Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

[YardRat]

http://torontosun.com/Sports/Football/2008/01/25/4794305.html

The CFL is flying high with a new commissioner and strong franchises across the country. But the NFL's Buffalo Bills have announced they will start playing one exhibition game and one regular season game a year in Toronto. They also have an 89-year-old owner. When he dies the team will go on the open market and could end up in Toronto. Sun Media's NFL columnist Rob Longley and Bill Pierce — a season ticket holder for the Toronto Argonauts, the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and the Buffalo Bills — go head-to-head on why the NFL should come to Toronto, and why it must not:

LONGLEY: The question is not should the NFL come to Toronto, but when will it arrive, so deal with it CFL fans, especially the irrational and xenophoic among you. Face it, Toronto already is an NFL market in a CFL town. The number of southern Ontario fans crossing the Peace Bridge for Bills home games suggest it and TV ratings confirm it. And if Toronto CFL fans really cared, they might go to the odd Argos game.

PIERCE: As you know, Rob, I am addicted to football. On any given fall weekend, I'm off to some CFL or NFL stadium (and occasionally Michigan Stadium in Ann Arbor to see the mighty Wolverines) to get my fix. Yes, my wife is a gem. And labelling me as anti-American doesn't work here as I would (if I could) vote for George Dubya for four more years. Hey, he's doing a great job. Really! Regarding your opening barrage of taunts, let me just say this. The vast majority of us "CFL fans" also love the NFL. Both leagues, with their unique rules, have their positives and their negatives. But hey, it's football!

We have the best of both worlds. Canadians have their own long-established professional and collegiate football leagues, along with easy access to the American game just across the border. It's a football paradise for anyone in southern Ontario. If Toronto acquired a permanent NFL franchise, it would most probably mean the end of Canadian professional football which dates back to the late 1800s. The people of B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Quebec would all lose their teams. And our college game probably would eventually switch to the four-down game. Twenty years from now, we can all say remember when ...

Rob, if it meant the demise of the CFL and a distinct part of our nation's culture, would you still want the glory of having a NFL franchise in Toronto?

More...

[gr8slayer]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

I'm telling you; us playing a game a year there is not a good thing if we want to keep them.

[yordad]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

So..... if the NFL thinks it would be profitable to put a team in Toronto, where are they going to get a team? Are they just going to add 1 expansion team and mess up division alignments? Or, would it be easier to move a team there?

So, what are the lowest market teams? And, of those teams, which one is the closest, with a fan base established already?

Maybe there is something to this. Haven't we all thought "there must be a curse" at one time or another?

Or, maybe Ralph is just trying to claim Toronto fans, making it hard for the NFL to expand there. More fans equals more money.

Or, maybe both. Maybe Ralph wants to do the one game a year there to claim the market for Buffalo, and maybe the league will allow it because they want the Bills to move there; especially if the one game a year shows extreme interest.

Lets just hope the Canadians hate it, or at least don't pay twice as much per ticket.

[gr8slayer]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

So..... if the NFL thinks it would be profitable to put a team in Toronto, where are they going to get a team? Are they just going to add 1 expansion team and mess up division alignments? Or, would it be easier to move a team there?

So, what are the lowest market teams? And, of those teams, which one is the closest, with a fan base established already?

Maybe there is something to this. Haven't we all thought "there must be a curse" at one time or another?

Or, maybe Ralph is just trying to claim Toronto fans, making it hard for the NFL to expand there. More fans equals more money.

Or, maybe both. Maybe Ralph wants to do the one game a year there to claim the market for Buffalo, and maybe the league will allow it because they want the Bills to move there; especially if the one game a year shows extreme interest.

Lets just hope the Canadians hate it, or at least don't pay twice as much per ticket.

It's hard to realize it when you live in Buffalo, and I know I've said this a thousand times before but; nobody outside of Buffalo even knows or cares that Buffalo exists and I promise you that the NFL knows this too. The league would gain much more moving the Bills to Toronto, they'd be screwing us out of our team but it's a business.

[Buffatexas]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

It's hard to realize it when you live in Buffalo, and I know I've said this a thousand times before but; nobody outside of Buffalo even knows or cares that Buffalo exists and I promise you that the NFL knows this too. The league would gain much more moving the Bills to Toronto, they'd be screwing us out of our team but it's a business.

I would just love to know how you came to that conclusion that no one outside WNY knows/cares about Buffalo.

[gr8slayer]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

I would just love to know how you came to that conclusion that no one outside WNY knows/cares about Buffalo.

You don't get out much do you? Just listen to NFL Radio, NFL Network, ESPN; never any callers, never any mention, etc.....

I've been all over the nation, all over the world, talked football with people who are fans of other teams, players in the league, former players, a few coaches, not one of them could tell you a damn thing about the Buffalo Bills because no one gives two ****s about them.

Get over it dude, that's just how it is when you're the smallest market and one of the worst teams in the league.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

I agree with the fellow who said that moving a NFL team to Toronto will kill the CFL. And, that's something that I don't think the Canadians or the NFL necessarily want to have happen.

I think the NFL wants to tap the Canadian market more, but does not want to deal with the headaches that would arise if it moved a franchise to Toronto (or Vancouver) completely. Allowing the Bills to play some of their games there, without having the team based there, however, would permit the NFL to accomplish two things that would benefit the team: 1.) it would allow the NFL to tap the lucrative Southern Ontario market without disturbing the Canadian government or the CFL, while 2.) strengthening the marketing base of one of its financially weakest franchises--both of which would help the league to avoid the headaches that would occur for the league if the Bills were to relocate after R.Wilson dies.

The last thing that the NFL wants is to have the US or Canadian government nosing around in its books!!! If the Bills were to move their base to Toronto and destroy (or even threaten to destroy the CFL, which generates tax dollars for the Canadian government), it is possible--perhaps even likely--that the Canadian government would want to look at the books of the team and the NFL. And, with Sen. Chuck Schumer, head of the Senate Banking Committee, threatening to look at the NFL's books if the Bills were to be moved out of WNY, moving the Bills is something that the NFL might want to try to avoid if at all possible.

The best solution, then, for the Bills, a new owner, and the NFL would be to have the Bills tap into the Southern Ontario market by playing 1-2 games each season in Toronto without relocating the base of the franchise to Canada. This would set a precedent for the Seattle Seahawks to do the same thing in Vancouver at some point in the future should it be necessary to financially stablize that franchise, too.

If certain industries that are being developed in Upstate NY at this point in time continue to develop and emerge in the marketplace, the economy in what has become the Bills' marketing region could see a significant up-turn in the not-too-distant future. Other than LA--which, despite its size, really doesn't seem to be all that interested in being a NFL market--there aren't that many other places that can support a NFL team any better than the Bills are and have been supported in WNY. On top of which, there are other teams, in other markets, that are not doing any better (or perhaps even as well) than the Bills (Jacksonville is having trouble selling out its stadium) and might even be better candidates for relocation than the Bills.

All of which leads me to believe that, if at all possible, the NFL will try to find a buyer for the Bills who will be willing to keep the team based in Buffalo, but regionalized in its marketing to tap into the Southern Ontario market by playing a couple of regular season games a year in Toronto and still maintain its Rochester-area market. With an improved economy in upstate NY and a good enough team to attract its regional following, the frachise would be able to, if not carry its weight, certainly be a viable NFL franchise. Moving the franchise to Toronto, on the other hand, might create more problems for the NFL than the increase in its value would be worth to the league.

[G. Host]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

It's hard to realize it when you live in Buffalo, and I know I've said this a thousand times before but; nobody outside of Buffalo even knows or cares that Buffalo exists and I promise you that the NFL knows this too. The league would gain much more moving the Bills to Toronto, they'd be screwing us out of our team but it's a business.

When you say nobody you mean you who lives outside Buffalo right?
Is that how you truly feel?

[Buffatexas]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

You don't get out much do you? Just listen to NFL Radio, NFL Network, ESPN; never any callers, never any mention, etc.....

I've been all over the nation, all over the world, talked football with people who are fans of other teams, players in the league, former players, a few coaches, not one of them could tell you a damn thing about the Buffalo Bills because no one gives two ****s about them.

Get over it dude, that's just how it is when you're the smallest market and one of the worst teams in the league.

As a matter of fact I do get out quite a bit thank you. Since you talk to players/coaches, why dont you drop names? players and coaches know about teams in the league, it is their job to know. They probably have former teammates/college buddies that play for the Bills. Personally, i think you are off base, but that is just my opinion, like you have yours.

And how the hell do you expect the networks to air pieces about the Bills (despite the losing record) when it is a constant lovefest with the Pats and has been that way for quite some time. Other teams have wining records and they got hardly any air time as well. I guess no one in the world must give a damn about the other teams in the league as well maybe besides dallas, GB and indy.

Outside of Dallas, NE and Indy, the NFL is basically regional. You have transplanted fans in other teams cities that do their backer thing and they do get noticed. I know this for a fact. I was in florida and used to watch the games at Nickel City and we got interviewed by the St. Pete Times about the passionate fans of the Bills and so on.

I dont know you or how long you lived in WNY (if you did at all) but I will tell you this, this city does get noticed nationwide as well as its teams, more often in a negative light but oh well.

[Michael82]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

It's hard to realize it when you live in Buffalo, and I know I've said this a thousand times before but; nobody outside of Buffalo even knows or cares that Buffalo exists and I promise you that the NFL knows this too.

Sorry, but that is total bull****! You act all high and mighty because you live in DallASS and think that Jerry Jones is God, even though he's a POS and a big reason why cities like Buffalo, Jacksonville, Cleveland continue to struggle and will be forced to close shop or relocate if it continues in the direction he is trying to bring it. Big market, rich teams, rich fans, ridiculous prices! The truth is that a lot of people all throughout the country know where Buffalo is, because they used to live in Western NY and have moved to other areas. The media is predominantly focusing on the large market, top teams in the league. There's a reason for that. The money is in those places and they get the most attention in their eyes, but they are wrong. ESPN and other stations don't talk about the other teams, but people do care. It's not because the rest of the country doesn't care about the Bills and doesn't know about Buffalo. It's because that's what they think everyone wants to know about...the New England Patriots, Dallas Cowboys, New York Giants/Jets (when they are good), New York Yankees, and the Boston Red Sox. Now, look at our message board and other Buffalo Bills boards, there are Buffalo Bills fans from all over the ****ing world! They care! But the networks don't realize that. LA, San Diego, Wisconsin, South Dakota, Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Nevada, Louisiana Florida, North Carolina, Georgia, Texas, Arizona, Alaska, Canada, Mexico, Ireland, England, Italy, Kuwait. Bills fans are all over the place! Hell, look at the Bills Backers club. They are all over the ****ing world and continue to grow. I don't care what you say. You know as well as I do that if the Buffalo Bills started getting good again and went to the playoffs again, and became a competitive team, the media would start covering them again and everyone would be happy. Look at when they have started pushing for a playoff spot over the last couple years, or when they have made big moves in FA, the media talks them up. Hell, look at the freaking Monday Night Football game, it was one of the best ones of the year and the highest rated ones. Sure, the Cowboys helped...but don't think for once that people weren't interested in seeing the Buffalo Bills. People care and if you continue to think they don't and you don't care anymore and are counting the days until they move...why the hell are you wasting your time here?

[Michael82]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

Here's the Bills Backers chapters....

http://www.buffalobills.com/billsbackers/BillsBackersChapterSearch.jsp

[HHURRICANE]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

I would just love to know how you came to that conclusion that no one outside WNY knows/cares about Buffalo.

I love Buffalo dearly. My father-in-law is a physician there, I have donated money to help children there but at the end of the day people in Buffalo are so myopic that they don't realize they are already on life support.

People don't care outside of Buffalo because the city is irrelevant. What industry are you exportig to the rest of the country?

You can't lure anybody back either. High taxes, no incentives for business, and bad weather. It's not rocket science.

[HHURRICANE]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

I love Buffalo dearly. My father-in-law is a physician there, I have donated money to help children there but at the end of the day people in Buffalo are so myopic that they don't realize they are already on life support.

People don't care outside of Buffalo because the city is irrelevant. What industry are you exportig to the rest of the country?

You can't lure anybody back either. High taxes, no incentives for business, and bad weather. It's not rocket science.

I hate my own post. But it's true. I love the Bills, the city, and the community. Until something changes in the gov't (state and local) it's a downward spiral.

I talked to a coworker who's in Buffalo and asked if the real-state bubble had affected Bufffalo. His response:

"You have to have a boom to have a bust".

[gr8slayer]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

DallASS

So juvenile.

think that Jerry Jones is God, even though he's a POS and a big reason why cities like Buffalo, Jacksonville, Cleveland continue to struggle and will be forced to close shop or relocate if it continues in the direction he is trying to bring it.

The problem with those cities is nancies like you who prance around in their high heels screaming; "poor me, oh poor me." You don't like it? Do something about it, elect people to do something about it. In you're feeble little mind Jerry Jones is an ******* because he kicked a mud hole in your ass and is just a better owner than Wilson. Get over it, I pray that our next owner cares as much about his football team as Jerry Jones does.

The media is predominantly focusing on the large market, top teams in the league. There's a reason for that. The money is in those places and they get the most attention in their eyes, but they are wrong. ESPN and other stations don't talk about the other teams, but people do care.

Buffalo = no money for the league and the stations, Buffalo = you're gone.

Now, look at our message board and other Buffalo Bills boards, there are Buffalo Bills fans from all over the ****ing world! They care! But the networks don't realize that. LA, San Diego, Wisconsin, South Dakota, Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Nevada, Louisiana Florida, North Carolina, Georgia, Texas, Arizona, Alaska, Canada, Mexico, Ireland, England, Italy, Kuwait. Bills fans are all over the place! Hell, look at the Bills Backers club. They are all over the ****ing world and continue to grow. I don't care what you say.

Christ Mikey, I didn't think I was going to have to dumb it down for anybody but I will. Nobody outside of Buffalo, Bills fans, and people from Buffalo give two ****s about the Buffalo Bills or the city of Buffalo.

You know as well as I do that if the Buffalo Bills started getting good again and went to the playoffs again, and became a competitive team, the media would start covering them again and everyone would be happy.

You know what the problem with your theory is? The Bills won't compete, they won't make it happen because Wilson either doesn't care anymore or the game has just really passed him up that bad. Like I've said in the past, when the Bills move you can turn and blame one man, Ralph Wilson.

People care and if you continue to think they don't and you don't care anymore and are counting the days until they move...why the hell are you wasting your time here?

Because I'm a Bills fan till the end, I'm just not an unrealistic homer.

Put it this way Micheal, unless Jim Kelly pulls a billion dollars out of his ass (not likely) the Bills are being sold to someone that has made good money for himself and knows how to make money. There is no money to be made in the city of Orchard Park/Buffalo if you're an owner, so he'll likely want to move the team, maybe not right away but eventually he'll catch wind of it. The best damn thing that could happen if you're a Bills fan would be for the team to move to Toronto, it might not be "Buffalo" but it's a hell of a lot closer than San Antonio or L.A.

This conversation with you and Thurm is almost comical. There are A LOT of people in the the DFW area who are from the greater Buffalo area. Some of them are Bills fans, some of them aren't. I had this same conversation with every person who had a Sabres jersey on that I could find and they echoed everything I'm saying. You and Thurm have lived there the better part of your lives and you have no clue, it's funny that the people who got out of there think completely opposite from what you all think.

I've been to Buffalo and enjoyed myself. It's nice to get away from the big city every now and then and go to a little place where the people are friendly and will talk Bills football with you all day. I saw some things that I was really impressed with, and I saw some things that make it obvious why Buffalo is in the condition that it's in. We enjoyed it so much that we're going back to this year, but it's not the heaven that you and Thurm seem to think it is.

And Micheal, every team has chapters all over the nation and world for their respected team. Compare the size of the Bills chapter to that of the other NFL teams and I think you will be shocked.

[Wys Guy]

Re: Point, Counterpoint: Should the NFL come to Toronto?

.We enjoyed it so much that we're going back to this year, but it's not the heaven that you and Thurm seem to think it is.

HURRICANE's spot on too!