Anyone else concerned with Kelsay & Schobel?

[Ferrygoat]

Schobel (6.5) and Kelsay (2.5) combined for a total of 9 sacks this season. There were 3 New york Giants DE's with 9 or more sacks, Tuck (10), Strahan (9), and Umenyiora (13). These 3 DE's combined to have 6 more sacks than the entire Bills team. I know we just locked Schobel and Kelsay up with big contracts but i think they have to do something to get pressure on the QB. We need a DE on the opposite side of Schobel to get some pressure while he's getting double teamed.

[Jan Reimers]

I agree. I've been advocating taking a pass rushing DE early in the draft.

[Mahdi]

Schobel (6.5) and Kelsay (2.5) combined for a total of 9 sacks this season. There were 3 New york Giants DE's with 9 or more sacks, Tuck (10), Strahan (9), and Umenyiora (13). These 3 DE's combined to have 6 more sacks than the entire Bills team. I know we just locked Schobel and Kelsay up with big contracts but i think they have to do something to get pressure on the QB. We need a DE on the opposite side of Schobel to get some pressure while he's getting double teamed.
Im concerned about Kelsay and Tripplett.... Tripplett simply doesnt get enough pressure on QBs. They always have the luxury of stepping up in the pocket. Kelsay didnt get enough QB pressures either. He had a couple of big plays all year and was quiet otherwise.

[Meathead]

i think losing poz really hurt the pass rush. one thing very obvious was that he has an excellent nose for the ball on running plays. with him out the linemen had to be more concerned with watching for the run than they would have with poz in there

even with that said i dont know how you cant be concerned with our ends. i mean i think theyre good but not great and probably not worth the money they spend on them. thats a problem that handicaps the entire team because they have less to spend upgrading the rotation that would make the whole unit better

[Owen DeBoard]

You can put another guy opposite of Schobel and it still wont matter. We need some big defensive tackles in the middle to draw double teams.

[EDS]

i think losing poz really hurt the pass rush. one thing very obvious was that he has an excellent nose for the ball on running plays. with him out the linemen had to be more concerned with watching for the run than they would have with poz in there

even with that said i dont know how you cant be concerned with our ends. i mean i think theyre good but not great and probably not worth the money they spend on them. thats a problem that handicaps the entire team because they have less to spend upgrading the rotation that would make the whole unit better

Interesting. The defense was terrible when Poz was playing early in the season. In the long run I expect him to be a solid player, but I don't think his absence had anything to do with the lack of pass rush from the DEs this year.

I think one of the problems was the weight loss by Schobel and Kelsay in the off-season. Both need to bulk up to 2006 levels to regain their effectiveness.

[Mahdi]

You can put another guy opposite of Schobel and it still wont matter. We need some big defensive tackles in the middle to draw double teams.
That's not the style of defense we play. The cover 2 requires DTs that slip by blocks not absorb double teams.

Thats why Minnesota struggles against the pass so much. They run a cover 2 with 2 giant DTs and big slow DEs. Sure they stuff the run but teams throw on them all day. Our problem is we dont have a dominant cover 2 DT like Tommie Harris or Raheem Brock.

[EDS]

Schobel (6.5) and Kelsay (2.5) combined for a total of 9 sacks this season. There were 3 New york Giants DE's with 9 or more sacks, Tuck (10), Strahan (9), and Umenyiora (13). These 3 DE's combined to have 6 more sacks than the entire Bills team. I know we just locked Schobel and Kelsay up with big contracts but i think they have to do something to get pressure on the QB. We need a DE on the opposite side of Schobel to get some pressure while he's getting double teamed.


Interestingly, Osi and Strahan had only 9 sacks between them in 2006.

[YardRat]

I'm not worried, they'll be fine next year.

[hydro014]

If you look at the teams in the conf championships NYG have the most sacks for the season, NE has the 2nd most, SD is 5th. The 3rd and 4th teams with the most sacks is Dallas and Seattle, also playoff teams. The bottom line is the only way to slow down the great QBs is the pressure them: Brady - look at the only team to slow him down, eagles pressured him all day. Romo - the NYG were all over him. P. Manning didnt have a lot of time either. Not only that, but the Cover 2 D is designed to have pressure on the QB on every snap. We don't get that at all. IMO if you want to watch Brady pick us apart every game for the next decade keep our DE the way they are. Yeah we are paying them very well but come on the cap goes up every year, everybody is making more money. I want a DE that puts fear in the QB everytime he drops back. We need DT's too, but they take a little while to develop and I dont see use getting anyone worth anything this year for FA. McCargo will be better next year and we need to draft one in 2nd or 3rd round.

[ddaryl]

I agree. I've been advocating taking a pass rushing DE early in the draft.

Number one priority IMO. We need a disruptor. That and a bonafide double team DT.

[Night Train]

I've seen Schobel 30 yards down the sidelines, trying to cover a RB.

When you run a bad scheme, the stats are predictable.

[yordad]

Better CBs help too. I think our DEs may heve been the beneficiaries of coverage that lasted longer last year. Coverage sacks.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I think it's obvious that you can chalk up that Giants win to their ability to pressure Romo. As the Giants offense kept going 3 and out in the 4th and giving Romo chance after chance, Romo never had time to throw and NY made the plays.

I have long been in the opinon that Schobel is a coverage sack artist. I would love this team to grab a top notch pass rusher in the 1st.

[yordad]

IMO, the reason why our secondary looked so bad at times was because there was no pass rush. Losman could probably pick apart any defense in the league if he could sit back in the pocket as long as he wanted, unfortunately that wasnt the case.What came first, the chicken or the egg? You may be right. Could it be that it was bad last year, but our above average secondary made up for it? :shrug:

[djjimkelly]

I've seen Schobel 30 yards down the sidelines, trying to cover a RB.

When you run a bad scheme, the stats are predictable.


was just gonna say something along these lines our D scheme is horrific and output of key guys show it.

notice final 4 teams in playoffs no cover 2.

final 8 there was colts and jags and both run a serious hybrid version on the scheme.
also the bucs. each team got run all over them when it counted

the cover 2 blows but we will be force fed it at least for 1 more season hopefully not more

[HHURRICANE]

I agree. I've been advocating taking a pass rushing DE early in the draft.


Not to be a know-it-all but I'm pretty sure I got my fair share of negging when I said this was a problem before the season began.

You should have seen the uproar when I said Schobel sucked in week 2.

This team is ready to bring in some young talent at DE. I wouldn't mind seeing us use our first pick on one.

[justasportsfan]

DT is more important

[HHURRICANE]

DT is more important

I'm kind of on the fence with this one. If the Bills are sticking with the current defensive scheme than I think a DE might add some more bang for the buck.

I don't see the Bills signing or drafting a big run stuffing DT so why not draft a monster on the outside that actually will work in the Tampa 2.

[justasportsfan]

I'm kind of on the fence with this one. If the Bills are sticking with the current defensive scheme than I think a DE might add some more bang for the buck.

I don't see the Bills signing or drafting a big run stuffing DT so why not draft a monster on the outside that actually will work in the Tampa 2.
IF team can't run up the middle, they will be forced to run in the outside. Otherswise our DE's will keep trying to support the middle instead of concentrating on getting to the QB.

[HHURRICANE]

IF team can't run up the middle, they will be forced to run in the outside. Otherswise our DE's will keep trying to support the middle instead of concentrating on getting to the QB.

If your theory is correct that we need to bring in 3 DTs because what you are asking for isn't going to be accomplished in one draft.

A stud DE could conceivably get 9 sacks on his own which is way better than what we have now.

Why are we as bad or worse aginst the run when mcCargo was't even on the field last year?

[mchurchfie]

We need a big stud to for more push up the middle and a better DE opposite Schobel. The left side got manhandled way too much. Better push up the middle will make our DE's a lot more effective.

[hydro014]

I am also not a fan of the cover 2, and yes none of the teams left use it all the time. Just remember last year, the 2 teams in the super bowl used it.

I think it can work and work well with the right players. I also think that if your offense can't stay on the field very long the players (smaller/faster) will tend to wear out sooner. Hence, in the 4th quarter getting ran all over.

The bottom line is our D is not where it needs to be to win and win on a consistant basis. IMO we have a good young core, but still a few years away.

Again, IMO, DE and DT are needed. Hopefully 1st and 2nd roud with a WR signed as a FA.

[Owen DeBoard]

That's not the style of defense we play. The cover 2 requires DTs that slip by blocks not absorb double teams.

Thats why Minnesota struggles against the pass so much. They run a cover 2 with 2 giant DTs and big slow DEs. Sure they stuff the run but teams throw on them all day. Our problem is we dont have a dominant cover 2 DT like Tommie Harris or Raheem Brock.
I know thats not the style we run. Look what happened to the colts yesterday. They got tore up. They have the master mind behind this scheme ( Tony Dungy) and could not stop the chargers. It would have been sick to see the colts go up against the Pats with that D. This cover two scheme sucks and so will our D until we change to a different scheme. Raheem Brock did nothing yesterday and did the colts even get a sack? Tommie Harris is always hurt. Say what you want but the deffense needs to stop the run first before you have to be good against the pass.

[realdealryan]

I've seen Schobel 30 yards down the sidelines, trying to cover a RB.

When you run a bad scheme, the stats are predictable.

Somebody gets it! You can't get pressure when the guys who are the BEST on our team at pass rushing are playing coverage!!

[Bmax]

We need players in the front seven... DT,DE AND OLB ....Can't do it all on draft day..

We are going to have to find one in FA... At one of those positions...wr is another spot where we may add someone in FA....


Bmax

[Nighthawk]

Cover 2 has got to go...

[justasportsfan]

If your theory is correct that we need to bring in 3 DTs because what you are asking for isn't going to be accomplished in one draft.

A stud DE could conceivably get 9 sacks on his own which is way better than what we have now.

Why are we as bad or worse aginst the run when mcCargo was't even on the field last year?
I don't want it addressed via the draft. They take a couple of years to mature. Find one via FA.

[Kerr]

I'm more concerned about Kelsay. I'd consider trading him while he's still young. The guy might make a decent olb in a 3-4.

[Philagape]

Our line is simply not good enough for the scheme. What can change quicker?

[LifetimeBillsFan]

The more I think about it, with all of the juniors entering the draft, unless a WR really knocks their socks off at the Combine, I see the Bills taking the best available DT (S.Ellis) or DE (C.Campbell ?) with the # 11 pick in this year's draft despite their obvious needs on offense.

While a more efficient and productive offense would help the Bills' defense, the short-comings of the D-line in terms of putting pressure on opposing QBs and in the running game, especially on third downs, cannot be ignored.

There is depth in this draft at WR and at TE, the Bills' two biggest needs on offense--which means that those positions can be addressed in Rounds 2-3 without their being a significant dropoff in talent if the Bills pass on addressing those two positions right off the bat. CB is a need, but, with M.Jenkins staying in school and the Tampa 2 placing less emphasis on cover corners than other defenses, this is a need that the Bills could probably address later as well.

There's no doubt that the Bills could have gotten better play from K.Ellison than they got from him this season, but, with Poz coming back next season, I would be really surprised if the Bills gave up on Ellison and spent a 1st or 2nd Round pick on an OLB, especially if C.Wire comes back. T-2 team always seem to have one pretty much unknown OLB and have been known to convert players who have played SS or CB in college to OLBs in this system. Additionally, the NY Giants have shown that a defense can be successful with cheaper, lesser-known FAs at LB, if it has a good MLB and solid D-line.

Run stuffing DTs, which would seem to be what the Bills need most, can come from almost anywhere, including the middle rounds of the draft and free agency, it isn't always necessary to grab one at the top of the draft or a guarantee that, if you take one that high, that he will develop into that much better a player than someone tabbed in the 4th round. With G.Dorsey likely to be long gone before the Bills make their pick, the DT who might drop into their lap is S.Ellis of USC. If he does drop to the Bills, the question is going to be whether Ellis has the size to be the run-stuffer that the Bills need. I don't know how they are going to see that, but I can see the Bills taking Ellis if he is still on the board.

If Ellis has already been taken or the Bills brain-trust does not feel that he can give them more at the DT position than someone else that they could (or already have) acquire as a FA or later in the draft, I can definitely see them going for the highest rated DE remaining on their draft board. Aside from the fact that R.Denney will be coming off a recurrence of his foot injury and that there is no guarantee that the Bills will be able to re-sign A.Hargrove, I can't help but recall what then-NY Giants GM Ernie Accorsi said when he drafted J.Tuck and M.Kiawanuka and refused to trade O.Umenyiora: "You can never have enough good pass rushers".

A.Schobel and C.Kelsay (who was re-signed to a big contract as much for his leadership in the lockerroom as his play on the field!) got worn down by having to play so many extra snaps when the Bills were shorthanded at DE early on in the season and the effect of that carried through the season. The inability of the DBs and LBs to make big plays on 3rd downs contributed to that. And, the success of the Tampa 2 defense relies as much on getting a big pass rush as it does on limiting big plays and generating turnovers. All of which lead me to believe that, if there is a big-time pass-rusher that the Bills like still on the board when they pick at # 11, they will take a long hard look at selecting him and that there's at least a 50-50 chance that they will decide to take him (the fact that Schobel is 30 and will be heading into the downside of his career also adds to the likelihood that the Bills will look to add a serious pass rusher as well).

The question to me is more one of which one of the DEs who is likely to still be on the board at # 11 the Bills will consider a better fit for their defense....

[jamze132]

I guess I'll say it again. The reason we couldn't get to the QB this year, unlike last year has to do with Denney more than any other factor. And other factors include incredibly small DTs and a shady secondary.

Back to Denney... When he was healthy last year, he and Kelsay rotated out so they both stayed fresh. Both players are just good enough to play well when they are fresh. So when they were ratating in and out, they got pressure from the left side of the line which in turn made the opposing offense more honest with regards to double teaming Schobel, which they couldn't alwats do.

What happened this year when Denney couldn't play? Kelsay played more and showed everyone why he isn't worth the contract he got. Teams constantly slid preotection over to Schobels side and basicaly took him out of the game.

And what the **** is any DE doing in pass coverage 30 yards down field? I really can't stand seeing that!

Due to our DEs having enormous contracts, we will not be drafting a DE on day 1 for 2-3 years so you better hope we can find a gem on Day 2.

[colin]

Interestingly, Osi and Strahan had only 9 sacks between them in 2006.

CUT THEM BOTH!!1

SWITCH TO TEH 3-4, JUST LIKE WHEN WE HAD BRUCE!!!!!!

wha??!??!?!!

DEs had an off year, maybe they aren't worthless?

impossible

[Mahdi]

I know thats not the style we run. Look what happened to the colts yesterday. They got tore up. They have the master mind behind this scheme ( Tony Dungy) and could not stop the chargers. It would have been sick to see the colts go up against the Pats with that D. This cover two scheme sucks and so will our D until we change to a different scheme. Raheem Brock did nothing yesterday and did the colts even get a sack? Tommie Harris is always hurt. Say what you want but the deffense needs to stop the run first before you have to be good against the pass.
You take one playoff game where the Colts top 2 DL are injured as an example to prove that the cover 2 is bad??

If Freeney and Mathis are healthy the Colts win that game. Those guys make plays every week and even if Freeney doesnt have a single sack he frees the rest of the defense up.

The Chargers game is not a fair assessment. How about you take the whole season into account. Colts D was top 10 and their pass D was #1.

[HHURRICANE]

LTBF is right on with his post. Unfortunately it may not provide any answers.

I watched the Giants win with this year with a tenacious D on the outside.

Those who don't think DE is important need to look at what Gaines did for his team this year.

When did DE not become an essential of this team. Sacks actually put fans in the seats as well!!

Schobel came in 20 pounds lighter because I think he failed a drug test.

[Mahdi]

I guess I'll say it again. The reason we couldn't get to the QB this year, unlike last year has to do with Denney more than any other factor. And other factors include incredibly small DTs and a shady secondary.

Back to Denney... When he was healthy last year, he and Kelsay rotated out so they both stayed fresh. Both players are just good enough to play well when they are fresh. So when they were ratating in and out, they got pressure from the left side of the line which in turn made the opposing offense more honest with regards to double teaming Schobel, which they couldn't alwats do.

What happened this year when Denney couldn't play? Kelsay played more and showed everyone why he isn't worth the contract he got. Teams constantly slid preotection over to Schobels side and basicaly took him out of the game.

And what the **** is any DE doing in pass coverage 30 yards down field? I really can't stand seeing that!

Due to our DEs having enormous contracts, we will not be drafting a DE on day 1 for 2-3 years so you better hope we can find a gem on Day 2.
I could see us taking a DE high this year if one fell to us like Gholston or Harvey. I heard that Kelsay and Schobel's contracts aren't as good as they seem. Also Schobel will be 31 before next season and we are most likely not signing Hargrove. Might as well draft a stud high. You can never have too many DEs as we have seen this year and as the Giants have proven.

Tuck, Strahan, Umenyiora, Kiwanuka.

[TacklingDummy]

Schobel (6.5) and Kelsay (2.5) combined for a total of 9 sacks this season.

How many of those 9 sacks mattered? I remember 1 sack of Schobel's was when he was laying at the QB's feet and the QB tripped over him. The Bills not only got few sacks but they hardly even got pressure on the QB. QB's picked the Bills apart this year. Pressure creates turnovers, pressure helps the secondary, pressure creates big plays.

The Bills were nuts to give Schobel and Kelsay all that money. Especially when Schobel was already under contract for a few more years.

[Ferrygoat]

How many of those 9 sacks mattered? I remember 1 sack of Schobel's was when he was laying at the QB's feet and the QB tripped over him. The Bills not only got few sacks but they hardly even got pressure on the QB. QB's picked the Bills apart this year. Pressure creates turnovers, pressure helps the secondary, pressure creates big plays.

The Bills were nuts to give Schobel and Kelsay all that money. Especially when Schobel was already under contract for a few more years.
They were forced to give Schobel a new deal cuz they overpaid Kelsay and he was making more than Schobel. Everyone knows Schobel is the better DE so to keep him happy they had to give him more money too.