Brady was known as a dink and dunker his first year! [Archive] - BillsZone.com

Kerr

11-23-2007, 08:51 AM

Actually, I think the scouting reports on Edwards indicated he has a strong arm. I imagine that the dink and dunk stuff is mostly the coaching staff being conservative with him at this point in his career.

If he is going to be our QB for the long term, he'll need to have the ability to throw deep, which I think he has.

Edwards does have an arm, it's just not comparable to jp's. Of course, that doesn't mean squat in this day and age. I'm pretty sure edwards's arm is a lot better than chad "noodle arm" pennington's arm.

mchurchfie

11-23-2007, 09:03 AM

Actually, I think the scouting reports on Edwards indicated he has a strong arm. I imagine that the dink and dunk stuff is mostly the coaching staff being conservative with him at this point in his career.

If he is going to be our QB for the long term, he'll need to have the ability to throw deep, which I think he has.
Most scouting reports say he has a good NFL caliber arm with good mobility. They say he needs to work more on his longball accuracy. That's why I think it is ridiculous when some people on here paint him as a slow QB with a weak arm.

acehole

11-23-2007, 09:17 AM

Just saying!

Yea..ok so now he has been compared to Montana and Tom Brady after 4 games where he has scored 1, 3 yard TD pass.

Got it.

Which side of this debate is delusional again?

acehole

11-23-2007, 09:19 AM

Most scouting reports say he has a good NFL caliber arm with good mobility. They say he needs to work more on his longball accuracy. That's why I think it is ridiculous when some people on here paint him as a slow QB with a weak arm.

Long ball accuracy is directly related to having a wear arm.
Why is that a mystery to you?

Owen DeBoard

11-23-2007, 09:19 AM

[
Defenses are too smart these days for that gunslinger bull****.[/quote]
I dont know about that Brett Farve looks pretty dang good.

hydro

11-23-2007, 09:26 AM

[
Defenses are too smart these days for that gunslinger bull****. I dont know about that Brett Farve looks pretty dang good.[/quote]

And we will never see a gunslinger as good as him ever again. He is the only QB that i have ever seen make it work.

mchurchfie

11-23-2007, 09:26 AM

Long ball accuracy is directly related to having a wear arm.
Why is that a mystery to you?
That's total bull****.

mchurchfie

11-23-2007, 09:28 AM

[
Defenses are too smart these days for that gunslinger bull****.
I dont know about that Brett Farve looks pretty dang good.[/QUOTE]
Farve does a lot more dinking and dunking than people realize, that's his success to having so many longball opportunities.

LtBillsFan66

11-23-2007, 09:28 AM

Most scouting reports say he has a good NFL caliber arm with good mobility. They say he needs to work more on his longball accuracy. That's why I think it is ridiculous when some people on here paint him as a slow QB with a weak arm.

Especially after just 3 games in his rookie season.

The Losman lovers still find excuses for JP after 4 years.

Owen DeBoard

11-23-2007, 09:31 AM

I dont know about that Brett Farve looks pretty dang good.
Farve does a lot more dinking and dunking than people realize, that's his success to having so many longball opportunities.[/quote]
Yeah and so does Brady.

Owen DeBoard

11-23-2007, 09:34 AM

I dont know about that Brett Farve looks pretty dang good.

And we will never see a gunslinger as good as him ever again. He is the only QB that i have ever seen make it work.[/quote]
You should know that Farve looks pretty dang good because I believe that they have the number one ranked passing offense and yes I dont think the league will ever see a player like Farve again.

patmoran2006

11-23-2007, 09:36 AM

Actually, I think the scouting reports on Edwards indicated he has a strong arm. I imagine that the dink and dunk stuff is mostly the coaching staff being conservative with him at this point in his career.

If he is going to be our QB for the long term, he'll need to have the ability to throw deep, which I think he has.
Holy ****.. Someone actually thinks that Edwards doesn't have a Holcomb-arm?

Perfectly said, Jan. Edwards' arm strength is just fine for this league.

mayotm

11-23-2007, 09:39 AM

Most young quarterbacks tend to check down a lot. They come from the college game where receivers are running through the secondary wide open. In the NFL, the coverage is much tighter. It takes time for most to trust what they are seeing and throw into much tighter spaces. Just because Edwards hasn't thrown many deep balls doesn't mean he can't. Edwards has looked more comfortable than most young QB's. However, I don't believe we've seen enough of him to make a sound judgement one way or the other. Since it's certainly looking like JP isn't the answer, I really hope Trent is the real deal.

Mr. Pink

11-23-2007, 09:42 AM

Long ball accuracy is directly related to having a wear arm.
Why is that a mystery to you?

Incorrect.

Michael Vick has a cannon with long bal accuracy problems. Hell accuracy problems in general.

justasportsfan

11-23-2007, 09:50 AM

He should be benched too for not following instructions. He's too busy trying dazzle everyone with his big arm and throws into triple coverage. Defenses are too smart these days for that gunslinger bull****.

you can say he's stupid or that he can't hit short passes. But to say he doesn't follow instructions is just another sad attempt for the haters to make him something he isn't. The first two games the coaches came out and ssaid he played well but the execution wasn't there. He is once again the starter after a bad game against the PAts. What the coaches say and do is the opposite of what you think goes on church. JP also stays in the pocket like he's been made to since Fairchild came onboard. Under Moolarkey he would take off ala Flutie. So once again, he does not refuse to do what he's told. THey just can't execute.

The only qb I know who refused to do what the coaches told him if he didn't see fit was Flutie.

justasportsfan

11-23-2007, 09:58 AM

Actually, I think the scouting reports on Edwards indicated he has a strong arm. I imagine that the dink and dunk stuff is mostly the coaching staff being conservative with him at this point in his career.

If he is going to be our QB for the long term, he'll need to have the ability to throw deep, which I think he has.
He does have an arm. If he refuses to use it then he will be tagged as another Rob Johnson. I'd like to see him go for it more often once he starts when we're no longer in the race. THen and only then will I give him a pass for INT's because he's learning to use it.

HHURRICANE

11-23-2007, 10:00 AM

After 3 games in the NFL, as a rookie, I would have expected more, like a Super Bowl birth already.

The "dink and dunk" is the product of a rookie that is being coached to watch his mistakes.

For the Losman "lickers" it's the last desperate shot at trying to keep their boy on the field.

Enjoy, because if Jauron has any nuts this should be JP's last game as a starter.

Philagape

11-23-2007, 10:18 AM

Yea..ok so now he has been compared to Montana and Tom Brady after 4 games where he has scored 1, 3 yard TD pass.

Only their styles.

Just like Favre was mentioned as a gunslinger example.

Keep it related to the post you're responding to. ~CG

Ickybaluky

11-23-2007, 10:23 AM

Incorrect.

Michael Vick has a cannon with long bal accuracy problems. Hell accuracy problems in general.

Arm strength is the most overrated part of QB play. True, you have to have a strong arm, but an average NFL arm is good enough.

I've seen guys like Billy Joe Tolliver and Jay Schroeder who could throw the ball through a wall but not play QB worth a damn.

I've seen guys like Steve Young and Jeff Garcia who could barely throw the ball 50 yards through the air, but who could play the position.

There are different kinds of QB with different skills, and arm strength is just one factor in the equation.

You should know that Farve looks pretty dang good because I believe that they have the number one ranked passing offense

2nd.

HHURRICANE

11-23-2007, 10:28 AM

Arm strength is the most overrated part of QB play. True, you have to have a strong arm, but an average NFL arm is good enough.

I've seen guys like Billy Joe Tolliver and Jay Schroeder who could throw the ball through a wall but not play QB worth a damn.

I've seen guys like Steve Young and Jeff Garcia who could barely throw the ball 50 yards through the air, but who could play the position.

There are different kinds of QB with different skills, and arm strength is just one factor in the equation.

2nd.

This is too logical for this board.

If you complete alot of balls underneath and move the chains you are a "dink and dunk" QB.

If you throw the ball really far, leaving it up for grabs, while ignoring everything underneath you "give us the best chance to win".

Mr. Pink

11-23-2007, 10:37 AM

Arm strength is the most overrated part of QB play. True, you have to have a strong arm, but an average NFL arm is good enough.

I've seen guys like Billy Joe Tolliver and Jay Schroeder who could throw the ball through a wall but not play QB worth a damn.

I've seen guys like Steve Young and Jeff Garcia who could barely throw the ball 50 yards through the air, but who could play the position.

There are different kinds of QB with different skills, and arm strength is just one factor in the equation.

.

Exactly. Precisely. 100% correct. Dead nuts. Accurate. Brilliant!

Cntrygal

11-23-2007, 10:41 AM

NE - great post. :up:

:tap:

ATTENTION: "You know who you are". The veiled namecalling/attacking is getting very old and I won't be editing it out of your posts. I'll move any offending posts into one of the "trash" threads into the smack zone - which would be a shame.... because mixed in with alot of the juvenile *****ing are some GREAT points. So please take a deep breath before hitting that "reply" button.

This announcement goes towards all threads in the main forum. Thank you.

raphael120

11-23-2007, 11:00 AM

Tom Brady is not known for his "big arm", he's known for his pocket awareness, good decision making, and precision. THAT **** wins Superbowls.

mchurchfie

11-23-2007, 11:04 AM

you can say he's stupid or that he can't hit short passes. But to say he doesn't follow instructions is just another sad attempt for the haters to make him something he isn't. The first two games the coaches came out and ssaid he played well but the execution wasn't there. He is once again the starter after a bad game against the PAts. What the coaches say and do is the opposite of what you think goes on church. JP also stays in the pocket like he's been made to since Fairchild came onboard. Under Moolarkey he would take off ala Flutie. So once again, he does not refuse to do what he's told. THey just can't execute.

The only qb I know who refused to do what the coaches told him if he didn't see fit was Flutie.
If the short passes are sitting right in front of you and you are trying to fit into double and triple coverage to get the long ball to Evans or if you sit back there all day in the pocket waiting for the longball and end up taking a needless sack then either you are extemely ignorant or you have decided to do things your way. I don't think he is as ******ed as he is hardheaded about conforming to the system. Him and Bledsoe are two peas in a pod. BTW, there isn't any hating going on we're just sick of seeing the same sad act week in and week out. Time to move on.

Typ0

11-23-2007, 11:14 AM

If the short passes are sitting right in front of you and you are trying to fit into double and triple coverage to get the long ball to Evans or if you sit back there all day in the pocket waiting for the longball and end up taking a needless sack then either you are extemely ignorant or you have decided to do things your way. I don't think he is as ******ed as he is hardheaded about conforming to the system. Him and Bledsoe are two peas in a pod. BTW, there isn't any hating going on we're just sick of seeing the same sad act week in and week out. Time to move on.

I don't think what you are saying is the case with JP. I think he just won't slow down. Since the QB is the one making the decisions his speed is going to dictate everything and he doesn't slow down and rushes to get to the end result. If he would relax the defense would have to react and he's be executing better because he's properly taking everything in. Instead, he is haphazard and in a rush to get things done which denies parts of the game we should be playing and gives the defense more opportunities.

11-23-2007, 11:47 AM

Tom Brady is not known for his "big arm", he's known for his pocket awareness, good decision making, and precision. THAT **** wins Superbowls.
Weird, if you would have put Edwards name in there, I would have agreed too! Lol.

THE END OF ALL DAYS

11-23-2007, 01:09 PM

Long ball accuracy is directly related to having a wear arm.
Why is that a mystery to you?

Yeah, well you know those wear arms are tough to come by. Usually they come on a wearwolf, but sometimes you find them on wearQBs in cold wearther cities.

I'm just sayin'......

I'm just goofing with you :)

acehole

11-23-2007, 01:17 PM

acehole

11-23-2007, 01:30 PM

Respectful and well writen as usual. But Chad and kelly and the rest will be foot notes to Elway, farve, and Manning AKA Gunslingers.

Average/weak arms get you 8 in the box and blitzes and injuries. Sure there are exceptions...Dilfer and others. Brady and Farve and Manning and Elway and Big ben are all canon arms qb's who garner respect from safties. This opens up those team running games which lead to guess what Time of Poss.
If you are a one trick pony and your one trick is taken away you are just an ass.

PS Montana was not know for his dink dunk...but for his long ball and cool pocket awarness.

Arm strength is the most overrated part of QB play. True, you have to have a strong arm, but an average NFL arm is good enough.

I've seen guys like Billy Joe Tolliver and Jay Schroeder who could throw the ball through a wall but not play QB worth a damn.

I've seen guys like Steve Young and Jeff Garcia who could barely throw the ball 50 yards through the air, but who could play the position.

There are different kinds of QB with different skills, and arm strength is just one factor in the equation.

2nd.

acehole

11-23-2007, 01:31 PM

Yeah, well you know those wear arms are tough to come by. Usually they come on a wearwolf, but sometimes you find them on wearQBs in cold wearther cities.

I'm just sayin'......

I'm just goofing with you :)

haaaha I will never be know for my spelling...only terrific ability to argue...

Philagape

11-23-2007, 01:33 PM

If you're going to be a gunslinger, you better be as good as Favre and Manning and Elway. Same goes for the other end of the spectrum. Whatever a QB's style is, he's gotta be good and smart.

acehole

11-23-2007, 01:34 PM

Tom Brady is not known for his "big arm", he's known for his pocket awareness, good decision making, and precision. THAT **** wins Superbowls.

Tom brady has a canon you are very wrong.

Tom Brady has a much better arm the Trend you will have to agree......

mchurchfie

11-23-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by acehole
Long ball accuracy is directly related to having a wear arm.
Why is that a mystery to you?
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
That's total bull****.

Do you have a piont? or just say it is bull ..what is bull about it?


You brought up the point, you prove what you're saying has any credence. Common sense says that isn't neccasarily true. My point is that if you are trying say TE has a weak arm because he has trouble with accuracy then you are dead wrong. I'll be happy to show you many links with many experts assessments on his arm and they say anything but that. How about a few links to back up your statement?

mchurchfie

11-23-2007, 02:14 PM

Tom brady has a canon you are very wrong.

Tom Brady has a much better arm the Trend you will have to agree......
That's the first time I ever heard anyone say Brady has a cannon for an arm.

Philagape

11-23-2007, 02:24 PM

JP's accuracy on long balls has been terrible this year. Every time. The two that have connected have been because of an adjustment by the receiver.

acehole

11-23-2007, 02:30 PM

You brought up the point, you prove what you're saying has any credence. Common sense says that isn't neccasarily true. My point is that if you are trying say TE has a weak arm because he has trouble with accuracy then you are dead wrong. I'll be happy to show you many links with many experts assessments on his arm and they say anything but that. How about a few links to back up your statement?

You spell as good as I do.
What would be a reason for long ball inacuracy?
If you are throwing punt and wobbly duck you are going to get picked.

IE look at any of Trend 5 int's and just look at the quality and volicity of those picks. They were all pretty long passes. I dont think I am dead wrong.
Some of you guys need to ask you moms for the tivo..

Philagape

11-23-2007, 02:43 PM

If you are throwing punt and wobbly duck you are going to get picked.

Like JP against Miami and Cincy?

IE look at any of Trend 5 int's and just look at the quality and volicity of those picks. They were all pretty long passes. I dont think I am dead wrong.
Some of you guys need to ask you moms for the tivo..

Edwards' picks:
1-10 range: 2
11-20 range: 1
21-30 range : 1
31-40 range: 1
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=10536

"They were all pretty long passes," except for the majority of them that weren't. Yes, you are dead wrong. :doh:
Never in the history of this board have I seen posts that proclaim themselves so loudly to be right and others wrong, when in fact the embarrassing opposite is true. That's just astounding, the audacity of it. I mean, seriously, holy mother of crap.

mchurchfie

11-23-2007, 02:54 PM

You spell as good as I do.
What would be a reason for long ball inacuracy?
If you are throwing punt and wobbly duck you are going to get picked.

IE look at any of Trend 5 int's and just look at the quality and volicity of those picks. They were all pretty long passes. I dont think I am dead wrong.
Some of you guys need to ask you moms for the tivo..
And your momma needs give you a timeout on the computer. There are a multitude of reasons for being inaccurate. It has already been verifyed and documented that he has a more than strong enough arm for the NFL so this is all a moot point anyways. Thanks for playing though, class dismissed.:bigwave:

raphael120

11-23-2007, 03:04 PM

The thing I love the best about Losman supporters is that they believe JP hasn't had a fair shot and a long enough time to prove himself, then in the same breath they say Edwards through 3 games has shown enough reasons why he shouldnt start.

Uhhhhh...

shelby

11-23-2007, 03:25 PM

shelby

11-23-2007, 03:27 PM

i posted this in another thread, but it's appropriate here as well:

Re: Who thinks were going to win this week? [/URL][URL="http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?do=post_groan_add&p=2212181"] (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=2212181)

<HR style="COLOR: #f3f3ff" SIZE=1>Jim Kelly's take on the situation:
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">It's important for everybody, not just J.P. Losmanhttp://www.buffalobills.com/images/relatedicon.gif (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=5605#), to bounce back and play well this weekend against Jacksonville. The Bills need to figure out how they can score points and stop people again on defense. The Jaguars are a tough team and this will be another tough match up. J.P. needs to be at the top of his game if Marshawn Lynchhttp://www.buffalobills.com/images/relatedicon.gif (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=5605#) is not in the lineup. As the quarterback, J.P. must not only be able to pick up the slack on offense but he must show his leadership ability throughout the course of the week. It's not always what you say to your teammates, but it's how you say it and J.P. will need to show he can be the leader that the coaches, fans and players were hoping for at the beginning of the season. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

full story (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=5605)

mchurchfie

11-23-2007, 03:28 PM

How bout dem Sabres!:whistle:

Philagape

11-23-2007, 03:28 PM

i think, honestly, there are very few people left who blindly support JP. Most of us realize he is not going to be with us next year, that he can't get it done.

There are a few who still want JP to be the starter, and they are very vocal about it on the boards. So these threads, and the arguments, continue.

Every thread i read lately turns into a JP bashing thread. People post the same garbage over and over. i wish we could find something new to discuss.

I'm over it pretty much ... I accept the team's decision even if I disagree because it doesn't make much difference anyway.

But when I see posts like that one above .... oh boy .... what a disgrace.

shelby

11-23-2007, 03:31 PM

i understand your frustration. i, too, am frustrated by some of the garbage that's being posted these days.

:gobills:

feldspar

11-23-2007, 04:30 PM

Accuracy on the short and intermediate passes is a lot more important than being great at throwing the deep ball. Deep passes can keep a defense honest to a certain degree, but they only account for a very small percentage of pass attempts.

Edwards is very accurate on the short to intermediate passes. As far as I can remember, Edwards has only attempted two long balls - one was caught by Evans...the other was to Roscoe and drew a pass interference call.

Brady only threw 6 passes of 40 yards or more in 2001...you know, the year the Pats won their first Superbowl. I don't know, but I have to assume that some of those 40+ yard passes were due to yards after the catch, and weren't thrown 110 yards in the air. So this thread makes a great point.

*Notice how I didn't mention JP at all...

acehole

11-23-2007, 06:12 PM

Those are all considered long passes for Trent yes.

Like JP against Miami and Cincy?

Edwards' picks:
1-10 range: 2
11-20 range: 1
21-30 range : 1
31-40 range: 1
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=10536

"They were all pretty long passes," except for the majority of them that weren't. Yes, you are dead wrong. :doh:
Never in the history of this board have I seen posts that proclaim themselves so loudly to be right and others wrong, when in fact the embarrassing opposite is true. That's just astounding, the audacity of it. I mean, seriously, holy mother of crap.

hydro

11-23-2007, 06:16 PM

Those are all considered long passes for Trent yes.

LOL! I would say over 20 yards is a "long pass". 3/5 of this picks were less than that. So no, they aren't all considered long passes.

acehole

11-23-2007, 06:17 PM

And your momma needs give you a timeout on the computer. There are a multitude of reasons for being inaccurate. It has already been verifyed and documented that he has a more than strong enough arm for the NFL so this is all a moot point anyways. Thanks for playing though, class dismissed.:bigwave:

I would like to see this so call verfication by whom?...after 4 games?

Yes...does that document say 5 int's and 1 Td?

acehole

11-23-2007, 06:19 PM

LOL! I would say over 20 yards is a "long pass". 3/5 of this picks were less than that. So no, they aren't all considered long passes.

OK so that proves he cant throw the short ball accuratly either.

DraftBoy

11-23-2007, 06:21 PM

I would like to see this so call verfication by whom?...

Jeff George
Micheal Vick

acehole

11-23-2007, 06:21 PM

This was/is my whole argument.

The whole team has to play well to win...not just JP.

i posted this in another thread, but it's appropriate here as well:

Re: Who thinks were going to win this week? 

<HR style="COLOR: #f3f3ff" SIZE=1>Jim Kelly's take on the situation:
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">It's important for everybody, not just J.P. Losmanhttp://www.buffalobills.com/images/relatedicon.gif (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=5605#), to bounce back and play well this weekend against Jacksonville. The Bills need to figure out how they can score points and stop people again on defense. The Jaguars are a tough team and this will be another tough match up. J.P. needs to be at the top of his game if Marshawn Lynchhttp://www.buffalobills.com/images/relatedicon.gif (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=5605#) is not in the lineup. As the quarterback, J.P. must not only be able to pick up the slack on offense but he must show his leadership ability throughout the course of the week. It's not always what you say to your teammates, but it's how you say it and J.P. will need to show he can be the leader that the coaches, fans and players were hoping for at the beginning of the season. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

full story (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=5605)

DraftBoy

11-23-2007, 06:22 PM

Btw this whole argument is pointless bc neither QB we have on the roster is going to every be a consistent top 10-15 QB in the NFL. Plenty of good prospects in 2008 to choose from though!

acehole

11-23-2007, 06:31 PM

Well phil if your 2 out of only like 4 of your throws over 20 yards gets picked what does that tell you?

It tells you what the draft guides do...
he has an inacuracy problem on the long ball.

And anway we have to recalibrate what a long pass is for Trend as he has the arm of an 11 year old.

If your only purpose in life is to discredit me instead of coming up with an interesting thought or idea you have a sad life. Try posting a thought instead of stalking me.

Like JP against Miami and Cincy?

Edwards' picks:
1-10 range: 2
11-20 range: 1
21-30 range : 1
31-40 range: 1
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=10536

"They were all pretty long passes," except for the majority of them that weren't. Yes, you are dead wrong. :doh:
Never in the history of this board have I seen posts that proclaim themselves so loudly to be right and others wrong, when in fact the embarrassing opposite is true. That's just astounding, the audacity of it. I mean, seriously, holy mother of crap.

acehole

11-23-2007, 06:33 PM

Btw this whole argument is pointless bc neither QB we have on the roster is going to every be a consistent top 10-15 QB in the NFL. Plenty of good prospects in 2008 to choose from though!

Cant wait..

Hey draft boy I think D Anderson is a free agent
what do you think of him in this system?

acehole

11-23-2007, 06:35 PM

Jeff George
Micheal Vick

You lost me draftboy?

He said there is documented proof Trend can throw the long ball in the NFL.

I want to see these court papers!

acehole

11-23-2007, 06:40 PM

You are correct and the other 2 where picked off ...so if 1 of your long balls are complete one incomplete and 2 get picked off what does that tell you?

And yes Brady = Edwards because Edwards and he both did not throw long passes in thier first years. Got it great piont.

Accuracy on the short and intermediate passes is a lot more important than being great at throwing the deep ball. Deep passes can keep a defense honest to a certain degree, but they only account for a very small percentage of pass attempts.

Edwards is very accurate on the short to intermediate passes. As far as I can remember, Edwards has only attempted two long balls - one was caught by Evans...the other was to Roscoe and drew a pass interference call.

Brady only threw 6 passes of 40 yards or more in 2001...you know, the year the Pats won their first Superbowl. I don't know, but I have to assume that some of those 40+ yard passes were due to yards after the catch, and weren't thrown 110 yards in the air. So this thread makes a great point.

*Notice how I didn't mention JP at all...

Michael82

11-23-2007, 06:41 PM

Michael82

11-23-2007, 06:43 PM

This is his stats from his first season as a starter....

http://www.nfl.com/players/tombrady/gamelogs?id=BRA371156&season=2001

hydro

11-23-2007, 06:47 PM

acehole

11-23-2007, 06:53 PM

There was no comparison of talent. Only of arm strength :D:

Brady has a stronger arm then Edwards...so either way
it is a weak argument.

acehole

11-23-2007, 06:58 PM

John Doe

11-23-2007, 07:27 PM

For what it's worth, Brady only appeared in 1 game during his rookie year and threw all of 3 passes.

During his second year he appeared in 15 games and threw 12 picks/18 TDs.

acehole

11-23-2007, 07:36 PM

For what it's worth, Brady only appeared in 1 game during his rookie year and threw all of 3 passes.

During his second year he appeared in 15 games and threw 12 picks/18 TDs.

Ok but in his second year (First year starter) through 6 games is accurate right? So there you go.

Good news is he had more TD's then INt's so the comparing the 2 is not accurate on any real level.

John Doe

11-23-2007, 07:41 PM

Ok but in his second year (First year starter) through 6 games is accurate right? So there you go.

Good news is he had more TD's then INt's so the comparing the 2 is not accurate on any real level.

It is hard to compare a raw rookie thrown into the breech to a second year player who had a full year to acclimate himself to the league and his team's offense.

Plus, Brady had the advantage of playing on a superbowl caliber team.

YardRat

11-23-2007, 07:43 PM

Neither Edwards or Losman should really be compared to anybody else except each other...They are the only one's on our team, and all the others aren't so the point is moot.

It doesn't matter which one lines up under center this Sunday...neither one is Brady, Montana, etc.

acehole

11-23-2007, 07:55 PM

i understand your frustration. i, too, am frustrated by some of the garbage that's being posted these days.

:gobills:

I agree shelby....I mean they blame qb for everything that goes wrong...

Constant bashing...

Every artical is posted that said look...
He thinks this guy sucks when it does not say that at all.

Talk about garbage I agree.

How about those pesky facts that are called lies
when they dont back your silly assertions?

How about that holding the QB totaly
accountable for all wins and losses stuff we hear?

Offensive line...nope doesnt mater to qb debate.

RB nope dont need umm for a great offense.

Weapons? Naa qb needs to make plays with or with out them.

Defense cant stop the run or the pass....it is the QB's fault you see because he had a new haircut. Those are the posts that add so much qaulity the Bills talk.

Trend = Montanna = Brady...now that is great posting.

Did you know both Farve and Trend were both born in USA?

You know what that means dont ya?

The rest of those posts...garbage.

Tearing down sombody elses posts when you dont
have an original thought in your sagittal crest ...that is
great for the boards also.

hydro

11-23-2007, 07:58 PM

Brady has a stronger arm then Edwards...so either way
it is a weak argument.

Boy you are a laugh riot! Are you a NFL scout?

acehole

11-23-2007, 07:59 PM

Plus, Brady had the advantage of playing on a superbowl caliber team.

John careful what you say. Some say the team around the QB does not factor in when looking at a QB's play. You will be called stupid and a lier.

But I agree comparisions that are being made are
stretches and dont have real merrit. They are meant
to prove pionts that arent there.

YardRat

11-23-2007, 08:00 PM

I agree shelby....I mean they blame qb for everything that goes wrong...

Constant bashing...

Every artical is posted that said look...
He thinks this guy sucks when it does not say that at all.

Talk about garbage I agree.

How about those pesky facts that are called lies
when they dont back your silly assertions?

How about that holding the QB totaly
accountable for all wins and losses stuff we hear?

Offensive line...nope doesnt mater to qb debate.

RB nope dont need umm for a great offense.

Weapons? Naa qb needs to make plays with or with out them.

Defense cant stop the run or the pass....it is the QB's fault you see because he had a new haircut. Those are the posts that add so much qaulity the Bills talk.

Trend = Montanna = Brady...now that is great posting.

Did you know both Farve and Trend were both born in USA?

You know what that means dont ya?

The rest of those posts...garbage.

Tearing down sombody elses posts when you dont
have an original thought in your sagittal crest ...that is
great for the boards also.

That works both ways. There are just as many JP's antagonists on these boards as there are Trent's.

acehole

11-23-2007, 08:01 PM

Boy you are a laugh riot! Are you a NFL scout?

Hydo? Please? Do I really have to back that one up?

Brady has a stronger arm then Edwards I promise.

hydro

11-23-2007, 08:05 PM

Hydo? Please? Do I really have to back that one up?

Brady has a stronger arm then Edwards I promise.
Yeah, well unless you can prove your a NFL scout i would like to see some evidence that backs up Trent not having a good arm. You show anyone some proof and they will shutup about it.

camelcowboy

11-23-2007, 08:08 PM

Just for the record, before any of you even think about comparing Trent Edwards to Tom Brady, which is extremely laughable....:rofl: Brady didn't even throw his first interception in the league until his 6th ****ing game. and he threw 5 TDs before that. Trent Edwards has already thrown 5 interceptions and only 1 TD. :yawn: I do agree comparing Edwards to brady makes about as much sense as saying JP gives us the best chance to win. Brady is a hall of fame qb edwards has played 5 games. I don't care what any of you people say he's played very well for ROOKIE, but there is no comparison to brady. JP has reached his ceiling with this team. If we lose against Jacksonville we need to play trent for the rest of the year to see if he has the potential to be the qb this team needs, or if we need to draft one. JP is not going to get any better, and if we lose to jacksonville kiss the wild card good bye. Trent needs to play and this strong arm crap needs to stop, just because he hasn't gone deep doesn't mean he can't.

camelcowboy

11-23-2007, 08:15 PM

John careful what you say. Some say the team around the QB does not factor in when looking at a QB's play. You will be called stupid and a lier.

But I agree comparisions that are being made are
stretches and dont have real merrit. They are meant
to prove pionts that arent there. JP going three and out and throwing picks, and taking sacks has a effect on how the team plays. I agree he can't be blamed for everything, but he needs to be held accountable for poor play. The team played bad, but he has played awful. He's been no better then edwards.

acehole

11-23-2007, 08:26 PM

Yeah, well unless you can prove your a NFL scout i would like to see some evidence that backs up Trent not having a good arm. You show anyone some proof and they will shutup about it.

Dont have to prove a thing..

If you really need proof of this it says more about you then me.

camelcowboy

11-23-2007, 08:27 PM

Dont have to prove a thing..

If you really need proof of this it says more about you then me. Edwards has to prove it but he has done nothing to show he can't throw the long ball.

hydro

11-23-2007, 08:27 PM

I still don't think i have heard a plausable agruement for why JP has the tendency to throw 1/4 of his passes to the ground or over WR's heads.

Philagape

11-23-2007, 08:37 PM

I still don't think i have heard a plausable agruement for why JP has the tendency to throw 1/4 of his passes to the ground or over WR's heads.

It's Aaron Schobel's fault. Or Dwayne Wright.

acehole

11-23-2007, 08:39 PM

JP going three and out and throwing picks, and taking sacks has a effect on how the team plays. I agree he can't be blamed for everything, but he needs to be held accountable for poor play. The team played bad, but he has played awful. He's been no better then edwards.

Accountable for poor play yes.

Ravens game come to mind.

He has been no better... isnt a ringing endorsment either.

It is my opinion that qb and team play can go hand in hand and often do.

Can I ask a serous question of you?

If a RB or Tight end missed thier guy on a block...
are you putting that on the QB when he is sacked by
the guy they missed?

When the RB cant get get 2 yards on first down
with a 75 million dollar O line is that the QB? The
Offensive line or RB? 3rd and long with 2 run plays
on 1 or 2nd down? JP played awful at NE for that he
is accountable.....no slack at all is awfull as well.

camelcowboy

11-23-2007, 08:48 PM

I still don't think i have heard a plausable agruement for why JP has the tendency to throw 1/4 of his passes to the ground or over WR's heads. i haven't heard any plausable arguements about why JP should still be the #1. Just this crap about he gives us the best chance to win, which is not true. The team was winning under edwards as well.

acehole

11-23-2007, 08:49 PM

I do agree comparing Edwards to brady makes about as much sense as saying JP gives us the best chance to win. Brady is a hall of fame qb edwards has played 5 games. I don't care what any of you people say he's played very well for ROOKIE, but there is no comparison to brady. JP has reached his ceiling with this team. If we lose against Jacksonville we need to play trent for the rest of the year to see if he has the potential to be the qb this team needs, or if we need to draft one. JP is not going to get any better, and if we lose to jacksonville kiss the wild card good bye. Trent needs to play and this strong arm crap needs to stop, just because he hasn't gone deep doesn't mean he can't.

Ok in one post you say that "JP giving us the best chance to win" doesnt make sense....and then you want to play trent on potential? Is he better or not? Can he throw the long ball? Who knows? He has played well for a rookie and will improve with time and practice and stregth conditioning no doubt. It is not a reach to say JP gives us the best chance to win when the Bills organization agrees. What doent make sense is to look the other way at facts....but I do agree..jp will probably not be here next year and I do agree if we are out of the playoff hunt they will give Trent the experience he needs...

acehole

11-23-2007, 08:51 PM

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by hydrosmak
I still don't think i have heard a plausable agruement for why JP has the tendency to throw 1/4 of his passes to the ground or over WR's heads.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Phil wrote.
It's Aaron Schobel's fault. Or Dwayne Wright.

Hydo link please.

Phil link please.

camelcowboy

11-23-2007, 08:55 PM

If a RB or Tight end missed thier guy on a block...
are you putting that on the QB when he is sacked by
the guy they missed?

When the RB cant get get 2 yards on first down
with a 75 million dollar O line is that the QB? The
Offensive line or RB? 3rd and long with 2 run plays
on 1 or 2nd down? JP played awful at NE for that he
is accountable.....no slack at all is awfull as well.

A couple of the sacks for New England i don't hold against JP, but he has those moments where he has time but he looks lost in the pocket after his first progression. It easy to tell a blown blocking assignment, my biggest issue with JP is that he's not comfortable in the pocket. He has happy feet, he doesn't step up most of the time and thats why his accuracy is so eratic.

acehole

11-23-2007, 09:02 PM

A couple of the sacks for New England i don't hold against JP, but he has those moments where he has time but he looks lost in the pocket after his first progression. It easy to tell a blown blocking assignment, my biggest issue with JP is that he's not comfortable in the pocket. He has happy feet, he doesn't step up most of the time and thats why his accuracy is so eratic.

I respect your opinion...I see it too.
Other times I dont..he looks good.

Did you think trent look comfortable at the (2nd)jets or Ravens game...honestly?

camelcowboy

11-23-2007, 09:08 PM

Ok in one post you say that "JP giving us the best chance to win" doesnt make sense....and then you want to play trent on potential? Is he better or not? Can he throw the long ball? Who knows? He has played well for a rookie and will improve with time and practice and stregth conditioning no doubt. It is not a reach to say JP gives us the best chance to win when the Bills organization agrees. What doent make sense is to look the other way at facts....but I do agree..jp will probably not be here next year and I do agree if we are out of the playoff hunt they will give Trent the experience he needs... If the team losing with edwards in i would agree with you that i was just using the potential arguement, but Trent has play well enough to win. Honestly if you look at their best games Trent against the Jets, and JP against the bengals their stats are very simular. If you look at their other games they both have had 150 no tds one pick games. I haven't seen a huge improvement with the offense with JP. So i can't imagine there being much of a drop off. Playing edward didn't hurt the bills when they started winning i just think they should play him if JP doesn't get the job done this week. Edwards should play out the year. To your second point, i don't think the bills feel that playing JP is their best chance of winning, i think they feel its the best way to keep their locker room happy.

camelcowboy

11-23-2007, 09:14 PM

I respect your opinion...I see it too.
Other times I dont..he looks good.

Did you think trent look comfortable at the (2nd)jets or Ravens game...honestly? I respect yours as well.

Ravens game i thought he looked good, the jets game was his worse as a starter but even that said the first drive of that game he led the team to the redzone just to have the coaching staff call a shovel pass on 3rd down. The rest of that game he was being hit with the corner blitz. Jets was a bad game.

acehole

11-23-2007, 09:24 PM

I respect yours as well.

Ravens game i thought he looked good, the jets game was his worse as a starter but even that said the first drive of that game he led the team to the redzone just to have the coaching staff call a shovel pass on 3rd down. The rest of that game he was being hit with the corner blitz. Jets was a bad game.

I was there that game that drive took an hour it was good drive.
Later on he looked alot like what you JP does lost and such....
When the QB is comfortable good things can happen....
I just dont think Edwards has played as good as people say.
..to warrent a starting job (yet)... and I dont think JP has
been as bad ..to lose it...NE game not withstanding.

TigerJ

11-24-2007, 09:51 AM

Just saying!

That's true. When we talked smack with Patriot fans, we put Brady in the same category as Pennington, a noodle armed west coast guy. I guess there's hope for Trent Edwards, isn't there. LOL Seriously, we know Edwards has a good if not great arm, and can make all the throws. I think he needs to gain the confidence to throw it into coverage when the situation calls for it. It's good to check down some of the time, but sometimes you also have to take your shots.

mchurchfie

11-24-2007, 12:35 PM

I would like to see this so call verfication by whom?...after 4 games?

Yes...does that document say 5 int's and 1 Td?
It was verified before he even threw a pass in the NFL. That's why they have scouting combines.:whistle: Google any predraft report on him and they say he has a more than adequate enough arm for the NFL. Here you go http://www.warroomreport.com/draft/rankings/qb/edwards.htm
http://condraft.com/database/archives/2007/pacific-10/stanford/trent-edwards/index.html

im4bflo

11-24-2007, 06:26 PM

Brady can dunk for dinker. :nuk:

feldspar

11-24-2007, 06:27 PM

You are correct and the other 2 where picked off ...so if 1 of your long balls are complete one incomplete and 2 get picked off what does that tell you?

And yes Brady = Edwards because Edwards and he both did not throw long passes in thier first years. Got it great piont.

That tells me that you consider this proof that Edwards is incapable of throwing the long ball.

It tells me that at least half of his attempted long balls were catchable by his receiver. What percentage of long balls that are attempted are actually completed? Definately less than half.

And who exactly said Brady = Edwards?

Your argument = a strawman argument.

You totally don't get the point, which is that the long ball isn't as important as being efficient with the short and intermediate passes. Reading a defense and going through your reads while staying calm in the pocket and moving the chains is more important than being a home-run hitter. If you keep trying to hit the home run at the expense of hitting the ball at all, you are going to strike out a lot - that's not the way to help your baseball...I mean, football team.

Tom Brady was only used as an example to illustrate the point. Nobody called Edwards Brady's equal; that's ridiculous. My whole discussion was about a certain style of play. If you want to read something else into it, good luck with that.

edited for TOS.

YardRat

11-24-2007, 06:39 PM

Accountable for poor play yes.

Ravens game come to mind.

He has been no better... isnt a ringing endorsment either.

It may not be a ringing endorsement for a rookie, early on in his first season, to play as well as a four year vet, but it sure is an indictment of the guy who's been in the league a few years.

If a RB or Tight end missed thier guy on a block...
are you putting that on the QB when he is sacked by
the guy they missed?

Not all sacks are on the o-line, or on the QB...if a guy whiffs he whiffs. In Losman's case he's so 'mobile' the fans have the right to expect his physical talents to overcome at least some mistakes by others every once in awhile.

When the RB cant get get 2 yards on first down
with a 75 million dollar O line is that the QB?

Did the QB check into that particular play in error or fail to check out of it after reading the defense improperly?

3rd and long with 2 run plays
on 1 or 2nd down? JP played awful at NE for that he
is accountable.....no slack at all is awfull as well.

Again...Reading defenses at the line of scrimmage and putting the offense in the play that gives the best chance for success is part of the QB's responsibility. Is he just running the first play the OC calls in without checking off to his audibles at the line? Is he incapable of getting the team out of a bad play and into a good one?

The coaches can only do so much from the sidelines. The game is called, and controlled, by the players on the field in the end.

acehole

11-24-2007, 07:14 PM

Not once anywhere did I say Trent Edwards is incapable of the long ball.

Pay attention.

Just not very good at it...or not his stregth.
Both of those assesements come from scouts
and his NFL career up until this piont. Any other
opinion would be based on a fantasy.

On the other piont.
When Trend has an incomplete pass is was the recievers fault.
When JP has an incomplete pass is is JP fault.

Got it.

During the Bills game Tasker said JP can make every throw on the field.
I believe all of the passes are important....not just the short ones..if you
want to keep deffense honest. I am not the only one who holds this opinion.
I dont care what you call me..it doent change reality...the whole piont of the thread was to compare there styles. I dont agree that brady is a dink and dunker...sorry...hits the bomb with a much high rate then the golden boy through about the same games..so the comparison was a weak one. Trend has 5 int's to one TD and Brady had 5 td to one in that time. The whole thread is silly and comparision that some are trying to make is a stretch.

That tells me that you consider this proof that Edwards is incapable of throwing the long ball.

It tells me that at least half of his attempted long balls were catchable by his receiver. What percentage of long balls that are attempted are actually completed? Definately less than half.

And who exactly said Brady = Edwards?

Your argument = a strawman argument.

You totally don't get the point, which is that the long ball isn't as important as being efficient with the short and intermediate passes. Reading a defense and going through your reads while staying calm in the pocket and moving the chains is more important than being a home-run hitter. If you keep trying to hit the home run at the expense of hitting the ball at all, you are going to strike out a lot - that's not the way to help your baseball...I mean, football team.

Tom Brady was only used as an example to illustrate the point. Nobody called Edwards Brady's equal; that's ridiculous. My whole discussion was about a certain style of play. If you want to read something else into it, good luck with that.

hydro

11-24-2007, 07:27 PM

Here are four different pre draft scouting reports of Trent. They all state that he has a better than average arm and can make all the throws. How can you deny it?

http://www.warroomreport.com/draft/rankings/qb/edwards.htm
http://www.mymockdraft.com/725/PlayerDetail.aspx
http://www.draft.com/modules/wfchannel/index.php?pagenum=390
http://nfldraft.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?Player=7512#scouting

YardRat

11-24-2007, 07:34 PM

Not once anywhere did I say Trent Edwards is incapable of the long ball.

Pay attention.

Just not very good at it...or not his stregth.
Both of those assesements come from scouts
and his NFL career up until this piont. Any other
opinion would be based on a fantasy.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?Prospect_ID=468

He is very strong all-around, and his arm is better than average. He can throw the deep ball well and can really put some zip in short-to-intermediate ranged throws.

http://www.mymockdraft.com/725/PlayerDetail.aspx

Arm strength is more than adequate and he can make all the throws

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/players/93189

A good athlete with fine mobility and a solid arm.

http://condraft.com/database/archives/2007/pacific-10/stanford/trent-edwards/index.html

Has a very strong arm and accurate. Good footwork and has great zip on his throws.

http://ffcollective.com/article?id=1158&title=Rookie%20Analysis%3A%20QB%20Trent%20Edwards%2C%20%2392%20Overall%20Pick%2C%20Buffalo%20Bills

He has a strong arm, good pocket presence and accuracy

acehole

11-24-2007, 10:23 PM

A Trend Edward supporter told me that a scout said inaccurate on his deep balls not that he can throw far. More accurate in the short game. That was the whole piont of this vain of threads.

There is a difference.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?Prospect_ID=468

He is very strong all-around, and his arm is better than average. He can throw the deep ball well and can really put some zip in short-to-intermediate ranged throws.

http://www.mymockdraft.com/725/PlayerDetail.aspx

Arm strength is more than adequate and he can make all the throws

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/players/93189

A good athlete with fine mobility and a solid arm.

http://condraft.com/database/archives/2007/pacific-10/stanford/trent-edwards/index.html

Has a very strong arm and accurate. Good footwork and has great zip on his throws.

http://ffcollective.com/article?id=1158&title=Rookie%20Analysis%3A%20QB%20Trent%20Edwards%2C%20%2392%20Overall%20Pick%2C%20Buffalo%20Bills

He has a strong arm, good pocket presence and accuracy

acehole

11-24-2007, 10:35 PM

THEY SAY(read below) YARDRAT.....from a scout bieng posted by a trend suporter.

This is what I was responding to...

"THEY SAY HE NEEDs TO WORK ON HIS LONG BALL ACCURACY."

They, not me....

I AGREED.

No need for your links.

Are you guys now going to argue he is know for his long ball and accuracy/ability to be a gunslinger?

Go plead your case to the coaching staff not me...there the ones that benched him. I am not saying most of the things you people try to say
I am saying. Sheesh.

Most scouting reports say he has a good NFL caliber arm with good mobility. They say he needs to work more on his longball accuracy. That's why I think it is ridiculous when some people on here paint him as a slow QB with a weak arm.