John McCargo

[jamze132]

Some of us can't watch any games at all due to living locations, so can someone give us an update on how McCargo is playing and progressing this year? Thanks!

[Mahdi]

Some of us can't watch any games at all due to living locations, so can someone give us an update on how McCargo is playing and progressing this year? Thanks!
IMO McCargo has become our best DT. He still gets less reps than Tripplett but he is out-performing him especially against the run. He is consistently blowing up double-teams and gets into the backfield quickly. He doesnt always make the tackle when he knifes through but he still does a good job to re-route the RB allowing our LBs to make plays. If we get another consistent DT to play next to McCargo next year we might end up with one of the best DT combos in the NFL. I really think McCargo is that good. So much for Levy reaching into the first round!

[Tatonka]

mccargo has played much better this year than most people expected. many people around here labeled him a bust, injury proned, and worthless.

i think he has shown a huge amount of improvement and things are looking very good for his future.

[bigbub2352]

McCargo is definetly showing signs of a dminant force up the middle, he just needs some help because teams have taken notice, he plays hard every snap and has made quite a few plays in the backfeild, he is providing a decent pass rush and was a big part of Crowell saftey, all and all 100% better than last years IR year, and i think he can be a building block for our D for years to come

[Wys Guy]

Some of us can't watch any games at all due to living locations, so can someone give us an update on how McCargo is playing and progressing this year? Thanks!

Well, let's see, he's got one sack on the season as the sum total of all sacks for the entire DT corps, and that one came in the Denver game, not on a great play by McCargo, but on a broken play finding Cutler running around the backfield for like 15 seconds, yes really, before running right into McG's awaiting arms.

Otherwise he's logged no sacks in the other 11 weeks since week one.

According to NFL.com, he ranks 17th on the Bills in tackles, again, as a starting DT.

He's posted three games with more than 2 tackles.

So you can connect the dots. Some here will tell you how much better he is this year, but again, connect the dots. IMO this F7 does so little that when there is a big play everyone rejoices and it's like sitting in the middle of the desert thirsting to death, then having someone offer you a cup of water, and then proclaiming that that was the best drink of anything you've ever had. True perhaps, but it doesn't make water the most flavorful drink in the world.

McCargo has one season to kick it up about three notches or we can officially label him a bust. To date, he is a bust given that we utterly wasted two day-one picks on him. He is fully incapable of anchoring down one DT position F/T and the only reason why he's even as effective as he is is because he rotates continually keeping him relatively fresh. If not he'd be getting steamrolled on a regular basis. He makes the rare good play, but heck, so do most other players.

Those that say much more are merely deluding themselves as they do annually here just like they did with so many players before now. McGahee, Bledsoe, Vincent, Milloy, Bennie Anderson, Tucker, Kevin Everett, Craig Nall, Peerless Price, Chris Villarrial, Fowler, Losman, Edwards, ... Y-A-W-N!!! The list goes on, and on, and on, ...

[Wys Guy]

mccargo has played much better this year than most people expected. many people around here labeled him a bust, injury proned, and worthless.

i think he has shown a huge amount of improvement and things are looking very good for his future.

So then, "much better" than horrid translates to "not a bust?"

Well, OK.

How does he compare to above average DTs?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Well, let's see, he's got one sack on the season as the sum total of all sacks for the entire DT corps, and that one came in the Denver game, not on a great play by McCargo, but on a broken play finding Cutler running around the backfield for like 15 seconds, yes really, before running right into McG's awaiting arms.

Otherwise he's logged no sacks in the other 11 weeks since week one.

According to NFL.com, he ranks 17th on the Bills in tackles, again, as a starting DT.

He's posted three games with more than 2 tackles.

So you can connect the dots. Some here will tell you how much better he is this year, but again, connect the dots. IMO this F7 does so little that when there is a big play everyone rejoices and it's like sitting in the middle of the desert thirsting to death, then having someone offer you a cup of water, and then proclaiming that that was the best drink of anything you've ever had. True perhaps, but it doesn't make water the most flavorful drink in the world.

McCargo has one season to kick it up about three notches or we can officially label him a bust. To date, he is a bust given that we utterly wasted two day-one picks on him. He is fully incapable of anchoring down one DT position F/T and the only reason why he's even as effective as he is is because he rotates continually keeping him relatively fresh. If not he'd be getting steamrolled on a regular basis. He makes the rare good play, but heck, so do most other players.

Those that say much more are merely deluding themselves as they do annually here just like they did with so many players before now. McGahee, Bledsoe, Vincent, Milloy, Bennie Anderson, Tucker, Kevin Everett, Craig Nall, Peerless Price, Chris Villarrial, Fowler, Losman, Edwards, ... Y-A-W-N!!! The list goes on, and on, and on, ...
Are you tired Wys? You should take a nap!

[hydro]

starting DT.

Well thats where you are wrong...

Tripplett and Williams start every game. :laughing:

[OpIv37]

McCargo has trailed off the last couple games, but overall I think he's improving significantly. He's definitely in the backfield more and comes up with some stops in the run game. I think he may be starting to attract more attention from the O, which is why Tripplett is playing better.

[Wys Guy]

Well thats where you are wrong...

Tripplett and Williams start every game. :laughing:

In our system we have multiple starters. I've explained this before. Yes, Tripplett and Williams typically take the field on the first snap, but they all get comparable reps in this dunderheaded system designed to disrupt but that doesn't. It's weird, odd, and ******ed. It should hang an albatross of shame around Jauron's neck, and will, albeit it will take one more season before the diehard homers finally get tired of being dominated in the fundamentals by most teams, even the pathetic ones in wins.

Either way, let's suppose that at face value you are correct.

So the argument now is how good McCargo is because he can't replace Tripplett as a starter? How good is Tripplett then? I think he sucks. He's backup material.

So then, a guy that's been a proven perennial backup, backup/starter 'tweener tops, cannot be overcome by a player that we traded up two day one picks for?

And you think that's good then? Tsk, tsk. Shame on you, truly.

Our entire DT rotation is backup/depth material. Since by your standards McCargo is a backup in exactly such a situation, and given the pathetic overall performance by our DTs/DL and F7 in general to begin with, this makes a positive statement for McCargo how now?

:laughing:

;)

[streetkings01]

Well, let's see, he's got one sack on the season as the sum total of all sacks for the entire DT corps, and that one came in the Denver game, not on a great play by McCargo, but on a broken play finding Cutler running around the backfield for like 15 seconds, yes really, before running right into McG's awaiting arms.

Otherwise he's logged no sacks in the other 11 weeks since week one.

According to NFL.com, he ranks 17th on the Bills in tackles, again, as a starting DT.

He's posted three games with more than 2 tackles.

So you can connect the dots. Some here will tell you how much better he is this year, but again, connect the dots. IMO this F7 does so little that when there is a big play everyone rejoices and it's like sitting in the middle of the desert thirsting to death, then having someone offer you a cup of water, and then proclaiming that that was the best drink of anything you've ever had. True perhaps, but it doesn't make water the most flavorful drink in the world.

McCargo has one season to kick it up about three notches or we can officially label him a bust. To date, he is a bust given that we utterly wasted two day-one picks on him. He is fully incapable of anchoring down one DT position F/T and the only reason why he's even as effective as he is is because he rotates continually keeping him relatively fresh. If not he'd be getting steamrolled on a regular basis. He makes the rare good play, but heck, so do most other players.

Those that say much more are merely deluding themselves as they do annually here just like they did with so many players before now. McGahee, Bledsoe, Vincent, Milloy, Bennie Anderson, Tucker, Kevin Everett, Craig Nall, Peerless Price, Chris Villarrial, Fowler, Losman, Edwards, ... Y-A-W-N!!! The list goes on, and on, and on, ...

Post removed due to ToS violation. ~ Mr. Miyagi

[Wys Guy]

McCargo has trailed off the last couple games, but overall I think he's improving significantly. He's definitely in the backfield more and comes up with some stops in the run game. I think he may be starting to attract more attention from the O, which is why Tripplett is playing better.

What's the evidence of this?

He makes no tackles relatively speaking, few big plays, has made some big mistakes, and generally has no significant stats.

I know, I know, stats in his case are immaterial perhaps just like so many players in the past. (sarcasm)

Players in this league get rated/ranked/accoladed according to how their play manifests itself. The best that can be said about McCargo under those circumstances is that he's so feared by our opposing Offenses and offensive coordinators played that they intentionally avoid him in their game planning. To believe that would be about as naive as it gets IMO.

Frankly, the coaching has much to do with a lot of this. But again, I go back to trading a 2nd and high 3rd round pick in order to get what, a backup??

Whatever. Viva La Levy I suppose. At that rate we'll be lucky to ever post a winning season. We've sunk so many resources into a DL that doesn't even play traditional football. We have "shared starting" players that all rotate evenly for the most part meaning that we have to pay 8-10 players what most teams get from three or four.

If people believe in that philosophy, then they clearly do not understand the concept of a zero-sum game. The salary cap era of football is clearly exactly such a scenario.

[Wys Guy]

Wys...would you just STFU please?????? All you do is talk **** and when the Bills win you are nowhere to be found. What a ****ing loser!

Yeah, nice post.

Good to see the mods on top of this.

Sure, I'll STFU. Your request is granted.

Have a great weekend 06!

:smile:

[streetkings01]

Yeah, nice post.

Good to see the mods on top of this.

Sure, I'll STFU. Your request is granted.

Have a great weekend 06!

:smile:Wow...thats all it take for you to shut up??? If I would've known that, I would've done it a whooooooooooooooooooooooooole lot sooner!

[Mahdi]

What's the evidence of this?

He makes no tackles relatively speaking, few big plays, has made some big mistakes, and generally has no significant stats.

I know, I know, stats in his case are immaterial perhaps just like so many players in the past. (sarcasm)

Players in this league get rated/ranked/accoladed according to how their play manifests itself. The best that can be said about McCargo under those circumstances is that he's so feared by our opposing Offenses and offensive coordinators played that they intentionally avoid him in their game planning. To believe that would be about as naive as it gets IMO.

Frankly, the coaching has much to do with a lot of this. But again, I go back to trading a 2nd and high 3rd round pick in order to get what, a backup??

Whatever. Viva La Levy I suppose. At that rate we'll be lucky to ever post a winning season. We've sunk so many resources into a DL that doesn't even play traditional football. We have "shared starting" players that all rotate evenly for the most part meaning that we have to pay 8-10 players what most teams get from three or four.

If people believe in that philosophy, then they clearly do not understand the concept of a zero-sum game. The salary cap era of football is clearly exactly such a scenario.
You really dont understand football at all...and you dont watch football either. McCargo doesnt need to even make a tackle to be effective. Many times he just gets into the backfield quick enough to disrupt the running lane and cause the RB to adjust which gives our LBs a chance to make plays. McCargo is the main reason our run D has improved vastly over last year and if you paid attention and actually watched him play you would see that he is a force that teams are taking account of and double-teaming. And even then he is making plays. Stats are not important when it comes to how effective a DT is. Sure he could have more sacks but his contributions on D have been more than almost any player on Defense.

[OpIv37]

What's the evidence of this?

He makes no tackles relatively speaking, few big plays, has made some big mistakes, and generally has no significant stats.

I know, I know, stats in his case are immaterial perhaps just like so many players in the past. (sarcasm)

Players in this league get rated/ranked/accoladed according to how their play manifests itself. The best that can be said about McCargo under those circumstances is that he's so feared by our opposing Offenses and offensive coordinators played that they intentionally avoid him in their game planning. To believe that would be about as naive as it gets IMO.

Frankly, the coaching has much to do with a lot of this. But again, I go back to trading a 2nd and high 3rd round pick in order to get what, a backup??

Whatever. Viva La Levy I suppose. At that rate we'll be lucky to ever post a winning season. We've sunk so many resources into a DL that doesn't even play traditional football. We have "shared starting" players that all rotate evenly for the most part meaning that we have to pay 8-10 players what most teams get from three or four.

If people believe in that philosophy, then they clearly do not understand the concept of a zero-sum game. The salary cap era of football is clearly exactly such a scenario.

I think it's pretty clear that McCargo is playing better than he did before his injury last year or even his first few games this year. He makes more stops in the running game and is definitely in the backfield more.

That being said, I don't think he's a pro bowler or anything- just improved over where he was.

On the whole, I agree that we've sunk way too much money into a DL that gets no results.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Wys I don't think anyone is saying that Mcargo is playing up to the status of a first rounder. Just that he has improved his play from terrible to good.!

[Mahdi]

Wys I don't think anyone is saying that Mcargo is playing up to the status of a first rounder. Just that he has improved his play from terrible to good.!
Im just curious when McCargo has ever played terrible. In his first year he played spot duty in all of 4 or 5 games and the was done for the year. This is his first year actually getting real playing time and he's doing great.

[Mr. Pink]

So then, "much better" than horrid translates to "not a bust?"

Well, OK.

How does he compare to above average DTs?

How does someone who admittingly doesn't watch the games formulate an opinion on how a player plays?

[justasportsfan]

we need more from our DT's. They really haven't collapsed the pocket or barely wreaked havoc in the backfield from up the middle this entire season. I'm all for bringing in a stud DT to start ahead of Kyle.

The Tripplett/McCargo tandem is okay but not dominant. McCargo has to do way better if we are to beat any playoff calibre teams from the AFC. We can't keep sending our lbers or safeties to generate any pressure up the middle.

We have to be able to rush the passer consistently with only 4 guys if we are to be serious contenders in this league.

[Mahdi]

we need more from our DT's. They really haven't collapsed the pocket or barely wreaked havoc in the backfield from up the middle this entire season. I'm all for bringing in a stud DT to start ahead of Kyle.

The Tripplett/McCargo tandem is okay but not dominant. McCargo has to do way better if we are to beat any playoff calibre teams from the AFC. We can't keep sending our lbers or safeties to generate any pressure up the middle.

We have to be able to rush the passer consistently with only 4 guys if we are to be serious contenders in this league.
I agree that McCargo still has to get into the backfield more in the passing game, im confident that that will come soon though. But in reality that is Tripplett's job. Because in passing situations when Tripps and McCargo are together McCargo becomes the nose and Tripps is the 3-tech. He should be making way more plays. Maybe they should try playing McCargo at the 3 tech on passing downs more often. Or we can do what the Giants to and just play 4 DEs on 3rd down.

They go with Strahan-Tuck-Kiwanuka-Umenyiora on 3rd down which is pretty cool...

Maybe we can try Kelsay-Denney-Hargrove- Schobel ---- Denney would disrupt passing lanes with is 6'7" frame.

[justasportsfan]

Maybe we can try Kelsay-Denney-Hargrove- Schobel ---- Denney would disrupt passing lanes with is 6'7" frame.
they can't push back bigger guys up the middle. Plus it's also too crowded. The lighter guys are better off running from the outside where they can use their speed which will force OT to chase them to block them. While our DE"s are actually keeping qb's in the pocket and built fro pursuing more than anything, we're not collapsing the pocket up the middle. We need our DT"s to bring pressure up the middle.

The only time we really generate prssure up the middle is when we send the safeties and lb's. Problem is, with a qb like Brady and a wr like Welker, we get owned when we send them. TE's are also our biggest problems.

[Mahdi]

they can't push back bigger guys up the middle. Plus it's also too crowded. The lighter guys are better off running from the outside where they can use their speed which will force OT to chase them to block them. While our DE"s are actually keeping qb's in the pocket and built fro pursuing more than anything, we're not collapsing the pocket up the middle. We need our DT"s to bring pressure up the middle.
Well I see what yer saying but it works for the Giants and they are somewhere near the top of the league in sacks. Its just something creative that might work. Tuck and Kiwanuka are light, but its probably tough for the Guards to get their hands on them especially if they are stunting and weaving.

[TedMock]

I know, I know, stats in his case are immaterial perhaps just like so many players in the past. (sarcasm)



I know that you're a big fan of using stats to measure athletic performance, and that's fine. Stats are certainly one way to do it.

I'm curious though - do you think that any defensive player is capable of having a good game (or an excellent game) without logging one single stat? Also, do you think that defensive tackle stats are more, less, or equally reflective of performance as those stats for other defensive players?

I use stats as part of my assessment of a player, but I don't believe that as a stand-alone barometer, they are a significant indicator of performance. Other "non-measureable" factors quite often hold more weight to me. That's just my opinion and how I approach it. Did he get penetration? Did he hold point of attack? Was the RB forced to change direction? Did somebody else make a tackle because he turned the play toward them? Was the QB forced to move in or out of the pocket because of him? etc. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I just look at things differently.

[justasportsfan]

I know that you're a big fan of using stats to measure athletic performance, and that's fine. Stats are certainly one way to do it.

I'm curious though - do you think that any defensive player is capable of having a good game (or an excellent game) without logging one single stat? Also, do you think that defensive tackle stats are more, less, or equally reflective of performance as those stats for other defensive players?

I use stats as part of my assessment of a player, but I don't believe that as a stand-alone barometer, they are a significant indicator of performance. Other "non-measureable" factors quite often hold more weight to me. That's just my opinion and how I approach it. Did he get penetration? Did he hold point of attack? Was the RB forced to change direction? Did somebody else make a tackle because he turned the play toward them? Was the QB forced to move in or out of the pocket because of him? etc. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I just look at things differently.


If you look at our stats, you'd think we'd be the ones 0-13 and not the fins. That's the problem with stats.

[Jeff1220]

Ask Sam Adams about stats. The guy has been one of the better DTs the past 10-15 years. Usually his presence improves the run game and quality of D, but rarely do his stats show squat. For a DT, a good game could be sacks or tackles or it could also mean your presence on the field made a difference.

[Ingtar33]

he's playing like you'd expect most 2nd year DT's to play... like he needs 2 more years.

this is why i dislike drafting DTs, it takes 3 to 4 years for them to hit their stride. Yes, there are a few exceptions to that rule, but generally that's how it works.

as to this year, he's probably been our best DTs, now, when you consider who our DT's are, that's not a big accomplishment.

[TigerJ]

I would suggest if anyone has a problem with anyone else's posting, just use the ignore feature. The Bills this year are certainly frustrating when coming at it from a statistical angle. They really should have the worst record in the league based on the stats. I do want more from our DTs, but I'm more disappointed in our defensive ends. As far as sacks go, they tend to be few and far between for most DTs. Darnell Dockett has the most in the league for a DT this season at 8. Corey Williams and Tommy Harris each have 7. There are a few more who have 3-5 sacks each, but there are many who have only a sack or two, or less. Pat Williams has one.

As far as our ends go: Aaron Schobel has three sacks He ought o be closing in on double digits at this point. Chris Keslay has 2 and Ryan Denney has none. Anthony Hargrove, whom we all love for his enthusiasm, has a half a sack. Denney gets a pass because he's missed a good chunk of the season, but Buffalo has to get more than 6-7 sacks out of its ends by this point in the season. They just have to.

That said, the Bills have done a real good job defending against the run over the last several games. I guess my problem is I want it all.

[Oaf]

On the play for the safety, McCargo singlehandedly took the Center, LG, and running back out of the way on his stunt so that Crowell could come on his delay untouched. That's something that won't come up on the stat sheet.

[Tatonka]

Yeah, nice post.

Good to see the mods on top of this.

Sure, I'll STFU. Your request is granted.

Have a great weekend 06!

:smile:

finally!!!!

[Tatonka]

You really dont understand football at all...and you dont watch football either. McCargo doesnt need to even make a tackle to be effective. Many times he just gets into the backfield quick enough to disrupt the running lane and cause the RB to adjust which gives our LBs a chance to make plays. McCargo is the main reason our run D has improved vastly over last year and if you paid attention and actually watched him play you would see that he is a force that teams are taking account of and double-teaming. And even then he is making plays. Stats are not important when it comes to how effective a DT is. Sure he could have more sacks but his contributions on D have been more than almost any player on Defense.

wys is a stat whore.. always has been..

a DT can be playing well if he doesnt have 10 sacks.. blah blah..

i did wonder if he had watched any games after reading his post though.. it seems pretty obvious that he has not.

[Ingtar33]

im not sure why you all let Wys piss you off so much.

he's a contrarian personality. he likes to rain on parades, and to be honest, over the last 5 or so years hes been right more times then he's been wrong (likely more a statement of how bad the bills have been, then any natural talent on wys's end).

he's right, McCargo hasn't been good, as far as DT's in general go. but on this defense, he "looks" good, because of who he plays next to. He's probably our best DT, which, like Edwards is our best QB, means more about the rest of the players at his possition then about himself.

That said im pleased with where both of them are. and have hope for the future.