"If the bomb on 3rd and 5 had worked, we'd all think it was a great call"

[OpIv37]

This argument is inherently flawed.

The issue is NOT what would have happened if the play had worked. The issue is regarding the most intelligent course of action at that point in the game.

All we had to do was kill the clock. Two runs to the inside (on 2nd and 3rd down) may have resulted in a 1st down the way Lynch was running, and even if they didn't result in a first down, they would have taken over a minute off the clock.

The wisest course of action at that point in the game is to KILL AS MUCH CLOCK AS POSSIBLE.

We failed to do that 2 plays in a row. Our coaches took that juncture of the game to go for the knockout blow, after not doing it for the ENTIRE first 57 minutes and 30 seconds of the game. Our coaches tried to outsmart the Broncos' coaches instead of playing smart, fundamental football. It was a Mularkey moment: "This play is SO stupid that they'll never expect us to actually TRY it!"

bottom line: it was a mistake and it cost us the game.

[Philagape]

There are times to gamble. That wasn't one of them.

And I agree the outcome is irrelevant to the wisdom of any call. If, for example, something works 4 times out of 10, the 4 successes don't justify the 40 percent chance of success. If the bomb had worked, the Bills would have gotten away with playing with fire.

[MarvLevy]

JP dont NOT know how to manage a game or manage an offense for that matter. At that point, the ONLY thing that matters is the 1st down!

And I'm starting to notice another thing..this KID complains (on the field) entirely too much!!! He is a crybaby...on plays that are totally his fault.

[MarvLevy]

i see a total carry over in Pittsburgh as a result of this game...

Has this happened the last 3 years or is it just me???
1st at Jax..last year vs NE..now vs Den..all 3 we had won!!!! pitiful!!!

[kinigirly]

i felt like we were scrambling for points when we should have been slowing down. i don't know where the coaches priorities were. they threatened us multiple times, and handed us the back the game on a silver platter multiple times. you can always count on us to bend over and give away the game in the last few minutes

[PECKERWOOD]

I think they were trying to ease in Marshawn Lynch. They didn't want to ride him too hard in his first pro game and chances are he's still learning the offense. Overall, I felt like we should have spread em out and had Losman go into shotgun and throw a quick slant or something. It's seems like we had much success with this earlier on in the game, so why change it, when they couldn't stop it?

[MarvLevy]

I will say it AGAIN...JP is not a starting NFL QB..I am sorry. I know I will get ripped.

[Philagape]

Let's put it this way .... if that wasn't a bad call, then there are no bad calls ever.

If the responsibility is always on the players and not the coaches, then let's go back to Mularkey ball and try a triple-reverse flea flicker every other play. If it doesn't work, then hey, the players just didn't execute.

[MarvLevy]

This is a big loss for a simple reason...the schedule is a monster. to win a game like this gives u momentum and belief. we could very well go 0-5 to start.

[Meathead]

to have only one play of that series run time of the clock at that point is a massive blunder. just huge. unacceptably huge

the only way the staff is partially off the hook is if they told marsh beforehand that he could not go oob and he did anyway. he shouldnt need to be told but thats what a good coach does anyway

then if it was lynchs mistake they have little choice at that point to try a pass. still its a poor choice of time imo to try to complete a 50 yarder instead of a five yarder

just too many stupid ass mistakes, including the coach. god that was frustrating. its like watching high schoolers

[jamze132]

What little faith I had in Dick is now gone with his boneheaded play calls.

[SABURZFAN]

i was shocked that they went for it all.it would have been awesome had it worked.

[Historian]

A nice bootleg and a short toss to Josh Reed would have worked well at that point.

Cutler was doing it all day.

[YardRat]

If the issue has nothing to do with whether or not the play was successful, why aren't the coaches also getting ripped for calling running plays on third and nine and third and eleven in Denver territory in the first half? Those plays are low percentage, also.

Why rip them only on the stupid calls that failed? Rip them on the stupid ones that succeeded. also.

[MikeInRoch]

The ONLY reason I thought the play call was reasonable was because the clock was stopped already from the previous play. Given that it wasn't, we needed (most likely) to throw anyway to get a first down.

[OpIv37]

If the issue has nothing to do with whether or not the play was successful, why aren't the coaches also getting ripped for calling running plays on third and nine and third and eleven in Denver territory in the first half? Those plays are low percentage, also.

Why rip them only on the stupid calls that failed? Rip them on the stupid ones that succeeded. also.

they should be ripped for those plays as well. I ****ing hate the delayed draw on 3rd and long, particularly if it's 3rd and 10 or more. It's a low percentage play and it wreaks of desperation. Basically, it's a way of saying "we don't think we can actually make this 1st down so we're just going to grab a few extra yards for the punt and hope the D makes a big mistake".

[Luisito23]

particularly if it's 3rd and 10 or more. It's a low percentage play



Unless of course it's again us, and with the game on the line....





GO BILLS!!!!!!!

[Mitchy moo]

i see a total carry over in Pittsburgh as a result of this game...

Has this happened the last 3 years or is it just me???
1st at Jax..last year vs NE..now vs Den..all 3 we had won!!!! pitiful!!!

I just brought that up to somebody else, we are never losing all game and with no time left we find a way to lose.

[X-Era]

This argument is inherently flawed.

The issue is NOT what would have happened if the play had worked. The issue is regarding the most intelligent course of action at that point in the game.

All we had to do was kill the clock. Two runs to the inside (on 2nd and 3rd down) may have resulted in a 1st down the way Lynch was running, and even if they didn't result in a first down, they would have taken over a minute off the clock.

The wisest course of action at that point in the game is to KILL AS MUCH CLOCK AS POSSIBLE.

We failed to do that 2 plays in a row. Our coaches took that juncture of the game to go for the knockout blow, after not doing it for the ENTIRE first 57 minutes and 30 seconds of the game. Our coaches tried to outsmart the Broncos' coaches instead of playing smart, fundamental football. It was a Mularkey moment: "This play is SO stupid that they'll never expect us to actually TRY it!"

bottom line: it was a mistake and it cost us the game.

I agree with your comments but you put that title in quotes and that was NOT exactly what anyone said.

[Earthquake Enyart]

The bonehead play was Lynch running out of bounds, and that idiot Scobey running into the return guy.

There was still over 3 minutes to go at that point.

I liked the call and it did almost work.

[OpIv37]

The bonehead play was Lynch running out of bounds, and that idiot Scobey running into the return guy.

There was still over 3 minutes to go at that point.

I liked the call and it did almost work.

Lynch and Scobey did make bonehead plays.

But the bomb was still a low percentage play and it's stupid to use low percentage plays at crucial junctures in the game.

[RockStar36]

I liked the call.

Denver was expecting the run on 3rd down and most likely would have stuffed it. They went for the kill and it did almost work. I personally liked it. Just running the ball and hoping for a first down is like playing not to lose. Going for the win like that was like them saying we want the win and we're going for it.

It's not like we can blame that play call for the game. The defense still had a chance to hold Denver. What was it? 3rd and 23? Come on guys.

[LtBillsFan66]

I liked the call.

[OpIv37]

If you're going to pass, fine, but why do a low percentage bomb which gives the QB no opportunity to scramble?

It was an AWFUL decision to use a low percentage play that doesn't take time off the clock at that point in the game.

[RockStar36]

If you're going to pass, fine, but why do a low percentage bomb which gives the QB no opportunity to scramble?

It was an AWFUL decision to use a low percentage play that doesn't take time off the clock at that point in the game.

They tried to take advantage of Denver stacking against the run and it just about worked. I haven't seen a replay on tv but it looked like Evans had the man beat and just about caught it. Regardless, if the defense did their job on 3rd and 23 and two 4th & 2's we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[kinigirly]

my god i'm sick of this play for the rest of my life. yeah it was shocking to see it happen and it didn't help us any, but it did not cost us the game. denver screwed up over and over and handed us the game back multiple times. we gave it right back every time. one play didn't kill this game

[OpIv37]

my god i'm sick of this play for the rest of my life. yeah it was shocking to see it happen and it didn't help us any, but it did not cost us the game. denver screwed up over and over and handed us the game back multiple times. we gave it right back every time. one play didn't kill this game

the coaching and play calling was horrible all day and this is the most egregious example.

[RockStar36]

the coaching and play calling was horrible all day and this is the most egregious example.

3rd and 23.
4th and 2.
4th and 2.

That play didn't cost them the game.

[OpIv37]

3rd and 23.
4th and 2.
4th and 2.

That play didn't cost them the game.

you can argue that it did. If we had ran or even passed for the 4th down, those plays never would have happened.

[RockStar36]

Wasn't it 3rd and 5 after running the first two times? Whose to say they wouldn't have gotten the first by running it again?

[OpIv37]

Wasn't it 3rd and 5 after running the first two times? Whose to say they wouldn't have gotten the first by running it again?

the second running play went out of bounds- it was a bad call by the coaches to run outside and a bad decision by Lynch not to go down in bounds. We could have taken it to the 2 minute warning there alone.

Then, if we had ran it again on 3rd down after the 2 minute warning, it would have taken another 35-40 seconds off the clock by the time we ran the play and punted (assuming we didn't get the first- if we did get the first, we could basically kill the clock).

Denver may have used their time outs, but then when they got the ball back, it would have basically taken away the run and the middle of the field and made defense a little easier.

It was piss poor clock management and there is no excuse for it.

[justasportsfan]

I have no problem with the call. The Chicago Bulls lived and died with Jordan. IN this case, when your proven bread and butter is JP to Losman, you live and die with it.

[mysticsoto]

3rd and 23.
4th and 2.
4th and 2.

That play didn't cost them the game.

Thank you. The play after the 3rd and 23 cost us the game. In a defense that is supposed to stop big plays we should have done our usual and let them get some short yardage and made it from 3rd and 23 to 4th and 13 and then give them another 10 yds to end the game there. You don't give up a HUGE 21 yard play on 3rd and 23 that's just ridiculous!!!

That being said, the offense only scoring 1 TD the entire game was another reason why we lost.

[RockStar36]

the second running play went out of bounds- it was a bad call by the coaches to run outside and a bad decision by Lynch not to go down in bounds. We could have taken it to the 2 minute warning there alone.

Then, if we had ran it again on 3rd down after the 2 minute warning, it would have taken another 35-40 seconds off the clock by the time we ran the play and punted (assuming we didn't get the first- if we did get the first, we could basically kill the clock).

Denver may have used their time outs, but then when they got the ball back, it would have basically taken away the run and the middle of the field and made defense a little easier.

It was piss poor clock management and there is no excuse for it.

You feel completely confident that with about 35-40 seconds run off the clock that the defense would have held Denver?

Seriously man. The play calling was off all day but that one play didn't cost the game. They played scared. They didn't want to throw on Bly and Bailey it seemed. But it's on the defense. They had the game in hand and blew it when it counted. I've seen it way to many times. Sad to say, it seems like most of the times I see it in person.

[mysticsoto]

the second running play went out of bounds- it was a bad call by the coaches to run outside and a bad decision by Lynch not to go down in bounds. We could have taken it to the 2 minute warning there alone.

Then, if we had ran it again on 3rd down after the 2 minute warning, it would have taken another 35-40 seconds off the clock by the time we ran the play and punted (assuming we didn't get the first- if we did get the first, we could basically kill the clock).

Denver may have used their time outs, but then when they got the ball back, it would have basically taken away the run and the middle of the field and made defense a little easier.

It was piss poor clock management and there is no excuse for it.

I'll blame Lynch on this and not the coaches. But, being a rookie, I'm pretty sure he didn't have to worry much about clock management in college much. I chalk that up to a rookie learning experience. I bet you next time he'll throw himself on the ground as he should have...

[OpIv37]

I have no problem with the call. The Chicago Bulls lived and died with Jordan. IN this case, when you proven bread and butter is JP to Losman, you live and die with it.

stop right there- did you just compare JP Losman to Michael Jordan? I like JP but he isn't even in the same league as Jordan. Jordan consistently dominated an entire sport for his entire career. JP has shown big play ability but nothing nearly as consistent as Jordan.

And even when the Bulls went to Jordan, they used plays designed to get him high percentage shots- 15 foot jumpers or a lane to the basket. They didn't ask him to shoot a 3 pointer from 8 feet behind the arc.

The Bills had no business using a high percentage play at that point in this game.

God, the pathological need to defend asinine coaching mistakes around here drives me insane.

[OpIv37]

I'll blame Lynch on this and not the coaches. But, being a rookie, I'm pretty sure he didn't have to worry much about clock management in college much. I chalk that up to a rookie learning experience. I bet you next time he'll throw himself on the ground as he should have...


I don't buy that rookie stuff- clock management is clock management at every level of football.

[justasportsfan]

stop right there- did you just compare JP Losman to Michael Jordan? I like JP but he isn't even in the same league as Jordan. Jordan consistently dominated an entire sport for his entire career. JP has shown big play ability but nothing nearly as consistent as Jordan. . Will you try reading properly and comprehending properly. The Jordan of this team has been JP to Evans. Not JP by himself. Hello



God, the pathological need to defend asinine coaching mistakes around here drives me insane. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAMES. I'm not surprised you have the mentallity of "YOU PLAY NOT TO LOSE GAMES".


If the coaches ran a high percentage play that the Broncos expected and it didn't work, knowing you you'd be *****ing about how our coaches have no balls and are conservative. Give me a break.

[OpIv37]

You feel completely confident that with about 35-40 seconds run off the clock that the defense would have held Denver?

Seriously man. The play calling was off all day but that one play didn't cost the game. They played scared. They didn't want to throw on Bly and Bailey it seemed. But it's on the defense. They had the game in hand and blew it when it counted. I've seen it way to many times. Sad to say, it seems like most of the times I see it in person.

completely confident? No- there's a good chance the D still would have blown it. But that doesn't change the fact that the smartest possible action at that point is to kill as much clock as possible and limit Denver's chances. You want to argue that it didn't cost us the game- well, that's open to debate and we're not going to agree. But it was still a bad decision regardless of whether it actually cost us the game.

[OpIv37]

Will you try reading properly and comprehending properly. The Jordan of this team has been JP to Evans. Not JP by himself. Hello

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAMES. I'm not surprised you have the mentallity of "YOU PLAY NOT TO LOSE GAMES".


If the coaches ran a high percentage play that the Broncos expected and it didn't work, knowing you you'd be *****ing about how our coaches have no balls and are conservative. Give me a break.

ah I see- so you're excusing the coaches for playing to not lose the entire game because they picked a horrible time to gamble? that's ridiculous.

The coaches were conservative and had no balls, up until that play- then they had no ****ing brains.

I agree the game plan was too conservative and they should have gambled EARLIER in that game. They chose to gamble at the worst possible time with the greatest possible consequences.

It was an incredibly stupid thing to do. And yet, you're defending it.

[RockStar36]

You can't convince me that it was a bad call. They said, hey we can try to kill some clock and give it back to Denver or we can stick a dagger in them and put this game away. They went for it and it didn't work. I'm over it.

[mysticsoto]

I don't buy that rookie stuff- clock management is clock management at every level of football.
I really don't care if you buy that "rookie stuff" or not. Fact of the matter is - minus personal skill talent level, experience is the next big teacher. And you can discount that all you like, but if the A-Train had been in, he likely would have thrown himself to the ground on that play before reaching that close to the sidelines. Does that mean A-Train is better than Lynch? Hardly. But it means experience does count for something (which incidentally is why A-Train is even on the team)!

[OpIv37]

You can't convince me that it was a bad call. They said, hey we can try to kill some clock and give it back to Denver or we can stick a dagger in them and put this game away. They went for it and it didn't work. I'm over it.

Well, you're just plain wrong. That situation doesnt' call for a dagger- it calls for high percentage plays to win the game. We should have pulled out the dagger earlier when there was less at stake.

[RockStar36]

This reminds me of that year KC went for the win on the last play of the game instead of the chip shot field goal to tie and go to OT. They had some guts. They went for the win. That's what the Bills did yesterday. It just didn't work out the same way. That tends to happen when teams gamble.

[OpIv37]

This reminds me of that year KC went for the win on the last play of the game instead of the chip shot field goal to tie and go to OT. They had some guts. They went for the win. That's what the Bills did yesterday. It just didn't work out the same way. That tends to happen when teams gamble.

you need to pick and choose when to gamble- the Bills chose poorly.

[RockStar36]

Well, you're just plain wrong. That situation doesnt' call for a dagger- it calls for high percentage plays to win the game. We should have pulled out the dagger earlier when there was less at stake.

A run into a wall of defenders to take it down to the 2 minutes warning is not a high percentage play.

[RockStar36]

you need to pick and choose when to gamble- the Bills chose poorly.

Because it didn't work.

[mysticsoto]

You can't convince me that it was a bad call. They said, hey we can try to kill some clock and give it back to Denver or we can stick a dagger in them and put this game away. They went for it and it didn't work. I'm over it.
It was a great call and some people are...understandably angry - but they are angry at the wrong thing. The play call was made in an attempt to catch Denver in the wrong defense and they did. Evans was one-on-one and had the defender beat. The coach has no control over JP overthrowing Evans. The coaches job is to come up with a play to counter what the defense is likely to throw at them and he did. Evans also did his job and got himself open. JP screwed that play up by over throwing.

[acehole]

fIRST TIME I HAVE EVER AGREED WITH YOU WORD FOR WORD....
This argument is inherently flawed.

The issue is NOT what would have happened if the play had worked. The issue is regarding the most intelligent course of action at that point in the game.

All we had to do was kill the clock. Two runs to the inside (on 2nd and 3rd down) may have resulted in a 1st down the way Lynch was running, and even if they didn't result in a first down, they would have taken over a minute off the clock.

The wisest course of action at that point in the game is to KILL AS MUCH CLOCK AS POSSIBLE.

We failed to do that 2 plays in a row. Our coaches took that juncture of the game to go for the knockout blow, after not doing it for the ENTIRE first 57 minutes and 30 seconds of the game. Our coaches tried to outsmart the Broncos' coaches instead of playing smart, fundamental football. It was a Mularkey moment: "This play is SO stupid that they'll never expect us to actually TRY it!"

bottom line: it was a mistake and it cost us the game.

[OpIv37]

I really don't care if you buy that "rookie stuff" or not. Fact of the matter is - minus personal skill talent level experience is the next big teacher. And you can discount that all you like, but if the A-Train had been in, he likely would have thrown himself to the ground on that play before reaching that close to the sidelines. Does that mean A-Train is better than Lynch? Hardly. But it means experience does count for something (which incidentally is why A-Train is even on the team)!

That would make sense, if Lynch were 13 and this was his first modified Jr high football team. But things like clock management are fundamental at every level of football. There is no way in hell that Lynch got this good without someone explaining the basics to him, and clock management is the basis. He should have known better.

That being said, I still blame Fairchild at least equally for not running between the tackles on that play.

[OpIv37]

It was a great call and some people are...understandably angry - but they are angry at the wrong thing. The play call was made in an attempt to catch Denver in the wrong defense and they did. Evans was one-on-one and had the defender beat. The coach has no control over JP overthrowing Evans. The coaches job is to come up with a play to counter what the defense is likely to throw at them and he did. Evans also did his job and got himself open. JP screwed that play up by over throwing.

there are much higher percentage plays that would have countered what Denver was doing.

[mysticsoto]

there are much higher percentage plays that would have countered what Denver was doing.

Denver was countering all our "high" percentage plays all day long. This was the 1st chance we finally got to throw a bomb which is supposed to be what JP and Evans are good at...

[Historian]

Well, you're just plain wrong. That situation doesnt' call for a dagger- it calls for high percentage plays to win the game. We should have pulled out the dagger earlier when there was less at stake.

Really.

For a minute there...I thought Jauron was channeling Mularkey.

[OpIv37]

Because it didn't work.

no, it would have been a bad call even if it did work. That's the whole point of this thread. You need to play the percentages. If you make $50,000 a year and have $15,000 in the bank, betting $100 at the casino isn't going to hurt you too much. But if you live paycheck to paycheck and have $28 in the bank, betting $100 of your $200 paycheck at the casino may mean you don't eat that week.

That's what the Bills did. Sometimes gambling is appropriate, and sometimes the stakes are too high. For some stupid ass reason, the Bills decided to put the entire week's food budget on black for one spin.

[RockStar36]

Not every single throw will be right on the money. I still haven't seen a TV replay of it but from the stands it looked like it could have been hauled in.

[OpIv37]

Denver was countering all our "high" percentage plays all day long. This was the 1st chance we finally got to throw a bomb which is supposed to be what JP and Evans are good at...

well there are two options- use a different high percentage play, or pick a play that will at least kill the clock if it doesn't work. We did neither.

[RockStar36]

no, it would have been a bad call even if it did work. That's the whole point of this thread. You need to play the percentages. If you make $50,000 a year and have $15,000 in the bank, betting $100 at the casino isn't going to hurt you too much. But if you live paycheck to paycheck and have $28 in the bank, betting $100 of your $200 paycheck at the casino may mean you don't eat that week.

That's what the Bills did. Sometimes gambling is appropriate, and sometimes the stakes are too high. For some stupid ass reason, the Bills decided to put the entire week's food budget on black for one spin.

That play gave Denver one extra play basically. Was it really that much of a gamble?

[Earthquake Enyart]

my god i'm sick of this play for the rest of my life. yeah it was shocking to see it happen and it didn't help us any, but it did not cost us the game. denver screwed up over and over and handed us the game back multiple times. we gave it right back every time. one play didn't kill this game
I'm more in love with you with every post.

Sure you don't date older men? We could keep it quiet like Val and Dozer. No one would ever know.

[mysticsoto]

That would make sense, if Lynch were 13 and this was his first modified Jr high football team. But things like clock management are fundamental at every level of football. There is no way in hell that Lynch got this good without someone explaining the basics to him, and clock management is the basis. He should have known better.

That being said, I still blame Fairchild at least equally for not running between the tackles on that play.

Every college player that comes out (including Lynch) has commented about how fast paced the NFL is compared to college. Guess what? His inexperience didn't make him realize he should have thrown himself to the ground to ensure the clock kept running. If you ask him, should he have done it, of course he'll say, "Hell yes" like a college player or even a high school player would. But knowing it and thinking to do it fast enough when you are being chased and trying to get around the corner for a 1st down are things that separate experienced players from non-experienced players. You can try and discount that all you like, but being that you complain so much about experience and how much we lost with Fletcher and Nate, I am kind of surprised to see you now discount it b'cse it doesn't support your POV and your need to be angry and the select plays you've chosen...

[Historian]

RS..we hadn't hit on a long one all day.

Why in the world they thought they could there astounds me.

And despite the fact that LE was wide open, Losman's pass was nowhere near him.

I still can't believed they called it.

[BAM]

Yeah but that's not why we lost anyway so it doesn't matter. Everybody laid an egg yesterday.

[mysticsoto]

well there are two options- use a different high percentage play, or pick a play that will at least kill the clock if it doesn't work. We did neither.

With the way our defense was playing, I don't doubt that they still would have made it down the other way. They just would have called longer plays, but they still would have likely completed them given that we really weren't rushing Cutler at all...

[RockStar36]

RS..we hadn't hit on a long one all day.

Why in the world they thought they could there astounds me.

And despite the fact that LE was wide open, Losman's pass was nowhere near him.

I still can't believed they called it.

Exactly, they didn't call it all day. They then caught Denver off guard when they actually did.

[Historian]

Exactly, they didn't call it all day. They then caught Denver off guard when they actually did.

Unfortunately, your 72 yards passing QB, who looked terrible all day, was asked to connect on a very low percentage pass, against the best secondary in football.

Jauron should have known better.

A nice shovel pass or rollout would have probably gotten it done.

Just like Cutler used on us all day long.

[mysticsoto]

no, it would have been a bad call even if it did work. That's the whole point of this thread. You need to play the percentages. If you make $50,000 a year and have $15,000 in the bank, betting $100 at the casino isn't going to hurt you too much. But if you live paycheck to paycheck and have $28 in the bank, betting $100 of your $200 paycheck at the casino may mean you don't eat that week.

That's what the Bills did. Sometimes gambling is appropriate, and sometimes the stakes are too high. For some stupid ass reason, the Bills decided to put the entire week's food budget on black for one spin.

Well, everyone has their likes and dislikes of their team, but me personally...I don't want a team that is going to be timid and not attack. JP needs to step it up. 97 yds in an entire game is ridiculous and he needs to get better at short passes if teams are going to game plan taking the long bombs away and play 8 up to limit what Lynch can do. I realize that Denver has great CBs that covered our WRs well, but that's not going to be enough for me to excuse JP from having such a horrid day. And if JP doesn't shape up, Trent might take over in '08!

[justasportsfan]

When you have a KO punch you use it. I don't have a problem going for the KO then ,my problem was not going for it early. We should've tested Denvers chin early.

[chernobylwraiths]

I wonder how many of those that hated the long pass call hated the 4th and 1 call last year at New England?

Sure I would have liked them to have gone down the field a couple more times during the game, but for some reason they didn't. That actually HELPED in trying to make the play a success since Denver obviously wouldn't think they would try that in that situation. Add to that Lee Evans and JP Losman are pretty good at the long pass plays and that gives a best possible chance to succeed. Denver was caught by surprise, the offensive line blocked it well, Evans got behind the coverage and the pass was a little off. Evans also should be to blame a little as it seemed that he looked over his wrong shoulder.

[OpIv37]

That play gave Denver one extra play basically. Was it really that much of a gamble?

considering they ran the last play with 2 seconds left, yeah, it was a HUGE gamble.

[OpIv37]

Well, everyone has their likes and dislikes of their team, but me personally...I don't want a team that is going to be timid and not attack. JP needs to step it up. 97 yds in an entire game is ridiculous and he needs to get better at short passes if teams are going to game plan taking the long bombs away and play 8 up to limit what Lynch can do. I realize that Denver has great CBs that covered our WRs well, but that's not going to be enough for me to excuse JP from having such a horrid day. And if JP doesn't shape up, Trent might take over in '08!

I agree on Trent and on being more aggressive- I just think they picked the worst possible time to do it. Being aggessive doesn't have to mean being stupid.

[BAM]

if this, if that, should've, could've, yada yada yada

We lost period. And for several reasons. ;)

:beers:

[OpIv37]

if this, if that, should've, could've, yada yada yada

We lost period. And for several reasons. ;)

:beers:

it was a terrible play call and the coaches should be accountable for it whether it was the reason we lost or not.

[justasportsfan]

win with the jab and running away to preserve a slight margin.

Screw that, go for the KO.

[CSFAN]

I can't stand it when coaches get conservative too early. There is no doubt in my mind - if that pass is complete, EVERYONE on the Bills is brilliant. The criticism would be just as vocal if we run up the middle, get stopped, punt & they drive it out for the winning FG. At least with the pass, we're playing to win.

I hate it when coaches don't play to win, and play not to lose, instead...

[CSFAN]

I can't stand it when coaches get conservative too early. There is no doubt in my mind - if that pass is complete, EVERYONE on the Bills is brilliant. The criticism would be just as vocal if we run up the middle, get stopped, punt & they drive it out for the winning FG. At least with the pass, we're playing to win.

I hate it when coaches don't play to win, and play not to lose, instead...

[BAM]

There were at least 5 other plays that combined to cost us the game.

Not to mention all the mishaps on Denver's side to pretty much give us the game. Too many ifs to blame it all on one specific play.

[OpIv37]

win with the jab and running away to preserve a slight margin.

Screw that, go for the KO.

yeah, screw winning! Let's prove we have balls!

[justasportsfan]

yeah, screw winning! Let's prove we have balls!
based on they way we couldn't stop them, the jab couldn't have stopped them.

Playing not to lose is for losers.

[OpIv37]

There were at least 5 other plays that combined to cost us the game.

Not to mention all the mishaps on Denver's side to pretty much give us the game. Too many ifs to blame it all on one specific play.

you can debate whether or not it cost us the game and we're not going to agree on that. But it's irrelevant because it was a bad call either way.

[OpIv37]

based on they way we couldn't stop them, the jab couldn't have stopped them.

so you play the percentages and the jabs were the higher percentage. Was it guaranteed? No, but it would have put the odds in our favor. Fairchild chose to put the odds in their favor and they won. Stupid.

[Philagape]

win with the jab and running away to preserve a slight margin.

Screw that, go for the KO.

Screw winning?

[BAM]

Bad call yes. So were several others. I saw bad calls all day not just on that 3rd and 5. I don't know what the heck Fairchild was doing.

[justasportsfan]

so you play the percentages and the jabs were the higher percentage. Was it guaranteed? No, but it would have put the odds in our favor. Fairchild chose to put the odds in their favor and they won. Stupid.



I don't give a rats ass, the jab was not working. we kept going 3 and out. Time to try something else. How about our KO punch that has KO'd teams before . what a novel idea. Again my problem wasnot going for it earlier. Otherwise, YOU PLAY TO WIN. Playing not to lose is for wussies.

[CSFAN]

"Screw winning"

Can you say with confidence that if we go conservative on that play & run, we win the game?

[OpIv37]

I don't give a rats ass, the jab was not working. we kept going 3 and out. Time to try something else. How about our KO punch that has KO'd teams before . what a novel idea. Again my problem wasnot going for it earlier. Otherwise, YOU PLAY TO WIN. Playing not to lose is for wussies.

you're ignoring the clock issue- one way to play to win is to not give the other team a chance on offense. We could have eliminated or at least greatly reduced their chances by taking some time off the clock. But no, we had to go for the dick measuring contest instead. We won that but lost the game.

[OpIv37]

"Screw winning"

Can you say with confidence that if we go conservative on that play & run, we win the game?

I already answered that: no, but running out the clock puts the odds in our favor and going for the big play puts the odds in their favor. Guess what happened?

We have a young, inexperienced team that needs confidence and confidence comes from wins, not gambles.

[CSFAN]

"I already answered that: no, but running out the clock puts the odds in our favor and going for the big play puts the odds in their favor. Guess what happened? "

You're assuming that by running on that play, we're running out the clock. I've seen too many games where exactly the opposite happens. A team goes conservative, doesn't get the 1st, the other team gets the ball & drives for the winner.

This is all hindsight stuff. The thread is right; if he connects we're praising the brilliance of putting the game away...

[justasportsfan]

you're ignoring the clock issue- one way to play to win is to not give the other team a chance on offense. We could have eliminated or at least greatly reduced their chances by taking some time off the clock. But no, we had to go for the dick measuring contest instead. We won that but lost the game.

Again, we went with our KO punch. LIke I said, knowing you if we ran and it didn't work (which didn't earlier) you'd be *****ing about something else like "we're too conservative,blah,blah.blah. "

[Philagape]

"Screw winning"

Can you say with confidence that if we go conservative on that play & run, we win the game?

We would have had a much better chance.

When Denver got the ball back the way they did, you just knew they would score. They had over 2 minutes left and needed a FG. That is exactly the kind of drive the Cover 2, and ours in particular, can't stop. They exploited it perfectly with underneath routes and bootlegging.
If the Bills had kept the clock running, that leaves Denver with less time and/or fewer timeouts. That makes a huge difference on the ensuing drive. That means Denver has to go downfield more, take more chances and increase the chance of a TO. That's the kind of drive the Cover 2 is designed for.
It's pretty amazing that Denver got the FG off in time. TWO SECONDS meant the difference between winning and losing. So yes, Bills call a different play, they win.

By choosing a play that had a good chance of stopping the clock, we told the Broncos, "Don't worry, in addition to giving you the ball back, we'll take a time out for you." It was a monumental blunder.

[OpIv37]

"I already answered that: no, but running out the clock puts the odds in our favor and going for the big play puts the odds in their favor. Guess what happened? "

You're assuming that by running on that play, we're running out the clock. I've seen too many games where exactly the opposite happens. A team goes conservative, doesn't get the 1st, the other team gets the ball & drives for the winner.

This is all hindsight stuff. The thread is right; if he connects we're praising the brilliance of putting the game away...

even if we had done it, it wasn't brilliance- it was luck. You can't win games on low percentage plays.

If you put your entire life savings on one spin of roullette and win, you're a millionaire, but if you lose, you're a moron. Winning doesn't make you brilliant, it makes you lucky.

It's not hindsight stuff- high percentage plays are more likely to work than low percentage plays. The staff knew that when they called the play, which makes it stupid.

[justasportsfan]

even if we had done it, it wasn't brilliance- it was luck. You can't win games on low percentage plays.

If you put your entire life savings on one spin of roullette and win, you're a millionaire, but if you lose, you're a moron. Winning doesn't make you brilliant, it makes you lucky.

It's not hindsight stuff- high percentage plays are more likely to work than low percentage plays. The staff knew that when they called the play, which makes it stupid.


I will always go for the KO.

[OpIv37]

I will always go for the KO.

gutsy but foolish.

[CSFAN]

They were trying to out-guess the defense. Yes, it's lower percentage, but it's not like we were guaranteed a 1st down if we ran. They were betting the D would assume we were going conservative.

How many times in the past few years have we seen the greats - Colts, Pats, Chargers, et al. - winning games by taking a gamble, or not going with the "best percentage play" on their board? Compare that to how many times we have pulled our hair out watching the Bills try to run out the clock, get stuffed & give up the winning score.

It's not a stupid call, or a great call, but it IS an example of playing to win. Again, I've seen too many Bills teams play "not to lose" to not at least support something like this once in awhile.

[justasportsfan]

gutsy but foolish.
you win and lose with your proven weapons. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Always go for the juggular

[mchurchfie]

That play brought back memories of Kevin Gilbride. That was just plain dumb. Please don't tell me that Evans being one on one couldn't have beat that corner on an out or comeback pattern for a first down:cynic:

[mchurchfie]

Always go for the juggularThey should have started about three quarters before that then.

[OpIv37]

you win and lose with your proven weapons. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Always go for the juggular

I'm really surprised to hear this coming from you. You can't always go for the jugular- you have to set up the knockout blow. You go for the knockout blow when the person leaves themselves open, not when they're in a position to kick out your teeth if you miss.

[justasportsfan]

Please don't tell me that Evans being one on one couldn't have beat that corner on an out or comeback pattern for a first down:cynic:
he couldn't the entire game.

[RockStar36]

It's always something.

Blame him and blame that. Stupid, dumb, idiots.

Sometimes it must suck being a Bills fan.

[mchurchfie]

he couldn't the entire game.
That's because he wasn't singled up the whole game. That was one his first few opportunities.

[Philagape]

They were trying to out-guess the defense. Yes, it's lower percentage, but it's not like we were guaranteed a 1st down if we ran.

In that case, keeping the clock running is just as good as a first down.

And the way Lynch was running, putting the ball in his hands was a good bet. It could have been a swing to Lynch. Or something short to Reed or Parrish or Royal or even Price. Or a bootleg. Anything to keep the clock moving.

[CSFAN]

"Sometimes it must suck being a Bills fan."

It actually sucks most of the time.

[Philagape]

It's always something.

Blame him and blame that. Stupid, dumb, idiots.

Sometimes it must suck being a Bills fan.

When fans ***** about the Bills losing, it's the Bills who have a problem, not the fans. It's the Bills who need to change what they're doing, not us.

[justasportsfan]

I'm really surprised to hear this coming from you. You can't always go for the jugular- you have to set up the knockout blow. You go for the knockout blow when the person leaves themselves open, not when they're in a position to kick out your teeth if you miss.

Why are you surprised coming from me?

YOu have a knock out punch use it. You can't tell Mike Tyson to use his jabs and soften a bigger opponent . HIs jabs are not his proven weapon, his KO punch is just like JP to Evans is ours. Again, the only problem I have is that we didn't go with it sooner. Instead all we did was try to soften them up with our jabs . That would've been fine if we tried the KO punch well too.


Tyson was not made for to win via decision. The bills aren't built for that either. If Lynch proves down the road then fine. But like I said, my problem in that we didn't go for the juggular sooner.

[Philagape]

Mike Tyson got his ass kicked by smarter fighters who weren't afraid of him.

[mchurchfie]

It's always something.

Blame him and blame that. Stupid, dumb, idiots.

Sometimes it must suck being a Bills fan.
Ralphie LOVES people like you. Just keep selling out his stadium and he'll keep lining his pockets with the money he is saving by putting an inferior product out on the field.:up:

[mchurchfie]

Why are you surprised coming from me?

YOu have a knock out punch use it. You can't tell Mike Tyson to use his jabs and soften a bigger opponent . HIs jabs are not his proven weapon, his KO punch is just like JP to Evans is ours. Again, the only problem I have is that we didn't go with it sooner. Instead all we did was try to soften them up with our jabs . That would've been fine if we tried the KO punch well too.


Tyson was not made for to win via decision. The bills aren't built for that either. If Lynch proves down the road then fine. But like I said, my problem in that we didn't go for the juggular sooner.
JP has no jab.

[justasportsfan]

Mike Tyson got his ass kicked by smarter fighters who weren't afraid of him.
Haha! Mike TYson's personal life is what did him in.

[CSFAN]

If anyone thinks that Ralph Wilson doesn't want to win, they're nuts...

[RockStar36]

Ralphie LOVES people like you. Just keep selling out his stadium and he'll keep lining his pockets with the money he is saving by putting an inferior product out on the field.:up:

I don't have season tickets but I do go to several games a year. I do my part. Do you? Or do you just ***** and moan when they don't do well? I'm sure once they start winning you'll jump on the bandwagon and be the #1 Bills fan.

My point is that if you're going to be so overly negative all the time, what is the point? That can't be any fun.

[OpIv37]

Why are you surprised coming from me?

YOu have a knock out punch use it. You can't tell Mike Tyson to use his jabs and soften a bigger opponent . HIs jabs are not his proven weapon, his KO punch is just like JP to Evans is ours.


He's not made for to win via decision. The bills aren't built for that either. If Lynch proves down the road then fine. But like I said, my problem in that we didn't go for the juggular sooner.

yeah but Mike Tyson never held back his knockout punch for 4 rounds then tried to deliver it when his opponent was standing 4 feet away and had his hands in perfect blocking position. If he did, he would have left himself open to a counter punch and been knocked on his ass.

Besides, I don't know where you get off saying JP to Evans is a proven weapon when we couldn't make it work all game. It worked last year against other teams, but it was never proven against Denver.

I agree we should have gone for the jugular sooner- in those instances, the stakes are much less. And if we had done that, it might have backed the D off and made Lynch's job easier. I don't have a problem with throwing the bomb in general- in fact, I think every team has to do it and we especially have to do it since it's one of the few things we've done effectively. I just think the coaches picked the worst possible time to try to use it.

[justasportsfan]

yeah but Mike Tyson never held back his knockout punch for 4 rounds then tried to deliver it when his opponent was standing 4 feet away and had his hands in perfect blocking position. If he did, he would have left himself open to a counter punch and been knocked on his ass. .thanks for making my point. WE shouldn't have held it back. ;)



Besides, I don't know where you get off saying JP to Evans is a proven weapon when we couldn't make it work all game. It worked last year against other teams, but it was never proven against Denver.

I agree we should have gone for the jugular sooner- in those instances, the stakes are much less. And if we had done that, it might have backed the D off and made Lynch's job easier. I don't have a problem with throwing the bomb in general- in fact, I think every team has to do it and we especially have to do it since it's one of the few things we've done effectively. I just think the coaches picked the worst possible time to try to use it.

JP to Evans is the best weapon we have offensively until Lynch proves to be another weapon down the road.

[mchurchfie]

I don't have season tickets but I do go to several games a year. I do my part. Do you? Or do you just ***** and moan when they don't do well? I'm sure once they start winning you'll jump on the bandwagon and be the #1 Bills fan.

My point is that if you're going to be so overly negative all the time, what is the point? That can't be any fun.
I still have my hundred dollar jacket that I bought when they were 2-14 with Joe Ferguson and Co. I've lived with the ups and downs of this team for over 25 years so please don't look down your nose at me just because I'm not all warm and fuzzy about yesterday's loss. Just because people disapprove of and critique the team play doesn't make them any less loyal than you. This team has been spinning its wheels with one boneheaded move after another for the last seven years and it is really getting old. It is very apparent by their play yesterday that we aren't any farther ahead this year than last year. But you keeping pissing in the wind and telling us how sweet the rain tastes while we hold the fan for you, ok JR?:up:

[Philagape]

Lynch was a pretty good weapon yesterday.

And if you want to go for the jugular, do it when failure doesn't mean giving the other team the ball with 2+ minutes left. We all know how that worked out multiple times last year. The defense just doesn't know how to make a stop in the clutch.

[Philagape]

Loving the team means hating threats to the team, including from within.

[Philagape]

Haha! Mike TYson's personal life is what did him in.

I see your boxing analysis is no better than football. :peace:

[mchurchfie]

We should have been dumping the ball off to Lynch a lot more. he looks like he is ready to break one everytime he has the ball in open space. I would have been doing my best Kelly to Thurman imitation yesterday if I was JP...oh that's right, he has trouble throwing the short pass to RBs.

[RockStar36]

I still have my hundred dollar jacket that I bought when they were 2-14 with Joe Ferguson and Co. I've lived with the ups and downs of this team for over 25 years so please don't look down your nose at me just because I'm not all warm and fuzzy about yesterday's loss. Just because people disapprove of and critique the team play doesn't make them any less loyal than you. This team has been spinning its wheels with one boneheaded move after another for the last seven years and it is really getting old. It is very apparent by their play yesterday that we aren't any farther ahead this year than last year. But you keeping pissing in the wind and telling us how sweet the rain tastes while we hold the fan for you, ok JR?:up:

I'm usually a glass is half full kind of fan but this season will most likely turn me into more of a negative fan. I'm tired of them being the laughing stock of the league. I'm tired of those close games going the other way. I'm tired of not making the playoffs.

But in all reality, I didn't expect them to win yesterday. I thought it was probably going to be over going into the 4th quarter. I also realize it's only week 1 and they have time to correct some things. I also like the play call to go deep when they did.

All I'm saying is that it must suck to wake up in the morning and just be instantly negative all the time. I don't get the point of watching and following the team if that is the case. Save yourself some stress and headaches and go watch something else if that is the case.

[Philagape]

It could have been on second down on the same drive and I'd be OK with it. Leave yourself another chance if it doesn't work.

[justasportsfan]

Lynch was a pretty good weapon yesterday.
he wasn't a consistent weapon. what do you think got us to 3rd and 5 in the first place?

Buffalo Bills at 03:32
1-10-BUF 33 (3:32) 23-M.Lynch up the middle to BUF 36 for 3 yards (58-N.Webster).
2-7-BUF 36 (2:51) 23-M.Lynch right end pushed ob at BUF 38 for 2 yards (55-D.Williams).


Don you honestly think Denver wasn't ready for him?



And if you want to go for the jugular, do it when failure doesn't mean giving the other team the ball with 2+ minutes left. We all know how that worked out multiple times last year. The defense just doesn't know how to make a stop in the clutch.


Like I said, you live and die with your best player. It also sends an message to Evans, "we have all the confidence in you, we'll put the ball in your hands when we need it most. "

[Philagape]

I predicted a Bills loss yesterday too, but it was a winnable game. Nothing pisses me off like losing winnable games.

[Philagape]

he wasn't a consistent weapon. what do you think got us to 3rd and 5 in the first place?

Buffalo Bills at 03:32
1-10-BUF 33 (3:32) 23-M.Lynch up the middle to BUF 36 for 3 yards (58-N.Webster).
2-7-BUF 36 (2:51) 23-M.Lynch right end pushed ob at BUF 38 for 2 yards (55-D.Williams).

43 seconds between plays. That's the key stat. Another one of those, different ending.

[justasportsfan]

43 seconds between plays. That's the key stat. Another one of those, different ending.


SO what? I still would've gone with our best player. Again it wasn't just that one play that lost us the game.

[Philagape]

The SO what is Denver loses the time they needed to win the game.


In a close game, there are lots of one plays that lost us the game.

[RockStar36]

The SO what is Denver loses the time they needed to win the game.


In a close game, there are lots of one plays that lost us the game.

You can't say that and be 100% correct.

It just would have changed the way they ran those last 2 minutes against the D.

[justasportsfan]

The SO what is Denver loses the time they needed to win the game.


In a close game, there are lots of one plays that lost us the game.
again the game was not lost by that single play. If I had to do it all over again I'd send the same message to Evans, "we trust you and will live and die with you. You and JP are our captains , if we can't show confidence in you then who can we go to? "

Maybe, just maybe that might factor in when an extension is needed.


I'd rahter lose with them than lose with a rookie ... for now.

[Philagape]

You can't say that and be 100% correct.

It just would have changed the way they ran those last 2 minutes against the D.

I'll take 90, 80, 70 or 60 percent. Still better odds than what we did.

And I explained how changing the way those last 2 minutes are run would have been more in our favor.

[CSFAN]

It's funny how some people are talking about the time, and assuming that Denver would have run the clock exactly the same so "wouldn't have had that last second."

We run & get stopped, they still have 2 minutes - plenty o' time...

[Philagape]

again the game was not lost by that single play. If I had to do it all over again I'd send the same message to Evans, "we trust you and will live and die with you. You and JP are our captains , if we can't show confidence in you then who can we go to? "


I'd rahter lose with them than lose with a rookie ... for now.

How about "Hey Lee, I trust you to run a slant or crossing route?" "JP, I trust you to convert a short pass?" "JP, I trust you to run for it?" "JP, I trust you to make a smart decision?"

I'd rather win.

[justasportsfan]

It's funny how some people are talking about the time, and assuming that Denver would have run the clock exactly the same so "wouldn't have had that last second."

We run & get stopped, they still have 2 minutes - plenty o' time...
It's easier once the facts arfe in. Hindsight 20/20.

[mchurchfie]

I'm usually a glass is half full kind of fan but this season will most likely turn me into more of a negative fan. I'm tired of them being the laughing stock of the league. I'm tired of those close games going the other way. I'm tired of not making the playoffs.


Good, now you know how me and a lot of other people feel.




But in all reality, I didn't expect them to win yesterday. I thought it was probably going to be over going into the 4th quarter. I also realize it's only week 1 and they have time to correct some things. I also like the play call to go deep when they did.



I didn't either but Denver was handing the game to them on a platter and they still bumbled it away with inexplainable playcalling and mindless miscues and mistakes. That's what makes it more disappointing.



All I'm saying is that it must suck to wake up in the morning and just be instantly negative all the time. I don't get the point of watching and following the team if that is the case. Save yourself some stress and headaches and go watch something else if that is the case.

I stopped letting the Bills dictate my life about 20 years ago so I don't have stress and headaches, that's what seperates me from being a bandwagoner. Other than the play of Lynch and Poz, who both look like the real deal, what do you want to talk about that was positive about yesterday?? Its kind of slim pickings, isn't it? I'm not a negative nancie, I call it the way i see it. I like watching them and rooting for them every week and WILL continue to. It does get a little old walking away from the tv shaking your head when they find a new way to lose every week though, you have to admit.

[justasportsfan]

How about "Hey Lee, I trust you to run a slant or crossing route?" "JP, I trust you to convert a short pass?" ?".they did that all day and it didn't work. SO we keep doing what hasn't worked?



"JP, I trust you to run for it?" "JP, I trust you to make a smart decision. ?".
sorry, not in their playbook :idunno:




I'd rather win.
so would I and again it wasn't just that one play.

[mysticsoto]

SO what? I still would've gone with our best player. Again it wasn't just that one play that lost us the game.
Justa, you are in a lose-lose situation here. If the Bills had chosen to run it and Lynch gets stuffed (a likely outcome given that they packed everyone on the line) and they still win the game, then you get the same people here *****ing about the Bills needing to throw more bombs and that that would have been the perfect opportunity to fool their defense and attack them with Evans and they'd whine about how timid our offense is and how we need to open our playbook more to throws and take some chances.

As multiple people have said already, it's easy to criticize in hindsight. Truth of the matter is, we played poorly in many facets of the game and at multiple points. What happens if McGee actually makes the interception? Maybe we win? What happens if Scobey doesn't give them a free 15 yard play by not being stupid? What happens if Lindell actually makes his very doable field goal? What happens if our defense actually played and stopped them after the 3rd and 23? The whole game was full of plays that could have swung us around to winning...

[justasportsfan]

Justa, you are in a lose-lose situation here. If the Bills had chosen to run it and Lynch gets stuffed (a likely outcome given that they packed everyone on the line) and they still win the game, then you get the same people here *****ing about the Bills needing to throw more bombs and that that would have been the perfect opportunity to fool their defense and attack them with Evans and they'd whine about how timid our offense is and how we need to open our playbook more to throws and take some chances.

As multiple people have said already, it's easy to criticize in hindsight. Truth of the matter is, we played poorly in many facets of the game and at multiple points. What happens if McGee actually makes the interception? Maybe we win? What happens if Scobey doesn't give them a free 15 yard play by not being stupid? What happens if Lindell actually makes his very doable field goal? What happens if our defense actually played and stopped them after the 3rd and 23? The whole game was full of plays that could have swung us around to winning...


:up:

:posrep:

[RockStar36]

I stopped letting the Bills dictate my life about 20 years ago so I don't have stress and headaches, that's what seperates me from being a bandwagoner. Other than the play of Lynch and Poz, who both look like the real deal, what do you want to talk about that was positive about yesterday?? Its kind of slim pickings, isn't it? I'm not a negative nancie, I call it the way i see it. I like watching them and rooting for them every week and WILL continue to. It does get a little old walking away from the tv shaking your head when they find a new way to lose every week though, you have to admit.

I have no problem admitting it. It's the life of a Buffalo sports fan. I found that out last spring. It's always something. Seriously, standing in the crown during those last two minutes I just kept staring at the clock praying for the time to hit 0:00 because I had that gut feeling they would find a way to lose. Reminds me of the Jacksonville game I was at. Same feeling.

[Philagape]

they did that all day and it didn't work. SO we keep doing what hasn't worked?

WRONG. At that point JP was passing 70 PERCENT, almost all on short passes. FACT.

70 percent. No other call would have given us those odds.

[justasportsfan]

WRONG. At that point JP was passing 70 PERCENT, almost all on short passes. FACT.

70 percent. No other call would have given us those odds.
here are the plays prior to that pass


Buffalo Bills at 00:54

1-10-BUF 33 (3:32) 23-M.Lynch up the middle to BUF 36 for 3 yards (58-N.Webster).
2-7-BUF 36 (2:51) 23-M.Lynch right end pushed ob at BUF 38 for 2 yards (55-D.Williams).
3-5-BUF 38 (2:43) 7-J.Losman pass incomplete deep right to 83-L.Evans. Overthrown, receiver at DEN 10.


the series before that......Buffalo Bills at 11:54

1-10-BUF 21 (11:54) 23-M.Lynch right tackle to BUF 22 for 1 yard (94-J.Moss, 55-D.Williams).
2-9-BUF 22 (11:16) 7-J.Losman pass incomplete short left to 23-M.Lynch. Thrown away after pressure by S.Adams. Receiver along sideline at BUF 30.
3-9-BUF 22 (11:05) (Shotgun) 7-J.Losman pass short left to 11-R.Parrish to BUF 33 for 11 yards (79-M.Thomas). PENALTY on DEN-28-J.Shoate, Face Mask (15 Yards), 15 yards, enforced at BUF 33.
1-10-BUF 48 (10:41) 28-A.Thomas left end to BUF 46 for -2 yards (55-D.Williams).
2-12-BUF 46 (9:58) 28-A.Thomas left guard to BUF 47 for 1 yard (94-J.Moss, 58-N.Webster).
3-11-BUF 47 (9:18) (Shotgun) 7-J.Losman pass short middle to 28-A.Thomas to DEN 45 for 8 yards (52-I.Gold). Screen, caught at 50.



Sorry I don't see that 70 percent . Your 70 looks good on paper but it isn't an acurate statement of how Jp was doing. Take note of the time difference between series. JP could not get into a rythm in the short passing game.

[YardRat]

they should be ripped for those plays as well. I ****ing hate the delayed draw on 3rd and long, particularly if it's 3rd and 10 or more. It's a low percentage play and it wreaks of desperation. Basically, it's a way of saying "we don't think we can actually make this 1st down so we're just going to grab a few extra yards for the punt and hope the D makes a big mistake".

I like the delayed draw, personally. One of the more memorable plays from the glory years...Kelly and Thomas & Co. had it down to an art form.

[Philagape]

here are the plays prior to that pass


Buffalo Bills at 00:54

1-10-BUF 33 (3:32) 23-M.Lynch up the middle to BUF 36 for 3 yards (58-N.Webster).
2-7-BUF 36 (2:51) 23-M.Lynch right end pushed ob at BUF 38 for 2 yards (55-D.Williams).
3-5-BUF 38 (2:43) 7-J.Losman pass incomplete deep right to 83-L.Evans. Overthrown, receiver at DEN 10.


the series before that......Buffalo Bills at 11:54

1-10-BUF 21 (11:54) 23-M.Lynch right tackle to BUF 22 for 1 yard (94-J.Moss, 55-D.Williams).
2-9-BUF 22 (11:16) 7-J.Losman pass incomplete short left to 23-M.Lynch. Thrown away after pressure by S.Adams. Receiver along sideline at BUF 30.
3-9-BUF 22 (11:05) (Shotgun) 7-J.Losman pass short left to 11-R.Parrish to BUF 33 for 11 yards (79-M.Thomas). PENALTY on DEN-28-J.Shoate, Face Mask (15 Yards), 15 yards, enforced at BUF 33.
1-10-BUF 48 (10:41) 28-A.Thomas left end to BUF 46 for -2 yards (55-D.Williams).
2-12-BUF 46 (9:58) 28-A.Thomas left guard to BUF 47 for 1 yard (94-J.Moss, 58-N.Webster).
3-11-BUF 47 (9:18) (Shotgun) 7-J.Losman pass short middle to 28-A.Thomas to DEN 45 for 8 yards (52-I.Gold). Screen, caught at 50.



Sorry I don't see that 70 percent . Your 70 looks good on paper but it isn't an acurate statement of how Jp was doing. Take note of the time difference between series. JP could not get into a rythm in the short passing game.

:rofl: He completed 2 out of 3 for 19 yards!! 67 percent! So in your attempt to cherry pick stats you actually repeated my point! Thank you, and I'm sorry if my number and your number were off by a whopping 3 percentage points! :roflmao:

See how defending Dick at all costs ties you into a knot?

[justasportsfan]

:rofl: He completed 2 out of 3 for 19 yards!! 67 percent! So in your attempt to cherry pick stats you actually repeated my point! Thank you, and I'm sorry if my number and your number were off by a whopping 3 percentage points! :roflmao:

See how defending Dick at all costs ties you into a knot?
cherry pick? did you look at the time in between plays? He didn't have enough throws to accurately say he was 70% or in any such rythm. You're the one spinning the stats to make that 70% look better than it really is. Must be from the Stats School of Wys.



I am not defending Dick but I will always defend the saying YOU PLAY TO WIN the GAME.

[Philagape]

cherry pick? did you look at the time in between plays? He didn't have enough throws to accurately say he was 70% or in any such rythm. You're the one spinning the stats to make that 70% look better than it really is. Must be from the Stats School of Wys.


70 percent is 70 percent. That's his performance from the game. He was completing the short throws; the problem was, he was doing it when they needed a lot more. But on a 3rd and 5 that would have been the right call.
You're the one trying to make it look worse.

And if you want to spin it with "rhythm," what rhythm was there for a long bomb? It was their first try!

[justasportsfan]

70 percent is 70 percent. That's his performance from the game. He was completing the short throws; the problem was, he was doing it when they needed a lot more. But on a 3rd and 5 that would have been the right call.
You're the one trying to make it look worse.

And if you want to spin it with "rhythm," what rhythm was there for a long bomb? It was their first try!

The difference between great teams and mediocre ones is that great teams PLAY TO WIN.The rst plays not to lose.

This team isn't good right now and playing not to lose isn't gonna get it done. that 70% fact does not paint the entire picture. You watched the game, JP's wasn't getting it done with the short passes ON A CONSITENT BASIS.You want that 70% to look better than it really was go for it.

[Philagape]

The difference between great teams and mediocre ones is that great teams PLAY TO WIN.The rst plays not to lose.

This team isn't good right now and playing not to lose isn't gonna get it done. that 70% fact does not paint the entire picture. You watched the game, JP's wasn't getting it done with the short passes ON A CONSITENT BASIS.You want that 70% to look better than it really was go for it.

He was getting it done with the short passes, but they needed medium passes. That was the problem. You want 100 percent before you call it consistent? Go find another league.

Great teams play smart. The call was dumb.

[justasportsfan]

He was getting it done with the short passes, but they needed medium passes. That was the problem. You want 100 percent before you call it consistent? Go find another league.

Great teams play smart. The call was dumb.
oh well. We'll agree to disagree. I like the call . I hope he makes more gutsy calls like that. Like the other gutsy call he made to go for it on 4th down. Maybe that was stupid too but it worked therfore genius.

[paladin warrior]

HUMM Bills Should Kick Field gaol each QTs.. Denver did Kick FG each Qts. Plus :baghead: JP threw 97 Yards. LOOk bad

[OpIv37]

I like the delayed draw, personally. One of the more memorable plays from the glory years...Kelly and Thomas & Co. had it down to an art form.

I don't mind the delayed draw as a play- I just hate it on 3rd and long. Even if it worked back in the day, after 20 years of teams using that play on 3rd down, D's aren't caught off guard anymore.