Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

[YardRat]

http://torontosun.com/Sports/Football/2008/01/25/4794305.html

The CFL is flying high with a new commissioner and strong franchises across the country. But the NFL's Buffalo Bills have announced they will start playing one exhibition game and one regular season game a year in Toronto. They also have an 89-year-old owner. When he dies the team will go on the open market and could end up in Toronto. Sun Media's NFL columnist Rob Longley and Bill Pierce — a season ticket holder for the Toronto Argonauts, the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and the Buffalo Bills — go head-to-head on why the NFL should come to Toronto, and why it must not:

LONGLEY: The question is not should the NFL come to Toronto, but when will it arrive, so deal with it CFL fans, especially the irrational and xenophoic among you. Face it, Toronto already is an NFL market in a CFL town. The number of southern Ontario fans crossing the Peace Bridge for Bills home games suggest it and TV ratings confirm it. And if Toronto CFL fans really cared, they might go to the odd Argos game.

PIERCE: As you know, Rob, I am addicted to football. On any given fall weekend, I'm off to some CFL or NFL stadium (and occasionally Michigan Stadium in Ann Arbor to see the mighty Wolverines) to get my fix. Yes, my wife is a gem. And labelling me as anti-American doesn't work here as I would (if I could) vote for George Dubya for four more years. Hey, he's doing a great job. Really! Regarding your opening barrage of taunts, let me just say this. The vast majority of us "CFL fans" also love the NFL. Both leagues, with their unique rules, have their positives and their negatives. But hey, it's football!

We have the best of both worlds. Canadians have their own long-established professional and collegiate football leagues, along with easy access to the American game just across the border. It's a football paradise for anyone in southern Ontario. If Toronto acquired a permanent NFL franchise, it would most probably mean the end of Canadian professional football which dates back to the late 1800s. The people of B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Quebec would all lose their teams. And our college game probably would eventually switch to the four-down game. Twenty years from now, we can all say remember when ...

Rob, if it meant the demise of the CFL and a distinct part of our nation's culture, would you still want the glory of having a NFL franchise in Toronto?

More... (http://torontosun.com/Sports/Football/2008/01/25/4794305.html)

[gr8slayer]

I'm telling you; us playing a game a year there is not a good thing if we want to keep them.

[yordad]

So..... if the NFL thinks it would be profitable to put a team in Toronto, where are they going to get a team? Are they just going to add 1 expansion team and mess up division alignments? Or, would it be easier to move a team there?

So, what are the lowest market teams? And, of those teams, which one is the closest, with a fan base established already?

Maybe there is something to this. Haven't we all thought "there must be a curse" at one time or another?

Or, maybe Ralph is just trying to claim Toronto fans, making it hard for the NFL to expand there. More fans equals more money.

Or, maybe both. Maybe Ralph wants to do the one game a year there to claim the market for Buffalo, and maybe the league will allow it because they want the Bills to move there; especially if the one game a year shows extreme interest.

Lets just hope the Canadians hate it, or at least don't pay twice as much per ticket. :;

[gr8slayer]

So..... if the NFL thinks it would be profitable to put a team in Toronto, where are they going to get a team? Are they just going to add 1 expansion team and mess up division alignments? Or, would it be easier to move a team there?

So, what are the lowest market teams? And, of those teams, which one is the closest, with a fan base established already?

Maybe there is something to this. Haven't we all thought "there must be a curse" at one time or another?

Or, maybe Ralph is just trying to claim Toronto fans, making it hard for the NFL to expand there. More fans equals more money.

Or, maybe both. Maybe Ralph wants to do the one game a year there to claim the market for Buffalo, and maybe the league will allow it because they want the Bills to move there; especially if the one game a year shows extreme interest.

Lets just hope the Canadians hate it, or at least don't pay twice as much per ticket. :;
It's hard to realize it when you live in Buffalo, and I know I've said this a thousand times before but; nobody outside of Buffalo even knows or cares that Buffalo exists and I promise you that the NFL knows this too. The league would gain much more moving the Bills to Toronto, they'd be screwing us out of our team but it's a business.

[Buffatexas]

It's hard to realize it when you live in Buffalo, and I know I've said this a thousand times before but; nobody outside of Buffalo even knows or cares that Buffalo exists and I promise you that the NFL knows this too. The league would gain much more moving the Bills to Toronto, they'd be screwing us out of our team but it's a business.

I would just love to know how you came to that conclusion that no one outside WNY knows/cares about Buffalo.

[gr8slayer]

I would just love to know how you came to that conclusion that no one outside WNY knows/cares about Buffalo.
You don't get out much do you? Just listen to NFL Radio, NFL Network, ESPN; never any callers, never any mention, etc.....

I've been all over the nation, all over the world, talked football with people who are fans of other teams, players in the league, former players, a few coaches, not one of them could tell you a damn thing about the Buffalo Bills because no one gives two ****s about them.

Get over it dude, that's just how it is when you're the smallest market and one of the worst teams in the league.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I agree with the fellow who said that moving a NFL team to Toronto will kill the CFL. And, that's something that I don't think the Canadians or the NFL necessarily want to have happen.

I think the NFL wants to tap the Canadian market more, but does not want to deal with the headaches that would arise if it moved a franchise to Toronto (or Vancouver) completely. Allowing the Bills to play some of their games there, without having the team based there, however, would permit the NFL to accomplish two things that would benefit the team: 1.) it would allow the NFL to tap the lucrative Southern Ontario market without disturbing the Canadian government or the CFL, while 2.) strengthening the marketing base of one of its financially weakest franchises--both of which would help the league to avoid the headaches that would occur for the league if the Bills were to relocate after R.Wilson dies.

The last thing that the NFL wants is to have the US or Canadian government nosing around in its books!!! If the Bills were to move their base to Toronto and destroy (or even threaten to destroy the CFL, which generates tax dollars for the Canadian government), it is possible--perhaps even likely--that the Canadian government would want to look at the books of the team and the NFL. And, with Sen. Chuck Schumer, head of the Senate Banking Committee, threatening to look at the NFL's books if the Bills were to be moved out of WNY, moving the Bills is something that the NFL might want to try to avoid if at all possible.

The best solution, then, for the Bills, a new owner, and the NFL would be to have the Bills tap into the Southern Ontario market by playing 1-2 games each season in Toronto without relocating the base of the franchise to Canada. This would set a precedent for the Seattle Seahawks to do the same thing in Vancouver at some point in the future should it be necessary to financially stablize that franchise, too.

If certain industries that are being developed in Upstate NY at this point in time continue to develop and emerge in the marketplace, the economy in what has become the Bills' marketing region could see a significant up-turn in the not-too-distant future. Other than LA--which, despite its size, really doesn't seem to be all that interested in being a NFL market--there aren't that many other places that can support a NFL team any better than the Bills are and have been supported in WNY. On top of which, there are other teams, in other markets, that are not doing any better (or perhaps even as well) than the Bills (Jacksonville is having trouble selling out its stadium) and might even be better candidates for relocation than the Bills.

All of which leads me to believe that, if at all possible, the NFL will try to find a buyer for the Bills who will be willing to keep the team based in Buffalo, but regionalized in its marketing to tap into the Southern Ontario market by playing a couple of regular season games a year in Toronto and still maintain its Rochester-area market. With an improved economy in upstate NY and a good enough team to attract its regional following, the frachise would be able to, if not carry its weight, certainly be a viable NFL franchise. Moving the franchise to Toronto, on the other hand, might create more problems for the NFL than the increase in its value would be worth to the league.

[G. Host]

It's hard to realize it when you live in Buffalo, and I know I've said this a thousand times before but; nobody outside of Buffalo even knows or cares that Buffalo exists and I promise you that the NFL knows this too. The league would gain much more moving the Bills to Toronto, they'd be screwing us out of our team but it's a business.

When you say nobody you mean you who lives outside Buffalo right?
Is that how you truly feel?

[Buffatexas]

You don't get out much do you? Just listen to NFL Radio, NFL Network, ESPN; never any callers, never any mention, etc.....

I've been all over the nation, all over the world, talked football with people who are fans of other teams, players in the league, former players, a few coaches, not one of them could tell you a damn thing about the Buffalo Bills because no one gives two ****s about them.

Get over it dude, that's just how it is when you're the smallest market and one of the worst teams in the league.


As a matter of fact I do get out quite a bit thank you. Since you talk to players/coaches, why dont you drop names? players and coaches know about teams in the league, it is their job to know. They probably have former teammates/college buddies that play for the Bills. Personally, i think you are off base, but that is just my opinion, like you have yours.

And how the hell do you expect the networks to air pieces about the Bills (despite the losing record) when it is a constant lovefest with the Pats and has been that way for quite some time. Other teams have wining records and they got hardly any air time as well. I guess no one in the world must give a damn about the other teams in the league as well maybe besides dallas, GB and indy.

Outside of Dallas, NE and Indy, the NFL is basically regional. You have transplanted fans in other teams cities that do their backer thing and they do get noticed. I know this for a fact. I was in florida and used to watch the games at Nickel City and we got interviewed by the St. Pete Times about the passionate fans of the Bills and so on.

I dont know you or how long you lived in WNY (if you did at all) but I will tell you this, this city does get noticed nationwide as well as its teams, more often in a negative light but oh well.

[Michael82]

It's hard to realize it when you live in Buffalo, and I know I've said this a thousand times before but; nobody outside of Buffalo even knows or cares that Buffalo exists and I promise you that the NFL knows this too.

Sorry, but that is total bull****! You act all high and mighty because you live in DallASS and think that Jerry Jones is God, even though he's a POS and a big reason why cities like Buffalo, Jacksonville, Cleveland continue to struggle and will be forced to close shop or relocate if it continues in the direction he is trying to bring it. Big market, rich teams, rich fans, ridiculous prices! The truth is that a lot of people all throughout the country know where Buffalo is, because they used to live in Western NY and have moved to other areas. The media is predominantly focusing on the large market, top teams in the league. There's a reason for that. The money is in those places and they get the most attention in their eyes, but they are wrong. ESPN and other stations don't talk about the other teams, but people do care. It's not because the rest of the country doesn't care about the Bills and doesn't know about Buffalo. It's because that's what they think everyone wants to know about...the New England Patriots, Dallas Cowboys, New York Giants/Jets (when they are good), New York Yankees, and the Boston Red Sox. Now, look at our message board and other Buffalo Bills boards, there are Buffalo Bills fans from all over the ****ing world! They care! But the networks don't realize that. LA, San Diego, Wisconsin, South Dakota, Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Nevada, Louisiana Florida, North Carolina, Georgia, Texas, Arizona, Alaska, Canada, Mexico, Ireland, England, Italy, Kuwait. Bills fans are all over the place! Hell, look at the Bills Backers club. They are all over the ****ing world and continue to grow. I don't care what you say. You know as well as I do that if the Buffalo Bills started getting good again and went to the playoffs again, and became a competitive team, the media would start covering them again and everyone would be happy. Look at when they have started pushing for a playoff spot over the last couple years, or when they have made big moves in FA, the media talks them up. Hell, look at the freaking Monday Night Football game, it was one of the best ones of the year and the highest rated ones. Sure, the Cowboys helped...but don't think for once that people weren't interested in seeing the Buffalo Bills. People care and if you continue to think they don't and you don't care anymore and are counting the days until they move...why the hell are you wasting your time here? :scratch:

[Michael82]

Here's the Bills Backers chapters....

http://www.buffalobills.com/billsbackers/BillsBackersChapterSearch.jsp

[HHURRICANE]

I would just love to know how you came to that conclusion that no one outside WNY knows/cares about Buffalo.

I love Buffalo dearly. My father-in-law is a physician there, I have donated money to help children there but at the end of the day people in Buffalo are so myopic that they don't realize they are already on life support.

People don't care outside of Buffalo because the city is irrelevant. What industry are you exportig to the rest of the country?

You can't lure anybody back either. High taxes, no incentives for business, and bad weather. It's not rocket science.

[HHURRICANE]

I love Buffalo dearly. My father-in-law is a physician there, I have donated money to help children there but at the end of the day people in Buffalo are so myopic that they don't realize they are already on life support.

People don't care outside of Buffalo because the city is irrelevant. What industry are you exportig to the rest of the country?

You can't lure anybody back either. High taxes, no incentives for business, and bad weather. It's not rocket science.

I hate my own post. But it's true. I love the Bills, the city, and the community. Until something changes in the gov't (state and local) it's a downward spiral.

I talked to a coworker who's in Buffalo and asked if the real-state bubble had affected Bufffalo. His response:

"You have to have a boom to have a bust".

[gr8slayer]

DallASS
So juvenile.


think that Jerry Jones is God, even though he's a POS and a big reason why cities like Buffalo, Jacksonville, Cleveland continue to struggle and will be forced to close shop or relocate if it continues in the direction he is trying to bring it.
The problem with those cities is nancies like you who prance around in their high heels screaming; "poor me, oh poor me." You don't like it? Do something about it, elect people to do something about it. In you're feeble little mind Jerry Jones is an ******* because he kicked a mud hole in your ass and is just a better owner than Wilson. Get over it, I pray that our next owner cares as much about his football team as Jerry Jones does.


The media is predominantly focusing on the large market, top teams in the league. There's a reason for that. The money is in those places and they get the most attention in their eyes, but they are wrong. ESPN and other stations don't talk about the other teams, but people do care.
Buffalo = no money for the league and the stations, Buffalo = you're gone.


Now, look at our message board and other Buffalo Bills boards, there are Buffalo Bills fans from all over the ****ing world! They care! But the networks don't realize that. LA, San Diego, Wisconsin, South Dakota, Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Nevada, Louisiana Florida, North Carolina, Georgia, Texas, Arizona, Alaska, Canada, Mexico, Ireland, England, Italy, Kuwait. Bills fans are all over the place! Hell, look at the Bills Backers club. They are all over the ****ing world and continue to grow. I don't care what you say.
Christ Mikey, I didn't think I was going to have to dumb it down for anybody but I will. Nobody outside of Buffalo, Bills fans, and people from Buffalo give two ****s about the Buffalo Bills or the city of Buffalo.


You know as well as I do that if the Buffalo Bills started getting good again and went to the playoffs again, and became a competitive team, the media would start covering them again and everyone would be happy.
You know what the problem with your theory is? The Bills won't compete, they won't make it happen because Wilson either doesn't care anymore or the game has just really passed him up that bad. Like I've said in the past, when the Bills move you can turn and blame one man, Ralph Wilson.


People care and if you continue to think they don't and you don't care anymore and are counting the days until they move...why the hell are you wasting your time here?
Because I'm a Bills fan till the end, I'm just not an unrealistic homer.

Put it this way Micheal, unless Jim Kelly pulls a billion dollars out of his ass (not likely) the Bills are being sold to someone that has made good money for himself and knows how to make money. There is no money to be made in the city of Orchard Park/Buffalo if you're an owner, so he'll likely want to move the team, maybe not right away but eventually he'll catch wind of it. The best damn thing that could happen if you're a Bills fan would be for the team to move to Toronto, it might not be "Buffalo" but it's a hell of a lot closer than San Antonio or L.A.

This conversation with you and Thurm is almost comical. There are A LOT of people in the the DFW area who are from the greater Buffalo area. Some of them are Bills fans, some of them aren't. I had this same conversation with every person who had a Sabres jersey on that I could find and they echoed everything I'm saying. You and Thurm have lived there the better part of your lives and you have no clue, it's funny that the people who got out of there think completely opposite from what you all think.

I've been to Buffalo and enjoyed myself. It's nice to get away from the big city every now and then and go to a little place where the people are friendly and will talk Bills football with you all day. I saw some things that I was really impressed with, and I saw some things that make it obvious why Buffalo is in the condition that it's in. We enjoyed it so much that we're going back to this year, but it's not the heaven that you and Thurm seem to think it is.

And Micheal, every team has chapters all over the nation and world for their respected team. Compare the size of the Bills chapter to that of the other NFL teams and I think you will be shocked.

[Wys Guy]

.We enjoyed it so much that we're going back to this year, but it's not the heaven that you and Thurm seem to think it is.

:roflmao:

HURRICANE's spot on too!

[Wys Guy]

I would (if I could) vote for George Dubya for four more years. Hey, he's doing a great job. Really!

This guy Pierce lost all credibility right from the get-go!

[Wys Guy]

Sorry, but that is total bull****! You act all high and mighty because you live in DallASS and think that Jerry Jones is God, even though he's a POS and a big reason why cities like Buffalo, Jacksonville, Cleveland continue to struggle and will be forced to close shop or relocate if it continues in the direction he is trying to bring it. Big market, rich teams, rich fans, ridiculous prices! The truth is that a lot of people all throughout the country know where Buffalo is, because they used to live in Western NY and have moved to other areas. The media is predominantly focusing on the large market, top teams in the league. There's a reason for that. The money is in those places and they get the most attention in their eyes, but they are wrong. ESPN and other stations don't talk about the other teams, but people do care. It's not because the rest of the country doesn't care about the Bills and doesn't know about Buffalo. It's because that's what they think everyone wants to know about...the New England Patriots, Dallas Cowboys, New York Giants/Jets (when they are good), New York Yankees, and the Boston Red Sox. Now, look at our message board and other Buffalo Bills boards, there are Buffalo Bills fans from all over the ****ing world! They care! But the networks don't realize that. LA, San Diego, Wisconsin, South Dakota, Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Nevada, Louisiana Florida, North Carolina, Georgia, Texas, Arizona, Alaska, Canada, Mexico, Ireland, England, Italy, Kuwait. Bills fans are all over the place! Hell, look at the Bills Backers club. They are all over the ****ing world and continue to grow. I don't care what you say. You know as well as I do that if the Buffalo Bills started getting good again and went to the playoffs again, and became a competitive team, the media would start covering them again and everyone would be happy. Look at when they have started pushing for a playoff spot over the last couple years, or when they have made big moves in FA, the media talks them up. Hell, look at the freaking Monday Night Football game, it was one of the best ones of the year and the highest rated ones. Sure, the Cowboys helped...but don't think for once that people weren't interested in seeing the Buffalo Bills. People care and if you continue to think they don't and you don't care anymore and are counting the days until they move...why the hell are you wasting your time here? :scratch:

Paragraphs are your friend Mikey! ;)

[gr8slayer]

:roflmao:

HURRICANE's spot on too!
I'm serious though, we really did like it. It's like a small Dallas suburb, just a lot older looking, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes I get bored of all the technology around me, it feels go to go back a couple of decades.

[Wys Guy]

I agree with the fellow who said that moving a NFL team to Toronto will kill the CFL. And, that's something that I don't think the Canadians or the NFL necessarily want to have happen.

I think the NFL wants to tap the Canadian market more, but does not want to deal with the headaches that would arise if it moved a franchise to Toronto (or Vancouver) completely. Allowing the Bills to play some of their games there, without having the team based there, however, would permit the NFL to accomplish two things that would benefit the team: 1.) it would allow the NFL to tap the lucrative Southern Ontario market without disturbing the Canadian government or the CFL, while 2.) strengthening the marketing base of one of its financially weakest franchises--both of which would help the league to avoid the headaches that would occur for the league if the Bills were to relocate after R.Wilson dies.

The last thing that the NFL wants is to have the US or Canadian government nosing around in its books!!! If the Bills were to move their base to Toronto and destroy (or even threaten to destroy the CFL, which generates tax dollars for the Canadian government), it is possible--perhaps even likely--that the Canadian government would want to look at the books of the team and the NFL. And, with Sen. Chuck Schumer, head of the Senate Banking Committee, threatening to look at the NFL's books if the Bills were to be moved out of WNY, moving the Bills is something that the NFL might want to try to avoid if at all possible.

The best solution, then, for the Bills, a new owner, and the NFL would be to have the Bills tap into the Southern Ontario market by playing 1-2 games each season in Toronto without relocating the base of the franchise to Canada. This would set a precedent for the Seattle Seahawks to do the same thing in Vancouver at some point in the future should it be necessary to financially stablize that franchise, too.

If certain industries that are being developed in Upstate NY at this point in time continue to develop and emerge in the marketplace, the economy in what has become the Bills' marketing region could see a significant up-turn in the not-too-distant future. Other than LA--which, despite its size, really doesn't seem to be all that interested in being a NFL market--there aren't that many other places that can support a NFL team any better than the Bills are and have been supported in WNY. On top of which, there are other teams, in other markets, that are not doing any better (or perhaps even as well) than the Bills (Jacksonville is having trouble selling out its stadium) and might even be better candidates for relocation than the Bills.

All of which leads me to believe that, if at all possible, the NFL will try to find a buyer for the Bills who will be willing to keep the team based in Buffalo, but regionalized in its marketing to tap into the Southern Ontario market by playing a couple of regular season games a year in Toronto and still maintain its Rochester-area market. With an improved economy in upstate NY and a good enough team to attract its regional following, the frachise would be able to, if not carry its weight, certainly be a viable NFL franchise. Moving the franchise to Toronto, on the other hand, might create more problems for the NFL than the increase in its value would be worth to the league.

Interesting post Lifetime!

Perhaps the NFL sees a transition for the CFL to a "farm league" of sorts, which in at least some minor way it already is, more on the back end than the front. Several high profile players over the years have gone there.

IMO moving the team to anywhere in Ontario would drastically reduce the Season Ticket fan base from NY. Getting across the border is no longer easy and with the requirement for passports and all the superficial feel good "security" measures that have been implemented, making the trip IMO wouldn't be worthwhile, at least not for people that don't already live in Bufflao or NF. I think that many underestimate the support that the team gets from Rochester and points east/south. As well, even many Buffalonians would throw in the towel, particularly given this product.

Your notions of sellouts has far less meaning that you would like to think it does. Jax has a broader TV market. The Bills are at or just about at near bottom in NFL TV market now. Contrary to your suggestion that the economy may get better, the primary marketing demographic is leaving Buffalo in spades due to NYS having become a socialist utopia of sorts.

The economy is not going to improve before Wilson passes or even soon after that. That's the NYS voters' fault for permeating NYS with liberal politics. It also won't be changed overnight.

The issue Lifetime is TV market. Toronto's is far larger than Buffalo's. Anything that Buffalo gains from WNY and Rochester would also easily be outweighed by cities/regions within an hour or so from Toronto.

No owner can sustain a team in the region if Wilson's been telling us the truth about the economic status of the team, which I'm not so sure of. But even if he's been lying, the financial aspect of the team's viability in Buffalo is a fraction of what it would be in Toronto or LA. Any new owners, which won't be Thurman and Kelly, will go where the money/new stadium is.

There's less than a 1% chance that the team stays in Buffalo when it gets sold, which will be when Wilson dies. In fact, if Buffalo didn't have a team today, I doubt they'd even be in major consideration for one contrasted with other markets.

The notion that the Canadian market won't support an NFL team is ridiculous.

[Wys Guy]

You have to remember that a lot of the existing fanbase goes to games b/c it's convenient the way the Bills have played and given how bad they've been.

Add in a two-hour, each way, w/ border nonsense and all, greater travel time, and I guarantee that there's no way fans pay for games that are that inconvenient to get to. The Rochester and Southern Tier market would all but drop off entirely.

[Michael82]

So juvenile.


The problem with those cities is nancies like you who prance around in their high heels screaming; "poor me, oh poor me." You don't like it? Do something about it, elect people to do something about it. In you're feeble little mind Jerry Jones is an ******* because he kicked a mud hole in your ass and is just a better owner than Wilson. Get over it, I pray that our next owner cares as much about his football team as Jerry Jones does.


Buffalo = no money for the league and the stations, Buffalo = you're gone.


Christ Mikey, I didn't think I was going to have to dumb it down for anybody but I will. Nobody outside of Buffalo, Bills fans, and people from Buffalo give two ****s about the Buffalo Bills or the city of Buffalo.


You know what the problem with your theory is? The Bills won't compete, they won't make it happen because Wilson either doesn't care anymore or the game has just really passed him up that bad. Like I've said in the past, when the Bills move you can turn and blame one man, Ralph Wilson.


Because I'm a Bills fan till the end, I'm just not an unrealistic homer.

Put it this way Micheal, unless Jim Kelly pulls a billion dollars out of his ass (not likely) the Bills are being sold to someone that has made good money for himself and knows how to make money. There is no money to be made in the city of Orchard Park/Buffalo if you're an owner, so he'll likely want to move the team, maybe not right away but eventually he'll catch wind of it. The best damn thing that could happen if you're a Bills fan would be for the team to move to Toronto, it might not be "Buffalo" but it's a hell of a lot closer than San Antonio or L.A.

This conversation with you and Thurm is almost comical. There are A LOT of people in the the DFW area who are from the greater Buffalo area. Some of them are Bills fans, some of them aren't. I had this same conversation with every person who had a Sabres jersey on that I could find and they echoed everything I'm saying. You and Thurm have lived there the better part of your lives and you have no clue, it's funny that the people who got out of there think completely opposite from what you all think.

I've been to Buffalo and enjoyed myself. It's nice to get away from the big city every now and then and go to a little place where the people are friendly and will talk Bills football with you all day. I saw some things that I was really impressed with, and I saw some things that make it obvious why Buffalo is in the condition that it's in. We enjoyed it so much that we're going back to this year, but it's not the heaven that you and Thurm seem to think it is.

And Micheal, every team has chapters all over the nation and world for their respected team. Compare the size of the Bills chapter to that of the other NFL teams and I think you will be shocked.

A couple things, first of all I was just messing around with the city. I have no problem with Dallas, some of their fans on the otherhand yes. But the city, not really. I have no problem with you either, it was nice meeting you at the Bills game. You are a nice guy and you take some pretty sweet photos. :up:

Next, the name is Michael, not Micheal, I have many people spell it the 2nd way and I have no idea why. The name has always been spelled Michael and everyone I know with the same name is Michael. I don't know where people get Micheal from. :shakeno:

Also, I don't live in Buffalo. I live in Rochester. I am not like Thurm, I'm not praising Buffalo and Western NY for everything and acting like we have it best. I understand that the economy is horrible and there aren't many jobs here and people continue to leave. I also believe that if Western NY loses the Buffalo Bills, what's left of the economy will crumble as even more people will flee the area and move down south. Not me though. I like the weather here and the hate the heat.

As far as Jerry Jones, I believe that he has done a good job supporting his team and helping the Dallas Cowboys be one of the best teams in the league for many years. But I also believe that he needs to stay out of some ****. Seeing him on the sidelines just irritates the hell out of me. I understand that it is your team, but why do you have to be there and stick your nose into everything? I also believe that he is so pro Large markets and believes so much in the almighty dollar that if it was up to him, he would cut the league in half, raise the salary cap to $200 million and make all the teams charge $500 per game for regular seats. Him and Bob Kraft will lead to the demise of the little teams, the ones that helped the NFL get to where it's at from their wide support. I don't know why, but I forsee a NFL/AFL division and I could see Cincy, Buffalo, Cleveland and the smaller market teams doing pretty good in that.

And honestly, you are biased. Buffalo does NOT = no money for the league and the stations. If Buffalo has a winning product, which I blame Ralph Wilson for, then they would have no problem making money and selling lots of merchandise and being on TV all the time. The problem is, right now they are not good. They don't have the stars that you can market to the rest of the country. Once they do, watch out.

And for your quote....

Nobody outside of Buffalo, Bills fans, and people from Buffalo give two ****s about the Buffalo Bills or the city of Buffalo.
I will counter it. Does anyone really care about the Raiders in Dallas? How about the San Diego Chargers or the Miami Dolphins? Your little statement works for many of the teams. Especially when you say that nobody, outside of Buffalo, Bills fans and people from Buffalo care about the Buffalo Bills. Of course not. Do you really think that anyone who is not a Dallas Cowboys fan cares about the Cowboys? Come on! :shakeno:

I also believe that right now, even if Ralph hasn't done anything to save the team here. I believe that someone will come with a lot of money and see what we have, a loyal fan base that sells out the stadium, even when they suck sometimes. A fanbase that is spread all over and will buy the team and keep it in Buffalo. But the key is, you have to get that money from Toronto to sell out the boxes and you can raise the price on them too. They already marketed in Rochester and it was a huge success. Now they are tapping the Canadian market. It's a smart move and I thank Russ Brandon for it and believe that it will be the reason the Buffalo Bills stay in Western NY.

I also have talked to many people in other states when I have gone for away games, San Diego, Baltimore, Cleveland, Miami, and my sister is in North Carolina. I know that people act like you and your friends do. "I'm glad to get out of that hellhole, it's a dump and it really is turning into a ghost town and they will lose the Bills. I hate the weather. I prefer the 4 seasons. " But I also have heard many other people say the opposite. "I regret leaving the city, it really is a nice place. If I could find a good job, I would come back. Sure, I miss it. But there's no jobs right now. Once they rebuild and join the bigger cities with the tech jobs, I will come back and be happy. I can't stand the heat down here, I am thinking about moving back. You can get houses for dirt cheap."

Oh and if the team does move to Toronto, I will follow them casually, but will not get season tickets and won't spend all the money that I currently spend on the team. It won't be the same. They would be able to be called the Buffalo Bills anymore and it just wouldn't feel like the home team. I would feel like a Browns fan and probably protest it immediately and join in any groups to fight for a new team. Even though I know we probably won't get another one.

[Michael82]

Also, my prediction. Los Angeles will never get an NFL team, unless its one of the 3 California teams. I think the LA market is better off left alone and they are mainly to be used as a threat to other teams, so the owners can get new stadiums and good leases from the cities. I believe that an LA team would not do well with attendence, unless it was consistantly good, which is hard to do in today's NFL.

[Buffatexas]

I love Buffalo dearly. My father-in-law is a physician there, I have donated money to help children there but at the end of the day people in Buffalo are so myopic that they don't realize they are already on life support.

People don't care outside of Buffalo because the city is irrelevant. What industry are you exportig to the rest of the country?

You can't lure anybody back either. High taxes, no incentives for business, and bad weather. It's not rocket science.

OK, I will give you the taxes, but that is the whole state, not just Buffalo and if my wish came true and NYC became a seperate state, the taxes in WNY would be a hell of a lot lower.

I wouldnt say the city is irrelovant. As far as industry goes, well, ask any Harley owner what tires come stock on their hog? You guess it..Dunlop and where are they made, right here in WNY

Roswell Park - Arguably the leading cancer research institure in the country

Dont forget to mention that Forbes rated Buffalo #1, I repeat #1, in cheapest places to live.

And wasn't Amherst #3 in America's safest cities list? And I believe that was listed as a suburb of Buffalo.

I also think that the Goo Goo Dolls helped put us on the map in recent years as well.

Miami - hurricanes, LA and San Fran - Earthquakes, I would take a Blizzard over that crap any day of the week and BTW, the Buffalo area got in the top 5 for the best summer weather of 2007.

Labatt USA relocated its HQ to Buffalo

Many others to talk about as well but I think you need to take a hard look and realize that sometimes you gotta burn it down to get it to grow again.

In short, in about 10-20 years, this area is expected to boom. UB is, if I am not misstaken, the leading university dealing in nanotechnology, which will be the wave of the future. This town is going from smokestacks to test tubes.

Keep your love for the city man, because as I found out after 14 years in Florida, it will still love you when you come back.

[Wys Guy]

I will counter it. Does anyone really care about the Raiders in Dallas? How about the San Diego Chargers or the Miami Dolphins? Your little statement works for many of the teams. Especially when you say that nobody, outside of Buffalo, Bills fans and people from Buffalo care about the Buffalo Bills. Of course not. Do you really think that anyone who is not a Dallas Cowboys fan cares about the Cowboys? Come on! :shakeno:

Yeah, well unlike the Bills, all of their fans aren't leaving the city in which thier teams dwell due to economic unviability and a tax structure that says, rather screams, "Get the hell out of the state!"

The Bills may arguably have more fans outside the region than in it. Too bad those fans don't contribute to the TV market in Buffalo. If they did, then the team would not have the problems that they have in spite of stinking more than a sewage treatment facility in terms of their performance.

I.e., performance has little to do with it. Otherwise Ralph would care more.

[raphael120]

You have to remember that a lot of the existing fanbase goes to games b/c it's convenient the way the Bills have played and given how bad they've been.

Add in a two-hour, each way, w/ border nonsense and all, greater travel time, and I guarantee that there's no way fans pay for games that are that inconvenient to get to. The Rochester and Southern Tier market would all but drop off entirely.

I had tickets to go to the Redkins/Bills game and I didn't even want to go to that with it only being 30 minutes away, let alone 2-3 hours, border security, etc....

Unless the team gets exciting, it's pointless. It's like driving 3 hours to get kicked in the nuts. At least if it only takes 30 minutes to get kicked in the nuts, I may hurt but at least I have 2 and a half hours of my life back.

[HHURRICANE]

Many others to talk about as well but I think you need to take a hard look and realize that sometimes you gotta burn it down to get it to grow again.

In short, in about 10-20 years, this area is expected to boom. UB is, if I am not misstaken, the leading university dealing in nanotechnology, which will be the wave of the future. This town is going from smokestacks to test tubes.


Grew up in Amherst, went to UB, and when I left in '91 I told everyone I'd be back. When I started my company in '98 I could have stayed in CT, moved back to Buffalo, or move down to Atlanta.

If I had to pick one reason that I have been blessed in my business, besides god, it's that I picked ATL.

Almost 20 years later I'm still waiting for all these wonderful things to happen in Buffalo. It gets old after a while.

And I agree that if Buffalo loses the Bills you can pretty much say goodbye to whats left of the city.

[Buffatexas]

Grew up in Amherst, went to UB, and when I left in '91 I told everyone I'd be back. When I started my company in '98 I could have stayed in CT, moved back to Buffalo, or move down to Atlanta.

If I had to pick one reason that I have been blessed in my business, besides god, it's that I picked ATL.

Almost 20 years later I'm still waiting for all these wonderful things to happen in Buffalo. It gets old after a while.

And I agree that if Buffalo loses the Bills you can pretty much say goodbye to whats left of the city.

kind of reminds me of that old joke.

"ladies and gentlemen, we are now preparing for arrival in Buffalo, please set your tray table to the upright and locked positon and set your watch back 20 years"

I hear you about getting old, but honestly I left in 1992, came back in 2006 and while not a lot has changed for the better, ie South Buffalo (looks like a friggin war zone) I really believe that with all that is coming in and the "plans" that are "in progress" business will pick up around here.

[gr8slayer]

As far as Jerry Jones, I believe that he has done a good job supporting his team and helping the Dallas Cowboys be one of the best teams in the league for many years. But I also believe that he needs to stay out of some ****. Seeing him on the sidelines just irritates the hell out of me. I understand that it is your team, but why do you have to be there and stick your nose into everything? I also believe that he is so pro Large markets and believes so much in the almighty dollar that if it was up to him, he would cut the league in half, raise the salary cap to $200 million and make all the teams charge $500 per game for regular seats. Him and Bob Kraft will lead to the demise of the little teams, the ones that helped the NFL get to where it's at from their wide support. I don't know why, but I forsee a NFL/AFL division and I could see Cincy, Buffalo, Cleveland and the smaller market teams doing pretty good in that.
You know what? That's capitalism 101 my friend. The little guy is going to get his neck stepped on sooner or later and Buffalo is the smallest guy in the NFL. I don't like it, you don't like it, no BILLS FAN likes it...... that's just how it is. Go read up on John D. Rockefeller. It's the law of the jungle; "only the strong survive." You can hate the guy all you want but he cares more about his football team than any team in the NFL and he treats his players like Mark Cuban does (freaking kings.) And him being on the sidelines..... who cares? He's the GM and President of that team, not once have I ever seen him interfere with a coach doing his job, he just watches and motivates the players. Again, I PRAY that we get an owner who cares that freaking much about his football team.


Also, I don't live in Buffalo. I live in Rochester. I am not like Thurm, I'm not praising Buffalo and Western NY for everything and acting like we have it best. I understand that the economy is horrible and there aren't many jobs here and people continue to leave. I also believe that if Western NY loses the Buffalo Bills, what's left of the economy will crumble as even more people will flee the area and move down south. Not me though. I like the weather here and the hate the heat.You live in the greater Buffalo area. When you hear someone say "Dallas" 9 time out of ten they aren't talking about Dallas Proper, they are talking about the DFW Metroplex.


I also believe that right now, even if Ralph hasn't done anything to save the team here. I believe that someone will come with a lot of money and see what we have, a loyal fan base that sells out the stadium, even when they suck sometimes. A fanbase that is spread all over and will buy the team and keep it in Buffalo. But the key is, you have to get that money from Toronto to sell out the boxes and you can raise the price on them too. They already marketed in Rochester and it was a huge success. Now they are tapping the Canadian market. It's a smart move and I thank Russ Brandon for it and believe that it will be the reason the Buffalo Bills stay in Western NY.That's great that you feel that way. I just don't know why anyone would want to buy the Bills, there's no money to be made in it. Even when we are winning we'll never be able to compete with any of the larger markets.


I will counter it. Does anyone really care about the Raiders in Dallas? How about the San Diego Chargers or the Miami Dolphins? Your little statement works for many of the teams. Especially when you say that nobody, outside of Buffalo, Bills fans and people from Buffalo care about the Buffalo Bills. Of course not. Do you really think that anyone who is not a Dallas Cowboys fan cares about the Cowboys? Come on! :shakeno:
It's funny you mention this because yes, there are a lot of people around here that care about those teams, and the Arizona Cardinals. We have a HUGE Mexican American fan base here, they tend to root for teams like the Dolphins and Raiders. Actually if I'm not mistake we have the largest Raiders Backers Club anywhere outside of California. Me being from Texas and liking the Bills from day one is very, very rare here in Texas.

[YardRat]

The Bills will stay in Buffalo, and Jacksonville will be re-located to LA.

So it is written, so shall it be done.

[gr8slayer]

The Bills will stay in Buffalo, and Jacksonville will be re-located to LA.

So it is written, so shall it be done.
I hope so.

[Ultra Chimp 1]

I live in Toronto, I would love nothing more than to cut the two hours time it takes to get to a Bills game and reduce it to about a ten minute subway ride.

LOL at Buffalonians and a big pat on the back to me.

Not only is it hilarious to see all these WNY pinheads lose their team, but it's freaking awesome to have that very same NFL franchise literally come into my front yard.

LOL

[gr8slayer]

I live in Toronto, I would love nothing more than to cut the two hours time it takes to get to a Bills game and reduce it to about a ten minute subway ride.

LOL at Buffalonians and a big pat on the back to me.

Not only is it hilarious to see all these WNY pinheads lose their team, but it's freaking awesome to have that very same NFL franchise literally come into my front yard.

LOL
The King of the trolls strikes again.

[YardRat]

If the queen had balls, she'd be a king.

[CLo_in_Roch]

As a matter of fact I do get out quite a bit thank you. Since you talk to players/coaches, why dont you drop names? players and coaches know about teams in the league, it is their job to know. They probably have former teammates/college buddies that play for the Bills. Personally, i think you are off base, but that is just my opinion, like you have yours.

And how the hell do you expect the networks to air pieces about the Bills (despite the losing record) when it is a constant lovefest with the Pats and has been that way for quite some time. Other teams have wining records and they got hardly any air time as well. I guess no one in the world must give a damn about the other teams in the league as well maybe besides dallas, GB and indy.

Outside of Dallas, NE and Indy, the NFL is basically regional. You have transplanted fans in other teams cities that do their backer thing and they do get noticed. I know this for a fact. I was in florida and used to watch the games at Nickel City and we got interviewed by the St. Pete Times about the passionate fans of the Bills and so on.

I dont know you or how long you lived in WNY (if you did at all) but I will tell you this, this city does get noticed nationwide as well as its teams, more often in a negative light but oh well.

It's not a question of "noterity", but a questions of revnue.... the owners throw a percentage of business into a pot for sharing... and Buffalo continually shows up short...it's a question of "economies of scale"...we're on the low end and are getting lower. The other owners and the administration of the NFL will continue to monitor our role and come to the realization that there is no pay back for a team in Buffalo.

[gr8slayer]

It's not a question of "noterity", but a questions of revnue.... the owners throw a percentage of business into a pot for sharing... and Buffalo continually shows up short...it's a question of "economies of scale"...we're on the low end and are getting lower. The other owners and the administration of the NFL will continue to monitor our role and come to the realization that there is no pay back for a team in Buffalo.
There's just not a big enough fan base and we didn't help ourselves out any a couple of years ago when we failed to sell out a few games.

- Some people are fans of teams because of a super star player, we don't have that.

- Some people are fans because they like the city, it's a nice city but nothing special.

- Some people are fans because the team is historically a great team, we don't have that.

- Some people are fans because they move to a town and decide to start cheering for the home team, Buffalo may be on the right path but there aren't close to enough people migrating to Buffalo and once Buffalo does finally turn the corner it will be too late.

[Bmax]

Jacksonville is a growing market ...They have that over buffalo....I have been there the area is growing .. But broader TV market ? .. I don't think so.. Jacksonville is bigger because of how they are set up .. Their a regional city and the county is huge.. I don't know the exact numbers but if the Buffalo area was regional we would be one of the 30 largest area's in the country....

Minnesota is also having problems getting a new stadium passed .. so include them in the moving to Toronto mix....


Bmax

[Bmax]

Most of you guys are too young to remember .. Exactly what happened before Jim Kelly arrived....When the Bills were really in trouble...Only 20,000 fans going to games.... Compare the Bills of today to those teams .. it's not even close.. Sure the area is in trouble...Most of NY state is....But is it better today then it was 5 years ago ....Yes.... 10 years- Yes.


Alot of people who move discover what i did.. It's warmer...most places that Buffalonians move to are warmer. There may be more things to do ..If you live in a bigger city...But is it better ? That's up to that person to decide...

I guess the question is what do you value ? I live in the city.. The area i live in has seen better days to put it mildly... I plan on moving when i can.. Due to a famliy issue i can't right now .. But i make the best of my situation by looking at the positives. Even in the darkest situation....

When i move again it won't be because Buffalo is dying or a deprssed area...it will be because i 'm tired of shoveling snow....and it better for my health to live in a warmer area... I will still love Buffalo and admire what we have that's better than alot of other cities...Real neighborhoods...Real People......Great parks....Good colleges and universites ..Good schools...


You think Buffalo area schools are bad .. Move To NC or SC their schools are ranked below ours.....I know i lived there...

I have a friend who lives in Tampa and they can't wait to move .. Now they don't want to move to Buffalo.. The weather...is too cold for their health issues.. But remember while we flock to the south and west,those areas have their own issues.. Lack of water...etc.. Increasing crime .. The grass is always greener on the .. well you know the rest.

I guess what it comes down to is get in where you fit in .. If you don't fit then leave .. Happy trails....But dont kick the dog on your way out .. Just enjoy where you have landed and be happy for those that don't mind cold weather,good wings,good friends and a place they love to call home.


Bmax...

[Buffatexas]

Most of you guys are too young to remember .. Exactly what happened before Jim Kelly arrived....When the Bills were really in trouble...Only 20,000 fans going to games.... Compare the Bills of today to those teams .. it's not even close.. Sure the area is in trouble...Most of NY state is....But is it better today then it was 5 years ago ....Yes.... 10 years- Yes.


Alot of people who move discover what i did.. It's warmer...most places that Buffalonians move to are warmer. There may be more things to do ..If you live in a bigger city...But is it better ? That's up to that person to decide...

I guess the question is what do you value ? I live in the city.. The area i live in has seen better days to put it mildly... I plan on moving when i can.. Due to a famliy issue i can't right now .. But i make the best of my situation by looking at the positives. Even in the darkest situation....

When i move again it won't be because Buffalo is dying or a deprssed area...it will be because i 'm tired of shoveling snow....and it better for my health to live in a warmer area... I will still love Buffalo and admire what we have that's better than alot of other cities...Real neighborhoods...Real People......Great parks....Good colleges and universites ..Good schools...


You think Buffalo area schools are bad .. Move To NC or SC their schools are ranked below ours.....I know i lived there...

I have a friend who lives in Tampa and they can't wait to move .. Now they don't want to move to Buffalo.. The weather...is too cold for their health issues.. But remember while we flock to the south and west,those areas have their own issues.. Lack of water...etc.. Increasing crime .. The grass is always greener on the .. well you know the rest.

I guess what it comes down to is get in where you fit in .. If you don't fit then leave .. Happy trails....But dont kick the dog on your way out .. Just enjoy where you have landed and be happy for those that don't mind cold weather,good wings,good friends and a place they love to call home.


Bmax...

Oh yeah, I remember those days quite well.

Excellent post!!!

[G. Host]

Jacksonville is a growing market ...They have that over buffalo....I have been there the area is growing .. But broader TV market ? .. I don't think so.. Jacksonville is bigger because of how they are set up .. Their a regional city and the county is huge.. I don't know the exact numbers but if the Buffalo area was regional we would be one of the 30 largest area's in the country....

Minnesota is also having problems getting a new stadium passed .. so include them in the moving to Toronto mix....


Bmax


Here are some facts regarding Buffalo and Jacksonville cities and areas.
Buffalo (city), New York <br><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Population, 2003 estimate</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">285,018</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Population, percent change, April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2003</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">-2.6%</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Land area, 2000 (square miles)</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">41</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Persons per square mile, 2000</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">7,205.8</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Counties</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">Erie County</td></tr></tbody></table><br>Erie County, New York<br><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Population, 2006 estimate</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">921,390</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Population, percent change, April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2006</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">-3.0%</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Land area, 2000 (square miles)</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">1,044.21</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Persons per square mile, 2000</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">910.2</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Metropolitan or Micropolitan Statistical Area</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">Buffalo-NiagaraFalls, NY Metro Area</td></tr></tbody></table><br>Jacksonville (city), Florida <br><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Population, 2003 estimate</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">773,781</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Population, percent change, April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2003</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">5.2%</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Land area, 2000 (square miles)</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">758</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Persons per square mile, 2000</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">970.9</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Counties</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">Duval County</td></tr></tbody></table><br>Duval County, Florida <br><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Population, 2006 estimate</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">837,964</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Population, percent change, April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2006</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">7.6%</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Land area, 2000 (square miles)</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">773.67</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Persons per square mile, 2000</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">1,006.3</td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top">Metropolitan or Micropolitan Statistical Area</td><td align="right" valign="bottom">Jacksonville, FL Metro Area</td></tr></tbody></table>