play between him and the guys we have, and you're trying to spin it into saying it doesn't matter. Loss of talent ALWAYS matters.

You choose to see the glass half empty and I see it half full. Ellison played a great deal - and frequently played toward the end of the season INSTEAD of Spikes! And to say the D "might" not have been any worse without Ellison is indeed speculation on YOUR part!

I discount Fletch's experience mostly b'cse a) his experience was not in a cover-2 and he did not fit well into this model, and b) b'cse he physically appears to have started degrading in terms of speed. You can have all the experience in the world, but if you can't execute due to size limitations, speed limitations and age, what good is it?

As for Clements, I answered that effectively already. It'd be great to have him. It is a loss...but out of all the positions, it is the least of our worries.

[MiamiFins854]

now that mcCargo is gone you guys might need him to step up or your defense could be in jeopardy.

i don't see your defense being that good off losing takeo spikes and london fletcher. again i could be wrong i just don't see posluzny being great since he's a rookie, he will do good im sure but not great.

[Dr. Lecter]

McCargo is not gone. He missed a couple of practices.