QB class 2004

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Now almost 4 years passed, enough time to give us a verdict?

Eli Manning, OK QB. Philip Rivers, OK QB - I think he's a little better than Eli. Ben Roethlisberger, has shown flashes being a HOF one - no question the best out of the group. JP Losman, a dud - unfortunately to the Bills.

I know people are going to say this or that person is not being handled right, or walked right into an ideal situation. Yada yada yada. Let's face it, that kind of stuff is reality in NFL throughout its history. At the end of the day, the truely great ones pull themself up and shine through. Montana is a 3rd rounder; Brady was a 3rd stringer. Elway endured bust labels.

In their 4th year, 3 QBs in the 2004 class managed to take their team to the playoff, multiple time in fact, and all of them have won at least a playoff game. Meanwhile in Buffalo, Losman managed to lose the starting position to a rookie.

We got screwed. One out of four and we have to be the one picking the turd.

[YardRat]

It's Mularkey's fault. I mean Jauron's. No...Wait...Steve Fairchild.

That's it....Fairchild.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Brady was a 5th or 6th rounder... Not 3rd.

Elway endured bust labels. And went on to win 2 SB's. Good thing Denver was patient.

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

Yeah! Fairchild!... no wait, JP is still really a rookie.. no wait.... its (add excuse here)

[don137]

Sad part is that Buffalo really wanted Rothlisberger bad and tried desparately to trade with Houston but Houston wanted a DB (I can't remember his name) and knew the Jets wanted him too and the Jets were picking one pick above Buffalo. As a result they would not make the trade. IMO, if the Bills drafted ahead of the Jets the Texans would of made the trade and Big Ben would of been in Buffalo instead of JP.

[RedEyE]

I'm not at all a Rivers fan. The guy has done more harm then good for the Chargers this year. Honestly I think the Chargers a good QB away from a Super Bowl. They should have never gotten rid of Brees.

Rothlisberger is the best in that class. There are still a lot of questions about Eli. The guy has a common tendancy to back pedal rather then step into the pocket when it begins to collapse.

[SquishDaFish]

Sorry to say but any of those QBs would of failed on this ****ty coached team PERIOD. Do I think the coaching is getting better yes but at that time anyone would of failed.

[colin]

matt schaub was in that draft as well.

only one of the first 5 qbs isn't showing to be at the very least a very solid nfl starter.

we lost to the texans that year too. those td teams sure had some high priced high profile guys, but boy did we ever get beat by some crappy teams.

when we got donte whitner, we lost to like 4 of the teams picking ahead of us.

[RedEyE]

I hate to say it though, Ben would have been trounced behind that pourous line in Buffalo 2004.

[hydro]

Brady was a 5th or 6th rounder... Not 3rd.
And went on to win 2 SB's. Good thing Denver was patient.

You didn't read the post correctly. He said 3rd STRINGER! Not relating to his draft position.

[venis2k1]

I Blame Troy Vincent.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

1. Eli Manning - he has developed very slow. One play he looks great and the next play he looks terrible. I think he is definitely one of the QBs that wins because of the team that he is on. He was so bad against the Bills and yet still won.

2. Phillip Rivers - he was able to sit for a few years and develop. Being in that situation has to be a good thing. There was no urgency in his starting to early. I wouldn't consider him one of the top QBs in the league right now, but he is a solid QB.

3. Ben Roethlisberger - I don't know why a lot of people here rip him, the guy is the best QB of the draft. I fully believe this is the guy that Donahoe wanted but just couldn't get it done. He also has a ring. It still is funny to me how people here rip this guy and try to put him in every scenario to try to put him down.

4. JP - I think we all know where he stands now.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Can we add Matt Schaub? - 3rd round


I am just not a big fan of drafting the 4th ranked QB in the NFL draft. I know I took a lot of flack around here at the time because I would rather the Bills take a shot at Drew Henson, not based on the fact that I thought he was the best QB in the world, but he had potential and it would have only cost a third round pick, which turned out to be Kevin Everett I believe. However, the Bills took a different route and are now in almost the same spot. I guess the difference might be that they would have cut Henson and with this scenario they can trade Losman and at least get some kind of compensation, well if turning a 1st round draft pick into a 3rd round draft pick is compensation.

[Dantheman1280]

Sad part is that Buffalo really wanted Rothlisberger bad and tried desparately to trade with Houston but Houston wanted a DB (I can't remember his name) and knew the Jets wanted him too and the Jets were picking one pick above Buffalo. As a result they would not make the trade. IMO, if the Bills drafted ahead of the Jets the Texans would of made the trade and Big Ben would of been in Buffalo instead of JP.

I think it was Dunta Robinson

[venis2k1]

actully, our thrid round pick that year was Tim Anderson.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

actully, our thrid round pick that year was Tim Anderson.


In 2005? The trade for Henson was a '05 - 3rd rounder. I thought it was Everett. Tim Anderson helps even more.

[Gunzlingr]

I don't think any of those QBs are worth where they were drafted, Worthlessberger maybe, but Rivers and Manning have sucked far more than they have shined.

[colin]

In 2005? The trade for Henson was a '05 - 3rd rounder. I thought it was Everett. Tim Anderson helps even more.

the 04 draft was losman and evans and anderson

the following year was parrish and everett.

03 was mcgahee and kelsey (mcgee was in that draft i think)

02 was williams, reed and bannon

01 was nate, aaron, travis, jonas jennings.

01 was oustanding. 2-5 were horrible.

the more i look at it the more i realize not having bad bad picks in drafts is the key.

and i don't mean you have to draft only awesome players. newman for dallas and jammer for sd were both top 5 picks who never earned their slot, but are still on their teams and can play fairly well. that's much better than a guy who isn't on your team anymore.

picks on guys who aren't necessarily stars, but guys who contribute and sometimes emerge as great or very good players.

tennesse is the best for that. vince young might not be worth his top billing, and steve mcnair might have never been as well, but they always had some many good linemen, backs, and guys on D that they ended making runs.

i say all this to remind myself that it's not just the high flyers that make up the team, and us having a bunch of picks in this next draft might mean that we can extend or sign guy in a year or two because we don't need to go out and get other guys since we have young guns on their way up.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

the 04 draft was losman and evans and anderson

the following year was parrish and everett.

03 was mcgahee and kelsey (mcgee was in that draft i think)

02 was williams, reed and bannon

01 was nate, aaron, travis, jonas jennings.

01 was oustanding. 2-5 were horrible.

the more i look at it the more i realize not having bad bad picks in drafts is the key.

and i don't mean you have to draft only awesome players. newman for dallas and jammer for sd were both top 5 picks who never earned their slot, but are still on their teams and can play fairly well. that's much better than a guy who isn't on your team anymore.

picks on guys who aren't necessarily stars, but guys who contribute and sometimes emerge as great or very good players.

tennesse is the best for that. vince young might not be worth his top billing, and steve mcnair might have never been as well, but they always had some many good linemen, backs, and guys on D that they ended making runs.

i say all this to remind myself that it's not just the high flyers that make up the team, and us having a bunch of picks in this next draft might mean that we can extend or sign guy in a year or two because we don't need to go out and get other guys since we have young guns on their way up.

OK, so I was right, the 3rd round draft pick the Bills would have used was for Everett.

[justasportsfan]

We got screwed. One out of four and we have to be the one picking the turd.


JP- 77.3
Eli-73.4
Rivers- 86.6
Ben- 92.5


JP had NO OL, No coach, no supporting cast.

You might want to fix your typo to " JP got screwed when He got picked in the draft by a turd organization"

[Philagape]

Sorry to say but any of those QBs would of failed on this ****ty coached team PERIOD. Do I think the coaching is getting better yes but at that time anyone would of failed.

Anyone who threw better passes and made better decisions than JP would have done better. At some point you gotta hold the player accountable for how he plays. Keep in mind that JP showed no improvement from 06 to 07 in the same system and with better pass blocking.
Coaching can be blamed for conservative calls and unimaginative plays, but if the complaint is making JP stay in the pocket, well, that's a requirement for an NFL QB. He has to do it sooner or later, and be good at it.
Being able to run is great, but unless he's a freak like Vick, a QB will never succeed if he can't play well in the pocket.

[justasportsfan]

Just like Trent throws picks in the 4th quarter or horrible throws in bad weather. When does he become accountable? He doesn't , he's a rookie . Even though JP has a better percentage. Double standards.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

I've never ripped JP in his 1st, 2nd, and even last year. But com'n, this is his 4th season. It's almost a career. There are late boomers like Rich Gannon. But you can't fill one hand on late boomer franchiase QBs in the NFL history.

It's one thing expecting JP to do better at this point of his career. It's another to expect a rookie to do that. Sorry it is a double standard because, like this thread's main point, 1st round QBs in their 4th year are expected to carry their team in some ways.They are expected to accomplish something. Making rookie mistakes at this point are not acceptable for them.

I think I've said many times here that no matter how low you come from, if you make progress year after year, you have a future in NFL. Edwards certainly started off on a higher platform. What makes or breaks him is his improvement and we're going to see that this fall.

[Philagape]

We certainly can't wait on a late bloomer

[justasportsfan]

In fArichild stayed on, Trent would've eventually become a bust and bills fans would turn on him too. Trent has a second chance. I hope we hire the right OC this time. I'm tired of coaches screwing up this team and it's players.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

I stopped playing that balme game long time ago. You could very well said if Gilbride was not Leaf's head coach, Leaf might be better than Manning right now ...

As in your daily life, this is what I believe how it works. You cannot control what you cannot control. But you can control what you learn and perform. Every one of these NFL coaches out there has something that gets him the job - it's competitive field of stronger one stays whereas weaker one leaves behind. So learn first, decide second. If it's something you don't agree with, discard it. Football field is the the exam. If you perform, everyone sees it. If your brain can only blindly follows what a coach says and cannot reason by yourself, you are not good enough!

That's why I believe if you are good, you'll shine through eventually. 4 years is a long time in NFL, let alone the opportunities Losman was given. Brady, Romo, etc. got practice/pre-season chances only before they got on the big stage.

There is a reason most NFL coaches sit rookie QBs no matter how high you are drafted. You gotta have that learning time, disgesting time. During that time you are prone to make mistakes, dragging the team with you.

Believe it or not, Edwards is still on the learning stage. I'm sure there is a lot of things he's not fully understood yet. But judging by his performance and mistakes he made, he appeared to have grasped a lot more than everyone expected him to and applied his understanding on the field reasonably well. I'm sure Jauron and Co. are giddy about Edwards not because where he is now, but where he might be in the fall and beyond following the normal QB development trajectory.

[Michael82]

Sorry, but Eli Manning has gotten 55 starts in the league and really hasn't shown me much more than JP Losman has in ONLY 32 starts. Also, Eli wasn't dicked around with two different coaching staffs and did not miss his rookie season. Also, if JP has those receivers, especially a big guy like Plaxico, I have no doubt that he would have done a better job. Plus that defense is way better than ours. The line is also good. :yawn:

[Michael82]

I've never ripped JP in his 1st, 2nd, and even last year. But com'n, this is his 4th season. It's almost a career. There are late boomers like Rich Gannon. But you can't fill one hand on late boomer franchiase QBs in the NFL history.

It's one thing expecting JP to do better at this point of his career. It's another to expect a rookie to do that. Sorry it is a double standard because, like this thread's main point, 1st round QBs in their 4th year are expected to carry their team in some ways.They are expected to accomplish something. Making rookie mistakes at this point are not acceptable for them.

I think I've said many times here that no matter how low you come from, if you make progress year after year, you have a future in NFL. Edwards certainly started off on a higher platform. What makes or breaks him is his improvement and we're going to see that this fall.
I love when people bring up the 4th season bull****! The guy has only started 31 games and been a part of 33 games. That's only 2 ****ing seasons! Not a career! Eli Manning has been in almost double the amount and has also had the same coaching staff and system most of the time. JP has gone thru two different head coaches and 2 OCs with their head up their ass! Sure he sucked ass when he had one more chance, against the Jags. But with the way our offense was at the end of the year, do you really believe Trent would have done better? :rolleyes:

[Michael82]

Oh and when JP Losman was actually given the whole ****ing season to be the starter, he actually had some pretty good stats. Better than Eli Manning....

<TABLE class="w655px datatablecell" cellSpacing=0 _extended="true"><TBODY _extended="true"><TR class="datatablehead BUFcolors" _extended="true"><TD colSpan=20 _extended="true">Career Stats more (http://www.nfl.com/players/j.p.losman/careerstats?id=LOS588329) </TD></TR><TR class=datatabledatahead _extended="true"><TD rowSpan=2 _extended="true">Season</TD><TD rowSpan=2 _extended="true">Team</TD><TD colSpan=2 _extended="true"></TD><TD colSpan=10 _extended="true">Passing</TD><TD colSpan=4 _extended="true">Rushing</TD><TD colSpan=2 _extended="true">Fumbles</TD></TR><TR class=datatabledatahead _extended="true"><TD _extended="true">G</TD><TD _extended="true">GS</TD><TD _extended="true">Comp</TD><TD _extended="true">Att</TD><TD _extended="true">Pct</TD><TD _extended="true">Yds</TD><TD _extended="true">Avg</TD><TD _extended="true">TD</TD><TD _extended="true">Int</TD><TD _extended="true">Sck</TD><TD _extended="true">SckY</TD><TD _extended="true">Rate</TD><TD _extended="true">Att</TD><TD _extended="true">Yds</TD><TD _extended="true">Avg</TD><TD _extended="true">TD</TD><TD _extended="true">FUM</TD><TD _extended="true">Lost</TD></TR><TR class="" onmouseover="this.className='over'" onmouseout="this.className=''" _extended="true"><TD _extended="true"> </TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"> </TD><TD _extended="true"> </TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD><TD _extended="true"></TD></TR><TR class=rowAlt onmouseover="this.className='over'" onmouseout="this.className='rowAlt'" _extended="true"><TD _extended="true">2006 </TD><TD _extended="true">Buffalo Bills (http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/profile?team=BUF) </TD><TD _extended="true">16 </TD><TD _extended="true">16 </TD><TD _extended="true">268</TD><TD _extended="true">429</TD><TD _extended="true">62.5</TD><TD _extended="true">3,051</TD><TD _extended="true">7.1</TD><TD _extended="true">19</TD><TD _extended="true">14</TD><TD _extended="true">47</TD><TD _extended="true">332</TD><TD _extended="true">84.9</TD><TD _extended="true">38</TD><TD _extended="true">140</TD><TD _extended="true">3.7</TD><TD _extended="true">1</TD><TD _extended="true">13</TD><TD _extended="true">7</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[justasportsfan]

I stopped playing that balme game long time ago. .


Really?
Now almost 4 years passed, enough time to give us a verdict?

Eli Manning, OK QB. Philip Rivers, OK QB - I think he's a little better than Eli. Ben Roethlisberger, has shown flashes being a HOF one - no question the best out of the group. JP Losman, a dud - unfortunately to the Bills.

I know people are going to say this or that person is not being handled right, or walked right into an ideal situation. Yada yada yada. Let's face it, that kind of stuff is reality in NFL throughout its history. At the end of the day, the truely great ones pull themself up and shine through. Montana is a 3rd rounder; Brady was a 3rd stringer. Elway endured bust labels.

In their 4th year, 3 QBs in the 2004 class managed to take their team to the playoff, multiple time in fact, and all of them have won at least a playoff game. Meanwhile in Buffalo, Losman managed to lose the starting position to a rookie.

We got screwed. One out of four and we have to be the one picking the turd.
that's got , "it's all JP's fault" written all over it.

But wait.....


Believe it or not, Edwards is still on the learning stage. I'm sure there is a lot of things he's not fully understood yet. But judging by his performance and mistakes he made, he appeared to have grasped a lot more than everyone expected him to and applied his understanding on the field reasonably well. I'm sure Jauron and Co. are giddy about Edwards not because where he is now, but where he might be in the fall and beyond following the normal QB development trajectory. Ah , when it comes to Trent he's blameless for stinking up the place.

The double standard is evident .



As in your daily life, this is what I believe how it works. You cannot control what you cannot control. But you can control what you learn and perform. Every one of these NFL coaches out there has something that gets him the job - it's competitive field of stronger one stays whereas weaker one leaves behind. So learn first, decide second. If it's something you don't agree with, discard it. Football field is the the exam. If you perform, everyone sees it. If your brain can only blindly follows what a coach says and cannot reason by yourself, you are not good enough!

That's why I believe if you are good, you'll shine through eventually. 4 years is a long time in NFL, let alone the opportunities Losman was given. Brady, Romo, etc. got practice/pre-season chances only before they got on the big stage.. Rambo would be dead in Iraq if he was sent there with the threee stoogies to win the war. NO one would've succeeded here no matter how good they are.



JPs teammates never blamed him. They rallied behind him and blamed playcalling. Marv didn't draft JP and yet he defended JP.

Seems to me the only ones blaming JP are the Trent fans. What do the players and MArv know, Right?


When Trent fails it's either the weather, The playcalling or the rookie.

Wheh Jp stinks , it's all his fault.

[SquishDaFish]

Great posting Mikey and Justa :clap: Totally agree with you 2

[Michael82]

Great posting Mikey and Justa :clap: Totally agree with you 2
At least we agree on the Bills. Can't say the same thing about baseball teams though. :snicker:

[Michael82]

It appears that they are talking about this on TBD too. Here's a good post and it sums up my thoughts exactly....


And all were put on teams in alot better shape then the Bills

Rivers went to SD (eventually) who have one of the best RB and TE in the game, and now a very good WR. They also have a decent defence
Manning went to the Giants who also have/had a great RB, and WR's, and a good defence
Ben went to Pittsburgh who have one of the better defences, and had a great RB
All of them also have decent o-lines, something the Bills haven't had til this year.

The other thing those guys have had is consistency. They came in and were given the starting job, and stayed there. They were never yanked in and out of games and constantly having to worry about making a mistake and losing their job.

Yesterday they made the comment about Manning and how it could be a do or die game for him because he has been inconsistent, and NY fans are impatient. All I could do is laugh because I keep thinking, if Giants fans are impatient, what are Bills fans?

Eli has started in 55 regular season games (7, 16, 16, 16) with a career 73.4 rating http://www.nfl.com/players/elimanning/care...ts?id=MAN473170 (http://www.nfl.com/players/elimanning/careerstats?id=MAN473170)
Rivers has started 32 games (0,0,16,16) with a career 86.6 rating http://www.nfl.com/players/philiprivers/ca...ts?id=RIV651634 (http://www.nfl.com/players/philiprivers/careerstats?id=RIV651634)
Ben has started 55 Games (13,12,15,15) with a career 92.5 rating http://www.nfl.com/players/benroethlisberg...ts?id=ROE750381 (http://www.nfl.com/players/benroethlisberger/careerstats?id=ROE750381)
JP has started 31 games (0,8,16,7) with a career 77.3 rating http://www.nfl.com/players/j.p.losman/care...ts?id=LOS588329 (http://www.nfl.com/players/j.p.losman/careerstats?id=LOS588329)

Are any of those QB's been the reason why their team is in the position they are currently in?

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=77482

[Philagape]

No other 2004 QB has a promising alternative. If we were stuck with JP, I'd be a little more tolerant. But we're not.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

I love when people bring up the 4th season bull****! The guy has only started 31 games and been a part of 33 games. That's only 2 ****ing seasons! Not a career! Eli Manning has been in almost double the amount and has also had the same coaching staff and system most of the time. JP has gone thru two different head coaches and 2 OCs with their head up their ass! Sure he sucked ass when he had one more chance, against the Jags. But with the way our offense was at the end of the year, do you really believe Trent would have done better? :rolleyes:

Life is never fair. Eli may have born with everything he needs, but the bottom line is he quarterbacked team to playoff and actually won a playoff game. Losman has done neither. Feel sorry for Losman does not accomplish a thing. In this regard I'm with Belichick. Once he belives Brady is better than Bledsoe he moved. Had this happend in buffalo in 2002, I know you'd the 1st people to jump on Bledsoe's defense. But this is a cold world.

[justasportsfan]

Life is never fair. Eli may have born with everything he needs, but the bottom line is he quarterbacked team to playoff and actually won a playoff game. Losman has done neither. Feel sorry for Losman does not accomplish a thing. In this regard I'm with Belichick. Once he belives Brady is better than Bledsoe he moved. Had this happend in buffalo in 2002, I know you'd the 1st people to jump on Bledsoe's defense. But this is a cold world.


I thought you were done blaming and yet you're still pointing the finger at Losman.

Bledsoe couldn't take us to the playoffs. He was a more estblished qb than JP.
When he went to the cowboys , they made wildcard.

Anyone who expects a rookie to come in and take us to the playoffs when Drew couldn't do it is dreaming.

Eli had a better supporting cast and coaching . JP was given a knife to a gunfight.

[justasportsfan]

Eli had Schockey.

People want to draft or find a top Tight end plus wr for Trent. Screw that give him the same TE/wrs JP had and we'll see what Trent can do.

Oh wait, we've already seen it. He's just as bad if not worse but he's got poise when he stinks up the place :ill:

[don137]

JP panics way too much for a four year veteran. He does not have good pocket awareness. He just lacks the intangibles much like Rob Johnson. I truly was rooting for the guy. I even have his jersey but enough is enough. He will never be a great QB.

[justasportsfan]

JP panics way too much for a four year veteran. He does not have good pocket awareness. He just lacks the intangibles much like Rob Johnson. I truly was rooting for the guy. I even have his jersey but enough is enough. He will never be a great QB.

Getting scaked all the time when your OL parts like the red sea can be traumatic.


I agree, Trent is poised ..... even when he stinks. At least he looks good stinking .

I want results. His poise didn't bring us points on the board. While I think he will get better, call a spade a spade. He hasn't proven to be any better than JP. Thank heaven for Marv building him a decent OL. If only TD did the same with JP.

[Philagape]

Rob Johnson

The poster boy for why stats don't tell the whole story. Intangibles matter.

[Philagape]

Also the poster boy for why mental skill matters more than physical skill

(while both are necessary, but that should go without saying)

[Philagape]

From Johnson to Bledsoe to JP, a too-long line of good QBs from the neck down.

[justasportsfan]

Until he proves otherwise Trent belongs to that list except that he hasn't proven to have the arm of those qb's.

[streetkings01]

Anybody that wants to say that Losman walked in to a much worse situation remember this.....The Bills picked after all those teams! Meaning the Bills had a better record than every last one of those teams and when they got some consistant QB play, they all made the playoffs!

[justasportsfan]

Anybody that wants to say that Losman walked in to a much worse situation remember this.....The Bills picked after all those teams! Meaning the Bills had a better record than every last one of those teams and when they got some consistant QB play, they all made the playoffs!

Say what?