lets talk about loyalty

[Tatonka]

how come if a player wants a big contract, they are considered money hunger, selfish players?

how come if a team cuts a loyal leader that has served his team well and always been a team player it is just called business?

should be some interesting answers.

[Tatonka]

you will be graded on this... :D

[PA Season Ticket Holder]

Get over Sam Adams dude,lol

With all them zonebucks you're making off of Sam Adams, you should be buying some squares :D

[jdbillsfan]

I would like to hear what the explanation is for cutting Centers. He has been a quality player who gives it his all every time he is in the game and it seemed like the coaches liked him....

Don't really agree, so I don't have an answer for you T.

[Tatonka]

this is not specifically directed at sam.. this is for any player.. and about how management trashes other good ones (and that is NOT specifically directed at centers either)..

i am just looking for a debate..

PA.. you fail.

[Billz_fan]

I completely agree Tatonka in fact I stated much the same thing in this thread last night

http://www.billsfanzone.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13137






Well.............

I see both angles really. Sam is sounding much like a bussiness man.

You have to remember that these guys are asked (by us mostly) to show loyalty to there team and the game.

When there career is winding down though or they enter into the later part of a contract that pays them large amounts of money they then become expendable and loyalty by the team (certainly) and the fan base (high percentage) goes out the window.

They have an undetermined amount of time to make all they can cus when it's over, it's definatly over and loyalty is severed by all.

[Tatonka]

bf.. i am not saying that i have an opinion on this.. either way.. well i do.. but i am not stating it.. i am stating facts above.

i would like to hear peoples reason..

but yours is well writen.. and i think that post among others is what made me think of this.

[4thAndLong]

They're called selfish players because they are trying to screw the team over by trying to take more than what they're worth. They're considered selfish because they put they're needs in front of the team's needs.

When a loyal player leaves, he is usually confronted about it..takes huge pay-cuts and such. Look at LeRoy Butler.

[Billz_fan]

Originally posted by 4thAndLong
They're called selfish players because they are trying to screw the team over by trying to take more than what they're worth. They're considered selfish because they put they're needs in front of the team's needs.

When a loyal player leaves, he is usually confronted about it..takes huge pay-cuts and such. Look at LeRoy Butler.


man 4th I don't know, I think we went way past what the atheletes themselves are worth (should be making) long ago.

It's a "cat outta the bag" and has been for several years. Not as bad as baseball but......it's gonna get there.

Kickers are millionaires :eek: shoot I don't know if I can spell millionaire let alone imagine being one :D

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by 4thAndLong
They're called selfish players because they are trying to screw the team over by trying to take more than what they're worth. They're considered selfish because they put they're needs in front of the team's needs.

When a loyal player leaves, he is usually confronted about it..takes huge pay-cuts and such. Look at LeRoy Butler.

but what loyalties do teams show to players that players should recipricate? would you agree that when a player is no longer good, he gets fired? are teams loyal to players who dont win and make the team money?

and how is a player selfish if a team will pay what he wants? what responsibility does a player have to another player on the team? to the player behind him that wants his job?

[4thAndLong]

Originally posted by Billz_fan





Kickers are millionaires :eek: shoot I don't know if I can spell millionaire let alone imagine being one :D

How many games do kickers decide?

[Tatonka]

what loyalty does a team show to a player like priest holmes.. clearly the best player in the nfl for two years, working on a 4 year 8 mill contract..

he says i would like to make what the chumps above me are making that dont produce half of what i do.. and the team says play out your contract, knowing that by the time it is over, he wont be worth the big bucks at that time cuz he will be 3 years older.. which means he may never get paid the great cash that a player of his caliber should in comparison to his peers.

[Tatonka]

do you think when players see situations like priest holmes they still believe in the whole "lets be a team player" dream?

[4thAndLong]

Originally posted by Tatonka


but what loyalties do teams show to players that players should recipricate? would you agree that when a player is no longer good, he gets fired? are teams loyal to players who dont win and make the team money?

and how is a player selfish if a team will pay what he wants? what responsibility does a player have to another player on the team? to the player behind him that wants his job?

If a player is no longer good, it depends on the situation.

A player is selfish because he is putting himself over the team. Isn't selfish putting yourself ahead of others?

If a team pays what he wants it depends on the situation. Adams was wanted more money than what he was worth. He's done that in the past. This guy is a me-me player.

[4thAndLong]

Originally posted by Tatonka
do you think when players see situations like priest holmes they still believe in the whole "lets be a team player" dream?

Priest has not spoke publically about his contract that I know off.

Priest's and Sam's situations are totally different.

Yes, they do still believe in that motto. Football is about winning.

[Tatonka]

is how much money a player makes really determined by him? or are the teams that offer players like spikes 32 million.. or the pack for giving farve 100million responsible for the players wanting more?

give an inch...

[Tatonka]

stop making this about adams.. i am talking about the nfl.. i could give a **** about adams atm.

[Billz_fan]

Even many times when a player is playing out his contract the team chooses to release him rather than honor the contract. They usually take the cap hit for that year and its over.

These contracts are not all player screw the team. It works in reverse also.

Jason Seahorn comes to mind. His time may have been winding down as a player but he had a contract and had been a big name Giant for years. No loyalty there.

[4thAndLong]

Originally posted by Billz_fan

Jason Seahorn comes to mind. His time may have been winding down as a player but he had a contract and had been a big name Giant for years. No loyalty there.

There's a difference. Sehorn wouldn't take a pay-cut. The Giants ate up 8 mill on him (dead space)

Also, a player's pay is determined by his pay and how much he demands...Most of the time.

I'm out for the night, have to get up early for work. Night all.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by 4thAndLong


If a player is no longer good, it depends on the situation.

A player is selfish because he is putting himself over the team. Isn't selfish putting yourself ahead of others?

If a team pays what he wants it depends on the situation. Adams was wanted more money than what he was worth. He's done that in the past. This guy is a me-me player.

how does it depend? if a player is no longer good.. they cut him.. no matter who he is or how much money he makes or doesnt... it doesnt depend.. a team uses a player until the player cant help win and make the team money..

a player, knowing he could lose his job to the guy behind him and be cut the next day, should look out for that guy who is trying to take his job?

if the bills brought in priest holmes.. would travis henry be happy because it helps the team? would any player? or would he think, when is the team gonna dump me..

[Tatonka]

run right when it gets fun.. ingtar, your thoughts?

[Billz_fan]

Originally posted by 4thAndLong


There's a difference. Sehorn wouldn't take a pay-cut. The Giants ate up 8 mill on him (dead space)

Also, a player's pay is determined by his pay and how much he demands...Most of the time.

I'm out for the night, have to get up early for work. Night all.

LOL goodnight :D

Seahorn had a contract though, If he decides he wants more money and is already playing under a lesser contract he is a selfish player who is greedy.

If he has a contract though and the team decides he is not worth it anymore then it's renegotiate or take a hike Jason. The team is now the one not honoring the contract and that is considered bussiness. :down:

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by 4thAndLong


There's a difference. Sehorn wouldn't take a pay-cut. The Giants ate up 8 mill on him (dead space)

Also, a player's pay is determined by his pay and how much he demands...Most of the time.

I'm out for the night, have to get up early for work. Night all.

oh.. so a player signs a contract for small money, and plays like the best player in the nfl, and he should honor the contract.. but a player doesnt produce big like the contract he signed, and he should give money back and take a pay cut or get fired.

[Tatonka]

billzfan.. we are on the same page i think

[Billz_fan]

Originally posted by Tatonka
billzfan.. we are on the same page i think

yeah, we need some new blood infused here :D

[Tatonka]

i really am open to debate..

i just feel like we think, as fans, that players should show loyalty to a team, because we are fans of that team..

meanwhile a team uses a player to get one thing.. wins.. which in the business world translates to ... wins = more money for the team. teams have no true loyalty to a player.

so why should a player show loyalty if a team doesnt..

heres another question..

would we all be bills fans if they were 0-16 every year for the next 25 years? would you still have loyalty to the bills?

[Tatonka]

i see people are looking at the thread but not responding... is it because we are right, BF?

[Billz_fan]

I don't know about 0-16 every year, that would be tough :D

I did sit through 76,77,78 seasons though where we won like 2,3 and 5 games or something like that. I could pretty much pick any seat in the stadium on Sundays. Does that count ?

:one man wave smile: :laughter:

[Tatonka]

i guess my point is i think, even though it is tough to imagine, even fans have a limit to their loyalty

obiviously no team could go 0-16 for 25 years.. just a hypothetical situation to make you think, how far does my loyalty to the bills go..

would you be loyal to the team if it raised its ticket prices to 400$ per seat?

[Stewie]

If you're a good football player you are only guaranteed pay a few times throughout your career, in the form of signing bonus money with each new contract. I say that because if you sign smart contracts you probably won't get cut (cause you're productive and cap friendly). Thats the bottom line.

Considering you can get a career or even life threatening on play, of course it has to be all about the $. Being set with cash and getting to play for a winner is a luxury that good players who are smart with their contracts are afforded in their careers.

Guys like Martay Jenkins may never get another chance to guarantee himself some money. If a team with Jack Kemp at QB offered him $$ he'd go in a second, and so would I in his shoes.

Maybe Sam Adams has a huge family and supports 100's of people. Crazier things have happened...

[Billz_fan]

Originally posted by Tatonka
i guess my point is i think, even though it is tough to imagine, even fans have a limit to their loyalty

obiviously no team could go 0-16 for 25 years.. just a hypothetical situation to make you think, how far does my loyalty to the bills go..

would you be loyal to the team if it raised its ticket prices to 400$ per seat?

Yeah, it's a good point, and the answer on the ticket prices is of course no. I wouldn't pay anywhere near that for a seat, not even a quarter of it.

Without the salary cap though I imagine we could see some hefty seat prices and perhaps even PPV NFL football :(

Which brings yet another question

Who here would buy PPV NFL ?

[Tatonka]

good points paul.. i pretty much agree with everything you said.. but i really didnt not start this thread about sam adams.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Billz_fan


Yeah, it's a good point, and the answer on the ticket prices is of course no. I wouldn't pay anywhere near that for a seat, not even a quarter of it.

Without the salary cap though I imagine we could see some hefty seat prices and perhaps even PPV NFL football :(

Which brings yet another question

Who here would buy PPV NFL ?

well, even as a fan that is not close to buffalo and is not concerned about buying tickets.. if they actually did that.. i would stop being a fan out of principle...

[The Spaz]

Why? Because when is enough enough! There has to be some sort of self worth to a player. Like if a player turns down a team on a decent offer and has a chance to go win the superbowl or at least go deep into the playoffs, and decides to go to a team that has no chance of doing anything close to the playoffs and signs a huge contract. It's all about trying to accomplih something in your life isn't a player or a coach going to say yeah I made a lot of money but I don't have a ring. These are life lessons that are learned at an early age and are used is in all faccets of life! This isn't a complicated answer at all! Go Bills!

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Why? Because when is enough enough! There has to be some sort of self worth to a player. Like if a player turns down a team on a decent offer and has a chance to go win the superbowl or at least go deep into the playoffs, and decides to go to a team that has no chance of doing anything close to the playoffs and signs a huge contract. It's all about trying to accomplih something in your life isn't a player or a coach going to say yeah I made a lot of money but I don't have a ring. These are life lessons that are learned at an early age and are used is in all faccets of life! This isn't a complicated answer at all! Go Bills!

i see what your saying.. but when your 45.. would you rather have the left overs of the total of the 10 million you made while in the nfl, and memories of playing in a couple playoff games (no team is a guarentee to make it, let alone win a superbowl).. or the leftovers of the 20 million you made due to a big contract? i am not implying that i would rather have the second.. this is just a question.. 10 million extra is alot of money..

[Cntrygal]

Loyalty

A vocal fan thru two 2-14 seasons, 4 lost consecutive SB's, years of "potential", a 3-13 season.... I'd say I was "loyal".

:gobills:

[The Spaz]

Some people have more meaning in there life than just money. It's about what kind of a person you are inside. What do you want people to remember you as a celebrity or a champion wouldn't you want to try and do both. Minimum for the NFL if you played for a couple of years is more tha enough to get you by and have a lot of luxurious items in your life. If you spend it all then you have issues. Go Bills!

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Cntrygal
Loyalty

A vocal fan thru two 2-14 seasons, 4 lost consecutive SB's, years of "potential", a 3-13 season.... I'd say I was "loyal".

:gobills:

hey now.. i am not saying any of you are not loyal!

i was throwing a situation out there that would be very unlikely just to make you think.. what is your loyalty limit.. it is easy to say i would be loyal no matter what.. but if the bills were 2-14 every year for the next decade and raised ticket prices 100$ per ticket, well, it would be impossible to root for that..

but i am not questioning your loyalty at all cntry.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Some people have more meaning in there life than just money. It's about what kind of a person you are inside. What do you want people to remember you as a celebrity or a champion wouldn't you want to try and do both. Minimum for the NFL if you played for a couple of years is more tha enough to get you by and have a lot of luxurious items in your life. If you spend it all then you have issues. Go Bills!

i agree..

back to the point..

teams show no loyalty to a player.. so why should a player show loyalty to a team?

[Cntrygal]

Originally posted by Tatonka
but i am not questioning your loyalty at all cntry.

Now that we have that straight... ;)

If they were to raise the tix to $100 or $400... I still couldn't afford to come to the games. But I could still go to the sportsbar and watch. IF, I lived across the street from the stadium and the tix were $100.... I still would go to the sportsbar. IMO, that doesn't make anyone less than a fan.

As far as the players.... they all make too much money to begin with to quibble over a few extra "million" dollars. If they can't survive on hundreds of thousands of dollars a year or more, they aren't getting any pity from me. In fact, for a small fee... I'd be happy to manage their paychecks, put them on a budget and hand out their "monthly allowance". :D

[The Spaz]

Why it's called the NFL. Teams have a salary cap now and everyone realizes what they are into. Go Bills!

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Cntrygal


Now that we have that straight... ;)

If they were to raise the tix to $100 or $400... I still couldn't afford to come to the games. But I could still go to the sportsbar and watch. IF, I lived across the street from the stadium and the tix were $100.... I still would go to the sportsbar. IMO, that doesn't make anyone less than a fan.

As far as the players.... they all make too much money to begin with to quibble over a few extra "million" dollars. If they can't survive on hundreds of thousands of dollars a year or more, they aren't getting any pity from me. In fact, for a small fee... I'd be happy to manage their paychecks, put them on a budget and hand out their "monthly allowance". :D

if a team willingly raised ticket rates like that, it wouldnt piss you off to the point of being discussed with them? just like you said about players.. i would think.. you guys are making penty of money, but you have to charge more for tickets?

i am also not saying you should feel sorry for a player..

do you think teams should/do have loyalty to a player? and should a player have loyalty to a team?

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Why it's called the NFL. Teams have a salary cap now and everyone realizes what they are into. Go Bills!

i will ask it again.. do you think a team has any loyalty to a player???

[The Spaz]

Yes if the player is able to accept his role and salary! Go Bills!

[Cntrygal]

Originally posted by Tatonka
back to the point..

teams show no loyalty to a player.. so why should a player show loyalty to a team?

IMO, it's a vicious cycle. I'm hoping that we are working our way back to mutual loyalty. BUT... unfortunately it all comes down to "Benjamins". I honestly think that the fans take it all ALOT more personally than most of the players. They have agents that consently remind them that it's a business.

I guess I don't have a good answer for you Tatonka. If you are producing for the team, and the team wants you back.... why should the player hold out for thousands/millions more? If they aren't producing... why should they expect to get a full paycheck??? It's supposed to be about the team, not individual. And of course... the players shouldn't find out about trades, cuts on espn or BFZ either.

Either way, they should all take paycuts (including coaches, GMs, owners) and lower the prices of tix and merchandise for us fans. :D

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Cntrygal


IMO, it's a vicious cycle. I'm hoping that we are working our way back to mutual loyalty. BUT... unfortunately it all comes down to "Benjamins". I honestly think that the fans take it all ALOT more personally than most of the players. They have agents that consently remind them that it's a business.

I guess I don't have a good answer for you Tatonka. If you are producing for the team, and the team wants you back.... why should the player hold out for thousands/millions more? If they aren't producing... why should they expect to get a full paycheck??? It's supposed to be about the team, not individual. And of course... the players shouldn't find out about trades, cuts on espn or BFZ either.

Either way, they should all take paycuts (including coaches, GMs, owners) and lower the prices of tix and merchandise for us fans. :D

very good answer..

that would be the ideal world of coarse..

unfortunately.. the salary cap will just keep going up, along with players salaries..


it is unfortunate that the game is not what it was, even 20 years ago..

the teams are all about winning because it makes them more money..

the players are all about stats because it makes them more money..

[Cntrygal]

Originally posted by Tatonka

if a team willingly raised ticket rates like that, it wouldnt piss you off to the point of being discussed with them? just like you said about players.. i would think.. you guys are making penty of money, but you have to charge more for tickets?

i am also not saying you should feel sorry for a player..

do you think teams should/do have loyalty to a player? and should a player have loyalty to a team?

Yep... it would piss me off and I'd probably never get to go to another game. (last game I was at was '84)

Yes, I think that a team should show loyalty to the players. Yes, I think that players should show loyalty to the teams. BUT.... if the players aren't producing.... why should the teams continue to pay outrageous sums of money to the players. The goal is to win championships. The players know that. So if to help with that goal, the players don't get the 14 million dollar signing bonus that they want (ie. KGB).... who cares. It should be about the TEAM.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Yes if the player is able to accept his role and salary! Go Bills!

so a team is loyal if a player takes a small check..

i dont buy it...

if a player doesnt produce, they are cut.. there is no loyalty in that.

[Cntrygal]

Originally posted by Tatonka
the teams are all about winning because it makes them more money..

the players are all about stats because it makes them more money..

Very true and very sad.

Now, I've posted longer posts than normal (multiple times) in one thread... :eek: I don't know how wys does it! :D

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Cntrygal


Yep... it would piss me off and I'd probably never get to go to another game. (last game I was at was '84)

Yes, I think that a team should show loyalty to the players. Yes, I think that players should show loyalty to the teams. BUT.... if the players aren't producing.... why should the teams continue to pay outrageous sums of money to the players. The goal is to win championships. The players know that. So if to help with that goal, the players don't get the 14 million dollar signing bonus that they want (ie. KGB).... who cares. It should be about the TEAM.

again.. great point, and i agree..

the game should be about team.. but that is fading more and more every year..

and a teams goal is championships because championships = money, more fans, merchandise, advertising

[The Spaz]

What kind of small paychecks are you taling about. You must be talking about the miltary personel who protect our country. You have to produce. Alos ther is new performance based pay whicj should give some more motivation to players. Go Bills!

[Tatonka]

small paychecks in terms of what a average nfl player makes.. i hate when people try to throw something out of context like.. look what the military makes..

guess what.. no player is gonna sign for a school teachers salary.. as noble as that may be.

[Stewie]

Originally posted by Tatonka
good points paul.. i pretty much agree with everything you said.. but i really didnt not start this thread about sam adams.

Didn't mean to imply that, just thought I'd use Sammy as an example 'cause it was so recent and glaring...

[TedMock]

It's a double edged sword. Players base their demands on what their "peers" are getting. "If he signed for $3mil than I can't possibly sign for less than $3.5. I'm proven, I had 1 more sack, I've been to 1 more pro bowl....." They've actually gone and turned millions of dollars worth of un-noticed income into an about principle thing. If you make $4mil or $5mil each year, can you really buy that much more? It's not quite the same as going from $30,000 to $100,000. Then there's the owners who have a salary cap. The cap is large enough to make everyone rich but there's that player demand thing again. Owner loves player, player's lost a step and taking up money that could go to younger, faster, stronger player, player gets cut, owner feels bad and asks player to sign one day contract and retire part of the same great organization that player was such a value to.

[Tatonka]

nice post mock.. dead on.

[Tatonka]

except the owner feeling bad thing..

i think they just have the players retire under their colors for fan appreciation.

[Gunzlingr]

Originally posted by Cntrygal
Loyalty

A vocal fan thru two 2-14 seasons, 4 lost consecutive SB's, years of "potential", a 3-13 season.... I'd say I was "loyal".

:gobills:

:rofl: I think we all feel your pain!

[BuffaloRanger]

Think about us non-football players. If you were offered 100,000 by IBM and 120,000 by Microsoft, all things being equal which would you take? Either company could "downsize" and fire you without warning.

Everything is relative. To someone making 18,000 a year sweeping floors at IBM, either would be incredible, and that person is just money hungry.

Now expand that out to football. Someone really wouldn't care what company you work for. 5 year old kids don't walk around with IBM shirts on. But a football team, although a business, is tied to the identity of the community. It is the equivalent of modern day city states fighting each other for bragging rights.

If a player snubs "your team" he is fat, not that good, money hungry. If a player signs with your team, (even though 2 days ago no one ever heard of him - Reese) he's a great pick-up for much needed depth. When a player becomes unproductive, he needs to be cut for the good of the team (and it's SB starved fans). I don't blame players for going where the money is. The only fans that do are those of the team that missed out on whatever player they wanted. Some take it as a personal insult, that "what I love isn't good enough for you? We'll screw you, you suck anyway! You're not a team player!"

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by BuffaloRanger
Think about us non-football players. If you were offered 100,000 by IBM and 120,000 by Microsoft, all things being equal which would you take? Either company could "downsize" and fire you without warning.

Everything is relative. To someone making 18,000 a year sweeping floors at IBM, either would be incredible, and that person is just money hungry.

Now expand that out to football. Someone really wouldn't care what company you work for. 5 year old kids don't walk around with IBM shirts on. But a football team, although a business, is tied to the identity of the community. It is the equivalent of modern day city states fighting each other for bragging rights.

If a player snubs "your team" he is fat, not that good, money hungry. If a player signs with your team, (even though 2 days ago no one ever heard of him - Reese) he's a great pick-up for much needed depth. When a player becomes unproductive, he needs to be cut for the good of the team (and it's SB starved fans). I don't blame players for going where the money is. The only fans that do are those of the team that missed out on whatever player they wanted. Some take it as a personal insult, that "what I love isn't good enough for you? We'll screw you, you suck anyway! You're not a team player!"

fantastic post.. i agree with you 100%