Forked Thread: Why do I do that to myself?

[chernobylwraiths]

Forked from: Why do I do that to myself? (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?postid=2332404)


I'm trying to be reserved here but as a co-creator of a site that was entitled Flutie Haters site I have issues saying that Flutie deserved to start against Tennessee but alas don't want to rehash old debates.

So, years later you STILL think Johnson was a better QB than Flutie? Flutie might have been all about himself and self promotion, but he was right about one thing. He was a much better QB than Johnson.

[Meathead]

if you recall fluties magic was the only thing keeping the team winning. he still had that ability to come up with the one or two plays a game that usually made the difference. but the bills were struggling to move the ball cuz defenses were not afraid of him going over the top any more

so while he was the better qb overall im not sure the bills coulda won in the playoffs with him that year. rj didnt have nearly the field presence and game management but he at least offered them the ability to go down the field. and he actually did pretty well that game before the illegal lateral took it away from him

im not saying either way whether he should have played or not, im just pointing out there was at least a rationale for what bums son did

[Ebenezer]

OMG...it's been years...put it to rest...should we resurrect the LaMonica and Kemp discussions too?

[Oldbillsfan]

The only thing Rob Johnson was good at was wearing a scarf on his head.

[Jan Reimers]

I believe Flutie was 21-9 as the starter during those years, and Johnson something like 7-11?

How can there be any controversy?

[Cntrygal]

should we resurrect the LaMonica and Kemp discussions too?


Yes!!!!

[Philagape]

If only we had Flutie's head on Johnson's body :sigh:

[The Jokeman]

Forked from: Why do I do that to myself? (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?postid=2332404)



So, years later you STILL think Johnson was a better QB than Flutie? Flutie might have been all about himself and self promotion, but he was right about one thing. He was a much better QB than Johnson.
Did you read my followup?


I detest Flutie with a passion so much so I created a website about it so no amount of debating will convince me he should have played that playoff game. I will go so far to say he was a better QB then RJ. Yet at the same time think RJ was the QB that got boned not Flutie, as QBs take time on the field to develop not on the bench.
As it seems most people remember Doug because of the comeback he had against the Jags in 1998 but people forget the weeks prior when RJ lead us to wins over San Francisco and was great against the Rams. That said RJ had his flaws in that like JP don't think he could process his reads fast enough and was unable to take a hit. I feel had RJ actually given a chance to play more then 18 games (as in Doug should have been benched sooner then the 1999 season finale)he might have developed and honed his skills but alas one will never know

[Ebenezer]

Yes!!!!
there's always one in the crowd...and you aren't even old enough to remember those days.

[chernobylwraiths]

OMG...it's been years...put it to rest...should we resurrect the LaMonica and Kemp discussions too?

OMG, STFU if you don't want to talk about it! If you don't like it, don't ***** read it! Jeez, it's boring enough here just talking about free agents and the draft without someone telling us what NOT to debate. We have several years now to look back at the situation and see what mistakes were made. I am surprised that there are still people who are so blinded by hatred that they would still think RJ was still the better choice over DF.

For meathead, Rob Johnson was 10 of 22 for 131 yards, no TD or INTs. He also was sacked six times and lost two fumbles (I don't know if they considered the fumble out of the end zone for the safety a lost fumble or not). Flutie for all his faults was usually able to scramble out of the way with our poor offensive line. He tended to make more mistakes than Johnson, but that was because he actually took chances.

[chernobylwraiths]

Did you read my followup?


As it seems most people remember Doug because of the comeback he had against the Jags in 1998 but people forget the weeks prior when RJ lead us to wins over San Francisco and was great against the Rams. That said RJ had his flaws in that like JP don't think he could process his reads fast enough and was unable to take a hit. I feel had RJ actually given a chance to play more then 18 games (as in Doug should have been benched sooner then the 1999 season finale)he might have developed and honed his skills but alas one will never know

Your argument is based just on your hatred of Flutie. You even say that you would rather have the worse QB in there then. Gotcha! RJ got more time after Doug left and never amounted to anything, you now know that but you still think DF shouldn't have played. You have no argument.

[Ebenezer]

OMG, STFU if you don't want to talk about it! If you don't like it, don't ***** read it! Jeez, it's boring enough here just talking about free agents and the draft without someone telling us what NOT to debate. We have several years now to look back at the situation and see what mistakes were made. I am surprised that there are still people who are so blinded by hatred that they would still think RJ was still the better choice over DF.

For meathead, Rob Johnson was 10 of 22 for 131 yards, no TD or INTs. He also was sacked six times and lost two fumbles (I don't know if they considered the fumble out of the end zone for the safety a lost fumble or not). Flutie for all his faults was usually able to scramble out of the way with our poor offensive line. He tended to make more mistakes than Johnson, but that was because he actually took chances.
and for the 1,000th time...the choice to cut Flutie was based on caponomics and future potential....and we have no clue what was going on inside of the locker room.

[chernobylwraiths]

and for the 1,000th time...the choice to cut Flutie was based on caponomics and future potential....and we have no clue what was going on inside of the locker room.

Who is talking about cutting Flutie? Are you even READING this thread? Damn man, reread please! I am talking about Flutie not starting the Tennessee game, not him getting cut. I understood the reason for the cut and agreed with it even though I didn't like it and thought we were getting rid of the wrong guy.

[Ebenezer]

Who is talking about cutting Flutie? Are you even READING this thread? Damn man, reread please! I am talking about Flutie not starting the Tennessee game, not him getting cut. I understood the reason for the cut and agreed with it even though I didn't like it and thought we were getting rid of the wrong guy.
oh, if you want to talk about the Tenn game then I guess we can end the conversation and the thread. It is irrelevant. Neither were on the field for the worst special teams disaster or officiating screw up in league history, depending on your point of view. Next.

[chernobylwraiths]

oh, if you want to talk about the Tenn game then I guess we can end the conversation and the thread. It is irrelevant. Neither were on the field for the worst special teams disaster or officiating screw up in league history, depending on your point of view. Next.

That's twice now you inferred that this topic and my question was stupid. Maybe you should be over in the No TOS section asking people which positions they like best.

[Ebenezer]

That's twice now you inferred that this topic and my question was stupid. Maybe you should be over in the No TOS section asking people which positions they like best.
you told me to change from the topic of cutting Flutie to the Tenn game. I did that. The starting QB was irrelevant to the outcome of that game. If that is all you wanted to discuss then the thread is over. Whatelse would you like to discuss?

[TacklingDummy]

I believe Flutie was 21-9 as the starter during those years, and Johnson something like 7-11?

How can there be any controversy?

Flutie record was made against bad teams while Johnson played the against the good teams.

Just like Edwards record was made against the bad teams and JP played against the good teams.

[TacklingDummy]

ifand he actually did pretty well that game before the illegal lateral took it away from him



Sorry meat, RJ played like crap that game and should have been yanked at halftime.

[TacklingDummy]

and for the 1,000th time...the choice to cut Flutie was based on caponomics and future potential....and we have no clue what was going on inside of the locker room.

No one cares about DF being cut. The point is DF should have been the starter for the Tenn. game.

[TacklingDummy]

oh, if you want to talk about the Tenn game then I guess we can end the conversation and the thread. It is irrelevant. Neither were on the field for the worst special teams disaster or officiating screw up in league history, depending on your point of view. Next.

The Bills should have won that game even with the MCM. The play out of the QB position killed us.

[Ebenezer]

The Bills should have won that game even with the MCM. The play out of the QB position killed us.
how? they were leading with just one kick off remaining. Last time I looked the game took 60 minutes, there was another team on the field and all that matters is the final score.

[TacklingDummy]

how? they were leading with just one kick off remaining. Last time I looked the game took 60 minutes, there was another team on the field and all that matters is the final score.

Because RJ was sacked in the endzone for 2 points with the free kick setting up Tenn. for another easy 7. That's 9 points credited to Tenn. that RJ setup. How many did the Bills lose by again?

Not to mention how awful RJ played for most of the games besides 1 drive.

[The Jokeman]

Because RJ was sacked in the endzone for 2 points with the free kick setting up Tenn. for another easy 7. That's 9 points credited to Tenn. that RJ setup. How many did the Bills lose by again?

Not to mention how awful RJ played for most of the games besides 1 drive.
and as bad as RJ played for most of the game he made enough plays at the end to look like he earned us the win which is pretty much what Flutie had done most of that year. Yet the specials teams failed to make a play and as a result we lost. Using this excuse would be liking blaming Bruce Smith for the loss of Super Bowl XXV as had he only stripped the ball and scored a TD instead of just a safety we would have one. Back to RJ/Flutie, let's also not forget the year before in the playoffs against a worse defense Flutie had the chance to win yet he literally dropped the ball with the game on the line when took a sack and fumbled. Not to mention he threw a costly INT just before the first half ended that cost us at least 3 points.

[Michael82]

No one cares about DF being cut. The point is DF should have been the starter for the Tenn. game.
Exactly! Good post! :bf1:

[TedMock]

Because RJ was sacked in the endzone for 2 points with the free kick setting up Tenn. for another easy 7. That's 9 points credited to Tenn. that RJ setup. How many did the Bills lose by again?

Not to mention how awful RJ played for most of the games besides 1 drive.

That's true and RJ sucked, but we can say the same about Flutie's tenure. Don't forget that our offense averaged only 14 points per game with Flutie. Our defense had a handful of TD's and kept the other team from scoring as they were a top-5 unit at the time.

Not sticking up for RJ. Again, he sucked. I'm just pointing out that Flutie also sucked and I can't believe we're still talking about two of the worst QB's I've ever watched.

[ddaryl]

I'm struggling to understand the need to even bring up this subject ever again.

[Ickybaluky]

The thing that I wonder is, how can a guy hate Flutie for being selfish me-guy, and like Rob Johnson who positively worshipped himself. Last I checked, RJ wasn't exactly your consumate pro. He was a guy that took his money and ran, who refused to change the way he played.

[Jan Reimers]

I'm struggling to understand the need to even bring up this subject ever again.
It's February.

[Ebenezer]

Don't I remember a playoff game where Flutie got sacked and fumbled at the Miami 2 yard line? I think that might have cost us a win. Does that factor into this equation?

[chernobylwraiths]

Don't I remember a playoff game where Flutie got sacked and fumbled at the Miami 2 yard line? I think that might have cost us a win. Does that factor into this equation?

Cost us a possible tie.

[chernobylwraiths]

I think it is hilarious that people who hate the subject will come to the thread knowing what it is about and post how they hate the subject and how nobody should ever bring it back up again. What a bunch of ***** whiners! One thread on the subject and they get all bent.

It is equally funny how the people who staunchly supported Johnson will never give DF credit but say how both QBs sucked. It must gall them that DF played an important part in keeping the Bills in Buffalo.

[chernobylwraiths]

That's true and RJ sucked, but we can say the same about Flutie's tenure. Don't forget that our offense averaged only 14 points per game with Flutie. Our defense had a handful of TD's and kept the other team from scoring as they were a top-5 unit at the time.

Not sticking up for RJ. Again, he sucked. I'm just pointing out that Flutie also sucked and I can't believe we're still talking about two of the worst QB's I've ever watched.

Did you miss the Bruce Matheson, Joe Dufek, Billie Joe Hobart, Todd Collins, Vince Ferrigamo, Kelly Holcomb and JP Losman years?

[Ebenezer]

Cost us a possible tie.
got to tie it in order to win it...RJ was leading when he left the field.

[chernobylwraiths]

got to tie it in order to win it...RJ was leading when he left the field.

Both were losses. RJ actually GAVE points to the other team.

[Ebenezer]

Both were losses. RJ actually GAVE points to the other team.
but he was leading when he left the game...Flutie wasn't able to bring them back.

[chernobylwraiths]

both ended with the same result. RJ did practically nothing in that game. Flutie made more mistakes in his game, but Miami wasn't a pushover defense though. Regardless whether RJ had the team in position to win, maybe if he wasn't so pitiful for most of the game he would have had more of a lead. Javon Kearse should give RJ a portion of all that money he made because that game was like his coming out party.

[Ebenezer]

but Miami wasn't a pushover defense though.

That Tenn defense did well enough to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl and almost win it all.

[TacklingDummy]

That Tenn defense did well enough to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl and almost win it all.

I firmly believe that was the Bills year. Until they screwed it up by starting that bum called Rob Johnson.

[Ebenezer]

I firmly believe that was the Bills year. Until they screwed it up by starting that bum called Rob Johnson.
yup...you're right. He should have made the tackle on Home-Run throwback...the *******.

[TacklingDummy]

yup...you're right. He should have made the tackle on Home-Run throwback...the *******.

There was another 59 minutes in that game. 59 mintues of RJ sucking.

[TedMock]

Did you miss the Bruce Matheson, Joe Dufek, Billie Joe Hobart, Todd Collins, Vince Ferrigamo, Kelly Holcomb and JP Losman years?

Not at all. These are some more of the worst performers to come through town. I actually liked Losman though. The others - not so much. Though I must concede that Losman blew his chances and it's time to go. I would (have, still do) lump RJ and Flutie right in this pile that you mention.

Like most, I have not been a big fan of any of our QB's since 1996. I support the guy playing, but that's been about it. I don't understand how ANYBODY could be a staunch supporter of any QB we've had since 1996. It really baffles me. Hopefully Edwards gives us something.

[chernobylwraiths]

Not at all. These are some more of the worst performers to come through town. I actually liked Losman though. The others - not so much. Though I must concede that Losman blew his chances and it's time to go. I would (have, still do) lump RJ and Flutie right in this pile that you mention.

Like most, I have not been a big fan of any of our QB's since 1996. I support the guy playing, but that's been about it. I don't understand how ANYBODY could be a staunch supporter of any QB we've had since 1996. It really baffles me. Hopefully Edwards gives us something.

The team won under Flutie more than it lost and went to the playoffs two straight years when he was the starting QB for most of the season. Haven't been back to the playoffs since. No, not all his doing, but QBs get the most praise or vitrol. He deserves some of both.

[The Jokeman]

The team won under Flutie more than it lost and went to the playoffs two straight years when he was the starting QB for most of the season. Haven't been back to the playoffs since. No, not all his doing, but QBs get the most praise or vitrol. He deserves some of both.
The problem is ingoing with Flutie is we were (pun intended) short sited. As to me even though we were winning with Flutie we were never going to win a Super Bowl. Of course now it's easy to say we probably wouldn't have won with RJ either now in retrospect but when consider he had a handful games of NFL experience when we benched him was that really enough to go on? As again RJ did QB to a win over San Francisco and if go back late collapse by the defense and Doug's inability to kill the clock against cost us another victory against the Rams. Yet people tend to forget these games because they weren't memorable as the Flutie bootleg to beat the Jaguars in the final seconds.

[TacklingDummy]

Every QB makes good plays and bad plays. DF made more good plays than he did bad ones. The problems with JP/RJ is that they made more bad plays than good plays. And they both can't read a defense and take unnecessary sacks.

[The Jokeman]

Every QB makes good plays and bad plays. DF made more good plays than he did bad ones. The problems with JP/RJ is that they made more bad plays than good plays. And they both can't read a defense and take unnecessary sacks.
True, that's why both had short term stints as starters but were best served as NFL backups.

[chernobylwraiths]

The problem is ingoing with Flutie is we were (pun intended) short sited. As to me even though we were winning with Flutie we were never going to win a Super Bowl. Of course now it's easy to say we probably wouldn't have won with RJ either now in retrospect but when consider he had a handful games of NFL experience when we benched him was that really enough to go on? As again RJ did QB to a win over San Francisco and if go back late collapse by the defense and Doug's inability to kill the clock against cost us another victory against the Rams. Yet people tend to forget these games because they weren't memorable as the Flutie bootleg to beat the Jaguars in the final seconds.

RJ was the starting QB until he got injured. Once he got injured, Flutie took over. The Bills were 1 and 3 after four games (If Steve Christie doesn't miss a chip shot, we are 2 and 2 beating San Diego with Flutie's help). RJ then got hurt against the Colts and was sidelined for several weeks. Flutie got the team on a roll and the Bills were winning so Phillips let him keep the starting job when Rob got better (whenever that was) You have to remember that RJ got knocked out of the SD game in the opener and then in the Rams game two weeks later and then got knocked out for good two weeks after that. Even when we got him he only had one start and got hurt and couldn't start in week two for the Jags. There were the first warning signs. I also like how you blame DF for the Rams loss when the defense couldn't stop the Rams offense in the second half. Plus, I just looked up DFs stats for that game and couldn't find any because he didn't throw once in that game. Let's not let our hatred get in the way now.

[The Jokeman]

RJ was the starting QB until he got injured. Once he got injured, Flutie took over. The Bills were 1 and 3 after four games (If Steve Christie doesn't miss a chip shot, we are 2 and 2 beating San Diego with Flutie's help). RJ then got hurt against the Colts and was sidelined for several weeks. Flutie got the team on a roll and the Bills were winning so Phillips let him keep the starting job when Rob got better (whenever that was) You have to remember that RJ got knocked out of the SD game in the opener and then in the Rams game two weeks later and then got knocked out for good two weeks after that. Even when we got him he only had one start and got hurt and couldn't start in week two for the Jags. There were the first warning signs. I also like how you blame DF for the Rams loss when the defense couldn't stop the Rams offense in the second half. Plus, I just looked up DFs stats for that game and couldn't find any because he didn't throw once in that game. Let's not let our hatred get in the way now.
Here's a link to the Rams game (http://www.canoe.ca/FootballNFL98Games/sep20_buf_stl.html)
Buffalo passing: Rob Johnson 18-28 for 231 yards, 1 INT, 3 TD, Doug
Flutie 0-2 for 0 yards, 0 INT, 0 TD.

Also from a CNNSI story about the game: (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/1998/09/20/rams_bills/#more)
Johnson got a mild concussion midway through the fourth quarter and didn't return for the final series. He left the first game of the season against San Diego with the same injury.

Blaming a guy for leaving because of a concussion is weak, but again had Flutie and the offense been able to kill the clock we would have won but I know it's the same old argument that Flutie just wins and someone else should take blame for the loss. As you're using the same argument to defend a loss vs San Deigo that "Flutie have should won" that I was using why "RJ should have won" against the Titans playoff game ie the special teams failed to make the play.

[chernobylwraiths]

Here's a link to the Rams game (http://www.canoe.ca/FootballNFL98Games/sep20_buf_stl.html)
Buffalo passing: Rob Johnson 18-28 for 231 yards, 1 INT, 3 TD, Doug
Flutie 0-2 for 0 yards, 0 INT, 0 TD.

Also from a
CNNSI story about the game: (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/1998/09/20/rams_bills/#more)

Blaming a guy for leaving because of a concussion is weak, but again had Flutie and the offense been able to kill the clock we would have won but I know it's the same old argument that Flutie just wins and someone else should take blame for the loss. As you're using the same argument to defend a loss vs San Deigo that "Flutie have should won" that I was using why "RJ should have won" against the Titans playoff game ie the special teams failed to make the play. Not to mention that was a Ram offense that was run by Tony Banks and Robert Holcomb, for those that thought our 1999 defense with Kurt Warner and Marshall Faulk think is a big falacy too.

So it is Flutie's fault that he had ONE series and is supposed to come in cold and get the offense that hadn't done anything all half and get them driving? Really? I never said we "should" have won the San Diego game, I said we could have won. Christie missed a 39 yard field goal with seconds left, but I guess they could have returned it for a TD and we still would have lost it. Plus, your saying that the Rams offense was run by Banks (which I was aware of) only means IMO that the Bills defense (which was number 1 at the end of the season) should have been able to stop them from scoring 34 points. RJ should have won that game and walked (or was carried) off the field with the lead, but they couldn't hold it.

[The Jokeman]

So it is Flutie's fault that he had ONE series and is supposed to come in cold and get the offense that hadn't done anything all half and get them driving? Really? I never said we "should" have won the San Diego game, I said we could have won. Christie missed a 39 yard field goal with seconds left, but I guess they could have returned it for a TD and we still would have lost it. Plus, your saying that the Rams offense was run by Banks (which I was aware of) only means IMO that the Bills defense (which was number 1 at the end of the season) should have been able to stop them from scoring 34 points. RJ should have won that game and walked (or was carried) off the field with the lead, but they couldn't hold it.
Again you're giving Doug credit for the win streak but the fact is RJ was pretty damn well when he got hurt and there's no telling that we wouldn't have done the same with him in there instead of Doug. My point on the Rams offense is an example of how some fans overvalued how good a team we had in those years as think the Rams would have killed us in a Super Bowl had we made it past the Titans et all with Doug at QB.

[TacklingDummy]

some fans overvalued how good a team we had in those years as think the Rams would have killed us in a Super Bowl had we made it past the Titans

I doubt it. That was the Bills year. Until they fu**ked it up.

[The Jokeman]

I doubt it. That was the Bills year. Until they fu**ked it up.
I disagree, we had the second worst offense of all the teams that made the playoffs.
Also if don't count RJ's win against the Colts, which most don't as claim Indy didn't "try to win" we were 3-2 against teams that made the playoffs, 2 of the wins came against Miami and the other against the Redskins. The losses were to Indy and Seattle.