Is Marv in danger of having his legacy here tainted?

[patmoran2006]

The real short version...

As a head coach, he's undisputably going down as the best in franchise history. He retires and soon after goes into the Hall of Fame (deservedly, not many coaches could've managed such a bunch of talented egos like that)

However, he's also heading down the path as one of; if not the worst GM in the history of this club.

Through 2 seasons, his free agent pluckings have been a complete and utter joke. He's overpaid for one dimensional rotating players like Kelsay and Schobel that strap the team from improving against the run with $35 million guarenteed to the two. He's drafted decent but given the QB mess in Buffalo you have to scratch your head how he could pass over Jay Cutler and then Nick Mangold in favor of Donte Whitner and John McCargo.

Debate that forever, but at the end of the day this is a 0-3 football team, a team that has somehow gotten at best as bad as the 2001 Bills and threatens to rival the teams of the mid 80's as the worst in franchise history.

By clearly being in over his head at his age and this capacity of a job, if he doesn't gracefully retire at year's end and the losing tradition continues in Buffalo; does this taint his legacy?

[Mr. Pink]

Even shorter...

As a coach...no.

[PECKERWOOD]

Lou Saban was a great coach for us as well. Marv will always be remembered for what he did for the Bills in the 90's.

[gr8slayer]

Funny you mention that, I was having this conversation with a friend the other night. I think he needs to jump ship while he can, his shortcomings as a GM are quickly making me forget his great years as a coach.

[churchinski]

The real short version...

As a head coach, he's undisputably going down as the best in franchise history. He retires and soon after goes into the Hall of Fame (deservedly, not many coaches could've managed such a bunch of talented egos like that)

However, he's also heading down the path as one of; if not the worst GM in the history of this club.

Through 2 seasons, his free agent pluckings have been a complete and utter joke. He's overpaid for one dimensional rotating players like Kelsay and Schobel that strap the team from improving against the run with $35 million guarenteed to the two. He's drafted decent but given the QB mess in Buffalo you have to scratch your head how he could pass over Jay Cutler and then Nick Mangold in favor of Donte Whitner and John McCargo.

Debate that forever, but at the end of the day this is a 0-3 football team, a team that has somehow gotten at best as bad as the 2001 Bills and threatens to rival the teams of the mid 80's as the worst in franchise history.

By clearly being in over his head at his age and this capacity of a job, if he doesn't gracefully retire at year's end and the losing tradition continues in Buffalo; does this taint his legacy?It not just that 1st draft it's the free agents he signs.

None of the free agents he has brought in from other teams have made an impact.

[SABURZFAN]

not at all.if anything,it shows that he will do anything to right the ship in Buffalo.because of his age and inexperience,he will make mistakes.let's not forget that he took over a bad team.you can't turn that around overnight.

[Elminster]

When all is said and done, people remember the good times....

[Bill Brasky]

not at all.if anything,it shows that he will do anything to right the ship in Buffalo.because of his age and inexperience,he will make mistakes.let's not forget that he took over a bad team.you can't turn that around overnight.
amen!

his legacy won't be tainted at all, IMO. you can't improve a team on chump change.

this team has been against bringing in free agents before he was even in control. the decisions he's made through the draft (which is how they said they would rebuild) have been decent.

you guys are turning a blind eye to his draft moves (Poz, Whitner, Lynch) and focusing on the free agent signings he's made when we all know that this organization won't pony up for good free agents. it's not his fault he has to shop at the bargain bin.

[patmoran2006]

amen!

his legacy won't be tainted at all, IMO. you can't improve a team on chump change.

this team has been against bringing in free agents before he was even in control. the decisions he's made through the draft (which is how they said they would rebuild) have been decent.

you guys are turning a blind eye to his draft moves (Poz, Whitner, Lynch) and focusing on the free agent signings he's made when we all know that this organization won't pony up for good free agents. it's not his fault he has to shop at the bargain bin.
Agreed and there are few people out there bigger Marv fans than me (as a coach)

But don't you think he's LARGELY responsible for the collective trash that this team currently has, chump-change or not?

HOw would this team be different if we had signed a better guard than Tutan Reyes? Or we signed a different tight end other than Robert Royal? Maybe if we found a better #2 WR than Peerless Price, Lee Evans would be more effective. We don't need two safeties in the draft if he did better than Matt Bowen.. Would we be singing the same tune about this team and the QB mess had Levy recognized Losman's shortcomings a year ago and plucked Cutler in the draft instead of Whitner, a nice player but hardly a franchise guy. What if he went the Jim Kelly route (who always said the most important player to his offensive days was Kent Hull) and grabbed Nick Mangold.

This team is a mess, and Levy is laregly responsible for it today.

Like I said, know its a touchy deal.. Levy is well respected. But as a GM he is inadvertently butchering this franchise even further than when it was TD's team.

[Bill Brasky]

I'll give you this... his FA have sucked. But like I said, I think he's handcuffed to the whole cash to the cap garbage. This really limits his ability to fix this team.

The team had so many needs when he got here. It's obvious his strategy, at least through free agency, has been to try and make quick fixes all at once.

Maybe had he focused on bringing in 1 or 2 quality free agents and worried about the rest later he could have built better.

I really think he walked into an impossible situation and is doing the best he can given what he's allowed to work with.

I'm not placing the blame of this terrible joke of a team on just 1 guy, especially the one and only guy within the organization that has a proven track record (as a coach, at least)

[patmoran2006]

I'll give you this... his FA have sucked. But like I said, I think he's handcuffed to the whole cash to the cap garbage. This really limits his ability to fix this team.
I dont disagree with you. He is behind the 8 ball with that for sure. Still, the money he has spent has been spent very poorly. I'm not sure if a SINGLE free agent we've signed in two years has amounted to anything positive.

The team had so many needs when he got here. It's obvious his strategy, at least through free agency, has been to try and make quick fixes all at once.
They had many needs when he got here, and we have as many if not more in his second year. He's failed miserably with quick fixes.

Maybe had he focused on bringing in 1 or 2 quality free agents and worried about the rest later he could have built better.
Agreed, but I also think you're right about the cash to cap so I do give him maybe there was 1-2 guys he really coveted that he couldn't the OK to sign.

I really think he walked into an impossible situation and is doing the best he can given what he's allowed to work with.
He walked into a bad situation and is making it worse in my opinion. WE werent talented enough to contend when he got here. No denying that. But now we are committing more and more money guarenteed to players that are NOT going to help this team turn the corner. $14 mill guarenteed to Kelsay; $21 locked up to Schobel; both of when do only one thing well, and seem to be off the field an awful lot....$10 million contracts to PRice, Reed and Royal. $25 million to an average right tackle. The future doesnt look bright when so many of the problems, not the solutions are getting locked up. If we extend Losman and he fails, forget about it; we're set back 5 years.

I'd also like to say that I think Jauron and his staff are HORRIBLE, and that is 100% directly on Marv's hands.

I'm not placing the blame of this terrible joke of a team on just 1 guy, especially the one and only guy within the organization that has a proven track record (as a coach, at least)
you make a good point. If I came across as singling out Levy I apologize. It starts with Wilson. I'd bet my life Levy doesnt leave $18 million in cap space on the table with THIS team if it wasn't for Wilson.... I do hold Marv second-most accountable though for the hiring of the head coach and free agent flops. Well I shouldn't say flops because most were never good to begin with.. Irrelevent FA's is a better term.. This past draft looks awesome but in retrospect, 2006 not so much when you consider our needs and what was otu there for us to get, and what we came away with (not that Whitner and McCargo suck, I just dont think they are IMPACT players)

[YardRat]

Marv's legacy is cemented. The only perceived short-coming he has is in the FA market, and the blame for that will be placed on Ralph.

Levy won't be tainted, but Ralph will.

[patmoran2006]

Wilson is not in question.
He cant even get through a press conference anymore without ****ing up.

But I dont buy blaming FA strictly on Wilson. Even with spending less than other teams, we've spent enough that our FA's should be better than what we have.. I mean honestly, Melvin Freekin Fowler is probably the best FA under the marv regime, and at BEST he's a dime a dozen center.

[gr8slayer]

Wilson is not in question.
He cant even get through a press conference anymore without ****ing up.

But I dont buy blaming FA strictly on Wilson. Even with spending less than other teams, we've spent enough that our FA's should be better than what we have.. I mean honestly, Melvin Freekin Fowler is probably the best FA under the marv regime, and at BEST he's a dime a dozen center.
I've been pretty impressed with Dockery thus far.

[SABURZFAN]

What if he went the Jim Kelly route (who always said the most important player to his offensive days was Kent Hull) and grabbed Nick Mangold.

This team is a mess, and Levy is laregly responsible for it today.

Like I said, know its a touchy deal.. Levy is well respected. But as a GM he is inadvertently butchering this franchise even further than when it was TD's team.


that was the only time i was upset with Marv.i wanted us to draft Mangold so bad.


c'mon pat,you know damn well that he inherited a team worse than the Reptilian Orgasms. :snicker:

[Devin]

0-16 would taint anyones legacy.

[SABURZFAN]

0-16 would taint anyones legacy.


:ill:

[Bill Brasky]

i wanted us to draft Mangold so bad.

yeah, i was pissed when he went to the jets, esp after they laned brick. they were able to rebuild their oline in one draft...

[SABURZFAN]

yeah, i was pissed when he went to the jets, esp after they laned brick. they were able to rebuild their oline in one draft...


when they traded up with the Bears,i was ready to order the Mangold jersey.

[patmoran2006]

I've been pretty impressed with Dockery thus far.
Ya, he's the best pickup.. I meant value-wise.

Dockery needs to be an elite guard to justify his wages though.. But then again, he is a good player and only been here three games. If nothing else, he's at least a good building block.

[mikemac2001]

Ya, he's the best pickup.. I meant value-wise.

Dockery needs to be an elite guard to justify his wages though.. But then again, he is a good player and only been here three games. If nothing else, he's at least a good building block.


wages r whack tho

Idk in old cap id agree...im frustrated with the team as everyone i just wonder what if we didnt have so many injuries and what if our O Cord would open up the offense....i like lynch and poz and the youth of the team. I hate saying maybe next year but i feel marv has started a good youth movement

Problem were facing is will we have a qb and will the coaching suck

Think D will get better...oline is alright and we need a DT and another LB

[raphael120]

The one huge thing Marv has done is gotten us Marshawn Lynch and our offensive line is now paving the way for him to get 4.0 rushing average when they have absolutely no offense otherwise. When teams are stacking the box knowing we can't get **** done through the air, the oline does a good job of getting the run game going and i could only imagine what our running game will look like once we get our passing game in gear.

[Devin]

when they traded up with the Bears,i was ready to order the Mangold jersey.

Same here I truly thought thats who we were getting.

[Ebenezer]

after 19 games and all these injuries??? no.

[realdealryan]

Victim of the constraints of the organization? Or lack of aptitude for the role? I don't think it matters. It will still taint him to some degree, I think.

For example, the Indiana Pacers have sucked for a while. Player changes, the FIGHT, idiots getting arrested around town, etc. since Reggie left. This guy is the president of the organization, however...
http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/06/27/birdx.jpg

far cry from how I used to remember him....

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/paul_forrester/02/23/cap.moments/t1_bird.jpg

tainted! Well maybe just here in Indiana.

[Ickybaluky]

Through 2 seasons, his free agent pluckings have been a complete and utter joke. He's overpaid for one dimensional rotating players like Kelsay and Schobel that strap the team from improving against the run with $35 million guarenteed to the two.

You may have a point with Kelsay, but Schobel?

Schobel may be one-dimensional, but he is one dimensional in the same manner as guys like Leonard Little, Jason Taylor and Simeon Rice have been in the past. That isn't a terrible dimension to have.

IMO, Schobel would be even better if he had guys up front to help him. If he is playing next to a Tommie Harris or a Warren Sapp-type player, he would be that much more productive. I can't see how the Bills are wrong in what they are paying him, given he has produced at a level that makes him worth it.

[gr8slayer]

Ya, he's the best pickup.. I meant value-wise.

Dockery needs to be an elite guard to justify his wages though.. But then again, he is a good player and only been here three games. If nothing else, he's at least a good building block.
Yeah but there's another three years of film from the Skins! I watched seven of the games from last year and thought he was great. He starts out slow though, it's almost like he has to completely blow a play before he realizes he needs to get going.

[TedMock]

I don't think Marv's legacy will be tainted at all. We're talking about looking years down the road and if he doesn't turn it around as a GM - 10 or 20 years from now he'll still be the great coach who struggled as a GM for a couple of years, but man were those teams he coached good.

Same with Larry Bird for that matter. People don't want him running the team anymore, but he'll always be Larry the Legend. His legacy is in stone. Ditto for MJ and he's done all sorts of stupid things after retiring.

I honestly think Marv had a plan to gut the team and start from scratch. I don't think he anticipated the play to be this bad, but I do think his thought process was to completely cut ties with those not on board regardless of talent and bring in his type of players. Whether or not it will work remains to be seen. We're in year 2 and it's been pretty bad, but we've have some solid draft picks. Yes, there is hindsight and I would have preferred Mangold too, but it's always a gamble. Marv knew they'd struggle, but he knew they'd play hard and learn through it. Hopefully it works out and this team does indeed have the staples in place. My biggest problem with the team is the offensive playcalling. I don't care that Jauron isn't emotional. The best coach in the NFL isn't very emotional either. I do care if Jauron flat-out sucks as a coach. If he doesn't take command of what Fairchild is doing then I have a problem. Things need to change in that regard.

[Jan Reimers]

I strongly disagree that Marv is a terrible GM. He has totally rebuilt our defense through the draft, rebuilt our O line through free agency, and drafted potential offensive stars in Lynch, Edwards and Wright.

The guy has only been on the job for 2 seasons for chrissakes, and this one has been obliterated by injuries.

Could some of you Hot Pockets folks give the guy a chance?

[patmoran2006]

I strongly disagree that Marv is a terrible GM. He has totally rebuilt our defense through the draft, rebuilt our O line through free agency, and drafted potential offensive stars in Lynch, Edwards and Wright.

T
Our defense is one of the worst in the history of the NFL. That's hardly "rebuilding"

[Jan Reimers]

Our defense is one of the worst in the history of the NFL. That's hardly "rebuilding"
Jeez, pat, our D is made up mostly of first and second year guys, and most of them are hurt. We're basically building our D from scratch, through the draft.

Give things a chance for once, will you please?

[patmoran2006]

Jeez, pat, our D is made up mostly of first and second year guys, and most of them are hurt. We're basically building our D from scratch, through the draft.

Give things a chance for once, will you please?
Are you flippin KIDDING ME?
Our defense is also made up of $73 million dollars in money to our defensive ends, $34 of it guarenteed!!!!!

It's also made up of over $3 million per year to FA Defensive tackle Larry Tripplett.

If your defense is going to be young and struggle, why in GOD's NAME would you give a trio of ONE DIMENSIONAL DL that much money???????

[Meathead]

after thinking about it a bit i gotta say yes

i love marv and think he will be successful here but if im wrong and hes not theres no doubt his legacy would be affected should the bills remain a sub-average team much longer

like it or not with all the injuries this year is a pass. marv and co will get another year no matter what happens this season. then the pressure really rachets up next year as they would be starting year three of The Marv age and thats plenty of time to put together a team that can manage to win more games than it loses

if the team next year looks anything like the mikey puke weve seen so far this year then marv will be on an extremely hot seat. the dick will likely be gonesville along with the staff and it might even happen mid season, putting the org in another tailspin for a year at least

now i dont think thats gonna happen. i think they have the pieces now, a few of them broken until next year, that will allow them to add in a few places and then compete for a playoff spot. they were almost there this year if it werent for the sniper in the stands picking off bills starters like karl rove picking off stupid voters - easy pickins

i expect the team will be fine next year and with a last place schedule should easily contend for a wc spot. if not then yeah The Marv becomes simply the marv

[DraftBoy]

to Buffalo Bills Nation? No, never

To other teams fans yes he is hurting his legacy, similar to Paterno and Bowden at their schools. The time has come for both to go (in fact its passed) and fans of other teams are saying it but their fan base doesnt care how bad they get because those guys have earned their place. Levy has earned his place here despite the results.