Losman stays?

[Mr. Miyagi]

One of SportingNews' 10 bold predictions:


3. Bills will keep Losman

Bills quarterback J.P. Losman was supposed to be the next Jim Kelly. That hasn't happened.

Now, with '07 third-round pick Trent Edwards is firmly entrenched as the starter, Losman wants out of Buffalo. But Losman is under contract for one more year, and Bills officials realize the importance of having two men who can play the position in case one is injured.

Losman can pout all he wants. After the '08 season, he'll be free to leave. Until then, he is not going anywhere.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=348983

I hope not, for JP's sake. He needs to get a new shot in Atlanta or something.

[The King]

Agreed, this is not best for JP or Trent.

[Michael82]

No chance. I don't see how they can keep him.

[gr8slayer]

I don't like it at all.

[mybills]

I don't have a problem with him staying. We'll need a back up, there's nobody else out there, and I don't want to waste a draft pick. If Edwards is that great, JP won't be playing anyway. If he gets hurt, JP can help us.

[shelby]

i think JP deserves a shot somewhere else.

[Mitchy moo]

I don't have a problem with him staying. We'll need a back up, there's nobody else out there, and I don't want to waste a draft pick. If Edwards is that great, JP won't be playing anyway. If he gets hurt, JP can help us.

JP knows the system and can be a great back up if needed. I think that a winning team will make it that much better all around for everybody.

[Luisito23]

I hope not, for JP's sake.



Who cares what he wants, or his sake...It's what's good for the team, wheter they feel it's best to keep him, or trade him that's for them to decide not JP...He can pout all he wants but the fact is he's still under contract so he betta STFU and do what he's told....

[shelby]

Why hate on the guy?

[YardRat]

Bills officials realize the importance of having two men who can play the position in case one is injured.


No comment...

[Luisito23]

Why hate on the guy?



I don't hate him at all Shelby, I just think that if you're a professional making millions you have an obligation to your employer without acting like a :baby: and being a cancer.

[Mitchy moo]

I don't hate him at all Shelby, I just think that if you're a professional making millions you have an obligation to your employer without acting like a :baby: and being a cancer.

I personally thought all in all that JP took his benching like a champ. You really heard nothing from him but that he is upset and would like a chance to start somewhere else. I really don't find anything unusual or unreasonable about that at all except that he is under contract. Hopefully we can package him with a draft pick to move up in the draft and grab a gamer, fingers crossed.

[BADTHINGSMAN]

Trade JP and get Nall Ball back..

[Mr. Miyagi]

I don't hate him at all Shelby, I just think that if you're a professional making millions you have an obligation to your employer without acting like a :baby: and being a cancer.
What are you talking about? JP has never been a cancer. :rolleyes:

[gr8slayer]

What are you talking about? JP has never been a cancer. :rolleyes:
Yeah, that's just blind hatred.

[DraftBoy]

For his sake being a young player I think he needs a fresh start and anybody who watched last year knows that none of the fans, the coaching staff, or the players are comfortable with him under center, so I dont see any logic in keeping him.

[gr8slayer]

For his sake being a young player I think he needs a fresh start and anybody who watched last year knows that none of the fans, the coaching staff, or the players are comfortable with him under center, so I dont see any logic in keeping him.
I'm not comfortable with Edwards under Center either :ill:

[Don't Panic]

At this point, I'd say 3rd rounder or keep him.

[kernowboy]

I wouldn't want to do anything in THIS draft ... we already have 10picks, if we trade down we'll get 11 and I often wonder with so many picks that the front office get lazy thinking that it doesn't matter if one or two are busts.

We need a draft like 2001 or 2006 when we had decent value at the time all the way into the 7th round, especially 2006, where all bar Youboty has contributed.

We can always trade JP after the draft especially as players get injured for a R3 pick in 2009.

I am also not convinced by Trent but he deserves a full season - I'll be keeping my eye on Todd Boeckmann of the Buckeyes, who I can easily see going on Day1 of 2009.

[cocamide]

Hopefully we can get some sort of draft pick for him. If he does stay, I don't think he'll be a cancer or anything. That would be the stupidest thing he could do considering he'll be looking for a new contract next year. Anyways, he's handled everything very professionally, and I don't think he'd be a problem if he did stay. My only fear is that Edwards gets hurt, and then Losman has a few great games, and then we're back to arguing about who our QB should be.

[TacklingDummy]

Keep JP at all costs.

Trent won't last the season.

[venis2k1]

A solid Vet Backup is gonna be the BIGGEST need on this team if losman leaves.

[gr8slayer]

Keep JP at all costs.

Trent won't last the season.
You forgot the /sarcasm

[Typ0]

I think both this team and JP would benefit from his being here next season so I think it's the right thing to do.

[Devin]

Not only for his sake but for ours. Whatever value he has, he has right now.

[yordad]

OK, here goes: I think they should have a training camp/preseason competition. How does handing the team to a totally unproven, second year, third round pick, with out any competition sound? Horrible. Since when does one have a walk on starting job under those conditions? And, when was the last time TE started 16 straight games?

And, I realize this would cause a QB controversy. And, I really don't care. I am fairly confident that JP waxes TE in a fair competition. And, I am fairly confident that JP will go on to be the better QB. If some hurt feeling is what it takes to keep the better QB in Buffalo, I'm all for it. And, if by some miracle it was a fair completion and JP lost, at least I wouldn't second guess their move, and question their motives for the next twenty years. And, at least we would have a pretty darn good backup.

And, in case anyone is wondering, I know TE almost played as good as Losman last year. But, I believe that was a water downed offense. With water downed talent, water downed coaching, water downed game planning and water downed play calling. Heck water Vodka down, and even beer can taste stronger. Take that water away, and you better respect the Vodka.

Turk talks a good game. Hopefully he can suck up some of the water, and let the alcohol..... I mean talent, take over. And hopefully he isn't a puppet and man enough to make the decision. Or at least man enough to try. And, hopefully he isn't as finicky and rash as most fans.

[tampabay25690]

No chance. I don't see how they can keep him.

WHAT do u think we could get for him????? HONESTLY

[yordad]

Now, I have to add, if they have no intentions of giving JP a fair shot, trade him to the highest bidder, and sign a veteran free agent. There are like a dozen of them that would like one more year. Holcomb available?

[gr8slayer]

WHAT do u think we could get for him????? HONESTLY
6th round pick, maybe a conditional.

[TacklingDummy]

And, in case anyone is wondering, I know TE almost played as good as Losman last year.

:lmao: Trent played better.

Playing good last year and Losman do not belong in the same sentence.

[gr8slayer]

:lmao: Trent played better.

Playing good last year and Losman do not belong in the same sentence.
Playing good and Edwards doesn't go either :ill: we're just ****ed all around at the QB position right now.

[TacklingDummy]

Playing good and Edwards doesn't go either :ill: we're just ****ed all around at the QB position right now.

Edwards showed enough potential last year to give him a shot next year.

Hopefully he works out.

[Yasgur's Farm]

OK, here goes: I think they should have a training camp/preseason competition. How does handing the team to a totally unproven, second year, third round pick, with out any competition sound? Horrible. Since when does one have a walk on starting job under those conditions? And, when was the last time TE started 16 straight games?

And, I realize this would cause a QB controversy. And, I really don't care. I am fairly confident that JP waxes TE in a fair competition. And, I am fairly confident that JP will go on to be the better QB. If some hurt feeling is what it takes to keep the better QB in Buffalo, I'm all for it. And, if by some miracle it was a fair completion and JP lost, at least I wouldn't second guess their move, and question their motives for the next twenty years. And, at least we would have a pretty darn good backup.

And, in case anyone is wondering, I know TE almost played as good as Losman last year. But, I believe that was a water downed offense. With water downed talent, water downed coaching, water downed game planning and water downed play calling. Heck water Vodka down, and even beer can taste stronger. Take that water away, and you better respect the Vodka.

Turk talks a good game. Hopefully he can suck up some of the water, and let the alcohol..... I mean talent, take over. And hopefully he isn't a puppet and man enough to make the decision. Or at least man enough to try. And, hopefully he isn't as finicky and rash as most fans.

Now, I have to add, if they have no intentions of giving JP a fair shot, trade him to the highest bidder, and sign a veteran free agent. There are like a dozen of them that would like one more year. Holcomb available?Voice of reason here. Some of you should lose the hate and see the real needs of the Bills.

[yordad]

:lmao: Trent played better.

Playing good last year and Losman do not belong in the same sentence.Trent played better? No, he didn't. Honestly, I don't even think it is debatable.


http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=143374

One of 50 bad TE arguments....

JP Played himself out of a job vs. Jacksonville?

JP’s passer rating on year = 76.9
JP’s passer rating in Jags game that got him benched = 67.81
Trent’s passer rating on the year = 70.4
Trent’s passer rating on the year minus his best game = 64.83

So, if you take out Trent’s one good game verse the worst team in the league, his passer rating in 2.98 points lower then the game that got JP benched. And, if you count it, his passer rating is only 2.59 points higher then the game that got JP benched but still 6.5 points lower then JP’s on the year not taking out any bad games. Complicated?

I‘ll say it another way. Trent’s combined 34.42 quarters (his year minus the one game) QB rating is worst then the 4 quarters that got JP benched. Plus I will add that A-train got the start in Jacksonville. I think that is worth three points right there.

[gr8slayer]

Edwards showed enough potential last year to give him a shot next year.

Hopefully he works out.
I don't know about that, we're basically doing with him what we did with Losman two years ago by appointing him the starter without there being any competition. You might be thinking potential because of your anyone but Losman approach but honestly, he was horrible.

That being said I can live with us giving him another chance since I don't finalize my opinion on rookies until they've had a chance to play three seasons.

[gr8slayer]

Trent played better? No, he didn't. Honestly, I don't even think it is debatable.


http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=143374

One of 50 bad TE arguments....

JP Played himself out of a job vs. Jacksonville?

JP’s passer rating on year = 76.9
JP’s passer rating in Jags game that got him benched = 67.81
Trent’s passer rating on the year = 70.4
Trent’s passer rating on the year minus his best game = 64.83

So, if you take out Trent’s one good game verse the worst team in the league, his passer rating in 2.98 points lower then the game that got JP benched. And, if you count it, his passer rating is only 2.59 points higher then the game that got JP benched but still 6.5 points lower then JP’s on the year not taking out any bad games. Complicated?

I‘ll say it another way. Trent’s combined 34.42 quarters (his year minus the one game) QB rating is worst then the 4 quarters that got JP benched. Plus I will add that A-train got the start in Jacksonville. I think that is worth three points right there.
No offense but passer rating is by far the most useless statistic in sports. I don't feel good with either of them being the starter and I wish we had another option.

[yordad]

No offense but passer rating is by far the most useless statistic in sports. I don't feel good with either of them being the starter and I wish we had another option.No offense taken. I have heard that 100 times. But, IMO, it is still the best measure of a passer. And, the link I provided had many more arguments in favor of JP. Including things that don't show up in passer ratings.

[Jeff1220]

Unless an amazing value trade is offered, the team should keep JP. Few NFL QBs go an entire season w/o missing time and if the Bills really think they can make a playoff run this year, keeping a quality backup is the thing to do.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Now, I have to add, if they have no intentions of giving JP a fair shot, trade him to the highest bidder, and sign a veteran free agent. There are like a dozen of them that would like one more year. Holcomb available?
That's exactly what's going to happen. Dick and the FO has already hailed Edwards as the starter last season, as JP was given a fair shot after Edwards got hurt but squandered it away. No way JP will get yet another fair shot, just disappointed too many times. It's better for both sides to trade him away for him to start fresh elsewhere.

[Philagape]

Trent played better? No, he didn't. Honestly, I don't even think it is debatable.


http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=143374

One of 50 bad TE arguments....

JP Played himself out of a job vs. Jacksonville?

JP’s passer rating on year = 76.9
JP’s passer rating in Jags game that got him benched = 67.81
Trent’s passer rating on the year = 70.4
Trent’s passer rating on the year minus his best game = 64.83

So, if you take out Trent’s one good game verse the worst team in the league, his passer rating in 2.98 points lower then the game that got JP benched. And, if you count it, his passer rating is only 2.59 points higher then the game that got JP benched but still 6.5 points lower then JP’s on the year not taking out any bad games. Complicated?

I‘ll say it another way. Trent’s combined 34.42 quarters (his year minus the one game) QB rating is worst then the 4 quarters that got JP benched. Plus I will add that A-train got the start in Jacksonville. I think that is worth three points right there.

The decision isn't about mere numbers, and the debate can't be reduced to that (especially when taking out only one's best game). The veteran got benched because he was playing like a rookie, so might as well go with the actual rookie who can get better.

[Philagape]

But, IMO, it is still the best measure of a passer.

Last year the second-highest rated passer in the NFL was Damon Huard.

The highest-rated passer in Bills history is Rob Johnson.

The sixth-highest rated passer of all time is Daunte Culppepper.

You need to find a new best measure.

[Yasgur's Farm]

Phil... you're looking at exceptions rather than rule.

[Typ0]

That's exactly what's going to happen. Dick and the FO has already hailed Edwards as the starter last season, as JP was given a fair shot after Edwards got hurt but squandered it away. No way JP will get yet another fair shot, just disappointed too many times. It's better for both sides to trade him away for him to start fresh elsewhere.

so basically, you are saying if JP is on the team he's not going to get a fair shot. Instead, the organization is going to be plotting against him and sabotaging his efforts in such a way they are going to make sure he can't succeed. The mentality of the licker is very similar to a fat woman on the rag with a bad case of rabies.

[Mitchy moo]

Last year the second-highest rated passer in the NFL was Damon Huard.

The highest-rated passer in Bills history is Rob Johnson.

The sixth-highest rated passer of all time is Daunte Culppepper.

You need to find a new best measure.

:respect:

[mybills]

That's disGusting, Keith!

yeah, I know it's spelled wrong..that's how we say it here. :;

[TacklingDummy]

It amazes me that some posters still want JP. I guess 4 years is not enough torture.

[Philagape]

Phil... you're looking at exceptions rather than rule.

Exceptions that glaring mean there is no rule.

[Mr. Pink]

It amazes me that some posters still want JP. I guess 4 years is not enough torture.

I second this.

How some people around want to watch a guy who couldn't progress in 4 years of either observing the NFL game or playing the NFL game play another season completely baffles me.

I said it before, and I'll say it again, the only chance JP has of even being a 2nd stringer in this league is if he somehow is on the Bills roster next season.

[feldspar]

Trent played better? No, he didn't. Honestly, I don't even think it is debatable.


http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=143374

One of 50 bad TE arguments....

JP Played himself out of a job vs. Jacksonville?

JP’s passer rating on year = 76.9
JP’s passer rating in Jags game that got him benched = 67.81
Trent’s passer rating on the year = 70.4
Trent’s passer rating on the year minus his best game = 64.83

So, if you take out Trent’s one good game verse the worst team in the league, his passer rating in 2.98 points lower then the game that got JP benched. And, if you count it, his passer rating is only 2.59 points higher then the game that got JP benched but still 6.5 points lower then JP’s on the year not taking out any bad games. Complicated?

I‘ll say it another way. Trent’s combined 34.42 quarters (his year minus the one game) QB rating is worst then the 4 quarters that got JP benched. Plus I will add that A-train got the start in Jacksonville. I think that is worth three points right there.
Edwards’ final numbers were not as impressive as they might have been. He completed 56.1 percent of his passes with seven touchdowns, eight interceptions and a passer rating of 70.4. That’s better than the average rookie or first-year starter. Losman hit 49.6 percent with a 64.9 rating his first season on the field. Of course, the Bills aren’t shooting for average with Edwards.

Edwards’ statistics were dragged way down by the two miserable weather games in December — the blizzard game at Cleveland and the near typhoon at home against the New York Giants.

Edwards’ combined numbers those two games were 22 of 59 for 285 yards with two TDs and three INTs. His passer rating was 43.4. That showing would look especially bad if the opposing quarterbacks had fared well. They didn’t.

Cleveland’s Derek Anderson and the Giants’ Eli Manning combined for 16 of 39 for 248 yards with no TDs and two INTs. Their combined passer rating: 41.4.

Take away those two games, and Edwards completed 62.6 percent of his passes in his starts with five TDs, four interceptions and a rating of 79.8. Edwards passed for the most yards ever by a rookie drafted in the third round since the NFL started its common draft in 1967.

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bi...ry/244768.html

[gr8slayer]

Edwards’ final numbers were not as impressive as they might have been. He completed 56.1 percent of his passes with seven touchdowns, eight interceptions and a passer rating of 70.4. That’s better than the average rookie or first-year starter. Losman hit 49.6 percent with a 64.9 rating his first season on the field. Of course, the Bills aren’t shooting for average with Edwards.

Edwards’ statistics were dragged way down by the two miserable weather games in December — the blizzard game at Cleveland and the near typhoon at home against the New York Giants.

Edwards’ combined numbers those two games were 22 of 59 for 285 yards with two TDs and three INTs. His passer rating was 43.4. That showing would look especially bad if the opposing quarterbacks had fared well. They didn’t.

Cleveland’s Derek Anderson and the Giants’ Eli Manning combined for 16 of 39 for 248 yards with no TDs and two INTs. Their combined passer rating: 41.4.

Take away those two games, and Edwards completed 62.6 percent of his passes in his starts with five TDs, four interceptions and a rating of 79.8. Edwards passed for the most yards ever by a rookie drafted in the third round since the NFL started its common draft in 1967.

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bi...ry/244768.html
The simple fact that Edwards failed to throw more than one TD in five straight games should tell you all you need to know. His TD's are inflated because of his game against Miami.

Candy coat it anyway you'd like, he had a horrible year rookie or not and has a long way to go.

[TacklingDummy]

The simple fact that Edwards failed to throw more than one TD in five straight games should tell you all you need to know. His TD's are inflated because of his game against Miami..

JP's career is inflated because of games against Miami, Houston, and the Bengals.

[gr8slayer]

JP's career is inflated because of games against Miami, Houston, and the Bengals.
We're done with Losman, now it's about Edwards.

[TacklingDummy]

We're done with Losman, now it's about Edwards.

We're not done with JP until he is no longer in a Bills uniform.

[Philagape]

The simple fact that Edwards failed to throw more than one TD in five straight games should tell you all you need to know.

No, it doesn't. Not even close. The only word in that statement that is relevant is "simple."

[gr8slayer]

No, it doesn't. Not even close. The only word in that statement that is relevant is "simple."
You keep wearing your rose colored glasses, until he looks like an NFL QB I don't think we have a prayer.

[gr8slayer]

We're not done with JP until he is no longer in a Bills uniform.
I'm done with him, I wish him the best elsewhere. I just hope we aren't having this same conversation about Edwards next year.

[yordad]

Last year the second-highest rated passer in the NFL was Damon Huard.

The highest-rated passer in Bills history is Rob Johnson.

The sixth-highest rated passer of all time is Daunte Culppepper.

You need to find a new best measure.Are you serious? It measures TDs, Ints, completion %, and yards. Please show me a better way to MEASURE a passer. And, keep in mind, I didn't say measure a QB. That is why I provided the link (for those who haven't read it, which I know you have). Because I wasn't focusing on just the rating, but it was one thing measureable, so I used it as an example.

Please, show me a stat that measures passing better. Even if you have to invent one, what is it?

[yordad]

The decision isn't about mere numbers, and the debate can't be reduced to that (especially when taking out only one's best game). The veteran got benched because he was playing like a rookie, so might as well go with the actual rookie who can get better.Fine, take out boths best games. Actually, better yet, take out no games.

[yordad]

Exceptions that glaring mean there is no rule.Who says there has to be a rule? Gez man, think generally if you must.

[Philagape]

And, keep in mind, I didn't say measure a QB.

Then why even bring it up? It's QBs we're talking about, not just passers. And they can't be rightly discussed without talking about intangibles .... immeasurables. If everything about a QB could be measured, then there would never be busts because we'd know all there was to know from a scouting combine. The most important factor of a QB's game -- his mental aptitude on the field -- is immeasurable.
And in a debate like this, experience must be a factor, since the position has the highest learning curve of any.
And in this debate particularly, the numbers are even more irrelevant because they were both bad. The only pertinent issues are why they were bad and what those reasons mean for the future.

[yordad]

Then why even bring it up? It's QBs we're talking about, not just passers. And they can't be rightly discussed without talking about intangibles .... immeasurables. If everything about a QB could be measured, then there would never be busts because we'd know all there was to know from a scouting combine. The most important factor of a QB's game -- his mental aptitude on the field -- is immeasurable.
And in a debate like this, experience must be a factor, since the position has the highest learning curve of any.
And in this debate particularly, the numbers are even more irrelevant because they were both bad. The only pertinent issues are why they were bad and what those reasons mean for the future.I already answered why I posted it. I provided a link with much more info. That is why I posted it. It was one of like a dozen arguments. You know this, why are you asking? Also, since when does the combine measure yards thrown for, and completion % for the NFL?

How do you measure immeasurables? Production.

[Michael82]

WHAT do u think we could get for him????? HONESTLY
3rd rounder, or a conditional 2nd round pick in 2009.

[gr8slayer]

3rd rounder, or a conditional 2nd round pick in 2009.
Not a prayer.

[HHURRICANE]

Not a prayer.

I agree with Mikey. Teams are desperate for QBs and JP would be the best available which means very good trade value.

[DraftBoy]

I think your both high, ask for a 5th and if they take it run with it as soon as you can. Just because he's best value doesn't mean he's worth a ton especially with a good QB class in the draft.

As for Losman v. Edwards, I dont like either but Im over Losman, so go Trent this year and lets draft a project in case he doesn't work out.

[gr8slayer]

I think your both high, ask for a 5th and if they take it run with it as soon as you can. Just because he's best value doesn't mean he's worth a ton especially with a good QB class in the draft. I agree, 5th is the best but I would say more like 6th.

As for Losman v. Edwards, I dont like either but Im over Losman, so go Trent this year and lets draft a project in case he doesn't work out. Yeah, we're kind of stuck with the worst tandem in the league :ill:

[Voltron]

I personally thought all in all that JP took his benching like a champ. You really heard nothing from him but that he is upset and would like a chance to start somewhere else. I really don't find anything unusual or unreasonable about that at all except that he is under contract. Hopefully we can package him with a draft pick to move up in the draft and grab a gamer, fingers crossed.
I would have to agree. There were not even any "whispers" reported during the season. He waited until the end of the season before he made his feelings public. He has been a team player. Now his agents comment about looking over his shoulder all the time is BS because every coach will tell you that every player is in a competition all the time for a starting job. How does he think DB felt the year he was drafted? :idunno:

[DraftBoy]

I would have to agree. There were not even any "whispers" reported during the season. He waited until the end of the season before he made his feelings public. He has been a team player. Now his agents comment about looking over his shoulder all the time is BS because every coach will tell you that every player is in a competition all the time for a starting job. How does he think DB felt the year he was drafted? :idunno:


I felt fine, I liked the pick actually, I was wrong about it though, so now its just sour grapes.

[Philagape]

I already answered why I posted it. I provided a link with much more info. That is why I posted it. It was one of like a dozen arguments. You know this, why are you asking?

Because you undermine your own arguments ...


Many of these aren’t points, just counter points. What I mean is, in some cases the statistical difference isn’t very large. And, probably isn’t worth mentioning.

And of all the hundreds of words "not worth mentioning," the one that is worth it is rookie. The veteran's numbers were barely better than a rookie. And that only after the rookie played in extraordinarily bad weather. And like I said, comparing bad to bad is pointless anyway. Sucking a little less is not an argument, especially when it's just raw data with no context. One of the immeasurables is the future, and a rookie's production on a horrible offense says nothing about that.

[hydro]

Because you undermine your own arguments ...



And of all the hundreds of words "not worth mentioning," the one that is worth it is rookie. The veteran's numbers were barely better than a rookie. And that only after the rookie played in extraordinarily bad weather. And like I said, comparing bad to bad is pointless anyway. Sucking a little less is not an argument, especially when it's just raw data with no context. One of the immeasurables is the future, and a rookie's production on a horrible offense says nothing about that.

:bf1:

[yordad]

Because you undermine your own arguments ...



And of all the hundreds of words "not worth mentioning," the one that is worth it is rookie. The veteran's numbers were barely better than a rookie. And that only after the rookie played in extraordinarily bad weather. And like I said, comparing bad to bad is pointless anyway. Sucking a little less is not an argument, especially when it's just raw data with no context. One of the immeasurables is the future, and a rookie's production on a horrible offense says nothing about that.Dude, I love how your quotes take everything out of context. Do you know what a counter point is?

[Philagape]

Dude, I love how your quotes take everything out of context. Do you know what a counter point is?

Take out the counterpoints, and there's not much left. You spend a lot of time trying to argue against something but not for anything. "JP sucked a little bit less" is saying nothing.

[Mr. Miyagi]

I felt fine, I liked the pick actually, I was wrong about it though, so now its just sour grapes.
DB if you were any more negative I might start confusing you with patmoran. Don't do it bro.

[Meathead]

i could go either way on this

on one hand edwards is certainly unproven, struggled the more defenses got to look at him on film, and has a history of injuries. should he falter one way or another jp is great insurance. furthermore, i have not given up on jp long term and its quite possible once he gets back in there no matter how he could shine. id rather that be here than someplace else

otoh if edwards does pan out then the bills will likely lose jp next year with no compensation. it would obviously be better in that situation if they could pick up a 3rd/5th rounder and turn it into another solid player to fill out the roster

normally here is when i would say trust in the marv but well lets not go there

[gr8slayer]

I felt fine, I liked the pick actually, I was wrong about it though, so now its just sour grapes.
The talent was and still is there. Hopefully with the right coaching staff and guidance he can still be a good player.

[DraftBoy]

DB if you were any more negative I might start confusing you with patmoran. Don't do it bro.

Sweet, I can ratchet it up a notch or two. 8 years of mediocrity have left me with little to no confidence in the FO to produce a winner.

[DraftBoy]

The talent was and still is there. Hopefully with the right coaching staff and guidance he can still be a good player.

Talent is there yes, but the most important thing that resides between the ears however is not.

[gr8slayer]

Talent is there yes, but the most important thing that resides between the ears however is not.
I'm not sure we can say that without a doubt, he wasn't presented with the best chance to succeed here. I would argue that few rookie QB's could do well with as much as he got kicked around by the organization.

[kernowboy]

I think if we tried to trade him for a pick in the 2008 draft then we are looking at the 4th round - he offers as much as Ainge, Johnson, etc

Or by asking for something in 2009 we might get better value - play now, pay later. It gives us a chance to bring in a vet, though if Edwards doesn't come through or gets injured, we may not have a great season.

Whatever happens Losman walks at the end of the forthcoming season, and I can easily see us going with a Day1 QB pick come next years draft.

Hunter Cantwell
Todd Boeckmann
Curtis Painter

all would be worthy of consideration

[yordad]

Take out the counterpoints, and there's not much left. You spend a lot of time trying to argue against something but not for anything. "JP sucked a little bit less" is saying nothing.The whole team sucked. Not just the QBs. And, if both actually do suck, I'm all for starting the one that sucks less. And, if the one that sucks more will be better someday, I advocate waiting til he sucks less before starting him. And, I'm against just handing him the job in hopes that he will suck less. Git it?

[Jeff1220]

Btw, for the record (since there are strong opinions about this one particular website), this article the whole thread is based upon is written by Mike Florio - the guy who runs profootballtalk.com

[The last buffalo fan]

I'm not comfortable with Edwards under Center either :ill:

:hi5: :ill:

[Philagape]

The whole team sucked. Not just the QBs. And, if both actually do suck, I'm all for starting the one that sucks less. And, if the one that sucks more will be better someday, I advocate waiting til he sucks less before starting him. And, I'm against just handing him the job in hopes that he will suck less. Git it?

How will we know he sucks less if he doesn't play?

That's why it's a good thing he did. He gave a lot of people reason to believe he'll suck less. He's showing signs of future less sucking a lot faster than the other guy did. It's all about upside.

[TacklingDummy]

If we would have just stuck with Rob Johnson. He would have reached his potential by now.

[gr8slayer]

If we would have just stuck with Rob Johnson. He would have reached his potential by now.
With as bad as the QB play has been as of late I don't think anyone would have noticed that he was gone. He looked better than Losman and Edwards.

[yordad]

How will we know he sucks less if he doesn't play?

That's why it's a good thing he did. He gave a lot of people reason to believe he'll suck less. He's showing signs of future less sucking a lot faster than the other guy did. It's all about upside.Camp, practice, preseason. If he performs better, he starts. If he doesn't, then he doesn't start. He waits until there is another injury. And, if he outperforms then starter, then ok, start him. Just like any other team. But, you don't put in the backup after an injury to your starter, and then trade your starter because your backup performs almost as good. Besides, with the crappy offense we were running, anyone would have looked bad in it, or at least equally less than mediocre.

[yordad]

If we would have just stuck with Rob Johnson. He would have reached his potential by now.What if we did keep him, and he just reached his "potential"? Would it have been worth it?

[TacklingDummy]

JP already has had 5 chances. He doesn't deserve another one with the Bills.

[TacklingDummy]

What if we did keep him, and he just reached his "potential"? Would it have been worth it?

So another words we should keep whatever QB we pick up and start him no matter how bad/well he plays until his career is over? Maybe 10 years down the road he would reach his potential. If he doesn't then we will know officially that he was a bust.

[yordad]

JP already has had 5 chances. He doesn't deserve another one with the Bills.What are you considering "chances"?

So another words we should keep whatever QB we pick up and start him no matter how bad/well he plays until his career is over? Maybe 10 years down the road he would reach his potential. If he doesn't then we will know officially that he was a bust.No, in other words nothing. Just answer the question.

[Philagape]

But, you don't put in the backup after an injury to your starter, and then trade your starter because your backup performs almost as good. Besides, with the crappy offense we were running, anyone would have looked bad in it, or at least equally less than mediocre.

It's not about the 2007 numbers. 2007 is over. Past. Dead. Irrelevant.

People who harp on Trent's 2007 production talk as if rookies never get better. As if what Trent did in 2007 he'll do for the rest of his career.
A QB's rookie year should NEVER be held against him. Never. QB has the highest learning curve, and most of the good ones had bad rookie years. (This is where some misunderstand say we're "comparing" Trent to other good QBs.)
Upside, upside, upside. This is why people talk about his poise, for example, which you dismiss; that, while it doesn't mean much in the present, bodes well for the future and will turn into production with more experience and a better team. It's one of those mental immeasurables. When a rookie has it, that's reason to believe.

[Meathead]

truth is trent could go either way from here on out. so could jp

trent looked very impressive early on and you gotta love that poise. but poise didnt do jack for him as he was losing his last three and looked pathetic while doing it to dash buffalos playoff hopes

im fine with him going into the season as the number one but anyone who thinks hes a lock to be a capable starting qb in this league is an idiot

[Meathead]

in fact i find a couple things troublesome

b. seems the more film they got on him the worse he did. that could be a bad sign. props to yardrat i think it was that predicted this or maybe it was lecter the molester

9. his difficult weather play was atrocious. im willing to give him a pass this early on that but he simply must do dramatically better real fast cuz if you cant win in bad weather in bflo you got no future here

[TacklingDummy]

What are you considering "chances"?


Two his 2nd year, one his 3rd year, two his 4th year.

He has no one to blame but himself.

[yordad]

It's not about the 2007 numbers. 2007 is over. Past. Dead. Irrelevant.

People who harp on Trent's 2007 production talk as if rookies never get better. As if what Trent did in 2007 he'll do for the rest of his career.
A QB's rookie year should NEVER be held against him. Never. QB has the highest learning curve, and most of the good ones had bad rookie years. (This is where some misunderstand say we're "comparing" Trent to other good QBs.)
Upside, upside, upside. This is why people talk about his poise, for example, which you dismiss; that, while it doesn't mean much in the present, bodes well for the future and will turn into production with more experience and a better team. It's one of those mental immeasurables. When a rookie has it, that's reason to believe.Um... I know '07 is dead. Did you see where I advocated competetion? Heck, go in 50, 50. No starter predetermined. Let camp, practice, and preseason sort it out. If he has improved, and is better then JP at that point, start him. If not, don't. All I have asked is the Bills start their best players. Just like I would ask them to spend all the way to the cap. Just like I would ask them to hire the best coaching options. Just like I was asking them to give Fred Jackson a shot in place of A-train. Just like I was asking for Greer to start last year. Just like I feel McCargo is our best DT.

These decisions should not be made or in any way influenced by an owner. Especially an owner who seems to be wanting to maximize profits, not wins. Since when is an owner a talent judge or scout?

[yordad]

Two his 2nd year, one his 3rd year, two his 4th year.

He has no one to blame but himself.What?? I'm not sure I even know what you are even saying right now. LOL. But, I was pretty sure I wasn't going to get a completely coherent response anyways, so I'm not surprised. Care to try that again?

Now, I think you are counting him getting injured as a lost chance? And, I think you are counting a successful complete year as a first time starter as a failure? And, I think you are counting him getting yanked by an inadequate panicking coach trying to save his job as two lost chances?

And, I also think you are referring to the Jags game this past year? You know, the game that was so horrible it was actually better (arguably) than Trents entire season (see above statistics). And it happened to be against an awesome defense, on the road, with the A-train starting, and every card in the deck stacked against him.

I think it is fair to say I don't think he was given 5 chances. Unless you change your criteria.

[Philagape]

And, I also think you are referring to the Jags game this past year? You know, the game that was so horrible it was actually better (arguably) than Trents entire season (see above statistics). And it happened to be against an awesome defense, on the road, with the A-train starting, and every card in the deck stacked against him.

Trent's season is irrelevant to what JP did in the Jags game. That entire argument is meaningless.
Whatever "cards" were stacked against him, he performed poorly. He made bad passes and bad decisions. Passes and decisions are on no one but the QB. If JP is the answer, then at this point in his career he needs to do better against good teams on the road. Excuses are like training wheels; the more a QB has played, the fewer he has. If he still needs training wheels in his third season playing and needs everything else to go right to have a decent game, then he deserves to get yanked. That's failure. An unknown with upside -- even if the unknown's numbers are slightly worse in the present -- should get the nod over a failure.
You haven't been here the last few years; before this season, I gave JP all the benefit of the doubt that I'm giving Trent now. I defended him for two years. And he let me down. And if Trent is still playing like a rookie at the same point, I'll turn on him too.
The biggest "card" against JP has always been himself. We can't wait any longer.

[yordad]

Trent's season is irrelevant to what JP did in the Jags game. That entire argument is meaningless.
Whatever "cards" were stacked against him, he performed poorly. He made bad passes and bad decisions. Passes and decisions are on no one but the QB. If JP is the answer, then at this point in his career he needs to do better against good teams on the road. Excuses are like training wheels; the more a QB has played, the fewer he has. If he still needs training wheels in his third season playing and needs everything else to go right to have a decent game, then he deserves to get yanked. That's failure. An unknown with upside -- even if the unknown's numbers are slightly worse in the present -- should get the nod over a failure.
You haven't been here the last few years; before this season, I gave JP all the benefit of the doubt that I'm giving Trent now. I defended him for two years. And he let me down. And if Trent is still playing like a rookie at the same point, I'll turn on him too.
The biggest "card" against JP has always been himself. We can't wait any longer.First, it is no where near irrelevant. In fact, you are so far off by calling it irrelevant I almost didn't read the rest of your post. It is 100% relevant. The game that got JP benched was better than TE's average game and you call it irrelevant? I'm not even sure this is worth debating any longer at this point.

But, I did read on (giving you the benifit of the doubt, based on your numerous good post on other topics). The whole team was bad. A-train was bad. The WRs were bad. The defense was bad. The Tights ends were really bad. The backup QB was bad. The coaching was bad. The play calling was bad. Heck, the ownership was bad. WHY IS ALL THIS JP'S FAULT?

Because, the human mind wants excuses. It wants fast fixes. It wants answers. It doesn't want complication. So, you WANT to blame JP.

So, tell me, with almost no one on this entire team, counting coaches, players, and front office, performing good, how did you expect a QB to play good? Especially against a team that is performing.

[Mr. Pink]

First, it is no where near irrelevant. In fact, you are so far off by calling it irrelevant I almost didn't read the rest of your post. It is 100% relevant. The game that got JP benched was better than TE's average game and you call it irrelevant? I'm not even sure this is worth debating any longer at this point.

But, I did read on (giving you the benifit of the doubt, based on your numerous good post on other topics). The whole team was bad. A-train was bad. The WRs were bad. The defense was bad. The Tights ends were really bad. The backup QB was bad. The coaching was bad. The play calling was bad. Heck, the ownership was bad. WHY IS ALL THIS JP'S FAULT?

Because, the human mind wants excuses. It wants fast fixes. It wants answers. It doesn't want complication. So, you WANT to blame JP.

So, tell me, with almost no one on this entire team, counting coaches, players, and front office, performing good, how did you expect a QB to play good? Especially against a team that is performing.

How do you expect a running game to play well when you don't have to respect the QB and the passing game? How do you expect WRs to play well when the QB can't hit them? How do you expect the offense to play well when the QB has no semblance of ball security? How do you expect the offensive line to play well when the QB doesn't know what pocket awareness is?

So who's fault is it when JP was throwing the ball 10 feet over WRs heads in that Jags game?

Who's fault was it when JP fumbled on 4th and 1?

Who's fault was it when JP fumbled after running into the ref?

Who's fault is it when JP gets sacked more times per dropback than Trent did behind the same line?

Who's fault is it that JP has WAY more negative plays last season than Trent?

Who's fault is that JP can't read a backside blitz?

I can go on and on and on...this team had many faults last year offensively and most of them centered around completely inept QB play.

When you have a 4 year vet playing like a rookie it's time to cut the cord. Period.

At this point, I'd rather bring Jeff George off the scrap heap and throw him behind center than ever see JP take another snap as the QB of the Buffalo Bills.

You name me a QB in the league today and 9 times out of 10 I'll take whoever you name over JP.

[gr8slayer]

I'll be interested to see what people are saying this time next year if Edwards still hasn't figured it out.

[Philagape]

The whole team was bad. A-train was bad. The WRs were bad. The defense was bad. The Tights ends were really bad. The backup QB was bad. The coaching was bad. The play calling was bad. Heck, the ownership was bad. WHY IS ALL THIS JP'S FAULT?

Because, the human mind wants excuses. It wants fast fixes. It wants answers. It doesn't want complication. So, you WANT to blame JP.

So, tell me, with almost no one on this entire team, counting coaches, players, and front office, performing good, how did you expect a QB to play good? Especially against a team that is performing.

Tell me how anyone else -- coaching, the running back, the receivers, the play calling, the ownership -- affects how well the quarterback's arm throws the football. Arm. Football. The only two things involved, except the few times when there's a pass rusher literally hitting him as he throws.
Then tell me how any of that affects the quarterback's decisions. Only one thing involved there: the quarterback's mind. The QB can't control what's around him, but ONLY he can control the decision he makes when reacting to what's around him.
I said passes and decisions. Those are ONLY on the quarterback, and when the QB makes bad passes and bad decisions, those are ALL HIS FAULT. I'd be happy to talk about how the bad coaching is the coaches' fault, or how the bad receiving is the receivers' fault, but we're talking about the QB, and you don't seem to think anything is the QB's fault. That's where your human mind comes up with fast, simple excuses because you don't talk about the complication of the QB position.
JP's defenders seem to want to talk about how everyone else plays except the QB. They're fine saying the receivers suck, or the coaches suck, but as for the QB, well, he's just a robot whose performance depends entirely on other factors. Is JP not a player who does some things on his own? Only one person handles the football at a time. From the time the QB takes the snap to the time he releases the ball or whatever else he does, he alone is responsible for it.
What will it take for you to say a QB sucks?? Whatever it is, JP has done it.
All I've ever done is hold JP responsible only for what JP does. He's not on puppet strings. No matter what else is around him, he can still make good throws and good decisions. A good QB can make those around him better.


The game that got JP benched was better than TE's average game and you call it irrelevant?

Yes. Because it absolutely is. And I've already explained why. It's not about their 2007 numbers -- especially when, at that point, Trent hadn't even played the whole season yet! JP shouldn't have been benched because of numbers that didn't exist yet?? Holy crap! That makes it a ridiculous point that makes the debate not worth it.

[HHURRICANE]

I really can't belive that there are still people here defending JP.

The guy got all of 2006 where we sacrificed the first 7 games teaching him how to operate in the pocket. He plays terrible in the '07 pre-season, starts out horrible in the regular season, gets a bunch of easy games on his comeback trail and loses a must win game with a zillion turnovers. Admits he sucks and we still have people defending him. Geez.

[TacklingDummy]

I really can't belive that there are still people here defending JP.

The guy got all of 2006 where we sacrificed the first 7 games teaching him how to operate in the pocket. He plays terrible in the '07 pre-season, starts out horrible in the regular season, gets a bunch of easy games on his comeback trail and loses a must win game with a zillion turnovers. Admits he sucks and we still have people defending him. Geez.

It's amazing.

[gr8slayer]

It will be interesting to bring up threads like this next year and see if the Edwards people defend him to the death like people did with Losman if he stinks the place up again this season.

[TacklingDummy]

It will be interesting to bring up threads like this next year and see if the Edwards people defend him to the death like people did with Losman if he stinks the place up again this season.

If TE stinks, Dummy will call him on it.

[gr8slayer]

If TE stinks, Dummy will call him on it.
Oh I know you will, you weren't the on I was talking about.

[djjimkelly]

If TE stinks, Dummy will call him on it.


he was a 40% QB in december


give that a call at 1-976- ED U SUCK

[yordad]

Tell me how anyone else -- coaching, the running back, the receivers, the play calling, the ownership -- affects how well the quarterback's arm throws the football. Arm. Football. The only two things involved, except the few times when there's a pass rusher literally hitting him as he throws.
Then tell me how any of that affects the quarterback's decisions. Only one thing involved there: the quarterback's mind. The QB can't control what's around him, but ONLY he can control the decision he makes when reacting to what's around him.
I said passes and decisions. Those are ONLY on the quarterback, and when the QB makes bad passes and bad decisions, those are ALL HIS FAULT. I'd be happy to talk about how the bad coaching is the coaches' fault, or how the bad receiving is the receivers' fault, but we're talking about the QB, and you don't seem to think anything is the QB's fault. That's where your human mind comes up with fast, simple excuses because you don't talk about the complication of the QB position.
JP's defenders seem to want to talk about how everyone else plays except the QB. They're fine saying the receivers suck, or the coaches suck, but as for the QB, well, he's just a robot whose performance depends entirely on other factors. Is JP not a player who does some things on his own? Only one person handles the football at a time. From the time the QB takes the snap to the time he releases the ball or whatever else he does, he alone is responsible for it.
What will it take for you to say a QB sucks?? Whatever it is, JP has done it.
All I've ever done is hold JP responsible only for what JP does. He's not on puppet strings. No matter what else is around him, he can still make good throws and good decisions. A good QB can make those around him better.



Yes. Because it absolutely is. And I've already explained why. It's not about their 2007 numbers -- especially when, at that point, Trent hadn't even played the whole season yet! JP shouldn't have been benched because of numbers that didn't exist yet?? Holy crap! That makes it a ridiculous point that makes the debate not worth it.LOL, that is funny. You just typed this in a different thread about Edwards...

What's "average" for a rookie on a horrible team?
So, you make the excuse for one QB, and it isn't a good excuse for the other? Let me guess, it is the irrelevant fact JP is two years older, isn't it?

[Philagape]

LOL, that is funny. You just typed this in a different thread about Edwards...

So, you make the excuse for one QB, and it isn't a good excuse for the other? Let me guess, it is the irrelevant fact JP is two years older, isn't it?

The difference between a rookie QB and third-year QB (four years in the league) is light years.

[yordad]

The difference between a rookie QB and third-year QB (four years in the league) is light years.
Well, I thought JP was better, but light years? Sure.

[hydro]

Well, I thought JP was better, but light years? Sure.

Talk about taking a post out of context. A+ work there :up: