It's 2004 Losman/Bledsoe all over again

[OpIv37]

Remember the end of 2004? After a crappy start, we made an improbable run at a playoff spot and came up just short.

Because we were winning, JP stayed on the bench and Bledsoe played out the season. When '05 started, JP clearly would have benefitted from the experience.

Well, we're right back in the same situation. We still have a shot at the playoffs, so Edwards isn't playing. But like Bledsoe, it's becoming painfully obvious that JP isn't the right QB for this team.

I'm not convinced Edwards is the answer either, but going forward in the off-season, it would be nice to have some indication of whether or not he's servicable so we have the option of going in a different direction with QB.

This is an interesting predicament because this team is 5-5 and still has an outside shot at the playoffs (even though I think it's a lot less realistic than the mathematics make it sound). If we play Edwards, it will piss off the vets (Jauron already made that mistake) and send a signal that this year is training camp for next year. If we don't play Edwards, we're making the off-season even more difficult and potentially screwing up the future.

So, what do we do?

[Forward_Lateral]

It's a double-edged sword. If Buffalo loses Sunday in Jax, you can almost bet that Losman will not be starting the week after. If Buffalo wins, then he probably keeps his job.

I think Dick will wait until the Bills fall out of contention before he makes another QB change. Of course, they could keep winning, and make the playoffs, then I don't know what happens with Losman.

[The King]

Bledsoe had done some promising things his first year at least, Jp has done nothing to show he's an NFL qb.

[Mitchy moo]

Why don't we spin a QB debate a different way every other thread??

It's getting really freaking old man, please I beg all of you to stop on the QB debate, we need a moratorium.

[OpIv37]

Why don't we spin a QB debate a different way every other thread??

It's getting really freaking old man, please I beg all of you to stop on the QB debate, we need a moratorium.

This isn't another Losman/Edwards debate.

It's a "what to do about the QB position going forward" debate. Clearly the position isn't set and something will have to be done in the off-season, and it looks like we're falling for the same trap we fell into in 04.

[OpIv37]

It's a double-edged sword. If Buffalo loses Sunday in Jax, you can almost bet that Losman will not be starting the week after. If Buffalo wins, then he probably keeps his job.

I think Dick will wait until the Bills fall out of contention before he makes another QB change. Of course, they could keep winning, and make the playoffs, then I don't know what happens with Losman.

Short term making the playoffs would be great.

Long term, it could actually be a curse because it would be tough to dump Losman if he got us to the playoffs. Look at the Bears and Rex Grossman.

[billsburgh]

Short term making the playoffs would be great.

Long term, it could actually be a curse because it would be tough to dump Losman if he got us to the playoffs. Look at the Bears and Rex Grossman.
we should learn from the Bears' mistake. they had success in spite of Grossman's play and they stuck with him too long. I dont want to see the Bills make the same mistake.

[The Answer]

Bledsoe had done some promising things his first year at least, Jp has done nothing to show he's an NFL qb.

Plus Bledsoe took his team to the superbowl in his 3rd nfl season - Losman hasn't even sniffed the playoffs yet.

~The Answer

[Mr. Pink]

Bledsoe is a borderline HOFer, he has huge numbers and has been to the bowl in his career...twice.

Losman is a borderline cashier at Tops, who'd probably drop the eggs trying to bag them.

Comparing the two at this juncture is laughable.

This is more like Vince Ferragamo vs Bruce Mathison.

[The Answer]

Bledsoe is a borderline HOFer, he has huge numbers and has been to the bowl in his career...twice.

Losman is a borderline cashier at Tops, who'd probably drop the eggs trying to bag them.

Comparing the two at this juncture is laughable.

This is more like Vince Ferragamo vs Bruce Mathison.

Exactly - comparing Losman to Akili Smith or Cade McNown would be a far better example.

~The Answer

[The King]

Bledsoe is a borderline HOFer, he has huge numbers and has been to the bowl in his career...twice.

Losman is a borderline cashier at Tops, who'd probably drop the eggs trying to bag them.

Comparing the two at this juncture is laughable.

This is more like Vince Ferragamo vs Bruce Mathison.

Actually he went to the Pro Bowl 4 times... but saying he's a borderline HOFer here will get you flamed.

[Mr. Pink]

Actually he went to the Pro Bowl 4 times... but saying he's a borderline HOFer here will get you flamed.


Meant Superbowl.

Yes Brady was at the helm in 2000 for most of the year due to Bledsoe's injury BUT Bledsoe played a hell of a game vs Pittsburgh in the playoffs when Brady got hurt to get them to that Superbowl.

And numbers + his success as a pro doesn't lie. As much as people around here hate him. Which is pretty justified because when he was leaving here he was pretty much hanging on by a thread and should have retired.

[Forward_Lateral]

Meant Superbowl.

Yes Brady was at the helm in 2000 for most of the year due to Bledsoe's injury BUT Bledsoe played a hell of a game vs Pittsburgh in the playoffs when Brady got hurt to get them to that Superbowl.

And numbers + his success as a pro doesn't lie. As much as people around here hate him. Which is pretty justified because when he was leaving here he was pretty much hanging on by a thread and should have retired.

Just imagine if Donahoe had put an O-line in place for Bledsoe like the one that Marv put in place this year. Bledsoe, when given time, was a hell of a passer. He was slow as Bernie Kosar with a broken leg, but the Bills KNEW that when they got him. It still baffles me as to why the O-line wasn't addressed for so many years.

[OpIv37]

Just imagine if Donahoe had put an O-line in place for Bledsoe like the one that Marv put in place this year. Bledsoe, when given time, was a hell of a passer. He was slow as Bernie Kosar with a broken leg, but the Bills KNEW that when they got him. It still baffles me as to why the O-line wasn't addressed for so many years.

even now they still haven't gotten it right because we've got a mismatch between our OL and the talent behind them.

We have a great RB but an OL that can't run block. We have an OL that can pass block but QB's that are questionable at best.

[Forward_Lateral]

even now they still haven't gotten it right because we've got a mismatch between our OL and the talent behind them.

We have a great RB but an OL that can't run block. We have an OL that can pass block but QB's that are questionable at best.

I think the run blocking is more of a bad scheme that ability. Those guys are all huge, they should be able to engulf opposing Dline, and especially LBs. It seems like the running plays are often too extravagent. If I was OC, I'd be calling plays where there was more straight ahead blocking, as opposed to zone-blocking or whatever the hell it's called.

[OpIv37]

I think the run blocking is more of a bad scheme that ability. Those guys are all huge, they should be able to engulf opposing Dline, and especially LBs. It seems like the running plays are often too extravagent. If I was OC, I'd be calling plays where there was more straight ahead blocking, as opposed to zone-blocking or whatever the hell it's called.

I remember about two years ago, everyone was wondering why more teams didn't use Denver's zone blocking. Now, we're seeing why. The scheme calls for the lineman to actually take a step BACK, so they instantly lose that initial push. Seems counterintuitive to a running play.

[Forward_Lateral]

I remember about two years ago, everyone was wondering why more teams didn't use Denver's zone blocking. Now, we're seeing why. The scheme calls for the lineman to actually take a step BACK, so they instantly lose that initial push. Seems counterintuitive to a running play.

Well, Denver's O-linemen can actually move, and are the smallest in the NFL, I believe.

I agree, moving backwards makes no sense, on running plays. I don't know who comes up with the run blocking schemes, but whoever it is, should be fired.

[Philagape]

Bledsoe is a borderline HOFer, he has huge numbers and has been to the bowl in his career...twice.

Losman is a borderline cashier at Tops, who'd probably drop the eggs trying to bag them.

Comparing the two at this juncture is laughable.

This is more like Vince Ferragamo vs Bruce Mathison.

I think the comparison is their time in Buffalo, not their whole careers. And their passing style, to an extent. Bledsoe had the rocket arm but made dumb plays too.

And HOF ... doubtful. Bledsoe had the quantity but not the quality. But that's off topic

[justasportsfan]

Bledsoe had done some promising things his first year at least, Jp has done nothing to show he's an NFL qb.

When Drew came here he was already an established overrated qb. JP was a rookie. You can't compare them both when they were here. Drew has had the tuna. JP had Moolarkey and Fairchild. Apples and oranges.

Another thing, people here and national media said he established himself last season. Flipflopping seems to the the theme here lately.

[justasportsfan]

Bledsoe is a borderline HOFer, he has huge numbers and has been to the bowl in his career...twice.

Losman is a borderline cashier at Tops, who'd probably drop the eggs trying to bag them.

Comparing the two at this juncture is laughable.

This is more like Vince Ferragamo vs Bruce Mathison.
I will use the same excuse haters use for Trent. It's too early to gauge ones entire career. How many years did it take Steve Young? Young played better whne he had a real HC . JP hasn't had one. Rich Gannon?

[Forward_Lateral]

I will use the same excuse haters use for Trent. It's too early to gauge ones entire career. How many years did it take Steve Young? Young played better whne he had a real HC . JP hasn't had one. Rich Gannon?

Are you ***** kidding me? JP has had PLENTY of time to prove his worth. Coaching has NOTHING to do with poor QB play. The coach isn't the one out there throwing passes into defender's arms, or the ground. The coach isn't hte one out there staring down WRs.

This statement is ridiculous. How the hell anyone can think JP hasn't had enough time to prove himself yet is beyond me.

[justasportsfan]

Are you ***** kidding me? JP has had PLENTY of time to prove his worth. Coaching has NOTHING to do with poor QB play. The coach isn't the one out there throwing passes into defender's arms, or the ground. The coach isn't hte one out there staring down WRs.

This statement is ridiculous. How the hell anyone can think JP hasn't had enough time to prove himself yet is beyond me.

prove himself here, I agree. As far as his career goes, get him a coach who knows football and we'll see. Like said, Steve Young.

It took Brees 3 years to finally get it and he had the same coach and system the whole time. JP has had musical chairs in both coaching and OL.

No one could've succeeded here . Not Eli, not Rivers (who struggling because of...coaching), not Ben.

If the same happenes to Trent , I expect him to fail as well.

[Forward_Lateral]

prove himself here, I agree. As far as his career goes, get him a coach who knows football and we'll see. Like said, Steve Young.

It took Brees 3 years to finally get it and he had the same coach and system the whole time. JP has had musical chairs in both coaching and OL.

No one could've succeeded here . Not Eli, not Rivers (who struggling because of...coaching), not Ben.

If the same happenes to Trent , I expect him to fail as well.

All of the above mentioned QBs have/had the fundamentals down all along. There's no excuse for Losman's inaccuracy, inability to read defenses, etc at this point in his career. He shouldn't get anymore free passes. For once, people need to hold Losman accountable for his play, not blame it on other factors.

[colin]

the difference is that drew as mentioned above had some success for us in 02. at that time jp was known as a totally raw rookie.

now we have JP who is known as a guy who isn't good, and trent who is a rook who has had some success with us this year. we don't have any real drop off in play when we put in trent, and i'd say we are better with him in there. throw in the upside and it's a no brainer to me.

i really wonder why the FO is keeping in losman -- either trent is still hurt, they are worried about exposing him without lynch in there, or there is something else going on.

[justasportsfan]

All of the above mentioned QBs have/had the fundamentals down all along. There's no excuse for Losman's inaccuracy, inability to read defenses, etc at this point in his career. He shouldn't get anymore free passes. For once, people need to hold Losman accountable for his play, not blame it on other factors.

Why is Rivers having a JP like season with better weapons and the same team he started with? What happened to his fundamentals? Eli is barely anything special either and he's had the same OL . Ben is the only one who's having a probowl year but I doubt he'd be anything special if we drafted him.

Steve Young with Tampa was worse than JP was in his first few years here. This bills team was no different from that crappy Tampa team.

he is being held accountable but for anyone to say his career is over based on his experience here in buffalo is just insane.

[The Answer]

Why is it so hard to comprehend that Edwards, as a rookie, has played at the same level as a 4 year veteran? Which most likely indicates he will only get better as his career progresses, where as Losman has simply reached his ceiling as a pro QB.

This talk of Edwards not being the answer at QB is simply ludicrous and Bills fans are more ravenous than ever. Lets give him at least one full season before we call for his head....

~The Answer

[The King]

When Drew came here he was already an established overrated qb. JP was a rookie. You can't compare them both when they were here. Drew has had the tuna. JP had Moolarkey and Fairchild. Apples and oranges.

Another thing, people here and national media said he established himself last season. Flipflopping seems to the the theme here lately.

The media can flip all day. I have never been impressed with Losman.

[HAMMER]

Jauron can't flip-flop on the QB again, it's Losman until we are out of contention, then they move on.

[OpIv37]

Why is it so hard to comprehend that Edwards, as a rookie, has played at the same level as a 4 year veteran? Which most likely indicates he will only get better as his career progresses, where as Losman has simply reached his ceiling as a pro QB.

This talk of Edwards not being the answer at QB is simply ludicrous and Bills fans are more ravenous than ever. Lets give him at least one full season before we call for his head....

~The Answer

I would expect the world's biggest Holcomb fan to like Edwards.

He's efficient but he just seems to be missing something. And playing at the same level as a 4 year vet is more a knock on JP than a compliment to Edwards.

[Drev8]

I would expect the world's biggest Holcomb fan to like Edwards.

He's efficient but he just seems to be missing something. And playing at the same level as a 4 year vet is more a knock on JP than a compliment to Edwards.

Dude. He's a rookie whose played 4 games. Surely this is a rush to judgment!

[OpIv37]

Dude. He's a rookie whose played 4 games. Surely this is a rush to judgment!

maybe but consider this:

If the coaches go with him and they're wrong, it's 2-3 years of grooming him then 2-3 years of grooming his replacement and it's 2012 before the QB spot is solidified.

[R. Rich]

Remember the end of 2004? After a crappy start, we made an improbable run at a playoff spot and came up just short.

Because we were winning, JP stayed on the bench and Bledsoe played out the season. When '05 started, JP clearly would have benefitted from the experience.

Well, we're right back in the same situation. We still have a shot at the playoffs, so Edwards isn't playing. But like Bledsoe, it's becoming painfully obvious that JP isn't the right QB for this team.

I'm not convinced Edwards is the answer either, but going forward in the off-season, it would be nice to have some indication of whether or not he's servicable so we have the option of going in a different direction with QB.

This is an interesting predicament because this team is 5-5 and still has an outside shot at the playoffs (even though I think it's a lot less realistic than the mathematics make it sound). If we play Edwards, it will piss off the vets (Jauron already made that mistake) and send a signal that this year is training camp for next year. If we don't play Edwards, we're making the off-season even more difficult and potentially screwing up the future.

So, what do we do?


This is almost as pathetic as the Flutie/RJ days. It sure will be nice to see the Bills field a competitive team that actually wins so that you all can STFU.

[YardRat]

I think it's more comparable to Holcomb/Losman in '05.

[imbondz]

yep. at least with Bledsoe I had hope of greater things

[acehole]

Why don't we spin a QB debate a different way every other thread??

It's getting really freaking old man, please I beg all of you to stop on the QB debate, we need a moratorium.

I miss our draft and off season threads.

[acehole]

maybe but consider this:

If the coaches go with him and they're wrong, it's 2-3 years of grooming him then 2-3 years of grooming his replacement and it's 2012 before the QB spot is solidified.

OPy I am so glad I am not the only one with this on there mind.

It is allmost better we go to FA for a qb... D Anderson anyone?

If we wait to long it is Evans, Mcargo, witner gone to Fa's and
we start the whole freaking thing again. The big elephant in the
room as we are killing each about the qb's is the over all lack of
playmakers on both sides of the ball....The lack of commitment
to put a winner out there as it relates to dollars.

[Elminster]

I'd be hesitant to go full-on with Edwards. In hindsight, we played Losman before he was ready to play, and it has cost us dearly, and may very well have cost us a 1st-round pick. I don't feel that Edwards is game ready: he gets rid of the ball too quickly, and seems uncomfortable holding it. While he is more consistently accurate in the pocket, I don't think he gives us any bang. You're not going to get a defense to back off with 4-5 yard passes. I think Edwards needs an off-season of coaching to help him with his longer throws and get him over his nervousness with the ball. He also wilts under pressure. He should definitely see spot action. Pending Losman's play, he may be gone or in a TC comp. Before people accuse me of ridiculous things: Losman's contract expires next year. If he doesn't improve, the job is lost to him(even if he wins in TC) if he fails to improve. If he loses in TC, we can dangle him in front of QB-deprived teams. I do believe he has value: in the right system, he could be a better Jake Plummer and possibly even gain greater comfort in the pocket in time, but if our coaches refuse to utilize his talent and mitigate his weaknesses, then they have set him up to fail.

[OpIv37]

I think it's more comparable to Holcomb/Losman in '05.

we were never in contention for a playoff spot in 05.

In 04 and this year, we started slow, had a great streak, and with a little over a month to go, still had a mathematical shot at a wild card. That's where the similarity comes in- a guy who may not be the best option is starting because he won just enough to keep us mired in the middle of the pack.

[OpIv37]

OPy I am so glad I am not the only one with this on there mind.

It is allmost better we go to FA for a qb... D Anderson anyone?

If we wait to long it is Evans, Mcargo, witner gone to Fa's and
we start the whole freaking thing again. The big elephant in the
room as we are killing each about the qb's is the over all lack of
playmakers on both sides of the ball....The lack of commitment
to put a winner out there as it relates to dollars.

an FA might be a good option because presumably he'd be more prepared than a rookie.

I'm not sure Derrick Anderson's the guy though. I saw John Clayton discussing Anderson this morning- he throws a lot of high passes because Edwards, Winslow and Jurevicius are all in the 6'4" range- they use their height and length to stretch out for balls that would be overthrown for most receivers. This is good news for Cleveland because Brady Quinn did the same thing with McKnight and Szmardija at ND... but I digress.

I'm not saying Anderson's a bad QB- just that it would be a huge adjustment to throw to 5'6" Roscoe Parrish, 5'9" Lee Evans, and our useless TE's. That being said, if they decide to go in a different direction than Losman and Edwards at QB (and I hope they do), FA is probably a better option than wasting talent while we groom a new QB.

[Wys Guy]

So, what do we do?

Simple! Fold and redeal!

No sense in trying to patch together a hand from crap.