RIP Cover 2 - A Monster Blunder

[Night Train]

I can't sit in the stands anymore and watch another team just run over us, because they can. In my 40+ years of attending games, I can't recall a worse run D outside of 1971 (1-13) .

Kyle Williams, Larry Tripplett, Jason Jefferson, John DiGiorgio should never be on the field. Why John McCargo spends most plays standing on the sidelines is baffling to me.

I didn't drink a drop today and wished I had consumed a 12 pack. ( Of course, I'd need about $200 to do that at the Ralph )

I'm sure Perry Fewell is a nice fellow but we need a legit Defense to stop the run or we'll never sniff the playoffs. Since Jauron isn't going anywhere and the Bills will probably promote Turk or AVP on Offense, a Defensive coordinator and some massive DT's are a must.

The 2 year cute gimmick is over. Bury it.

The team isn't without talent but the square peg will NEVER fit into the round hole. The scheme doesn't work at all.

Get huge up the middle and watch our D suddenly get better. The whole point is to stop the run first. You can't argue it..It's SCIENCE !

[djjimkelly]

great post bro

[Mr. Pink]

Has nothing to do with the scheme of why we absolutely suck against the run.

Has everything to do with the lack of talent and ability of the front four against the run. Problem is there's so much money tied up in this garbage players that we really can't do anything about it.

[Akhippo]

I would take the Vikings approach to a team any any any day of the week. They are winning with T Jackson and a bunch of no name WR's.

I almost spit out my drink watching a replay of one of the Giants long runs. Both of our backers dove for the feet of the lineman coming out to block. Is that part of the cover two. What the hell was that.

[Night Train]

I would take the Vikings approach to a team any any any day of the week. They are winning with T Jackson and a bunch of no name WR's.


and a couple monsters in the middle...one named Pat Williams..

[Akhippo]

I dont mind Levy, but everybody hammers Donahoe about his GM skills. Why did we pay both DE's SO much money for no productivity. Josh Reed getting all his money for nothing special. Osi U. is worth Schobel money. He brought the heat all game long, didnt run past the QB and put our Pro bowler on his back.

Plus opposing lines dont even have to double team anybody on our line, that why when we blitz the fifth guy just has to pick him up.

[djjimkelly]

Has nothing to do with the scheme of why we absolutely suck against the run.

Has everything to do with the lack of talent and ability of the front four against the run. Problem is there's so much money tied up in this garbage players that we really can't do anything about it.


thats becuz every team in nfl depnds on only the front 4 lol

[Mr. Pink]

thats becuz every team in nfl depnds on only the front 4 lol

You win the game in the trenches. If you can control the line of scrimmage, you win 9 times out of 10.

So yes, every team in the NFL depends on the front 4 or 3, depending on scheme.

[Bmax]

The Biggest Bills Blunder besides drating Walt patalski and Mike Williams was not resigning Pat Williams...

When the bills were able to stop the Run they had Ted Washington or Big Pat...

Like Pat said after we let him and a couple of other players go... "Man they real dumb up there".....

Thanks Donahoe .....

Marv and Ralph saw it just like we all did..

Remember when we switched to the Tampa 2 We signed Triplett and tried to Sign Pickett-He chose Green Bay......

So it's not that they didn't try at first..I think the Biggest mistake was over estimating the talent of Kyle Williams....He is a nice wave guy....He spells your main guy....

A guy Like Tank Johnson could help .and of course Hanyesworth.. but they are not likely.....DRAFT OR SURPRISE FA OUR BEST BET...

My guess is that they make this position priority #1 B.. after WR-Big wr ....

Tampa and Indy did alright when they had DEF Linemen like Freeney,Sapp,Mcfarland, Mathis ......


Bmax

[Akhippo]

I dont care what system they call it. You need big guys up front that can gobble up defenders. You need ends that can bring the heat. If our DTs can bring the heat and the ends gobble up defenders thats a plus. But when you have both that can do neither, you are in trouble.

[YardRat]

I can't sit in the stands anymore and watch another team just run over us, because they can. In my 40+ years of attending games, I can't recall a worse run D outside of 1971 (1-13) .

Kyle Williams, Larry Tripplett, Jason Jefferson, John DiGiorgio should never be on the field. Why John McCargo spends most plays standing on the sidelines is baffling to me.

I didn't drink a drop today and wished I had consumed a 12 pack. ( Of course, I'd need about $200 to do that at the Ralph )

I'm sure Perry Fewell is a nice fellow but we need a legit Defense to stop the run or we'll never sniff the playoffs. Since Jauron isn't going anywhere and the Bills will probably promote Turk or AVP on Offense, a Defensive coordinator and some massive DT's are a must.

The 2 year cute gimmick is over. Bury it.

The team isn't without talent but the square peg will NEVER fit into the round hole. The scheme doesn't work at all.

Get huge up the middle and watch our D suddenly get better. The whole point is to stop the run first. You can't argue it..It's SCIENCE !

So what 'scheme' is the current roster better suited for?

Should we put in a 34 defense with three undersized lineman and a LBing corps of Crowell, DiG, Ellison, and Wire in the starting line-up? How about a variation of the Eagle defense with two corners whose strengths aren't man-to-man and safeties who can't keep up with receivers in a zone scheme let alone matched up one-on-one?

Or would you rather we just started from scratch and scrapped better than half of the starting line-up and try re-building once again? Who's going to go, because they don't fit the new scheme? Whitner? McGee? Schobel, Denney, and Kelsay?

[djjimkelly]

You win the game in the trenches. If you can control the line of scrimmage, you win 9 times out of 10.

So yes, every team in the NFL depends on the front 4 or 3, depending on scheme.


sorry it depends on front 7

regardless of 3-4 or 4-3

watch some other teams play more and get the sunday ticket and then tell me how many teams only rush 4 like we do id say 80-90% of the time

[djjimkelly]

So what 'scheme' is the current roster better suited for?

Should we put in a 34 defense with three undersized lineman and a LBing corps of Crowell, DiG, Ellison, and Wire in the starting line-up? How about a variation of the Eagle defense with two corners whose strengths aren't man-to-man and safeties who can't keep up with receivers in a zone scheme let alone matched up one-on-one?

Or would you rather we just started from scratch and scrapped better than half of the starting line-up and try re-building once again? Who's going to go, because they don't fit the new scheme? Whitner? McGee? Schobel, Denney, and Kelsay?


sadly i dont think we have many pieces to run a 3-4 . but with a few adjustments in position and some serious juice/gym work somethings could be done

our de's are too small to be 3-4 ends a couple of our LBs POZ and crowell could make switch without a doubt but i dont think we have a guy on our D line who could play as a 3-4 d lineman.

however schobel could play OLB bryce paup kevin greene style i have no doubt about that.

also u would have to decide what to do with mccargo either bulk up or slim down.

if he'd bulk up he could play NT slim down a little a nice DE in 3-4 id go with bulk up

i think denney could actually play DE in a 3-4 scheme.

hargrove could surprise at DE in a 3-4 scheme he already moves inside on certain plays for us now

so that leaves kelsey tripplet and i wont even name any other dlineman as they dont deserve to be spoken about.

id release tripplett to make switch and god knows with kelsey becuz he just resigned but he would not fit in a 3-4 anywhere. but he could play DE in rotation

that would leave us needing 1 to 2 LB's.

it could be done im baffled marv didnt make change 2 years ago.

we would have problems getting a starting 7 year 1

but it could look like this

LE denney
NT mccargo
RE hargrove extra DE kelsey

OLB schobel
MLB crowell
MLB POZ
OLB some free agent or draft pick

id also sign a big time DE

digirgio and ellison are WAY to small to play in a 3-4 scheme

we can only wish

[Night Train]

So what 'scheme' is the current roster better suited for?


The one where there isn't a 8 foot hole in the middle on the line on the running play.

You mentioned the DE's and others, not me. DT's with size who hold their ground,clog running lanes and force the run outside, where the pursuit cuts them off. I didn't say rebuild the entire D.

Get tougher up the middle.

[djjimkelly]

The one where there isn't a 8 foot hole in the middle on the line on the running play.

You mentioned the DE's and others, not me. DT's with size who hold their ground,clog running lanes and force the run outside, where the pursuit cuts them off. I didn't say rebuild the entire D.

Get tougher up the middle.

well the main up the middle hasn't played since week 3 and it shows

[Mr. Pink]

So you all admit that our DTs blow, yet it's just the scheme?

Interesting.

[Night Train]

well the main up the middle has played since week 3 and it shows

Poz is only as good as the DT's in front of him.

[YardRat]

The one where there isn't a 8 foot hole in the middle on the line on the running play.

You mentioned the DE's and others, not me. DT's with size who hold their ground,clog running lanes and force the run outside, where the pursuit cuts them off. I didn't say rebuild the entire D.

Get tougher up the middle.

So put a couple of fat-asses in the middle to clog it up. Do you still let the ends rush upfield without DT penetration and create gaping holes between the tackles and guards? Do you adjust the rush to the inside and leave the outside uncovered and expect a single LB to get there and make a play?

You tie up four D-lineman with five o-line, the TE seals the end the LB is covering and the WR on that side takes his man deep, most likely with safety help.

Do you expect a MLB or WLB to sift through the mass on a consistent basis and make a play?

What if the OT kicks the end out, the guard and center seal the DT's and the other guard pulls into the hole to knock of the LB at the second level? Who is supposed to make that tackle on a consistent basis?

[Night Train]

So you all admit that our DTs blow, yet it's just the scheme?

Interesting.

The scheme, in the eyes of the Bills, calls for small, quick DT's without talent that allow 8 foot gaps in the line and 100 yard rushers on a weekly basis. Or even 2 in the same game.

Not interesting, but fact.

So get big in the middle and you don't need to tear down much else on the Defense. A healthy Poz and another OLB with size to go with bigger DT's.

[Night Train]

Who is supposed to make that tackle on a consistent basis?

Who's making the tackles now ? Answer = no one near the LOS.
Explain your defense of this steller run D.

Offer a viable alternative, Coach. Waiting.

[YardRat]

The scheme, in the eyes of the Bills, calls for small, quick DT's without talent that allow 8 foot gaps in the line and 100 yard rushers on a weekly basis. Or even 2 in the same game.

Not interesting, but fact.

So get big in the middle and you don't need to tear down much else on the Defense. A healthy Poz and another OLB with size to go with bigger DT's.

The T2 requires quick upfield penetration from the DT's for the most part. You alter that aspect of the scheme, you create other issues.

You just fixed a problem in your opinion, but how do you compensate for other issues you created by making the switch?

[Mr. Pink]

The scheme, in the eyes of the Bills, calls for small, quick DT's without talent that allow 8 foot gaps in the line and 100 yard rushers on a weekly basis. Or even 2 in the same game.

Not interesting, but fact.

So get big in the middle and you don't need to tear down much else on the Defense. A healthy Poz and another OLB with size to go with bigger DT's.

Without talent is the key here. We suck at stopping the run, because, we lack talent.

Not because the scheme is flawed.

Other teams have ran the scheme fine. Why? Proper talent.

if we tore down the scheme, expect 3-4 more years of rebuilding to bring in the right guys for the scheme. Contractual obligations to players already on the team means it will take time to revamp on top of trying to find the proper personnel for the new system.

Want to go 3-4? Good luck. Neither End fits a 3-4 system. Sure schoebel might be a OLB in the 3-4 but he'd still have to try and cover someone once in a while...can he? Every DT on this roster would be scrapped, because none of them would be a 3-4 NT. The corners? HA. We'd require some kind of shutdown corner, we have none right now. 3-4 requires different responsibilities out of the safeties, can they perform those? No one knows.

Scrap the Cover 2 to play a 4-3, well we basically already employ a 4-3 front 7, so expect nothing to change, outside of again, useless DTs.

Point is this, we lack talent to play any kind of real defense. So we play bend but don't break. Mostly this works well for us, sometimes it doesn't. But more often than not, we're still in games until the final whistle

And here's the better part. We scrap this system in 2 years, which is what some of you want. What happens in 2 more years when we go to another system that won't work either? Especially seeing in 2 years we won't have the proper personnel to run that one either, be it 3-4, 46 or 4-3.

[Night Train]

Without talent is the key here. We suck at stopping the run, because, we lack talent.

Not because the scheme is flawed.

Other teams have ran the scheme fine. Why? Proper talent.

if we tore down the scheme, expect 3-4 more years of rebuilding to bring in the right guys for the scheme. Contractual obligations to players already on the team means it will take time to revamp on top of trying to find the proper personnel for the new system.

Want to go 3-4? Good luck. Neither End fits a 3-4 system. Sure schoebel might be a OLB in the 3-4 but he'd still have to try and cover someone once in a while...can he? Every DT on this roster would be scrapped, because none of them would be a 3-4 NT. The corners? HA. We'd require some kind of shutdown corner, we have none right now. 3-4 requires different responsibilities out of the safeties, can they perform those? No one knows.

Scrap the Cover 2 to play a 4-3, well we basically already employ a 4-3 front 7, so expect nothing to change, outside of again, useless DTs.

Point is this, we lack talent to play any kind of real defense. So we play bend but don't break. Mostly this works well for us, sometimes it doesn't. But more often than not, we're still in games until the final whistle

And here's the better part. We scrap this system in 2 years, which is what some of you want. What happens in 2 more years when we go to another system that won't work either? Especially seeing in 2 years we won't have the proper personnel to run that one either, be it 3-4, 46 or 4-3.

So show me this plethora of Cover 2 DT's who can turn our entire D around and suddenly shore up our run D. List them.

We already employ a 4-3 front 7 ? What are you talking about ? I see Kelsay and Schobel running back into coverage on many plays. That's pure fantasy.

[Mr. Pink]

So show me this plethora of Cover 2 DT's who can turn our entire D around and suddenly shore up our run D. List them.

We already employ a 4-3 front 7 ? What are you talking about ? I see Kelsay and Schobel running back into coverage on many plays. That's pure fantasy.

What those plays where we rush 2 against the Pats? If Schoebel and Kelsay drop into pass coverage more than 5% of the time, I'd be shocked. Take the like 20 plays of the year to prove your point as a rule not an exception. Nice! Most of the time I see Schoebel running 5 yards behind the QB honestly.

Anthony McFarland sure turned around an Indy defense last year, didn't he?
We coulda had him, if the braintrust admitted to making an error in judgement on the DT position midseason last year.

Tank Johnson made the Bears Cover 2 run well last year, him being gone showed exactly what the Bears were missing this year. And that's not to slight Tommie Harris at all. Guess what? We could had him too. And had him for the stretch run this year. But, he's not a high character guy, so scratch that idea.

There's two examples of guys we coulda brought in, this year and last who would have instantly shored up our D. But we passed on both.

[YardRat]

So show me this plethora of Cover 2 DT's who can turn our entire D around and suddenly shore up our run D. List them.

We already employ a 4-3 front 7 ? What are you talking about ? I see Kelsay and Schobel running back into coverage on many plays. That's pure fantasy.

4-3 is the basic formation...zone blitzing/coverage from the formation is the specific scheme employed from the formation. There's a difference.

Line up three TE's and two backs on the one yard line on offense. Just because you might pass the ball when the ball is snapped doesn't mean you still aren't lining up jumbo.

[Oldbillsfan]

Horrible run stoppping from the Bills today. The Giants ran to the right all day and domininated since the first qtr. The Bills had no answer.

[Billzz]

I can't sit in the stands anymore and watch another team just run over us, because they can. In my 40+ years of attending games, I can't recall a worse run D outside of 1971 (1-13) .

Kyle Williams, Larry Tripplett, Jason Jefferson, John DiGiorgio should never be on the field. Why John McCargo spends most plays standing on the sidelines is baffling to me.

I didn't drink a drop today and wished I had consumed a 12 pack. ( Of course, I'd need about $200 to do that at the Ralph )

I'm sure Perry Fewell is a nice fellow but we need a legit Defense to stop the run or we'll never sniff the playoffs. Since Jauron isn't going anywhere and the Bills will probably promote Turk or AVP on Offense, a Defensive coordinator and some massive DT's are a must.

The 2 year cute gimmick is over. Bury it.

The team isn't without talent but the square peg will NEVER fit into the round hole. The scheme doesn't work at all.

Get huge up the middle and watch our D suddenly get better. The whole point is to stop the run first. You can't argue it..It's SCIENCE !

We do very well in the first half of the game stopping the run, it's when the defense is out on the field for an extended part of the game where they get tired. We let 2 100 yard rushers today which I agree is a Fing disgrace for any team but think about 1 thinng. We do not have the rotation at certain run stopping positions, these guys stay out on the field longer and just plain get worn out. Especially towards the end of the games it just seems like there isn't any gas left in the tanks.

My view wether it's right or wrong I can't help but feel it has something to do with it. You have a defense built on speed with a bunch of exhausted LB's Corners and Safties playing longer then they normally would getting gassed.

[Owen DeBoard]

I dont mind Levy, but everybody hammers Donahoe about his GM skills. Why did we pay both DE's SO much money for no productivity. Josh Reed getting all his money for nothing special. Osi U. is worth Schobel money. He brought the heat all game long, didnt run past the QB and put our Pro bowler on his back.

Plus opposing lines dont even have to double team anybody on our line, that why when we blitz the fifth guy just has to pick him up.
Aaron Schobel is worth his money. He had a sack a forced fumble and a fumble recovery with 5 tackles. I would say that is a pretty productive day. Osi U was playing against a backup left tackle most of the game after Peters got hurt. Peters held him in check until he got hurt. I would hate to see what this d-line would look like without Schobel.

[EDS]

So what 'scheme' is the current roster better suited for?

Should we put in a 34 defense with three undersized lineman and a LBing corps of Crowell, DiG, Ellison, and Wire in the starting line-up? How about a variation of the Eagle defense with two corners whose strengths aren't man-to-man and safeties who can't keep up with receivers in a zone scheme let alone matched up one-on-one?

Or would you rather we just started from scratch and scrapped better than half of the starting line-up and try re-building once again? Who's going to go, because they don't fit the new scheme? Whitner? McGee? Schobel, Denney, and Kelsay?

For the record, Schobel, McGee, Crowell, Denney, Kelsay and Greer all came to Buffalo before the Cover-Two. So those guys can play in another system - we know this because they did so more successfully. Whitner and Poz can likely play in any system.

So in the end, the only missfits are some back-up caliber linebackers and some not-so-good defensive tackles. All need to be replaced anyway so no loss there.

[Kerr]

Indy
Tampa
Detroit
Minnesota
KC


From what I understand all these teams are running a version of the cover 2. Three out of the 5 have success with the scheme becuase they have the right personnel. It's not the scheme, it's the players.

[djjimkelly]

Indy
Tampa
Detroit
Minnesota
KC


From what I understand all these teams are running a version of the cover 2. Three out of the 5 have success with the scheme becuase they have the right personnel. It's not the scheme, it's the players.


KC does not run the cover 2 sorry

[YardRat]

For the record, Schobel, McGee, Crowell, Denney, Kelsay and Greer all came to Buffalo before the Cover-Two. So those guys can play in another system - we know this because they did so more successfully. Whitner and Poz can likely play in any system.

So in the end, the only missfits are some back-up caliber linebackers and some not-so-good defensive tackles. All need to be replaced anyway so no loss there.

So you've got seven of the eleven positions covered. Fill out the other four spots with actual players and determine what system you're going to run with them.

[YardRat]

KC does not run the cover 2 sorry

KC switched to the cover two last year.

[EDS]

So you've got seven of the eleven positions covered. Fill out the other four spots with actual players and determine what system you're going to run with them.


Um, you have at least 4 holes on the starting defense no matter what scheme the Bills employ. Might as well at least shift to a scheme where some of the existing players had success and that can achieve results without either perfect personnel (i.e., Tampa Bay or Chicago) or an offense that puts up huge points and forces the opposition to pass to catch up (Indy).

[YardRat]

Um, you have at least 4 holes on the starting defense no matter what scheme the Bills employ. Might as well at least shift to a scheme where some of the existing players had success and that can achieve results without either perfect personnel (i.e., Tampa Bay or Chicago) or an offense that puts up huge points and forces the opposition to pass to catch up (Indy).

I understand.

But what specific scheme would you switch to, and what players would you use to fill the four spots?

Would you go back to the Williams/Gray version of the 46?

[Akhippo]

Penetrating DT's are not necessary. DT's that collapse the pocket are needed. Get me two of those to go with McCargo. Draft a DE like Elvis Dumervil or Robert Mathis. Speed off the end scares teams no matter the skills level.
Then bring in a OLB with some size to replace Ellison. Im tired of watching our LB's take on OLman by diving at their feet. That happened a couple of times yesterday against the giants.

[YardRat]

Penetration is necessary against the run in the T2.

[Kerr]

KC does not run the cover 2 sorry


Herman Edwards is a product of the cover 2 scheme FYI :up:

[colin]

it's not the scheme, it's the scrubs.

we have 4-5 guys on D just about every down that wouldn't be a starter for any team with a healthy roster. add back poz and ko, get in a wlb who can play and a db and all of a sudden we might be able to play.