2004 1st rounder QB update

[ghz in pittsburgh]

We have one won a superbowl two years ago. and the other two in their 4th year went on to the conference championship game.

And we have one who lost his job to a rookie. A 3rd round rookie no less.

Yet so many are whining that the one lost his starting job is so much better than the others.

So whatever you want to say about Eli Manning. Maybe he is growing in front of your eyes. Maybe, just maybe, that "horrible" game in Buffalo before he went on his current hot streak is not that horrible after all. Heck Edwards fared worse. Maybe the weather has something to do with it?

There is a reason Losman was taken 4th that year whereas the others were in top 11: a significant risk. That risk became a reality. No one, I repeat no one other than guys like Mike would rather have Loman over any of the other 3.

[Oaf]

We were so close to Big Ben. :(

[Don't Panic]

I'll take mt chances with Trent... it would be extremely hard to root for Eli Manning - even in a Bills uniform.

[HHURRICANE]

Seems like we officially got the dud. Out of the first 5 taken we got the worst guy.

The good news is that Trent might be the best out of the 5 taken in 2007.

[patmoran2006]

ya gotta put that 100% on the shoulders of Donahoe and Modrak. It was a terrible move, as evidenced three years later.

Losman with all his physical skills, never showed the maturity and emotional capabilities to consistently be a good quarterback in this league. Not only did we reach for a QB instead of taking a good player; we gave up an extra first round draft pick to do it. I dont remember and I could very easily be wrong, but didnt Dallas end up with DeMarcus Ware in Buffalo's spot of the draft? Or something like that, I dont remember, it's irrelevent.

It's easily one of the worst moves Donahoe and Modrak ever made.

[Kerr]

ya gotta put that 100% on the shoulders of Donahoe and Modrak. It was a terrible move, as evidenced three years later.

Losman with all his physical skills, never showed the maturity and emotional capabilities to consistently be a good quarterback in this league. Not only did we reach for a QB instead of taking a good player; we gave up an extra first round draft pick to do it. I dont remember and I could very easily be wrong, but didnt Dallas end up with DeMarcus Ware in Buffalo's spot of the draft? Or something like that, I dont remember, it's irrelevent.

It's easily one of the worst moves Donahoe and Modrak ever made.

Agreed. Jp's the type of the qb that needs the right coaches and system. Jp sold himself to the bills. He made a great pitch with his confidence and demeanor. That was enough for TD apparently.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

That's why I don't understand so much criticism of the current regime, lile Pat.

Donahoe's theme is gamble on big talent. Look down the names of Clement, Wiliiams, McGahee, Evans, Losman, all are long on physical capabilities. He's betting the talent will come through, even it might take several years on the bench. That was consistent with what he did in Pittsburgh. This approach can produce big stars, but it will have its share of busts because it is extremely difficult to project players' development in NFL couple of years down the road.

Levy may not be a hands-on GM, but he clearly has a different approach to his staff. That is to draft reliable players in top rounds and gamble on later rounds. Whitner, McCargo, Lynch, Poz are not super elite players, but they are all considered very high quality players not likely to be busts. He gambled on a few. Youbody does not look like going to pan out but Edwards likely to.

I expect that approach to continue in 2008.

[Philagape]

Agreed. Jp's the type of the qb that needs the right coaches and system.

It's ironic. When his supporters say that's all he needs, they're undermining their own position by admitting that he's a limited, high-maintenance QB that requires much sacrifice of an offense.

[justasportsfan]

Any qb needs a coach with a brain and an OL . Had Trent been drafted then instead of JP ya'll would be *****ing about him too. He'd be a failure under both Mularkey and Fairchild. Same goes for Eli and Rivers. Even BEn wouldn't have been as good here.

LOl! Moran changing his tune about JP. Some things never change.

[EDS]

That's why I don't understand so much criticism of the current regime, lile Pat.

Donahoe's theme is gamble on big talent. Look down the names of Clement, Wiliiams, McGahee, Evans, Losman, all are long on physical capabilities. He's betting the talent will come through, even it might take several years on the bench. That was consistent with what he did in Pittsburgh. This approach can produce big stars, but it will have its share of busts because it is extremely difficult to project players' development in NFL couple of years down the road.

Levy may not be a hands-on GM, but he clearly has a different approach to his staff. That is to draft reliable players in top rounds and gamble on later rounds. Whitner, McCargo, Lynch, Poz are not super elite players, but they are all considered very high quality players not likely to be busts. He gambled on a few. Youbody does not look like going to pan out but Edwards likely to.

I expect that approach to continue in 2008.

The only two obvious risks on that list are McGahee and Losman. Clements and Evans were both good picks and Mike Williams was regarded as a safe, good pick at the time.

[TacklingDummy]

Not only did we reach for a QB instead of taking a good player; we gave up an extra first round draft pick to do it.

No they didn't. They gave up the Bills number #1 in 2005 for Dallas #1 in 2004. JP Losman did not cost the Bills two #1 picks.

[justasportsfan]

No they didn't. They gave up the Bills number #1 in 2005 for Dallas #1 in 2004. JP Losman did not cost the Bills two #1 picks.

Told you Morans sources are screwed up.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

The only two obvious risks on that list are McGahee and Losman. Clements and Evans were both good picks and Mike Williams was regarded as a safe, good pick at the time.

I thought Mike Williams size was a big concern for many people. I know Mouse wasn't with the Bills at the time but he had said on many occasions that big Mike is probably a better at Guard. So there is risk there to draft him as a tackle. Had Mouse been with the Bills at the time, they might've gone in a different direction with the pick.

In any event, big Mike was a bust. Everyone has one of those once in a while. So if we drop him out of there, 2 solid ones and 2 risky ones still not good enough. Forget about QBs, just imagine if the Bills had two more play makers (like a 1st draft pick should be in their 5th and 4th year) right now. They could well be in the playoff.

[EDS]

I thought Mike Williams size was a big concern for many people. I know Mouse wasn't with the Bills at the time but he had said on many occasions that big Mike is probably a better at Guard. So there is risk there to draft him as a tackle. Had Mouse been with the Bills at the time, they might've gone in a different direction with the pick.

In any event, big Mike was a bust. Everyone has one of those once in a while. So if we drop him out of there, 2 solid ones and 2 risky ones still not good enough. Forget about QBs, just imagine if the Bills had two more play makers (like a 1st draft pick should be in their 5th and 4th year) right now. They could well be in the playoff.


You could argue that Whitner was a risky pick given that he was selected higher then expected and was an underclassman. Lynch was a relatively safe pick - and a logical one with Willis and Okoye off the board. So Marv had one solid one and one risky one.

[trapezeus]

Regarding the QB class, i'm not convinced on Rivers or Manning. they are surrounded with so much more talent. Rivers throws very poorly and has the maturity of an 8 year old. if he were on the bills, he'd probably have done worse than JP

Eli is so volatile. sure, he's hot right now, but he isn't really playing that well. they just happen to be winning. I've always said if JP and eli switched, their performances would be exactly the same. JP in NYG would be playing just as sporadically, and manning would be completly finished.

That isn't to defend JP. It's just that i think the 2004 class is really hyped up. even roesthlesberger was just a game manager. he's getting better, but he's got the complete team and he kind of melted down as this year went on. i think the media types want to see another 1983 kind of QB class, but 2004 isn't that class.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

You could argue that Whitner was a risky pick given that he was selected higher then expected and was an underclassman. Lynch was a relatively safe pick - and a logical one with Willis and Okoye off the board. So Marv had one solid one and one risky one.
You may argue the value of Whitner being darfted where he is drafted, but I don't think anyone can argue that he's solid player, a player worthy of first round status. The last two years showed he can play almost immediately at this level and from what I read, is a real leader in the locker room and a presence London Fletcher like on the field.

Can he be a difference maker safety like Troy and Bob? We don't know and he hasn't showed us yet. I think that's the question people have.

That's my point here. He's safe pick but a lot of praying to be a star pick.

[colin]

jp losman puts up more total zero plays, drives, quarters, and games than any of the other 4 2004 qbs.

rothlesburger is obviously better.

at their worst eli and rivers will put in 4 or 5 good plays and then 1 or two that make you sick. jp puts in 5 or 6 bad plays and the 2 or 3 that make you hope.

both those qbs are in systems that rely on the qb to make hard decisions quickly and to avoid sacks and negative plays (turner and gilbride, who have been run out of many places, now they are looking good). jp has never shown the ability to make the kind of reads and throws those guys are EXPECTED to make every drive.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Regarding the QB class, i'm not convinced on Rivers or Manning. they are surrounded with so much more talent. Rivers throws very poorly and has the maturity of an 8 year old. if he were on the bills, he'd probably have done worse than JP

Eli is so volatile. sure, he's hot right now, but he isn't really playing that well. they just happen to be winning. I've always said if JP and eli switched, their performances would be exactly the same. JP in NYG would be playing just as sporadically, and manning would be completly finished.

That isn't to defend JP. It's just that i think the 2004 class is really hyped up. even roesthlesberger was just a game manager. he's getting better, but he's got the complete team and he kind of melted down as this year went on. i think the media types want to see another 1983 kind of QB class, but 2004 isn't that class.

Good QBs get everyone involved. I see a big difference of Eli now vs what he did earlier. When Dallas forced him to do small things. He did, just like previous week against Tampa. Unlike Losman, who yet to figure out how to play without looking at Evans direction every time.

Rivers - I don't know what's your standard. For every one I know of, and even for almost all reporters and analysts, all point to a solid player who knows how to let his stars do their thing.

And lastly I don't know if you have watched any Steelers games this year. The Steelers offense is pretty much a Roethlisberger show. They had terrible O-Line play this year and not much of a running game. Big Ben was sacked a ton. When he's on, they play like a super team, when he's off, they looked like crap. Their record speaks for his performance overall.

[trapezeus]

Good QBs get everyone involved. I see a big difference of Eli now vs what he did earlier. When Dallas forced him to do small things. He did, just like previous week against Tampa. Unlike Losman, who yet to figure out how to play without looking at Evans direction every time.

Rivers - I don't know what's your standard. For every one I know of, and even for almost all reporters and analysts, all point to a solid player who knows how to let his stars do their thing.

And lastly I don't know if you have watched any Steelers games this year. The Steelers offense is pretty much a Roethlisberger show. They had terrible O-Line play this year and not much of a running game. Big Ben was sacked a ton. When he's on, they play like a super team, when he's off, they looked like crap. Their record speaks for his performance overall.

First off, let me just say that i am done with the JP experiment in Buffalo. So i'm not trying to defend JP. I agree with you on the eli comment you made. Eli can make the short plays and is doing better when taking what he's given. he also has two legit receivers, a TE and two different types of RB's. IF manning's name wasn't manning, he'd be ridden much harder and be as emotionally fragile as jp. there is no way to prove that, but i just feel like when everyone has had enough of Manning, they still don't want to bail because who wants to be the person who bails on a manning?

For rivers, he really has a huge "wind up" for his long pass. it looks like he is pushing the ball more than throwing. and if he doesn't get the protection, he can't get it down the field. I'mnot a QB coach, so i could be wrong. but as a fan of the game, when he throws, i cringe. He also trash talks everyone and lets it get to him. he comes off like a whiny little kid instead of a polished QB.Sure, they're winning now, so its not an issue. but if he's on the other end of that during a losing streak, how quickly do you think the wheels will come off? He also has some above average WR's, an amazing TE and one of the best RB's ever. So he also has much mroe than what JP has.

You are right about Big Ben. the team lives and dies by his performance. and some of his performances have been lights out amazing, and others have been very forgetable. he won a superbowl based on defensive strength and a great running game. He's taking steps to be a real star QB who can shoulder any load, but is still a work in process. The guy is clearly the best of the 4. maybe next year with 2 years of tomlin, he makes his final leap to being the guy who can win wherever, whenever, and however.

The other two are hanging in there, but it's a team game and their position isn't the defining reason on why they are winning.

And Jp is definitely the worst one. no weapons, no short touch on his passes, unable to scan a field to see the play in its entirety, relies only on the long ball, and does more talking (i.e. "i'm going to learn and play better next week" stuff) and not backing it up, emotionally unstable, finding a way to kill games and sulk.

So i hope i cleared up my thoughts a bit more.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

River's delivery is funcky. I remember a big discussion about it in the that draft year because the Steelers were high on him (and figured Roethlisberger would be long gone by the 11th pick). The consensus was not changing his delivery in NFL because it's been effective. So far it proves in NFL that it's the case.

In case you want to know, the Steelers brought in two QBs that year for interview, Rivers and Losman. They ended up picking someone they did not speak to.

[justasportsfan]

Unlike Losman, who yet to figure out how to play without looking at Evans direction every time.

.
you might want to look at the stats so your info is accurate. FActs will show he spreads the ball but you have your opinion.

[trapezeus]

to complete Justa's thought, "stats will show he spreads the ball around quite a bit once its garbage time and teams are playing prevent and stopped the blitzing."

[justasportsfan]

to complete Justa's thought, "stats will show he spreads the ball around quite a bit once its garbage time and teams are playing prevent and stopped the blitzing."
you still didn't bring me the facts sheet that proves he only connects in garbage time. Must be an opinion of yours.

[trapezeus]

is there suppose to be a place i can find this to prove to you that the guy had run the 2 minute drill from the 8 minute mark of the 4th quarter more times than i ever remember any other bills QB?

There is no actual stat that will show you that JP sucks it. You just have to watch the 20+ games and learn to deduce that yourself.

[justasportsfan]

is there suppose to be a place i can find this to prove to you that the guy had run the 2 minute drill from the 8 minute mark of the 4th quarter more times than i ever remember any other bills QB?

There is no actual stat that will show you that JP sucks it. You just have to watch the 20+ games and learn to deduce that yourself.
so I was right. Opinion, not fact. He was decent to some degree(11 ranked qb last year FACT! ) .He also had a better qb rating than Eli with way less to work with. It's also simple common sense that a qb cannot succeed without an OL or OC . I'll let you figure that out.