Just curious, for those actually thinking/believing that we'll be good this season,

[Wys Guy]

...how do you explain the notably lower levels of participation on Bills MBs this preseason than in past preseasons?

I'm not trying to get anyone's panties in a wad or anything, but what I'm trying to do is reconcile the notions that the team now has as much support as ever based on ill-defined stated season ticket sales, really speculation at this point, and other soft indicators prior to the season starting.

In past years the activity has been much higher than it is now. One would think that if interest has remained the same, much less increased, that both the local radio shows as well as fan MBs would have much more activity, but it's clear that it has waned for both, both in terms of fan expectations as well as fan enthusiasm.

My position is that the organization is losing its fans from an interest perspective, yet I've been shot down, w/o any evidence of course, by some here.

So how do those people, and you know who you are, reconcile the lesser levels of "excitement" around the WNY region for the Bills this season in countering my suggestions based on my own observations as well as those of others in that way?

BTW, how was camp attended this year? I didn't go to one and tonight's the last one I think, so I have no idea. Which also brings up another point, they've typically made the last day of camp far more eventful with some hoopla as well. That's why I'm thinking that it wasn't that well attended this year relatively speaking. Again, don't know however as I wasn't there.

[Note & waiver of liability: This post was not presented or meant as a personal threat to anyone, nor any threat to the welfare of their families, persons, or property. It was meant in all earnst and sincerety although it may reflect differing viewpoints from those that may respond to it. No references to actual persons were made or intended and any similarities in such ways are purely coincidental. After reading it, should symptoms of anger and rage persist, please consult your medical practitioner as soon as possible for treatment and medication. Should feelings of personal inadequacy arise, please see a self-esteem counselor as soon as possible.]

[Earthquake Enyart]

The post above is a pretty good reason.

[OpIv37]

EE nailed it, Wys.

"Negative" people like you and me who actually acknowledge that the team isn't perfect are driving everyone away. It's all about us- it has NOTHING to do with the team itself.

is there a term for megalomania applied to someone else instead of oneself?

[Dr. Lecter]

Tell me Wys, what does MB participation have to do with a team's success?

And another question, while you sit back and say fan interest is down, season ticket sales have gone up. 5 games are essentially sold out, with the Bengals game closing in on a sell-out. These are all better than last season. I can also tell you, form living in the area, people are excited about the team's direction.

Fact is people have confronted you with facts and when they do you ignore them and fail/refuse to respond.

EE is right. One can't say anything about this team that is not totally negative without being told we are stupid, homers, unrealistic, blind, idiots, morons or whatever other name crops up by a select few.

It makes being on a MB kinda painful at times.

[Stewie]

...how do you explain the notably lower levels of participation on Bills MBs this preseason than in past preseasons?


Mostly because Bills boards have become overrun by posters like you.

[Michael82]

Actually Training Camp has been a big success this year. The night practices ran out of tickets very quickly and the fences/bleachers were always pretty packed with people. I have always seen a ton of Bills gear around the area lately and a bunch of people are getting pumped up for the season. I think that people don't expect playoffs, but they love what Marv is doing with this team and believe we are finally headed back up and headed towards something special.

[Buckets]

I know in past years there has been a lot fewer instances of personal attacks, fewer posters who believe everyone else is wrong and the're right and won't just drop it. If you watch the members on line and look at how many people are just looking as apposed to how many are posting you will see this board is being dominated by a few. The others are not posting because they don't want to put up with the bashing from the know-it-alls.

[OpIv37]

Tell me Wys, what does MB participation have to do with a team's success?

And another question, while you sit back and say fan interest is down, season ticket sales have gone up. 5 games are essentially sold out, with the Bengals game closing in on a sell-out. These are all better than last season. I can also tell you, form living in the area, people are excited about the team's direction.

Fact is people have confronted you with facts and when they do you ignore them and fail/refuse to respond.

EE is right. One can't say anything about this team that is not totally negative without being told we are stupid, homers, unrealistic, blind, idiots, morons or whatever other name crops up by a select few.

It makes being on a MB kinda painful at times.

it goes both ways- one can't say anything negative about the team- particularly about Marv- without being told told that we're "negative nancies" and "crybabies" and "not real fans".

For some reason, it's ok to say that Ashton Youboty has a "first round grade" 15 million times and no one complains. But criticize the Darwin Walker trade more than once, and not only does a legion of blind homers come up with a laundry list of BS defenses for the trade, but everyone complains about repetitive posts.

[Captain gameboy]

I fully agree with what has been posted after the thread opener.

I like this team more than any of the past four years, but the posts are all the same, just a different year, causing a loss of interest.

[Wys Guy]

The post above is a pretty good reason.
Seriously EE, do you merely respond to agitate, or do you have some real reasons? I know as a fact that when we started this site we lost a LOT of great posters b/c of comments such as the one that you just levied and others offering no substance at all besides insults and petty retorts. That was when things were much better. So touche!

I wasn't at camp. I'm also not known by 99.999999% of the people that attended there.

I mean if you have something intelligent to reply with, then do it. Otherwise if all you want to do is hide insults in seemingly benign statements, then just shoot me a note calling me whatever you want to if you feel impelled.

If I merely come here and "state" that MBs are slow w/o any qualifiers, I'd be lambasted and called all kinds of things such as "negative", etc.

So I'm asking a serious question. Someone told me in these forums that I was wrong, that interest was higher, or at least as high as in past seasons. Yet, MB traffic is incredibly slower on the eve of the season as it were. Why?

It's not b/c of me, I enjoy actually discussing football and not writing posts such as this one replying to posts with absolutely no substance associated with them at all.

Meanwhile, I will come back towards the end of the season to point out all the "See, I told ya so's..." and you and everyone else will be saying that you knew all that was coming all along. Whatever.

Why is it that MBs find it so difficult to have serious and intelligent conversations? Another good question. And no, the answer is not "because of posts like this one." Sorry!

[Dr. Lecter]

EE nailed it, Wys.

"Negative" people like you and me who actually acknowledge that the team isn't perfect are driving everyone away. It's all about us- it has NOTHING to do with the team itself.

is there a term for megalomania applied to someone else instead of oneself?

It is not that Op. One can debate with you without being called an idiot and actually have a respectful discussion. You will acknowledge, albeit begrudgingly, that all is not lost. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
You might focus on the negative (i.e. JP missing one day of practice), but can see “Hey, Wire did play well.”<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The inability to start any thread without it being turned into a “Levy sucks, the team sucks, Ralph sucks” diatribe is what does it. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

[THATHURMANATOR]

I personally don't post on the Bills portion of the board much anymore is because I am sick of reading the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. It has NOTHING to do with my feelings on the prospects of the team.

[LtBillsFan66]

I think the message boards in general has passed its peak. I remember chatting in chat rooms on aol before that died out too.

Has the sale of tickets followed the same decline?

[LtBillsFan66]

I personally don't post on the Bills portion of the board much anymore is because I am sick of reading the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. It has NOTHING to do with my feelings on the prospects of the team.
Same here. You can't change anyone's mind. I gave that up long ago. I mostly browse for news rather than argue ad nauseum.

[Dr. Lecter]

it goes both ways- one can't say anything negative about the team- particularly about Marv- without being told told that we're "negative nancies" and "crybabies" and "not real fans".

For some reason, it's ok to say that Ashton Youboty has a "first round grade" 15 million times and no one complains. But criticize the Darwin Walker trade more than once, and not only does a legion of blind homers come up with a laundry list of BS defenses for the trade, but everyone complains about repetitive posts.

I agree with a good part of this.

But it goes even farther when one says "Wire might be a good LB" or "This what I like about Cover 2". Being a Bills board it is expected that some will be homers. It is part of fandom. But the old repsonses like "Marv is clueless" or the one you and I always squabble over (7 years of failure) are tiresome.

No doubt most can do better. But when one *****es about the Bills signing Andre Davis last year, who was never intended to be more than a #5 WR and ST guy, while barely mentioning the apparent potential success of Ellison, the focus is skewed.

Comments about this team being one the worst Bills team ever is as high hyperbole (Certainly others remember 1984 and 1985) as saying it is one of the best.

[LtBillsFan66]

Wys long posts... What a waste of time! For those who read through it, and for wys for writing all of that tripe!

[THATHURMANATOR]

:hi5: Matthew.

[Stewie]

Seriously EE, do you merely respond to agitate, or do you have some real reasons? I know as a fact that when we started this site we lost a LOT of great posters b/c of comments such as the one that you just levied and others offering no substance at all besides insults and petty retorts. That was when things were much better. So touche!

I wasn't at camp. I'm also not known by 99.999999% of the people that attended there.

I mean if you have something intelligent to reply with, then do it. Otherwise if all you want to do is hide insults in seemingly benign statements, then just shoot me a note calling me whatever you want to if you feel impelled.

If I merely come here and "state" that MBs are slow w/o any qualifiers, I'd be lambasted and called all kinds of things such as "negative", etc.

So I'm asking a serious question. Someone told me in these forums that I was wrong, that interest was higher, or at least as high as in past seasons. Yet, MB traffic is incredibly slower on the eve of the season as it were. Why?

It's not b/c of me, I enjoy actually discussing football and not writing posts such as this one replying to posts with absolutely no substance associated with them at all.

Meanwhile, I will come back towards the end of the season to point out all the "See, I told ya so's..." and you and everyone else will be saying that you knew all that was coming all along. Whatever.

Why is it that MBs find it so difficult to have serious and intelligent conversations? Another good question. And no, the answer is not "because of posts like this one." Sorry!

A: you dont know that touche means, you should look it up

B: just because the answer isn't what you want to hear, does not make it wrong.

[gil]

My position is that the organization is losing its fans from an interest perspective, yet I've been shot down, w/o any evidence of course, by some here.

Offered with no evidence outside of your perception of participation in this message board.

[Bulldog]

Seriously EE, do you merely respond to agitate, or do you have some real reasons? I know as a fact that when we started this site we lost a LOT of great posters b/c of comments such as the one that you just levied and others offering no substance at all besides insults and petty retorts. That was when things were much better. So touche!

I wasn't at camp. I'm also not known by 99.999999% of the people that attended there.

I mean if you have something intelligent to reply with, then do it. Otherwise if all you want to do is hide insults in seemingly benign statements, then just shoot me a note calling me whatever you want to if you feel impelled.

If I merely come here and "state" that MBs are slow w/o any qualifiers, I'd be lambasted and called all kinds of things such as "negative", etc.

So I'm asking a serious question. Someone told me in these forums that I was wrong, that interest was higher, or at least as high as in past seasons. Yet, MB traffic is incredibly slower on the eve of the season as it were. Why?

It's not b/c of me, I enjoy actually discussing football and not writing posts such as this one replying to posts with absolutely no substance associated with them at all.

Meanwhile, I will come back towards the end of the season to point out all the "See, I told ya so's..." and you and everyone else will be saying that you knew all that was coming all along. Whatever.

Why is it that MBs find it so difficult to have serious and intelligent conversations? Another good question. And no, the answer is not "because of posts like this one." Sorry!

Let me ask you a question Wys. Why would any one in their right mind want to come on a MB when it is dominated by people who talk down to others and always look at the worst case scenario? In real life, I try to avoid people like you and Op as you guys tend to drain the life out of everything that surrounds you. You're pretty miserable people in general and I for one have enough "real life" worries that I don't need to come on here and deal with miserable people. This is an escape of sorts to discuss football with people who share a passion for the Bills like I do.

Disclaimer : I'm in no way, shape, or form saying that one cannot be critical of the Bills and their management. Lord knows that they are far from perfect. But when you do it on a consistant basis, it tends to fall on deaf ears.

[Wys Guy]

Tell me Wys, what does MB participation have to do with a team's success?

And another question, while you sit back and say fan interest is down, season ticket sales have gone up. 5 games are essentially sold out, with the Bengals game closing in on a sell-out. These are all better than last season. I can also tell you, form living in the area, people are excited about the team's direction.

I don't know. What do carrots have to do with turbochargers?

Ticket sales is a shell game Lechter. If you don't understand that then I might suggest some naivete.

In season's past we got all whooped up over sellouts in seasons when we sold out all 8 games. Then we were somewhat surprised to attend several games, the Pats games most notably, where literally 25%+ of the stadium was occupied by Pats fans. But naturally in your "all arrows point to good things for the Bills" world it can't have anything to do with reasons that don't necessarily translate to interest w/in the region.

As I said before, how many fans actually show up to games is also an indicator. Regardless, the Bills always play games with ticket sales holding back thousands under notions that they will be sold as seasons prior to releasing them later on as the season approaches. So let's see where ST sales actually stand and how attendance unfolds.

Yet, you have still failed to answer the question. MB traffic, not only here, but at TSW and others is noticeably worse than last year in one of the biggest dropoffs that I've seen in years.


EE is right. One can't say anything about this team that is not totally negative without being told we are stupid, homers, unrealistic, blind, idiots, morons or whatever other name crops up by a select few.

LMAO Well, when you ignore everything that I contribute that is positive, I fail to see how you retain any credibility by making statements like that.

Have you heard anyone, anyone else Lechter, state openly that they expect Evans to attain to team record levels for receiving in all three major categories? Oh, you forgot to read those many statements along with all the other positive ones. So your lumping me into the general category is intellectually dishonest. It belittles you.

Do you think that increasing amounts of "negativity" as you call it, may have any basis at all? Clearly not since you dismiss them routinely.

Again, the end of the season will reveal much. Sadly, all of those that were the most incorrect and inaccurate, and have been for years, will continue to speak as if they have any credibility left or that anyone should even consider what they say simply b/c they say so. LOL

Either way, I think your suggestion that the "tone" of posts by some here, a growing percentage of posters BTW, is not the reason. Ditto for the radio shows that barely seem to be covering the Bills outside of daily news.

And I suppose that the lack of fanfare over the training camp this year has to do with negative posters on MBs too.

ROFLMAO

You do have answers for everything however.

As to me "ignoring facts," hardly. The issue there is that to you and others like you, "what Levy or Jauron says" quickly becomes a fact while actual data, hard or not, reflective of past performances, actual hard data used throughout the league as standards of performances, etc. are routinely and categorically dismissed for reasons of "systems," "the coaches say he's improving," "he's tearing up the D (a horrid one) in training camp," "Theismann says," along with other excuses, etc.

A quick self-study on "facts" might do you some good. ;)

Otherwise, I only deal in facts in formulating my opinions.

[justasportsfan]

EE nailed it, Wys.


I don't think EE meant it as a compliment. I thought You said you could read into things?

[TigerJ]

I don't keep track of message board activity, but season ticket sales, which I believe are at an all time high are an indication to me of rising expectations. Fan expectations as a measure of future team performance are worth about as much as the ink it took to type this message. Since I haven't printed this off, it hasn't taken much ink. LOL

[THATHURMANATOR]

To me its not that I don't see most of the points made but the attitude and way it was written which is what bothers me most.

[LtBillsFan66]

Ticket sales is a shell game Lechter. If you don't understand that then I might suggest some naivete.

This is a very idiotic statement.

[GreedoII]

listen Weiler,

M/B are for some fans who like to *****/whine/moan/believe somebody in the organization is actually listening....etc...

it has nothing to do with fanbase and game sales and tv ratings. it's a stupid forum. everything known to man has one. so stop writing nonsense as usual. go update your stupid AFC Report site with another long winded write up of basically the same crap you always write about.

[LtBillsFan66]

listen Weiler,

M/B are for some fans who like to *****/whine/moan/believe somebody in the organization is actually listening....etc...

it has nothing to do with fanbase and game sales and tv ratings. it's a stupid forum. everything known to man has one. so stop writing nonsense as usual. go update your stupid AFC Report site with another long winded write up of basically the same crap you always write about.
:bf1:

[Wys Guy]

Mostly because Bills boards have become overrun by posters like you.
Outside of this week I've hardly posted.

As well, think about your statement, if there are more and more "posters like me," and fewer and fewer "pie in the sky" Levy's crap grows roses posters, then couldn't that be suggestive that there's an underlying reason for it?

So in essence then, you recognize it too, now you're simply making excuses?

Thus far I've asked a legitimate question and am now in the process of responding to, for reasons, a string of personal insults more or less w/o any substance or analysis.

Well, OK. Thanks for at least pointing out, albeit indirectly, that more and more people/fans are actually growing less interested.

[Wys Guy]

Actually Training Camp has been a big success this year. The night practices ran out of tickets very quickly and the fences/bleachers were always pretty packed with people. I have always seen a ton of Bills gear around the area lately and a bunch of people are getting pumped up for the season. I think that people don't expect playoffs, but they love what Marv is doing with this team and believe we are finally headed back up and headed towards something special.

Thanks Mikey!!!!

[JJamezz]

To me its not that I don't see most of the points made but the attitude and way it was written which is what bothers me most.


My God.. I don't think a truer thing has ever been said...

[LtBillsFan66]

Face the music wys. People think your posts are nothing more than moronic diatribes.

[Wys Guy]

I know in past years there has been a lot fewer instances of personal attacks, fewer posters who believe everyone else is wrong and the're right and won't just drop it. If you watch the members on line and look at how many people are just looking as apposed to how many are posting you will see this board is being dominated by a few. The others are not posting because they don't want to put up with the bashing from the know-it-alls.

Thanks Buckets!!

IMO it becomes an uphill battle to separate the "disagreements" from the "bashing."

Those that can articulate opinions do so leaving the rest, some even replying within this thread, to simply "get angry" and throw a tantrum resulting in personal insults w/o at all addressing the argument in anything other than "it's my two cents" and it's as valid as anyone else who brings a truckload of data to the table.

It's one thing to opine, as I often do, on a player or situation, and then call it such and then correspondingly state as much, which I personally always try to do.

What's interesting is that some of the worst offenders of civility and decency openly state that they don't even read what someone else wrote. Case in point: I was accused recently of stating that I thought McCargo should be cut, by several, when in fact I've never even uttered such, at least not for this season or pending replacements as was implied.

In direct relation to your post, IMO (opinion), I think many see that it is difficult to carry on a conversation w/o personal lambastings. I for one do not understand why it is not possible.

Either way, that applies every season, not just this one. So while I would tend to agree with your statements, that is nothing new over past seasons so my initial thoughts there are that that in and of itself is not even a big part of the reason.

[Wys Guy]

Face the music wys. People think your posts are nothing more than moronic diatribes.

I know. They thought the same when I told you all boldly that Donadope, Gilbride, and Bledsoe would all have disastrous long-term affects for this team.

Ever wonder what most people around here think of you?

;)

[Wys Guy]

Face the music wys. People think your posts are nothing more than moronic diatribes.

And thank you for providing a case-in-point on so many levels.

Most appreciated.

: )

[Bulldog]

Again, the end of the season will reveal much. Sadly, all of those that were the most incorrect and inaccurate, and have been for years, will continue to speak as if they have any credibility left or that anyone should even consider what they say simply b/c they say so. LOL

Like you, when you told Justa and Mikey at camp that last years team would be the worst in franchise history. Pot, kettle, black. Your credibility here is nada. Zilch. Zero. Be gone already.

[LtBillsFan66]

I know. They thought the same when I told you all boldly that Donadope, Gilbride, and Bledsoe would all have disastrous long-term affects for this team.

Ever wonder what most people around here think of you?

;)

How have Shawn Bryson, Mark Campbell (the best TE in the league according to you), Travis Brown and the whole bunch of other players you were enamored with turn out?

[MikeInRoch]

No wonder New England is always so good! They have a lot more message board participation!!

I wonder if we can steal one of their top posters away. How much do they cost under the cap?

[LtBillsFan66]

Like you, when you told Justa and Mikey at camp that last years team would be the worst in franchise history. Pot, kettle, black. Your credibility here is nada. Zilch. Zero. Be gone already.
:bf1:

[Dr. Lecter]

I don't know. What do carrots have to do with turbochargers? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Ticket sales is a shell game Lechter. If you don't understand that then I might suggest some naivete. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As you usually do. Hell, if we don't agree with you we are stupid/niave/clueless/idiots. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Thank you for proving my point. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

In season's past we got all whooped up over sellouts in seasons when we sold out all 8 games. Then we were somewhat surprised to attend several games, the Pats games most notably, where literally 25%+ of the stadium was occupied by Pats fans. But naturally in your "all arrows point to good things for the Bills" world it can't have anything to do with reasons that don't necessarily translate to interest w/in the region. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As I said before, how many fans actually show up to games is also an indicator. Regardless, the Bills always play games with ticket sales holding back thousands under notions that they will be sold as seasons prior to releasing them later on as the season approaches. So let's see where ST sales actually stand and how attendance unfolds. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Except this year, there were games were sold out before the seats went on sale to the general public. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
But, hey, facts are insignificant. And that still does not explain why there has been and increase in SEASON ticket sales. Which you conveniently half ignored. (Because there has been an increase)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Yet, you have still failed to answer the question. MB traffic, not only here, but at TSW and others is noticeably worse than last year in one of the biggest dropoffs that I've seen in years. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Again, people want to be able to debate without being accused of "naivete". <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Of course, that decrease is a subjective opinion too. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

LMAO Well, when you ignore everything that I contribute that is positive, I fail to see how you retain any credibility by making statements like that. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Have you heard anyone, anyone else Lechter, state openly that they expect Evans to attain to team record levels for receiving in all three major categories? Oh, you forgot to read those many statements along with all the other positive ones. So your lumping me into the general category is intellectually dishonest. It belittles you. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Do you think that increasing amounts of "negativity" as you call it, may have any basis at all? Clearly not since you dismiss them routinely. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
It is not an increase in negativity. That is not what I said (so look in the mirror for intellectual dishonesty before you throw that stone in your glass house). It is the tone people take. Being critical of the team is one thing. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Belittling people who have optimism is quite another. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Again, the end of the season will reveal much. Sadly, all of those that were the most incorrect and inaccurate, and have been for years, will continue to speak as if they have any credibility left or that anyone should even consider what they say simply b/c they say so. LOL <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Either way, I think your suggestion that the "tone" of posts by some here, a growing percentage of posters BTW, is not the reason. Ditto for the radio shows that barely seem to be covering the Bills outside of daily news. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Remember the current radio station is the Sabres station. That does have an effect, although I listen to WGR maybe once a month. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
And I suppose that the lack of fanfare over the training camp this year has to do with negative posters on MBs too. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

ROFLMAO <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
You do have answers for everything however. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As to me "ignoring facts," hardly. The issue there is that to you and others like you, "what Levy or Jauron says" quickly becomes a fact while actual data, hard or not, reflective of past performances, actual hard data used throughout the league as standards of performances, etc. are routinely and categorically dismissed for reasons of "systems," "the coaches say he's improving," "he's tearing up the D (a horrid one) in training camp," "Theismann says," along with other excuses, etc. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
A quick self-study on "facts" might do you some good. <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 13.8pt; HEIGHT: 13.8pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/images/smilies/wink.gif" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\mehst\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Otherwise, I only deal in facts in formulating my opinions.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
You are doing a good job of cherry-picking your facts to formulate your opinions. MB participation is crucial to a team's potential or fan's excitement while ticket sales are not? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Huh? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Wire’s performance does not matter because it was pre-season. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Our O-line sucked in the game this is a major problem. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Huh? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
You also ignore what people like Thurm and I see and hear every day. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
This area is excited about the Bills and the future of the team.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
As for your TC arguments, I think Mikey did a good job with those. (Which was another subjective claim with not backing you made.) <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Finally, as for my inability to point out negatives, I have done so before. Last year I told people the first half would be tough, but the rebound and finish 8-8. Hell, two years ago my friends were <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">PO</st1:place>’d because I foresaw 6-10. And even recently they were happy I thought the team would well because “You are usually negative.” I have *****ed about <st1:place w:st="on">Preston</st1:place>. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
All I know, is that I am ready for the season to start. I can’t wait to be at the Ralph and watch some football with ~78,000 good friends. I am ready for some good times this season. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

[MikeInRoch]

Face the music wys. People think your posts are nothing more than moronic diatribes.

That's because most people are fairly perceptive.

[Bulldog]

Otherwise, I only deal in facts in formulating my opinions.

What kinds of facts would those be. The ones that you manipulate to support your argument. Like the old, "well, if you take away his longest run". What a joke!

[Wys Guy]

Let me ask you a question Wys. Why would any one in their right mind want to come on a MB when it is dominated by people who talk down to others and always look at the worst case scenario? In real life, I try to avoid people like you and Op as you guys tend to drain the life out of everything that surrounds you. You're pretty miserable people in general and I for one have enough "real life" worries that I don't need to come on here and deal with miserable people. This is an escape of sorts to discuss football with people who share a passion for the Bills like I do.

Disclaimer : I'm in no way, shape, or form saying that one cannot be critical of the Bills and their management. Lord knows that they are far from perfect. But when you do it on a consistant basis, it tends to fall on deaf ears.

Please provide some examples Bulldog?

Because frankly, other than over the past few days, I've contributed perhaps a few posts per day on average. I decided to start posting, quite frankly, b/c I saw that the boards were next to dead.

But I enjoy discussing football. I've said absolutely nothing negative about Lynch or Poz, the only two players that will likely start this season from the draft, or have a shot at starting. No need to discuss the rest IMO.

I've laid out the most lofty expectations for Evans of anyone talking about the Bills. I mean what more can someone say that to expect a player to set team records in all meaningful categories.

I've stated that I like Losman, but that he needs to find his short game. Both myself as well as KC Joyner have documented that he was among the worst "short QBs" in the entire league last year using factual data. So that's based on reality, not my opinion.

What among that is so affronting to people that would come here?

I've never said anything bad about Whitner or Simpson other than to mention that they both need to improve their coverage somewhat but that the issues there may have to do with the system/coaching, not themselves. Don't know what else can be said there in addition to the notion that they should both be fixtures on this team for a while, which I've said.

I've been hard on the lines, but anyone who isn't just isn't seeing reality. Don't know what else to tell you.

So some evidence would be appreciated. You guys all throw this stuff out as fact, often while stating that you don't even read either my articles or posts. How can that be then?

Otherwise, yours is merely anothey style over substance post. I would suggest that if a particularl "poster mentality" is chasing people away, that it would be more the likes of yours than mine. Again, not insulting, rather merely responding. Don't think that I've "drawn first blood here," as you're the one that answered towards the personal, again, lacking serious facts, against me personally, and "others like me" when I don't even "dominate" this board. That's a joke even.

[Stewie]

Outside of this week I've hardly posted.

As well, think about your statement, if there are more and more "posters like me," and fewer and fewer "pie in the sky" Levy's crap grows roses posters, then couldn't that be suggestive that there's an underlying reason for it?

So in essence then, you recognize it too, now you're simply making excuses?

Thus far I've asked a legitimate question and am now in the process of responding to, for reasons, a string of personal insults more or less w/o any substance or analysis.

Well, OK. Thanks for at least pointing out, albeit indirectly, that more and more people/fans are actually growing less interested.

I said "like" you. In this sentence, "like" was the preoposition meaning "bearing a resemblance"

I never said people not "like" you are all "pie in the sky" dreamers. That's your interpretation. MY interpretation is that people like you do nothing but piss and moan, and others don't want to hear it.

As others have pointed out, no one wants to hear a constant barrage of *****ing about any one topic. Look, I ***** and moan a lot too. I'm not exactly well liked around here, in fact in other forums I am known as an instigator. But the difference is, I'll beat something to death then let it die, and move on to the next victim. I'll temper it with positive posts where appropriate. And most of all, I won't wonder why some people don't like me, or why they don't want ot respond to me. It is what it is.

[Wys Guy]

What kinds of facts would those be. The ones that you manipulate to support your argument. Like the old, "well, if you take away his longest run". What a joke!

When you have some actual substance, let me know.

In the meantime, my goals of getting this question answered are unintentionally being achieved here.

[Wys Guy]

Offered with no evidence outside of your perception of participation in this message board.

Yes. But my perception in this instance is accurate. Go look at activity for the past few years.

[LtBillsFan66]

Yes. But my perception in this instance is accurate. Go look at activity for the past few years.
You chose to ignore my point about message boards in general reaching their peak. How convenient of you. Instead you continue with your foolish posting.

[Dr. Lecter]

As others have pointed out, no one wants to hear a constant barrage of *****ing about any one topic. Look, I ***** and moan a lot too. I'm not exactly well liked around here, in fact in other forums I am known as an instigator. But the difference is, I'll beat something to death then let it die, and move on to the next victim. I'll temper it with positive posts where appropriate. And most of all, I won't wonder why some people don't like me, or why they don't want ot respond to me. It is what it is.

We all love you Paul. :str8face:

[Stewie]

We all love you Paul. :str8face:

If that was true, I wouldn't be doing my job. But I'm a good worker bee, I keep things humming.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

I am not so sure I actually thinking/believing that they will be great this season, but I do believe it will be a good season. I think I am just going to sit back, relax, and enjoy watching this team.

[Wys Guy]

A: you dont know that touche means, you should look it up

B: just because the answer isn't what you want to hear, does not make it wrong.

I knew I should have put a question mark behind that. ; )

Good catch!!

B: I'm open to reasons and answers, but I enjoy a good back and forth citing facts, not using pipe dreams.

As an example, all throughout '04 and '05 we heard, largely from your types here, how marvelous Willis was and how he was going to tear up the league.

[You] cited his own statements, those of the coaching staff, media, etc. as a basis for your reasons and hopes. I cited past play, injury history, and other things including what I insisted was a poor OL on the basis of similar amidst similar reasons for disagreements by my detractors there, as reasons why McG would flop.

Flop he did. I will respond to well stated defenses of a position. Whether or not I want to hear something is immaterial. I didn't want to hear McG's name called at that draft just as many here also did not. Didn't matter however. The fact that it was called left me dealing with the facts.

Ergo, it's your assumption that I wanted McG to flop. I don't even see much of a need to continue if you truly think that's the case. I would have loved nothing more than to see him become "the best RB in the league." So in fact, I didn't want to hear my own arguments, but they were true, were they not? I'll help ya out, yes, yes they were.

So again, B is entirely not true.

If otherwise your arguments are limited to "A," well, ... ;)

[justasportsfan]

:movie:

[don137]

No team is perfect even the New England Patriots with the All American Heroes of Tedy Bruschi and Tom Brady playing for them.
We know the weaknesses and question marks of the Bills but we also see a lot of the good. The problem is a few posters will point out the bad ten fold over the good. Why do people always need to point out the bad.
There is so much bad in the world and sports is a great outlet from the real world however reading these message boards it stops being an outlet and more of a reality of society and all the negativity in society.

[Bulldog]

Please provide some examples Bulldog?

Because frankly, other than over the past few days, I've contributed perhaps a few posts per day on average. I decided to start posting, quite frankly, b/c I saw that the boards were next to dead.

But I enjoy discussing football. I've said absolutely nothing negative about Lynch or Poz, the only two players that will likely start this season from the draft, or have a shot at starting. No need to discuss the rest IMO.

I've laid out the most lofty expectations for Evans of anyone talking about the Bills. I mean what more can someone say that to expect a player to set team records in all meaningful categories.

I've stated that I like Losman, but that he needs to find his short game. Both myself as well as KC Joyner have documented that he was among the worst "short QBs" in the entire league last year using factual data. So that's based on reality, not my opinion.

What among that is so affronting to people that would come here?

I've never said anything bad about Whitner or Simpson other than to mention that they both need to improve their coverage somewhat but that the issues there may have to do with the system/coaching, not themselves. Don't know what else can be said there in addition to the notion that they should both be fixtures on this team for a while, which I've said.

I've been hard on the lines, but anyone who isn't just isn't seeing reality. Don't know what else to tell you.

So some evidence would be appreciated. You guys all throw this stuff out as fact, often while stating that you don't even read either my articles or posts. How can that be then?

Otherwise, yours is merely anothey style over substance post. I would suggest that if a particularl "poster mentality" is chasing people away, that it would be more the likes of yours than mine. Again, not insulting, rather merely responding. Don't think that I've "drawn first blood here," as you're the one that answered towards the personal, again, lacking serious facts, against me personally, and "others like me" when I don't even "dominate" this board. That's a joke even.

Do I really need to post links to all the articles that you have written? I have read several of them, and there seems to be a couple reoccuring themes : That the end is near and that you know more than men who have been involved in football longer that you have be alive.

And for you to suggest that fan participation on a MB some how is a direct reflection on the health of a teams fan base is nothing short of irresponsible. And despite the fact that ticket sales are stronger than in years past, you are suggesting that this is all some big cover up by the Bills brass. I'm sure the Bills are lying about tickets sales. Because they stand to gain so much by doing so.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Seriously EE, do you merely respond to agitate, or do you have some real reasons? I know as a fact that when we started this site we lost a LOT of great posters b/c of comments such as the one that you just levied and others offering no substance at all besides insults and petty retorts. That was when things were much better. So touche!

I wasn't at camp. I'm also not known by 99.999999% of the people that attended there.

I mean if you have something intelligent to reply with, then do it. Otherwise if all you want to do is hide insults in seemingly benign statements, then just shoot me a note calling me whatever you want to if you feel impelled.

If I merely come here and "state" that MBs are slow w/o any qualifiers, I'd be lambasted and called all kinds of things such as "negative", etc.

So I'm asking a serious question. Someone told me in these forums that I was wrong, that interest was higher, or at least as high as in past seasons. Yet, MB traffic is incredibly slower on the eve of the season as it were. Why?

It's not b/c of me, I enjoy actually discussing football and not writing posts such as this one replying to posts with absolutely no substance associated with them at all.

Meanwhile, I will come back towards the end of the season to point out all the "See, I told ya so's..." and you and everyone else will be saying that you knew all that was coming all along. Whatever.

Why is it that MBs find it so difficult to have serious and intelligent conversations? Another good question. And no, the answer is not "because of posts like this one." Sorry!
Explain to me how you can have an intelligent conversation with someone who writes like this?

Patrick nailed it on the head the other day with his McCargo sucks / no he might be good thread.

This board inparticular has it's own unique probles that for whatever reason never get addressed.

[Dr. Lecter]

In a one month period (7/23 - 8/21) last year, we had an average of 1, 376 posts a day.

In the same period this year we averaged 1,193 posts a day.

I did a quick test: the difference is NOT significant.

So your premise (MB activity is down) is not entirely accurate.

Now, I concede that this might not be the best indicator. But it is the best I can do relatively quickly.

[Earthquake Enyart]

A 10% drop is insignificant?

[Wys Guy]

I agree with a good part of this.

But it goes even farther when one says "Wire might be a good LB" or "This what I like about Cover 2". Being a Bills board it is expected that some will be homers. It is part of fandom. But the old repsonses like "Marv is clueless" or the one you and I always squabble over (7 years of failure) are tiresome.

It's even more "tiresome" seeing the extent and degree of support for people that have proven only failure over the years simply because their place of employment is OBD or because they now don "Bills Blue," although Bills' Blue ain't what it used to be colorwise.


No doubt most can do better. But when one *****es about the Bills signing Andre Davis last year, who was never intended to be more than a #5 WR and ST guy, while barely mentioning the apparent potential success of Ellison, the focus is skewed.

Comments about this team being one the worst Bills team ever is as high hyperbole (Certainly others remember 1984 and 1985) as saying it is one of the best.

Who "*****ed about the Andre Davis signing" Lechter?

IMO most people realized that it was just a depth signing. I do notice however that you didn't talk about the "*****ing over the Tripplett signing," or Price, or Langston Walker, Kelsay, or Robert Royal, to date all the highest paid players at their positions for the Bills w/ the exception of Walker taking a back seat to Dockery who was notably overcompensated too out of necessity.

Speaking for myself, my position has always been one of that it was entirely inconsequential either from a cap perspective or player perspective. So you may want to link those that made those statements to the statements themselves.

Here are some links:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=94314&highlight=Andre+Davis

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=94362&highlight=Andre+Davis

Not to pick on Mikey, but he made a post about how it was a good sign that we had Tripplett, Royal, and Davis in on visits last year and signed all three merely on the virtue of Levy's FO "batting 1.000," my words.

Do you think he still believes that?

[Wys Guy]

In a one month period (7/23 - 8/21) last year, we had an average of 1, 376 posts a day.

In the same period this year we averaged 1,193 posts a day.

I did a quick test: the difference is NOT significant.

So your premise (MB activity is down) is not entirely accurate.

Now, I concede that this might not be the best indicator. But it is the best I can do relatively quickly.

I should have qualified my statements further more clearly Lechter. Once again, leave it for you to keep this to day/night.

Now go look at how many different posters had a substantial number of posts. I.e., one poster making a single post in August is not "a regular poster" creating MB traffic.

Second, is that merely this football forum, or the TZ and others too?

Either way, I think it's funny that you guys now at least admit a 10% dropoff, but dismiss it entirely after just lecturing me about how interest has INCREASED!!!

Good one!

I'm outta here on that note. I've expended far too much time on this. Again, wanna talk football, I'm here. I for one don't enjoy the hidden slandering and such.

[Dr. Lecter]

A 10% drop is insignificant?
Statistically speaking in average per day?

Yes.

[JJamezz]

A 10% drop is insignificant?


No, its really not... I too was curious after Wys' comment, and was looking at the site stats over the last couple of years. There's always an ebb and flow, so for one month's 10% drop, there's another month with a 10% increase.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Well, there is a lot less Jills stuff.

[Dr. Lecter]

I should have qualified my statements further more clearly Lechter. Once again, leave it for you to keep this to day/night.

Now go look at how many different posters had a substantial number of posts. I.e., one poster making a single post in August is not "a regular poster" creating MB traffic.

Second, is that merely this football forum, or the TZ and others too?

Either way, I think it's funny that you guys now at least admit a 10% dropoff, but dismiss it entirely after just lecturing me about how interest has INCREASED!!!

Good one!

I'm outta here on that note. I've expended far too much time on this. Again, wanna talk football, I'm here. I for one don't enjoy the hidden slandering and such.

Hidden slandering??? :rofl: A hightened sense of self-importance perhaps? Don't strain that shoulder patting yourself on the back.

As for the increase, you refuse to admit that season tickets sales have increased or that local fans are talking about this team.

Not to mention, you seem to get upset when one takes your own approach and uses actual facts to prove you wrong.

And no, it was all forums. I do not have time and/or interest to to disprove your premise, which is somewhat meaningless to start with, when there are better indicators in fan interest that you seem to conveinently ignore.

[THATHURMANATOR]

In my business 10% is the difference between hitting your number or getting canned... :ill:

[don137]

I think we have lost a few regular posters due to a lot of the negativity and not because of the Bills being bad (i.e. Jan Remiers). I blame the posters not the product on the field for the drop. The Bills IMO are fielding a better product this year over last year. Like I said sports is an outlet to the real world for many and with so many negative people on this board its no longer as much as an outlet.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I used to post soley on the Bills portion of the board back in the day too... :ill:

[Earthquake Enyart]

I think we could use a good ostrich vs. chicken fight again.

Oh wait, animal fighting is illegal.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Church hook me up with my old Sig!!!!

[alohabillsfan]

I used to respond alot more but, "we" have gravitated to posting threads such as this that no longer discuss the Bills then why bother! So now I just stroll through and look for Bills related threads!

P.S. You average over 50 posts a month!

[hydro]

The problem is everyone seems to think they have to defend their internet ego. If people would just let everyone have their own opinion and not try to force their beliefs on others there would be a lot less arguing.

The bashing between the homers and negs will never stop unless everyone just agrees to disagree.

[seanbillsfan]

i love this site but some people call themselves bills fan but constantly rip the team for every move they make. I usually only read the threads that have actual info and not just a bunch of crap. Somebody actually changed my sig to some spanish garbage but i dont really give a ****

[Earthquake Enyart]

i love this site but some people call themselves bills fan but constantly rip the team for every move they make. I usually only read the threads that have actual info and not just a bunch of crap. Somebody actually changed my sig to some spanish garbage but i dont really give a ****
Wasn't me. I'm in Mexico, not Spain. :mex:

[JJamezz]

The problem is everyone seems to think they have to defend their internet ego. If people would just let everyone have their own opinion and not try to force their beliefs on others there would be a lot less arguing.

The bashing between the homers and negs will never stop unless everyone just agrees to disagree.


Well said.


And if I had a dollar for every time I thought there was a real ant crawling on my screen... bastard! :rofl:

[seanbillsfan]

I am also VERY pumped for the season, i dont care if we go 2-14 this year. Its part of being a fan.

[hydro]

Well said.


And if I had a dollar for every time I thought there was a real ant crawling on my screen... bastard! :rofl:

:bigwave: I was wondering when someone was going to say something about it :lol:

[THATHURMANATOR]

http://www.billszone.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10033/thurm~0.gif

[Mr. Pink]

http://www.billszone.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10033/thurm%7E0.gif

Thurm, I haven't seen someone in a bledsoe jersey ever move that quickly!

That's definitely false advertising right there!

We all know that Bledsoe would just stand there and look dumbfounded.

[BAM]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that not all Bills fans are affiliated with a message board forum.

In my case, I've been overrun by the responsibilities of life. New kid, new house, higher level job, etc... I can't speak for anyone else, but just because I don't visit a message board doesn't change my outlook of the team.

[THATHURMANATOR]

What if it were me wearing the jersey? Then it would be quick like lightning.

[Bulldog]

Then it would be quick like lightning.

Either that, or lava.

[LtBillsFan66]

Notice how wys blatantly ignores all logical counterpoints in his tireless endeavors, then accuses others of doing the same very thing?

[Mr. Pink]

What if it were me wearing the jersey? Then it would be quick like MOLASSES.


I fixed it for you. You're welcome.:nod:

[AndreReed83]

When you have some actual substance, let me know.

In the meantime, my goals of getting this question answered are unintentionally being achieved here.


See, it's bull**** like that. A plethora of people have come on, out of lurking even, to explain a lack of activity at this board, among other topics. Many people have intentionally answered you in a legitimate fashion.

You constantly start these threads and then ignore nearly all of the sensible retorts, acting all the while like some martyr going into uncharted waters that other Bills' fans are too afraid to acknowledge.

Maybe you truly overlook the many legitimate responses you get. Or maybe you just enjoy being this way on here, where the anonymity of the internet allows one to form any sub-personality they crave.

Also, insisting a poster's intelligence is dull if they choose to disagree with your opinion isn't winning you any support either. And why should it? It's an aggressive statement. You're saying your opinion makes you smarter than anyone else holding a different opinion. Obviously that's going to lead to some heads clashing.

[LtBillsFan66]

See, it's bull**** like that. A plethora of people have come on, out of lurking even, to explain a lack of activity at this board, among other topics. Many people have intentionally answered you in a legitimate fashion.

You constantly start these threads and then ignore nearly all of the sensible retorts, acting all the while like some martyr going into uncharted waters that other Bills' fans are too afraid to acknowledge.

Maybe you truly oversee the many legitimate responses you get. Or maybe you just enjoy being this way on here, where the anonimisity of the internet allows one to form any sub-personality they crave.

Also, insisting a poster's intelligence is dull if they choose to disagree with your opinion isn't winning you any support either. And why should it? It's an aggressive statement. You're saying your opinion makes you smarter than anyone else holding a different opinion. Obviously that's going to lead to some heads clashing.
:bf1:

[Earthquake Enyart]

Notice how wys blazingly ignores all logical counterpoints in his tireless endeavors, then accuses others of doing the same very thing?
Yes. He thinks he's right because his posts are longer.

[GreedoII]

Hey Weiler,

Maybe you are just worried this stupid website you helped develop may shut down? stop with the propaganda BS. If we are basing your numbers on the entire Western NY populace and 80,000 tickets holders then talk to me. Another pointless extremely long and boring post from Weiler. There are more forums than this one to talk Bills football you dope.

[ddaryl]

Mostly because Bills boards have become overrun by posters like you.


That is the reason. 100%. I reduced my posting and post reading considerably just because I honestly do not want to associate with many of the people who do post.

I find them to be *******s, who are to absorbed with their need to be negative and right

[TedMock]

I come here much less frequently than I used to. However, it has nothing to do with my interest in the Bills.

My interest has, is, and most likely, always will be very high. In fact, I expect the Bills to be an entertaining team this year. I don't expect a miracle season though. I don't expect dominating performances and I don't expect a superbowl run. I expect tough games, I expect a better team than last season based on philosophy, not numbers. I played for 13 years and I coached for 4 years and I never once based anything on numbers. I probably won't start now as they're only a small part of the equation, but not the majority of it. You should look at them, but not take them as a barometer. How many sacks does a DT get? Who cares? He's a DT. There's one example. Well, he only had 2 sacks, so he must suck. That's one part of the reason I don't come here as often.

On the other hand, I see people completely forgiving the staff and players for obvious mishaps. I also see people bashing players who play well simply because A. they're with another team, or B. they come from another team and our opinion can't POSSIBLY be wrong. I don't like the ultra-homer, or pathetic negative attitudes I see here. I don't mind people questioning the moves of the team, but I can't help but feel sorry for folks who blindly follow them or for those who honestly believe they somehow have more football sense than the front office. Brilliant display of ignorance. I try to avoid any homeristic or negative threads, but it's tough these days. I don't want to be placed in either category either. I've agreed and disagreed with both sides, but there is where the problem lies. Why are there two sides?

Reality is this. You, me, Marv Levy et. al. will win some and we will lose some. Is Marv "smarter" than us? Maybe, maybe not. Does Marv know the details of professional football more than us? 100% absolutely, yes. Whether or not we agree with him. Does Marv make mistakes? 100% absolutely yes. Whether or not we agree with him. It is what it is: An inexact science that statistics, philosophy, opinion, experience, or anything else, cannot measure. It's a funny-shaped ball that bounces in directions other balls don't. The Patriots run a very old-school, solid front on defense. They win. The Colts run a base cover-2. They win. They Colts offense carried them through a good chunk of the year, but it was that weak defense that got them through the playoffs. The Pats are a solid fundamental team that does nothing unusual. However, they play every down to near perfection. That's their philosophy. There are other teams that win using various philosophies - Chargers, Saints, Bears, etc.

I've always been a believer that a coach needs 3 seasons to really have his team in place. Some get lucky and do it sooner. Most don't. Jauron has a tough past. No doubt about it. However, some coaches have better second go-arounds and some worse. We'll find out. It's not just the system that's implemented and the play-calling differences that take time. There's a team attitude that takes even longer. Players don't automatically warm up and accept a new team philosophy right away. This takes time. It takes a full season to find out what veterans are buying into what you're selling as a coach. If they're not buying into it - you get rid of them - period. A divided locker room = never having a good team. A hungry team, all on the same page = a chance.

The team needs to play better this year. I'm on board - especially the second half of the year. New leaders, rookie starters, young team, etc. I fully expect all parts in place for a playoff run by next season. Jauron and Levy get three years from me (not that it matters). There are still holes to fill and I know that. I'm also sick (very sick) of losing. However, I realize that if we're going to go in a new direction, that new regime deserves a clean slate. It's unfair to them and to the players not to give them that. There are unrealistic expectations that don't adhere to this. That's just my opinion and my philosophy. Nobody has to agree with it and I don't expect everybody to. What I do fully expect is for people to respect it.

The lack of respect in either direction is the main reason I don't come as often.

[LtBillsFan66]

Hey Weiler,

Maybe you are just worried this stupid website you helped develop may shut down? stop with the propaganda BS. If we are basing your numbers on the entire Western NY populace and 80,000 tickets holders then talk to me. Another pointless extremely long and boring post from Weiler. There are more forums than this one to talk Bills football you dope.
:bf1:

[JJamezz]

Hey Weiler,

Maybe you are just worried this stupid website you helped develop may shut down? stop with the propaganda BS. If we are basing your numbers on the entire Western NY populace and 80,000 tickets holders then talk to me. Another pointless extremely long and boring post from Weiler. There are more forums than this one to talk Bills football you dope.


One thing I can assure you of, he has no vested interest or involvement in this site in any way - hasn't for many years now...

Maybe when his own site #'s drop, he figures everyone else's do too, I don't know.. :idunno:

[Wally The Barber]

I am outraged, where is my doctor?

[justasportsfan]

the wys man is gone to make sauces. let the thread die.

[EricStratton]

You chose to ignore my point about message boards in general reaching their peak. How convenient of you. Instead you continue with your foolish posting.




Good point Matt. I know that when I walk around McFaddens with it's 500+ NYC fans or the tailgate with 300-500 Bills fans there are about 5 who actually post on this or othe rboards.


Most fans are just fans.

[LtBillsFan66]

Good point Matt. I know that when I walk around McFaddens with it's 500+ NYC fans or the tailgate with 300-500 Bills fans there are about 5 who actually post on this or othe rboards.


Most fans are just fans.
Good point.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Matthew my buddies and I are thinking about coming down for a Bills away game to watch it at Mcfaddens.

[LtBillsFan66]

Matthew my buddies and I are thinking about coming down for a Bills away game to watch it at Mcfaddens.
:bf1:

[Dr. Lecter]

Matthew my buddies and I are thinking about coming down for a Bills away game to watch it at Mcfaddens.


But nobody likes the Bills anymore.

It will only be you, your friends, bf1 and Stratton (until he passes out in the men's room).

[John Doe]

Thanks Buckets!!

What's interesting is that some of the worst offenders of civility and decency openly state that they don't even read what someone else wrote. Case in point: I was accused recently of stating that I thought McCargo should be cut, by several, when in fact I've never even uttered such, at least not for this season or pending replacements as was implied.


Here is what you posted:



Some of these guys will always ask for patience, three more years, the benefit of the doubt, etc. regardless of how ludicrous it all gets.

These are the same types that keep dating psycho women and the like long after the writing's on the wall after they find out.


Here is how I replied:


Are you seriously advocating cutting McCargo?

Unbelievable.


I never said that you stated that he should be cut. I asked you if that is what you advocated. It was the only thing that I could infer from your diatribes against McCargo.

It seems that you are the one misrepresenting me.

[clumping platelets]

Offered with no evidence outside of your perception of participation in this message board.


Thanks gilbert.........can you now sing us a song? :cheers:

[EricStratton]

Good point.



Speaking of that Matt the tailgate is a toss-up.

I went to the Jets preseason game last week and parking is a trainwreck.

[LtBillsFan66]

Speaking of that Matt the tailgate is a toss-up.

I went to the Jets preseason game last week and parking is a trainwreck.
Yeah, we might have to think of something else.

[Tatonka]

...how do you explain the notably lower levels of participation on Bills MBs this preseason than in past preseasons?

I'm not trying to get anyone's panties in a wad or anything, but what I'm trying to do is reconcile the notions that the team now has as much support as ever based on ill-defined stated season ticket sales, really speculation at this point, and other soft indicators prior to the season starting.

In past years the activity has been much higher than it is now. One would think that if interest has remained the same, much less increased, that both the local radio shows as well as fan MBs would have much more activity, but it's clear that it has waned for both, both in terms of fan expectations as well as fan enthusiasm.

My position is that the organization is losing its fans from an interest perspective, yet I've been shot down, w/o any evidence of course, by some here.

So how do those people, and you know who you are, reconcile the lesser levels of "excitement" around the WNY region for the Bills this season in countering my suggestions based on my own observations as well as those of others in that way?

BTW, how was camp attended this year? I didn't go to one and tonight's the last one I think, so I have no idea. Which also brings up another point, they've typically made the last day of camp far more eventful with some hoopla as well. That's why I'm thinking that it wasn't that well attended this year relatively speaking. Again, don't know however as I wasn't there.

[Note & waiver of liability: This post was not presented or meant as a personal threat to anyone, nor any threat to the welfare of their families, persons, or property. It was meant in all earnst and sincerety although it may reflect differing viewpoints from those that may respond to it. No references to actual persons were made or intended and any similarities in such ways are purely coincidental. After reading it, should symptoms of anger and rage persist, please consult your medical practitioner as soon as possible for treatment and medication. Should feelings of personal inadequacy arise, please see a self-esteem counselor as soon as possible.]

good post..



for me to poop on.

[mayotm]

Weiler, you have posted some annoying crap over the years, but this thread ranks right up there. Equating message board traffic to interest in the team... give me a break. Also, since your mister statistic, do you have any stats to substantiate your claim? Didn't think so. Your sole intent in life seems to be to annoy Bills fans. Congratulations! You've more than acccomplished that. Now go back into hiding.

[SABURZFAN]

it goes both ways- one can't say anything negative about the team- particularly about Marv- without being told told that we're "negative nancies" and "crybabies" and "not real fans".

For some reason, it's ok to say that Ashton Youboty has a "first round grade" 15 million times and no one complains. But criticize the Darwin Walker trade more than once, and not only does a legion of blind homers come up with a laundry list of BS defenses for the trade, but everyone complains about repetitive posts.


the repetitive postings are usually the homers who whine about the "nancies,crybabies,and the not real fans."

[Tatonka]

No wonder New England is always so good! They have a lot more message board participation!!

I wonder if we can steal one of their top posters away. How much do they cost under the cap?

what a great post.. good stuff.:cheers:

[Tatonka]

<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As you usually do. Hell, if we don't agree with you we are stupid/niave/clueless/idiots. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Thank you for proving my point. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Except this year, there were games were sold out before the seats went on sale to the general public. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
But, hey, facts are insignificant. And that still does not explain why there has been and increase in SEASON ticket sales. Which you conveniently half ignored. (Because there has been an increase)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Again, people want to be able to debate without being accused of "naivete". <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Of course, that decrease is a subjective opinion too. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
It is not an increase in negativity. That is not what I said (so look in the mirror for intellectual dishonesty before you throw that stone in your glass house). It is the tone people take. Being critical of the team is one thing. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Belittling people who have optimism is quite another. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Remember the current radio station is the Sabres station. That does have an effect, although I listen to WGR maybe once a month. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
And I suppose that the lack of fanfare over the training camp this year has to do with negative posters on MBs too. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
You are doing a good job of cherry-picking your facts to formulate your opinions. MB participation is crucial to a team's potential or fan's excitement while ticket sales are not? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Huh? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Wire’s performance does not matter because it was pre-season. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Our O-line sucked in the game this is a major problem. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Huh? <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
You also ignore what people like Thurm and I see and hear every day. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
This area is excited about the Bills and the future of the team.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
As for your TC arguments, I think Mikey did a good job with those. (Which was another subjective claim with not backing you made.) <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Finally, as for my inability to point out negatives, I have done so before. Last year I told people the first half would be tough, but the rebound and finish 8-8. Hell, two years ago my friends were <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">PO</st1:place>’d because I foresaw 6-10. And even recently they were happy I thought the team would well because “You are usually negative.” I have *****ed about <st1:place w:st="on">Preston</st1:place>. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
All I know, is that I am ready for the season to start. I can’t wait to be at the Ralph and watch some football with ~78,000 good friends. I am ready for some good times this season. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>


served. :snicker:

[LtBillsFan66]

Weiler, you have posted some annoying crap over the years, but this thread ranks right up there. Equating message board traffic to interest in the team... give me a break. Also, since your mister statistic, do you have any stats to substantiate your claim? Didn't think so. Your sole intent in life seems to be to annoy Bills fans. Congratulations! You've more than acccomplished that. Now go back into hiding.
:bf1:

[SABURZFAN]

If that was true, I wouldn't be doing my job. But I'm a good worker bee, I keep things humming.


so if you ever need a hummer,paulB's the man to go see. :up:

[LtBillsFan66]

wys got his ass handed to him in this thread.

[SABURZFAN]

http://www.billszone.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10033/thurm~0.gif



:rofl:



that was an awesome time.

[SABURZFAN]

wys got his ass handed to him in this thread.


his main worry was reducing that 10% decline on the MB. :up:

[LtBillsFan66]

If there is anything Bills fans can agree on, it's that wys posts are idiotic.

[sba]

<o:p></o:p>Except this year, there were games were sold out before the seats went on sale to the general public. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
But, hey, facts are insignificant. And that still does not explain why there has been and increase in SEASON ticket sales. Which you conveniently half ignored. (Because there has been an increase)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Remember the current radio station is the Sabres station. That does have an effect, although I listen to WGR maybe once a month. <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Interesting that you mention this and bring up the Sabres. The two are directly related.

People are buying Bills tickets now, because if by some miracle there's a Sabre-like turnaround in on-field product, like the run of 05-06, people will have the tickets in hand and not be left in the cold. And there will be this rebirth at some point.

The other crowd of people that are buying tickets are college kids, because it's an excuse to spend a whole day drinking and partying. The crowds in the glory days were mostly middle-aged men who were there to watch football. These are the people who cared and made RWS one of the most feared road buldings in the NFL. Now it's more like a frat house, or a partisan crowd consisting of at least 25% fans of the other team, or in the case of New England 50%.

WGR doesn't talk about the Bills because they can't get enough people to care at this point. Your casual fan notices no more "Spikes, Clements, McGahee", your hardcore fan will go to games if you and I are out there playing.

[hydro]

Interesting that you mention this and bring up the Sabres. The two are directly related.

People are buying Bills tickets now, because if by some miracle there's a Sabre-like turnaround in on-field product, like the run of 05-06, people will have the tickets in hand and not be left in the cold. And there will be this rebirth at some point.

The other crowd of people that are buying tickets are college kids, because it's an excuse to spend a whole day drinking and partying. The crowds in the glory days were mostly middle-aged men who were there to watch football. These are the people who cared and made RWS one of the most feared road buldings in the NFL. Now it's more like a frat house, or a partisan crowd consisting of at least 25% fans of the other team, or in the case of New England 50%.

WGR doesn't talk about the Bills because they can't get enough people to care at this point. Your casual fan notices no more "Spikes, Clements, McGahee", your hardcore fan will go to games if you and I are out there playing.

Do you ever listen to WGR? When they aren't babling about something that isn't related to sports they are talking about the bills. What the hell else would they have to talk about? They have nothing to talk about when it comes to the Sabres, they have already beaten that dead horse.

[GreedoII]

Myabe we should end this thread. we are feeding into his lack of posts solution by posting more on this stupid thread!!! close it now!!

[FlyingDutchman]

to me its all how you define good. I think thats the definition of an average team to me. Not great, but not bad. I'm hoping for a 9-7 season. Even an 8-8 or 7-9 would be not that bad considering our schedule and the average age of our team.

We still have a couple of years to go until we are serious contenders. I think it will take one more year of a solid draft, plus a year for them to mature and then we should be Super Bowl contenders in my mind barring we dont let any of our young studs go.