My Thoughts on the Giants DEBACLE

[patmoran2006]

I have a variety of things I want to touch on, so if you're in the mood to read by ready for a longer post than normal.. Not necessarily in order of importance either.

STEVE FAIRCHILD
He can't get out of this town fast enough. What a horrendous display of playcalling after the first two series. It's almost like he was satisfied with us scoring 14 points for the day. Here are a few specifics off the very top of my head that make me despise him.
*On back to back drives in the third quarter the same thing happened. One drive Lynch went for 13 yards on the left side. The next play was the EXACT same play call (literally) that was stuffed for a 5 yard loss. On the next drive, Lynch ran to the right for four yards. Next play? YOu guessed it, the EXACT same call (literally) that was stuffed for a big loss, creating 3rd and long.
* Lynch has 40+ yards in the first quarter, and then doesn't see another ball thrown his way for how long?
This guy just doesn't get it in this town. more than any one player, the top priority needs to be finding a coordinator that has imagination and will play to the strengths of a team. I'm done with him, he's ****ing brutal.

FEWELL/MCCARGO
Why in God's name doesn't this kid get more playing time? Check your TIVO's for this if you think I'm lying. On that drive that we stopped them at the goaline; McCargo makes big plays on both 3rd and 4th down and we take over.. Do you know the next time McCargo saw the field after that? On a 3rd and 1 from our red zone (Manning fumbled and lost that play, Tripplett fell on it). Why in the hell is he sitting on the bench during all those plays? He plays sparingly, and though he is showing the talent he has; it was stupid to trade up for a 1st rounder who is literally a situational DT (and that's how we're using him). Pathetic.

DONTE WHITNER
You may not be there yet Mr. Whitner. But you are treading a very THIN line of ice of being the next big-time Buffalo Bills BUST. Though there is plenty of blame to spread around today, no single player deserves to get called out more than Whitner. He pretty much single-handedly let the Giants back into the game. First with the absolute idiotic roughing the kicker call (why is your starting strong safety on an injury depleted unit being risked on special teams to begin with?), and then taking his typical horrible angle to allow Jacobs to spring for the long TD run. He also missed numerous tackles, was out of position all day, and was absolutely schooled every time he was matched up on Toomer. Development may take time, but Mr. Whitner has been in the league for almost two full seasons now, and it's time for it to be said.. He sure as hell aint no Sanders, Polamalu, Reed or even Roy Wililams.. He looks like any other safety on any other team in the NFL. There is NOTHING special about him, and that would be fine if it weren't for the fact we picked him 8th overall in the draft. HOW MUCH BETTER WOULD THIS DEFENSE be had we used that pick on Ernie Simms (1 pick later) or Haloti Ngata (4 picks later)? Both players were guys we were considering. I laughed when Detroit took Simms one pick later at the time, I'm not laughing anymore.

JASON PETERS
If anybody doesn't think Peters should be extended immediately, just look at how this offense looked once he went out with his injury. BEfore they sign a single free agent this offseason, he should be locked up FIRST.

DRAFT GURU???
I hate to rain on Marv Levy's "draft genius" parade. Don't get me wrong, the crop of Lynch, Poz and Edwards looks incredible right now. But as for 2006 being such a great draft class; Uhhh, not so fast. Donte Whitner is VERY average; John McCargo for whatever reason remains a situational player taken about 25% of the defensive snaps. And Ashton Youboty can't even see the ****ing field. That is NOT good first-day production two years later, when two of those picks were first rounders. Someone explain to me what is so genius about that? Kyle Williams and Keith Ellison also are starting from that class, which leads me to my next topic...

TACKLING
Absolutely horrific display of tackling for the second straight week. Yes, this defense is intentionally undersized and built for speed; with the design to be able to swarm the ball. But what the hell good is that if you CANNOT TACKLE worth ****? Kyle Williams was pretty much SWARMED away on runs up the middle. Ellison, tipped interception my grandmother could've caught, was irrelevent and missed tackles yet again. DiGiorgio missed his fair share to and Leonhard tackled like **** too. That was inexcusable. That defense played like they were SCARED of Jacobs today.

NUMBER #2 WR?
All season long I've been pleading for us to get a legit #2 WR this offseason. Turns out we may need a number ONE WR this offseason. Lee Evans is a good WR, and at times he's VERY good. But he is far from an elite WR in this league. That ball he dropped that led to the backbreaking INT TD return was horrible. There's been not just drives or quarters, but GAMES where this guy can't get open. One thing is for certain; he's no Steve Smith, Moss, Owens, Harrison, Wayne, etc. He makes the big plays every now and then, but they almost always come against the chumps of this league. When has he showed up against a good team this year? It's not his fault entirely, I'm well aware of that. We DO need more quality weapons around him. But Ive been watching him very close, and he's not double teamed as much as people think, yet he still isn't getting open. Maybe with another solid WR next to him he'll be better, but he's been a huge dissapointment this year.

TRENT EDWARDS
I was scared that this kind of game would happen to him today, yet I can't say Im' surprised. Myself and judging by today's comments, a lot of you forget that he is a ROOKIE QUARTERBACK. Generally, rookie QB's make mistakes more than they should and today he was no exception. I'm not bothered by the three picks. I"m bothered by the way he bounced back from the first interception. The ball went off Evans and was returned for a TD. I expected him to bounce back sharp but today he didn't. He went into a mental funk and threw some terrible footballs after that. HIs stats were brutal, and they weren't helped out by an inexplicible amount of drops.

It was alarming to see such night and day in one game. On the first two drives he looked like the best QB in the NFL. For the balance of the day following, he played by far his worst game ever. I'm not going to get too down on him, because I like him and think he's going to be a very good quarterback. There's not a QB who's ever laced them up who hasn't had some games like this. I'm more interested in seeing how he regroups.

I am concerned about one thing long-term though. I'm not sure he looks at all comfortable in cold weather and bad conditions. I hope to GOd that's something that he gets better with as he becomes more acclimated to Buffalo.

COVER TWO
Throw the ****ing defense out the window this offseason, PLEASE!!! Here's a memo to Dick, Marv and Perry. Wind, Rain, Snow, Slush, Hail, etc NEGATE speed and this defense is supposedly built for "speed." Guess what, this is the Buffalo Bills, not the Arizona Cardinals. You're going to see plenty of weather like this every year and it's never going to change.

POOR PERSONNEL MOVE
It seemed so inconsequential at the time, but not bringing back last year's long snapper (Shneck- spelling?) is really biting us in the ass now. Neil has blown two punt snaps in back to back weeks that have REALLY hurt us. I truly feel going by the Giants body language at 14-0, if that snapped to Moorman isnt' blown, and we don't let them get back into the game, that we win this game going away. Neil is a chumpstain.

LYNCH
Why did we stop throwing the ball to him? After 14 games I thought we finally figured out that he can be a weapon. There is nothing about this kid I don't like. He's going to be a Pro Bowler.

GAME BALL
As annoying as this game was; I have to give out at least one game ball. My ball goes to Langston Walker, who I thought OWNED Michael Strahan all day long.



SUMMARY:
What a ****ing mess. We have NOT looked like a Buffalo team the last two weeks. Our guys have played like we're a Florida team that cringes playing in bad weather. Bad throws, dropped balls all over the place and putrid tackling. This is NOT how a Buffalo team should be built.

Basically, this team right now is where they should be. They beat up on the cellar dwellars of the league, and they get smoked by the better teams in the league. I think that's par for the course, because I think it's where our talent level is currently at.

It comes down to this offseason and how badly Wilson actually wants to win. If we don't invest in a few guys on defense much better at getting to the quarterback and tackling the runner, our defense won't see much improvement; with or without Poz and Ko Simpson. They need to get a much better 1-gap DT than K. Williams (who gets punked off by strong running teams, see last two weeks) and they need a much better playmaker at OLB than Keith Ellison. Ellison and Williams are extraordinarily average and Ralph needs to open up the walletbook to get better.

Offensively, we just simply don't ****ing catch the ball well or get open consistently. It couldn't be any more clear than that. We need playmakers on offense besides Evans and Lynch, that's simply not enough. Whether be via FA with ESTABLISHED talent or in round one of the draft (or both actually), they need to get weapons here. Hopefully that along with a O.C. who's head hasn't been in Colorado State all season will improve a unit that frankly SUCKS this year.

[patmoran2006]

and btw, is Schobel simply satisfied with the monster contract? Or is there another reason he's having a for the most part, an irrelevent year? I don't see any more or less double teaming on him than years past.

[Bufftp]

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 346pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=461 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 58pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2816" width=77><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" span=6 width=64><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 58pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=77 height=17>QB Disaster</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64>C/ATT</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64 x:str="comp % ">comp % </TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64>YDS</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64>AVG</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64>TD</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64>INT</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" height=17>T. Edwards (http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=10536)</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>9/26</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:fmla="=(9/26)" x:num="0.34615384615384615">34.62%</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num>161</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num>6.2</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num>3</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[patmoran2006]

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 346pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=461 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 58pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2816" width=77><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" span=6 width=64><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 58pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=77 height=17>QB Disaster</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64>C/ATT</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64 x:str="comp % ">comp % </TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64>YDS</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64>AVG</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64>TD</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64>INT</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" height=17>T. Edwards (http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=10536)</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>9/26</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.34615384615384615" x:fmla="=(9/26)">34.62%</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num>161</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num>6.2</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num>3</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Are you trying to same something? If so, so am I.

ROOKIE SEASON STATS
Peyton Manning: 26 TD, 28 INT, 3739 yards, 52.9%, 3-13 record.
Troy Aikman: 9 TD, 18 INT, 1749 yards, 56.7%, 1-15 record
Trent Edwards: 7 TD, 8 INT, 1497 yards, 57.2%, 5-3 record.

Good thing Indy and Dallas didn't dump on their guy after one season. Not saying Edwards is a future HOF'er like these guys, but he's a ROOKIE! Did you expect him to have Tom Brady numbers with a lack of talent around him, nonetheless?

[Bufftp]

No pat my point is TE sucked today.
I do not think he is the answer. For that matter this staff and the last two cannot develop a QB.

[patmoran2006]

No pat my point is TE sucked today.
I do not think he is the answer. For that matter this staff and the last two cannot develop a QB.
I think he played badly today in the second half, as did a lot of players. He was really, really bad in fact today, but haven't said that. I haven't seen nowhere near enough to say he's not the answer long-term.

[yordad]

Hey, I just mentioned a lot of the same things in a new thread. You beat me by about 45 min, but it took me 1.5 hours to type mine.

I agree on nearly everything you typed. Except, I'm not as opimistic about Trent.

Very Nice Post.

Edit: "GAME BALL
As annoying as this game was; I have to give out at least one game ball. My ball goes to Langston Walker, who I thought OWNED Michael Strahan all day long."

Nice catch. Was Strahan even mentioned once?

[Oaf]

If you could JUST get a copy of this into Jauron's hands and have him give his reply...........
MAN that would be good.

[patmoran2006]

I think early in the game Edwards was comfortable, poised and making the right reads. Evidence is patiently waiting to the last second to dump the ball off to Lynch on the screen, waiting for Evans to get open on the first pass of the game, adn the excellent last second checkdown to Gaines that went for about 18 yards.

After Peters went down, and especially after the first interception; for the first time this year I saw him looked a bit un-nerved. He started rushing a lot more passes (maybe out of lack of confidence in pass block, dunno) and he was forcing a lot down the field, which is very uncharacteristic of the way he's played this year.

[DraftBoy]

I like how you completely destroy Fairchild, Fewell, Whitner, and Levy in your post, but for Edwards its a well you know he's a rookie. Call a spade a spade, the kid flat out sucked today rookie or no rookie. He looked worst than unnerved after those first two drives and that really bothers me. I dont know many QB's who go from on fire to poo on a stick that fast. Yes the elements didnt, help and the playcalling blew but his passes looked like crap a lot of the time and play calling had nothing to do with that. He floated some, he short armed some, he didnt set his feet, he read the defense wrong. The one with Parrish I gotta put on Parrish though, you dont sell inside like that and then make the adjustment up the field without letting the QB know. Also Evans has gotta catch that ball that went for a TD, those two cannot be put on Trent. Point is I expect the Buffalo Bills QB to play at a certain level rookie or no rookie, I judged JP the same way and will continue to do the same to Trent. People who use excuses like he's a rookie, or the weather sucked, are just saying those because he's a favorite player of theirs.

[patmoran2006]

Trent did suck today.
But it IS a legitimate excuse to use a rookie label when the kid is playing against a good front seven, losing his pro bowl left tackle, and a flood of drops by WR's, when there even able to get open to begin with. To top it off, we have our "best" WR basically give them 7 points.

I'm not going to throw him under the bus for having a bad game when few players if any did anything to help him out.

As for the coaches, their game plan sucked on both sides of the ball, and its an ONGOING problem.

[DraftBoy]

Trent did suck today.
But it IS a legitimate excuse to use a rookie label when the kid is playing against a good front seven, losing his pro bowl left tackle, and a flood of drops by WR's, when there even able to get open to begin with. To top it off, we have our "best" WR basically give them 7 points.

I'm not going to throw him under the bus for having a bad game when few players if any did anything to help him out.

As for the coaches, their game plan sucked on both sides of the ball, and its an ONGOING problem.


Yea yea yea, say what you want about legitimizing this or that, fact is that this kid has not played like a rookie until these past two weeks and was widely hearlded on these board for it, yet he regresses and all the sudden the rookie label comes out? How about we pick a way of critiquing the kid and stick with it? Ive been very clear since the beginning about how I will evaluate the kids play. Ive seen him for 3 years prior to the NFL and I think I know what to expect from him. So as for him being a rookie, that does not really matter to me, he's already proven the tag doesnt fit.

[Akhippo]

Point is I expect the Buffalo Bills QB to play at a certain level rookie or no rookie.

Thats a problem right there. Rookie play is night and day different than even second year guys. Thats just a fact that if ignored is blind ignorance. People give receivers three years, but a qb cant even get half a year?

And usually a qb doesnt look on fire accidentally. The fact that he even looked that good is a good thing. The way he was getting hit all game probably gave him happy feet. Not that that is a good thing, but he was taking shots to the chest.

[Crisis]

The problem is we have two rookie quarterbacks and only one is actually a rookie.

[DraftBoy]

Thats a problem right there. Rookie play is night and day different than even second year guys. Thats just a fact that if ignored is blind ignorance. People give receivers three years, but a qb cant even get half a year?

And usually a qb doesnt look on fire accidentally. The fact that he even looked that good is a good thing. The way he was getting hit all game probably gave him happy feet. Not that that is a good thing, but he was taking shots to the chest.

SOME people give WR's three years to develop, and thats not when they show the same play that this kid did to start their career. This is different, Edwards was widely known going into the Draft as one of the more NFL ready QB's. He was smart, quick release, good size, enough arm strength, and had plenty of experience. He was pretty much maxed out potential wise.

Sorry I dont jump up and down or run around my house doing cartwheels when a rookie has a good game, or decide to annoit him the next franchise QB. All he's doing for me is meeting expectations. Call me ignorant if you want, but I disagree with you.

[Bill Brasky]

DONTE WHITNER
You may not be there yet Mr. Whitner. But you are treading a very THIN line of ice of being the next big-time Buffalo Bills BUST. Though there is plenty of blame to spread around today, no single player deserves to get called out more than Whitner. He pretty much single-handedly let the Giants back into the game. First with the absolute idiotic roughing the kicker call (why is your starting strong safety on an injury depleted unit being risked on special teams to begin with?), and then taking his typical horrible angle to allow Jacobs to spring for the long TD run. He also missed numerous tackles, was out of position all day, and was absolutely schooled every time he was matched up on Toomer. Development may take time, but Mr. Whitner has been in the league for almost two full seasons now, and it's time for it to be said.. He sure as hell aint no Sanders, Polamalu, Reed or even Roy Wililams.. He looks like any other safety on any other team in the NFL. There is NOTHING special about him, and that would be fine if it weren't for the fact we picked him 8th overall in the draft. HOW MUCH BETTER WOULD THIS DEFENSE be had we used that pick on Ernie Simms (1 pick later) or Haloti Ngata (4 picks later)? Both players were guys we were considering. I laughed when Detroit took Simms one pick later at the time, I'm not laughing anymore.


we must have watched a different game. i was in the stands and couldn't even begin to count how many times jacobs got into our secondary because our DL/LB's couldn't tackle. you are expecting a 208lb Safety to crush a 264lb Running Back in the open field for 60 minutes?

this defense gave up 291 yards on the ground today. i fail to see how that is the Safety's fault.

[patmoran2006]

we must have watched a different game. i was in the stands and couldn't even begin to count how many times jacobs got into our secondary because our DL/LB's couldn't tackle. you are expecting a 208lb Safety to crush a 264lb Running Back in the open field for 60 minutes?

this defense gave up 291 yards on the ground today. i fail to see how that is the Safety's fault.
Led to my point.

Would Jacob and these other RB's be getting in the secondary so often if we had Ngata or Simms instead?

There is no way around it with Whitner.. Right now, he's very ordinary and sure as hell aint playing like a top 8 pick.

[HHURRICANE]

No pat my point is TE sucked today.
I do not think he is the answer. For that matter this staff and the last two cannot develop a QB.

For everyone that forgot there was a frickin 30 mph wind with gusts up to 50mph. Eli completed 7 passes.

When the weather went bad the game went in a completly different direction.

The stats were not good and Trent made his share of mistakes but I don't think we need to be drafting another QB.

[BillsFever21]

Led to my point.

Would Jacob and these other RB's be getting in the secondary so often if we had Ngata or Simms instead?

There is no way around it with Whitner.. Right now, he's very ordinary and sure as hell aint playing like a top 8 pick.

Hmm. I may be wrong but were you or were you not one of the guys raving about the Whitner pick and trying to justify it a couple years ago? Nope I'm not wrong.

[Dr. Lecter]

IDONTE WHITNER
You may not be there yet Mr. Whitner. But you are treading a very THIN line of ice of being the next big-time Buffalo Bills BUST. Though there is plenty of blame to spread around today, no single player deserves to get called out more than Whitner. He pretty much single-handedly let the Giants back into the game. First with the absolute idiotic roughing the kicker call (why is your starting strong safety on an injury depleted unit being risked on special teams to begin with?), and then taking his typical horrible angle to allow Jacobs to spring for the long TD run. He also missed numerous tackles, was out of position all day, and was absolutely schooled every time he was matched up on Toomer. Development may take time, but Mr. Whitner has been in the league for almost two full seasons now, and it's time for it to be said.. He sure as hell aint no Sanders, Polamalu, Reed or even Roy Wililams.. He looks like any other safety on any other team in the NFL. There is NOTHING special about him, and that would be fine if it weren't for the fact we picked him 8th overall in the draft. HOW MUCH BETTER WOULD THIS DEFENSE be had we used that pick on Ernie Simms (1 pick later) or Haloti Ngata (4 picks later)? Both players were guys we were considering. I laughed when Detroit took Simms one pick later at the time, I'm not laughing anymore.

DRAFT GURU???
I hate to rain on Marv Levy's "draft genius" parade. Don't get me wrong, the crop of Lynch, Poz and Edwards looks incredible right now. But as for 2006 being such a great draft class; Uhhh, not so fast. Donte Whitner is VERY average; John McCargo for whatever reason remains a situational player taken about 25% of the defensive snaps. And Ashton Youboty can't even see the ****ing field. That is NOT good first-day production two years later, when two of those picks were first rounders. Someone explain to me what is so genius about that? Kyle Williams and Keith Ellison also are starting from that class, which leads me to my next topic...



Whitner is nowhere near a bust. He had a bad game, but has been very good this year. Calling him a bust after a bad game is an over-reaction, even for you Pat.

As for first day product, #1 this past draft is still too early to evaluate. 2ndly it is good production. McCargo, Whitner, Edwards, Lynch and Poz will all be starting next year. 5 out of 6 is excellent, whether you want to admit it or not.

[Mahdi]

I think the interception Trent threw that was intended for Josh Reed is a perfect example of why this offense struggles. In order for Trent to comlpete that throw to Reed he has to put it right on the money because putting it anywhere else will make it too hard for Reed to catch. The pass was on the money and thats why it was picked off, because when its that accurate the defender has an oportunity to make a play on it as well. However if you have a Brandon Marshall type player to throw to then you can put that pass high and outside and expect your receiver to catch it while keeping it away from the defender.

Thats just one example, but that problem is one that exists with all our receivers, TEs included. Thats a huge problem to have and its impossible to overcome.

Were just not good enough to make plays consistently. This last game against the Giants was not surprising at all IMO. You would have to be a pretty bad DC not to stop our offense.

[dannyek71]

Once peters went down, TE had no time to throw. Which was a factor. Secondly, once the rain/hail/snow started to fall, it got incredibly frigid there, and that is when TE really began to struggle

[Owen DeBoard]

and btw, is Schobel simply satisfied with the monster contract? Or is there another reason he's having a for the most part, an irrelevent year? I don't see any more or less double teaming on him than years past.
Why dont you open your eyes a little more instead of trying to find a problem on defense instead of Schobel. He had the teams only sack, it didnt come in garbage time either, he forced a fumble which led to a turnover, he recovered a fumble, and had five solo tackles. I also seen him catch Jacobs from behind also and make the tackle. His motor never stops. I dont know how many times I have to point this out but Schobel has been our most consistent defensive player. These past few weeks he has been getting more sacks than anyone on the d-line. Boy I would hate to see this d-line without him. Also when was the last time Schobel missed a game due to injury? I cant even remember.
If you want to call somebody out how about Chris Kelsay? What in the world has he done this year to warrant his contract. This guy wouldnt be able to start for any other team in the nfl, but I guarantee that Schobel could start for just about any other team.

[raphael120]

<table style="width: 346pt; border-collapse: collapse;" x:str="" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="461"><colgroup><col style="width: 58pt;" width="77"><col style="width: 48pt;" span="6" width="64"></colgroup><tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl26" style="border: 0.5pt solid windowtext; width: 58pt; height: 12.75pt; background-color: silver;" height="17" width="77">QB Disaster</td><td class="xl24" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: 0.5pt 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: silver;" width="64">C/ATT</td><td class="xl29" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: 0.5pt 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: silver;" x:str="comp % " width="64">comp % </td><td class="xl24" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: 0.5pt 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: silver;" width="64">YDS</td><td class="xl24" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: 0.5pt 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: silver;" width="64">AVG</td><td class="xl24" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: 0.5pt 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: silver;" width="64">TD</td><td class="xl24" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: 0.5pt 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: silver;" width="64">INT</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl27" style="border-style: none solid solid; border-color: windowtext; border-width: medium 0.5pt 0.5pt; height: 12.75pt; background-color: white;" height="17">T. Edwards (http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=10536)</td><td class="xl28" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: medium 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: white;" width="64">9/26</td><td class="xl30" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: medium 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: white;" x:fmla="=(9/26)" x:num="0.34615384615384615" width="64">34.62%</td><td class="xl25" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: medium 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: white;" x:num="" width="64">161</td><td class="xl25" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: medium 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: white;" x:num="" width="64">6.2</td><td class="xl25" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: medium 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: white;" x:num="" width="64">2</td><td class="xl25" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: windowtext; border-width: medium 0.5pt 0.5pt medium; width: 48pt; background-color: white;" x:num="" width="64">3</td></tr></tbody></table>

I love how people like this will want Trent "the rookie" to pack his bags after 2 bad games but then want JP Losman to play after he's had 25 bad games and continues to have bad games as a veteran QB.

[Jan Reimers]

I think the infusion of 4 or 5 good players via the draft or FA, plus getting 2 or 3 key guys off IR, and an OC who will open things up, will lead to more wins next year and quiet some of the *****ing on here.

Two games ago we were 7-6 and fighting for the playoffs, and everyone was relatively pleased.

Now with 2 bad weather losses, it seems like half the people on here can hardly find a positive thing to say.

[BuffaloBlakely14]

Yea yea yea, say what you want about legitimizing this or that, fact is that this kid has not played like a rookie until these past two weeks and was widely hearlded on these board for it, yet he regresses and all the sudden the rookie label comes out? How about we pick a way of critiquing the kid and stick with it? Ive been very clear since the beginning about how I will evaluate the kids play. Ive seen him for 3 years prior to the NFL and I think I know what to expect from him. So as for him being a rookie, that does not really matter to me, he's already proven the tag doesnt fit.

Generally you have well thought out great posts, this is far from one of those.

[Dr. Lecter]

As for the coaches, their game plan sucked on both sides of the ball, and its an ONGOING problem.

The game plan(s) was not the problem.

Missed tackles, dropped passes, fumbles, bad throws, missed blocks and bad Special Teams was the problem.

This game, more than any other this year, was a player execution problem.

[Dr. Lecter]

SOME people give WR's three years to develop, and thats not when they show the same play that this kid did to start their career. This is different, Edwards was widely known going into the Draft as one of the more NFL ready QB's. He was smart, quick release, good size, enough arm strength, and had plenty of experience. He was pretty much maxed out potential wise.

Sorry I dont jump up and down or run around my house doing cartwheels when a rookie has a good game, or decide to annoit him the next franchise QB. All he's doing for me is meeting expectations. Call me ignorant if you want, but I disagree with you.

Being on of the more NFL ready QBs coming out of college is a light compliment. Most QBs are way away from being actually ready.

Watching a guy in college play for a bad team is much different than watching him in the NFL.

[Dr. Lecter]

Led to my point.

Would Jacob and these other RB's be getting in the secondary so often if we had Ngata or Simms instead?

There is no way around it with Whitner.. Right now, he's very ordinary and sure as hell aint playing like a top 8 pick.

He had ONE bad game.

And yes, Simms is not a great run stopper. And without Whitner, who knows how many deep long passes would have been completed?

[The last buffalo fan]

Donte W > poo = Roy W :sorry: PAt.

[Kerr]

SOME people give WR's three years to develop, and thats not when they show the same play that this kid did to start their career. This is different, Edwards was widely known going into the Draft as one of the more NFL ready QB's. He was smart, quick release, good size, enough arm strength, and had plenty of experience. He was pretty much maxed out potential wise.



The same was said about payton manning, and no i'm not calling Trent the next payton manning. All i'm saying is that the level of expectations for a rookie should be minimal. Not every rookie qb will get lucky like big ben with a great supporting cast around him. Payton Manning got drafted by a rebuilding team, and it started with him. His rookie season was up and down. Trent is a rookie qb learning on the job and he's done a decent job at it. Yesterday wasn't his best game, but those are typical rookie woes that plague many rookies. The bar shouldn't be set high for rookies. You'll come out dissapointed if you do. In your case, you expect to Trent to play great games consistently, who doesn't? But realistically, it's likely not going to happen. You shouldn't expect it to happen.

[Borosai]

I agree with most (if not all) of what the OP wrote. The Bills have a good, young nucleus of players to build a team around, but much is still needed. Hopefully they can bring in some veterans and more talent in the draft, so there's no need to jump off a cliff just yet.

However, doesn't it always feel the same every year? The Bills finish as an average team, with decent potential, but they always end up in the same spot the following year. The personnel turnover rate seems too high, which prevents them from actually building upon any previous success. Just my opinion, of course.

[feelthepain]

I think the Bills aren't as far along as some Bill fans think, I know Bill fans think because Miami had a ton of injuries the Bills are far better, but the fact is Miami had about as bad a year with injuriers as a team could have. Buffalo has had a lot of injuries too, but those injuries were/are to players that hardly impact the Bills ability to win games. Other then Posluzny there really isn't a player the Bills miss, at least talent wise due to injury.

[Novacane]

I think the Bills aren't as far along as some Bill fans think, I know Bill fans think because Miami had a ton of injuries the Bills are far better, but the fact is Miami had about as bad a year with injuriers as a team could have. Buffalo has had a lot of injuries too, but those injuries were/are to players that hardly impact the Bills ability to win games. Other then Posluzny there really isn't a player the Bills miss, at least talent wise due to injury.


:rofl:

[Mahdi]

I think the Bills aren't as far along as some Bill fans think, I know Bill fans think because Miami had a ton of injuries the Bills are far better, but the fact is Miami had about as bad a year with injuriers as a team could have. Buffalo has had a lot of injuries too, but those injuries were/are to players that hardly impact the Bills ability to win games. Other then Posluzny there really isn't a player the Bills miss, at least talent wise due to injury.
You are not completely far off here actually.... I agree that our injuries were not ones that really hurt us in the end because the players that replaced them were better IMO, aside from DiGorgio.

However I think the Bills ARE far along compared to last year but we just hit a wall when it comes to playmaking. This team's ceiling is pretty low and once we get there our talent is never enough to surpass it.

The good news is that that ceiling can be raised significantly with the addition of 3 players. A WR, TE, and C. Our defense will improve dramatically when our offense keeps them off the field more.

[DraftBoy]

Being on of the more NFL ready QBs coming out of college is a light compliment. Most QBs are way away from being actually ready.

Watching a guy in college play for a bad team is much different than watching him in the NFL.


Yea I know its a compliment and I meant it as such. Yes there is a difference, but Im not talking about his stats or results when I say that. You look for improvements from college to NFL. Edwards had enough skill already to be a solid NFL starter, but needed to take more steps forward in order to become a franchise QB, to date he has not shown those steps. He's the same QB he was in college, which isnt a horrible thing. Just not what Im looking for in a franchise QB. If you want to call him a rookie and judge him as such thats fine, but Im not lowering my standards based on a guys experience level. You give the guy a fair amount of time to meet your expectations and if he doesnt after 2 or 3 years, its time to begin to look elsewhere. Does anybody seriously have a problem with that? I also however think we should constantly be developing players at every position regardless of our established starter. Especially projects, you never know when injuries happen or when you'll find a diamond in the rough, plus having the extra trade bait is great.

[DraftBoy]

The same was said about payton manning, and no i'm not calling Trent the next payton manning. All i'm saying is that the level of expectations for a rookie should be minimal. Not every rookie qb will get lucky like big ben with a great supporting cast around him. Payton Manning got drafted by a rebuilding team, and it started with him. His rookie season was up and down. Trent is a rookie qb learning on the job and he's done a decent job at it. Yesterday wasn't his best game, but those are typical rookie woes that plague many rookies. The bar shouldn't be set high for rookies. You'll come out dissapointed if you do. In your case, you expect to Trent to play great games consistently, who doesn't? But realistically, it's likely not going to happen. You shouldn't expect it to happen.

See my other post, I dont lower the bar for any player or raise it, they have more than ample time to meet those goals. They play well they get accolades, they play like crap they get called out for it. You could be a rooke ir a 15 yr veteran, I dont care either way. Your a Buffalo Bill now, its time to play like one should.

[patmoran2006]

See my other post, I dont lower the bar for any player or raise it, they have more than ample time to meet those goals. They play well they get accolades, they play like crap they get called out for it. You could be a rooke ir a 15 yr veteran, I dont care either way. Your a Buffalo Bill now, its time to play like one should.
Agreed for the most part.

HOWEVER, you're also wrong. There IS a difference between a blue chip first rounder compared to later rounds.. He's PAID like a Franchise player, his standard should be to perform like one.

For all the money he's earning, George Wilson when you compare SALARY and CAP SPACE to just "performance" has been a MUCH better safety this year. Wilson has gotten beat bad a few times and missed some tackles (as has Whitner) but he also has made some BIG plays, something Whitner is lacking in a huge way. IN fact, hasn't Wilson scored two defensive touchdowns this year?

[DraftBoy]

Agreed for the most part.

HOWEVER, you're also wrong. There IS a difference between a blue chip first rounder compared to later rounds.. He's PAID like a Franchise player, his standard should be to perform like one.

For all the money he's earning, George Wilson when you compare SALARY and CAP SPACE to just "performance" has been a MUCH better safety this year. Wilson has gotten beat bad a few times and missed some tackles (as has Whitner) but he also has made some BIG plays, something Whitner is lacking in a huge way. IN fact, hasn't Wilson scored two defensive touchdowns this year?


I didnt say there wasnt a difference however once they are the starter (not due to extreme circumstances) they are expected to play like one, point blank period. No ifs ands or buts about it.

[colin]

wilson
greer
scott
lehnard
digiorgio
ellison
mario haggen
kyle williams

above are guys who get a lot of pt on our D. not one of them would ever be considered a starter in the nfl but for injuries. you can say what you want about our DEs and other DTs or DBs (or one LB) but the above guys stink. we suck on d because we have a bunch of scrubs. if we get anyone who can play LB, maybe a DT, and one DB (i think we might go for a day 1 guy at CB) and we might just have a D that can play.

on O we have

butler
royal
f jackson
reed
parrish
gains

on the field for nearly every play. those guys either stink or are role players for certain plays sometimes.

our best players on O are
walker
peters
dock
edwards
lynch
evans

3 are o linemen, 2 are rookies, and evan is a little wr who can't go up and get the ball.

every team has guys they could upgrade, we simply have way too many. i think our core of solid young guys will be good to build on, but we need one interior guy on the line, at least 1 guy who can catch, and a new OC. our young skill players will be much better next year.

we need about 7 or 8 new guys, but we can get 3 of them or more in the first 3 rounds of the draft, and we can grab the rest in later rounds or FA.

briggs and a WR/TE who can play in FA will make a HUGE impact on our team. we are pretty close right now.

[G. Host]

JASON PETERS
If anybody doesn't think Peters should be extended immediately, just look at how this offense looked once he went out with his injury. BEfore they sign a single free agent this offseason, he should be locked up FIRST..

He already IS locked up for 5 years. Should they make him the first OT signed for 10 years? Do not think that is allowed under collective bargaining contract.

[Kerr]

See my other post, I dont lower the bar for any player or raise it, they have more than ample time to meet those goals. They play well they get accolades, they play like crap they get called out for it. You could be a rooke ir a 15 yr veteran, I dont care either way. Your a Buffalo Bill now, its time to play like one should.


What does being a buffalo bill have to do with being a rookie? It doesn't matter if you're a buffalo bill. A rookie is a rookie. Rookies are expected commit mistakes whether they are a first rounder or not. It comes with the territory. Whether you realize it or not, you are raising the bar for any player because they are a buffalo bills inspite them being a rookie.
Btw Jim Kelly didn't exactly have a great rookie season in the nfl. My guess is he didn't do enough to convince you he was franchise material back then.

[G. Host]

Btw Jim Kelly didn't exactly have a great rookie season in the nfl. My guess is he didn't do enough to convince you he was franchise material back then.

Kelly wasn't even a rookie as noted in his Hall of Fame accomplishments with Houston Gamblers.

[Kerr]

Kelly wasn't even a rookie as noted in his Hall of Fame accomplishments with Houston Gamblers.


He was an nfl rookie. It was his first year in the nfl.

[DraftBoy]

What does being a buffalo bill have to do with being a rookie? It doesn't matter if you're a buffalo bill. A rookie is a rookie. Rookies are expected commit mistakes whether they are a first rounder or not. It comes with the territory. Whether you realize it or not, you are raising the bar for any player because they are a buffalo bills inspite them being a rookie.
Btw Jim Kelly didn't exactly have a great rookie season in the nfl. My guess is he didn't do enough to convince you he was franchise material back then.
:rofl:

You didnt read my post, your simply inferred what you wanted from it, thats fine though. Have a Merry Christmas!

[Kerr]

:rofl:

You didnt read my post, your simply inferred what you wanted from it, thats fine though. Have a Merry Christmas!


Yes I did, it doesn't make any sense. You contradict yourself. I also read the part that anyone who's cutting edwards slack because he's a rookie is only saying it because he's their fav player. Could it be because they're realistic and support the qb?