I'm convinced that Schobel failed a drug test.

[HHURRICANE]

You don't lose 20 pounds for no reason unless you needed to get off of the roids.

I'm sure he had his first failure and came off of the juice so he didn't risk his new contract.

His re-signing is by far one of the worst moves in Bills history.

[Jan Reimers]

Geez, HH, could you be a little more negative?

I'm going to watch replays of the last ten Sabres games to cheer myself up.

[HHURRICANE]

Geez, HH, could you be a little more negative?

I'm going to watch replays of the last ten Sabres games to cheer myself up.

Time to draft a DE.

[yordad]

"By far.... one of the worst"? That is like saying I am 100%, partially right.

[Jan Reimers]

Time to draft a DE.
I totally agree with you there.

[X-Era]

You don't lose 20 pounds for no reason unless you needed to get off of the roids.

I'm sure he had his first failure and came off of the juice so he didn't risk his new contract.

His re-signing is by far one of the worst moves in Bills history.

Where do you get this crap?

Schobel was only the second guy since Bruce to get double digit sacks in a season. Hes a helluva player. Is he a top 5 DE? no. Is he "all we need" at DE? no, not IMO. But hes a very good player and we certainly need players like that.

[Ebenezer]

...um...illness cause weight loss.

[streetkings01]

...um...illness cause weight loss.Maybe he was trying to be like Willis, but met the wrong kind of girls?

[mayotm]

HH, based on many of your posts lately, I don't think you'd pass a drug test.

[Dr. Lecter]

If he failed a steroid test he would have been suspended. Steroids don't get a warning.

[TacklingDummy]

"By far.... one of the worst"? That is like saying I am 100%, partially right.

Must have forgot recent failures called Johnson, Williams, and Losman.

[Yasgur's Farm]

I agree with HH to a degree... I don't think he failed a test... But I think he was scared into quitting the demon roids.

Not all is lost however... He'll end his career as a very good outside LB/pass rusher for the Bills. Which makes re-signing Hargrove essential... As well as drafting a day 2 DE.

[Typ0]

maybe he has AIDS.

[HHURRICANE]

HH, based on many of your posts lately, I don't think you'd pass a drug test.

The guy has weighed 263 /lbs since his senior year in college. Inexplicibly, he loses 20 pounds in one off-season and not one official mention from the front office or coaching staff.

I'm waiting for your answer smarty pants.

[Dr. Lecter]

The guy has weighed 263 /lbs since his senior year in college. Inexplicibly, he loses 20 pounds in one off-season and not one official mention from the front office or coaching staff.

I'm waiting for your answer smarty pants.

One positive steroid test = 4 week suspension.

There is your answer.

[HHURRICANE]

Where do you get this crap?

Schobel was only the second guy since Bruce to get double digit sacks in a season. Hes a helluva player. Is he a top 5 DE? no. Is he "all we need" at DE? no, not IMO. But hes a very good player and we certainly need players like that.

Another PLAYER THAT IS ABOVE AVERAGE ON A BELOW AVERAGE TEAM. His wrap coming out of school was he couldn't handle the run and had nothing if he got beat on his first move. Sounds like the same player.

[patmoran2006]

I disagree. It's not one of the worst deals in history.. However, Jim Overdork between this contract and Kelsay may be the worst NEGOTIATOR in history.

Schobel isn't a Top 5 DE in this league, but he is a very good end and perfect for this particular defense. He'd probably be better if he didn't have a waste product like Williams or Tripplett lining up next to him. Schobel didn't have the sacks this year, but he made enough good plays and wasn't nearly as bad as some people here think.

Kelsay on the other hand really WAS one of the worst deals in history. This guy is barely better than Denney and I dont think he's better than Hargrove, period. yet we give this guy $6 million per in the bank? What a joke.

And due to the excessive cash our DE's make, we won't be signing a good FA DE or drafting one early either.

[Devin]

Schobel got what he would have gotten anywhere. Plain and simple.

We are quick to criticize.....well cause as Bills fans its really all we have. But Schobel is hardly the problem. Neither is his contract.

[Dont drink the water]

You don't lose 20 pounds for no reason unless you needed to get off of the roids.

I'm sure he had his first failure and came off of the juice so he didn't risk his new contract.

His re-signing is by far one of the worst moves in Bills history.

Sounds like a post by someone on drugs.

[realdealryan]

Maybe after he found out that the 2007-08 season would be full of RB coverage, he started running. He certainly isn't going downfield with Brian Westbrook at 263...

[gr8slayer]

You're way out of line here. A number of "great pass rushers" saw their numbers go down this season due to offenses keying in on them. I've never seen more two TE sets in my life as I did this season.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

You're way out of line here. A number of "great pass rushers" saw their numbers go down this season due to offenses keying in on them. I've never seen more two TE sets in my life as I did this season.

Excellent point.

With the proliferation of Tampa 2-type defenses around the league, a lot of teams, knowing that the T-2 is vulnerable to the run, have been lining up in 2 TE sets and running the ball against them.

As the Bills learned when they were running a 3-4 defense, the 3-4 also has some vulnerabilities as well, which also encourages some teams to line up in 2 TE sets to run certain plays against the 3-4 defenses that many teams, trying to copy the success of the Pats and Chargers, have installed.

For these reasons, expect to see even higher percentage of plays being run out of 2 TE sets around the league as this trend is likely to continue until defensive coordinators come up with a way to counter them successfully.

As far as Schobel is concerned: It is not unusual to see the sack numbers of top pass rushers fluctuate wildly from year to year (see the numbers of M.Strahan or K.Gabaja-Biamila). There are a lot of reasons why this happens and, sometimes, a drop in sack numbers does not necessarily reflect whether a DE has not been getting pressure on the QB: he may be getting a hand on the QB but not bringing him down or may be forcing the QB to scramble or get rid of the ball quicker than in the previous season, etc., but just not be able to get the QB down for a sack (the NY Giants only had 2 sacks against Dallas, both times when Romo held the ball too long by any measure, but that does not reflect the relentlessness of the pressure that they were able to put on the QB in the game). Another factor can be that a player may play with an undisclosed injury that may take something away from his ability to get sacks consistently--in fact, both Schobel and Kelsay did have injuries during the course of the season (those injuries were not as bad as the injury to Denney, but they may have played a role in how well those two players were able to hold up and perform over the course of the season).

With teams adjusting to the Bills T-2 defense and both Schobel and Kelsay playing more snaps than they would have due to Hargrove's suspension and Denney's injury, Schobel and Kelsay did not play up to expectations. That does not mean that they cannot bounce back, make their own adjustments, and put up good sack numbers next season.

While I do not consider Schobel a top 5 pass rusher, he is a player that opposing offenses have to take into account based on his past performance. He would be helped if the Bills were able to spell him regularly and he had a consistently good pass rusher playing opposite him. IMHO, Schobel is a star who brings a lot to the Bills' defense and generally does his job well, but he is not really a superstar who will make everyone around him better.

Kelsay, who I have never been a particular fan of, has not been consistently good enough rushing the passer to take the pressure off of Schobel--he's an average DE, not much more. What netted Kelsay the contract that the Bills gave him was not so much his play on the field, but his leadership in the lockerroom.

Those who have paid close attention know that, while Schobel and Crowell were the best defensive players retained by M.Levy after L.Fletcher, TKO and N.Clements left, neither Schobel nor Crowell are very vocal in the lockerroom--indeed, Schobel is known more for being the "silent-type" and Crowell voiced concerns to the media about suddenly a leadership position on the team because he was not really comfortable speaking up or speaking out in the lockerroom.

On the other hand, Kelsay, who had been a team captain in college, was one of the few players who had spoken up about individual responsibility during the disastrous 2005 season. Before D.Whitner emerged as a team leader during the course of this past season, Kelsay and Hargrove were really the Bills only vocal leaders on the defensive side of the ball--and Hargrove's ability to lead in the lockerroom was hampered by not only his impending suspension, but also by the fact that he was a new addition to the team. In short, Kelsay was the only holdover player from the previous regime who was capable of taking a leadership role in the lockerroom and actually get the other holdover veterans to follow him (note the support that Schobel gave him before and after he re-signed with the Bills). From what I could tell, Kelsay was given the money that he was given to re-sign by the Bills as much for this reason as for his play on the field--because, in order for the Bills to be able to rebuild their defense successfully, the Bills needed to have a vocal veteran leader, a holdover from the previous regime, on their defense until leaders could emerge from the younger players that they were bringing in (as D.Whitner has).

Because the pass rush is so important to the success of a T-2 defense and it is a system that relies so much on rotating D-linemen, I would not be at all surprised if the Bills draft a pass rushing DE early on in this year's draft. As GB and the Giants have shown, you can never have enough pass rushers and, with Denney's foot making him a question-mark and Hargrove being a UFA, the Bills certainly can use another pass rushing DE. It doesn't matter how much money the Bills already have invested in the position: you take a quality pass rusher when you can get him and, with Schobel already over 30, if the Bills can get a good pass rusher in this draft the pick and the money won't end up being wasted.

[kernowboy]

Is it not possible that Schobel has always bulked up to make sure he got to play as a DE rather than a OLB?

When he was younger he could retain his speed despite playing heavy but as he's got older, he has to decide, do I keep the weight or look to play lighter and retain the speed.

Simply because he stuck to a strict diet and fitness regime rather than have an offseason cheeseburger diet doesn't mean there is anything sinister here.

[Romes]

his sack totals were down but he had one of his best years (if not the best) against the run which would contradict the fact that his weight loss negatively affected his play.

[Yasgur's Farm]

It's simple math...

1) Schobel lost 8% of his body weight (21/263).
2) He never appeared to have much fat on his body.
3) Therefore, the loss of weight must have been (in large part) muscle mass.
4) IS THAT A GOOD THING? It's an inevitable thing if you're coming off the juice.

The weight loss did not necessarily affect his play... However, IMO, it makes him a better LB than DE.

[Romes]

It's simple math...

1) Schobel lost 8% of his body weight (21/263).
2) He never appeared to have much fat on his body.
3) Therefore, the loss of weight must have been (in large part) muscle mass.
4) IS THAT A GOOD THING? It's an inevitable thing if you're coming off the juice.

The weight loss did not necessarily affect his play... However, IMO, it makes him a better LB than DE.

the only math in your post is #1

[dannyek71]

You don't lose 20 pounds for no reason unless you needed to get off of the roids.

I'm sure he had his first failure and came off of the juice so he didn't risk his new contract.

His re-signing is by far one of the worst moves in Bills history.


Chris Watson
Drew
JP
RJ
Tom Donahoe
Mike Williams
Greg Williams
Mularky



I dont place the Schobel signing anywhere even close to one of the worst moves in Bills history. And those names are just from the last few years.

[The King]

maybe he has AIDS.

:spit:

Unfortunately Schobel is just a quiet dude, he's not a great leader clearly (Kelsay being named CAPT over him) he's just kind of introverted which kind of sucks for the whole D because he's an established vet and if he had that fire to lead we could probably see bigger things out of him. He just seems content doing "his job".

[The King]

Chris Watson
Drew
JP
RJ
Tom Donahoe
Mike Williams
Greg Williams
Mularky



I dont place the Schobel signing anywhere even close to one of the worst moves in Bills history. And those names are just from the last few years.

I agree with all of that except for Drew and Greg Williams... those two were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[mayotm]

The guy has weighed 263 /lbs since his senior year in college. Inexplicibly, he loses 20 pounds in one off-season and not one official mention from the front office or coaching staff.

I'm waiting for your answer smarty pants.I don't know why he lost weight. Neither do you. The difference is that I'm not ignorant enough to start a thread accusing the guy of using steroids.

[Wys Guy]

You don't lose 20 pounds for no reason unless you needed to get off of the roids.

I'm sure he had his first failure and came off of the juice so he didn't risk his new contract.

His re-signing is by far one of the worst moves in Bills history.

I'm convinced that his new contract is ridiculous and was when they gave it to him. Naturally they had to given the equally ridiculous contract they gave Kelsay.

Put in perspective, DE Justin Tuck of the Giants just got one worth less (annually) than Kelsay's and he's already a better DE after what, three seasons in the league. At least he's good at stopping the run with equal or better pass rushing skills.

Schobel's 31 this coming season with a huge contract.

Yeaaahhh cash to cap!! or whatever entirely lacking methodology is now being applied among the many losing ones at OBD.

Oh yeah, and BTW, did anyone see that now having a FB is imperative when prior to this season both Jauron and Levy insisted that our "system" doesn't need one.

Do these guys really know what they're doing. (rhetorical since the answer's obvious)

Hell, even the Fanball guys hadn't heard of Schonert.

As long as Wilson's happy!!!

[HHURRICANE]

It's simple math...

1) Schobel lost 8% of his body weight (21/263).
2) He never appeared to have much fat on his body.
3) Therefore, the loss of weight must have been (in large part) muscle mass.
4) IS THAT A GOOD THING? It's an inevitable thing if you're coming off the juice.

The weight loss did not necessarily affect his play... However, IMO, it makes him a better LB than DE.

Draz, I appreciate this post.

1) The guy was ripped at 263/lbs. He had no extra body fat. That's why many of us went nuts when he came into camp 20 pounds lighter.

2) Normally when a player is asked to lose weight for a scheme, etc. it's reported. Did I miss the report?

3) If I come off of a pro bowl season why would I want to lose 20 pounds?

Everyone go back and watch the tape. The guy got manhandled one on one. The double team garbage is a big "fairy tale".

[HHURRICANE]

his sack totals were down but he had one of his best years (if not the best) against the run which would contradict the fact that his weight loss negatively affected his play.

He did?

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=ysptblthbody1 align=right height=18><TD class=yspdetailttl align=left>Season</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl align=left>Team</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>G</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>Solo</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>Ast</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>Total</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>Sack</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>YdsL</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>Int</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>Yds</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>IntTD</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>DefTD</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>FFum</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>PD</TD><TD class=yspdetailttl>Sfty</TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right height=16><TD class=yspscores align=left> 2001</TD><TD class=yspscores align=left>Buffalo</TD><TD class=yspscores>16</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>31</TD><TD class=yspscores>11</TD><TD class=yspscores>42</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>6.5</TD><TD class=yspscores>44</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>2</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right height=16><TD class=yspscores align=left> 2002</TD><TD class=yspscores align=left>Buffalo</TD><TD class=yspscores>16</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>34</TD><TD class=yspscores>18</TD><TD class=yspscores>52</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>8.5</TD><TD class=yspscores>63</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>2</TD><TD class=yspscores>4</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right height=16><TD class=yspscores align=left> 2003</TD><TD class=yspscores align=left>Buffalo</TD><TD class=yspscores>16</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>38</TD><TD class=yspscores>22</TD><TD class=yspscores>60</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>11.5</TD><TD class=yspscores>73</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>1</TD><TD class=yspscores>6</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>1</TD><TD class=yspscores>3</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right height=16><TD class=yspscores align=left> 2004</TD><TD class=yspscores align=left>Buffalo</TD><TD class=yspscores>16</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>46</TD><TD class=yspscores>27</TD><TD class=yspscores>73</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>8.0</TD><TD class=yspscores>48</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>5</TD><TD class=yspscores>4</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right height=16><TD class=yspscores align=left> 2005</TD><TD class=yspscores align=left>Buffalo</TD><TD class=yspscores>16</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>54</TD><TD class=yspscores>17</TD><TD class=yspscores>71</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>12.0</TD><TD class=yspscores>81</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>1</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>2</TD><TD class=yspscores>5</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right height=16><TD class=yspscores align=left> 2006</TD><TD class=yspscores align=left>Buffalo</TD><TD class=yspscores>16</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>35</TD><TD class=yspscores>18</TD><TD class=yspscores>53</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>14.0</TD><TD class=yspscores>98</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD class=yspscores>3</TD><TD class=yspscores>3</TD><TD class=yspscores>0</TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right height=16><TD class=yspscores align=left> 2007</TD><TD class=yspscores align=left>Buffalo</TD><TD class=yspscores>16</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>45</TD><TD class=yspscores>12</TD><TD class=yspscores>57</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=yspscores>6.5</TD><TD class=yspscores>38</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Dr. Lecter]

2) Normally when a player is asked to lose weight for a scheme, etc. it's reported. Did I miss the report?


Yes. It was discussed prior to the season.

[Romes]

He did?



yes.

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=140801

[HHURRICANE]

Yes. It was discussed prior to the season.

LINK?

[Bert102176]

HH please just say NO

[HHURRICANE]

HH please just say NO

These are my favorite retorts. Nothing to back it up with.

The guy loses 20 pounds before the season begins and people are concerned. He has his worst year since his rookie campaign and now I'm nuts for bringing it up.

[venis2k1]

Julius Peppers also clearly on steroids... :rolleyes:

[gr8slayer]

Julius Peppers also clearly on steroids... :rolleyes:
He actually was his rookie year and got busted for it....... But your point is well taken.

[camelcowboy]

The guy has weighed 263 /lbs since his senior year in college. Inexplicibly, he loses 20 pounds in one off-season and not one official mention from the front office or coaching staff.

I'm waiting for your answer smarty pants. Weight watchers, Nuetra System, LA weight loss, Slim Fast, Trim spa, Akins, Bowflex, Susan Summer's thigh master, and tapeworms all are a fun way to lose 20 pounds.

[camelcowboy]

The way our defensive line has played i highly any of them are taking performance enhancers. If they are they need fire their dealer, because they are getting ripped off.

[HHURRICANE]

The way our defensive line has played i highly any of them are taking performance enhancers. If they are they need fire their dealer, because they are getting ripped off.


That's pretty funny.

[Spiderweb]

It's simple math...

1) Schobel lost 8% of his body weight (21/263).
2) He never appeared to have much fat on his body.
3) Therefore, the loss of weight must have been (in large part) muscle mass.
4) IS THAT A GOOD THING? It's an inevitable thing if you're coming off the juice.

The weight loss did not necessarily affect his play... However, IMO, it makes him a better LB than DE.

Excuse me, but are you saying he lost only fat and absolutely no lean muscle mass? Do you have the before and after data to support your overly simplistic conclusion?

[m1orenz]

He actually was his rookie year and got busted for it....... But your point is well taken.

ephedra is not steriods

its an over the counter weight loss supplement that was banned since it is very dangerous


please know the facts before you open your mouth next time

[gr8slayer]

ephedra is not steriods

its an over the counter weight loss supplement that was banned since it is very dangerous


please know the facts before you open your mouth next time
Which carries the same penalty as steroids under the NFL's illegal substances rule.

Both are taken to gain a competitive advantage over the competition, both are illegal, both are dangerous, both are cheating. Tomato/Potato

[Yasgur's Farm]

Excuse me, but are you saying he lost only fat and absolutely no lean muscle mass? Do you have the before and after data to support your overly simplistic conclusion?WHAT? Can you read?

3) Therefore, the loss of weight must have been (in large part) muscle mass.

[m1orenz]

Which carries the same penalty as steroids under the NFL's illegal substances rule.

Both are taken to gain a competitive advantage over the competition, both are illegal, both are dangerous, both are cheating. Tomato/Potato

you really cant be serious trying to compare ephedra with steroids

steroids build muscle, weight loss supplements do not.


yes he did deserve the 4 game suspension for using the banned substance, but saying he used steroids is false

[gr8slayer]

you really cant be serious trying to compare ephedra with steroids

steroids build muscle, weight loss supplements do not.


yes he did deserve the 4 game suspension for using the banned substance, but saying he used steroids is false
Christ lady. I realize that he used Ephedra, I simply forgot that it was Ephedra and not steroids, it was only what? Seven years ago, and spare me trying to explain what each drug does. I've been in the sport long enough and seen people use it enough to know what each drug that you know about, and those that you don't know about do to a person.

BTW, muscle building is a very, very small part of the reason why people take steroids.

Your initials wouldn't happen to be PM would they?

[m1orenz]

Christ lady. I realize that he used Ephedra, I simply forgot that it was Ephedra and not steroids, it was only what? Seven years ago, and spare me trying to explain what each drug does. I've been in the sport long enough and seen people use it enough to know what each drug that you know about, and those that you don't know about do to a person.

BTW, muscle building is a very, very small part of the reason why people take steroids.

Your initials wouldn't happen to be PM would they?

ooooo, calling me a girl. Very classy

and steroids is all about muscle building. Whether it is to gain mass or to repair injuried tissue.

but please go back to the personal attacks

[gr8slayer]

ooooo, calling me a girl. Very classy

and steroids is all about muscle building. Whether it is to gain mass or to repair injuried tissue.

but please go back to the personal attacks
Get your facts strait before you open your mouth. Steroids have multiple medical uses and 3/4th's of them have nothing to do with muscle building or repair.

Just shut your mouth, you have no clue what you're talking about.

[m1orenz]

Get your facts strait before you open your mouth. Steroids have multiple medical uses and 3/4th's of them have nothing to do with muscle building or repair.

Just shut your mouth, you have no clue what you're talking about.

i guess i should get my facts from you

ephedra=steroids according to you. Any other great knowledge you can drop for me?

[gr8slayer]

i guess i should get my facts from you

ephedra=steroids according to you. Any other great knowledge you can drop for me?
You've got to be related to FTP in some way.

[Spiderweb]

WHAT? Can you read?

OK, my bad, must have had too many beverages earlier. After re-reading your post, what I thought I read wasn't there.