Losman question from a Tulane U alum

[TunaFanForever]

First off, when Losman was drafted in the first round by your team, I got ESTASTIC(Tulane has a very good athletic program, but they're not exactly SEC, USC, etc Top 10 material, so first day picks don't come very often-Patrick Ramsey was also a #1 pick 2 years prior).

Anyhow-I'm somewhat dissapointed he hasn't fared well here. What has been his downfall in Buffalo? Could y'all elaberate on this?

Thanks in advance for your input!

[justasportsfan]

What has been his downfall in Buffalo?
He got drafted by buffalo.

[mybills]

He got drafted by buffalo.
:rofl: Pretty much!

They don't give QB's a full 4 years/64 starts. JP had 2y+2games/26 starts.
Since Kelly, that's how it's been. I suspect the trend will continue with Trent.

[gr8slayer]

Losman has been ****ed around by bad coaches and an even worse owner. He'll catch one somewhere else.

[Bulldog]

:rofl: Pretty much!

They don't give QB's a full 4 years/64 starts. JP had 2y+2games/26 starts.
Since Kelly, that's how it's been. I suspect the trend will continue with Trent.

Where are you coming up with this theory that a QB should get 4 years/64 starts? Most teams are not willing to wait that long for a QB to develop. Call me crazy, but four years is a long time.

[baalworship]

Bad coaching...Losman might still turn out pretty well if ends up in the right place. He was very unpolished when drafted.

[Inetpub]

your perspective blames the Buffalo bills. Start with looking at the man. He sucks.

When you do that, then you can look at the Buffalo Bills.

[mybills]

Where are you coming up with this theory that a QB should get 4 years/64 starts? Most teams are not willing to wait that long for a QB to develop. Call me crazy, but four years is a long time.
Most 1st round draft picks certainly do get that long, but the point was that even though he's been here for 4 years, he only had 26 starts - not 64 which = 16 starts per year.

[Mr. Pink]

He simply wasn't good enough.

Short, simple, to the point answer.

[Johnny Bugmenot]

They don't give QB's a full 4 years/64 starts.

Brady didn't need 64 starts to win the Super Bowl.
Roethlisberger didn't need 64 starts to win the Super Bowl.
Carson Palmer didn't need 64 starts to get the Bengals to the playoffs for the first time since 1990.
Rex Grossman, with all his flaws, didn't need 64 starts to get the Bears to the Super Bowl.
Philip Rivers didn't need 64 starts to lead his team to a division title.
Peyton Manning? Maybe, but I think he started catching on by his third season.

Your point is?

[mybills]

Your point is?
not worth explaining to someone who will just miss it once again.

[Bufftp]

Brady didn't need 64 starts to win the Super Bowl.
Roethlisberger didn't need 64 starts to win the Super Bowl.
Carson Palmer didn't need 64 starts to get the Bengals to the playoffs for the first time since 1990.
Rex Grossman, with all his flaws, didn't need 64 starts to get the Bears to the Super Bowl.
Philip Rivers didn't need 64 starts to lead his team to a division title.
Peyton Manning? Maybe, but I think he started catching on by his third season.

Your point is?
and what do those teams have that Lossman has never had here?
actually a whole laundry list of things.
Never the less it's edwards team now.

To answer Tuna's question,
Lossman just has had bad timing,
He was drafted by a team with bad coaches and bad talent at almost every position. Now the coaches have been changed and are still bad, the front office is slowly upgrading the talent but may have missfired on the O-line aquisitions.

He will catch on with someone else.

[Yasgur's Farm]

He hasn't been here 4 years... This is his 4th season.

That's a debating tool used by the other side.

[justasportsfan]

Losman never had any continuity with any offensive system plus a revolving OL. In his first year under Fairchild he played like Rivers is playing now under a new system under Norv Turner and yet Rivers has better talent and Ol aorund him.

Eli is playing with the same HC and is growing with the team.

Ben had Cowher and same system and OL for the most part.

So my answer remains. JP got screwed the minute he got drafted byt the bills . The only continuity this organization has is that we're continuing to rebuild. Even in JP's 4th year the bills are still rebuilding.

We will continue to do so once Evans leaves. By the time Lee's replacement in next years draft develops, TE will be off to another team and the rebuilding process continues.

[BAM]

Bad coaches & mostly bad play

Besides a couple great games here and there against very bad teams, he never impressed me much.

None of the Bills QB's since #12 have impressed me that much though.

[TacklingDummy]

Anyhow-I'm somewhat dissapointed he hasn't fared well here. What has been his downfall in Buffalo? Could y'all elaberate on this?



JP didn't take advantage of all the chances the Bills gave him. For the most part he has played poorly his whole career here. He had a couple of good games against the laughing stocks of the league (Miami/Houston) but other than that he has played below average.

So basically JPs downfall has been JP himself.

[The last buffalo fan]

He wasn't well coached and paid for someone else fault. IMO, the FO should give any QB, at least two full season at the helm. He never got that.

[ScottLawrence]

He still lacks the intelligence to read defenses, lack of pocket awarness really hurts him, and doesn't know how to throw the intermediate passes.

[Throne Logic]

Brady didn't need 64 starts to win the Super Bowl.
Roethlisberger didn't need 64 starts to win the Super Bowl.
Carson Palmer didn't need 64 starts to get the Bengals to the playoffs for the first time since 1990.
Rex Grossman, with all his flaws, didn't need 64 starts to get the Bears to the Super Bowl.
Philip Rivers didn't need 64 starts to lead his team to a division title.
Peyton Manning? Maybe, but I think he started catching on by his third season.

Your point is?

Friend, are you serious? How can you possibly consider the team Buffalo has surrounded Losman with over the past 4 seasons to be anywhere near the talent level and coaching aptitude of any of those teams you listed above? This is just not a logical argument. Do you really believe that Rex Grossman had anything to do with that team winning? Chicago won games in spite of Grossman. Heck, they primarily won with Kyle Orton behind center. On the opposite side of this spectrum, those QB's that did produce good numbers had offenses to support them. Chad and TJ were pretty good WR's for Palmer to work with. How about Pittsburgh with the support cast Ben had his rookie year. You just can't make that comparison with what JP has had to deal with.

If you want to make a valid comparison, you need to find like situations that JP could have been in. For example, you made this point by bringing up Peyton Manning. Indy stuck with him for three seasons until he began to figure it all out and produce on the field. That's 30-36 unchallenged starting opportunities. Another example is Drew Breeze. San Diego actually gave up on him after sticking with him for a couple full seasons and drafted Rivers only to find that Breeze figured it out that season.

Buffalo has not recently provided a nurturing environment for QB's. The past decade has been comprised primarily of weak, wishy-washy coaches who were basically the same in two primary areas. The most blatent is that all failed to assemble an overall winning solution, which is probably related to the wishy-washy attitudes which permiated to the decision making. The offshoot of the whimpy decision making is what we've seen with the QB situation since the late 1990's. How many "QB contravercies" have we had in Buffalo since Jim Kelly? I've begun to loose count. True contravercies only exist if the coaching staff allows them to. We need a coach to make a strong decisive, "This is our starter, dammit" statment followed up with actually sticking with that guy for more than 3 games come Hell or high water. This would go a long way in preventing what we've seen here with the likes of Wade, Gregg, Mike, and Dick. I thought that Dick might have figured it out going into this season. But, alas, he has not. He's established what is becoming a fractured polarized environment with yet another QB contravercy.

In my book, this is Dick's last shot. He's screwed up with JP at this point. JP will never be comfortable playing here again. So, Dick picked Edwards. He had better stick with him for the remainder of the season, regardless of what happens on the field. Give this kid a legit shot at growing into the position. He should not have to worry that each mistake he will inevitably make as a rookie might get him benched. Trent's first thoughts after mistakes should be about why those mistakes happened and how to correct them. Not whether or not he'll ever see the field again.

[raphael120]

Cutler and Young look damn good and they've had less than a year and a half.

[Luisito23]

JP didn't take advantage of all the chances the Bills gave him. For the most part he has played poorly his whole career here. He had a couple of good games against the laughing stocks of the league (Miami/Houston) but other than that he has played below average.

So basically JPs downfall has been JP himself.



Good post!.....:beers:...



GO BILLS!!!!!!!!

[mybills]

Cutler and Young look damn good and they've had less than a year and a half.
even a squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

[justasportsfan]

Cutler and Young look damn good and they've had less than a year and a half.
they've had continuity with coaches and OL. JP had neither. Granted that they are newbies, the rest of the team around them were very familiar with each other. JP's game went to a new level once the OL was revamp in the 2nd half of last years season. Then the OL gets rebuilt again and then struggled the first few games. Last years 2nd half OL was better than this years OL during the first few games. Even Royals admitted that he would want to see JP play with the OL starting to play better.

[TigerJ]

I'll itemize for you:

1. Losman came out of a college program that had an unconventional offense (exclusively shotgun) and a lousy offensive line. When the first receiver wasn't open, JP pulled the ball down and ran. Even if you're Michael Vick, that doesn't work forever in the NFL. His reading skills were undeveloped and he was unprepared for the NFL.

2. He lost his first season to injury.

3. In his third season there was pressure on the team to win now. He started because the alternative QB wasn't very talented, but since Losman hadn't had time to aclimate to the pro game, it was a foregone conclusion that he was going to struggle. The coach was feeling pressure to to win now so he sat Losman in favor of more experienced, but noodle armed Kelly Holcomb.

4. In his third season, the Bills had a new coach, a new offensive system and offensive coordinator. So Losman had to start from scratch. The Bills handled him carefully giving him a very basic offense to run at the beginning of the season. He learned some discipline, but the team lost some games in part because of a tough schedule and the constraints of the offensive system he was asked to run. After the bye week, the system was opened up and Losman began to thrive.

4. Now in his fourth season, the Bills had wholesale changes on the offensive line. The Bills opened the season against some tough opponents. Denver had not one, but two lock down corners. Buffalo reacted with a hypercautious game plan. They lost a close game. Second game, Buffalo faced a very tough Steeler defense designed by zone blitz guru Dick LeBeau. Buffalo, with its newly reconstituted offensive line, again went hyper conservative. The Bills were crushed. Third game, Buffalo faces the best team in the league and Losman gets hurt early. Edwards comes out and in his very first drive as a rookie NFL QB drives the length of the field and scores a TD. The coaches are impressed, the imagination of the fans is captured and JP is history.

Now maybe if the team had been less conservative in the Denver game, Buffalo might have won and that would have been enough to keep his job after he got injured. However, JP clearly struggles with some things that come more naturally to Edwards. In the end it has been a series of circumstances that worked against Losman coupled with a weakness in his game (an undeveloped ability to read defenses quickly and check down to his second, third or fourth receiver if necessary) that led to his demise. He still has outstanding athleticism for the position and given the right circumstances may still develop into a top notch NFL QB in the NFL, but it ain't gonna happen in Buffalo.

[justasportsfan]

I'll itemize for you:

1. Losman came out of a college program that had an unconventional offense (exclusively shotgun) and a lousy offensive line. When the first receiver wasn't open, JP pulled the ball down and ran. Even if you're Michael Vick, that doesn't work forever in the NFL. His reading skills were undeveloped and he was unprepared for the NFL.

2. He lost his first season to injury.

3. In his third season there was pressure on the team to win now. He started because the alternative QB wasn't very talented, but since Losman hadn't had time to aclimate to the pro game, it was a foregone conclusion that he was going to struggle. The coach was feeling pressure to to win now so he sat Losman in favor of more experienced, but noodle armed Kelly Holcomb.

4. In his third season, the Bills had a new coach, a new offensive system and offensive coordinator. So Losman had to start from scratch. The Bills handled him carefully giving him a very basic offense to run at the beginning of the season. He learned some discipline, but the team lost some games in part because of a tough schedule and the constraints of the offensive system he was asked to run. After the bye week, the system was opened up and Losman began to thrive.

4. Now in his fourth season, the Bills had wholesale changes on the offensive line. The Bills opened the season against some tough opponents. Denver had not one, but two lock down corners. Buffalo reacted with a hypercautious game plan. They lost a close game. Second game, Buffalo faced a very tough Steeler defense designed by zone blitz guru Dick LeBeau. Buffalo, with its newly reconstituted offensive line, again went hyper conservative. The Bills were crushed. Third game, Buffalo faces the best team in the league and Losman gets hurt early. Edwards comes out and in his very first drive as a rookie NFL QB drives the length of the field and scores a TD. The coaches are impressed, the imagination of the fans is captured and JP is history. :bf1:


However, JP clearly struggles with some things that come more naturally to Edwards. In the end it has been a series of circumstances that worked against Losman coupled with a weakness in his game (an undeveloped ability to read defenses quickly and check down to his second, third or fourth receiver if necessary) that led to his demise. He still has outstanding athleticism for the position and given the right circumstances may still develop into a top notch NFL QB in the NFL, but it ain't gonna happen in Buffalo.


My question is, were the playcalls made differently to feed into a qb;s ability.

JP is made to thorw deep because he's got that arm and has proven to be able to get the ball to Evans deep to the point that they were best at it last year.

When Edwards came in against the Jets, Lee was made to run short routes to take get the ball out of Edwards' hands quickly. Lee led the team in receptions.

Against the Cowboys , they made Evans go deep routes. While TE did okay in the short routes to the TE's and rb, he struggled in the deep ball. Evans was useless.

Against the Ravens believe it or not, he struggled. 154 yards and half of that was to Evans. TE's disappeared, as did Reed and the rb in the passing game. But Lee ran short routes as well.

I don't think JP short passes are are problem. He seemed to hit his short passes in the 2nd half of last years season. He found his checkdowns when he called his own plays in the 2 2 minute come from behind wins. I think it Fairchild who expects to go deep with JP and has gone away from it with TE.

What were Dicks words in the first game against denver ? We don't know what we have in lYnch. Looks like we tried to find out. When we tried to throw, the OL collapsed faster than Rob Jonson.

Ditto on the Pitts game.

We never found out against the Pats.

While TE ran an impresive 1st series against the Pats, once they realized he is limited to dinking and dunking, the rest of the game was hell.

[Oaf]

He still has outstanding athleticism for the position and given the right circumstances may still develop into a top notch NFL QB in the NFL, but it ain't gonna happen in Buffalo.\

:ill:
That's what hurts the most.

[Yasgur's Farm]

I'll itemize for you:

1. Losman came out of a college program that had an unconventional offense (exclusively shotgun) and a lousy offensive line. When the first receiver wasn't open, JP pulled the ball down and ran. Even if you're Michael Vick, that doesn't work forever in the NFL. His reading skills were undeveloped and he was unprepared for the NFL.

2. He lost his first season to injury.

3. In his third season there was pressure on the team to win now. He started because the alternative QB wasn't very talented, but since Losman hadn't had time to aclimate to the pro game, it was a foregone conclusion that he was going to struggle. The coach was feeling pressure to to win now so he sat Losman in favor of more experienced, but noodle armed Kelly Holcomb.

4. In his third season, the Bills had a new coach, a new offensive system and offensive coordinator. So Losman had to start from scratch. The Bills handled him carefully giving him a very basic offense to run at the beginning of the season. He learned some discipline, but the team lost some games in part because of a tough schedule and the constraints of the offensive system he was asked to run. After the bye week, the system was opened up and Losman began to thrive.

4. Now in his fourth season, the Bills had wholesale changes on the offensive line. The Bills opened the season against some tough opponents. Denver had not one, but two lock down corners. Buffalo reacted with a hypercautious game plan. They lost a close game. Second game, Buffalo faced a very tough Steeler defense designed by zone blitz guru Dick LeBeau. Buffalo, with its newly reconstituted offensive line, again went hyper conservative. The Bills were crushed. Third game, Buffalo faces the best team in the league and Losman gets hurt early. Edwards comes out and in his very first drive as a rookie NFL QB drives the length of the field and scores a TD. The coaches are impressed, the imagination of the fans is captured and JP is history.

Now maybe if the team had been less conservative in the Denver game, Buffalo might have won and that would have been enough to keep his job after he got injured. However, JP clearly struggles with some things that come more naturally to Edwards. In the end it has been a series of circumstances that worked against Losman coupled with a weakness in his game (an undeveloped ability to read defenses quickly and check down to his second, third or fourth receiver if necessary) that led to his demise. He still has outstanding athleticism for the position and given the right circumstances may still develop into a top notch NFL QB in the NFL, but it ain't gonna happen in Buffalo.Outstanding recap of ACTUAL events... Thank you.

[TigerJ]

My question is, were the playcalls made differently to feed into a qb;s ability.

JP is made to thorw deep because he's got that arm and has proven to be able to get the ball to Evans deep to the point that they were best at it last year.

When Edwards came in against the Jets, Lee was made to run short routes to take get the ball out of Edwards' hands quickly. Lee led the team in receptions.

Against the Cowboys , they made Evans go deep routes. While TE did okay in the short routes to the TE's and rb, he struggled in the deep ball. Evans was useless.

Against the Ravens believe it or not, he struggled. 154 yards and half of that was to Evans. TE's disappeared, as did Reed and the rb in the passing game. But Lee ran short routes as well.

I don't think JP short passes are are problem. He seemed to hit his short passes in the 2nd half of last years season. He found his checkdowns when he called his own plays in the 2 2 minute come from behind wins. I think it Fairchild who expects to go deep with JP and has gone away from it with TE.

What were Dicks words in the first game against denver ? We don't know what we have in lYnch. Looks like we tried to find out. When we tried to throw, the OL collapsed faster than Rob Jonson.

Ditto on the Pitts game.

We never found out against the Pats.

While TE ran an impresive 1st series against the Pats, once they realized he is limited to dinking and dunking, the rest of the game was hell.

I pretty much agree with you. I'm definitely not anti-Losman. The "Losman can't throw short" reputation is definitely a myth. I think some of the problem comes from the fact that Losman does have a great arm and sometimes wants to wait an extra half second, that he really doesn't have, for a receiver to get open deep. Edward's response to his lack of protection at Stanford seems to be than he makes his reads and checks down very quickly when his primary receiver is not open. Sometimes, I think you can argue, he should wait a little longer. I'm not anti-Edwards either. I think he has plenty of arm, and can learn greater accuracy on long throws, but I think it might be a mistake to think that because he had a touchdown in his first NFL drive, and it happened to be the NE Patriots, that he's a finished product. He's not. He has weaknesses in his game and he needs to get better. I think he will.

[Bills4Life83]

I dont understand the question. JP did great considering he came from Tulane. He lasted longer and put up better stats than Patrick Ramsey and Shaun King. He should receive an award from Tulane for his outstanding achievements.

The real question is why the Bills would ever spend a first round pick on someone out of Tulane.

[Johnny Bugmenot]

Didn't Shaun King lead the Buccaneers to the conference championships? He did pretty well in Tampa Bay until they basically buried him-- behind Rob Johnson of all people.

[Bills4Life83]

He played in the Conference Championship but I would hardly say he led them there. He threw as many passes backwards as forwards.

[Inetpub]

I'll itemize for you:

1. Losman came out of a college program that had an unconventional offense (exclusively shotgun) and a lousy offensive line. When the first receiver wasn't open, JP pulled the ball down and ran. Even if you're Michael Vick, that doesn't work forever in the NFL. His reading skills were undeveloped and he was unprepared for the NFL.

2. He lost his first season to injury.

3. In his third season there was pressure on the team to win now. He started because the alternative QB wasn't very talented, but since Losman hadn't had time to aclimate to the pro game, it was a foregone conclusion that he was going to struggle. The coach was feeling pressure to to win now so he sat Losman in favor of more experienced, but noodle armed Kelly Holcomb.

4. In his third season, the Bills had a new coach, a new offensive system and offensive coordinator. So Losman had to start from scratch. The Bills handled him carefully giving him a very basic offense to run at the beginning of the season. He learned some discipline, but the team lost some games in part because of a tough schedule and the constraints of the offensive system he was asked to run. After the bye week, the system was opened up and Losman began to thrive.

4. Now in his fourth season, the Bills had wholesale changes on the offensive line. The Bills opened the season against some tough opponents. Denver had not one, but two lock down corners. Buffalo reacted with a hypercautious game plan. They lost a close game. Second game, Buffalo faced a very tough Steeler defense designed by zone blitz guru Dick LeBeau. Buffalo, with its newly reconstituted offensive line, again went hyper conservative. The Bills were crushed. Third game, Buffalo faces the best team in the league and Losman gets hurt early. Edwards comes out and in his very first drive as a rookie NFL QB drives the length of the field and scores a TD. The coaches are impressed, the imagination of the fans is captured and JP is history.

Now maybe if the team had been less conservative in the Denver game, Buffalo might have won and that would have been enough to keep his job after he got injured. However, JP clearly struggles with some things that come more naturally to Edwards. In the end it has been a series of circumstances that worked against Losman coupled with a weakness in his game (an undeveloped ability to read defenses quickly and check down to his second, third or fourth receiver if necessary) that led to his demise. He still has outstanding athleticism for the position and given the right circumstances may still develop into a top notch NFL QB in the NFL, but it ain't gonna happen in Buffalo.

I think I just read every single Loserman excuse in the book there. Wheres the blame on Loserman? When did it become a standard that a player isnt accountable for his actions? Why dont you guys look at the player? Hes the one playing the game! It all starts with him!

[TigerJ]

I think I just read every single Loserman excuse in the book there. Wheres the blame on Loserman? When did it become a standard that a player isnt accountable for his actions? Why dont you guys look at the player? Hes the one playing the game! It all starts with him!

OK, JP Losman must be purely evil. He doesn't want the Bills to succeed, and has sacrificed his own future in order prevent the Bills from winning.

On a serious note, I begin with two assumptions. One is that players get drafted in the first round because they have some talent. Second, they want to succeed. If I look at Losman, I see some obvious talent. He has athleticism as a mobile QB, and he has a great arm. Moreover, I think he has some intelligence. Those things don't guarantee success, but they aren't bad tthings to start with. Academic inteligence has to translate to football smarts and instinct, the ability to feel pressure, make quick reads, etc. JP does not do some of those things very well. He would rather not check down because he likes to throw long in some situations. He doesn't have great judgement in this. He takes too many sacks and sometimes fumbles the ball. He has lapses in accuracy. He probably has some other shortcomings as well. Now those shortcomings can either be fixable or not. They haven't been completely fixed. You can debate whether they've been fixed at all. Maybe JP is hopeless and no amount of time will let him get to the point where he's agood QB. If that's your assumption, fine, I can't disprove it. I happen to think that the circumstances of the last several years have done Losman no particular favors.

That said, I'm not arguing that Losman should start. What's done is done. Edwards has his own strengths and weaknesses, some of which are due to circumstances in his college football career. I happen to think he can be a really good NFL QB. I am rooting for him, but he's not a finished product, and he would tell you that.

[The Answer]

First off, when Losman was drafted in the first round by your team, I got ESTASTIC(Tulane has a very good athletic program, but they're not exactly SEC, USC, etc Top 10 material, so first day picks don't come very often-Patrick Ramsey was also a #1 pick 2 years prior).

Anyhow-I'm somewhat dissapointed he hasn't fared well here. What has been his downfall in Buffalo? Could y'all elaberate on this?

Thanks in advance for your input!

In Loseman's defense - he was drafted under the Moolarkey/Donablow regime and that alone most certainly contributed to an early demise.

In the end though he just didn't have the talent and intelligence to suceed at the pro level. He'll get another chance next year with a new team but The Answer expects him to be benched for the same type of futility sooner than later.

~The Answer

[mybills]

I think I just read every single Loserman excuse in the book there.
Take off the hate glasses & read it again. You hate him so much you can't even spell his name right.
You're not alone, though..he must shop for hate glasses in the same place.

In Loseman's defense -
btw, nice title! :up:

[djjimkelly]

He hasn't been here 4 years... This is his 4th season.

That's a debating tool used by the other side.


and everyone leaves out troy vincent axed his leg in year 1 which was like a red shirt year

[Albany,n.y.]

Losman has been ****ed around by bad coaches and an even worse owner. He'll catch one somewhere else.
Is he being converted to WR by his next team?

[jamze132]

Where are you coming up with this theory that a QB should get 4 years/64 starts? Most teams are not willing to wait that long for a QB to develop. Call me crazy, but four years is a long time.
He didn't have 4 ENTIRE years so don't make it sound like he did. The guy only had once chance to be the everyday starter and that was last year. And what happened when he was playing each week regardless of win or loss? He played with more confidence and got better.

JP will play elsewhere and be a good QB.