Improvement on the O-Line

[YardRat]

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/21069.html

Though neither Dockery nor Walker had a spectacular, Pro Bowl-caliber season, the pair did enough to greatly improve the Bills' offensive line. Want evidence of that? Consider that Buffalo's quintet of blockers yielded just 26 sacks in 16 regular-season games. That number, 26, is the fewest amount of sacks the Bills have surrendered since they became an official statistic in 1982. Just one year prior, when Dockery was in Washington and Walker was a much-maligned member of the Raiders, the Bills allowed a whopping 47 sacks. Therefore, the team's amount of sacks given up fell nearly 50 percent in one season, which is certainly extraordinarily impressive.

[TacklingDummy]

It also has alot to do with the QB. Where Trent would get rid of the ball quickly, JP would hold on to it. If JP was the QB all year the Bills would have been sacked more than 26 times.

[TacklingDummy]

In 2006

JP was sacked 47 times. 429 pass attempts, Sacked every 9.1 times.

in 2007

JP: 14 sacks, 175 attempts, once every 12.5 times

TE: 12 sacks, 269 attempts, once every 22.4 times

[mush69]

Lets not forget Peters who not only moved to the left side but did have a pro bowl spot till he was injured.

Dockery and Walker additions along with Peters on the left was huge for us this year.

[Wys Guy]

http://www.realfootball365.com/nfl/articles/21069.html

Though neither Dockery nor Walker had a spectacular, Pro Bowl-caliber season, the pair did enough to greatly improve the Bills' offensive line.

If this is true, then the rest of our offense including the coaching, rest of the line, and skill position players really, really sucked, because we scored fewer points than any other team and were the worst in the red zone too.

That in no way suggests that our OL was good.

But hey, there are people out there that believe the moon is actually made of cheese no doubt.

[Mahdi]

If this is true, then the rest of our offense including the coaching, rest of the line, and skill position players really, really sucked, because we scored fewer points than any other team and were the worst in the red zone too.

That in no way suggests that our OL was good.

But hey, there are people out there that believe the moon is actually made of cheese no doubt.
If anything the fact that the rest of our offensive positions sucked only proves that our OL had a great year. Despite our WRs and TEs not getting open quick enough our line still held up long enough to avoid sacks...

[SquishDaFish]

TD the QB had a small part in that your right but only a small part. Our OL was 100% improved. And yes Wys we didnt have enough playmakers/skill players and the playcalling was atrocious. When you rather have Gilbride or Mularky you know the playcalling was horrible LMAO

[Wys Guy]

If anything the fact that the rest of our offensive positions sucked only proves that our OL had a great year. Despite our WRs and TEs not getting open quick enough our line still held up long enough to avoid sacks...

LOL

Sure Mahdi.

And naturally the team bending over backwards to formulate an entire offense predicated on just about entirely 3 and 5 step drops, yet utterly ineffective due to the lack of any significant medium to deep passing game, has nothing to do with that, eh.

Perhaps you can explain to everyone then why Losman, a passer more typical of the NFL today, was subject to one sack every 12.5 attempts (poor) while Edwards was subject to one sack every 22.5 attempts (slightly above average), yet while being less effective than JP?

[SquishDaFish]

Wys the main problem with the O was lack of talent at WR/TE positions and the crap Ocord they call ****child.

[Wys Guy]

TD the QB had a small part in that your right but only a small part. Our OL was 100% improved. And yes Wys we didnt have enough playmakers/skill players and the playcalling was atrocious. When you rather have Gilbride or Mularky you know the playcalling was horrible LMAO

Oh, the play calling was horrible. But it's not going to get all that much better under Schonert. That much I promise you. Particularly with Jauron's oversight.

But to suggest that Evans, Reed, and Parrish were so bad that the Bills couldn't move the ball well is absurd.

And what about Lynch? Are you suggesting that he's not very good now too? Doesn't he have "hands?"

So in essence, what you're suggesting is that we have a line but no talent at QB, WR, or RB.

Please explain?

[SquishDaFish]

I didnt say RB first off. And the WRs werent great. Evans didnt do much at all. I would say it seemed Reed came up big at times. But thats it. The playcalling was the main part that ruined this O to begin with. Hopefully Turk wont have his head up his ass too but we shall see

[Wys Guy]

Wys the main problem with the O was lack of talent at WR/TE positions and the crap Ocord they call ****child.

OK.

I'll just default to my own analyses then that have turned out to be nearly perfect forecasts of our team for years.

The main problems with the O are numerous.

1. Our OL isn't nearly as good as we thought it was or would be. McNally's now gone, but his understudy w/ hardly any experience and little results now takes over. Good? I suggest not.

2. Fairchild was a moron. Who hired Fairchild? Jauron and Levy. What did they say about him? Same things they're saying about Schonert. I rest my case.

3. Edwards is massively overrated. You'll find that out soon if you don't believe it now. The writing was on the wall for him in college when he only stepped up vs. one crap team while crapping against the others. Ditto here. He stepped up against Miami and has otherwise posted some of the worst rookie performances ever. Losman ain't the answer either but he's better than Edwards FWIW.

4. We don't have the talent at WR, but it's not so bad that we should have ranked DFL in scoring this season. Behind the Niners? Raiders? Bucs? Fins? Jets? I mean do we have the absolute worst skill position talent in the entire league now offensively? If so, then I rest my case there too.

5. Lynch is also overrated. He's good, but from what I've seen he will never be any more than an "all you need" RB, but never a RB that singlehandely carries games. And if you disagree, then what about all those times where we lined up three or four WRs? And it was often. 165 times w/ Edwards alone. With such a great line, why couldn't Lynch perform better?
Where are all the 100-yard games?

6. We don't use our TEs, less so than just about every team in the league despite our talking about it every offseason with promises by those pouring the medicine down your throat that we will.

7. Jauron's a moron, the personnel office, some of which were just promoted do a poor job, and the organization has a losing corporate culture from top to bottom now.

That about sums it up. But this nonsense that our OL was great yet every other aspect of our O was so bad that we were DFL in scoring is absurd.

Evans alone is a very good WR and Reed has proven to be a good slot guy during those instances where the QBs play well. Parrish, while a role player, nothing more, also adds "an element." Granted, neither he nor Reed are great, but they're not so damned bad that it should merit our DFL status alongside Evans and Lynch all other things being equal, which you not only suggest, but suggest that they are better, not equal.

No sale!

[Wys Guy]

.Evans didnt do much at all.

Ding, ding, ding, ding!!!

Let's see what we have in the prize drawer; free admission to training camp in August.

Please explain why a third year WR who had averaged 8 TDs per season and was otherwise showing flashes of top-10 status regressed so much and "didn't do much at all," with a new QB and a better OL?

Dude!

[Wys Guy]

I can't discuss like this. It's comparable to nearly drowning yourself, reviving yourself, and then repeating a dozen times.

LOL

[mysticsoto]

OK.

I'll just default to my own analyses then that have turned out to be nearly perfect forecasts of our team for years.

The main problems with the O are numerous.

1. Our OL isn't nearly as good as we thought it was or would be. McNally's now gone, but his understudy w/ hardly any experience and little results now takes over. Good? I suggest not.

They improved. That's what's positive and they can still continue to improve more. Pass blocking is great. If they can get their run blocking together, they could move to elite status! Are they good? Yes. Great? No.

2. Fairchild was a moron. Who hired Fairchild? Jauron and Levy. What did they say about him? Same things they're saying about Schonert. I rest my case.

No argument here except that, removing Fairchild improves us just by him not being there making the calls. The only possible good think with Schonert is that he saw what Fairchild did (which did not work) and hopefully that means he won't do the same.

3. Edwards is massively overrated. You'll find that out soon if you don't believe it now. The writing was on the wall for him in college when he only stepped up vs. one crap team while crapping against the others. Ditto here. He stepped up against Miami and has otherwise posted some of the worst rookie performances ever. Losman ain't the answer either but he's better than Edwards FWIW.

I don't think you have enough to judge TE based on his rookie season. As of yet the door is open and we'll have to wait and see what he does in his 2nd year to judge better. JP has had 6 yrs. Clearly he is not the answer, so it doesn't hurt to give another guy a shot!

4. We don't have the talent at WR, but it's not so bad that we should have ranked DFL in scoring this season. Behind the Niners? Raiders? Bucs? Fins? Jets? I mean do we have the absolute worst skill position talent in the entire league now offensively? If so, then I rest my case there too.

I disagree. It is that bad. With no one to draw cover from Evans, they only have to worry about him - that makes it easy on defenses - lean the safety toward Evans side and we'll ensure that they can't get anything out of him. Our "pretending" 2nd WR could have been covered by team's 4th and 5th stringers with no problem..

5. Lynch is also overrated. He's good, but from what I've seen he will never be any more than an "all you need" RB, but never a RB that singlehandely carries games. And if you disagree, then what about all those times where we lined up three or four WRs? And it was often. 165 times w/ Edwards alone. With such a great line, why couldn't Lynch perform better?
Where are all the 100-yard games?

Again, this is bullcrap. Lynch got 1115 yds in 14 games (remember - he was out due to injury for 2 games) and this with an OLine that you have criticized! The Oline admittedly did nothing to help him whatsoever. Those yards he got on his own! Give him a decent hole to run through every time and he'll give you those 100 yd games you want. Clearly he was a load to bring down and fought hard for yards. The kid has heart - something we haven't had at the position since Travis left.

6. We don't use our TEs, less so than just about every team in the league despite our talking about it every offseason with promises by those pouring the medicine down your throat that we will.

Agreed here. We need to use our TEs more. Alot of this will depend on what Schonert plans to do. If we go to a WCO, TE becomes alot more important! All indications are that they will look to improve this area.

7. Jauron's a moron, the personnel office, some of which were just promoted do a poor job, and the organization has a losing corporate culture from top to bottom now.

Some people may debate that Jauron even matching last years record with the crazy amt of injuries we had is an accomplishment in and of itself. Yes, right now you are rolling your eyes at that. But the team is better off now than it was 2 years ago, despite what it may seem.

That about sums it up. But this nonsense that our OL was great yet every other aspect of our O was so bad that we were DFL in scoring is absurd.

All in all, there were many things that contributed to us having the record we had. Oline was great, but much better than previously. But not having a viable 2nd WR or TE does hurt the offense and the Oline not being able to create holes hurts the running game. On D, numerous injuries hurt us - Poz and Ko being the biggest losses, but also the Dline not being able to get enough of a pass rush on most teams. This is probably the single most important thing that has to change in our defense or it will not improve no mattter who we put at LB, CB or S.

Evans alone is a very good WR and Reed has proven to be a good slot guy during those instances where the QBs play well. Parrish, while a role player, nothing more, also adds "an element." Granted, neither he nor Reed are great, but they're not so damned bad that it should merit our DFL status alongside Evans and Lynch all other things being equal, which you not only suggest, but suggest that they are better, not equal.

No sale!

[bigbub2352]

We add a legite C and allow Peters, Butler, Dockery and Walker to develop together, we could have an outstanding line, we need someone that is a beast in the middle and the death star will be completely operational lol

[YardRat]

OK.

I'll just default to my own analyses then that have turned out to be nearly perfect forecasts of our team for years.

Really? Do you keep stats and if you do could you post them for our review? That would be interesting to see, to say the least.



The main problems with the O are numerous.

1. Our OL isn't nearly as good as we thought it was or would be. McNally's now gone, but his understudy w/ hardly any experience and little results now takes over. Good? I suggest not.

The O-line was actually pretty decent, especially considering all the x-factors they dealt with throughout the year.



2. Fairchild was a moron. Who hired Fairchild? Jauron and Levy. What did they say about him? Same things they're saying about Schonert. I rest my case.


Fairchild was a moron, if anything Turk said to the media is true. The fact that he acknowledged those short-comings already puts him ahead of the game. You can rest your case all you want, but the real evidence doesn't come to light until this season and we see how Schonert does.



3. Edwards is massively overrated. You'll find that out soon if you don't believe it now. The writing was on the wall for him in college when he only stepped up vs. one crap team while crapping against the others. Ditto here. He stepped up against Miami and has otherwise posted some of the worst rookie performances ever. Losman ain't the answer either but he's better than Edwards FWIW.


Again, since you fancy yourself a stat-man, could you post the numbers that indicate where TE's performances rank again other rookies historically to back your claim?



4. We don't have the talent at WR, but it's not so bad that we should have ranked DFL in scoring this season. Behind the Niners? Raiders? Bucs? Fins? Jets? I mean do we have the absolute worst skill position talent in the entire league now offensively? If so, then I rest my case there too.


Worst? No. Youngest? Most likely. Show me two other instances in the entire history of the NFL where a team had a 1000-yard rookie rusher and passer in the same year.



5. Lynch is also overrated. He's good, but from what I've seen he will never be any more than an "all you need" RB, but never a RB that singlehandely carries games. And if you disagree, then what about all those times where we lined up three or four WRs? And it was often. 165 times w/ Edwards alone. With such a great line, why couldn't Lynch perform better?
Where are all the 100-yard games?


Lynch has work to do and room to improve, but again he was a rookie.



6. We don't use our TEs, less so than just about every team in the league despite our talking about it every offseason with promises by those pouring the medicine down your throat that we will.


Granted.


7. Jauron's a moron, the personnel office, some of which were just promoted do a poor job, and the organization has a losing corporate culture from top to bottom now.

A moron that garnered support for COY honors toward the end of the year and had the team in the playoff hunt up until the Cleveland game despite all the negative factors he had to deal with. He may not be the best, but I'll take him over any of the other morons the team has had in here since Levy.



That about sums it up. But this nonsense that our OL was great yet every other aspect of our O was so bad that we were DFL in scoring is absurd.

Evans alone is a very good WR and Reed has proven to be a good slot guy during those instances where the QBs play well. Parrish, while a role player, nothing more, also adds "an element." Granted, neither he nor Reed are great, but they're not so damned bad that it should merit our DFL status alongside Evans and Lynch all other things being equal, which you not only suggest, but suggest that they are better, not equal.

No sale!

Nobody suggested the O-line was 'great', just 'improved'...Big difference. Are you going to dispute the fact that they surrendered the least amount of sacks for a season ever, since the the sack stat became official?

Take any offense, with any head coach, coordinator, and front office in the league. Let their vet QB play so poorly that he loses job...Twice. Insert a rookie QB. Insert a rookie RB, have him get injured (along with his back-up) and insert a third-stringer for a game or two. Take the o-line, bring in two new starters, switch a third's position from right tackle to left, insert a new guard and end up with essentially four new guys out of the five positions. See how they do.

Melvin Fowler, Lee Evans, and Robert Royal are the only starters from last year that returned to their same position in '07. 8 out of 11 guys were new, moved, replaced, etc and two of those three are generally accepted as needing an upgrade talent-wise anyway. Take any team under the same circumstances and the results will be similar.

Next year, the line will be mostly intact. I have hopes of the team upgrading at center, but wouldn't be shocked if they didn't. Edwards and Lynch will no longer be rookies, and starting from day 1 with a familiar system for a base and an offensive coordinator that has indicated things need to be done differently and better. We're adding a fullback. #2 WR I am betting is a top two priority for this off-season and definitely will be addressed. TE's a toss-up. Royal and Gaines are serviceable but similar to the center position may not be upgraded.

Bottom line...The o-line IS better than '06, and the team has many positives in place to expect that the offense in general will be much better in '08.

[Mahdi]

OK.

I'll just default to my own analyses then that have turned out to be nearly perfect forecasts of our team for years.

The main problems with the O are numerous.

1. Our OL isn't nearly as good as we thought it was or would be. McNally's now gone, but his understudy w/ hardly any experience and little results now takes over. Good? I suggest not.

2. Fairchild was a moron. Who hired Fairchild? Jauron and Levy. What did they say about him? Same things they're saying about Schonert. I rest my case.

3. Edwards is massively overrated. You'll find that out soon if you don't believe it now. The writing was on the wall for him in college when he only stepped up vs. one crap team while crapping against the others. Ditto here. He stepped up against Miami and has otherwise posted some of the worst rookie performances ever. Losman ain't the answer either but he's better than Edwards FWIW.

4. We don't have the talent at WR, but it's not so bad that we should have ranked DFL in scoring this season. Behind the Niners? Raiders? Bucs? Fins? Jets? I mean do we have the absolute worst skill position talent in the entire league now offensively? If so, then I rest my case there too.

5. Lynch is also overrated. He's good, but from what I've seen he will never be any more than an "all you need" RB, but never a RB that singlehandely carries games. And if you disagree, then what about all those times where we lined up three or four WRs? And it was often. 165 times w/ Edwards alone. With such a great line, why couldn't Lynch perform better?
Where are all the 100-yard games?

6. We don't use our TEs, less so than just about every team in the league despite our talking about it every offseason with promises by those pouring the medicine down your throat that we will.

7. Jauron's a moron, the personnel office, some of which were just promoted do a poor job, and the organization has a losing corporate culture from top to bottom now.

That about sums it up. But this nonsense that our OL was great yet every other aspect of our O was so bad that we were DFL in scoring is absurd.

Evans alone is a very good WR and Reed has proven to be a good slot guy during those instances where the QBs play well. Parrish, while a role player, nothing more, also adds "an element." Granted, neither he nor Reed are great, but they're not so damned bad that it should merit our DFL status alongside Evans and Lynch all other things being equal, which you not only suggest, but suggest that they are better, not equal.

No sale!
Seriously,,,, as long as you cant be objective about things then your opinion for the most part wont be respected. Everyone knows that our OL was vastly improved particularly in pass pro. If you cant even acknowledge that then its clear that you dont know much about football and yer just here to critisize.

What is also clear is that the run blocking was not great. There are several factors that attributed to that IMO.

1) Melvin Fowler is not powerful enough at the point of attack

2) Butler is a good pass blocker and pulls well but struggles to get good leverage on straight ahead runs mostly due to his height. Not easy to gain leverage adavantage when u are 6'7.

3) Brand new OL that didnt work together for too long.

[TacklingDummy]

OK.

I'll just default to my own analyses then that have turned out to be nearly perfect forecasts of our team for years.

:lmao:




3. Edwards is massively overrated. You'll find that out soon if you don't believe it now. The writing was on the wall for him in college when he only stepped up vs. one crap team while crapping against the others. Ditto here. He stepped up against Miami and has otherwise posted some of the worst rookie performances ever. Losman ain't the answer either but he's better than Edwards FWIW.

JP has also only stepped it up against crap teams. His career stats. are built on the Dolphins, Texans, and Bengals. How well has JP done against teams with an above .500 record?

Trent may or may not be the answer but JP clearly isn't the answer.

[TacklingDummy]

Really? Do you keep stats and if you do could you post them for our review? That would be interesting to see, to say the least.






Even in his own thread he started before the season about predicting the Bills stats. he wouldn't post his stat. predictions in.


http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=133595

[SquishDaFish]

Good point TD.

[mayotm]

Hey Wys Guy, I thought you were quiting the team. Any chance you could quit this site also?

[Mitchy moo]

But hey, there are people out there that believe the moon is actually made of cheese no doubt.

It's not!!?? I just sent my best mouse up there, crap.

[Jan Reimers]

Wys. . .Magically turning anything and everything positive about the Bills into something negative. He's a veritable miracle worker.

[Jan Reimers]

The obviously positive response to this thread is: Yes, the Oline is much better. Now, with a big WR, a pass catching TE, better playcalling, and a more experienced duo in Edwards and Lynch, the entire offense should be better.

[EDS]

The obviously positive response to this thread is: Yes, the Oline is much better. Now, with a big WR, a pass catching TE, better playcalling, and a more experienced duo in Edwards and Lynch, the entire offense should be better.

Given the amount of money spent on the 0-line you would hope it improved. I am still baffled by the lines poor run blocking, since they are the biggest unit in the NFL, but at least they improved the pass blocking. The low sack totals are partially attributable to the switch in QBs though.

I hope that having a full season together under their belts results in even better play next season.

[Oaf]

We need to get lightyears better in the run game, especially on 3rd and short situations. With our size, there is no excuse for not dominating.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Agreed Oaf.

Wys can you agree at least that the pass blocking was good last year?

Just a Yes it was would suffice.

[Jan Reimers]

Given the amount of money spent on the 0-line you would hope it improved. I am still baffled by the lines poor run blocking, since they are the biggest unit in the NFL, but at least they improved the pass blocking. The low sack totals are partially attributable to the switch in QBs though.

I hope that having a full season together under their belts results in even better play next season.
I agree on the run blocking. I think an upgrade at center would help, as well as the continued development of Brad Butler.

[X-Era]

It also has alot to do with the QB. Where Trent would get rid of the ball quickly, JP would hold on to it. If JP was the QB all year the Bills would have been sacked more than 26 times.

Whether true about JP or not, the fact is that our o-line is now the best its been in a long time. Its now good enough to have our QB stay upright and our starting RB to put up a 1000+ season despite missing 3 games.

I think its unreasonable or just wishful thinking to ask for much more.

Now its on to playmakers and adding to their talent.

[X-Era]

Oh, the play calling was horrible. But it's not going to get all that much better under Schonert. That much I promise you. Particularly with Jauron's oversight.

But to suggest that Evans, Reed, and Parrish were so bad that the Bills couldn't move the ball well is absurd.

And what about Lynch? Are you suggesting that he's not very good now too? Doesn't he have "hands?"

So in essence, what you're suggesting is that we have a line but no talent at QB, WR, or RB.

Please explain?

Ill answer this one.

We have a o-line, a 1000+ RB AS A ROOKIE! a ROOKIE QB, and budding star WR who didnt get the ball that much due to our rookie QB learning the ropes.

Next year,

we will have an established young QB, a second year RB, hopefully more playmakers into the mix, and a better D.

[Mr. Cynical]

I've been bashing the oline for years and deservedly so. This year however I found myself yelling at the lack of good playcalling - no crossing routes, no open receivers, obvious run calls. But I can't remember saying "the effing oline can't block a doorway"....so for me, that means they got better.

And sorry Wys, JP is not better than Trent. Trent may not be the answer but a rookie season is not enough to judge someone. 4 years however is plenty to judge JP as he showed no improvement in pocket awareness whatsoever.