Forked Thread: Isn't Ralph Wilson the ultimate problem with this team?

[YardRat]

Forked from: Isn't Ralph Wilson the ultimate problem with this team? (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?postid=2264344)


Of course Ralph is the problem.

Take out all the other variables, and he is the constant.

Some scientist you are.

:rolleyes:

Is Ralph the only constant?

Let's take this a step further and include all the variables...including the home economic region.

Ralph and the Bills won AFL championships in the mid-sixties, but even if you feel that 'doesn't count' that's fine and I'll roll with it.

Buffalo Sabres...The Knox Brothers...0 championships. Tagged with the 'cheap' label for years. John Rigas...0 championships and basically embezzled his way into ownership and then prison. Tom Golisano...0 championships, went with young, unproven talent, hasn't really broke the bank on new players, and has been labeled as cheap because of recent FA defections.

Buffalo Braves...Paul Snyder...0 championships...Sold his soul, the team, and Buffalo's presence in the NBA down the river for a couple of million bucks. John Y. Brown...0 championships...Only bought the Braves so he could leverage a deal for the Celtics. Gutted the team to pay Snyder and screwed the city.

Buffalo Bisons (not one of the big four really, but we were close)...Bob Rich...Had the finish line to MLB in his sights and then backed off because of lack of financial feasibility. Obviously you can't win a championship if you're not even interested in investing in trying.

Buffalo Bills...We all know the story here.

Bottom line...Three professional franchises out of the big four. 0 combined championships. Ralph never owned the Sabres, the Braves, or the Bisons.

But all are based in Buffalo.

So...Is it the owner, or is it the economic region the team is tied to that is the constant in the lack of championships, or even consistently successful teams?

[Buffatexas]

I really dont think you can say that either of the two have a direct impact on whether a team wins a championship. Take a look at the cities that have not (unless you count the afl days and the first 5 super bowls) Please correct me if I am wrong as I am not an NBA fan and a regional MLB fan

Phoenix, Atlanta, Cleveland, San Diego, KC (arguably one of the best owners in football) Minnesota,...bigger cities,arguably better owners...

[YardRat]

Phoenix has won an NBA championship, Minnesota and Atlanta World Series, and KC a Super Bowl.

The Suns used to be the only game in town, Minnesota and Atlanta have both lost NHL franchises, as has KC. Cleveland has lost both NHL and NFL teams.

Buffalo simply doesn't have the economic structure in place to give an owner the financial support he or she may need to keep up with the big boys. Rich was an intelligent enough businessman to figure that out before he got in too deep.

[Nighthawk]

Phoenix has won an NBA championship, Minnesota and Atlanta World Series, and KC a Super Bowl.

The Suns used to be the only game in town, Minnesota and Atlanta have both lost NHL franchises, as has KC. Cleveland has lost both NHL and NFL teams.

Buffalo simply doesn't have the economic structure in place to give an owner the financial support he or she may need to keep up with the big boys. Rich was an intelligent enough businessman to figure that out before he got in too deep.

Economics does not mean you have to have stupid people running your organizations. Put smart people in place and have them run the organizations like they should be run and not like a circus and I would be happy. The problem with the Bills and Sabres is their management and their incompetence, it has nothing to do with the economy.

[YardRat]

Economics does not mean you have to have stupid people running your organizations. Put smart people in place and have them run the organizations like they should be run and not like a circus and I would be happy. The problem with the Bills and Sabres is their management and their incompetence, it has nothing to do with the economy.

Several different owners of all the professional franchises in Buffalo sports history, the modern era.

Not one championship.

The Sabres have had three different owners...Three different 'styles'...Same results.

The common thread isn't the owner...It's the region.

Ralph brought in Chuck Knox when he was fired by the Rams. Hi-profile, successful coach...No ring. The Knox's brought in Scotty Bowman. He won everywhere he ever went...Except for Buffalo. The Braves had Jack Ramsey, who led Portland to a championship. No trophies for them either. Tom Donahoe came here as a saviour, and left a tool.

Successful businessmen understand expenses can't exceed revenues. They also understand how to run their businesses based on the economic demographics of the specific marketplace they are doing business in. They can't expect to spend money that they know they aren't going to earn to begin with.

It isn't a coincidence most owners of Buffalo sports teams are labeled as cheap at one time or another...It's a result of the marketplace they are trying to function in.

[Nighthawk]

Several different owners of all the professional franchises in Buffalo sports history, the modern era.

Not one championship.

The Sabres have had three different owners...Three different 'styles'...Same results.

The common thread isn't the owner...It's the region.

Ralph brought in Chuck Knox when he was fired by the Rams. Hi-profile, successful coach...No ring. The Knox's brought in Scotty Bowman. He won everywhere he ever went...Except for Buffalo. The Braves had Jack Ramsey, who led Portland to a championship. No trophies for them either. Tom Donahoe came here as a saviour, and left a tool.

Successful businessmen understand expenses can't exceed revenues. They also understand how to run their businesses based on the economic demographics of the specific marketplace they are doing business in. They can't expect to spend money that they know they aren't going to earn to begin with.

It isn't a coincidence most owners of Buffalo sports teams are labeled as cheap at one time or another...It's a result of the marketplace they are trying to function in.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. The Sabres are not cheap...they spent up to a few million from the cap. The problem with them is that they don't have good management and blew it on the resigning front and then not bringing in any talent/leadership/grit/heart to replace what they lost. The Knoxes paid for LaFontaine, Hawerchuk, Mogilny, Simpson, Fuhr...they just didn't get it done on the management front. The Bills also fail on the management side and THAT is the reason we have not reached the playoffs in the past 10 years. When we had good GMs...Polian & Butler...this team was going to Super Bowls. Your theory is way off base. Put the right people in the front office and in the coaching positions and you CAN win a championship in Buffalo!

[YardRat]

The Knoxes paid for LaFontaine, Hawerchuk, Mogilny, Simpson, Fuhr...they just didn't get it done on the management front.

It was the management that made the decisions to bring those players to begin with, not the Knoxes.


Put the right people in the front office and in the coaching positions and you CAN win a championship in Buffalo!

Scotty Bowman. How can you not get more 'right people' than that in the NHL?<!-- / message -->

[Nighthawk]

It was the management that made the decisions to bring those players to begin with, not the Knoxes.



Scotty Bowman. How can you not get more 'right people' than that in the NHL?<!-- / message -->

Scotty was great and they made him GM along with being HC. It was his first time in this role and it didn't work out...it doesn't mean it was the wrong move, just the wrong time. Thus, management failed.

When the Knoxes brought in those guys, the coaching was mediocre. Thus it was a management problem.

Having the right people in the front office of an organization has a big effect on success. Look at the Pats, Colts...hell, you can even look at the Anaheim Ducks...they brought in Brian Burke and won the Cup.

[Buffatexas]

so lets look at the coaching staff. As an example, Tony Dungy coaches the Bucs to consecutive NFC title games and loses both. Owner/whomever is sick of no super bowl, fires dungy, hires gruden. Same team, different staff, the win the SB (albeit they had the Raiders offensive playbook as callahan was too much of a dumb a$$ to alter the game plan)

so, back to the drawing board for us. Fire Jauron and the staff. Who do you bring in? Cowher? Billick? Pete Carroll? I havent a clue on that one. I cant decide what would be better here. A retread, promotion of current staff or a coach out of the college ranks? I cant see anyone coming here except maybe for Schottenheimer, ties to the organization(I think he played for us at one point in time) Even then, having Marty only guarantees us a few years before this board explodes with things like "all we can do is make the wild card game and then we lose, fire Marty!"...:)

[Ebenezer]

It's simple...

We are Buffalo.....we are jinxed and we suck - nothing more than a boil on world.

[Night Train]

It's simple...

We are Buffalo.....we are jinxed and we suck - nothing more than a boil on world.

LOL. Precisely. God hates us.

That reminds me. I'm late on my self loathing dues.

[Ebenezer]

LOL. Precisely. God hates us.

That reminds me. I'm late on my self loathing dues.
Tell me anything good that came out of Buffalo since McKinley was assassinated?

[Night Train]

The Sabres problem is Larry Quinn was placed back in power, since Tom G. knew nothing about hockey upon buying the team. Bad player decisions followed as expected. Quinn couldn't pick between Gordie Howe or Morris Titanic if his life depended on it.

Ralph is the ultimate nice guy who never had any football sense. Plus he periodically sticks his nose into personnel decisons which usually bombed. RJ anyone ?
He basically was the blind squirrel finding the nut when Lou Saban, Chuck Knox & Bill Polian were hired. Saban was a headcase but Knox and Polian were run out of town when Ralph decided to close the snapper purse and meddle. Butler was brought here by Polian and did OK until he mailed in his last draft. Since then, it's been a swing and a miss.

[Ebenezer]

The Sabres problem is Larry Quinn was placed back in power, since Tom G. knew nothing about hockey upon buying the team. Bad player decisions followed as expected. Quinn couldn't pick between Gordie Howe or Morris Titanic if his life depended on it.

Ralph is the ultimate nice guy who never had any football sense. Plus he periodically sticks his nose into personnel decisons which usually bombed. RJ anyone ?
He basically was the blind squirrel finding the nut when Lou Saban, Chuck Knox & Bill Polian were hired. Saban was a headcase but Knox and Polian were run out of town when Ralph decided to close the snapper purse and meddle. Butler was brought here by Polian and did OK until he mailed in his last draft. Since then, it's been a swing and a miss.
He got lucky that Terry Bledsoe took ill and Polian had to take over.

Polian was subsequently fired for fighting with RW's daughter.

[Historian]

It's Ralph.

Jeff Littman has had far too much influence on the day to day affairs for way too long now.

Remember Polian's quote? (re: Wolford)

"Didn't happen on my watch!"

Funny you bring up Knox too Rat.

Walked off the job here. Why?

Wouldn't match the Cousineau offer.
Wouldn't pay Cribbs.
Wouldn't pay Butler.

There's a pattern of behavior here, and it's happened over and over throughout the past 50 years.

[Historian]

And Snyder's Braves are a grape to grapefruit comparison.

Although, he built a powerhouse from an expansion team in five years, he was a local businessman who was in way over his head with the NBA.

[YardRat]

It's Ralph.

Jeff Littman has had far too much influence on the day to day affairs for way too long now.

Remember Polian's quote? (re: Wolford)

"Didn't happen on my watch!"

Funny you bring up Knox too Rat.

Walked off the job here. Why?

Wouldn't match the Cousineau offer.
Wouldn't pay Cribbs.
Wouldn't pay Butler.

There's a pattern of behavior here, and it's happened over and over throughout the past 50 years.

But not just with the football team, Hist...

It's happened with the Sabres and the Braves also, and baseball didn't get far off the ground before bailing.

One franchise...fine, point out the owner. Every franchise? There's a bigger common denominator underneath.

The Bills team did win championships, when Buffalo was a one-horse town. Nobody's won anything ever since. It's not a coincidence.

[Historian]

This isn't a baseball town.

Not with the mighty Yankees a mere 400 miles away.

The Sabres have had their chances. They've been to two cup finals in different eras, and several conference finals, again in different eras.

Look at their overall record. (I don't have it in front of me at work)

I'll bet they're over .500 for their history.

And they never threatened to skip town.

[jamze132]

Forked from: Isn't Ralph Wilson the ultimate problem with this team? (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?postid=2264344)



Is Ralph the only constant?

Let's take this a step further and include all the variables...including the home economic region.

Ralph and the Bills won AFL championships in the mid-sixties, but even if you feel that 'doesn't count' that's fine and I'll roll with it.

Buffalo Sabres...The Knox Brothers...0 championships. Tagged with the 'cheap' label for years. John Rigas...0 championships and basically embezzled his way into ownership and then prison. Tom Golisano...0 championships, went with young, unproven talent, hasn't really broke the bank on new players, and has been labeled as cheap because of recent FA defections.

Buffalo Braves...Paul Snyder...0 championships...Sold his soul, the team, and Buffalo's presence in the NBA down the river for a couple of million bucks. John Y. Brown...0 championships...Only bought the Braves so he could leverage a deal for the Celtics. Gutted the team to pay Snyder and screwed the city.

Buffalo Bisons (not one of the big four really, but we were close)...Bob Rich...Had the finish line to MLB in his sights and then backed off because of lack of financial feasibility. Obviously you can't win a championship if you're not even interested in investing in trying.

Buffalo Bills...We all know the story here.

Bottom line...Three professional franchises out of the big four. 0 combined championships. Ralph never owned the Sabres, the Braves, or the Bisons.

But all are based in Buffalo.

So...Is it the owner, or is it the economic region the team is tied to that is the constant in the lack of championships, or even consistently successful teams?
So it was the city of Buffalo's fault Norwood missed that Super Bowl winning FG?

[Historian]

Good, committed ownership can take a floundering franchise, and turn it into a powerhouse.

Look at:

Denver-A perrenial loser before Bowlen took over.
Tampa Bay-Nuff said.
NEW ENGLAND. -The laughingstock of football back during the Lisa Olsen thing....now they're on to their 4th SB win.

Can go the other way too: Just look at the fish since Huizenga took over from the Robbies.

Economics has something to do with it, but not much in football....not with the revenue sharing, etc.

It's what you do with that revenue that sets you apart, IMHO.

[Night Train]

So it was the city of Buffalo's fault Norwood missed that Super Bowl winning FG?

Dead on. We had our chances and didn't convert.

Todays Cap age is a completely different playing field, which the Bills have bungled over the last 8 years. It started out OK in the mid to late 90's when players like Paup,Speilman,Ted Washington etc. were brought in. A tough D always keeps you in games. ( Something the current admin seems to have forgotten )

With continuous poor coaching hires and a leadership void (GM) at the top, we've been passed by most teams. We're capable of drafting talent but the constant philosophy of trying to drive the square peg into the round hole plagues this franchise. ( poor schemes wasting talent ) . The recent Free Agent signings as a whole has been below average.

This team desperately needs a dynamic football man to point this team in the proper direction. Unfortunately, I see us settling for the familiar face who already has an office here. It's about Ralph sleeping well at night and not taking the next step to compete for the playoffs.

Somehow, we have to try and win IN SPITE of Ralph.