JP Vs TE

[yordad]

FIRST: I want to make it clear I like TE. I think he can be good. My point is, JP is currently better and TE has done nothing to take his job.

I like to incorporate playing time into some statistical comparisons. For example, you can’t really compare season passing yards for a guy that played one game to a guy that played 16. All you can really do is take the average of the guy with 16 games.

For this reason I will be using the fact JP played approximately 25.58 quarter and TE played approximately 38.42 quarters in many of the stats that follow. It give a more accurate per-game comparison because they split some games.

Many of these aren’t points, just counter points. What I mean is, in some cases the statistical difference isn’t very large. And, probably isn’t worth mentioning. The reason they are mentioned, is because I have heard JP haters use similar concocted “material” against him.

If you want clarification on how something was calculated just ask.

JP didn’t have a good year, but he was clearly the better QB.

JP’s passer rating on year = 76.9
Trent’s passer rating on the year = 70.4

And, I think the two biggest stats are yards per attempt, and competition %. I feel this way, because this is what helps you move the chains.
JP’s = 63.4% , and 6.9 yards per attempt.
TE’ = 56.1%, and 6.1 yards per attempt.
SO much for the “TE is more accurate argument”.

I’ll add another significant stat that keeps D’s honest and moves the chains….
JP rushing yards per game (110 total) = 17.2, and 5.5 per attempt.
TE Rushing yards per game (49 total) = 5.1, and 3.5 per attempt.

JP played better teams

Broken down into quarters, TE’s average opponent had 8.06 wins on the year. JP’s opponents had 8.53 wins on the year. So don’t try this one.

The Bills offense scores more with JP.

Trent (125 pts)= 3.25 per quarter, or 13.0 per game
JP (90 pts) = 3.52 per quarter, or 14.1

Before you say, “what is one point”, I’ll give my answer. Answer: the margin of victory for the Cowboys on Monday night. Besides, I’m not really trying to make a point here. Really just a counter point on the things I have heard.

Lynch’s rushing production with both Qbs:

With JP at QB Lynch’s YPC = 4.3
With TE at QB Lynch’s YPC = 3.8

That is .5 yards. In a game of inches, that in 18 inches for every carry. I speculate that JP’s arm strength and his down field passing threat has a lot to do with this.

JP Played himself out of a job vs. Jacksonville?

JP’s passer rating on year = 76.9
JP’s passer rating in Jags game that got him benched = 67.81
Trent’s passer rating on the year = 70.4
Trent’s passer rating on the year minus his best game = 64.83

So, if you take out Trent’s one good game verse the worst team in the league, his passer rating in 2.98 points lower then the game that got JP benched. And, if you count it, his passer rating is only 2.59 points higher then the game that got JP benched but still 6.5 points lower then JP’s on the year not taking out any bad games. Complicated?

I‘ll say it another way. Trent’s combined 34.42 quarters (his year minus the one game) QB rating is worst then the 4 quarters that got JP benched. Plus I will add that A-train got the start in Jacksonville. I think that is worth three points right there.

Win and Losses are all that matters.

Before you say “wins and losses mean everything“, all I can say is let me know when Trent starts returning punts. Or starts on defense. Wins is a team stat. Not a QB stat.

But, while we are on the subject, be objective. Trent played the first game against the Pats. And JP won the game against the Jets. You can’t use the argument “JP got the reps all week for the Pats”, then turn around and say “the Jets game planned for TE all week”. Because the opposite could be said in both cases.

That puts JP at 3-4, and TE at 4-5. What do you think JP’s record projects out to if he were to have started two more games? The same as TE. Again, not that it matters because I don’t think QB was the main problem.

So, how about money time?

Trent 4th quarter QB rating = 34.2
JP 4th quarter QB rating = 86.1

Shocking?

Arm Strength?

Isn’t this a significant trait to have for quarter backing in Buffalo at the Ralph? With the winds? JP’s football fast ball was clocked higher than TE's at the combine, but did you really need to know that? I think it is obvious JP has more zip.

TE completed a long ball to Lee against the Ravens. The ball started at the Buffalo 29 yard line. It hit Lee at the 34. The ball flew 37 yards in the air from the line of scrimmage. That was his second longest completed throw, and it was a little wobbly and short. His longest was against the ‘Fins. It flew 42 yards from the line of scrimmage. JP has accomplished greater feats several times. Most notably his 45 yards from the line of scrimmage against the Texans in ’06, while being hit by three Texans as he threw. Or the 42 yards from the LOS to Lee against the Jets this year, into 28 MPH winds. These are off the top of my head.

TE is better at moving the chains?

How is that even possible? JP completes a higher % of passes, and he gets more yards per attempt. Also Lynch runs for more yards per carry when JP hands him the ball.

JP’s third down QB rating = 71.8
TE’s third down QB rating = 56.1

And, we all know who is more likely to run for a first down. JP.

Game Plans and coaching favored TE, but now we are getting a new OC.

The game plans were called to Trent’s strengths when he was starting. And, the game plans were called to Trent’s strengths when JP was starting.

We hired Mike Martz’s assistant. We had speed at wide out. We drafted a receiving RB. We got rid of the smash mouth FB. We added an H-back, which is basically a FB that never carries the ball. We had a strong armed mobile QB.

Then we decided to dink and dunk with the rookie QB? It makes zero sense.

Trent is younger, so he should start?

Why? He is only two years younger. What ever happened to experience being a good thing?

Wouldn’t the argument that TE is younger be in favor of JP? We have had him for a while. We have endured learning curve. And, when he is about to start fulfilling potential you want to get rid of him? Or start him on a BS game by game basis? I’m not saying TE has reached his potential, that would be dumb. But with a QB with as much drive, grit, integrity, desire, fire, passion, respect, work ethic, determination, confidence, and physical tools as Losman has, you can’t dump him now for a complete unproven.

If you think Trent will be better some day, fine. Just wait until he is before you start him. Especially while we are trying to make a playoff run.

But TE is Poised

Poise? That’s your argument? “He looks poised”? Who cares how he looks? Looking poised = nothing.

Closing argument

TE's numbers aren't bad for a young rookie. But, he didn't come close to lighten things up. He didn't do anything to take the job from the team captain we have been putting though countless hardships, twisted a tweaked since he was drafted. Especially not when JP's body of work has consistently improved since breaking his leg as a rookie.

He has had less then two years worth of playing time (under 128 quarters played). Why would any bills fan want to toss him right when we are about to see the fruits of our labor? All that money you spent on tickets? Gone. It is the most important positions of the team. Why would you want to start over. We've been rebuilding for a decade, I thought we were building now.

JP has continuously said, "We can win with the guys we have here right now". Continuity breeds consistency. The only thing consistent about JP’s career so far is there has been no continuity.

I’d like to add that although all these stats are in JP’s favor, Trent has had the privilege/benefit of working with a more gelled line, and players more familiar with what is going on this year. 8.33 quarters for JP followed by 18.42 quarters TE. Then 17.25 quarters JP, followed by 20 quarters TE.

Bottomline: The offense produced no better with TE. I think JP was benched so Fairchild and Co. could have a scapegoat. At the time, it looked like the Bills where in no way a playoff team. So maybe JP's contract escalators played in also.

I had in mind to put up more stats. After all, the off season isn't going away any time soon. It is getting late, but I could have taken months to do this.

Basically I can put up a gazillion stats/number and have put up many. Your a Bills fan (well except for one closet Bills fan who thinks he likes the Dolphins, LOL), I'm a Bills fan. I don’t think I changed anyone’s mind, but I feel better. If you got this far, thanks for listening.



Feel free to respond. I’m not advocating you criticize, but if you do so adult like, I can take it. If you agree, all the better.

[RedEyE]

Great post that really delves into the depths of the season and the QB situation.

My biggest arguement with JP is that he was in his 4th NFL season, he regressed from the previous year, and really did nothing to seperate himself from a 3rd round drafted rookie. From a coaching perspective: You can either evolve your rookie "prodigy" and allow him to make mistakes now with a little OJT, and hope that he gets better sooner than later, or continue to let your veteran QB make the same mistakes he's made for 3 consecutive years.

With that being said, I agree with what you're saying that clearly the team was equally inept when either QB was under center.

I guess, honestly, it really doesn't matter to me either way. I don't see anything special from TE or JP. Neither one of them does anything for me.

[Mr. Cynical]

JP vs. TE?

TE won.
JP lost.

:up:

[Meathead]

great analysis thanks for the effort

i agree that the biggest monkey wrench in this whole thing is jps regression. i was solidly in his corner and strongly believe the coaches did the right thing by giving him another shot even when edwards was ready to play following his hand injury. however jps poor play for 3.5 quarters against miami and his crap performance in jax (played like a rookie when they desperately needed a veteran) pretty much convinced me his regression was chronic and a gamble had to be taken on an impressive so far but inexperienced edwards to try to save the season

of course we now know and see in hindsight that edwards also regressed from his early form to actually underperform from where jp ended up. and its quite obvious now that edwards has to overcome what looks like a serious handicap in bad weather play. but that was impossible to predict and installing him as the starter after jp failed in jax was the right move at the time

now the huge question is how much was jps own regression and how much was a flawed offensive system that was continuing to break down? the fact that both qbs regressed under the system is one clue. as is the fact that edwards did reasonably well at first until opposing dcs got some film on him then he began to regress badly. but the fact that jp had been steadily progressing last year under the same system and yet still was not able to do significantly better than edwards is troubling

one thing i will never understand is why in the hell didnt the coaches just take a shot at letting jp play his game. let him roll out and make plays on the move, leverage his excellent passing on the run and adlib skills, and use his legs to get some yardage. jp improved considerably in his pocket passing but thats never been his forte and they refused to try to take advantage of what he does well. maddening

sadly we probably will never know what would have happened with that here in buffalo. despite obvious flaws in edwards game they are virtually assured to go with him to start next season. even if jp sticks next year it would take both an edwards injury/collapse and an extended jp resurgence to bring him back into the long term picture. it could happen but its a long shot

i like jp, dont understand all the hate for him, and wish him well. but as a football fan i sure hope he doesnt go someplace else where they give him the chance to play his style of football and he succeeds. that would really suck some serious ass

[TacklingDummy]

Trent looks like he has it, JP after 4 years doesn't. Time to move on.

Maybe you can follow JP to his new team.

[Crisis]

You should compare Losman's first 38.42 quarters to Trent's.

You're comparing a rookie to a 4th year vet.

[Night Train]

FIRST: I want to make it clear, I saw the horse move ! :deadhorse

[YardRat]

TE - 10 games, 8 INT's, (.8 per game) - 4 fumbles, 0 lost, total = 8 and .8 per game. Sacks = 12, 1.2 per game. 269 attempts, 20 negative plays, 1 every 13.45 attempts.

JP - 8 games, 6 ints (.75 per game) - 5 fumbles, 2 lost, total = 8 and 1.0 per game. Sacks = 14, 1.2 per game. 175 attempts, 22 negative plays, 1 every 7.95 attempts.

JP career - 37 games, 29 INT's ( 1.3 per game) - 26 fumbles, 13 lost total = 1.1 per game. Sacks = 88, 2.4 per game. 837 attempts, 130 negative plays, 1 every 6.43 attempts.

[shelby]

JP wants out, so the point is moot, but i appreciate the effort you put into this post.

[Philagape]

Trent's numbers were hurt by his late-season slump, so statistically, JP had the better overall season.

But it's not about comparing their numbers this season. They both were bad. Saying A's numbers sucked less than B is no way to pick a quarterback. Sucking less is still sucking. When both suck, the question is, which one is more likely to get better? Both played like rookies, but only of them was a rookie. When a rookie is even comparable to a veteran, that doesn't speak well of the veteran.

It's about looking at where they are in their careers and evaluating their upside based on their attributes. Trent is smarter and more versatile, therefore he is more likely to improve. JP showed no improvement from last year, even though he was in the same system with a better line. His weaknesses are the kind you see in career busts, of which there have been many. It's been proven time and time again that a QB's mental skills are more important than physical skills; the mind can learn, but the body is already at its peak. Trent has both.
JP had enough of a chance, and he failed. He played himself out of his job with bad passes and bad decisions.

"Continuity breeds consistency." I don't want consistency of JP. He's consistently inconsistent. He consistently mixes in bad passes and bad decisions with a few great plays. JP said we can win with the current guys? No, we can't, because they're good enough, including JP.
The multitude of excuses that have been put up for JP shows he's a high-maintenance QB. So much else has to go right. He needs the right coordinator, the right receivers, the right line, etc. etc. etc. The QB's supposed to be a leader, not a follower. A good QB makes others around him better; if it's up to everyone else to make the QB play well, then the QB is worthless.
Better conditions and circumstances will improve a QB's numbers, but it won't IMPROVE THE QB. A QB is who he is no matter what else is around him.

And once again, there's the myth that Trent is "dink and dunk." JP dinked and dunked as much as Trent, both about 73 percent of the time. In the middle of the season, JP's D&D ratio was several percentage points higher. If JP's advantage is his long passing, there was no such advantage this year. As was pointed out above, Trent threw the ball as far as JP did, and while both of JP's completed bombs were underthrown, Trent's bomb against Miami was right on the money, in stride. And in medium-range passing, Trent blew away JP. He is more versatile. He had the two best passes of the season, the Miami bomb and the 30-yard clutch strike to set up the Redskins win. During the Miami game someone pointed out the variety of Trent's four TDs: bomb, rollout, over-the-middle dart, and fade. He can make every throw.
The edge that JP has physically is more than offset by the edge that Trent has mentally. People say we need JP's arm for the winter, but it's foolish to sacrifice the more important aspects of quarterbacking for most of the season. We had a cannon-armed QB in Bledsoe, and he failed too.
The inconsistency Trent showed is normal for a rookie and can improve with experience, which JP already had. Will it? I don't know. But I'll take the unknown over a proven failure. I'll take the total package over a few select attributes.

[shelby]

He's consistently inconsistent.
Best summary of JP i've ever read. That is the heart of the matter right there, y'all.

[HHURRICANE]

All the statistics in the world won't change the fact that my eye's saw one QB who was frantic and uncomfortable in the pocket and had a hard time executing a simple screen, where the other was willing to look down the pass rush attempting to make passes.

The funny part is if you ask every O-lineman who they would prefer as QB Trent would win hands down. When JP scored a TD he was looking around for players, when Trent scored a TD the whole o-line was bumping and patting him.

Rewatch the games. Different team with Trent on the field and I don't need stats to recognize that.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Yes he wants out. But I think the point is... The way this situation has been handled has actually devalued the Bills talent assets... Devalued JP's worth... Both on the roster AND in a trade scenario.

Nice job yordad. Of course you've been around long enough to know that "stats don't mean jack" when it comes to an opposing opinion.

I say hold JP to his final season... See what happens during training camp... See if he's needed to fill in... See what his trade value is at the deadline in '08. See If, by some miracle, he gets another chance to shine (with a competent OC), his value might even increase to a tag... or tag and trade.
:bullseye:
Here comes the neggy brigade. :fishy:

[chernobylwraiths]

FIRST: I want to make it clear, I saw the horse move ! :deadhorse

:rofl:

Nice!

[Novacane]

JP may be worth a franchise tag next year??? :roflmao: Give it up. Your dream is dead Draz.

[chernobylwraiths]

Some of those stats don't take into consideration two VERY bad weather games. Games in which the opposing QBs also had bad games. One of those games was one of the worst weather games I have seen in ten years, and I heard the wind was really gusting in the Giants game. Sure he needs to get used to playing in bad weather, but it is insane to expect anyone to play well in those situations. The Bills lost both of those games because they couldn't stop the other teams running game. QB play in that game was a wash.

Another thing not taken into consideration which was pointed out by several posters is the fact that JP is a veteran QB with over a season's worth of starts, but he barely beat out a rookie who was thrown into the fire against the best team in the league, some say the best team in league history. QBs generally need time to learn. Brady didn't play till his second year, nor did most of the greats. Manning had a terrible first year as did Aikman. Nobody expected Edwards to be even as good as he played, let alone be as good as Marino or Rothlisberger in their rookie seasons.

I want all the players for the Bills to succeed, but when given enough chances and they still don't, regardless of the circumstances, you have to get rid of them. How many chances is still a question that everyone will have their own answer for. IMO, Losman has had enough and Edwards has had far too few.

[Philagape]

And I'll also explain why poise is important.
Calmness shows a QB's mind is handling all of the motion that's happening around him: 3 to 5 receivers running routes, five lineman and others protecting you, 11 defenders trying to get in your way with some trying to kill you. All in four seconds or so.
They say that for the good QBs, the game slows down for them. Their brains are wired so that the chaos on the field makes sense to them. They get it. They have the "it." The way that is manifested is how composed they are.
When a QB is panicky and jittery, that means his mind is struggling to keep up with the action. The body is at the mercy of the mind. Overwhelmingly, it's the mind that makes something out of nothing and determines the quality of what a QB does. And it's a failure of the mind that usually leads to negative plays. A million-dollar arm is nothing when attached a two-cent brain.

[Wys Guy]

Closing argument

TE's numbers aren't bad for a young rookie.

TE's numbers are entirely predicated on one good game vs. Miami, 1-15 Miami that nearly had the first every winless 16-game season.

After that, Edwards numbers are right down there with a whole bunch of QBs that were highly touted and then left this league with footprints all over their booties. He was absolutely abysmal outside of that single game, at home.

That's a fact.

[Wys Guy]

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_extended="true">34.6 </TD><TD _extended="true">161 </TD><TD _extended="true">6.2 </TD><TD _extended="true">42 </TD><TD _extended="true">2 </TD><TD _extended="true">3 </TD><TD _extended="true">9 </TD><TD _extended="true">34.6 </TD><TD _extended="true">4 </TD><TD _extended="true">3 </TD><TD _extended="true">34 </TD><TD _extended="true">42.8 </TD><TR _extended="true"><TR class=ltblueback _extended="true"><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" width="20%" _extended="true">New York Jets (http://www.nfl.com/teams/newyorkjets/profile?team=NYJ) </TD><TD _extended="true">2 </TD><TD _extended="true">49 </TD><TD _extended="true">36 </TD><TD _extended="true">73.5 </TD><TD _extended="true">364 </TD><TD _extended="true">7.4 </TD><TD _extended="true">27 </TD><TD _extended="true">1 </TD><TD _extended="true">2 </TD><TD _extended="true">23 </TD><TD _extended="true">46.9 </TD><TD _extended="true">3 </TD><TD _extended="true">3 </TD><TD _extended="true">20 </TD><TD _extended="true">84.1 </TD><TR _extended="true"><TR class=whiteback _extended="true"><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" width="20%" _extended="true">Philadelphia Eagles (http://www.nfl.com/teams/philadelphiaeagles/profile?team=PHI) </TD><TD _extended="true">1 </TD><TD _extended="true">30 </TD><TD _extended="true">16 </TD><TD _extended="true">53.3 </TD><TD _extended="true">133 </TD><TD _extended="true">4.4 </TD><TD _extended="true">24 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">7 </TD><TD _extended="true">23.3 </TD><TD _extended="true">2 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">65.0 </TD><TR _extended="true"><TR class=ltblueback _extended="true"><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" width="20%" _extended="true">Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.nfl.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT) </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0.0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0.0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0.0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0.0 </TD><TR _extended="true"><TR class=whiteback _extended="true"><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" width="20%" _extended="true">Washington Redskins (http://www.nfl.com/teams/washingtonredskins/profile?team=WAS) </TD><TD _extended="true">1 </TD><TD _extended="true">36 </TD><TD _extended="true">22 </TD><TD _extended="true">61.1 </TD><TD _extended="true">257 </TD><TD _extended="true">7.1 </TD><TD _extended="true">54 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">10 </TD><TD _extended="true">27.8 </TD><TD _extended="true">3 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">0 </TD><TD _extended="true">82.8</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[chernobylwraiths]

TE's numbers are entirely predicated on one good game vs. Miami, 1-15 Miami that nearly had the first every winless 16-game season.

After that, Edwards numbers are right down there with a whole bunch of QBs that were highly touted and then left this league with footprints all over their booties. He was absolutely abysmal outside of that single game, at home.

That's a fact.

Yeah, he absolutely stunk in that first Jets game and the Washinton game.

So, let me get this straight, outside of that one really good home game, he was bad at home. Is that right?

[yordad]

You should compare Losman's first 38.42 quarters to Trent's.

You're comparing a rookie to a 4th year vet.No offense, but the is the worst excuss for choosing a starter I have ever heard. It is so bad, I don't think I even need to go into the reasons (but I will).

Great reason for keeping Trent (not that any one is advocating we don't). Great reason for aquiring him. And, a great reason for him to ride the pine.

By that theory we should start solid looking, high school prospects.

You start your best QB. The one that gives you the best chance to win. That is how football is played in my book.

You call plays to suit your best players strengths. You don't call plays then start the QB that fits them.

[chernobylwraiths]

No offense, but the is the worst excuss for choosing a starter I have ever heard. It is so bad, I don't think I even need to go into the reasons (but I will).

Great reason for keeping Trent (not that any one is advocating we don't). Great reason for aquiring him. And, a great reason for him to ride the pine.

By that theory we should start solid looking, high school prospects.

You start your best QB. The one that gives you the best chance to win. That is how football is played in my book.

You call plays to suit your best players strengths. You don't call plays then start the QB that fits them.


And if the players are fairly close, which I think your stats have pointed out, then you also look to the player with better upside. Even in football you have to look to the future.

[shelby]

Wait a minute....you mean to tell me the Bills have a future?
:shocked:


/sarcasm

[codabills]

"Trent's numbers were hurt by his late-season slump, so statistically, JP had the better overall season.

But it's not about comparing their numbers this season. They both were bad. Saying A's numbers sucked less than B is no way to pick a quarterback. Sucking less is still sucking. When both suck, the question is, which one is more likely to get better? Both played like rookies, but only of them was a rookie. When a rookie is even comparable to a veteran, that doesn't speak well of the veteran.

It's about looking at where they are in their careers and evaluating their upside based on their attributes. Trent is smarter and more versatile, therefore he is more likely to improve. JP showed no improvement from last year, even though he was in the same system with a better line. His weaknesses are the kind you see in career busts, of which there have been many. It's been proven time and time again that a QB's mental skills are more important than physical skills; the mind can learn, but the body is already at its peak. Trent has both.
JP had enough of a chance, and he failed. He played himself out of his job with bad passes and bad decisions.

"Continuity breeds consistency." I don't want consistency of JP. He's consistently inconsistent. He consistently mixes in bad passes and bad decisions with a few great plays. JP said we can win with the current guys? No, we can't, because they're good enough, including JP.
The multitude of excuses that have been put up for JP shows he's a high-maintenance QB. So much else has to go right. He needs the right coordinator, the right receivers, the right line, etc. etc. etc. The QB's supposed to be a leader, not a follower. A good QB makes others around him better; if it's up to everyone else to make the QB play well, then the QB is worthless.
Better conditions and circumstances will improve a QB's numbers, but it won't IMPROVE THE QB. A QB is who he is no matter what else is around him.

And once again, there's the myth that Trent is "dink and dunk." JP dinked and dunked as much as Trent, both about 73 percent of the time. In the middle of the season, JP's D&D ratio was several percentage points higher. If JP's advantage is his long passing, there was no such advantage this year. As was pointed out above, Trent threw the ball as far as JP did, and while both of JP's completed bombs were underthrown, Trent's bomb against Miami was right on the money, in stride. And in medium-range passing, Trent blew away JP. He is more versatile. He had the two best passes of the season, the Miami bomb and the 30-yard clutch strike to set up the Redskins win. During the Miami game someone pointed out the variety of Trent's four TDs: bomb, rollout, over-the-middle dart, and fade. He can make every throw.
The edge that JP has physically is more than offset by the edge that Trent has mentally. People say we need JP's arm for the winter, but it's foolish to sacrifice the more important aspects of quarterbacking for most of the season. We had a cannon-armed QB in Bledsoe, and he failed too.
The inconsistency Trent showed is normal for a rookie and can improve with experience, which JP already had. Will it? I don't know. But I'll take the unknown over a proven failure. I'll take the total package over a few select attributes."

"And I'll also explain why poise is important.
Calmness shows a QB's mind is handling all of the motion that's happening around him: 3 to 5 receivers running routes, five lineman and others protecting you, 11 defenders trying to get in your way with some trying to kill you. All in four seconds or so.
They say that for the good QBs, the game slows down for them. Their brains are wired so that the chaos on the field makes sense to them. They get it. They have the "it." The way that is manifested is how composed they are.
When a QB is panicky and jittery, that means his mind is struggling to keep up with the action. The body is at the mercy of the mind. Overwhelmingly, it's the mind that makes something out of nothing and determines the quality of what a QB does. And it's a failure of the mind that usually leads to negative plays. A million-dollar arm is nothing when attached a two-cent brain."


These two quotes by Philagape says it all. The one about poise is very insightfull.

[yordad]

I don't want consistency of JP. He's consistently inconsistent. I don't understand how he could have been. The whole team wasn't consistant. The coaches haven't been. The RBs. The WRs. The line. The GM. The defense. Or, even the special teams. And, neither was Trent.

Do you want to fire them all? Do you want to cut Moorman? We had a punter in preseason kick a few nice punts, should we bring him back?

The only thing consistant is........ THE TEAM has been inconsistant.

[Philagape]

I don't understand how he could have been. The whole team wasn't consistant. The coaches haven't been. The RBs. The WRs. The line. The GM. The defense. Or, even the special teams. And, neither was Trent.

Do you want to fire them all? Do you want to cut Moorman? We had a punter in preseason kick a few nice punts, should we bring him back?

The only thing consistant is........ THE TEAM has been inconsistant.

But we're talking about the QB. Your title said "JP Vs TE." I'm fine discussing other areas, what the alternatives are, and what other factors are involved, in other threads.

[yordad]

And if the players are fairly close, which I think your stats have pointed out, then you also look to the player with better upside. Even in football you have to look to the future.This makes sense sometimes. Like in a meaningless season, with no playoff implication.

But, the fact is, I strongly believe JP has more upside. He is more physically gifted. Actually, I think he is as gifted, with as much up side as any QB in the league. And, he wants to be the best.

And, for those that say "TE learns football faster." I think that is mostly wishful thinking. You people act like JP is dumb. Have you never heard him speak? Either way, he has been here a while, I think we have endured a large part of the learning curve. I think this tree is ready to bear fruits. Did you know avacado trees take 5 years (irrelevant fact for you)? Not to mention, their wonderlics were only a few points apart.

[Philagape]

Well, now that you mention the avacado trees, I change my mind.

[Mr. Pink]

This makes sense sometimes. Like in a meaningless season, with no playoff implication.

But, the fact is, I strongly believe JP has more upside. He is more physically gifted. Actually, I think he is as gifted, with as much up side as any QB in the league. And, he wants to be the best.

And, for those that say "TE learns football faster." I think that is mostly wishful thinking. You people act like JP is dumb. Have you never heard him speak? Either way, he has been here a while, I think we have endured a large part of the learning curve. I think this tree is ready to bear fruits. Did you know avacado trees take 5 years (irrelevant fact for you)? Not to mention, their wonderlics were only a few points apart.

Not to mention JP has no pocket awareness, poor mechanics which cause his passes to either sail or dive, doesn't protect the football well when it's in his hands, locks on one receiver most plays.

But those facts would hinder your argument, so they're excluded.

[yordad]

But we're talking about the QB. Your title said "JP Vs TE." I'm fine discussing other areas, what the alternatives are, and what other factors are involved, in other threads.How is that irrelevant? You can't arbitrarily make up rules to anothers thread to suit your own flawed argument.

But either way, I'll play along. I'm comparing two QBs. Two on the same team. For any resemblence of an accurate comparison you can only count this year. Same supporting cast, etc.

Both QBs have been inconsistant. In fact, TE has been more inconsistant. If you take out JPs 5 passes vs the Jest in the second meeting, JP's QB rating by games has ranged from 55.9 to 94.6. TE's has ranged from 42.8 to 111.4.

Who was more consistant with the '07 team?

[Philagape]

How is that irrelevant? You can't arbitrarily make up rules to anothers thread to suit your own flawed argument.

But either way, I'll play along. I'm comparing two QBs. Two on the same team. For any resemblence of an accurate comparison you can only count this year. Same supporting cast, etc.

Both QBs have been inconsistant. In fact, TE has been more inconsistant. If you take out JPs 5 passes vs the Jest in the second meeting, JP's QB rating by games has ranged from 55.9 to 94.6. TE's has ranged from 42.8 to 111.4.

Who was more consistant with the '07 team?

The season's over. It's about the future now, and I already explained why Trent has the upside. Inconsistency is normal for a rookie, but it's more disturbing in a veteran.

[yordad]

Not to mention JP has no pocket awareness, poor mechanics which cause his passes to either sail or dive, doesn't protect the football well when it's in his hands, locks on one receiver most plays.

But those facts would hinder your argument, so they're excluded.When, when you can give me statistcal evidence to back your claim rather then just your eye ball test, I will have no choice but to listen.

Did you know that when detectives are interviewing witnesses, they separate them? They do this because two objective witnesses can see the same thing, and report it two different ways. They don't want ones story of the events to influence the others.

Video and stats are as objective as you can be. Your stats are possible to find. You can find the number of time a particular receiver was targeted and compare it to the total number of passes. You may find other elite QBs target their #1 Wrs more then JP does. In fact, I know you will find that. And, have you seen our other receivers? Targeting Lee is a good thing if you ask me.

NTM, I think it is funny someone just said he had stats to show JP checked down more the TE. That is in complete contradiction to your claim.

And, if his passes are always sailing or diving, how do you explain his higher completeion %?

As soon as you show facts and not just opinions, I will include them.

Heck, I'm convinced it is more likely JP is gone, so I think it would be great if you could convince me it was for ther better.

[yordad]

Trent looks like he has it, JP after 4 years doesn't. Time to move on.

Maybe you can follow JP to his new team."It"? That is a worst argument then "poise". Maybe you could be more subjective?

I got one for you. "I like TEs hair more, so he should start."

[Mr. Pink]

All on has to do is watch the games to see JPs inability to secure the football.

Hitting the ref and fumbling. 4th and inches and fumbling. Throwing passes 10 feet over Josh Reed's head in Jacksonville and having a whole huge debate on if Josh Reed quit on the play on this very board.

But watching a player isn't the best way to formulate an opinion on him?

JP is a one trick pony, chuck the ball deep and hope Evans catches it. Hence the reason this was tried against Denver in week 1 where it was completely unnecessary to close out and win that game. With Trent in, we are in a better position to win that game on that very play, because we all sure as hell know that he would have never thrown that ball.

For a statistical comparison, Yardrat already provided one which is the reason moving forward to Edwards is the right choice right now. Less negative plays per dropback. Or did you just gloss over his posts too?

[yordad]

All the statistics in the world won't change the fact that my eye's saw one QB who was frantic and uncomfortable in the pocket and had a hard time executing a simple screen, where the other was willing to look down the pass rush attempting to make passes.

The funny part is if you ask every O-lineman who they would prefer as QB Trent would win hands down. When JP scored a TD he was looking around for players, when Trent scored a TD the whole o-line was bumping and patting him.

Rewatch the games. Different team with Trent on the field and I don't need stats to recognize that.Of cource not. Why would we look at stats when we have the good ol' eye ball test? Did you see the Giants game? Trent didn't all too "poised".

JP was looking for players to celebrate? Gez dude. He was voted team captain. Did you not see the Jests game? When he came off the bench everyone played harder.

You are completely reaching on this one. Of course, you could prove me wrong. You could show an article or two where the lineman are being interviewed. One where they are saying they prefere TE. In fact, I have heard a several players say they wanted JP, despite the fact it is a touchy subject.

[Yasgur's Farm]

yordad... This is why I gave up trying to be logical with these jabronies... They toss out everything that is tangible.

It's like saying that a 1st grader who says 2+2=5 is better than the 4th grader who answers the equation correctly... Because he's only a 1st grader (rookie)... He was only off by 1... He's almost as smart as the 4th grader... Therefore the 4th grader sux!!

Great logic huh?

[Philagape]

yordad... This is why I gave up trying to me logical with these jabronies... They toss out everything that is tangible.

It's like saying that a 1st grader who says 2+2=5 is better than the 4th grader who answers the equation correctly... Because he's only a 1st grader (rookie)... He was only off by 1... He's almost as smart as the 4th grader... Therefore the 4th grader sux!!

Great logic huh?

A fourth-grader stuck on 2+2 is a perfect analogy.

[Yasgur's Farm]

A 4th grader answering the equation correctly is a great analogy.

See what you did here... substituted "stuck on" for "answer correctly"?

It's impossible to have adult debates with those who insist on doing little tricks like that.

[djjimkelly]

JP wants out, so the point is moot, but i appreciate the effort you put into this post.


wouldnt u and i said this weeks ago i know JP is done another bone head move by the franchise.

hopefully he nets us a solid pick

[djjimkelly]

i also wrote a similar post but this is todays nfl.

new coach new GM means new qb.

oh wait looks like we getting a new GM again im sure it means new qb again. and new coach to follow soon enough

ill promise ill say i told you so when it happens

[Philagape]

A 4th grader answering the equation correctly is a great analogy.

See what you did here... substituted "stuck on" for "answer correctly"?

It's impossible to have adult debates with those who insist on doing little tricks like that.

I did that because a fourth-grader answering the question correctly is nothing to speak of. A kid at his level should be able to do more. And I expect more of a QB at JP's level when so much was invested in him.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Whatever level you wanna raise the analogy to is fine with me... It holds true at every level.

PS... I'm with you on Huckabee!
Choices are...
A Heathen
A Muslim
A Morman
A Baptist

[yordad]

And I'll also explain why poise is important.
Calmness shows a QB's mind is handling all of the motion that's happening around him: 3 to 5 receivers running routes, five lineman and others protecting you, 11 defenders trying to get in your way with some trying to kill you. All in four seconds or so.
They say that for the good QBs, the game slows down for them. Their brains are wired so that the chaos on the field makes sense to them. They get it. They have the "it." The way that is manifested is how composed they are.
When a QB is panicky and jittery, that means his mind is struggling to keep up with the action. The body is at the mercy of the mind. Overwhelmingly, it's the mind that makes something out of nothing and determines the quality of what a QB does. And it's a failure of the mind that usually leads to negative plays. A million-dollar arm is nothing when attached a two-cent brain.Fact is, I think poise is a strong asset. But, it isn't something that can be measured accurately by looking at someone. Completetions and yards are the byproduct of poise that can be measured. Points can be measured. Poise is a subjective observation.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Exactly yordad... the fruit of the intangible is the measure of the intangible.

[Philagape]

Tangibles partially depend on other factors. Completions and yards also depend on the receivers. Points depend on the offense as a whole. When evaluating a QB, you look at the QB.
Poise will result in better numbers when there are better circumstances. But lack of poise will hold a QB back no matter what. Poise is the starting point.

[chernobylwraiths]

The coaching of the Buffalo Bills these past two years has been more about having a QB to not lose games more than a guy who can make plays. With this being the case, Losman has made more plays to lose games than Edwards has. Losman is more of a big rewards, big losses kind of player, and at this stage of his career he has made far more losses than rewards. I don't like that philosophy, but that's what we have.

[yordad]

i also wrote a similar post but this is todays nfl.

new coach new GM means new qb.

oh wait looks like we getting a new GM again im sure it means new qb again. and new coach to follow soon enough

ill promise ill say i told you so when it happensIt is a never ending cycle. Let the JPing (verb) of TE commence.

[djjimkelly]

The coaching of the Buffalo Bills these past two years has been more about having a QB to not lose games more than a guy who can make plays. With this being the case, Losman has made more plays to lose games than Edwards has. Losman is more of a big rewards, big losses kind of player, and at this stage of his career he has made far more losses than rewards. I don't like that philosophy, but that's what we have.

maybe the fact we playing not to lose is our first issue. games this year made me want to nap. i want to win some excitment wouldnt be bad either

[yordad]

Tangibles partially depend on other factors. Completions and yards also depend on the receivers. Points depend on the offense as a whole. When evaluating a QB, you look at the QB.
Poise will result in better numbers when there are better circumstances. But lack of poise will hold a QB back no matter what. Poise is the starting point.Sure, but they were under basically the same circumstances.

TE had game plans called to his strengths. JP had game plans called to TE's strengths.

TE had the benifit of working with a more gelled line up.

Yet the fruit of poise is in JPs favor.

[YardRat]

So, if you take out Trent’s one good game

To be fair, take out JP's one good game against Cincinnati.


TE's numbers are entirely predicated on one good game vs. Miami, 1-15 Miami that nearly had the first every winless 16-game season.

JP had one good game against the Bengals 'defensive juggernaut'.


No offense, but the is the worst excuss for choosing a starter I have ever heard.

It was good enough for that dumb-ass Mularkey and the JPD. Karma's a *****.


You people act like JP is dumb. Have you never heard him speak?

He is dumb, from a football perspective. Put him behind center on gameday and he proves he's in need of remedial services. Actions speak louder than words, and his actions scream 'I can't read a defense! I'm afraid to throw the ball! I can't feel the pass rush!'


When, when you can give me statistcal evidence to back your claim rather then just your eye ball test, I will have no choice but to listen.

Ahem...Post #8...

TE - 10 games, 8 INT's, (.8 per game) - 4 fumbles, 0 lost, total = 8 and .8 per game. Sacks = 12, 1.2 per game. 269 attempts, 20 negative plays, 1 every 13.45 attempts.

JP - 8 games, 6 ints (.75 per game) - 5 fumbles, 2 lost, total = 8 and 1.0 per game. Sacks = 14, 1.2 per game. 175 attempts, 22 negative plays, 1 every 7.95 attempts.

JP career - 37 games, 29 INT's ( 1.3 per game) - 26 fumbles, 13 lost total = 1.1 per game. Sacks = 88, 2.4 per game. 837 attempts, 130 negative plays, 1 every 6.43 attempts.

[Philagape]

JP's play wasn't the fruit of poise, it was the fruit of pure athleticism (and more experience). That will only get you so far. Poise, plus experience and greater versatility, has higher upside.

[Philagape]

TE had game plans called to his strengths. JP had game plans called to TE's strengths.

TE has more strengths.


TE had the benifit of working with a more gelled line up.


So JP can play well only behind a gelled OL? Between injuries and year-to-year turnover, how often does a QB have that? That's pretty rare. A good QB needs to deal with that. A QB will face O-line changes a lot more than he'll face, say, severe winter weather.

[Yasgur's Farm]

TheAnswer told me that Trent's dick is bigger.

[Philagape]

TheAnswer told me that Trent's dick is bigger.

What was that you were saying about adult debates? :huh:

:jk:

[Yasgur's Farm]

Couldn't resist phil... All that talk about tangibles and all.
God bless all the pigmies in Africa.

[yordad]

Yardrat, I read your reply. I think it was the best counter reply in the thread. But, I am at work, and cannot look up as many things as I could from home. I was leaving it be, for now.

One thing I don't have to look up is... two wrongs do not make a right, and your Holcomb comparison is bad. Holcomb is more then 2 years older then JP, with no upside.

[yordad]

JP's play wasn't the fruit of poise, it was the fruit of pure athleticism (and more experience). That will only get you so far. Poise, plus experience and greater versatility, has higher upside.Isn't the fruit what matters? Who cares how you get it. Seriously.

Who do you want picking your fruit? A tall guy because he is taller, or a monkey? What matters is the amount of fruit produced.

[yordad]

TE has more strengths.



So JP can play well only behind a gelled OL? Between injuries and year-to-year turnover, how often does a QB have that? That's pretty rare. A good QB needs to deal with that. A QB will face O-line changes a lot more than he'll face, say, severe winter weather.Did you not see how TE "dealt" with it? Is it not clear JP "dealt" better?

Give me one single measureable physical strength TE has over JP. One single one. I would be willing to bet $$ JP could beat him in every single track and field event. Including discus, shot put, high jump and hurdles.

By physical strength, I don't mean "TE grows such a nice beard."

And, I bet JP could bust TEs arce in a fight too. Girly voice and all. :brush:

[justasportsfan]

Holcomb had poise. Why did we get rid of him in the first place?

Poise hasn't scored us points except for FG's. Flutie didn't have poise. So what? We went to the playoffs.

I like Trent. He has the same potentials JP had but different strengths. I just hope he doesn't end up being another Holcomb. He has the arm, it's just not proven.

[Philagape]

Did you not see how TE "dealt" with it? Is it not clear JP "dealt" better?

Give me one single measureable physical strength TE has over JP. One single one. I would be willing to bet $$ JP could beat him in every single track and field event. Including discus, shot put, high jump and hurdles.

By physical strength, I don't mean "TE grows such a nice beard."

And, I bet JP could bust TEs arce in a fight too. Girly voice and all. :brush:

OK, but we're talking about football. Mental strengths are more important. Versatility is more important.

And you're still talking in the past tense. The season is over. It's just as over as the last time I said it was over. Future fruit.

[YardRat]

Is it not clear JP "dealt" better?

No...It's an illusion. A bad magic trick, at that.

[Philagape]

Isn't the fruit what matters? Who cares how you get it. Seriously.

Who do you want picking your fruit? A tall guy because he is taller, or a monkey? What matters is the amount of fruit produced.

Are we still talking avacados? I can't handle these agricultural metaphors.

[yordad]

OK, but we're talking about football. Mental strengths are more important. Versatility is more important.

And you're still talking in the past tense. The season is over. It's just as over as the last time I said it was over. Future fruit.OK, so how do you plan to measure future fruit objectively. I didn't realize there was a stat that measures future success.

And, this is football, not chess. Football is a physical sport. This isn't poker.

Was Terry Bradshaw a brain surgeon? Was Dan Marino a rocket scientist? Is Farve a peace prize nominee? I'm thinking they had some physical attributes that were highly conducive to their success.

[YardRat]

Football smarts, yordad...There's a difference.

[Philagape]

OK, so how do you plan to measure future fruit objectively. I didn't realize there was a stat that measures future success.


You don't. You do what every scout and coach and anyone else with an opinion does. Draw upon observation and experience (for example, the very large trash heap of NFL busts who were physically gifted but not right in the head).

[justasportsfan]

You don't. You do what every scout and coach and anyone else with an opinion does. Draw upon observation and experience (for example, the very large trash heap of NFL busts who were physically gifted but not right in the head).
Some qb's were smart but didn't make it either. Van Pelt and Holcomb.

[Philagape]

Some qb's were smart but didn't make it either. Van Pelt and Holcomb.

So you gotta have both. Trent does.

[justasportsfan]

So you gotta have both. Trent does.

Potentially yes. Proven, not.

JP also has potential with a proven arm.

[yordad]

LOL, I love this debate guys. Good logic on both sides. Way better than some other boards I've been to.

But, I hope you guys don't judge me just because we disagree on one issue. Thought I'd throw that out there.

Besides, in all likely hood, the issue will be gone in the coming months. Even though I would like the debate to rage into training camp, with the new coordinator and GM all ears.

Time will tell who the better QB is. As of right now, in no way do I understand how most of you are so convinced TE will be the more successful of the two.

[Philagape]

Potentially yes. Proven, not.

JP also has potential with a proven arm.

And proven mental weakness

[Philagape]

LOL, I love this debate guys. Good logic on both sides. Way better than some other boards I've been to.

But, I hope you guys don't judge me just because we disagree on one issue. Thought I'd throw that out there.

Besides, in all likely hood, the issue will be gone in the coming months. Even though I would like the debate to rage into training camp, with the new coordinator and GM all ears.

Time will tell who the better QB is. As of right now, in no way do I understand how most of you are so convinced TE will be the more successful of the two.

It's refreshing to debate someone who uses actual substance and not silly smack games that twist him into a pretzel.

[justasportsfan]

And proven mental weakness
that can easily be blamed to the OC which applies to Trent as well. I don't have double standards. Trents mistakes as well as JP's can be traced back to Fairchild.

While Trent looked like a Young Holcomb, he has shown that he can't run a deep passing game . All he did was take a Martz system and change it into a bad version of a WCO which was still better than Fairchilds knowledge of Martz's system. His WCO style of playing hid Fairchilds stupidity.

JP's mistake was he was a good soldier and tried to run Fairchilds playbook . He should've pulled a Flutie and ran his own plays. Maybe he would've made Fairchild look good maybe not.

[justasportsfan]

It's refreshing to debate someone who uses actual substance and not silly smack games that twist him into a pretzel.
I agree.

[yordad]

that can easily be blamed to the OC which applies to Trent as well. I don't have double standards. Trents mistakes as well as JP's can be traced back to Fairchild.

While Trent looked like a Young Holcomb, he has shown that he can't run a deep passing game . All he did was take a Martz system and change it into a bad version of a WCO which was still better than Fairchilds knowledge of Martz's system. His WCO style of playing hid Fairchilds stupidity.

JP's mistake was he was a good soldier and tried to run Fairchilds playbook . He should've pulled a Flutie and ran his own plays. Maybe he would've made Fairchild look good maybe not.I think he may have been just a bout to do that. That may have been what got him benched. After all, it was right after he called out the play calling in the media. Sentiments Reed concurred with at seasons end.

[Philagape]

that can easily be blamed to the OC

which applies to Trent as well. I don't have double standards. Trents mistakes as well as JP's can be traced back to Fairchild.

While Trent looked like a Young Holcomb, he has shown that he can't run a deep passing game . All he did was take a Martz system and change it into a bad version of a WCO which was still better than Fairchilds knowledge of Martz's system. His WCO style of playing hid Fairchilds stupidity.

JP's mistake was he was a good soldier and tried to run Fairchilds playbook . He should've pulled a Flutie and ran his own plays. Maybe he would've made Fairchild look good maybe not.

You still don't know how to talk about a quarterback. Still.

[chernobylwraiths]

Did you not see how TE "dealt" with it? Is it not clear JP "dealt" better?

Give me one single measureable physical strength TE has over JP. One single one. I would be willing to bet $$ JP could beat him in every single track and field event. Including discus, shot put, high jump and hurdles.

By physical strength, I don't mean "TE grows such a nice beard."

And, I bet JP could bust TEs arce in a fight too. Girly voice and all. :brush:


Really? So because JP can bench press more and run faster that gives him more potential. Rob Johnson had all those gifts over Doug Flutie, who was the better QB. Peyton Manning isn't fast and doesn't look incredibly strong, what does that make him? Very poor comparison.

[justasportsfan]

You still don't know how to talk about a quarterback. Still.
:rofl:

And you do?

[yordad]

Really? So because JP can bench press more and run faster that gives him more potential. Rob Johnson had all those gifts over Doug Flutie, who was the better QB. Peyton Manning isn't fast and doesn't look incredibly strong, what does that make him? Very poor comparison.There you go with the "looks" argument. "Looks" mean zip. Manning looks like he has a weak arm, but is it? No. It is strong, so who cares what it looks like. Who has a poor comparison again?

My reply was in direct response to someone saying TE has more strengths then JP. I asked for one thing TE had over JP physically. So, you make an argument that JP looks stronger than Manning? And then tell me my comparison was poor? Pretty funny. And, way off.

While we're are at it, who looked more poised, Johnson or Flutie?

[chernobylwraiths]

There you go with the "looks" argument. "Looks" mean zip. Manning looks like he has a weak arm, but is it? No. It is strong, so who cares what it looks like. Who has a poor comparison again?

My reply was in direct response to someone saying TE has more strengths then JP. I asked for one thing TE had over JP physically. So, you make an argument that JP looks stronger than Manning? And then tell me my comparison was poor? Pretty funny. And, way off.

While we're are at it, who looked more poised, Johnson or Flutie?

When Manning came out, he was considered to have a weak arm. That is why many felt Ryan Leaf would be so much better. I think Manning might have added a little muscle in the last several years. Your argument was that JP had more physical strengths than Edwards and I say so what? As Phila has said, there is a lot more to QBing than physical ability, and most people are looking for someone that is smart. I don't think JP is that smart. Someone asked whether we had heard JP speak, and I ask that person if they have. JP at times sounds like a complete idiot. He has passion, but it doesn't seem he has much in the way of intelligence. I don't think he is an idiot, but he doesn't come across as very smart.

As for your last question, neither looked very poised, but Flutie was his style and Johnson was because he just had NO pocket awareness, NO intelligence, and couldn't stay healthy.

[yordad]

When Manning came out, he was considered to have a weak arm. That is why many felt Ryan Leaf would be so much better. I think Manning might have added a little muscle in the last several years. Your argument was that JP had more physical strengths than Edwards and I say so what? As Phila has said, there is a lot more to QBing than physical ability, and most people are looking for someone that is smart. I don't think JP is that smart. Someone asked whether we had heard JP speak, and I ask that person if they have. JP at times sounds like a complete idiot. He has passion, but it doesn't seem he has much in the way of intelligence. I don't think he is an idiot, but he doesn't come across as very smart.

As for your last question, neither looked very poised, but Flutie was his style and Johnson was because he just had NO pocket awareness, NO intelligence, and couldn't stay healthy.Leaf had a big arm. I don't think I heard Manning was weak, just that Leaf had a shotgun. Maybe your right, I don't know. But either way, none of it matters. As of now, Manning has all the tools to succeed. Would he be even better if he could run like JP? Yes, it definately wouldn't hurt.

I guess opinions of JPs speaking are very different. To me he sounds highly intelligent. I don't know how he sounds like a complete idiot to you, but hey, it is an opinion.

The bottom line to me is JP performed better in a system suited to his competitions strengths, not his. Better, not worst. Even if it was the same, one would think you start the captain, but it wasn't even the same. And, this is a system that is likely to change.

Now if you want to give JP's physical strenghts a 9 to TE's 7 (leaving off the word speculate, because it is measureable). And speculate that TE's intelligence is a 9 to JP's 7. And then speculate over what is more important, then go ahead.

I prefere to go with stats, and facts, not speculation.

[Philagape]

When deciding who the QB of the future is, there's nothing to do but speculate. Many NFL players don't tend to have the same stats from year to year. Especially rookies.

[yordad]

When deciding who the QB of the future is, there's nothing to do but speculate. Many NFL players don't tend to have the same stats from year to year. Especially rookies.Ok, when the future becomes present, and the decision needs to be made, you don't make the decision based on speculative future then. You make the decision based on measurable today.

What if they show up in camp, and JP completely outplays TE in a new system, with a new coordinator, GM, and upgraded talent? Do you then start TE with a speculative future in mind?

I do not think the Offensive problem was the QBs. Either QB. I think is was a lack of surrounding talent multiplied by very poor coaching. And in JPs case, that coaching was squared, not multiplied. But, he still performed better.

[Philagape]

I'm fine with competition in training camp.

[Mr. Pink]

LOL, I love this debate guys. Good logic on both sides. Way better than some other boards I've been to.

But, I hope you guys don't judge me just because we disagree on one issue. Thought I'd throw that out there.

Besides, in all likely hood, the issue will be gone in the coming months. Even though I would like the debate to rage into training camp, with the new coordinator and GM all ears.

Time will tell who the better QB is. As of right now, in no way do I understand how most of you are so convinced TE will be the more successful of the two.

No one is saying that Trent will DEFINITIVELY be better...what we are saying is that JP DEFINITIVELY won't be any better than what we've seen. The prospect of an unknown is greater than that of nothing.

How one can argue that JP will be better than what we've seen is absurd. He's had 4 years in the NFL...either playing or observing from the sidelines. What has he learned? Absolutely squat.

What do you get when you don't known squat at the NFL level? You get the trainwreck known as JP Losman's career. Which has derailed.

Time has shown that JP hasn't learned the mental aspects of the game and never will. JPs had the time, it's Trent's time now to find out if he can get it down.

[Philagape]

Another thing about the coaching-has-ruined-JP idea: A QB who can't play well in the pocket has no business being in the NFL, at least as a starter. That's a job requirement.

[YardRat]

The bottom line is statistics that are recorded in newspapers, web sites, record books, etc are fun to debate and compare for fans but eventually mean very little in determining what players the coaches put on the field in order to give the team the best chance for success.

Ultimately, especially with the QB position, it's the statistics that the coaching staff, front office, and players have access to and fans have no clue about that mean the most. That's why the coaches break down game film every week and grade the players based on their overall performance, not their stat line.

To the average fan QB rating, completion percentage, etc are big indicators of success, largely in part because that's the only information available to us. In the coaches offices, in the film rooms, the number of correct calls at the line or the number of correct reads related to coverages or schemes is a far better indicator of how successful a player could be if everything works and the play is successful.

The fan sees the QB drop back, throw the ball over the receivers head for an incompletion, and we give him an 'F' for a bad throw. For the same exact play the coaches see the QB check out of a run into a pass based on the defensive alignment (such as a stacked box), look off the primary receiver (who's doubled), throw to the secondary receiver (who's singled, but cut his route a few yards short and wasn't in the spot the QB expected him to be) and the QB ultimately gets a grade of 'A+' for making all the right calls, reads, and the proper throw to the proper spot.

Same play, same result, different perspective on whether or not any success was gained.

Even though the commonly reported statistics for JP and Trent can be compiled and compared to show how similar they are, or if indeed one is 'better' than the other, we really have no basis for comparing them relative to the same information that the coaching staff is using. For all we know, based on review of game films, TE may be grading out to an 'A' every week and JP maybe a 'D' or an 'F'.

If that's the case, it's a big difference and the disparity would be obvious to everybody. Unless one of us actually gains access to the film room, though, we will really never know.

[Yasgur's Farm]

We as fans see the same film as the coaches... Some of us are able to break it down... Some of us think we are able to break it down.

Reallity... Many of us are fooled year to year.

[YardRat]

We as fans see the same film as the coaches... Some of us are able to break it down... Some of us think we are able to break it down.

Reallity... Many of us are fooled year to year.

None of us are on the sideline or in the booth, or really have much of a clue as to the actual plays that make up the gameplan, so I will disagree.

We see the tip of the iceberg and make our conclusions based on that alone...

[Yasgur's Farm]

So who's more foolish... lickers or Trenchers?

[YardRat]

So who's more foolish... lickers or Trenchers?

Is this a trick question?

[yordad]

The bottom line is statistics that are recorded in newspapers, web sites, record books, etc are fun to debate and compare for fans but eventually mean very little in determining what players the coaches put on the field in order to give the team the best chance for success.

Ultimately, especially with the QB position, it's the statistics that the coaching staff, front office, and players have access to and fans have no clue about that mean the most. That's why the coaches break down game film every week and grade the players based on their overall performance, not their stat line.

To the average fan QB rating, completion percentage, etc are big indicators of success, largely in part because that's the only information available to us. In the coaches offices, in the film rooms, the number of correct calls at the line or the number of correct reads related to coverages or schemes is a far better indicator of how successful a player could be if everything works and the play is successful.

The fan sees the QB drop back, throw the ball over the receivers head for an incompletion, and we give him an 'F' for a bad throw. For the same exact play the coaches see the QB check out of a run into a pass based on the defensive alignment (such as a stacked box), look off the primary receiver (who's doubled), throw to the secondary receiver (who's singled, but cut his route a few yards short and wasn't in the spot the QB expected him to be) and the QB ultimately gets a grade of 'A+' for making all the right calls, reads, and the proper throw to the proper spot.

Same play, same result, different perspective on whether or not any success was gained.

Even though the commonly reported statistics for JP and Trent can be compiled and compared to show how similar they are, or if indeed one is 'better' than the other, we really have no basis for comparing them relative to the same information that the coaching staff is using. For all we know, based on review of game films, TE may be grading out to an 'A' every week and JP maybe a 'D' or an 'F'.

If that's the case, it's a big difference and the disparity would be obvious to everybody. Unless one of us actually gains access to the film room, though, we will really never know.I have that game film. I am a team consultant...... yeah, just kidding. Great points. I would love to have that film, but I would only waste my time watching and analysising it if my opinion actually mattered.

Fact is though, I have heard this argument before, and it is a good one. A very good one. But, I have little faith in our coaching staffs ability to evaluate talent.

Look at Greer. I was saying he should get starting reps since the middle of the second preseason game. Was I saying he should be a stud? No. I was saying he out performed the players he was playing against, and should be promoted just to see how far he could be promoted and still out perform fellow players. But it took several injuries before he got on the field. I still think he should have been the opening day starter with this roster.

Same as Fred Jackson. He outperformed everyone on the field when he was out there. He should have gotten earlier touches in those preseason games. I mean, you run A-train vs the seconds, and he is the worst player out there. Then you run Jackson vs the thirds and he is the best player. Wouldn't it be logical to switch them and see what you got? But, it took two injuries until Jackson got a look. He performed awesome when given the chance. Then Jauron was asked in a interview if he felt he should have made Jackson #2 earlier, but didn't because he was attached to A-train. He got defensive and acted like A-train would still get those carries if healthy. I don't believe him.

Look at McCargo. I think it is obvious he makes more plays in less playing time. Don't you? Why does he not start? I don't get it.

Point is, maybe your right. Maybe they see something I, and others, cannot. But, I don't believe them. I would see these other things too if I thought it would save my job. When you hear "experts" talk about the bills struggling they alway mention the QB carousel being the major contributing factor. BS.

[yordad]

I will add, I believe you only get one additional camera for that game film you speak of. I'm not sure how much more telling it would be. Unless, maybe they get every angle from the TV broadcast for the duration of the game.

Wouldn't that be cool if we had a interactive game day? One where you click a botton on your remote and you get a different angle.

I personally like the overhead cam.

And, just before they snap the ball, many times the give a wider view, then zoom in. Stop zooming in. I like the wide view. Then again, I have a pretty big TV.

[yordad]

I have a example for you guys that I doubt many of you noticed. It was against the Jets. You can go to NFL.com and watch the replay of the Int, but not the drop I'm about to speak of.

The Jets sporadically employed a pretty unique defense. They had 7 lineman, LBs, and maybe a saftey all in the box, but none were in a three or four point stance. In fact, none were really even on the line. They were basically wondering around mingling. When the ball was snapped they basically all rushed from all crazy angles.

They did this on Trent, got pressure and he threw an int. early in the game. Later in the game, they did the same exact thing to JP when the Bills had a similar play called. They got pressure, hit him as he threw, and he launched a bomb that hit Rosco near the endzone. Rosco dropped it, but it hit him in the chest. Same D called, similar O called, very different throws made, under similar pressure.

I will actually give you a link. Again, it only shows the TE int, because it was a noteworthy play. Rosco's drop wasn't as noteworthy and didn't make the highlight, but at least you can see the defense I am speaking of.

It is the first play
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_id=29305&displayPage=tab_gamecenter&season=2007&week=REG8

[hydro]

We as fans see the same film as the coaches... Some of us are able to break it down... Some of us think we are able to break it down.

Reallity... Many of us are fooled year to year.

Since when do we have the same film as coaches? I have never seen a full field camera view of the whole game be available to the public and thats what they study from.

[Philagape]

Roscoe had to adjust to that pass so much that he fell down. It would have taken extraordinary balance and concentration to catch it.

And the thing about the Jets game is, obviously JP played aggresssively because he was pumped about getting back in and had a chip on his shoulder I'm sure. He was very lucky the bomb to Evans wasn't picked.

[RedEyE]

I say hold JP to his final season... See what happens during training camp... See if he's needed to fill in... See what his trade value is at the deadline in '08. See If, by some miracle, he gets another chance to shine (with a competent OC), his value might even increase to a tag... or tag and trade.

I completely agree. I also think they need to bring in another decent veteran FA that will highten the level of competition and perhaps bring out something in either one of these guys.

[chernobylwraiths]

We as fans see the same film as the coaches... Some of us are able to break it down... Some of us think we are able to break it down.

Reallity... Many of us are fooled year to year.

Since when do fans get the same film? What is needed is a full field view (which we don't get but they do). On that film, you will be able to see when the receivers are open, if they ran the right route, etc. That is something that no fan will ever have access to.

[chernobylwraiths]

I have that game film. I am a team consultant...... yeah, just kidding. Great points. I would love to have that film, but I would only waste my time watching and analysising it if my opinion actually mattered.

Fact is though, I have heard this argument before, and it is a good one. A very good one. But, I have little faith in our coaching staffs ability to evaluate talent.

Look at Greer. I was saying he should get starting reps since the middle of the second preseason game. Was I saying he should be a stud? No. I was saying he out performed the players he was playing against, and should be promoted just to see how far he could be promoted and still out perform fellow players. But it took several injuries before he got on the field. I still think he should have been the opening day starter with this roster.

Same as Fred Jackson. He outperformed everyone on the field when he was out there. He should have gotten earlier touches in those preseason games. I mean, you run A-train vs the seconds, and he is the worst player out there. Then you run Jackson vs the thirds and he is the best player. Wouldn't it be logical to switch them and see what you got? But, it took two injuries until Jackson got a look. He performed awesome when given the chance. Then Jauron was asked in a interview if he felt he should have made Jackson #2 earlier, but didn't because he was attached to A-train. He got defensive and acted like A-train would still get those carries if healthy. I don't believe him.

Look at McCargo. I think it is obvious he makes more plays in less playing time. Don't you? Why does he not start? I don't get it.

Point is, maybe your right. Maybe they see something I, and others, cannot. But, I don't believe them. I would see these other things too if I thought it would save my job. When you hear "experts" talk about the bills struggling they alway mention the QB carousel being the major contributing factor. BS.


I can't argue at all with any of these points and agree with them all. The one thing I would say though is that A-train, while not close to the level of RB of Lynch or even Fred Jackson, is a very good blocker. Lynch and Jackson almost got our QBs killed at times in blitz pickups.

[YardRat]

It isn't as much as the film itself as it is what the coaches are looking for and what they are grading the players on.

As far as the capability of the coaching staff to evaluate properly, I can't argue with the examples given (Greer, McGargo, and Jackson) especially considering I think most average fans were impressed with at least two of three during preseason play. The only alternative solution I can give is that those players don't grade out well during practice. Not saying that's the case, just a possibility.

A specific example that always comes to my mind when a subject like this comes up is Frank Reich. For the longest time I never understood why Reich continually made the roster. He never really played well in preseason, and was largely untested during the year. Yet he maintained the back-up role for Kelly every year.

Why? Because he graded out well in practice, and even though he never lit up the stat sheet and performed even poorly at times, he graded out well from the game films by making the right calls, the right reads, and putting the ball in the proper place at the proper time consistently.

If it were up to me, evaluating on the info I had only, he would have been cut. Fortunate for the team and it's fans at the time that he wasn't.

[chernobylwraiths]

Since when do we have the same film as coaches? I have never seen a full field camera view of the whole game be available to the public and thats what they study from.

I should have read further.

[Philagape]

I think the coaches have a strong loyalty to incumbents. The glaring exception, of course, is JP, and that may be explained by him being a product of the previous administration.

[justasportsfan]

Roscoe had to adjust to that pass so much that he fell down. It would have taken extraordinary balance and concentration to catch it.

.
:rofl:

[sdbillsfan2]

I'm not taking sides either way,but why not have the same open competition for the job as jp had to go through last year. I can see why Jp would be pissed off. I honestly think he'll do better elsewhere ,and TE hasn't proven to me that he'll be any better. I don't think the California kids are a good fit for Western New York winters!

[yordad]

I'm not taking sides either way,but why not have the same open competition for the job as jp had to go through last year. I can see why Jp would be pissed off. I honestly think he'll do better elsewhere ,and TE hasn't proven to me that he'll be any better. I don't think the California kids are a good fit for Western New York winters!Excellent question. JP had to go through earning the job every training camp. WHY wouldn't TE have to do the same?

For some reason I am convinced he wouldn't have to.

[TacklingDummy]

Excellent question. JP had to go through earning the job every training camp. WHY wouldn't TE have to do the same?



No he didn't. It was given to him 3 years in a row.

JP has no one to blame but himself.

[UltimateBillsFan]

TE's numbers are entirely predicated on one good game vs. Miami, 1-15 Miami that nearly had the first every winless 16-game season.

After that, Edwards numbers are right down there with a whole bunch of QBs that were highly touted and then left this league with footprints all over their booties. He was absolutely abysmal outside of that single game, at home.

That's a fact.

*Clapping* I couldn't agree more and I have said that all along. For most of the season I was a huge JP supporter but towards the end I have started to support both guys less and less. I think that maybe if Edwards matures over the offseason he might be able to shock the league next year. If Edwards continues his dismal play next year, that's when I think we should give up on him and face that he isn't going to be our franchise quarterback. As for JP, I wouldn't be suprised if he ends up in Miami or Atlanta next year.

[chernobylwraiths]

*Clapping* I couldn't agree more and I have said that all along. For most of the season I was a huge JP supporter but towards the end I have started to support both guys less and less. I think that maybe if Edwards matures over the offseason he might be able to shock the league next year. If Edwards continues his dismal play next year, that's when I think we should give up on him and face that he isn't going to be our franchise quarterback. As for JP, I wouldn't be suprised if he ends up in Miami or Atlanta next year.


:rofl: Take away two of Edwards bad games instead and his numbers are much better than JPs. It's just dumb.

[colin]

uhg.

jp has had every single chance to succeed as much as he can on a platter. he was made the starter over drew, and drew was pushed out of town.

he looked worse than holcomb and still got the start.

he has had 4 training camps, with 3 of them being the guy. he has taken the starter snaps in practice for about 35 or 40 total games.

he had a special coach come in to train him (wyche).

he failed. he failed as a first year starter, he failed in his second year as a starter, and he failed horribly this year.

he's not good. lets give trent an offseason to work on his game and to be out of his rookie season.

we'll get a better idea of what he can do.

[justasportsfan]

uhg.

jp has had every single chance to succeed as much as he can on a platter. he was made the starter over drew, and drew was pushed out of town.

he looked worse than holcomb and still got the start.

he has had 4 training camps, with 3 of them being the guy. he has taken the starter snaps in practice for about 35 or 40 total games.

he had a special coach come in to train him (wyche).

he failed. he failed as a first year starter, he failed in his second year as a starter, and he failed horribly this year.

he's not good. lets give trent an offseason to work on his game and to be out of his rookie season.

we'll get a better idea of what he can do.

Trent has a special coach named Shonert. Every qb has one. They are called qb coaches.

As for the rest, like I said, Trent woukld've failed miserably as well. He probably would've been on IR at somepoint. He already looked like a bust his last 3 games.

[colin]

Trent has a special coach named Shonert. Every qb has one. They are called qb coaches.

As for the rest, like I said, Trent woukld've failed miserably as well. He probably would've been on IR at somepoint. He already looked like a bust his last 3 games.

no no, wyche was brought in just to help JP over the offseason. he was a special helper. remember how bad jp was to start? remember his multiple sub 80 yard games? remember how bad he sucked?

and before you get all huffy about trent's last 3 games, did you read the article about how eli manning and derek anderson had worse numbers accross those games than jp did?

maybe the weather disrupted the entire passing game?

HINT: IT DID!

[chernobylwraiths]

no no, wyche was brought in just to help JP over the offseason. he was a special helper. remember how bad jp was to start? remember his multiple sub 80 yard games? remember how bad he sucked?

and before you get all huffy about trent's last 3 games, did you read the article about how eli manning and derek anderson had worse numbers accross those games than jp did?

maybe the weather disrupted the entire passing game?

HINT: IT DID!

Come on. A little snow in one game and a slight breeze in the other? Even Chad Pennington could have thrown bombs in that one.

:;

[Gimpygirl]

Terrific post and yes, I agree with you. In regards to all of the talk around JP's regression - the coaching staff NEVER coached to his strengths and certainly did not help his confidence level with all of the QB controversy this season. The reality is that JP, in the right place with the right support will be a Hall of Fame QB reminiscent of Jim Kelly - he has the same kind of physicality. Once again our team's management has screwed up but what is new? I remember wishing we had kept Flutie for another season or two so we could have a winning season or two but management was hell bent on rebuilding - wasn't that when it started? Enough is enough now!
As for JP - not only can he be and probably will be a great QB - he is an extremely good human being! He came to Buffalo, commited to the team and the city, bought a home, participated in city clean-ups and started a charity! We are losing a lot but again what's new? I hope the best for JP and that he lands with a team that will appreciate him, build on his strengths and give him the career he deserves - I just pray Ralph is around long enough to eat sour grapes on this one!

[justasportsfan]

no no, wyche was brought in just to help JP over the offseason. he was a special helper. remember how bad jp was to start? remember his multiple sub 80 yard games? remember how bad he sucked?

and before you get all huffy about trent's last 3 games, did you read the article about how eli manning and derek anderson had worse numbers accross those games than jp did?

maybe the weather disrupted the entire passing game?

HINT: IT DID!


Puhlease. Sam Wysche was a qb coach. JP hung out in the offseason on his own accord. Your info is all screwed up. JP stayed in the facilities to practice.He's known to be a hard worker. Not because they made him go to learn from Wyche.

Yeah I read that article. Looks like it was written by a Trent fan making excuses. IMO JP could've done better in bad weather. He's shown he can.

[YardRat]

The reality is that JP, in the right place with the right support will be a Hall of Fame QB reminiscent of Jim Kelly

:rofl:

Oh. I'm sorry, you were being serious, weren't you?

[Gimpygirl]

Yardrat ,maybe Ralph can invite you to his box and the two of you can eat together

[Philagape]

If all the defensive players stopped and walked off the field before the play, I'd be a Hall of Fame QB too. Me and JP in the "Please Help Me Play Well" wing.

[justasportsfan]

If all the defensive players stopped and walked off the field before the play, I'd be a Hall of Fame QB too.
I doubt you'd even make any team in the first place.

[Oaf]

Yordad,
I really like the points you've made. The only thing that has held back JP from being the clear cut better option is not the win/losses, passer ratings, or completion %'s.

It's the comparison of negative plays per dropback of JP to Trent. And with Fairchild and DJ's "play to not lose" philosophy, JP doesn't click.

It's also worth mentioning that JP clearly has more positive gamechanging plays per dropback than Trent, but that's apparently irrelevant as well.

[yordad]

Yordad,
I really like the points you've made. The only thing that has held back JP from being the clear cut better option is not the win/losses, passer ratings, or completion %'s.

It's the comparison of negative plays per dropback of JP to Trent. And with Fairchild and DJ's "play to not lose" philosophy, JP doesn't click.

It's also worth mentioning that JP clearly has more positive gamechanging plays per dropback than Trent, but that's apparently irrelevant as well.I think you are dead on right here.

[BillsFever21]

Nobody expected Edwards to be even as good as he played, let alone be as good as Marino or Rothlisberger in their rookie seasons.



This is the most absurd and ridiculous comments on this subject I have EVER seen. Do you really believe this or just slow? Trent Edwards was as good as Marino and Big Ben in their rookie seasons?

Dan Marino - 1983

TD - 20 passing, 2 rushing, 22 total
INT - 6
Y/A - 7.47
Completion % - 58.4
QB Rating - 96

Team went to the SB and lost in his rookie season

Ben Roethlisberger

TD - 17 TD passes, 1 rushing, 18 total
INT - 11
Y/A - 8.9
Completion % - 66.4
QB Rating - 98.1

Team won the SB in his rookie season

Trent Edwards

TD - 7
INT - 8
Y/A - 6.1
Completion % - 56.1
QB Rating - 70.4

Team lost their last 3 games when the playoffs were on the line and in very ugly fashion. They also failed to score a TD in 3 of the last 5 games.

Trent Edwards was as good as Marino and Roethlisberger in their rookie seasons? Yes. I can see the comparisons.

If you love Trent as a player then speak your mind about him but do not make asinine statements like this and think the thousands of people on this board are too ******ed to pick up on it. Or maybe you really did believe the comment...

[YardRat]

Yardrat ,maybe Ralph can invite you to his box and the two of you can eat together

I wouldn't have to spoon feed him, would I? If so, no deal.

[BillsFever21]

Trent Edwards is so smart and has so much poise he was able to give away the play they were running about 5 times in 30 minutes worth of football.

So many times that the Eagles and even Rich Gannon were able to pick up on it. Everyone picked up on it except for Trent Edwards until after halftime when the coaches must have finally told him.

This is a very smart player. Everyone at the stadium and at home picked up on this but our starting QB didn't. Don't use the rookie excuse. All of us sitting at home who never played football even picked up on it. Trent has been playing football since since he was a little kid. Even a little kid would know better.

[Romes]

Trent Edwards is so smart and has so much poise he was able to give away the play they were running about 5 times in 30 minutes worth of football.

So many times that the Eagles and even Rich Gannon were able to pick up on it. Everyone picked up on it except for Trent Edwards until after halftime when the coaches must have finally told him.

This is a very smart player. Everyone at the stadium and at home picked up on this but our starting QB didn't. Don't use the rookie excuse. All of us sitting at home who never played football even picked up on it. Trent has been playing football since since he was a little kid. Even a little kid would know better.

Trent did not pick the plays or the formation. The OC did.

[BillsFever21]

Trent did not pick the plays or the formation. The OC did.

You must have been one of the people not able to pick up on it. It had nothing to do with the formation or play being called.

Every single time he turned to his side and lowered his arms towards the ground it was a run play. Every single time the Eagles would audible and they all went running to where the play was going.

After halftime they must've finally noticed it and they did it again but only to trick Philly. They did a screen play that gained 23 yards. That had nothing to do with the formation. That was Trent giving the play away at the LOS.

[YardRat]

You must have been one of the people not able to pick up on it. It had nothing to do with the formation or play being called.

Every single time he turned to his side and lowered his arms towards the ground it was a run play. Every single time the Eagles would audible and they all went running to where the play was going.

After halftime they must've finally noticed it and they did it again but only to trick Philly. They did a screen play that gained 23 yards. That had nothing to do with the formation. That was Trent giving the play away at the LOS.

Sooo.........

What exactly do you think Trent was doing when he made that motion, why was he doing it, and do you think he came up with it on his own?

[Romes]

You must have been one of the people not able to pick up on it. It had nothing to do with the formation or play being called.

Every single time he turned to his side and lowered his arms towards the ground it was a run play. Every single time the Eagles would audible and they all went running to where the play was going.

After halftime they must've finally noticed it and they did it again but only to trick Philly. They did a screen play that gained 23 yards. That had nothing to do with the formation. That was Trent giving the play away at the LOS.

actually, i did not watch that game. so no i did not pick up on it.

what i do know is that players (namely, josh reed) complained about the play calling being to obvious and easy to defend. My comment was based off of that.

but anyway, a signal at the line cannot be changed mid play, even if the defense is on to it.

[yordad]

If we get a cooridinator who likes to play to win, and not just try and not lose, TE's "strenghts" will likely turn into glaring weaknesses.

Again, I hope you people are right on your "upside" argument. Even though as of right now, I think it is just wishful thinking.

[Spiderweb]

Yes he wants out. But I think the point is... The way this situation has been handled has actually devalued the Bills talent assets... Devalued JP's worth... Both on the roster AND in a trade scenario.

Nice job yordad. Of course you've been around long enough to know that "stats don't mean jack" when it comes to an opposing opinion.

I say hold JP to his final season... See what happens during training camp... See if he's needed to fill in... See what his trade value is at the deadline in '08. See If, by some miracle, he gets another chance to shine (with a competent OC), his value might even increase to a tag... or tag and trade.
:bullseye:
Here comes the neggy brigade. :fishy:


Unless the Bills can somehow get a decent player or draft choice (3rd minimum), I'd say keep him for next year as well.

[acehole]

I am not impressed with TE as everybody knows.
JP last year started to show signs of being a leader
and taking over games. I wanted to see some of that at
the JAx game and it wasnt there. Jax turned out to be a good
team yes but he needed to have a turn the corner game there
and it did not materialize. The Bills simply dont put enough talent
around the QB.....with a quality game plan. They dont have enough talent
on defense and over all. Pretty much what I have said all year. This debate is a red herring....like rearanging the chairs on the titanic. Doesnt anyone se a patern here? RW does not put a quality product on the field period. Trent was exposed as I said he would be..JP has the edge with physical tools and slight experience factor(IMHO) but so what? We dont have the ponies to take us the whole way anyway...so who cares.Some hope next year with a good draft and hopfully some first quality FA's....but dont hold your breath.
Sorry if I am cynical but it is the same BS with this team.




FIRST: I want to make it clear I like TE. I think he can be good. My point is, JP is currently better and TE has done nothing to take his job.

I like to incorporate playing time into some statistical comparisons. For example, you can’t really compare season passing yards for a guy that played one game to a guy that played 16. All you can really do is take the average of the guy with 16 games.

For this reason I will be using the fact JP played approximately 25.58 quarter and TE played approximately 38.42 quarters in many of the stats that follow. It give a more accurate per-game comparison because they split some games.

Many of these aren’t points, just counter points. What I mean is, in some cases the statistical difference isn’t very large. And, probably isn’t worth mentioning. The reason they are mentioned, is because I have heard JP haters use similar concocted “material” against him.

If you want clarification on how something was calculated just ask.

JP didn’t have a good year, but he was clearly the better QB.

JP’s passer rating on year = 76.9
Trent’s passer rating on the year = 70.4

And, I think the two biggest stats are yards per attempt, and competition %. I feel this way, because this is what helps you move the chains.
JP’s = 63.4% , and 6.9 yards per attempt.
TE’ = 56.1%, and 6.1 yards per attempt.
SO much for the “TE is more accurate argument”.

I’ll add another significant stat that keeps D’s honest and moves the chains….
JP rushing yards per game (110 total) = 17.2, and 5.5 per attempt.
TE Rushing yards per game (49 total) = 5.1, and 3.5 per attempt.

JP played better teams

Broken down into quarters, TE’s average opponent had 8.06 wins on the year. JP’s opponents had 8.53 wins on the year. So don’t try this one.

The Bills offense scores more with JP.

Trent (125 pts)= 3.25 per quarter, or 13.0 per game
JP (90 pts) = 3.52 per quarter, or 14.1

Before you say, “what is one point”, I’ll give my answer. Answer: the margin of victory for the Cowboys on Monday night. Besides, I’m not really trying to make a point here. Really just a counter point on the things I have heard.

Lynch’s rushing production with both Qbs:

With JP at QB Lynch’s YPC = 4.3
With TE at QB Lynch’s YPC = 3.8

That is .5 yards. In a game of inches, that in 18 inches for every carry. I speculate that JP’s arm strength and his down field passing threat has a lot to do with this.

JP Played himself out of a job vs. Jacksonville?

JP’s passer rating on year = 76.9
JP’s passer rating in Jags game that got him benched = 67.81
Trent’s passer rating on the year = 70.4
Trent’s passer rating on the year minus his best game = 64.83

So, if you take out Trent’s one good game verse the worst team in the league, his passer rating in 2.98 points lower then the game that got JP benched. And, if you count it, his passer rating is only 2.59 points higher then the game that got JP benched but still 6.5 points lower then JP’s on the year not taking out any bad games. Complicated?

I‘ll say it another way. Trent’s combined 34.42 quarters (his year minus the one game) QB rating is worst then the 4 quarters that got JP benched. Plus I will add that A-train got the start in Jacksonville. I think that is worth three points right there.

Win and Losses are all that matters.

Before you say “wins and losses mean everything“, all I can say is let me know when Trent starts returning punts. Or starts on defense. Wins is a team stat. Not a QB stat.

But, while we are on the subject, be objective. Trent played the first game against the Pats. And JP won the game against the Jets. You can’t use the argument “JP got the reps all week for the Pats”, then turn around and say “the Jets game planned for TE all week”. Because the opposite could be said in both cases.

That puts JP at 3-4, and TE at 4-5. What do you think JP’s record projects out to if he were to have started two more games? The same as TE. Again, not that it matters because I don’t think QB was the main problem.

So, how about money time?

Trent 4th quarter QB rating = 34.2
JP 4th quarter QB rating = 86.1

Shocking?

Arm Strength?

Isn’t this a significant trait to have for quarter backing in Buffalo at the Ralph? With the winds? JP’s football fast ball was clocked higher than TE's at the combine, but did you really need to know that? I think it is obvious JP has more zip.

TE completed a long ball to Lee against the Ravens. The ball started at the Buffalo 29 yard line. It hit Lee at the 34. The ball flew 37 yards in the air from the line of scrimmage. That was his second longest completed throw, and it was a little wobbly and short. His longest was against the ‘Fins. It flew 42 yards from the line of scrimmage. JP has accomplished greater feats several times. Most notably his 45 yards from the line of scrimmage against the Texans in ’06, while being hit by three Texans as he threw. Or the 42 yards from the LOS to Lee against the Jets this year, into 28 MPH winds. These are off the top of my head.

TE is better at moving the chains?

How is that even possible? JP completes a higher % of passes, and he gets more yards per attempt. Also Lynch runs for more yards per carry when JP hands him the ball.

JP’s third down QB rating = 71.8
TE’s third down QB rating = 56.1

And, we all know who is more likely to run for a first down. JP.

Game Plans and coaching favored TE, but now we are getting a new OC.

The game plans were called to Trent’s strengths when he was starting. And, the game plans were called to Trent’s strengths when JP was starting.

We hired Mike Martz’s assistant. We had speed at wide out. We drafted a receiving RB. We got rid of the smash mouth FB. We added an H-back, which is basically a FB that never carries the ball. We had a strong armed mobile QB.

Then we decided to dink and dunk with the rookie QB? It makes zero sense.

Trent is younger, so he should start?

Why? He is only two years younger. What ever happened to experience being a good thing?

Wouldn’t the argument that TE is younger be in favor of JP? We have had him for a while. We have endured learning curve. And, when he is about to start fulfilling potential you want to get rid of him? Or start him on a BS game by game basis? I’m not saying TE has reached his potential, that would be dumb. But with a QB with as much drive, grit, integrity, desire, fire, passion, respect, work ethic, determination, confidence, and physical tools as Losman has, you can’t dump him now for a complete unproven.

If you think Trent will be better some day, fine. Just wait until he is before you start him. Especially while we are trying to make a playoff run.

But TE is Poised

Poise? That’s your argument? “He looks poised”? Who cares how he looks? Looking poised = nothing.

Closing argument

TE's numbers aren't bad for a young rookie. But, he didn't come close to lighten things up. He didn't do anything to take the job from the team captain we have been putting though countless hardships, twisted a tweaked since he was drafted. Especially not when JP's body of work has consistently improved since breaking his leg as a rookie.

He has had less then two years worth of playing time (under 128 quarters played). Why would any bills fan want to toss him right when we are about to see the fruits of our labor? All that money you spent on tickets? Gone. It is the most important positions of the team. Why would you want to start over. We've been rebuilding for a decade, I thought we were building now.

JP has continuously said, "We can win with the guys we have here right now". Continuity breeds consistency. The only thing consistent about JP’s career so far is there has been no continuity.

I’d like to add that although all these stats are in JP’s favor, Trent has had the privilege/benefit of working with a more gelled line, and players more familiar with what is going on this year. 8.33 quarters for JP followed by 18.42 quarters TE. Then 17.25 quarters JP, followed by 20 quarters TE.

Bottomline: The offense produced no better with TE. I think JP was benched so Fairchild and Co. could have a scapegoat. At the time, it looked like the Bills where in no way a playoff team. So maybe JP's contract escalators played in also.

I had in mind to put up more stats. After all, the off season isn't going away any time soon. It is getting late, but I could have taken months to do this.

Basically I can put up a gazillion stats/number and have put up many. Your a Bills fan (well except for one closet Bills fan who thinks he likes the Dolphins, LOL), I'm a Bills fan. I don’t think I changed anyone’s mind, but I feel better. If you got this far, thanks for listening.



Feel free to respond. I’m not advocating you criticize, but if you do so adult like, I can take it. If you agree, all the better.

[YardRat]

If we get a cooridinator who likes to play to win, and not just try and not lose, TE's "strenghts" will likely turn into glaring weaknesses.

Again, I hope you people are right on your "upside" argument. Even though as of right now, I think it is just wishful thinking.

I don't understand your logic...Could you expand on the first sentence a little bit please?

[yordad]

I don't understand your logic...Could you expand on the first sentence a little bit please?What if we need to outscore a team? Can we win in a shootout with TE? What if we need that big play? What if we need several big plays? TE fits this scheme. Problem is, this scheme sucks. Playing scared. Run, Run, pass. Dink, and dunk. It is the problem.

Maybe we need that big play. Maybe we get a coordinator who likes the long ball. Maybe we get a coordinator who doesn't like to play it safe then try squeak one out. Maybe we get a guy that goes for the jugular early and often.

Maybe we get one that realizes the consistant threat of a downfield passing game will open up holes for the running game. And if we don't, after film has been accumulated on TE, eight men in the box will be the norm (ok, it already is). Then what? Will we have an offense not tailored to TE's strengths? Do we then draft another QB (worst possible move)?

Seemingly, the WCO would be Trents ideal offense. Seemingly, any other offense, and we stumble just like we did this year. Even with up graded talent at the TE and WR positions. Because seemingly, this horrible offense was tailored to TE's strengths, and he didn't have enough strengths to be all that successful.

Now, I say seemingly, because there is a part of me that hopes TE gets better with a new coordinator. Because as I said, I think/hope the OC was the biggest problem. And, of course experience goes a long way.

But, if all these check downs are TEs decisions. If he is scared to throw it deep. And, he lacks confidence. And, he lacks arm strength as could easily be suspected. Then it is WCO or bust.

Any other offense and those strengths (short passes) could turn into glaring weaknesses.

[YardRat]

Considering he can already run the no-huddle, the Miami game, and the last series of the Washington game I don't see why we can't outscore a team or win a shoot-out if we upgrade a weapon or two and TE gets more comfortable with the speed of the game.

Although he doesn't have as big of a gun as Losman, he still has a decent enough arm to throw long, so that's not a concern.

I believe one of Trent's strengths, at least better than JP anyway, is the mid-range passing game, which will help the running game immensely.

I don't think the play-calling was tailored as much to his strengths as it was to a factor nobody had control over...He's a rookie. Although I agree I would have liked to see Fairchild be a little more daring, you can't just throw a rookie QB to the wolves...He needs to adjust to the speed of the game.

I wouldn't say TE was playing scared, more like close to the vest. As he progresses, so will his confidence, and if this year is any indication it won't be a very slow learning curve.

I think the kid can run any offense...How well only time will tell.

[Philagape]

The game plan wasn't tailored to anyone strengths, but to the offense's weaknesses. We don't have the horses for a shootout.

Yet. :pray:

We were vanilla before JP got hurt, too. And it's normal for a rookie to be a little gun shy. Trent admitted he looked off his deep reads a little too quickly. He'll open up with more experience. He proved he has the arm.

[chernobylwraiths]

This is the most absurd and ridiculous comments on this subject I have EVER seen. Do you really believe this or just slow? Trent Edwards was as good as Marino and Big Ben in their rookie seasons?

Trent Edwards was as good as Marino and Roethlisberger in their rookie seasons? Yes. I can see the comparisons.

If you love Trent as a player then speak your mind about him but do not make asinine statements like this and think the thousands of people on this board are too ******ed to pick up on it. Or maybe you really did believe the comment...

Um, what the hell are you talking about? Wanna take the post more out of context?

[yordad]

The game plan wasn't tailored to anyone strengths, but to the offense's weaknesses. We don't have the horses for a shootout.

Yet. :pray:

We were vanilla before JP got hurt, too. And it's normal for a rookie to be a little gun shy. Trent admitted he looked off his deep reads a little too quickly. He'll open up with more experience. He proved he has the arm.I never heard that? Do you know where I an read/see/hear those comments?

[Philagape]

I never heard that? Do you know where I an read/see/hear those comments?

He admitted it to Schonert. I was thinking of this:
“You don’t want to make the big mistake so sometimes you get off your downfield read a little quick and dump it off,” Schonert said. “He had a tendency to do that. When he sat down [after being injured] he watched J.P. You can always learn from other guys. I think he saw J.P. get it down the field a little bit. So he sensed he’s got to be a little more patient when we have some downfield throws."
http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/story/244768.html

[Oaf]

DJ and co. set up JP to fail from the get go. That's what get me angry.

To be benched after losing against the Jaguars (see last weekend, and hopefully this weekend) on the road no less, with the talent and OC we've got is absolutely rediculous.

[Philagape]

DJ and co. set up JP to fail from the get go.

By having him pass the ball? That'll do it.

Man, EVERYTHING has to go right for this kid. Can't play well unless he's coddled to death. He can't play Cincy at home every week.

[justasportsfan]

He admitted it to Schonert. I was thinking of this:
“You don’t want to make the big mistake so sometimes you get off your downfield read a little quick and dump it off,” Schonert said. “He had a tendency to do that. When he sat down [after being injured] he watched J.P. You can always learn from other guys. I think he saw J.P. get it down the field a little bit. So he sensed he’s got to be a little more patient when we have some downfield throws."
http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/story/244768.html
NIce article written by a Trent fan who spun the statistics to make Edwards look good. Inspite of learning from JP, he regressed especially the last 3 games.

Let the excuses begin.

“We are really happy with Trent, how far he’s come, and we do believe he’s just going to get better,” Bills coach Dick Jauron said.


He said the same ting about both qb's. :rolleyes:

[justasportsfan]

Man, EVERYTHING has to go right for this kid. Can't play well unless he's coddled to death. He can't play Cincy at home every week.


You just described Trent, just change the name to Miami(who won't be as weak anymore with Tuna) and the weather to be California weather.

[Oaf]

By having him pass the ball? That'll do it.



By drafting Edwards in the first place, the Bills Brass put out the first sign. By cutting Nall and giving Edwards all the preseason snaps they put out the 2nd. By pretty much bringing back the WCO the first two games, not playing to win but to not lose, and not utilizing JP's strengths (PA's, mobility/misdirection, slants, spread attack, deep routes) was the 3rd sign. You could just tell when he got injured against NE, the Bills FO was saved a step and silently sighed in relief as the plan was completed to make Edwards the starter.

The thing with JP is, when you play to win, he can make the big play or make the big mistake. But when you play not to lose as we did against Miami and Denver, he's not nearly as effective being conservative with the ball. After an encouraging 2006, I felt JP was ready to make more big plays than big mistakes, although I was ready for those too. But he was never given the chance because of the plan to replace him with Edwards.

If DJ wants to play, "lets not lose" Edwards is the best option easily. But as we saw too often this year, playing "lets not lose" with JP OR Trent meant "lets not win".

Oh, and BTW, next time quote and respond to the 2nd part of that post.

:rant:

[Oaf]

:D

[justasportsfan]

Hopefully someday (next year) , Trents "POISE" can get him ranked 11 in the NFL. I don't care if it's via dinking or dunking or medium range or whatever it is he's good at, I hope he gets there or better for the sake of the bills.

At least JP's been there.

[Philagape]

By drafting Edwards in the first place, the Bills Brass put out the first sign. By cutting Nall and giving Edwards all the preseason snaps they put out the 2nd. By pretty much bringing back the WCO the first two games, not playing to win but to not lose, and not utilizing JP's strengths (PA's, mobility/misdirection, slants, spread attack, deep routes) was the 3rd sign. You could just tell when he got injured against NE, the Bills FO was saved a step and silently sighed in relief as the plan was completed to make Edwards the starter.

The thing with JP is, when you play to win, he can make the big play or make the big mistake. But when you play not to lose as we did against Miami and Denver, he's not nearly as effective being conservative with the ball. After an encouraging 2006, I felt JP was ready to make more big plays than big mistakes, although I was ready for those too. But he was never given the chance because of the plan to replace him with Edwards.

If DJ wants to play, "lets not lose" Edwards is the best option easily. But as we saw too often this year, playing "lets not lose" with JP OR Trent meant "lets not win".

Oh, and BTW, next time quote and respond to the 2nd part of that post.

:rant:

Any QB who needs an offense tailored to his few strengths (and I don't quite agree with everything on your list) is not versatile enough. That's too limiting.
Being more conservative with a rookie is normal (as it is with as poor a receiving corps as we have). Let's see how he plays with experience before labeling him.
I'm all for opening up the offense, but it's better to do that with a versatile and smarter QB. Trent has the tools to play to win, and that will come with experience and better weapons.

And the second part of my response was in response to the Jaguars part. A good QB needs to play well against decent teams on the road. It wasn't just the Jags, it was a history of not rising up against challenging circumstances.

Do you want a QB who only beats up on weak teams? Who needs everyone else to make him play well instead of making those around him better? I don't know if Trent can do that, but JP can't.
JP has had every chance to prove himself for the past three seasons, and no one has hurt him more than himself. Who could blame the team for wanting someone else? JP did not earn entitlement, and he responded poorly to competition.

[justasportsfan]

More double standards.

Just change everything you said about Trent and change it with JP . Same crap different qb. At least with the excuses you made for trent, JP had a decent year in 06 with a crappier OL.

Let's see if Trents poise can do better than what JP did in 06.

[yordad]

Do you want a QB who only beats up on weak teams? Who needs everyone else to make him play well instead of making those around him better? I don't know if Trent can do that, but JP can't.
JP has had every chance to prove himself for the past three seasons, and no one has hurt him more than himself. Who could blame the team for wanting someone else? JP did not earn entitlement, and he responded poorly to competition.Who lost those games against the good teams? The Bills did, not the QB. And, the Bills lost those games this year with either QB. The Bills aren't good. Haven't been for quite some time. But, does that mean both QBs suck? Maybe neither has played the greatest, but I don't think either has been the weakest link (although Trent might have came close in the Dallas game). In fact, I think JP was the best player on offense (between him and Lee) over the second half of last year.

Point is, the Bills haven't beat those good teams because the Bills weren't a good TEAM. If anything, they beat the weak teams last year because of JP, not inspite of him. Did you expect them to beat the Patriots? Do you think we would have beat them if we swapped QBs? Because I know I don't believe so.

Now, if you have a team that rates 4 out of 10 with an solid QB, can a good QB make it a 10? Unfortunately, it isn't something easily proved either way. But personally, I highly doubt it. Can it make the difference when playing other teams rated at 3-6? I think so.

So, in the end this was a bit of a ramble, but I believe JP helps us beat more 4s then TE, but expecting the TEAM to beat a 10 with either is being a little too unrealistic, don't ya think?

More surrounding talent, and adequate coaching would be a nice start. Point is, I don't think it is JP's fault. It isn't JP's job to sign free agents, pick a OC, play run defense, design a game plan, or run routes.

[Philagape]

I wasn't talking about wins or losses or the rest of the team; strictly the QB's performance, since we're talking about the QBs.

[Mitchell55]

Back from the grave.

[yordad]

Back from the grave.I take it you liked it?

[djjimkelly]

I take it you liked it?


by far best break down of QB issues in buffalo!

shouldnt be mind bending after reading this. but for some reason it is!!!!!!!!!!!

[SABURZFAN]

:rofl:


there you have it, folks. the title of this thread says it all. this place sure as hell didn't need "Jim Jones with the Kool-Aid" when this thread was started. how long before people start crying wolf again? :shakeno:

[Oaf]

If DJ wants to play, "lets not lose" Edwards is the best option easily. But as we saw too often this year, playing "let's not lose" with JP OR Trent meant "let's not win".




I still hold to this.

[Oaf]

I still hold to this.
So go ahead and put me on that list SAB.

[justasportsfan]

He proved he has the arm.
He hasn't proven he knows how to use it.

[acehole]

So he will be good with better weapons...Huh sounds familiar.......

Cant quite place it though....

hmm.

Who is this Phil and where have we been hiding this Gem of a genius...

You cant open up an offense with a qb who cant make all the throws.

You cant open up an offense with a guy whos tendencys are throw to his dump off's and not trust his WR to make a play.

AS FOR jp YOU CANT OPEN UP AN OFFENSE.....

When the only opening was Lee charles edwaro philipee jesus larry Evans.

JP plug was pulled early before he had an offense to run even Moran is ranting about our oline...so we have the worst rated run d worst rated pass d no oline (As per moran) a "Poor recieveing corps" as per another moran and we say....here you go JP dont suck up the place.

JP could not beat the Jags you are correct.......but niether could peters evans lynch mcgee and the other 52 on the roster...Jags outclassed us in every phase and that included Delrio running circles around Dick.

When JP wins a game you credit the "WR's making a play" and eveyone else.

This is why you people have no intellectual honesty or any street cred.

As far as Trent...knowbody knows who and what he is and anyone that pretends either way is blowing smoke. I think he is not ready to be a starter...myself....We put the plug in to early. If you want to give him this year and dont expect much then you are being realistic...but be prepared for another losing year. He he has a good situation here now (Trent) with the new personel we have this year new scheme for trents "Stregths" the short high percentage passing game and ball control with lynch. A few more run and pass defenders of good quality and the bills should be better....everything JP deserved.

I for one am tired of waiting which is why I do not support Trent at this time.

The hype doent seem to match his play to warrent the starting job or to garner any excitement for this fan.

We shall see if he turns the corner Thursday....

If not it is just as fun to see you people contort the reasons why.


Any QB who needs an offense tailored to his few strengths (and I don't quite agree with everything on your list) is not versatile enough. That's too limiting.
Being more conservative with a rookie is normal (as it is with as poor a receiving corps as we have). Let's see how he plays with experience before labeling him.
I'm all for opening up the offense, but it's better to do that with a versatile and smarter QB. Trent has the tools to play to win, and that will come with experience and better weapons.

And the second part of my response was in response to the Jaguars part. A good QB needs to play well against decent teams on the road. It wasn't just the Jags, it was a history of not rising up against challenging circumstances.

Do you want a QB who only beats up on weak teams? Who needs everyone else to make him play well instead of making those around him better? I don't know if Trent can do that, but JP can't.
JP has had every chance to prove himself for the past three seasons, and no one has hurt him more than himself. Who could blame the team for wanting someone else? JP did not earn entitlement, and he responded poorly to competition.

[djjimkelly]

When JP wins a game you credit the "WR's making a play" and eveyone else.

.

but some on here was cursing look aaron rodgers had 15 plays to make somthing happen his wrs made a few circus catches but that was all rodgers

[Oaf]

I just can't get over the fact that Eli was given FOUR UNDIVIDED years in which he was often god-awful, and then at the very end of it, he rewards them with a SB run for the ages. We struggled to give JP 1 and a half full seasons, and there ya go, we still have people arguing on both sides with no playoff history and quite possibly, no playoff future.

If we had just put our blinders on and went with JP for 3 straight years we CERTAINLY wouldn't be in a worse position now, and we would have known absolutely sure what we had. We would have either made the playoffs with JP and he'd be starting now, OR he went 0 for 3 and we were going full time Edwards. Now we're banging our heads together as the while DJ is quick to dumb down the game for our offense as well as our opponent's defense. :pissed:

[djjimkelly]

I just can't get over the fact that Eli was given FOUR UNDIVIDED years in which he was often god-awful, and then at the very end of it, he rewards them with a SB run for the ages. We struggled to give JP 1 and a half full seasons, and there ya go, we still have people arguing on both sides with no playoff history and quite possibly, no playoff future.

If we had just put our blinders on and went with JP for 3 straight years we CERTAINLY wouldn't be in a worse position now, and we would have known absolutely sure what we had. We would have either made the playoffs with JP and he'd be starting now, OR he went 0 for 3 and we were going full time Edwards. Now we're banging our heads together as the while DJ is quick to dumb down the game for our offense as well as our opponent's defense. :pissed:

well sadly this didnt happen we would know by now for sure!!!!!!!!!!