Hey Ingtar33?

[mchurchfie]

Where are we at with this team Ingtar? How about a thread with your first impressions of the 2007 Bills. What is going on with our secondary and the huge chunks of yardage they are giving up? Do really think JP is a legitimate NFL QB? This board needs a little expert analysis to put things into perspective and calm everyone down a little.

[justasportsfan]

This board needs a little expert analysis to put things into perspective and calm everyone down a little. says the arson.:biggrin:

[mchurchfie]

says the arson.:biggrin:Shush.:D

[Ingtar33]

ah.

well, they're about where i thought they would be.

1) anyone watching what marv is doing can tell he's trying to build with the draft. anyone who's taking that course is aiming for playoffs/superbowl in 4 years. this is year no.2. Look at the best teams in the league, they are almost universally, built through the draft. Just look at the colts, did you know that the colts have just 4 people on their roster who was not drafted by their team? Marv isn't trying to recreate the redskins, and their perpetual mediocrity, like Tom Donahoe tried to do. Now the question remains, can the bills coaching staff and management succeed?

2) our roster has question marks up and down it. largely though, we're weak at WR, RG, CB, DT, WLB.

3) Losman looks like the same guy he was last year, which is unfortunate. The guy we got last year was good enough to be an NFL starter, but little else. At the moment, i think, assuming that JP doesn't take any more steps forward, we have basically a jeff blake clone at QB. A guy just good enough you will be reluctant to change direction, who shows you just enough that you think he'll turn the corner. It's too early to tell if this is as good as it gets. Though we'll know for sure at the end of this year. With a good team around him (just like with jeff blake), and a weak schedule he'll take you to the playoffs.

4) Special Teams and Penalties are a good indicator of coaching. This team is well coached, from monday through saturday. Better coached then at any time since levy. As to game day, i know a lot of people are on the staff... but im not seeing horrible problems with them on game day. When you lose a lot of criticism tends to be thrown at the team, and coaches get a lot of it. Today i think those critiques are largely misplaced. We've got a staff good enough to get us into the playoffs if we had the horses. We don't.

5) the talent level on this team is mediocre, a half decade of horrible drafts (butler's last, most of donahoes) have left the pool dry. this is not something you fix with free agency. Combined with the letting go of key free agents... like pat williams and nate clements, and you have a serious problem. (i don't consider letting players go who were signed as free agents as detrimental as losing players drafted by the team)

there you go. a brief run down.

[mchurchfie]

Thank you Sir!:up:

[northernbillfan]

Thanks for the perspective as you see it. As always you shed the right kind of light on our situtaion as fans.

I've mentioned in another thread that this is year 2, but many fans want immediate results due to the lack of a competitive team on the field.

[mchurchfie]

ah.

well, they're about where i thought they would be.

1) anyone watching what marv is doing can tell he's trying to build with the draft. anyone who's taking that course is aiming for playoffs/superbowl in 4 years.
Him and Ralph must be optimistic, that's like dogyears to those two.:laugh:

[jdbillsfan]

I agree you with you about our staff. I still like it. We don't have a lot of penalties and I think we do pretty well considering our talent level.

I have also been a fan of JP and hoping that he continues to improve, but I am ready to move on. I think at this point, you usually see more from a QB, not less. He didn't look good in the preseason and doesn't look good now.

I am ready for the Trent Edwards experiment. I think you can put him in at the end of some of our games if we are getting blown out, then maybe make the official switch during the bye week.

[shelby]

i don't think any of us realistically expected great things of this team this year. However, this was the first game of 16. i am still cautiously optimistic that the front office, coaching staff, and the players who are still healthy can pull together to make some sort of progress this season.

Thanks for the reality check, Ingtar.

[Ingtar33]

not a problem.

I knew when i was trolling/lurking before the season started that a lot of people were irrationally hopeful for this season.

I sorta was expecting this.

That said, what i saw out of them yesterday, was a lot of the same i saw from them after the bye last year. We'll struggle, we might not post a better record then last year, but we'll not be as bad as we were at the beginning of last year.

I see a lot of good and some descent potential in what we have.

Between Whitner, Crowell and Poz, we have a solid heart to the D. Throw in an elite pass rusher, and what looks like a better group of DTs (age makes DTs better, i knew even though we had not really added anyone to the middle of the squad the group would be better then they were last year) and the team isn't going backwards.

[BidsJr]

not a problem.

I knew when i was trolling/lurking before the season started that a lot of people were irrationally hopeful for this season.

I sorta was expecting this.

That said, what i saw out of them yesterday, was a lot of the same i saw from them after the bye last year. We'll struggle, we might not post a better record then last year, but we'll not be as bad as we were at the beginning of last year.

I see a lot of good and some descent potential in what we have.

Between Whitner, Crowell and Poz, we have a solid heart to the D. Throw in an elite pass rusher, and what looks like a better group of DTs (age makes DTs better, i knew even though we had not really added anyone to the middle of the squad the group would be better then they were last year) and the team isn't going backwards.


Do you have any insight on Edwards? If the season goes south is he a legitamate option, or would be burning a 1st rounder next year?

[Ingtar33]

I've no clue. i can't judge from watching pre-season. i thought he looked like a classic west coast offense QB.

great on the short routs.... good pocket awareness.

I don't know for sure.

[Bmax]

I looking forward to see what Youbooty has to offer ..He will get tested plenty with Hines ward and holmes and Moss and others coming up ...I still would like to see the bills throw more over the middle Looking for Royal on occasion... On the def side Mccargo may help down the road ..but we need more pass rush fron Kelsey and crew...

I thought we might be 8-8 at best with worst case being 5-11....

Can u say another top 10 pick....Frank Okam DT from Texas

Bmax

[Nighthawk]

ah.

well, they're about where i thought they would be.

1) anyone watching what marv is doing can tell he's trying to build with the draft. anyone who's taking that course is aiming for playoffs/superbowl in 4 years. this is year no.2. Look at the best teams in the league, they are almost universally, built through the draft. Just look at the colts, did you know that the colts have just 4 people on their roster who was not drafted by their team? Marv isn't trying to recreate the redskins, and their perpetual mediocrity, like Tom Donahoe tried to do. Now the question remains, can the bills coaching staff and management succeed?

2) our roster has question marks up and down it. largely though, we're weak at WR, RG, CB, DT, WLB.

3) Losman looks like the same guy he was last year, which is unfortunate. The guy we got last year was good enough to be an NFL starter, but little else. At the moment, i think, assuming that JP doesn't take any more steps forward, we have basically a jeff blake clone at QB. A guy just good enough you will be reluctant to change direction, who shows you just enough that you think he'll turn the corner. It's too early to tell if this is as good as it gets. Though we'll know for sure at the end of this year. With a good team around him (just like with jeff blake), and a weak schedule he'll take you to the playoffs.

4) Special Teams and Penalties are a good indicator of coaching. This team is well coached, from monday through saturday. Better coached then at any time since levy. As to game day, i know a lot of people are on the staff... but im not seeing horrible problems with them on game day. When you lose a lot of criticism tends to be thrown at the team, and coaches get a lot of it. Today i think those critiques are largely misplaced. We've got a staff good enough to get us into the playoffs if we had the horses. We don't.

5) the talent level on this team is mediocre, a half decade of horrible drafts (butler's last, most of donahoes) have left the pool dry. this is not something you fix with free agency. Combined with the letting go of key free agents... like pat williams and nate clements, and you have a serious problem. (i don't consider letting players go who were signed as free agents as detrimental as losing players drafted by the team)

there you go. a brief run down.

Sorry, Ingtar...I respect your opinions, but I think you are way off base with some stuff. First, please don't try to tell me that Marv is making the decisions...he's not. He is a face for this organization, not a real GM...IMO and many others, Modrak or somebody else is making the calls. Secondly, it is very apparent that this coaching staff is NOT good enough. I don't understand where you see this coaching staff being good enough because I don't see it. This team doesn't make adjustments and they don't ever seem to have a game plan in place.

As I said earlier, I respect your opinion, but highly disagree with you on those points.

[Devin]

If Ingtar says it I believe it, guy knows his stuff.

Thanks for the insight man.

[Ingtar33]

that's fair nighthawk, I've been wrong before, and i'll be wrong again. Front office guys are wrong all the time, the idea is, if you're wrong your mistake isn't a big one.

Though i think you might want to re-read what i wrote. Nowhere did i talk about modrak, or who's calling the player personnel shots.

I said it was obvious that the "philosophy" behind the player personnel decisions had changed since donahoe. Since modrak was here for both men, i can assume it's marv who's changed the goal of the front office, and the general philosophy.

That hardly seems like a "figurehead"

But again, i can only judge based on what i've seen.

As to the staff, they have 2 of the 3 hallmarks of a well coached team.

the three hallmarks of a well coached team are-
1) good special teams
2) low penalties
3) good time management

the time management has been hit and miss. hence why i said, as a team, from Monday through Saturday, they are as well coached a team as any time since the Levy era.

Now... some of their game day decision are questionable, but it's not halfway as egregious as it used to be under philips, williams, or mularky. We're a fairly well coached team compared to most of the teams in the league.

If anything, considering how poor our talent level is, we overachieved last year. if we had the jaguars talent, we probably would have won the division last year (thats a team thats been murdered by terrible coaching).

[Dozerdog]

Great stuff Ingtar!


I'm sure the injuries we were hammered with this week won't help. Simpson's injury I think will have the biggest impact

[Mitchy moo]

Ingtar,

I have some simple matters to bring up.

1. How do you considering good coaching from M-F?? I personally can give 2 rats azzes what happens M-F, i want results on Sunday. If you fail on Sunday you failed during the week.

2. Losman had 97 yards passing, this is worse than last year not better. Staying the same he should be in the 150-200 range. He's regressing and looked lost and scared, which is sad.

3. Bobby April is the ST coach and lumping "good coaching" for ST and giving the rest of the coaches any credit is a joke. Do you think the Bills made wise coaching choices sunday in general?? Well coached ST I'll buy, past that forget it.

4. We have talent on the team (Evans, schobel, POZ, Lynch), it's just not managed properly. There are times we think we our outsmarting our opponent but we are outsmarting ourselves. Going 56.5 minutes without attempting a long ball and then expecting it to work like a charm is being more than naive don't you think? Especially when you need like 5 yards to basically win the game.

All in all, we have fundementally poor coaches making poor decisions come gameday. The game planning is there but the lack of adjustments is just staggering in itself. I also see that the things that work (like grinding out yards through Lynch's legs) just don't get used again. We gained yards almost everytime Lynch touched the ball but yet he sees less work. The A-train was derailed all day and Fast freddie rode the pine when really needed. Field the most competitive team based on talent at the players position, no ego's.

P.S. Edwards needs to see field time, the JP experiment is over.

[Ingtar33]

i don't really disagree with anything you're saying skooby. Most of what you said was addressed or alluded to.

Bobby April was run out of St. Louis on a rail, largely because the terrible coaching staff there sabotaged the special teams under him.

Special Teams are not one coach's ball of wax. With the exceptions of the kickers, he doesn't actually have any players on his staff exclusively. Most head coaches put huge constraints on the amount of time spent practicing and which players can play it.

Its not uncommon for d-coordinators to tell special teams coaches they can't have anyone on the starting unit. the same of o-coordinators. Then you come down to the final rosters, a lot of coaches chose backups for reasons other then special teams.

To claim our special teams are the function of just bobby april is to miss the boat entirely. DJ, and the rest of the staff sacrificed time, to allow the unit to practice, in some cases, sacrificed starters, to potential career ending injuries, to play on the unit.

Special teams are a whole team affair.

Lack of penalties, speak to careful, detail oriented coaching. Well coached teams often lead the league or are close to leading the league in the fewest penalties. Last year the bills were one of the best in the league in this stat, and yesterday they had, what? 6 penalties all game? That's a fantastic game.

-that speaks to a very organized and careful coaching staff, who has drilled and disciplined the team well. You might call the training camps "club med", but DJ and the staff have clearly got their teams attention, and been spending their time well, drilling the players well.

now then, as to losman, i don't see how you can read what i wrote about him, and see it as a "defense" of his ability.

Lest you forget i hated the pick, when he was drafted. And remained very luke warm about him. In this thread I compared him to jeff blake, I'd hardly call that a compliment or ringing endorsement.

[Mr. Pink]

Ingtar, I think your comparison of JP to Blake is a little off...I've thought since seeing highlights of him in college and then his draft scouting report that he was Kyle Boller.

Blake actually had a couple seasons where he put up good numbers with Pickens as his main target. Boller trips over his own feet most of the time, much like JP.

[Mitchy moo]

i don't really disagree with anything you're saying skooby. Most of what you said was addressed or alluded to.

Bobby April was run out of St. Louis on a rail, largely because the terrible coaching staff there sabotaged the special teams under him.

Special Teams are not one coach's ball of wax. With the exceptions of the kickers, he doesn't actually have any players on his staff exclusively. Most head coaches put huge constraints on the amount of time spent practicing and which players can play it.

Its not uncommon for d-coordinators to tell special teams coaches they can't have anyone on the starting unit. the same of o-coordinators. Then you come down to the final rosters, a lot of coaches chose backups for reasons other then special teams.

To claim our special teams are the function of just bobby april is to miss the boat entirely. DJ, and the rest of the staff sacrificed time, to allow the unit to practice, in some cases, sacrificed starters, to potential career ending injuries, to play on the unit.

Special teams are a whole team affair.

Lack of penalties, speak to careful, detail oriented coaching. Well coached teams often lead the league or are close to leading the league in the fewest penalties. Last year the bills were one of the best in the league in this stat, and yesterday they had, what? 6 penalties all game? That's a fantastic game.

-that speaks to a very organized and careful coaching staff, who has drilled and disciplined the team well. You might call the training camps "club med", but DJ and the staff have clearly got their teams attention, and been spending their time well, drilling the players well.

now then, as to losman, i don't see how you can read what i wrote about him, and see it as a "defense" of his ability.

Lest you forget i hated the pick, when he was drafted. And remained very luke warm about him. In this thread I compared him to jeff blake, I'd hardly call that a compliment or ringing endorsement.

Word, the Jeff Blake thing cannot be construde as anything but a mockery. My bad and your cool.

[Mitchy moo]

Blake actually had a couple seasons where he put up good numbers with Pickens as his main target. Boller trips over his own feet most of the time, much like JP.

The guy next to me asked me did a lineman step on his foot when he tripped and I said that's Mr. Balance himself JP. Freaking Kelly only fell down when his foot was stepped on or the ball got snapped crooked to start. JP needs ballet classes or something.

[Ingtar33]

i don't think jeff blake ever had a season with a QBR over 82.

[TigerJ]

Thanks, Ingtar. If your assessment of Losman turns out to be accurate, the one saving grace is that Trent Edwards looks like he could be exceptional. I'm not in favor of pulling the trigger on Losman too quickly, but If we get to the end of the season and he hasn't taken a leap forward, I would not hesitate to make the switch, or at least have a wide open competition in training camp next year.

[Ingtar33]

that's about where i am tj.

I am an optimist. The light could switch on and he could be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

The only way i'd be in favor of swapping him out before the end of the year is if we head into the last half of the schedule at 0-8, and jp played a bunch of games like he did in week 1.

[Ingtar33]

-btw: did you see leinart's and smith's numbers?

I swear, if the bills were in the nfc, we'd be division champs.

m.leinart: 14-28 102 1td 2int
a.smith: 15-31 126 0td 0int

note, those numbers came against two mediocre defenses. wow... i mean wow.

[Ebenezer]

that's about where i am tj.

I am an optimist. The light could switch on and he could be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

The only way i'd be in favor of swapping him out before the end of the year is if we head into the last half of the schedule at 0-8, and jp played a bunch of games like he did in week 1.
which, sadly, could happen considering the state of the defense and the schedule ahead of them...Losman and the offense could throw up respectable numbers and the team might be winless.

[Ebenezer]

-btw: did you see leinart's and smith's numbers?

I swear, if the bills were in the nfc, we'd be division champs.

m.leinart: 14-28 102 1td 2int
a.smith: 15-31 126 0td 0int

note, those numbers came against two mediocre defenses. wow... i mean wow.
those numbers hurt my eyes...

[DraftBoy]

The thing that I see that hurt Losman (and Ingtar please correct me if you disagree) is head when making decisions, Im not sure he is reading defenses nearly as well as we all want him to or seeing blitzes and making the adjustments. Also with that he is not making the right throws on the short to intermediate routes, he makes the low percentage throw trying to use his arm strength to gun it in there. To top it off his footwork is extremely poor (very similar to Blake) and his happy feet cause him to miss passes alot.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Losman looks just like Rob Johnson to me, and not just physically.

He has talent, a gun for an arm, and what appears to be a ten cent brain. :::

[Ingtar33]

so i dug up a thread posted after last years week 1 loss to Denver

why?

Because i think it's interesting how we were all thinking... (that and i was bored)

[Night Train]

It shows your view of the team was basically spot on. Outstanding job. :up:

How about a current update, much like last Sept. ?

[Ingtar33]

well it's a little less interesting this year, mostly because i think i largely have nothing insightful to add to what is mostly the consensus on this board, though I'll toss in my two cents.

1) the bills defense will finish rated somewhere around 8-15... and I'd lean more toward 15th... we're alright, not amazing on defense. We're really a player or three away from a top 5 defense... and until we turn that corner, we'll be good back there, but never "great" and we'll struggle shutting down top offenses (we shut down the chargers more because we held the ball for 10 more minutes then SD held the ball)

2) our offense is close to really clicking. I think part of the missing piece is a poor running game. if we could run the ball better then average, this team could be a top 5 offense in this league. I love the play calling more then anything else.

3) our need positions are Center, Right Guard, and Defensive End. We need to boost the pass rush from the front 4, to turn this defense into an elite unit; someone better then Ellison couldn't hurt too.

4) this year, the team might not be good enough to win a playoff game on the road. And it's definitely not good enough to win the superbowl as is. To win the superbowl you need to do "something" (typically defense) better then everyone else in the playoffs. Unfortunately this team doesn't do anything that well, which will kill us when we run into a team with an elite offense/defense.

5) we're still well coached; and im willing to say that from monday through sunday.

6) it's nice to say with confidence that Morman isn't our best player anymore. I don't think I've been able to say that for 5 or 6 seasons now... this is clearly Edwards team.

[Dr. Lecter]

Ing, what has happened to Butler this year?

He was much better last year.

And do you consider safety or TE a need?

[justasportsfan]

well it's a little less interesting this year, mostly because i think i largely have nothing insightful to add to what is mostly the consensus on this board, though I'll toss in my two cents.

1) the bills defense will finish rated somewhere around 8-15... and I'd lean more toward 15th... we're alright, not amazing on defense. We're really a player or three away from a top 5 defense... and until we turn that corner, we'll be good back there, but never "great" and we'll struggle shutting down top offenses (we shut down the chargers more because we held the ball for 10 more minutes then SD held the ball)

2) our offense is close to really clicking. I think part of the missing piece is a poor running game. if we could run the ball better then average, this team could be a top 5 offense in this league. I love the play calling more then anything else.

3) our need positions are Center, Right Guard, and Defensive End. We need to boost the pass rush from the front 4, to turn this defense into an elite unit; someone better then Ellison couldn't hurt too.

4) this year, the team might not be good enough to win a playoff game on the road. And it's definitely not good enough to win the superbowl as is. To win the superbowl you need to do "something" (typically defense) better then everyone else in the playoffs. Unfortunately this team doesn't do anything that well, which will kill us when we run into a team with an elite offense/defense.

5) we're still well coached; and im willing to say that from monday through sunday.

6) it's nice to say with confidence that Morman isn't our best player anymore. I don't think I've been able to say that for 5 or 6 seasons now... this is clearly Edwards team.

:10:

Our ST isn't as good as it's been in the past. Hopefully it'll get back to what it once was but I understand there have been a lot of changes with Stamer and Haggan leaving and I realize it takes time for the newbies to get on track.

I wonder if Moorman is on the decline. How the hell does a punter get cramps?

[Ingtar33]

Ing, what has happened to Butler this year?

He was much better last year.

And do you consider safety or TE a need?


Butler wasn't that good last year.

we really have two mediocre/backup quality players starting on the line

as to TE its not a pressing need.. i consider it something similar to the Sam (SLB) position, assuming Crowell is done in Buffalo. Our offense certainly could use a great TE, but they're few and far between, and i think 25 other teams could use one too. We've got an NFL quality starting TE, but that's all i can say about him.

We could do better then Simpson, but i don't think it's as "needed" as either SLB or TE, and as i just got through saying... i don't think either of those positions are really needed, not in the sense of giving up draft picks in trades, and certainly not to the point of spending a top 2 round pick on it.

I'd like to see us spend our top two picks on the lines this off season (RG/C or DE)

[Dr. Lecter]

Simpson is not a starter anymore, so that is concering. I like Scott, but he is not a long term solution. It is possible that Simpson will need another offseason to fully recover from the ankle break, but if the staff does not have confidence in him they need a safety to replace Scott as a starter (unless Wilson really steps up.

A SLB would be nice, at least for depth. Ellison is OK, but a much better back-up (especially with his versatility) than a starter.

As for Butler, I really thought he came on last years as the season progressed. Of course, I agree on center and would not mind the Bills getting the top ranked center in this years draft, even if it involves a trade (maybe trading down from the first round to early 2nd?)

And if they are looking at O-line, I prefer finding one in FA if they go after any key FA's. A OLB can step in as a rookie and start easier than a G/C or a DE.

[mchurchfie]

Butler seems to have lost that nasty edge he had last year.

[Typ0]

4) this year, the team might not be good enough to win a playoff game on the road. And it's definitely not good enough to win the superbowl as is. To win the superbowl you need to do "something" (typically defense) better then everyone else in the playoffs. Unfortunately this team doesn't do anything that well, which will kill us when we run into a team with an elite offense/defense.




this is very much much in line with what I have been saying about defense for years. Defense does not win championships but lack of defense loses them.

[John Doe]

Bobby April was run out of St. Louis on a rail, largely because the terrible coaching staff there sabotaged the special teams under him.

Special Teams are not one coach's ball of wax. With the exceptions of the kickers, he doesn't actually have any players on his staff exclusively. Most head coaches put huge constraints on the amount of time spent practicing and which players can play it.

Its not uncommon for d-coordinators to tell special teams coaches they can't have anyone on the starting unit. the same of o-coordinators. Then you come down to the final rosters, a lot of coaches chose backups for reasons other then special teams.

To claim our special teams are the function of just bobby april is to miss the boat entirely. DJ, and the rest of the staff sacrificed time, to allow the unit to practice, in some cases, sacrificed starters, to potential career ending injuries, to play on the unit.

Special teams are a whole team affair.

Lack of penalties, speak to careful, detail oriented coaching. Well coached teams often lead the league or are close to leading the league in the fewest penalties. Last year the bills were one of the best in the league in this stat, and yesterday they had, what? 6 penalties all game? That's a fantastic game.

-that speaks to a very organized and careful coaching staff, who has drilled and disciplined the team well. You might call the training camps "club med", but DJ and the staff have clearly got their teams attention, and been spending their time well, drilling the players well.


Thanks for the great insight into special teams play Ingtar.

As for the low penalties, Shula's squad's were usually one of the lowest penalized teams every year, and the commentators always noted that it was no accident - it was a sign of good coaching.