**Official Buffalo Bills Future Thread**

[Devin]

This isnt a "for or against" type thing its more of a prediction thread. Its meant to be taken serious so please dont make me delete posts.

This isnt about agreeing or disagreeing about a move, or if you will forever hate the nfl if they leave......etc.

Its about serious, realistic predictions. It isnt meant to scare anyone, but the sad reality is this problem, and it is a problem, is one that we aree going to have to face as fans very soon.

Serious responses only, I dont want to have to neg anyone into oblivion. Keep it civil.

What we know:

1. Ralph is going on what 89? So obviously somewhere in the very likely timeframe of 1 to 6 seasons I would say is the window we are looking at.

2. Family = no team. So the team will obviously be sold to what is very likely the highest bidder.

3. The Buffalo market while sustainable, is basically the equivalent of treading water.

4. The city/county....etc at least without state help cant afford a new stadium.

5. The NFL no longer allows cities/group ownerships ala Green bay.

I am sure we know more BUT GET OFF MY BACK, I dont remember or care to follow up on the bazillion threads about it here. Ill add them as valid points are made.

PUT ASIDE PERSONAL WISHES AND BIAS AND POST WHAT YOU THINK IS THE MOST LIKELY SCENARIO IN YOUR MIND.


My Prediction:

Personally I think a new owner buys the team with promises to keep the team in Buffalo and give it the good fight. After a year or two said owner changes thier mind and produces plenty of proof on financial losses compared to others....etc.

There is a year long fight to keep the team here....."we need small market teams....blah blah blah". Jim Kelly and all the usual local celebs chip in and try and help. The state of NY probably makes a weak attempt "Buffalo needs this team.....etc and so forth".......Goodell puts in his two cents. All the usual media motions/campaigns are gone through....and after all that when it comes down to the almighty ownership vote it gets passed unanimously....or close anyway.

The team moves to one of the obvious locations a season later (Toronto, LA....etc).

While sad, I guess im with the group who simply dont believe the numbers are there. And quite honestly we are all a little bias of course but how on earth do you sell this team to some billionaire somewhere and convince him not to go to a cash cow like LA who will build a brand spanking new state-of-the-art stadium for him. As has been said a million times at the end of the day as sad as it is its simple economics. The NFL isnt a sport, its a business. Any player, any coach, any owner most of all will tell you that.

But at the end of the day if Modell can move the freakin Browns I simply dont believe we have the firepower any way around to keep the Bills here.

Thoughts?

[YardRat]

I just watched the sports on the news, and I haven't read the rest of the boards yet but I'm sure it's been posted already...With the team looking to put at least one regular season game in Toronto, and possibly more, it certainly appears as if management is at least throwing the proverbial trial balloon up to gauge the popularity of the NFL in Canada.

One of the reasons stated regarded the empty luxury suites that haven't been sold, and that doesn't bode well for the ability of the community to be able to support the franchise.

I think it's more likely the team is relocated after a short trial period that you mentioned, unless the state, county, and local governments really give away the keys to the kingdom to try and keep the team in Buffalo. Even then, a new owner with very deep pockets and a true commitment to WNY would have to be part of the equation, and I just don't see anybody like that stepping up.

[Mitchy moo]

RW secures his legacy, sells the team to a Tom G. lead group and the state gives money to offset the inheritance tax to keep the Bills in NY.

[G. Host]

I hate :madmad:"**Official**" threads. :blowup: Too Skooby-like.

Ralph Just turned 89 today.

I think Jim Kelly and maybe a few others will attempt to become minor owners stressing how it will help with fans, press, etc.

New owner will get a new name and rename the Fieldhouse after Ralph. Probably a Toronto or Ontario company looking to expand in US ("Sundowner Stadium" ;) ) Company will go heavy into marketing and replace joke of a ticket office. Large ticket price increase and more talk of seat licenses for 3-5 years/

I think the NFL current contract revenue-sharing agreement will not last and Big 5 will prevent the new owner from getting any share of revenue from evenue-sharing agreement; after purchase the owner will take them to court and lose in a few years. By then there will be a NEW agreement because of other teams hurt by agreement and more political press.

NYS will talk about helping but money will never come through.
NYS is never reliable to WNY.

Bills will increase in value but no where near what an owner can make elsewhere but will keep trying until they get a St Lous type sweatheart deal they would be idiotic to pass up. After negotiating with NYS fails after a pitiful stadium revamp deal is offered they take the deal.

Buffalo gets to keep the name and eventually a new minor league of NFL is formed with Buffalo Bills as a member.

[Devin]

Even then, a new owner with very deep pockets and a true commitment to WNY would have to be part of the equation, and I just don't see anybody like that stepping up.

Agreed. And that to me is one of the longest shots, you have to hope that an owner from WNY steps up. And even then your options are relativley limited. When they do you have to hope that they are SO committed they decide they dont need any more wealth and wish not to move to one of the huge markets available.

Whats more you are talking about what 750-850 mil if not more? PLuse sorting out some sort of stadium deal very likely. Tall order.

[jamze132]

I like to believe that when Ralph kicks the bucket, Tommy G, Jimmy K, and others buy the team and keep it in Buffalo as well as field a winning team.

Another part of me says that the guys listed above can't afford to do that and some other rich guy does with the intention, that everyone is aware of, to move the team so he can be even richer while destroying an entire region.

Does the Bass Pro Shops guy ahve enough money to buy the Bills? :fishy:

[Hamilton Billsfan]

Your scenario above is indeed likely, however.............

I still Billieve most of the storm clouds will dissipate under a new management,say with someone like Bill Cowher at the helm and that the team starts winning again.

[Devin]

I guess in my mind it all comes down to the almighty dollar, no matter how much we wish otherwise.

I just think NFL ownership is no longer a millionaires game, you literally have to be a Billionaire nowadays. Especially to stay competitive and all.

Even bringing in a coach like cowher I mean thats gonna cost what? 5-10 mil a year, he will certainly demand Belicheck money. As well he should.

I just dont see that kind of firepower in Buffalo. If Tom G sold the Sabres and brought in another big gun from the area perhaps, but if this goes up for bids........simply to many wealthier people in north america who could easily outbid them.

Jim Kelly is a face, nothing more. He doesnt have the financial power to do pretty much anything as far as a franchise goes.

[Mr. Pink]

My honest opinion? It's a very unfortunate outlook.

I agree with Yardrat to an extent. I do believe putting a game up in toronto is to gauge the market and see how well it will do. One home game up there is gonna be a huge success. Even playing preseason games in Tokyo worked out. It's a novely act, one game doesn't foresee a trend nor the projection of 10 games at the same site per year.

Ultimately I believe Ralphie's ego doesn't allow him to sell the team, he probably already has a private deal for when he passes on where the team goes, or if he doesn't it's in the works. He's most likely agreed to an outside buyer and he's "fighting" to save face. The whole the collective bargaining agreement is a sham, etc....Meanwhile he's putting false things out that this franchise can't survive here. He's still turning a profit year after year from this team, while it's not the same profit that Dallas or Washington is getting, it's still a profit.

I honestly believe that Ralph doesn't shell out the bonuses and spend to the cap to maximize his profit margin out of jealousy of the Joneses, Krafts, Snyders. But then he won't sell naming rights to the stadium so he can get a few extra dollars. It's maddening how much he makes no sense at times. A million dollars to him a year may mean nothing but it's still more income that he could and should be getting.

I think everything we've seen so far is to brace the public for the inevitable move. I just don't think there will be any trial period. Once the new ownership takes over they'll buy out the lease to the stadium, city, county, whatever it is. It will probably be included in the sale price of the franchise. And I honestly believe they end up in either LA or LV, which will force some re-ordering of divisions.

I'm hopeful this isn't the case and there is still hope now it stays, but it doesn't seem economically viable for another buyer to keep this team here if he can maximize his profits elsewhere.

[Devin]

My honest opinion? It's a very unfortunate outlook.

I agree with Yardrat to an extent. I do believe putting a game up in toronto is to gauge the market and see how well it will do. One home game up there is gonna be a huge success. Even playing preseason games in Tokyo worked out. It's a novely act, one game doesn't foresee a trend nor the projection of 10 games at the same site per year.

Ultimately I believe Ralphie's ego doesn't allow him to sell the team, he probably already has a private deal for when he passes on where the team goes, or if he doesn't it's in the works. He's most likely agreed to an outside buyer and he's "fighting" to save face. The whole the collective bargaining agreement is a sham, etc....Meanwhile he's putting false things out that this franchise can't survive here. He's still turning a profit year after year from this team, while it's not the same profit that Dallas or Washington is getting, it's still a profit.

I honestly believe that Ralph doesn't shell out the bonuses and spend to the cap to maximize his profit margin out of jealousy of the Joneses, Krafts, Snyders. But then he won't sell naming rights to the stadium so he can get a few extra dollars. It's maddening how much he makes no sense at times. A million dollars to him a year may mean nothing but it's still more income that he could and should be getting.

I think everything we've seen so far is to brace the public for the inevitable move. I just don't think there will be any trial period. Once the new ownership takes over they'll buy out the lease to the stadium, city, county, whatever it is. It will probably be included in the sale price of the franchise. And I honestly believe they end up in either LA or LV, which will force some re-ordering of divisions.

I'm hopeful this isn't the case and there is still hope now it stays, but it doesn't seem economically viable for another buyer to keep this team here if he can maximize his profits elsewhere.

Agree almost 100%.

[Night Train]

I can't argue with your thinking. Excellent post.

I went to my 1st game over 40 years ago at Jefferson and Best, when star players made $20,000 a year, envious of Joe Namath and his mind boggling 100K salary ! These players would always work 2nd jobs during the off-season. My, how times have changed.

The current NFL looks at slugs like us as 2nd tier priorities, behind the corporate dollar. ( something Buffalo has little of ) The Bills have hit their price ceiling and it may equal a slow death of this NFL team, which may last a few more years, unless a local economic miracle occurs.

I just can't see Buffalo, Jacksonville, Oakland and maybe a couple others surviving in a League who believes $100 end zone tickets isn't out of line. This is why in a thread last spring, I predicted the NFL would eventually contract several teams and shrink down to 24-26 teams. Only the rich can afford this ride and our market/population is too small to justify this insanity. Pro sports have become far too greedy.

I also predicted another AFL league will eventually form, with plenty of empty stadiums and a ready fanbase available, with sane economics.

And I'd be in line day 1 for seasons. If not, I'd fall back on UB season tickets and still enjoy life.

[jamze132]

I don't like the idea of Buffalo having a "minor league" team named the Buffalo Bills. Although, that is essentially what we are right now in our current state. How sad.

[Johnny Bugmenot]

OK, I'll take a stab at this.

* Ralph Wilson dies.
* Government seizes the property to pay estate tax and in an attempt to keep the franchise in Buffalo.
* NFL threatens government over ownership policy. Government sues and loses. Fans enter uproar.
* Two bidding factions develop: one from Toronto, one from Los Angeles. Las Vegas will try but the NFL will refuse any and all bids for that city due to their gambling reputation.
* Los Angeles wins out. Team moves to L.A. and becomes the Los Angeles Condors.
* CFL offers the region a franchise, to be called the Fort Erie Firebirds (named Fort Erie so as to remain Canadian).

That's just my prediction.

Also, something to take note: the Bills just this year put a radio affiliate (Fan 590 CJCL) in Toronto for the first time. Something to chew on...

[Devin]

OK, I'll take a stab at this.

* Ralph Wilson dies.
* Government seizes the property to pay estate tax and in an attempt to keep the franchise in Buffalo.
* NFL threatens government over ownership policy. Government sues and loses. Fans enter uproar.
* Two bidding factions develop: one from Toronto, one from Los Angeles. Las Vegas will try but the NFL will refuse any and all bids for that city due to their gambling reputation.
* Los Angeles wins out. Team moves to L.A. and becomes the Los Angeles Condors.
* CFL offers the region a franchise, to be called the Fort Erie Firebirds (named Fort Erie so as to remain Canadian).

That's just my prediction.

Also, something to take note: the Bills just this year put a radio affiliate (Fan 590 CJCL) in Toronto for the first time. Something to chew on...

Not bad.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Why even have this thread? If I were to somehow find out they would be here 5 more years then leave I would stop supporting them this moment. The hope I have that they will stay is the only thing that keeps me going at this point.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Here is my prediction.

Ralph dies after being an IDIOT who refused to even try to sell the team to a local owner.

Some ******* from Toronto anties up the money and they move to Toronto.

During the move to Toronto everyone and everything having to do with the traitor franchise explodes in a fire ball.

While still distraught about losing his beloved Bills Thurm rejoices in the death and destruction of the traitor franchise!

[THATHURMANATOR]

A disclaimer should be made to my prediction. No players or coaches are injured in the fireball explosion. Just the greedy ******* bastards involved in stealing the Bills from us.

[Michael82]

I think that before we lose this team for good, we are going to agree to share 2 home games a year with Toronto. This will also help get more corporate sponsors and companies to buy suites inside the stadium, which will finally be renamed so they can get a nice chunk of money. By tapping into the Toronto market now, the Bills may have found a way to expand the team and develop more fans, plus more money to help support the team. What is happening right now may actually be what is needed to save the team here.

Oh and Devin, you should also be worried about your Saints. They are definitely not safe anymore in this new rich, NFL. :::

[Devin]

I think that before we lose this team for good, we are going to agree to share 2 home games a year with Toronto. This will also help get more corporate sponsors and companies to buy suites inside the stadium, which will finally be renamed so they can get a nice chunk of money. By tapping into the Toronto market now, the Bills may have found a way to expand the team and develop more fans, plus more money to help support the team. What is happening right now may actually be what is needed to save the team here.

Oh and Devin, you should also be worried about your Saints. They are definitely not safe anymore in this new rich, NFL. :::

My Saints just signed a new 4 year deal here and are currently looking for land to build a new stadium.

[Wys Guy]

Here is my prediction.

Ralph dies after being an IDIOT who refused to even try to sell the team to a local owner.

Some ******* from Toronto anties up the money and they move to Toronto.

During the move to Toronto everyone and everything having to do with the traitor franchise explodes in a fire ball.

While still distraught about losing his beloved Bills Thurm rejoices in the death and destruction of the traitor franchise!

LOL

Pretty funny Thurm!!

[YardRat]

What about the LaBatts people? They just moved their North American Headquarters into Buffalo.

One or two games in Toronto, LaBatts Blue Stadium, still the Buffalo Bills...I could live with that.

[Wys Guy]

Personally I think a new owner buys the team with promises to keep the team in Buffalo and give it the good fight. After a year or two said owner changes thier mind and produces plenty of proof on financial losses compared to others....etc.

A lot of good and accurate thoughts in here. Interestingly.

To me Devin, the portion of your initial thread-starting statement above sums it all up.

The NFL is a business as you've all acknowledged here. While it would be "warm & fuzzy" to think that the team will stay in Buffalo, the way that you worded the above is telling to me;

"give it a good fight."

What kind of businessman or investor group wants to invest from the get-go in something that's gonna be a financial fight? No one.

It would be a fight. It is a fight.

The team would do fine in Toronto. There's so many more people and so much more money there that it's not even comparable. The key, and something that's an ongoing struggle in Buffalo, would be the luxury/premium seating. That wouldn't be an issue, or nearly the issue, in Toronto.

Also, just like Canadians coming to Bills games, some Americans and Buffalonians would also continue to go to games in Toronto. Canadians would be all over having their first NFL team.

Think about it, if any of you were starting a business, why on earth would you pick a location or business in which it was going to be a struggle right from the get-go when it didn't have to be?

You're all thinking like fans and Buffalonians, or perhaps as WNY-ers to an extent, but not as investors and businessmen.

Respectfully.

[Devin]

A lot of good and accurate thoughts in here. Interestingly.

To me Devin, the portion of your initial thread-starting statement above sums it all up.

The NFL is a business as you've all acknowledged here. While it would be "warm & fuzzy" to think that the team will stay in Buffalo, the way that you worded the above is telling to me;

"give it a good fight."

What kind of businessman or investor group wants to invest from the get-go in something that's gonna be a financial fight? No one.

It would be a fight. It is a fight.

The team would do fine in Toronto. There's so many more people and so much more money there that it's not even comparable. The key, and something that's an ongoing struggle in Buffalo, would be the luxury/premium seating. That wouldn't be an issue, or nearly the issue, in Toronto.

Also, just like Canadians coming to Bills games, some Americans and Buffalonians would also continue to go to games in Toronto. Canadians would be all over having their first NFL team.

Think about it, if any of you were starting a business, why on earth would you pick a location or business in which it was going to be a struggle right from the get-go when it didn't have to be?

You're all thinking like fans and Buffalonians, or perhaps as WNY-ers to an extent, but not as investors and businessmen.

Respectfully.

I didnt think about it that way, but thats probably pretty close. Well said. :up:

[Wys Guy]

I didnt think about it that way, but thats probably pretty close. Well said. :up:

Thanks. What I said makes even more sense for an investor group that's not from the region, eh. NPI.

[Nighthawk]

Although I believe that Buffalo could and should survive, there is too much negativity around this area that is killing WNY. Do most of you know that Cleveland has one of the worst economies right now??? However, nothing is ever said about their ability to keep the Browns. Why aren't the luxury suites sold??? Well, it could be that this loser owner refuses to put a serious competitive team on the field. I hear all the arguments, but I just don't believe this current ownership has done a very good job of maximizing this teams regional potential.

One last example of other cities who aren't better off than Buffalo, but you never hear anything about it are Pittsburgh, Jacksonville (who actually cover seats up to get sellouts) and New Orleans. Please get over this crap about how bad Buffalo is and realize the troubles with the franchise can be traced back to it's owner...Ralph Wilson.

[DraftBoy]

Ralph will sell the team before he dies

To whom? Likely a Toronto Based Investment Group, but maybe a WNY investor steps up like Jacobs, or an out of towner like Cuban

Why? I think Goodell is going to press him to not have a messy legal battle over the team when he dies as to where its going to go

I dont know enough to really speculate any futher but I think most of the posts so far have been very good.

[Wys Guy]

Although I believe that Buffalo could and should survive, there is too much negativity around this area that is killing WNY. Do most of you know that Cleveland has one of the worst economies right now??? However, nothing is ever said about their ability to keep the Browns. Why aren't the luxury suites sold??? Well, it could be that this loser owner refuses to put a serious competitive team on the field. I hear all the arguments, but I just don't believe this current ownership has done a very good job of maximizing this teams regional potential.

One last example of other cities who aren't better off than Buffalo, but you never hear anything about it are Pittsburgh, Jacksonville (who actually cover seats up to get sellouts) and New Orleans. Please get over this crap about how bad Buffalo is and realize the troubles with the franchise can be traced back to it's owner...Ralph Wilson.

No question, Buffalo's not the only bad economy or struggling area in the nation. But think about the places you just listed even.

Pittsburgh has a much nicer downtown area than Buffalo does and in general is not nearly as struggling economically as you suggest.

New Orleans is struggling, but that city's a politician's love puppy. There's also the famous French Quarter and an ocean, or Gulf perhaps.

Jacksonville's right on the ocean too and in a state where much more is going on economically.

I can't speak to Cleveland since I don't know that much about it although yes, it is also struggling financially. But Cleveland is also a bigger city than Buffalo. So that may fall into the "smaller of two less capable cities" kind of thing.

Either way, those from Buffalo or that know the region well think well of it. But let's face it, if we were to poll 1,000 people nationwide randomly as to where they'd rather go for a weekend, and the choices were:

A. Jacksonville
B. Pittsburgh
C. New Orleans
D. Cleveland
E. Buffalo

I'm pretty sure that very few would say Buffalo. For me I might choose Jax or Pittsburgh first, but definitely not Cleveland or NO. But I'm biased.

Since perceptions impact economies, that's just the way it is.

As a state however, NY's economy is the worst of the batch. It's also by far the most socialized one.

[Devin]

One last example of other cities who aren't better off than Buffalo, but you never hear anything about it are Pittsburgh, Jacksonville (who actually cover seats up to get sellouts) and New Orleans. Please get over this crap about how bad Buffalo is and realize the troubles with the franchise can be traced back to it's owner...Ralph Wilson.

New Orleans is still recovering from the storm and even at 1-4 its almost impossible to get tickets to a game here. Benson and his staff have always done a masterful job marketing, course it also helps that Benson has absolutley no problem shelling out 50-60 mil deals all over the place.

Pittsburgh has a new stadium and won the superbowl two years ago. Slight difference.

While I dont necessarily disagree about most your points, and I do agree Ralph's stubborn ways have hurt more then help, however you combine that with buffalo's economy.....which is firmly lodged in the toilet......and you have a recipe for disaster. One of which no sane business man is going to step into.

[Wys Guy]

Ralph will sell the team before he dies

To whom? Likely a Toronto Based Investment Group, but maybe a WNY investor steps up like Jacobs, or an out of towner like Cuban

Why? I think Goodell is going to press him to not have a messy legal battle over the team when he dies as to where its going to go

I dont know enough to really speculate any futher but I think most of the posts so far have been very good.

I would agree with you about selling the team. I also don't think that his family really wants to be involved and that he will seek to keep them out of it as much as possible.

Like someone already said, this Toronto game thing is just a trial balloon. Plans have likely been made for some time now, even if Wilson doesn't know about it, to try to get a team in Toronto.

Even the league knows that all they have to do is to wait out an 89-year old who's on the clock.

But the warnings have all gone up. Goodell's words are very carefully crafted regarding the Bills remaining in Buffalo. This preseason and RS game thing in Toronto to me was the icing on the cake although some won't see that yet. Wilson seems to be distancing himself from the Buffalo population to some extent.

Deals are often made behind closed doors, that's just a fact of business. That happens at varying levels. It's quite possible that a core group of owners have already more or less bespoken to influence the team's sale to a group that would move it to Toronto and Wilson may not even be aware of it. He doesn't need to be. The other owners will have more influence over where the team goes when he's no longer here than he does now.

The rest is just common sense business stuff. Why would someone buy a struggling restaurant in a poor location rather than one in a booming location where there is presently nothing like it where it's all but guranteed to succeed.

[Wys Guy]

.....which is firmly lodged in the toilet......

LOL

Sounds like the result of a night of good wing eating!

[raphael120]

I can't believe this is actually friggin happening. This kind of talk. Ugh. Its like coming to the realization that yeah, at some point, we're all going to die and no one lives forever. You dont stress about it until youre close to death and then you start freakin about it.

Ugh.

[Wys Guy]

I can't believe this is actually friggin happening. This kind of talk. Ugh. Its like coming to the realization that yeah, at some point, we're all going to die and no one lives forever. You dont stress about it until youre close to death and then you start freakin about it.

Ugh.

I think some of us knew it was coming. For me it's somewhat of a weight that's been lifted. I now feel free to just watch football generally speaking and some much better games for the love of the game.

[Bone]

Is there any actual serious buyers in the Western New York/ Buffalo area that could possibly keep this team here in buffalo.

If the has Buffalo Bills as there name and keep the logo Im cool with everything else.

[Devin]

I think if there were buyers in WNY it would have to be a group. And even then as has been stated how is it you convince them to stay here?

[Michael82]

I think if there were buyers in WNY it would have to be a group. And even then as has been stated how is it you convince them to stay here?
That's what I don't understand. As much as people say about how broke Western NY is, we do have a few people with a lot of money here. Hell, Tom Golisano is worth at least a couple Billion dollars. Then we have Bob Rich, Jeremy Jacobs (he has a lot of money), and of course even though they don't seem really interested.... Danny Wegman.

[Wys Guy]

That's what I don't understand. As much as people say about how broke Western NY is, we do have a few people with a lot of money here. Hell, Tom Golisano is worth at least a couple Billion dollars. Then we have Bob Rich, Jeremy Jacobs (he has a lot of money), and of course even though they don't seem really interested.... Danny Wegman.

"A lot of money" means different things to different people. Danny Wegman probably has millions, perhaps even tens of millions. We're talking close to a Billion dollars here. You don't just finance that by putting up your summer home as collateral.

Still, you fail to understand the core of why anyone would buy an NFL team, to make money.

Let's put it this way Mike, suppose you can open and ice cream stand and barely make enough money to stay in Rochester and barely eke by and have to keep your heat turned down low in the winters sometimes, and budget, and all kinds of other belt-tightening things from time to time, or with the same money you could move somewhere else and open the first of what promises to be a burgeoning chain of ice cream shops, never have to worry about profits, customers, etc., drive nice cars, buy a really nice much larger home, take some serious vacations, etc.

Which would you, as a businessman, choose?

That's the point here. You guys are stuck in how someone from Buffalo or Rochester, or a bunch of people, may mortgage their futures to struggle with an NFL franchise in a location that it's always struggled in during the modern era. On top of that taxes in NYS are the highest in the country for states, and people in your core demographic are leaving the market that you would build in.

I'm not sure that some of you realize this, but NY State is, I think, the only state in the nation that has a net loss of population from year-to-year now.

It just ain't happening unless you can not only find someone with the money, but also someone stupid enough to not care about tens of millions of dollars. People that would buy an NFL team just don't think like that.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but when money's involved you'd be surprised at how fast people throw their sentiments under the bus. Hell, sometimes they even throw their integrity and priniciples under the bus too.

[Mr. Cynical]

If they become a winner like the Pats, they will stay put.

If they continue to suck, they won't.

[Michael82]

If they become a winner like the Pats, they will stay put.

If they continue to suck, they won't.
That right there is the key. Small market or not, they need to win to make money. If they can start doing that, I see the team staying here and being successful. Kinda like the Patriots...before they were a winning team, they were close to moving and hardly ever sold out the place. Now that they are always winning, the place is sold out with a waiting list and they are making a ton of money! Even while playing second fiddle to the Red Sox.

[shelby]

i respectfully disagree with Wys.
i'm from Buffalo, and i enjoy returning to Buffalo for a weekend, especially if i can go to a Bills game. My grandfather is buried up there, too, which is another good reason to make the trip.
Living in Florida, i have always been amazed at how many people here are from WNY. The last Bills Backers bar i went to had about 120 of them. And the majority of them travel up to Buffalo for a game at least once a year.
It's a vacation, it's returning to your roots, and enjoying your favorite team. And there are a lot of us who are willing to spend our money and time to do that.
Of course, i prefer to go in September when it's still warm...;)

[Wys Guy]

That right there is the key. Small market or not, they need to win to make money. If they can start doing that, I see the team staying here and being successful. Kinda like the Patriots...before they were a winning team, they were close to moving and hardly ever sold out the place. Now that they are always winning, the place is sold out with a waiting list and they are making a ton of money! Even while playing second fiddle to the Red Sox.
No, sorry, but winning has nothing to do with it. You're merely fooling yourself.

Even so, if this team's sticking around has to do with winning, then good luck there anyway. It's mostly about TV revenues and secondly luxury/premium seating. If those figures are good, then the team can be 0-16.

To your point I suppose, winning might assist in selling premium seating, but the size of the TV market is the size of the TV market, and in Buffalo, particularly among the primary marketing demographic, 18-35 year olds, it's shrinking.

[Wys Guy]

i respectfully disagree with Wys.
i'm from Buffalo, and i enjoy returning to Buffalo for a weekend, especially if i can go to a Bills game. My grandfather is buried up there, too, which is another good reason to make the trip.
Living in Florida, i have always been amazed at how many people here are from WNY. The last Bills Backers bar i went to had about 120 of them. And the majority of them travel up to Buffalo for a game at least once a year.
It's a vacation, it's returning to your roots, and enjoying your favorite team. And there are a lot of us who are willing to spend our money and time to do that.
Of course, i prefer to go in September when it's still warm...;)

Actually, you agree with me Shelby. Youre grandfather is buried there and you are from there.

Most people that would go to NFL games, for the appeal of a city, do not have those two personal things as personal things. Precisely my point. I really enjoy going up there too.

But for the average person that has no ties, why would they go to Buffalo? Sure, there's Niagara Falls. Toronto too. Who doesn't want to visit those two places if given an opportunity. But then that knocks the ball on my point out of the park.

Toronto is a much more appealing place for an NFL team generally speaking, has far more money as Canada's financial center, has the CN Tower and other notable attractions, and has many, many more offerings as a larger city including a far more varied slate of cultural offerings. "The Anchor Bar" just doesn't compare.

Attending NFL football games is more and more becoming a game for the wealthy to attend. Relatively speaking there are a limited number of games and obviously a limited number of tickets to each game.

Anyway, my point was that if you polled 1,000 average Americans, hardly anyone relatively speaking, barring ties such as yours to the region, would choose Buffalo over those other cities. I'd even bet that if you asked many of the people right here that are from Buffalo that no longer go there, if they'd rather go to Jacksonville, FL or Buffalo, NY for a weekend all other things being equal, a high percentage would say Jax.

[Wys Guy]

You guys are also missing the point on the economy of a region. NFL owners, and other ML sports owners, always soak the public at large for the financing on their stadiums. They pull this off by suggesting that having a team in the region is good for the economy to the extent that what they are able to steal from your wallet as the taxpayer, that you'll see more than that in returns from taxes generated going the other way. If true, then why do they always get bonds that tag the public with the interest. If it's such a winning proposition in a net sense, then why do they need public financing courtesy of the taxpayer even if those taxpayers couldn't care less about that team.

NYS, particularly Erie County or any other county in the region, simply doesn't have the money to offer such a team. The city of Buffalo surely doesn't. How much more in taxes to you NYers want to pay.

BTW, it's been proven that that sales pitch is bogus. The sole beneficiary of such deals is the business/sports team owner and perhaps some politicians along the way that got greased.

[mybills]

This is supposed to be the NFL. Not the CFL. I'd rather have them return to being an AFL, than an IFL which is what they're turning into by forcing teams to play out of this NATION. :usa:

[Michael82]

It's kinda funny that the ones who speak the most doom and gloom in this thread are the ones who cut and ran years ago, because they didn't want to stay in Western NY anymore. These people don't realize that Western NY is not as bad as people make it out to be. Hell, the people sell out a ****ing 73,000 seat stadium and there is 15,000 people on the Sabres season ticket list. Those tickets are not cheap either. :shakeno: That's pretty damn good, especially when you consider that the ticket price is closer to the average NFL ticket price and the parking is getting up there, yet people continue to go. There is money in this area! There are also a couple billioniares in this area or from this area too. There is also a lot of untapped marketing potential that Ralph doesn't use. And he's also getting with the Toronto region just like he did with the Rochester region and the Syracuse region to branch out and gain more support for the BUFFALO Bills! If he can offer 1 or 2 games a year to Toronto and gain more Toronto/Canadian fans that are willing to come to Buffalo for the other 8 or 9 games, then that should help with the luxury boxes and the sponsors. That can help increase the money that the owner makes and also help keep the team in Buffalo a little longer. Also, the thing that you out of towners are not thinking about is that Buffalo is VERY connected with their team and not just in Western NY, but all over the country. Hell, they have one of the bigger backers club in the league. Their are Bills fans all over the place and we will not sit by while they take our team from us. We will fight and personally, I'm sick to death of this talk. I don't understand why you people have to constantly bring it up. It's not happening right now and we don't need to even think about it at the moment. Ralph is still alive and kicking. Hell, he might even be working on a way to help keep the team here in the long run. This Toronto thing may work. You never know.

[THATHURMANATOR]

It's kinda funny that the ones who speak the most doom and gloom in this thread are the ones who cut and ran years ago, because they didn't want to stay in Western NY anymore. These people don't realize that Western NY is not as bad as people make it out to be. Hell, the people sell out a ****ing 73,000 seat stadium and there is 15,000 people on the Sabres season ticket list. Those tickets are not cheap either. :shakeno: That's pretty damn good, especially when you consider that the ticket price is closer to the average NFL ticket price and the parking is getting up there, yet people continue to go. There is money in this area! There are also a couple billioniares in this area or from this area too. There is also a lot of untapped marketing potential that Ralph doesn't use. And he's also getting with the Toronto region just like he did with the Rochester region and the Syracuse region to branch out and gain more support for the BUFFALO Bills! If he can offer 1 or 2 games a year to Toronto and gain more Toronto/Canadian fans that are willing to come to Buffalo for the other 8 or 9 games, then that should help with the luxury boxes and the sponsors. That can help increase the money that the owner makes and also help keep the team in Buffalo a little longer. Also, the thing that you out of towners are not thinking about is that Buffalo is VERY connected with their team and not just in Western NY, but all over the country. Hell, they have one of the bigger backers club in the league. Their are Bills fans all over the place and we will not sit by while they take our team from us. We will fight and personally, I'm sick to death of this talk. I don't understand why you people have to constantly bring it up. It's not happening right now and we don't need to even think about it at the moment. Ralph is still alive and kicking. Hell, he might even be working on a way to help keep the team here in the long run. This Toronto thing may work. You never know.
A ****ING MEN MIKEY!!! :bf1:

[Devin]

It's kinda funny that the ones who speak the most doom and gloom in this thread are the ones who cut and ran years ago, because they didn't want to stay in Western NY anymore. These people don't realize that Western NY is not as bad as people make it out to be. Hell, the people sell out a ****ing 73,000 seat stadium and there is 15,000 people on the Sabres season ticket list. Those tickets are not cheap either. :shakeno: That's pretty damn good, especially when you consider that the ticket price is closer to the average NFL ticket price and the parking is getting up there, yet people continue to go. There is money in this area! There are also a couple billioniares in this area or from this area too. There is also a lot of untapped marketing potential that Ralph doesn't use. And he's also getting with the Toronto region just like he did with the Rochester region and the Syracuse region to branch out and gain more support for the BUFFALO Bills! If he can offer 1 or 2 games a year to Toronto and gain more Toronto/Canadian fans that are willing to come to Buffalo for the other 8 or 9 games, then that should help with the luxury boxes and the sponsors. That can help increase the money that the owner makes and also help keep the team in Buffalo a little longer. Also, the thing that you out of towners are not thinking about is that Buffalo is VERY connected with their team and not just in Western NY, but all over the country. Hell, they have one of the bigger backers club in the league. Their are Bills fans all over the place and we will not sit by while they take our team from us. We will fight and personally, I'm sick to death of this talk. I don't understand why you people have to constantly bring it up. It's not happening right now and we don't need to even think about it at the moment. Ralph is still alive and kicking. Hell, he might even be working on a way to help keep the team here in the long run. This Toronto thing may work. You never know.

Its kinda funny that the ones with the blinders on are the ones who live there. Look I realize because you and a few others live in the area you see things differently, thats to be expected. I absolutley LOVE when some know-it-all creates some stupid thread about the city of new orleans, especially when they know absolutley dick about the city.

The whole point of the thread was to state the facts AS WE KNOW THEM and discuss viable options in our minds anyway about the future of the team. Whether you like it or not, its gonna happen. How it happens is the part most of us are debating.

What you fail to mention is the Bills ticket prices being one of the lowest in the league. Of course the region is capable of filling a stadium MIkey. But that just the tip of the iceberg. Whether it be in a year or 5 when some new BILLIONAIRE (and lets face it in the Buffalo area there are only 1-2 options tops for that title and you are assuming they even want to get involved) buys the team you are making an assumption based on your personal bias that they will pass up what basically is one big bag of cash in other markets such as maybe toronto or LA.

Again, and for the last time, its about money. It always will be. Why on earth would an owner "settle" when there are plenty of "greener pastures" available? Why would he settle for 50 mil a year when he could move to LA and move into the ranks of Craft/Jones/Snyder? Whats your argument there? Because of the wings in Buffalo? Because of the weather? Because hes going to be SOOOOO loyal to the fanbase there? PLEASE.

You are right Mikey, more then you know. This Toronto thing may very well work. Although probably not in the way you suspect.

Your brain and your heart are not operating on the same page. But I suspect that will be the case for most fans.

[jamze132]

I think if there were buyers in WNY it would have to be a group. And even then as has been stated how is it you convince them to stay here?
If Buffalo is to keep having a team, a really, really rich dude who just happens to be a die hard Bills fan is going to have to step forward.

A group of Investor led by Golisano and Kelly could also get the job done. If the state kicks in a few bones to cover the taxes, it could be doable.

BTW anyone know exactly how much money Kelly could front?

[jamze132]

Also, the thing that you out of towners are not thinking about is that Buffalo is VERY connected with their team and not just in Western NY, but all over the country. Hell, they have one of the bigger backers club in the league. Their are Bills fans all over the place and we will not sit by while they take our team from us.
That's actually a pretty true statement about Bills fans all over the place. There is a Bills Backers chapter in ****in' Italy! WTF over?

I currently live in Italy and It's wierd, you occasionally see NFL sportwear being worn by the kids and I have seend 2 seperate Bills hats along with other teams such as Giants, Raiders, and the Cowboys.

I am deployed to the middle east as we speak (or type) and in Iraq there was a guy selling a few knockoff jerseys for like $30. He had a Lynch and Poz. Could be because he sold all the TO ones, I dunno. Lol

But my point is that for some reason, you can go just about anywhere and find Bills fan.

[Bmax]

Its kinda funny that the ones with the blinders on are the ones who live there. Look I realize because you and a few others live in the area you see things differently, thats to be expected. I absolutley LOVE when some know-it-all creates some stupid thread about the city of new orleans, especially when they know absolutley dick about the city.

The whole point of the thread was to state the facts AS WE KNOW THEM and discuss viable options in our minds anyway about the future of the team. Whether you like it or not, its gonna happen. How it happens is the part most of us are debating.

What you fail to mention is the Bills ticket prices being one of the lowest in the league. Of course the region is capable of filling a stadium MIkey. But that just the tip of the iceberg. Whether it be in a year or 5 when some new BILLIONAIRE (and lets face it in the Buffalo area there are only 1-2 options tops for that title and you are assuming they even want to get involved) buys the team you are making an assumption based on your personal bias that they will pass up what basically is one big bag of cash in other markets such as maybe toronto or LA.

Again, and for the last time, its about money. It always will be. Why on earth would an owner "settle" when there are plenty of "greener pastures" available? Why would he settle for 50 mil a year when he could move to LA and move into the ranks of Craft/Jones/Snyder? Whats your argument there? Because of the wings in Buffalo? Because of the weather? Because hes going to be SOOOOO loyal to the fanbase there? PLEASE.

You are right Mikey, more then you know. This Toronto thing may very well work. Although probably not in the way you suspect.

Your brain and your heart are not operating on the same page. But I suspect that will be the case for most fans.



I'm a buffalo guy who moved back in 2003.. I didn't want to come back .. But had to Sick Parents.. A reason alot of us came back. I went thru a period of hating being here...Bashed Buffalo to everyone that would listen .. That went on for a year.. Then i said Buffalo not so bad.. Poor Economy and all it only took a week to find a job then a better one Three Months later...Now a even better job This past September....Now I like it..

My neighborhood needs work, but i really like what's happening in the city.. Sure we stiill don't have a Peace bridge or Bass Pro yet .. Or even the casino but i think help is on the way....I rediscovered Delaware Park....Allentown, Elmwood Village, the Strip , UB football, Sabres Party in the plaza.. The great festivals ...Music in the Square....

I feel bad for people that can't really learn to love where they are at in life.. You see Buffalo is far more than the bills . It was in the past and it will be in the future.

People that aren't sports fans.. Love the Art, The Parks ,The Great Resturants.. Not just the Anchor Bar.....Been on Hertel Ave Lately........I wonder where some of you go when you come back ...YOU SEE WHEN WE TALK BUFFALO.. DON'T FORGET ABOUT AMHERST,WILLIAMSVILLE, CLARENCE ...Etc....

Hey just ask everyone that visits from other places of the country... They love it here...Buddy From NC was just here for the Jets game ...He loved the area.....

I'm just glad i no longer walk around looking for greener grass. I finally looked down and saw that i was standing in the greenest grass on the earth ..

Go Bills Go Buffalo....


Just wondering about the City of New Orleans again .. How Many of the People that left have returned ? Population was 450,000 before Katrina Now what about 270 or 250,000.. That would be Less than Buffalo......God Speed To Both Cities...


Bmax

[North_Coast]

Unfortunately, I figure a few months after Ralphie ***** up his toes, the moving vans will roll up and haul the Bills property away to another city. Maybe Toronto. Maybe LA. I seriously doubt that Goodell, or anyone, can get Wilson to change his mind, and I just don't see a local group putting together the nearly one billion it's going to take to keep the team here.

That's Ralphie's payback to WNY for all the money this area made him and his family over the decades.

[Nighthawk]

Its kinda funny that the ones with the blinders on are the ones who live there. Look I realize because you and a few others live in the area you see things differently, thats to be expected. I absolutley LOVE when some know-it-all creates some stupid thread about the city of new orleans, especially when they know absolutley dick about the city.

The whole point of the thread was to state the facts AS WE KNOW THEM and discuss viable options in our minds anyway about the future of the team. Whether you like it or not, its gonna happen. How it happens is the part most of us are debating.

What you fail to mention is the Bills ticket prices being one of the lowest in the league. Of course the region is capable of filling a stadium MIkey. But that just the tip of the iceberg. Whether it be in a year or 5 when some new BILLIONAIRE (and lets face it in the Buffalo area there are only 1-2 options tops for that title and you are assuming they even want to get involved) buys the team you are making an assumption based on your personal bias that they will pass up what basically is one big bag of cash in other markets such as maybe toronto or LA.

Again, and for the last time, its about money. It always will be. Why on earth would an owner "settle" when there are plenty of "greener pastures" available? Why would he settle for 50 mil a year when he could move to LA and move into the ranks of Craft/Jones/Snyder? Whats your argument there? Because of the wings in Buffalo? Because of the weather? Because hes going to be SOOOOO loyal to the fanbase there? PLEASE.

You are right Mikey, more then you know. This Toronto thing may very well work. Although probably not in the way you suspect.

Your brain and your heart are not operating on the same page. But I suspect that will be the case for most fans.


Trust me Devin, I know better than you how the WNY economy is! My occupation is in the Recruiting field and I know how much better the job market is than most of you do. In the last 3 years, Buffalo's market is a lot better than people give it credit for. Mikey is very right about most people who moved being the people bashing Buffalo. I'm glad I've stayed and I make a very good living, as do a bunch of people in Buffalo. It is very en vogue to bash Buffalo and that is what people seem to do.

[Michael82]

Trust me Devin, I know better than you how the WNY economy is! My occupation is in the Recruiting field and I know how much better the job market is than most of you do. In the last 3 years, Buffalo's market is a lot better than people give it credit for. Mikey is very right about most people who moved being the people bashing Buffalo. I'm glad I've stayed and I make a very good living, as do a bunch of people in Buffalo. It is very en vogue to bash Buffalo and that is what people seem to do.
:hi5:

[Devin]

Fair enough, we should be raking in the cash then!