Minus Super Bowl rings,is Tom Brady a better QB than Jim Kelly?

[blackonyx89]

My brother and I had this debate last night. I said that Kelly was a better QB than Brady. What makes it even more amazing Kelly was a LB converted into a QB. Tom Brady is an overachiever blessed with great talent around him. Kelly didn't have superstars in the USFL and he dominated that league and continued that into his NFL career. Brady is in the right system and if he was anywhere else he wouldn't be as good.

[The King]

Yes.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

Tom Brady is an overachiever blessed with great talent around him.

I'm sorry, that is just not true.


To answer the question, maybe, but if I had a team and the draft choice came down to Brady and Jim, I would take Kelly.

[Pride]

A better QB? No
A better QB when playing the position? Yes

What I mean by this is... Kelly was a leader, he could single handedly put a team on his back and will them to a win. He is a guy I want in a trench beside me when at war.

Brady is a hell of a player... but he's not the man, and leader that Jimbo was.

I also believe that players today and players of 15 years ago cannot be compared due to free agency. Parity in the league also means that there are no more powerhouses because the talent is distributed equally which makes for lesser quality defenses.

[blackonyx89]

A better QB? No
A better QB when playing the position? Yes

What I mean by this is... Kelly was a leader, he could single handedly put a team on his back and will them to a win. He is a guy I want in a trench beside me when at war.

Brady is a hell of a player... but he's not the man, and leader that Jimbo was.



I also believe that players today and players of 15 years ago cannot be compared due to free agency. Parity in the league also means that there are no more powerhouses because the talent is distributed equally which makes for lesser quality defenses.


Very astute observation!!!:limpclap:

[Mitchy moo]

Jimbo is the man.

[Night Train]

Yes

[Meathead]

a tough call

but one thing we know for sure is when things go bad for brady he turns into a whiney pussy. we know the exact opposite for kelly

thus give me my choice and id take jimbo

[THATHURMANATOR]

Brady is better than Kelly.. Come on guys lets be real here!

[Philagape]

Brady easily, and the Super Bowls are why. You can't leave that out, because that's what defines greatness. How on earth can anyone say that a QB with three rings isn't a leader? That's insane. He's better in talent, and he's better in intangibles. It's Brady who made those around him better. Until now, Brady has never had anyone the caliber of Reed and Thomas on his team.

This is why homers are ... homers.

[blackonyx89]

Brady easily, and the Super Bowls are why. You can't leave that out, because that's what defines greatness. How on earth can anyone say that a QB with three rings isn't a leader? That's insane. He's better in talent, and he's better in intangibles. It's Brady who made those around him better. Until now, Brady has never had anyone the caliber of Reed and Thomas on his team.

This is why homers are ... homers.

Probably cheated for those rings. Hmmmmmmmmm........


:bandwagon

[justasportsfan]

Kelly was coach on the field calling the plays. One things for sure, Brady has a better coach than what Kelly had.

[Pride]

One could argue that all of the "greats" from the Bills in the early 90's were directly the affect of Jim Kelly as well!

Thurman Thomas a 2nd round RB
Andre Reed went to Kutztown State
The list goes on and on.

In fact, I believe that Bruce Smith got so many sacks, because teams were forced to play catch up and throw the ball so much in the 3rd and 4th quarters. Sacks come easier when your team is up by 21 points in the 2nd half!

I believe that Kelly made everyone else around him great, even moreso than Brady Did... because, in all honesty... the Bills Defenses from the 90's were NOT that good! Brady is a product of a solid offensive system, and an incredible defensive minded coach.

[Philagape]

Thurman Thomas a 2nd round RB
Andre Reed went to Kutztown State


How is that relevant? Tell me that Thurman and Andre and Bruce weren't great players in their own right. And they were great with Reich too.

Brady won the SB with Antowain Smith as his RB. During their entire SB run, they've very rarely had any offensive player go to the Pro Bowl besides Brady. In the SB against the Panthers, it was him and his clutch drive that won it. He's carried the offense on his back.

[RedEyE]

Jimbo was his own offensive coordinator and called his plays from snap. He had a great head on his shoulders and some serious physical strength. Peyton is much like Kelly in that regards and one could argue that Manning is even better.

Brady is a good QB for his system and makes the right decisions on the field.

I think they are good in their own rights. You can't say you wouldn't want Brady on your team. The guy is a headsy QB that will beat you with the nickle and dime.

[HHURRICANE]

Take our current roster and picture Brady as the QB and than Kelly as the QB.

Do I need to go any further?


Jim Kelly is the man!

[DynaPaul]

Jimbo is definitely better. He got hit a lot more and didn't have to have his coaches cheat to get him the wins. Jimbo's line didn't get to hold all the time. Jimbo was tough. You'd never catch Jimbo whining to the media. Jimbo never knocked up models then dumped them for some other girl. Jimbo was a family man. Jimbo never posed with a goat in a gay man's magazine.

Do I even need to go on?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Take our current roster and picture Brady as the QB and than Kelly as the QB.

Do I need to go any further?


Jim Kelly is the man!
No I think Brady would do better...

[THATHURMANATOR]

Jimbo is definitely better. He got hit a lot more and didn't have to have his coaches cheat to get him the wins. Jimbo's line didn't get to hold all the time. Jimbo was tough. You'd never catch Jimbo whining to the media. Jimbo never knocked up models then dumped them for some other girl. Jimbo was a family man. Jimbo never posed with a goat in a gay man's magazine.

Do I even need to go on?
Are you serious?

Kelly complained all the time about teamates and coaching in the media.

Jimbo was also a notorious hardcore partier. Hardly family man material.

Don't get me wrong Jimbo Kelly is a hero of mine(and has since calmed into a great family guy) be lets not alter the past.

[The last buffalo fan]

How is that relevant? Tell me that Thurman and Andre and Bruce weren't great players in their own right. And they were great with Reich too.

Brady won the SB with Antowain Smith as his RB. During their entire SB run, they've very rarely had any offensive player go to the Pro Bowl besides Brady. In the SB against the Panthers, it was him and his clutch drive that won it. He's carried the offense on his back.

Defense?

[Philagape]

Jimbo is definitely better. He got hit a lot more and didn't have to have his coaches cheat to get him the wins. Jimbo's line didn't get to hold all the time. Jimbo was tough. You'd never catch Jimbo whining to the media. Jimbo never knocked up models then dumped them for some other girl. Jimbo was a family man. Jimbo never posed with a goat in a gay man's magazine.

Do I even need to go on?

If you want to talk about actual quarterbacking, yes.

[Philagape]

Defense?

What about it? Irrelevant.

[Kadiddlehopper]

No contest Jim Kelly, hands down. Brady call his own games?

[Historian]

a tough call

but one thing we know for sure is when things go bad for brady he turns into a whiney pussy. we know the exact opposite for kelly

thus give me my choice and id take jimbo

I agree.

Brady is a homo who whines to the refs ten times more thasn Marino ever did.

Not to mention he's Bush's poster boy.

[Philagape]

No contest Jim Kelly, hands down. Brady call his own games?

Shouldn't results be what matters?

[Philagape]

I agree.

Brady is a homo who whines to the refs ten times more thasn Marino ever did.

Not to mention he's Bush's poster boy.

Kelly was at the 2004 GOP convention :up:

[Mr. Pink]

Jim Kelly vs Tom Brady and most people pick Kelly? Only on a Bills message board.

Jim Kelly was surrounded by talent all over the field. Brady gets interchangeable parts year after year. Even with the interchangeable parts Brady wins games and has huge stats year after year.

There is absolutely no continuity over Brady's tenure at any position really, outside of him. Kelly had Reed and Thomas for years upon years. Arguably without Thomas, Kelly wouldn't have looked as good either.

And if you want to get into true facts...the reason the Bills lost SB XXV was due to Jim Kelly's playcalling. Hand the ball to Thomas more, the Bills win. Kelly controlled the plays and called too many passes, period. Not too mention Kelly starting the bickering Bills era by throwing all his offensive lineman under the bus. Brady doesn't do that to his teammates.

Plus the best overall performance by the team when Kelly was here, Kelly wasn't even on the field for. The 2nd half of the greatest comeback in NFL history.

Take off the rose petalled glasses people. Kelly was a good QB yes, but nowhere near the class of Brady.

[G. Host]

My brother and I had this debate last night. I said that Kelly was a better QB than Brady. What makes it even more amazing Kelly was a LB converted into a QB. Tom Brady is an overachiever blessed with great talent around him. Kelly didn't have superstars in the USFL and he dominated that league and continued that into his NFL career. Brady is in the right system and if he was anywhere else he wouldn't be as good.

I do not think Tom Brady would have made a difference with Bills during Superbowl years, probably not made it all four years, and Jimbo would have won a ring or two playing with the Patriots so no. System is often more important than QB in many ways and the opponent level of Patriots Superbowl year was less having been diluted by multiple free agency years.

If Brady went to another team rather than signing the extension I think he would not be half as good as he is.

A better question would be could some of the Patriots coaching staff could have gotten the Bills a championship ring and I think yes.

[Kadiddlehopper]

Shouldn't results be what matters?Results are a product of the team, which wasn't the question. I'd take JK over TB anyday.

[Philagape]

Results are a product of the team, which wasn't the question. I'd take JK over TB anyday.

I mean how the QB performs. Where he passes the ball, the quality of the pass, frequency of mistakes, pocket presence, moving the chains, etc.

[acehole]

Sorry to say yes.....but Jim Kelly never had the benifit of having the deffenses signals and calls and blitzes piped into his helmut....so screw Tom Brady and I hope he gets whats he deserves....


My brother and I had this debate last night. I said that Kelly was a better QB than Brady. What makes it even more amazing Kelly was a LB converted into a QB. Tom Brady is an overachiever blessed with great talent around him. Kelly didn't have superstars in the USFL and he dominated that league and continued that into his NFL career. Brady is in the right system and if he was anywhere else he wouldn't be as good.

[colin]

jimbo was a great leader and a super talent, but brady is clearly the harder working (as in preparation) more cerebral qb.

they were both qbs for their eras, but i often wonder if kelly was as much of a football nerd as brady if he would have lead us to some championships.

[devour]

it's nice to show loyalty to your QB, but any objective fan will tell you Brady is twice the quarterback that Kelly ever was. Please take of the rose colored people and look at the facts. Look at performances in the playoffs, look at the supporting cast around each. Need I elaborate?

[Historian]

Kelly was the cornerstone of a team that was 2-14 the year before. He threw for 3593 yards after only one week of training camp.

And for his first game, his starting backfield was Greg Bell and Ricky Moore.

I'd like to see Brady do that.

[Mr. Pink]

Kelly was the cornerstone of a team that was 2-14 the year before. He threw for 3593 yards after only one week of training camp.

And for his first game, his starting backfield was Greg Bell and Ricky Moore.

I'd like to see Brady do that.


Ok, Brady is the cornerstone of a team that was 5-11 the year before. He threw for 2843 yards and 18 TDs to 12 INTs after not having any starter reps til week 3.

And for his first season as starter, his starting backfield was Antowain Smith and Marc Edwards.

And he lead the Patriots to a SB championship.

I think Brady did it and then some.

[churchinski]

My brother and I had this debate last night. I said that Kelly was a better QB than Brady. What makes it even more amazing Kelly was a LB converted into a QB. Tom Brady is an overachiever blessed with great talent around him. Kelly didn't have superstars in the USFL and he dominated that league and continued that into his NFL career. Brady is in the right system and if he was anywhere else he wouldn't be as good.

kelly had more talent surrounding him than any QB in recent history

what Bills teams were you watching ?

that must have been a debate between two real football experts LOL



Surrounded by all pros Kelly went 0 for 4

[churchinski]

it's nice to show loyalty to your QB, but any objective fan will tell you Brady is twice the quarterback that Kelly ever was. Please take of the rose colored people and look at the facts. Look at performances in the playoffs, look at the supporting cast around each. Need I elaborate?

some people will go to no ends to prop up their sports hero

I laugh when I hear people put Kelly in a league with Brady, Marino,Manning etc


Kelly was a product of being surrounded by outstanding talent

Reich never had problems running up points surrounded by those players either

[churchinski]

Kelly was coach on the field calling the plays. One things for sure, Brady has a better coach than what Kelly had.



Just what in your mind was Kelly doing to be "a coach on the field" that other QBs do not ?

this is just another flowery catch phrase that an over-the-top fan hears and adopts because he likes the way it sounds when applied to one of his heroes


What was it that Kelly was doing as a "coach on the field" that has you parroting this nonsense?

Can you detail anything for us ?

[churchinski]

A better QB? No
A better QB when playing the position? Yes

What I mean by this is... Kelly was a leader, he could single handedly put a team on his back and will them to a win. He is a guy I want in a trench beside me when at war.

Brady is a hell of a player... but he's not the man, and leader that Jimbo was.

I also believe that players today and players of 15 years ago cannot be compared due to free agency. Parity in the league also means that there are no more powerhouses because the talent is distributed equally which makes for lesser quality defenses.

I think I'm going to throw up after reading this

[churchinski]

Jimbo is definitely better. He got hit a lot more and didn't have to have his coaches cheat to get him the wins. Jimbo's line didn't get to hold all the time. Jimbo was tough. You'd never catch Jimbo whining to the media. Jimbo never knocked up models then dumped them for some other girl. Jimbo was a family man. Jimbo never posed with a goat in a gay man's magazine.


Do I even need to go on?

No you say 'Jimbo' 80 times in one paragraph .

It makes me wonder if you're saying 'Jimbo' in your sleep.

[DynaPaul]

No you say 'Jimbo' 80 times in one paragraph .

It makes me wonder if you're saying 'Jimbo' in your sleep.

Sorry dude but I only said it 7 times. I could type it out 80 times for you if you'd like.

[blackonyx89]

kelly had more talent surrounding him than any QB in recent history

what Bills teams were you watching ?

that must have been a debate between two real football experts LOL



Surrounded by all pros Kelly went 0 for 4

That's why I said not counting rings make the comparison,smart *@!
:geek:

[churchinski]

That's why I said not counting rings make the comparison,smart *@!
:geek:

well unsmart *@! that is the equivalent of saying ...not counting QB skills who is the better QB

lol ...after we erase Brady's successes who is the better QB ?

[churchinski]

Sorry dude but I only said it 7 times. I could type it out 80 times for you if you'd like.

Don't bother I'm not a guy that has nicknames or uses pet nicknames for football players

If you or anyone else ever hears me referring to a Kelly as 'Jimbo' just do me a favor ,take a shotgun and blow f***ing my head off

[SquishDaFish]

Definitly Kelly. But it doesnt take away from Brady. He is a great QB also. Jimbo called his own plays and would carry a team to victory. And never cry when it went bad. Suber bowl titles are won as a TEAM not an individual.

[DynaPaul]

Don't bother I'm not a guy that has nicknames or uses pet nicknames for football players

If you or anyone else ever hears me referring to a Kelly as 'Jimbo' just do me a favor ,take a shotgun and blow f***ing my head off

Ok, I'm holding you to that!

[Mr. Cynical]

Nope. Brady isn't even in the top 10 QB list IMO:

Favre
Elway
Marino
Manning
Montana
Kelly
Bradshaw
Tarkenton
Young
Fouts (maybe...)

Brady is a solid QB and does what he needs to do to win games (which, granted, is what counts) but he isn't in the same special class as the others.

[YardRat]

I think Unitas and Graham deserve to be in any top 10.

[Philagape]

carry a team to victory.


Suber bowl titles are won as a TEAM not an individual.

Which is it? You can't dismiss Brady with the word team and then heap credit for wins on Kelly.

Tell me the Pats win three SBs with Bledsoe. Or the Colts win the SB without Manning.

[Philagape]

If we take away Brady's Super Bowl wins, then we should take away Kelly even getting there, and then where is he?

[blackonyx89]

Nope. Brady isn't even in the top 10 QB list IMO:

Favre
Elway
Marino
Manning
Montana
Kelly
Bradshaw
Tarkenton
Young
Fouts (maybe...)

Brady is a solid QB and does what he needs to do to win games (which, granted, is what counts) but he isn't in the same special class as the others.

When his career is over you wont see his name on this list! He lacks that extra special something. He might have his rings but he doesn't have a special aura like the mentioned above. Big deal!

[blackonyx89]

Nope. Brady isn't even in the top 10 QB list IMO:

Favre
Elway
Marino
Manning
Montana
Kelly
Bradshaw
Tarkenton
Young
Fouts (maybe...)

Brady is a solid QB and does what he needs to do to win games (which, granted, is what counts) but he isn't in the same special class as the others.

Yeah, and it helps when your coach cheats too!

[Historian]

Nope. Brady isn't even in the top 10 QB list IMO:

Favre
Elway
Marino
Manning
Montana
Kelly
Bradshaw
Tarkenton
Young
Fouts (maybe...)

Brady is a solid QB and does what he needs to do to win games (which, granted, is what counts) but he isn't in the same special class as the others.

This is the way I would rank them...

Elway
Favre
Marino
Montana
Kelly
Bradshaw
Griese
Tarkenton
Namath
Staubach
Fouts

[PECKERWOOD]

Brady easily, and the Super Bowls are why. You can't leave that out, because that's what defines greatness. How on earth can anyone say that a QB with three rings isn't a leader? That's insane. He's better in talent, and he's better in intangibles. It's Brady who made those around him better. Until now, Brady has never had anyone the caliber of Reed and Thomas on his team.

This is why homers are ... homers.


Exactly.. Furthermore, look what kinda numbers Tom is putting up with Randy, Wes and Donte. This is the 1st time that he has had so much talent at WR in his career. Even if you were to leave out the previous 3 rings that the guy has it doesn't matter because he will most likely win a 4th one this year.

[PECKERWOOD]

This is the way I would rank them...

Elway
Favre
Marino
Montana
Kelly
Bradshaw
Griese
Tarkenton
Namath
Staubach
Fouts

Montana
Brady
Manning
Elway
Favre
Kelly
Marino
Bradshaw
Aikman
Young

[blackonyx89]

Brady will never get the respect like the above legendary QB's!!!!

[Philagape]

Brady will never get the respect like the above legendary QB's!!!!

Not from Bills homers

[gr8slayer]

I hate to say it but Kelly is not in tier one with Montana, Elway, Manning, Young and Brady, he's in tier two with Aikman and Marino.

[Billz_fan]

Montana is far and away the class of any list IMO. I would take him over anyone.

As far as the thread title, you cant take away things and then compare :laughter:

[PECKERWOOD]

Montana is far and away the class of any list IMO. I would take him over anyone.

As far as the thread title, you cant take away things and then compare :laughter:

Plus, Montana is from Notre Dame so he is still one of my own!

[Mr. Cynical]

I hate to say it but Kelly is not in tier one with Montana, Elway, Manning, Young and Brady, he's in tier two with Aikman and Marino.


Marino is tier two? By what rationale?

[blackonyx89]

Not from Bills homers

I'm not being a homer. The Bills had one of the highest scoring offenses in NFL history. Whatever!

[EDS]

Jimbo is definitely better. He got hit a lot more and didn't have to have his coaches cheat to get him the wins. Jimbo's line didn't get to hold all the time. Jimbo was tough. You'd never catch Jimbo whining to the media. Jimbo never knocked up models then dumped them for some other girl. Jimbo was a family man. Jimbo never posed with a goat in a gay man's magazine.

Do I even need to go on?

Do you really believe Jim Kelly was pure "family man" during his playing career?

[FlyingElvis]

Montana
Brady
Manning
Elway
Favre
Kelly
Marino
Bradshaw
Aikman
Young
I think this is a pretty solid list although it ignores some great QBs before our time, like Unitas, Bart Starr and maybe a couple of others. Marino should probably be above Kelly and I don't know if Aikman belongs in the top 10.

[PromoTheRobot]

This is a stupid question. It's like asking "minus all the people who died, who's a better surgeon?"

PTR

[MikeInRoch]

Not having Brady in your top 10 shows a fundamental lack of football knowledge.

[MikeInRoch]

Marino is tier two? By what rationale?

By the rationale of winning playoffs games. 8-10, including a swan song that had the opposing QB pulled for 'garbage time' before Marino even had a single completion.

[Throne Logic]

I hate to say it but Kelly is not in tier one with Montana, Elway, Manning, Young and Brady, he's in tier two with Aikman and Marino.

I'd say Marino is more of a "Tier 1" and Young a "Tier 2". Marino did more with less. Young was basically handed the reins of a championship caliber team. He was a great QB, but talk about a guy surrounded by talent form the get-go.

Back to the topic:

Jim Kelly is my emtional choice. I, like so many of you, lived and died every Sunday with Kelly and that team. But, logically speaking, Brady is the better QB.

Kelly was a gunslinger. He had the bad to go with the good, much like Favre. Brady is a much more controlled and efficient player.

Yes, Kelly called his own plays, but that was a limited list for him to choose from. That team was so tallented, they only needed a handful of plays. Brady plays in a scheme that is much more complicated than that which Marchibroda setup for Kelly.

Brady's defining year was last season (2006). He didn't carry them to the playoffs, but he had what was arguably the least talented group of WR's in the league and made that unit look pretty good. It was a farce that he missed the probowl in favor of Vince Young.

The start of 2007 just amplifies Brady's accomplishments. He's now carrying his own version of "Rice and Owens", "Lofton and Reed", and "Dupor and Clayton". The result is 15 TD's over 5 games. Brady is on pace to be one of the best ever to play the position.

Sorry Bills fans, I feel your pain. However the arguement is clear in my mind.

[FlyingElvis]

The result is 15 TD's over 5 games.

Actually 16. :)

But your comments are spot on. I never really thought of it, but you are right in comparing Kelly with Favre.

As far as calling plays, that's just not how it's done in today's NFL. But Brady along with Manning does more at the line of scrimmage than any QB.

Jim Kelly was a great HoF QB, but you don't need to knock Brady to elevate how good Kelly was.