Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

[X-Era]

Heres what I mean:

Ralph has gone through several bigger spending GM's before landing on Levy, and now Brandon.

Many of us here are clamoring for the high priced studs that come out or are traded for. But has Ralph seen his last days of going after the studs?

In the Butler years many complained we overpaid for guys like Irvin, Panos, Holecek, anda big trade for Rob Johnson.

In the Donahoe years it was Lawyer Milloy, Troy Vincent, Takeo Spikes, and a monsterous trade for Drew Bledsoe... Do you guys remember the parade for the guy and crap at the Ralph to announce him?

All of it failed.

Now, we paid big money for Dockery and Walker but niether was a household name by any means.

So, doesnt the history here point that Ralph has sticker shock and wont get guys like Terrell Suggs or Lance Briggs?

It would seem to be the case.

Yet, the Pats through caution to the wind an traded for Moss, they also signed the big namer in Thomas.

[Nighthawk]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

Good points and I think you may be onto something. It seems that when Ralph pisses himself and makes the wrong decision once, he immediately believes that if he goes about it the same way the next time that it will automatically be wrong.

[Wys Guy]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

Heres what I mean:

Ralph has gone through several bigger spending GM's before landing on Levy, and now Brandon.

Many of us here are clamoring for the high priced studs that come out or are traded for. But has Ralph seen his last days of going after the studs?

In the Butler years many complained we overpaid for guys like Irvin, Panos, Holecek, anda big trade for Rob Johnson.

In the Donahoe years it was Lawyer Milloy, Troy Vincent, Takeo Spikes, and a monsterous trade for Drew Bledsoe... Do you guys remember the parade for the guy and crap at the Ralph to announce him?

All of it failed.

Now, we paid big money for Dockery and Walker but niether was a household name by any means.

So, doesnt the history here point that Ralph has sticker shock and wont get guys like Terrell Suggs or Lance Briggs?

It would seem to be the case.

Yet, the Pats through caution to the wind an traded for Moss, they also signed the big namer in Thomas.

Not that it matters anymore, but I never cared how much he spent, but whom he spent it on. More money doesn't necessarily net you more. The Pats are a prime example of that. Good GMs and personnel guys find those diamonds in the rough, and not purely by accident either.

What you need to look for, and where this and some other organizations are defunct, is in finding coaches and GMs with sound philosophies and who know how to implement them.

Believe it or not, there are ways to assess this, but when you run your organization always hiring "familiarity," friends, and former colleagues as the priority, and players via media credentials like we did throughout the Donadope era, then clearly that's not putting those things as a priority. Then those people do dumb things b/c they weren't hired for their philosophies, or they were, but those hiring them had flawed philosophies themselves.

The fact that this organization has historically spent more than it's gotten in terms of equitable value during the full fledged free agency era is more reflective of the core issue of the people responsible for getting those players not knowing WTH they're doing.

[OpIv37]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

The problem isn't paying players. It's paying the WRONG players. Some guys are worth the money- the trick is finding those guys and giving them enough money that they don't leave. Paying guys who don't perform is a losing formula, as is trying to get by with second and third rate players (see Buffalo's OL for the entire Donahoe tenure for examples of both)

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

I don't think that it is a sticker shock problem, but more of a disconnect between a generation of fans, raised in an era of continuous success and nurtured on Madden and Fantasy Football, looking for immediate gratification without recognizing how that success came about, let alone understanding the inner workings of a football team and how talent is acquired and the owner and front office of a franchise that has limited resources (in comparison to the majority of the competition) but is still trying to satisfy its fan-base and be as successful as possible.

Every offseason fans and wanna-be GMs have a list of high-profile free agents that they think that the owner of the team should sign, regardless of the cost or what the player wants or other teams are willing/able to offer that the Bills cannot. And, they get very upset if the owner doesn't sign all or any of those players--calling him and/or the management of the team stupid and/or cheap.

It doesn't matter if the guy may be an alcoholic and serial rapist (how many Bills fans wanted the team to sign Jeremy Stevens?!). It doesn't matter if the guy only wants to play for the team based in the city where he grew up (E.Steingbach and L.Bentley, etc.). It doesn't matter that the guy is willing to take less money to play in a city with a warm climate (K.Diehlmann) or for a specific team that he grew up rooting for (R.Pickett), etc. It doesn't matter if the guy is selfish (K.Johnson/T.Owens), lazy (M.Wright), or will only do what the coaches want if it is what he thinks the team should do (E.Moulds, Adams), etc. It doesn't matter how a player practices or acts in the lockerroom, or whether he neglects his assignments on the field to try to make plays that will increase his stats, even if it hurts the team overall, etc. It doesn't matter that very often there is a reason why a team will allow a player to become a free agent rather than re-sign him.

No. The only thing that a lot of fans see is that their team has a weak position and there is a guy out there that they hear a lot about on TV or see has big Fantasy Football stats who plays that position and is a free agent. And, they can't understand why the management of the team can't/won't sign him to fill that weak spot.

They want the team to have an Pro Bowler at every position and win NOW!!!

They don't want to hear that the successful team that they grew up with was run by a guy who was a nobody that the owner gave an opportunity who subsequently went on to become one of the greatest GMs ever--but wasn't that when he got hired by the Bills. They don't want to know that the coach he hired was a crony who had a losing record as a HC in the NFL, but went on to become a HOF HC. They don't want to know that the QB of that team played 4 years of minor league football before he joined the team as a fully developed QB. They don't want to know that that team was built around players that here drafted by the team and that some of them were very high draft picks that resulted from years of losing. They don't want to know that it took the young players on that team time to develop into a winner. They don't want to know that good role players were vital to the success of that team (and every other successful team).

They don't want to know that the teams that are winning around the league were built primarily with draft picks--or that most of them started out only adding one or two better known free agents a year until they became successful. They don't want to know that sometimes the team has to be so bad that it gets to first or second in a good draft year to turn things around or that there is an element of luck involved in a great player at the most important position in the game--that a team like the Colts were lucky enough to be able to choose between P.Manning and R.Leaf; that J.Montana would find a way to become the winnest QB of his era; that nobody, not even the Pats, knew that T.Brady, when he was selected in the 6th round, would develop so fast and so much that people would talk of him being the "greatest QB of all time". They don't want to know or remember that they--and/or a lot of other fans and folks in the media--laughed and said, "Who?" when teams took a chance and drafted unknown players who went on to become All-Pros.

They don't want to know anything. They just want the team to do what they think the team should do and win NOW.

Well, if the last eight years have proven anything it' that that is easier said than done.

You can complain all you want about Ralph Wilson firing Bill Polian, but the no-name guys that he promoted from within were not bad. With the Bills not picking very high in the draft--and therefore not getting to pick from the cream of each year's draft crop--because they were winning, they managed to keep the Bills competitive enough that they got back into the playoffs and fell victim to the "Music City Travesty". And, J.Butler and AJ Smith didn't do a bad job when they got to San Diego. The problem that they had was that they over-valued and overpaid some of those players that they drafted and got the team into "salary cap hell"--something that they learned from and have managed to avoid in San Diego.

But, fans don't care about the fact that they were probably screaming that the STs coach should be fired after that game in Nashville. They don't want to know that the HC quit rather than fire the STs coach. They don't want to know that J.Butler left to go to San Diego because he wanted to go to San Diego--they don't even want to consider the possibility that the cancer that killed him may have already been causing him health problems and that he may have felt that he would feel better in that warm, ocean climate (a distict possibility that was never explored).

They don't care. It's all the owner's fault. He's cheap and stupid.

The fans don't want to remember that Tom Donahoe was one of the most well-known and respected names in the NFL when the owner hired him. They don't want to remember that Donahoe's hiring was widely hailed by the "experts" in the media. They don't want to recognize that the Donahoe hiring marked a big departure from the owner's past pattern of promoting from within and hiring no names with talent. They don't even want to consider how much Wilson had to give to Donahoe, not just in terms of money, but in terms of power, to come in and manage the team.

They don't want to see what that cost. They just assume that it couldn't have been much because the owner is cheap and stupid.

The fans remember the arrogance of Donahoe and his first HC, G.Williams, but they don't want to consider that Williams was the "hottest" young coach at the time--considered a top candidate for other HC jobs--and that it probably cost the owner considerably more to hire Williams than it would have cost to hire a lesser known candidate. They don't even want to think about the possibility that the owner, in his 80s, might have wanted to step back and take a less active role in running the team at the time for personal reasons--to them, his personal life doesn't matter (theirs does, his doesn't), the only thing that matters is the success of the team and doing things their way!

The fans don't want to remember how much they argued with each other over who should be the QB of the team: Flutie or R.Johnson--but, to hear them now, Flutie was a selfish lockerroom cancer and RJ was a California jerk out of place in Buffalo. They don't want to remember their own vitriol. They don't want to remember the empty seats as the young players that Donahoe brought in struggled. They don't want to remember that they stayed away in droves. They don't want to consider what the owner thought about that or how much money he was not making as a result.

They don't want to remember how excited they were when Donahoe started signing big-name free agents, let alone consider the fact that the owner had to approve and pay for those players--he's cheap. They don't want to remember the parade and cheering for Bledsoe. They don't want to remember how they actively courted T.Spikes from the stands and begged him to sign with the Bills when he became a FA. they don't want to remember that they loved "stealing" L.Milloy away from the Pats, etc., etc. But, they don't want to remember how those high-priced free agents that they wanted the Bills to sign and that Donahoe did sign turned around and quit in 2005.

Yeah, Bills fans remember how bad things got and how bad some of those Donahoe era teams were, but they want to blame the owner for doing exactly what they wanted him to do and said he was too cheap to do. They don'twant to consider the possibility that, every time they make up their list of high-profile free agents that they want the owner to sign, they are just asking him to repeat that same mistake. They don't even think about the fact that the most successful teams of the era have not been built that way or that the two teams that have gone out and done pretty much exactly what they want the Bills to do (Denver and Washington) have gotten nothing but first round playoff exits for their money and trouble.

So, now Ralph Wilson, with the help of Marv Levy, has reverted to doing things the way that his most successful Bills teams were produced and the way that the most successful teams of this era have been built and, again, the fans think that he is cheap and stupid.

The fans don't want to know, let alone take the time to try to perceive, what goes on or may be going on behind the scenes in the front office. They don't know or care about how a team is run or a successful team built. They don't understand how a player who is only average at best can be admired, looked up to and a leader in the lockerroom and a high-profile star can be a jerk that nobody on the team wants to be around when they don't have to be. They don't understand how young players develop and learn how to win or how a player might be asked to sacrifice his own stats to make a system that the team is running work. They don't understand how a player that they have heard a lot about and seen look great on TV might be able to do the things that will make him a good fit in what the team is trying to do as a group. They don't have the slightest clue about what takes for a player to become a franchise QB in the NFL, they only know what they see on TV from the QBs who are franchise QBs. They don't appreciate how hard it is to win in the NFL without consistent play from the QB position or recognize that more than half the teams in the NFL are desperately looking for a QB that can give them that and can't find one.

No. They want the team to do what they want the team to do. And, they want the team to win now. That's all that they really care about.

If the Bills don't win or make the playoffs, they suck...worse than just about every other team in the league. If Wilson doesn't hire a high-profile GM, HC, coordinator or coach that they want, he's cheap and stupid. If the people running the team don't sign the free agents that they want the team to sign, it's because they and Wilson are stupid and Wilson is cheap.

Nobody's ever run a team or knows how to run a team, but they're all experts who know more than the owner, front office staff and coaches--everybody's a wanna-be GM.

Well, I'll at least give Wys (Mark) some credit for making a good call on the Donahoe hiring. The problem that I have with Wys is that he's not going to be happy with anything that Ralph Wilson or the Bills do until Wilson hires him to be President and GM of the Bills with unlimited power to run the team as he sees fit...and, even then he might not be happy.

Having played some football, having played a sport for money, having had the opportunity to observe just a small portion of what goes into running and preparing a NFL team while working briefly for the Bills (in just a menial capacity), I know that, as a fan, I DON'T know enough about what goes into every decision that the team makes--just about personnel--to jump to definitive conclusions about every move that the team makes.

And, I'll say this: I don't envy Ralph Wilson and the position that he is in with regard to Bills fans because, no matter what he does at this point, he's damned if he does and he's damned if he doesn't. So, if he's going to get criticized by Bills fans and the WNY media no matter what he does, he might as well do what he has decided to do: promote the people that he knows and that he knows he can work with and give them a chance, with him overseeing them, to see if they can make the team successful--financiall and on the field--by doing what teams like Indianapolis and New England did to become successful: build from within via the draft, add one or two free agents at key positions, and try to get lucky with your lower round draft picks, UDFAs and lesser known, cheaper veteran players--trying as you do to find and develop a franchise QB who can give the team the kind of consistent play at the QB position that any team needs to be a true contender--because there are no "quick fixes" in the NFL until your team gets good enough to attract quality players that it otherwise wouldn't attract and you have a stable, winning attitude and leadership in the lockerroom.

If you want to call that having sticker shock, you can, but I would hardly call it that.

PS: How many fans here will even have the patience to read all of this? Let alone have the patience to try to understand what might go into some of the decisions that the Bills front office may make.

[Night Train]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

LTBF !

[Jan Reimers]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

LTBF !

I'll second that! Hall of Fame post.

[Buffatexas]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

that post by LTBF should have been a front pager!!!


Right on the money!

[hydro]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

I seriously don't think that the Bills situation could have been summed up any better.

[bigbub2352]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

Great Post LTBF, it brought a tear to my eye

[raphael120]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

I want to see most of our need positions filled in the draft. Thing is, we've been hit and miss. Out of the past 2 drafts the only impact player we KNOW of thus far is Lynch. 1 player. Poz might be good, but who really knows...Whitner is average, not an impact player though...neither is McCargo. Trent Edwards, big question mark there. Youboty is a bum, Ko Simpson is a questionmark. And for those of you who say "well it's too early!" i see PLENTY of rookies and second year players making big impacts on their respective teams. See Green Bay, the Giants, Arizona, Tampa Bay. I could go on and on.

This year it is CRITICAL we select the right people in the draft because we can't afford to screw up in the draft when we have no money.

[gr8slayer]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

I just think that the game itself has passed game up. He's no longer football smart.

[X-Era]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

Absolutely fantastic post by LTBF!!!
I shall respond in depth to give it its proper due.

[helmetguy]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

What the hell was that I just read? PERSPECTIVE?

That was BEAUTIFUL! (and grammatically correct, too!)

I'm gettin' all misty here!

LTBF, put a title on that manifesto and have Shelby post it on the front page. Hell, she won't even have to add a disclaimer!

[X-Era]

Re: Do we have a sticker shock problem in Buff?

To LTBF:

I was there through all of that and your take is likely mostly factual. Your absolutely right that fans will not be happy with anything other than winning Superbowl.

A few points though:

Polian was a stud plain and simple and never should have left.

According to Ralph, Butler was asked repeatedly if he wanted to keep his job and he would not answer. Was it due to his health? maybe. But maybe he realized the cap hell he had put us in and wanted the hell out before the fan hit the wall. Contracts to guys like Irvin, and Holecek seemed to point in THAT direction. Let alone the Flutie, RJ contracts where we had two starting QB's being paid starting QB money. Thats flat out ridiculous. And Im not sure things didnt continue under his new job in SD with signings like Wileys where he basically didnt do too much of anything after he signed that great contract. I digress, the guy had many good small school gems and was a very very likeable guy. We will never know why he wanted to leave. AJ Smith went on to become the GM and has done a fantastic job, but he also canned a playoff caliper HC who was one of the most highly thought of HC's ever because he couldnt manage to co-exist. Not good for a general MANAGER. That term should be synonymous with being a people person...

And on to Donahoe speaking of "people" people. Care to remember his press conf when he introduced Gregg Williams? Remember the list of other candidates that he claimed were "not as good of candidates" as Gregg? I seem to remember guys like John Fox, Marvin Lewis, Jim Fassel, several of which went on to go to SB's. As far as signings go, twice in row with Drew and Lawyer he went with NE's cast offs that then turned out to be flops. If we were competing with NE and they werent good enough for them, why are they good enough for us?

But your are 100% correct, I, like many others bought into the current regimes thinking along the way and trusted them. I cheered for Drew and for Lawyer and thought they were fantastic picks at the time. I STILL trust in the front office and in the team. The reason I made this post is for the same reason that many, if not all fans make these posts.

Because we stood by and watched our team, from small town Buffalo, with diamonds from the rough like Andre Reed and Steve Tasker go to SB after SB and lose...

I will always be proud of that team, and what they did. But to me, the job wasnt finished. All teams want to win the SB. But this team more than any other deserves to. As a final chapter to something that happened long ago. Maybe its the same as a World Series win for the Cubs. Maybe its the same as having the first (modern day) perfect season for the Pats. Maybe its the same as a US win in Olympic hockey. To me its the same. Its this team that broke so many records and accomplished so much, finishing it off with the ultimate redemption of a SB win.

It can be had. I truly believe it. But maybe it doesnt come in the way we got it there the first time. Can we truly believe that we can do it the same way now? The game is so much different, salary cap, free agency, even the draft is much more technically advanced than before and much more of a known science.

Ultimately, the question is how do we get back there? My question as a title to this posts asks the very question that you yourself seem to answer in the way that Ralph has; thats to try to repeat what we did back then. I hope that works, I honestly do. As good as it feels for any team to go to the Superbowl, it felt that much better for us because we did it the unlikely and hard way. Id love nothing more than to do it again. But is that a realistic or even logical approach?

We may never repeat what we did back then as far as success goes. I hope we do. But you cant be frustrated with TRUE fans who are ravenous for that SB redemption like me, its understandable and IMO shoulkd almost be expected.

The thrust of it was to only question whether Ralphs thoughts (as if I know what they are) are reasonable to get us back. I dont have the answers, none of us do, but our minds that are hungry for the answers will continue to ask these types of questions.

I am now and always will be a Bills fan. And I say this with complete honesty. I would rather be a Bills fan and never win the SB then be a Pats fan and have people claim they are the best of all time. I really mean that. To me its not about a SB win as much as MY team winning it. Its more about MY team, representing our neck of the woods, what we are all about, and our way of life. Thats something the Pats can never do for me. And why I will always root for THIS team.

Great post, great perspective! GO BILLS!