Whitner vs Sanders Comparison of First 2-3 Seasons

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I'm sick and tired of reading all of the articles (C.Byrne and P.Moran) and posts that have become commonplace here denigrating the performance of Donte Whitner for the Bills the last two years. To read some of the stuff that has been written, you would think that Whitner has been an absolute bust who has been mediocre at best.

I know that a lot of Bills fans were upset that the team chose to pass on Haloti Ngata, who has made the Pro Bowl (what about Broderick Bunkley--how well has he played?), to select Whitner two years ago, but the criticism that has been leveled at Whitner by those who do not believe that Whitner has developed into the "difference-maker" that they believe that Ngata would have been for the Bills has, quite frankly, been unfair and unwarranted.

Whitner's critic love to point to the fact that Whitner has not put up the kind of statistics or generated the kind of turnovers that perennial All-Pro safety Ed Reed or NFL Defensive MVP Bob Sanders have. However, this ignores the fact that Whitner has played in a totally different defensive system and behind a grossly less talented front seven than Reed and that Whitner's numbers have been at least comparable to those of Sanders during the Indianapolis strong safety's first three years in the NFL.

Comparing Whitner's stats to those of Reed would be akin to comparing apples to oranges. While one can argue that Sanders, who replaced Mike Doss in the starting lineup, joined a Colts defense that was already better and more talented than the Bills defense was when Whitner first stepped on the field for the Bills, Whitner was drafted by the Bills to play the same position in a similar defensive system--to be the Bills' "Bob Sanders"--making a comparison of Whitner's performance for the Bills during his first two seasons comparable to Sanders' performance for the Colts during his first three seasons.

Bob Sanders: First Three Regular Seasons

<TABLE class="w655px datatablecell" cellSpacing=0 _extended="true"><TBODY _extended="true"><TR class=datatabledatahead _extended="true"><TD _extended="true">G</TD><TD _extended="true"> GS </TD><TD _extended="true">Total </TD><TD _extended="true">Solo</TD><TD _extended="true"> Ast</TD><TD _extended="true"> Sck</TD><TD _extended="true"> SFTY </TD><TD _extended="true">PDef</TD><TD _extended="true"> Int</TD><TD _extended="true"> Yds</TD><TD _extended="true"> Avg</TD><TD _extended="true"> Lng </TD><TD _extended="true"> TDs</TD><TD _extended="true"> FF</TD><TD _extended="true"> FR</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

6 4 34 29 5 0.0 0.0 1 0 0 0.0 0.0 0 0 2

14 14 91 71 20 0.0 0.0 2 1 0 0.0 0.0 0 1 1

4 4 27 19 8 0.0 0.0 1 0 0 0.0 0.0 0 1 0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
20 18 152 119 34 0 0 4 1 0 0 0 9 2 3


Donte Whiter: First Two Regular Seasons

<TABLE class="w655px datatablecell" cellSpacing=0 _extended="true"><TBODY _extended="true"><TR class=datatabledatahead _extended="true"><TD _extended="true">G</TD><TD _extended="true"> GS </TD><TD _extended="true">Total </TD><TD _extended="true">Solo</TD><TD _extended="true"> Ast</TD><TD _extended="true"> Sck</TD><TD _extended="true"> SFTY </TD><TD _extended="true">PDef</TD><TD _extended="true"> Int</TD><TD _extended="true"> Yds</TD><TD _extended="true"> Avg</TD><TD _extended="true"> Lng </TD><TD _extended="true"> TDs</TD><TD _extended="true"> FF</TD><TD _extended="true"> FR</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

15 14 104 67 37 0.0 0.0 4 1 10 10.0 10 0 0 0

15 15 89 68 21 0.0 0.0 1 1 29 29.0 29 0 0 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
30 29 193 135 58 0 0 5 2 39 19.5 29 0 0 0


As one can see, Whitner's stats are at least comparable, if not, in some areas, better than Sanders' stats, particularly considering that some of Sanders' tackles his first two seasons were made on special teams.

Whitner's critics often point to the fact that he has not had a lot of passes defensed or created many turnovers during his first two seasons with the Bills as evidence of the fact that he has not shown the ability to be the kind of play-maker that Sanders has become. Yet, comparing Whitner's first two seasons to Sanders' first three seasons, Whitner has one more pass defensed and just one fewer total turnovers generated (one more interception and two fewer forced fumbles).

These statistics do not take into account the fact that during his first two seasons with the Bills Whitner has not really been in a position to concentrate on "being a play-maker" on defense the way that Sanders and Reed have on the defenses that they have played on.

Because of the weakness of the Bills' run defense, Whitner has had to concentrate a great deal on playing in run support during his first two seasons with the Bills. The Bills' run defense has been so bad that, at times, Whitner has virtually had to be a fourth linebacker, which certainly has had a negative impact on his ability to be effective in pass coverage and make plays against the opposition's passing game.

As if that were not bad enough, much of the brunt of dealing with all of the injuries that the Bills suffered on defense, particularly to their back seven, fell on Whitner's shoulders. With injuries causing almost weekly turnovers in personnel, Whitner was forced to play at least some of the game out of position for much of the season. In addition to helping in run support, there were times when he had to shade his coverage to help the linebackers in coverage. At other times, due to injuries to the Bills cornerbacks and safeties, he was forced to play cornerback or cover wide receivers in the slot. As just a second year player, Whitner was called upon to be the stabilizing force in the middle of the Bills back seven on defense and, as such, spent more time serving as a "band-aid" to cover for his teammates than he was able to spend trying to be a disruptive "play-maker".

Additionally, what the stats do not show is the leadership that Whitner provided to the Bills off-the-field--something that the Bills stated was a critical factor in their decision to select Whitner when they drafted him. While many fans, particularly those obsessed by statistics, do not care about, let alone appreciate, leadership in the lockerroom or anything that happens off-the-field, leadership is what makes the difference between the more experienced, veteran-laden Bills team collapsed in 2005 and the way that the young Bills squad of 2007 responded to the adversity that they faced.

With the crushing early season defeats and injuries that they suffered, including the near-fatal injury to Kevin Everett, the 2007 Bills could very easily have collapsed as a team. However, as has been widely reported, in response to all of the injuries that the team had sustained on defense, Donte Whitner decided to invite his defensive mates to come over to his house on their off-day for "get-togethers" that were designed to be a combination study session and "bonding". These "get-togethers" became a regular, weekly occurence that more than one of Whitner's teammates later credited with helping the team to face and rebound from the injuries and adversity that plagued the team during the season.

That kind of leadership doesn't show up in any stat columns, but is essential to the building of a winning team in any sport, but especially football. And, it should be taken into consideration in assessing Donte Whitner's performance and contribution to the Bills during his first two seasons with the team.

Considering how close Whitner's stats during his first two seasons have been to Bob Sanders' stats during his first three seasons, even if you don't take into consideration Whitner's leadership or the injuries and other circumstances that have impacted Whitner's play since joining the Bills, it is hard to comprehend how anyone willing to make a fair assessment can conclude that Whitner has been anything less than precisely the kind of player expected him to be when they decided to use the eighth pick in the draft to select him two years ago.

So say that Whitner has been mediocre or that he will never become the kind of player that Bob Sanders has been simply ignores the evidence: in his two seasons, Whitner has given the Bills more and been every bit the player that Sanders was for Indianapolis during his first three seasons. And, hopefully, Whitner will continue to match--and perhaps even exceed--Sanders' play as his career moves forward.

[Mr. Miyagi]

I agree. Michael Huff was picked before Whitner. How's he doing? :rolleyes:

[John Doe]

Around here, if a player is not performing at an all-star level by the middle of his rookie season, he qualifies as a "bust."

[gr8slayer]

Whitner leaves a lot to be desired and any criticism is warranted. This will be his third year and he like all rookies get three years before they get the bust label. He needs to step it up.

[RoanokeVABillsFan]

Good Post! The best is yet to come. He's going into his 3rd year with all this experience. He works hard and will keep improving. The impact plays will come as the team gets better in front of him. Everyone points out how our DE's, DT's and LB's don't get enough sacks and pressures on the QB. Look at what they're saying about Samuels now. He's a risk taker and will get exposed when he doesn't have all the NE front 7 pressure that he has now. While I don't agree with that, I think Samuels is a really good CB, it just goes to show that the front 7 is key in allowing the DB's to make plays and we clearly don't have enough of it right now.

[raphael120]

I dont think it's so much Whitner's problem as much as it was the foolishness of choosing him as the 8th overall. We couldve traded down, or gotten better value for that pick. Im sure he'll turn out to be solid, but worthy of an 8th pick? I dunno...

[OpIv37]

Whitner missed a tackle on McGahee that led to a touchdown- so much for concentrating on the run. That wasn't his only error in run D but it was the most glaring.

And I love how you blame the D for Whitner not making plays. All we ever hear about is how it's the system's fault or a coach's fault or another player's fault- why is it that no player is ever expected to take responsibility for his own play.

The truth is that we could do worse than Whitner, but he has not had the impact that a #8 overall pick should. But hey- he was Marv's pick so we're not allowed to knock him, even though Marv isn't even here anymore.

[OpIv37]

I agree. Michael Huff was picked before Whitner. How's he doing? :rolleyes:

Huff's performance is irrelevant. We wouldn't have been better off with Huff- that's true, but so what? Whitner is still expected to perform and he's been very average. What Huff does or doesn't do for some other team won't change that fact.

[EDS]

When Whitner's impact starts to approach the impact Sanders has on a game then I think it will be fair to do a comparison of the two. Before that happens, however, all the stats in the world cannot erase the simple fact that Whitner has, to date, not had a meaningful impact on the Bills defense.

Whitner is talented, but when watching the games I keep getting the feeling that the Bills should reconsider how they use him, since for all his speed, he is not a great center fielder.

[X-Era]

I'm sick and tired of reading all of the articles (C.Byrne and P.Moran) and posts that have become commonplace here denigrating the performance of Donte Whitner for the Bills the last two years. To read some of the stuff that has been written, you would think that Whitner has been an absolute bust who has been mediocre at best.

I know that a lot of Bills fans were upset that the team chose to pass on Haloti Ngata, who has made the Pro Bowl (what about Broderick Bunkley--how well has he played?), to select Whitner two years ago, but the criticism that has been leveled at Whitner by those who do not believe that Whitner has developed into the "difference-maker" that they believe that Ngata would have been for the Bills has, quite frankly, been unfair and unwarranted.

Whitner's critic love to point to the fact that Whitner has not put up the kind of statistics or generated the kind of turnovers that perennial All-Pro safety Ed Reed or NFL Defensive MVP Bob Sanders have. However, this ignores the fact that Whitner has played in a totally different defensive system and behind a grossly less talented front seven than Reed and that Whitner's numbers have been at least comparable to those of Sanders during the Indianapolis strong safety's first three years in the NFL.

Comparing Whitner's stats to those of Reed would be akin to comparing apples to oranges. While one can argue that Sanders, who replaced Mike Doss in the starting lineup, joined a Colts defense that was already better and more talented than the Bills defense was when Whitner first stepped on the field for the Bills, Whitner was drafted by the Bills to play the same position in a similar defensive system--to be the Bills' "Bob Sanders"--making a comparison of Whitner's performance for the Bills during his first two seasons comparable to Sanders' performance for the Colts during his first three seasons.

Bob Sanders: First Three Regular Seasons

<table class="w655px datatablecell" _extended="true" cellspacing="0"><tbody _extended="true"><tr class="datatabledatahead" _extended="true"><td _extended="true">G</td><td _extended="true"> GS </td><td _extended="true">Total </td><td _extended="true">Solo</td><td _extended="true"> Ast</td><td _extended="true"> Sck</td><td _extended="true"> SFTY </td><td _extended="true">PDef</td><td _extended="true"> Int</td><td _extended="true"> Yds</td><td _extended="true"> Avg</td><td _extended="true"> Lng </td><td _extended="true"> TDs</td><td _extended="true"> FF</td><td _extended="true"> FR</td></tr></tbody></table>

6 4 34 29 5 0.0 0.0 1 0 0 0.0 0.0 0 0 2

14 14 91 71 20 0.0 0.0 2 1 0 0.0 0.0 0 1 1

4 4 27 19 8 0.0 0.0 1 0 0 0.0 0.0 0 1 0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
20 18 152 119 34 0 0 4 1 0 0 0 9 2 3


Donte Whiter: First Two Regular Seasons

<table class="w655px datatablecell" _extended="true" cellspacing="0"><tbody _extended="true"><tr class="datatabledatahead" _extended="true"><td _extended="true">G</td><td _extended="true"> GS </td><td _extended="true">Total </td><td _extended="true">Solo</td><td _extended="true"> Ast</td><td _extended="true"> Sck</td><td _extended="true"> SFTY </td><td _extended="true">PDef</td><td _extended="true"> Int</td><td _extended="true"> Yds</td><td _extended="true"> Avg</td><td _extended="true"> Lng </td><td _extended="true"> TDs</td><td _extended="true"> FF</td><td _extended="true"> FR</td></tr></tbody></table>

15 14 104 67 37 0.0 0.0 4 1 10 10.0 10 0 0 0

15 15 89 68 21 0.0 0.0 1 1 29 29.0 29 0 0 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
30 29 193 135 58 0 0 5 2 39 19.5 29 0 0 0


As one can see, Whitner's stats are at least comparable, if not, in some areas, better than Sanders' stats, particularly considering that some of Sanders' tackles his first two seasons were made on special teams.

Whitner's critics often point to the fact that he has not had a lot of passes defensed or created many turnovers during his first two seasons with the Bills as evidence of the fact that he has not shown the ability to be the kind of play-maker that Sanders has become. Yet, comparing Whitner's first two seasons to Sanders' first three seasons, Whitner has one more pass defensed and just one fewer total turnovers generated (one more interception and two fewer forced fumbles).

These statistics do not take into account the fact that during his first two seasons with the Bills Whitner has not really been in a position to concentrate on "being a play-maker" on defense the way that Sanders and Reed have on the defenses that they have played on.

Because of the weakness of the Bills' run defense, Whitner has had to concentrate a great deal on playing in run support during his first two seasons with the Bills. The Bills' run defense has been so bad that, at times, Whitner has virtually had to be a fourth linebacker, which certainly has had a negative impact on his ability to be effective in pass coverage and make plays against the opposition's passing game.

As if that were not bad enough, much of the brunt of dealing with all of the injuries that the Bills suffered on defense, particularly to their back seven, fell on Whitner's shoulders. With injuries causing almost weekly turnovers in personnel, Whitner was forced to play at least some of the game out of position for much of the season. In addition to helping in run support, there were times when he had to shade his coverage to help the linebackers in coverage. At other times, due to injuries to the Bills cornerbacks and safeties, he was forced to play cornerback or cover wide receivers in the slot. As just a second year player, Whitner was called upon to be the stabilizing force in the middle of the Bills back seven on defense and, as such, spent more time serving as a "band-aid" to cover for his teammates than he was able to spend trying to be a disruptive "play-maker".

Additionally, what the stats do not show is the leadership that Whitner provided to the Bills off-the-field--something that the Bills stated was a critical factor in their decision to select Whitner when they drafted him. While many fans, particularly those obsessed by statistics, do not care about, let alone appreciate, leadership in the lockerroom or anything that happens off-the-field, leadership is what makes the difference between the more experienced, veteran-laden Bills team collapsed in 2005 and the way that the young Bills squad of 2007 responded to the adversity that they faced.

With the crushing early season defeats and injuries that they suffered, including the near-fatal injury to Kevin Everett, the 2007 Bills could very easily have collapsed as a team. However, as has been widely reported, in response to all of the injuries that the team had sustained on defense, Donte Whitner decided to invite his defensive mates to come over to his house on their off-day for "get-togethers" that were designed to be a combination study session and "bonding". These "get-togethers" became a regular, weekly occurence that more than one of Whitner's teammates later credited with helping the team to face and rebound from the injuries and adversity that plagued the team during the season.

That kind of leadership doesn't show up in any stat columns, but is essential to the building of a winning team in any sport, but especially football. And, it should be taken into consideration in assessing Donte Whitner's performance and contribution to the Bills during his first two seasons with the team.

Considering how close Whitner's stats during his first two seasons have been to Bob Sanders' stats during his first three seasons, even if you don't take into consideration Whitner's leadership or the injuries and other circumstances that have impacted Whitner's play since joining the Bills, it is hard to comprehend how anyone willing to make a fair assessment can conclude that Whitner has been anything less than precisely the kind of player expected him to be when they decided to use the eighth pick in the draft to select him two years ago.

So say that Whitner has been mediocre or that he will never become the kind of player that Bob Sanders has been simply ignores the evidence: in his two seasons, Whitner has given the Bills more and been every bit the player that Sanders was for Indianapolis during his first three seasons. And, hopefully, Whitner will continue to match--and perhaps even exceed--Sanders' play as his career moves forward.

I think its a case of needing a scapeqoat, Whitner is a helluva S IMO

[OpIv37]

I think its a case of needing a scapeqoat, Whitner is a helluva S IMO

I think you're dead wrong- this is a case of defending an underperforming player.

Why would we need a scapegoat when so many players played poorly?

[PECKERWOOD]

Yeah, Whitner sucks. Let's move him out to CB. </sarcasm>

[OpIv37]

Yeah, Whitner sucks. Let's move him out to CB. </sarcasm>

I wouldn't say he sucks- he's still the best safety on our roster. My problem with him is that he hasn't met expectations and so far his production has been a poor return on investment for the #8 pick we used on him.

[gr8slayer]

Yeah, Whitner sucks. Let's move him out to CB. </sarcasm>
Good idea :up:

[OpIv37]

and for the record, when I say Bills fans accept mediocrity, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Rather than calling Whitner out for not living up to expectations, people defend his lackluster performance and write novels about why it's everyone's fault but his.

[gr8slayer]

and for the record, when I say Bills fans accept mediocrity, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Rather than calling Whitner out for not living up to expectations, people defend his lackluster performance and write novels about why it's everyone's fault but his.
Yup, it's a common issue on this board. Everyone's satisfied with mediocrity.

[Dr. Lecter]

Yup, it's a common issue on this board. Everyone's satisfied with mediocrity.

Bull****.

That continues to be the dumbest ****ing thing said on these boards.

Did you or Op actually read the post?

Or is Bob Sanders mediocre too?

Really. Read the breakdown.

Excellent work LTBF. As usual.

[Dr. Lecter]

and for the record, when I say Bills fans accept mediocrity, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Rather than calling Whitner out for not living up to expectations, people defend his lackluster performance and write novels about why it's everyone's fault but his.

That is not what he wrote.

Read the damn article.

[gr8slayer]

Bull****.

That continues to be the dumbest ****ing thing said on these boards.

Did you or Op actually read the post?

Or is Bob Sanders mediocre too?

Really. Read the breakdown.

Excellent work LTBF. As usual.
I've read the excuses in the article. No offense to LTBF (I have nothing but respect for the guy and he's by far our best writer) but statistics don't mean much. Sanders is a game changer, Whitner is not. When Sanders is healthy the Colts are a force, when he's not they are screwed. With Whitner healthy we are still screwed.

BTW, people here are satisfied with mediocrity. The whole "who cares if we win as long as we have a team" mentality is just ridiculous.

[Dr. Lecter]

If the Colts defense was missing 5 contrbutors (like the Bills defense was last year), they would not look good either.

Take Whitner out of this defense and it is much worse.

[Dr. Lecter]

BTW, people here are satisfied with mediocrity. The whole "who cares if we win as long as we have a team" mentality is just ridiculous.

Nobody says that.

[gr8slayer]

If the Colts defense was missing 5 contrbutors (like the Bills defense was last year), they would not look good either.

Take Whitner out of this defense and it is much worse.
So you're saying that we would be 32nd in total defense instead of 31st? I feel so much better about Whitner now.

BTW, the Colts were missing their share of contributors.

[OpIv37]

Bull****.

That continues to be the dumbest ****ing thing said on these boards.

Did you or Op actually read the post?

Or is Bob Sanders mediocre too?

Really. Read the breakdown.

Excellent work LTBF. As usual.

The problem is that Bob Sanders' stat line continues beyond that. Whitner's doesn't.

How many safeties had those stat lines their first two years and turned out to be mediocre or worse? I'll give you a clue: a hell of a lot more than the ones who turned out to be as good as Bob Sanders.

It's a ridiculous comparison.

Sanders was also a #44 overall pick going into 04, and in case you don't remember, the Colts were good in 04. Whitner was a #8 overall pick and the Bills needed immediate help, so the expectations are completely different. We have plenty of mediocrity to go around and so far, all Whitner's done is add to it.

[OpIv37]

That is not what he wrote.

Read the damn article.


I think you need to read the damn article:


These statistics do not take into account the fact that during his first two seasons with the Bills Whitner has not really been in a position to concentrate on "being a play-maker" on defense the way that Sanders and Reed have on the defenses that they have played on.

Because of the weakness of the Bills' run defense, Whitner has had to concentrate a great deal on playing in run support during his first two seasons with the Bills. The Bills' run defense has been so bad that, at times, Whitner has virtually had to be a fourth linebacker, which certainly has had a negative impact on his ability to be effective in pass coverage and make plays against the opposition's passing game.

As if that were not bad enough, much of the brunt of dealing with all of the injuries that the Bills suffered on defense, particularly to their back seven, fell on Whitner's shoulders. With injuries causing almost weekly turnovers in personnel, Whitner was forced to play at least some of the game out of position for much of the season. In addition to helping in run support, there were times when he had to shade his coverage to help the linebackers in coverage. At other times, due to injuries to the Bills cornerbacks and safeties, he was forced to play cornerback or cover wide receivers in the slot. As just a second year player, Whitner was called upon to be the stabilizing force in the middle of the Bills back seven on defense and, as such, spent more time serving as a "band-aid" to cover for his teammates than he was able to spend trying to be a disruptive "play-maker".

In just those paragraphs, he blames the system ("not put in a position to make plays"), the injuries and the need to play run D (which Whitner did poorly- everyone remembers the few big plays he made and forgets the dozens he missed).

And then LTBF goes on to talk about leadership off the field- wow, he led us to 7-9. Consider me less than impressed. What good is it if it doesn't lead to wins? Everyone talks about the injuries and Everrett and the youth and how we did well considering the circumstances. But you know what? In the NFL record book, there's no asterisk denoting the "circumstances". It's just another year of mediocrity.

[jmb1099]

You can't have it both ways. If the dline is as bad as everyone says it is (and it was) then it would naturally have an effect on how the backfield has to play in order to compensate. We could pull post after post about how awful everyone thought the front did stopping the run and pressuring the qb. If you can't stop the run, and you don't pressure the qb, the result of the equation is simple really. Football 101. Make the saftey's cheat up to help support the run then hit the pass downfield once they do. Until we get a formidable dline we'll continue to see this happen. Its not excuse, its reality.

[OpIv37]

Take Whitner out of this defense and it is much worse.

well, it can't get much worse, although your statement is generally true.

The problem is that being the best S on the Bills right now isn't much of an accomplishment- it's like being the smartest window licker on the short bus :shortbus:

[OpIv37]

You can't have it both ways. If the dline is as bad as everyone says it is (and it was) then it would naturally have an effect on how the backfield has to play in order to compensate. We could pull post after post about how awful everyone thought the front did stopping the run and pressuring the qb. If you can't stop the run, and you don't pressure the qb, the result of the equation is simple really. Football 101. Make the saftey's cheat up to help support the run then hit the pass downfield once they do. Until we get a formidable dline we'll continue to see this happen. Its not excuse, its reality.

you can't have it both ways either- the run D sucked, too- so you can't defend Whitner's performance by saying he was helping the run D. Either he was bad at pass D, or he sacrificed pass D to be bad at run D- take your pick.

[justasportsfan]

I'm happy with Whitner. If he didn't have to keep coming to theLOS to support the Dl, he'd could make more plays in the backfield.

[gr8slayer]

I'm happy with Whitner. If he didn't have to keep coming to theLOS to support the Dl, he'd could make more plays in the backfield.
Polamalu and Sanders play around the line often and it doesn't hurt their play.

[colin]

gr8, op,

you guys have been pretty far off (in terms of numbers of wins, what the front office is doing, the quality of our players) on the negative side a few times before, don't you think you just might be keeping that up a bit too much by bashing a player that most people who rate players in the nfl thinks is a very solid young guy with a bright future?

[gr8slayer]

gr8, op,

you guys have been pretty far off (in terms of numbers of wins, what the front office is doing, the quality of our players) on the negative side a few times before, don't you think you just might be keeping that up a bit too much by bashing a player that most people who rate players in the nfl thinks is a very solid young guy with a bright future?
:link:

[OpIv37]

gr8, op,

you guys have been pretty far off (in terms of numbers of wins, what the front office is doing, the quality of our players) on the negative side a few times before, don't you think you just might be keeping that up a bit too much by bashing a player that most people who rate players in the nfl thinks is a very solid young guy with a bright future?

he may have a bright future.

So far, he's been less than impressive and he hasn't lived up to expectations.

BTW I don't know why you're saying I've been far off. In '05 I knew we'd tank- I said it early and took a lot of heat for it. In '06 I predicted 6-10 and we were 7-9. In '07 I said we'd be lucky to equal last year's 7-9 and we ended up right at 7-9. So I've been wrong about some players and wrong about some specific games, but overall I've been a lot more accurate than most of the homers around here.

[Dr. Lecter]

In just those paragraphs, he blames the system ("not put in a position to make plays"), the injuries and the need to play run D (which Whitner did poorly- everyone remembers the few big plays he made and forgets the dozens he missed).

And then LTBF goes on to talk about leadership off the field- wow, he led us to 7-9. Consider me less than impressed. What good is it if it doesn't lead to wins? Everyone talks about the injuries and Everrett and the youth and how we did well considering the circumstances. But you know what? In the NFL record book, there's no asterisk denoting the "circumstances". It's just another year of mediocrity.

If you think playing next to Wilson and Leonard had no impact on Whitner's season, I really don't know what to say. Or if the problems at CB, that made him more responsible for coverage, did not effect him I can't think of another way to explain the realities (not excuses) of the past season. Or if you don't see that his is not put into position to make those "big plays" that are lacking.

As for leadership, yeah there is not asterisk. No doubt. But, once again, reality is the team very easy could have not even been competitive and the unity they showed throughout the season should be undeniable.

As for people forgetting the bad plays, we have you who remembers none of the good ones and obsess over a missed tackle against Willis.

[jmb1099]

you can't have it both ways either- the run D sucked, too- so you can't defend Whitner's performance by saying he was helping the run D. Either he was bad at pass D, or he sacrificed pass D to be bad at run D- take your pick.

I hear what you're saying, but its not having it both ways. Anytime you're counting on your safety to be your primary run stopper you're in trouble. Sanders is not the Colts primary run stopper and towards the end of the year when he needed to be what happened? Injured and ineffective.

Safeties are not built or meant to take on 300 lb linemen. Yes they can be a run "support", but the key word is support.

I'm not saying he played like a super star, but Whitner didn't suck up the place either.

[justasportsfan]

Polamalu and Sanders play around the line often and it doesn't hurt their play.
they have better DL than we do. I mean cmon, you can't compare DL's with Pitts. Plus they have LeBeau who I think is one hell of a DC. (hoped we kept him instead of Gray)Not gonna compare Whitner to Troy just yet . Troy has a few years on Whitner. Let's see what Whitner can do in a couple of years from now when he's grasped the nfl better with a better DL in front of him.

[jmb1099]

Polamalu and Sanders play around the line often and it doesn't hurt their play.

It did hurt Sanders play. When the colts primary run stuffers were out and Sanders was called upon to take a more active role up front he wound up injured and unable to perform to a high level when he was needed the most. The size difference is simply too much to overcome play after play.

[OpIv37]

If you think playing next to Wilson and Leonard had no impact on Whitner's season, I really don't know what to say. Or if the problems at CB, that made him more responsible for coverage, did not effect him I can't think of another way to explain the realities (not excuses) of the past season. Or if you don't see that his is not put into position to make those "big plays" that are lacking.

As for leadership, yeah there is not asterisk. No doubt. But, once again, reality is the team very easy could have not even been competitive and the unity they showed throughout the season should be undeniable.

As for people forgetting the bad plays, we have you who remembers none of the good ones and obsess over a missed tackle against Willis.


So, you're saying that if Whitner was surrounded by good CB's and good safeties and had a good run D, he'd look a lot better? ie' he's only as good as the people around him.

Good players make plays in the situation they're in. Period.

[OpIv37]

I'm not saying he played like a super star, but Whitner didn't suck up the place either.

I agree with that- I think he's definitely the best S on the team- he just hasn't lived up to expectations. We really need a playmaker on D and so far Whitner hasn't done that.

[jmb1099]

I agree with that- I think he's definitely the best S on the team- he just hasn't lived up to expectations. We really need a playmaker on D and so far Whitner hasn't done that.
Agreed. That being said, I'm not convinced he has been able to be that playmaker given the circumstances and realities of the defense. Once we shore up the line I think we will have a definitive answer to who Whitner is.

[Tatonka]

Yup, it's a common issue on this board. Everyone's satisfied with mediocrity.

so you want bryant johnson.. the poster boy for mediocrity.

[gr8slayer]

so you want bryant johnson.. the poster boy for mediocrity.
I want Bryant Johnson? Hardly....

[kernowboy]

I think the issue of Whitner is how high he got taken ....

but when you look at the guys who were drafted below him, can you say that many of them have actually stood out?

My personal preference was for Haloti Nagata.

Cromartie has excelled but how many were interested after his ACL. It was a gamble by AJ Smith that paid off.

We didn't need Maroney at the time, and who would have thought of taking Nick Mangold or DeMeco Ryans with the No8 pick?

Whitner has been a solid not a star player, but it could have been a lot worse considering how some of the other first rounders have failed to meet expectations.

[YardRat]

Can somebody point out a few specific instances where Bob Sanders personally 'changed' or 'took over' a game?

As far as 'expectations', if you're dismissing the complete picture and circumstances when evaluating an individual player, then you're missing the concept of 'team' right off of the bat anyway and should probably stick to evaluating tennis players or golfers.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I wouldn't say he sucks- he's still the best safety on our roster. My problem with him is that he hasn't met expectations and so far his production has been a poor return on investment for the #8 pick we used on him.

Expectations? Whose expectations are we talking about? Yours?

And, what are those expectations exactly? Are or have they been realistic?

Just because a player was taken with the # 8 pick in the draft, you cannot expect him to step in and perform like an All-Pro as a rookie or even in his second season--especially when he has been largely surrounded by rookies and second-stringers for those two years. What, you expect him to do it all...by himself..with no learning curve? Get real!

His rookie season he was playing with another rookie safety in a defensive system that the entire team was playing for the first time and still learning. In his second season, he ended up playing most of the season next to a converted WR and a 3rd stringer at the other safety position, with a rookie and then a second-year back-up starting at MLB, and new players being shuffled into the defense virtually every week and ended up having to play CB and the nickle-back positions in more than a few games because of injuries to the CBs.

Now, you can call all of that an excuse, but what do you expect the guy to be--Superman? How the heck is he supposed to concentrate on doing his own job when he is being called on to help everyone else around him do theirs? How was he supposed to learn what his own job was correctly? Try doing that sometime at a new job and tell me--honestly--that you would be performing at an "All-Pro" level at your own job (no overtime to help you catch up, either!).

And, how is he supposed to be the play-maker that you expect him to be when the team, by its own admission, was no running schemes that would allow him to be in a position to make the kind of decisive plays that you expect him to make? If you just read the articles in the Buffalo News and Rochester Democrat and Chronicle that appear on the BZ front page, you would know that Perry Fewell admitted on more than one occasion during each of the past two seasons, particularly last season (because they were bringing in new players almost weekly), that he was so concerned about Bills players not knowing the schemes that he felt that he had to play "vanilla" and intentionally limited the defensive packages that he ran in many of the games that the team played. When a team does that, it isn't hard for the opposition to figure out what they are doing (or not doing as well) and that automatically places the defenders at a disadvantage.

Again, you can call that an excuse--and I expect that you will. But, if you are going to fairly assess a player's performance, it is foolish not to take all of the factors impacting his performance into account.

Compare Whitner's situation to that of Reed, Sanders and Polamalu: all three of those players stepped into the starting lineup in defenses that were already significantly better than the Bills defense has been the last two seasons. Ed Reed has been playing with T.Suggs, R.Lewis, C.McAllister, etc. Polamalu stepped into a Pittsburgh defense that was already SB quality. Sanders stepped in for Mike Doss in an Indy defense that had already been playing Tony Dungy's Tampa 2 defense for some time. And, not one of these strong safeties has ever been called upon to play CB or serve as their team's nickle-back--not even Reed when his team's CBs were ravaged by injuries the way the Bills' CB corps was last season.

And, how about how Indy's defense performed when it had a lot of injuries on defense? As I recall, they were ranked 32nd and dead last in the NFL in run defense and Sanders ended up getting hurt (the Indy defense was not able to stop the run until the playoffs when they also had their starting MLB and DTs and CBs healthy to support Sanders). Now, it is true that the Bills didn't do a whole lot better than that last season, but at least Whitner managed to stay on the field until the last game. And, what about Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu? It seems to me that both of them had "off" years when their teammates suffered a lot of injuries and that they got hurt and missed time those seasons, too.

You say that Whitner hasn't been a "difference maker" for the Bills. In what regard? He has had just one less turnover generated in two years than Sanders had in three years. Sanders is no better in pass coverage--and one can argue worse. Oh, I know, he doesn't make big hits on the opposition...that's it, you want a guy who is intimidating (ask Chad Johnson and the Cincy WRs if they were intimidated by Whitner after he decked "Ocho Cinq-o"), not necessarily a guy who just does everything that the team has asked of him.

I'm not making excuses for Whitner.

My point is that this is a player who has stepped in and done everything that the Bills have asked him to do as well as could be expected from a player in his first two seasons under difficult circumstances. My point is that, if given a chance by the fans, like you, who have placed unrealistic expectations on him, this is a player who can perform at a very high level in a defense that is able to run its system properly--which will give him a chance to make plays and be the kind of "difference maker" that no player can be reasonably expected to be (and that even Sanders was not!) when the team is unable to run its system to the fullest.

I do not evaluate a player based on where he was taken in a draft: I don't expect a player taken at # 8 to be a certain amount better than a player taken at # 18, etc. and complain if he does not perform up to his "draft status" because there are reasons that a player may be taken in the first round rather than the second that have nothing to do with sheer ability--for example, some years, one position may be so much thinner than another position that a team may have to take a player at the first position higher than at the second position in order to get the same quality of player at both positions, etc. What I look to see is if the player is a standout at his position and is able to do everything that the team asks of him. With Whitner making the All-Rookie team and garnering notice as an "up-and-coming" player, he has accomplished both of those things.

As for Whitner living up to the expectations of being the # 8 pick in the draft, again, I ask: whose expectations? I think that, if you asked the Bills coaches and front office--even in their most candid and honest moments--they would tell you that Whitner has lived up to their expectations so far. I also believe that they would tell you that they expect him to do even more in the not-too-distant future, starting with this season. And, so do I.

I believe that if you fairly evaluate Whitner's performance--and that means taking ALL factors into consideration--you would have to come to the same conclusion.


I dont think it's so much Whitner's problem as much as it was the foolishness of choosing him as the 8th overall. We couldve traded down, or gotten better value for that pick. Im sure he'll turn out to be solid, but worthy of an 8th pick? I dunno...

Geez, I wish you guys would take the time to read and maybe do some "homework" before posting stuff like this!

There was ample evidence published--and summarized in an article that I wrote for the BZ front page, that probably is still in the archives or that can be Googled, shortly after Whitner was drafted--that pointed out that there were several teams, including St.Louis and Baltimore, that were very interested in selecting Whitner if the Bills had not taken him with the 8th pick or had traded down out of that pick.

If the Bills had used that pick on another player at a different position, the next highest rated Tampa 2 SS in the draft was D.Bullocks, who was selected one pick before the Bills would have picked in the second round had they not traded up to take McCargo. The Bills would have had to trade up to get Bullocks had they passed on Whitner because they had to come out of the first two rounds of that draft with a DT and a SS in order to be able to run the Tampa 2 defense that they had decided to install. At the time, the Bills had only three DTs: Anderson, Tripplett and Jefferson on their roster and Bowen was their only SS--and you have to know that they were not going to go into the season with only those guys at those positions.

I can only imagine what the comments on this board would have been had the Bills taken Broderick Bunkley--the DT that everyone thought was the best fit in a T-2 defense--and traded up to get Daniel Bullocks in that draft! (For those who might counter by saying that the Bills could have taken Jason Allen, let me remind you that Allen was rated more as a CB/FS than a SS and had had injury issues while in college, making him a much riskier pick than Whitner. And, how great has Allen proven to be?)

The only argument against the Whitner pick that holds ANY water is that the Bills could have chosen to take Haloti Ngata instead. But, had they done so, they still would have had to trade up to get Bullocks. Given John McCargo's injury that cost him his rookie season and the way that the Bills have under-used McCargo, one can make the argument that Ngata-Bullocks would have been a better DT-SS combination that Whitner-McCargo. But, rightly or wrongly, the Bills did not feel that Ngata would be a good fit in their Tampa 2 defense--and we don't know how well he would have performed in the Bills' system had they taken him--and, making that assessment, they pretty much had to go the way that they did (keep in mind that Wroten, the next highest rated/drafted DT on the board had serious character issues and has been pretty much a bust for St.Louis). Now, that may prove to have been a mistake, but I would argue that it is still too early to make that call because it really takes three full season before you can assess how good a draft pick really was (remember, Mike Williams looked pretty good as a rookie, but failed to continue to improve and step up his game to the level it should have been at down the road).

You can argue all you want about whether the Bills should have decided to install a Tampa 2 defense or not (a defense that has produced SB winners and finalists in recent years and that allowed them to "ease" certain unwanted, out-spoken veterans out of town with minimal disruption to the lockerroom). But, that's not going to change the fact that that is what the Bills FO and coaching staff decided to do. And, having made that decision--for whatever reasons--there were certain things that they, then, had to do in order to run that defense that limited what their options were in that draft.

And my point is, again, that, to this point, Whitner has done everything that the Bills have asked him to do and that he could reasonably have been expected to do--by them and by their fans--during his first two years in the league. Now, obviously, he will have to continue to not ony do those things, but continue to step up his game even more to become the kind of player that we all want him to be--but, we will only know if he can do that going forward. And, it is my point that, statistically at least, he has shown every evidence that he is on the right path to do that.

BTW: St.Louis, which was looking to replace A.Archuleta, traded out of it's spot immediately after the Bills selected Whitner and ended up selecting a CB later in the first round rather than Bullocks and starting a converted LB at SS as a result. A.Bethea, who has primarily played FS for Indy, was selected much later in that draft and has done very well, but he was not very highly rated going into that draft and could not have been counted on to fill the Bills' need at SS, even if they had had a "crystal ball" and taken him instead of Whitner in that draft.

[EDS]

I still think Whitner needs to work on taking better angles in pass coverage, at the very least, before he is considered anything close to a top safety. He has Carnell Lake type of potential but has a way to go before he hits that level.

[Bulldog]

I've read the excuses in the article. No offense to LTBF (I have nothing but respect for the guy and he's by far our best writer) but statistics don't mean much. Sanders is a game changer, Whitner is not. When Sanders is healthy the Colts are a force, when he's not they are screwed. With Whitner healthy we are still screwed.

BTW, people here are satisfied with mediocrity. The whole "who cares if we win as long as we have a team" mentality is just ridiculous.

How can you compare the two defenses(Colts & Bills) and base their collective success on one person? There are so many other variables(mainly pass rush) that it's nearly impossible. I honestly think if you swap Whitner and Sanders that there isn't much of a difference in either defense.

[gr8slayer]

How can you compare the two defenses(Colts & Bills) and base their collective success on one person? There are so many other variables(mainly pass rush) that it's nearly impossible. I honestly think if you swap Whitner and Sanders that there isn't much of a difference in either defense.
Go back to their SB year and look at the Colts defense without Sanders and look at the defense with him. It's AMAZING, the guy is a difference maker.

[justasportsfan]

Expectations? Whose expectations are we talking about? Yours?

And, what are those expectations exactly? Are or have they been realistic?

Just because a player was taken with the # 8 pick in the draft, you cannot expect him to step in and perform like an All-Pro as a rookie or even in his second season--especially when he has been largely surrounded by rookies and second-stringers for those two years. What, you expect him to do it all...by himself..with no learning curve? Get real!

His rookie season he was playing with another rookie safety in a defensive system that the entire team was playing for the first time and still learning. In his second season, he ended up playing most of the season next to a converted WR and a 3rd stringer at the other safety position, with a rookie and then a second-year back-up starting at MLB, and new players being shuffled into the defense virtually every week and ended up having to play CB and the nickle-back positions in more than a few games because of injuries to the CBs.

Now, you can call all of that an excuse, but what do you expect the guy to be--Superman? How the heck is he supposed to concentrate on doing his own job when he is being called on to help everyone else around him do theirs? How was he supposed to learn what his own job was correctly? Try doing that sometime at a new job and tell me--honestly--that you would be performing at an "All-Pro" level at your own job (no overtime to help you catch up, either!).

And, how is he supposed to be the play-maker that you expect him to be when the team, by its own admission, was no running schemes that would allow him to be in a position to make the kind of decisive plays that you expect him to make? If you just read the articles in the Buffalo News and Rochester Democrat and Chronicle that appear on the BZ front page, you would know that Perry Fewell admitted on more than one occasion during each of the past two seasons, particularly last season (because they were bringing in new players almost weekly), that he was so concerned about Bills players not knowing the schemes that he felt that he had to play "vanilla" and intentionally limited the defensive packages that he ran in many of the games that the team played. When a team does that, it isn't hard for the opposition to figure out what they are doing (or not doing as well) and that automatically places the defenders at a disadvantage.

Again, you can call that an excuse--and I expect that you will. But, if you are going to fairly assess a player's performance, it is foolish not to take all of the factors impacting his performance into account.

Compare Whitner's situation to that of Reed, Sanders and Polamalu: all three of those players stepped into the starting lineup in defenses that were already significantly better than the Bills defense has been the last two seasons. Ed Reed has been playing with T.Suggs, R.Lewis, C.McAllister, etc. Polamalu stepped into a Pittsburgh defense that was already SB quality. Sanders stepped in for Mike Doss in an Indy defense that had already been playing Tony Dungy's Tampa 2 defense for some time. And, not one of these strong safeties has ever been called upon to play CB or serve as their team's nickle-back--not even Reed when his team's CBs were ravaged by injuries the way the Bills' CB corps was last season.

And, how about how Indy's defense performed when it had a lot of injuries on defense? As I recall, they were ranked 32nd and dead last in the NFL in run defense and Sanders ended up getting hurt (the Indy defense was not able to stop the run until the playoffs when they also had their starting MLB and DTs and CBs healthy to support Sanders). Now, it is true that the Bills didn't do a whole lot better than that last season, but at least Whitner managed to stay on the field until the last game. And, what about Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu? It seems to me that both of them had "off" years when their teammates suffered a lot of injuries and that they got hurt and missed time those seasons, too.

You say that Whitner hasn't been a "difference maker" for the Bills. In what regard? He has had just one less turnover generated in two years than Sanders had in three years. Sanders is no better in pass coverage--and one can argue worse. Oh, I know, he doesn't make big hits on the opposition...that's it, you want a guy who is intimidating (ask Chad Johnson and the Cincy WRs if they were intimidated by Whitner after he decked "Ocho Cinq-o"), not necessarily a guy who just does everything that the team has asked of him.

I'm not making excuses for Whitner.

My point is that this is a player who has stepped in and done everything that the Bills have asked him to do as well as could be expected from a player in his first two seasons under difficult circumstances. My point is that, if given a chance by the fans, like you, who have placed unrealistic expectations on him, this is a player who can perform at a very high level in a defense that is able to run its system properly--which will give him a chance to make plays and be the kind of "difference maker" that no player can be reasonably expected to be (and that even Sanders was not!) when the team is unable to run its system to the fullest.

I do not evaluate a player based on where he was taken in a draft: I don't expect a player taken at # 8 to be a certain amount better than a player taken at # 18, etc. and complain if he does not perform up to his "draft status" because there are reasons that a player may be taken in the first round rather than the second that have nothing to do with sheer ability--for example, some years, one position may be so much thinner than another position that a team may have to take a player at the first position higher than at the second position in order to get the same quality of player at both positions, etc. What I look to see is if the player is a standout at his position and is able to do everything that the team asks of him. With Whitner making the All-Rookie team and garnering notice as an "up-and-coming" player, he has accomplished both of those things.

As for Whitner living up to the expectations of being the # 8 pick in the draft, again, I ask: whose expectations? I think that, if you asked the Bills coaches and front office--even in their most candid and honest moments--they would tell you that Whitner has lived up to their expectations so far. I also believe that they would tell you that they expect him to do even more in the not-too-distant future, starting with this season. And, so do I.

I believe that if you fairly evaluate Whitner's performance--and that means taking ALL factors into consideration--you would have to come to the same conclusion.



Geez, I wish you guys would take the time to read and maybe do some "homework" before posting stuff like this!

There was ample evidence published--and summarized in an article that I wrote for the BZ front page, that probably is still in the archives or that can be Googled, shortly after Whitner was drafted--that pointed out that there were several teams, including St.Louis and Baltimore, that were very interested in selecting Whitner if the Bills had not taken him with the 8th pick or had traded down out of that pick.

If the Bills had used that pick on another player at a different position, the next highest rated Tampa 2 SS in the draft was D.Bullocks, who was selected one pick before the Bills would have picked in the second round had they not traded up to take McCargo. The Bills would have had to trade up to get Bullocks had they passed on Whitner because they had to come out of the first two rounds of that draft with a DT and a SS in order to be able to run the Tampa 2 defense that they had decided to install. At the time, the Bills had only three DTs: Anderson, Tripplett and Jefferson on their roster and Bowen was their only SS--and you have to know that they were not going to go into the season with only those guys at those positions.

I can only imagine what the comments on this board would have been had the Bills taken Broderick Bunkley--the DT that everyone thought was the best fit in a T-2 defense--and traded up to get Daniel Bullocks in that draft! (For those who might counter by saying that the Bills could have taken Jason Allen, let me remind you that Allen was rated more as a CB/FS than a SS and had had injury issues while in college, making him a much riskier pick than Whitner. And, how great has Allen proven to be?)

The only argument against the Whitner pick that holds ANY water is that the Bills could have chosen to take Haloti Ngata instead. But, had they done so, they still would have had to trade up to get Bullocks. Given John McCargo's injury that cost him his rookie season and the way that the Bills have under-used McCargo, one can make the argument that Ngata-Bullocks would have been a better DT-SS combination that Whitner-McCargo. But, rightly or wrongly, the Bills did not feel that Ngata would be a good fit in their Tampa 2 defense--and we don't know how well he would have performed in the Bills' system had they taken him--and, making that assessment, they pretty much had to go the way that they did (keep in mind that Wroten, the next highest rated/drafted DT on the board had serious character issues and has been pretty much a bust for St.Louis). Now, that may prove to have been a mistake, but I would argue that it is still too early to make that call because it really takes three full season before you can assess how good a draft pick really was (remember, Mike Williams looked pretty good as a rookie, but failed to continue to improve and step up his game to the level it should have been at down the road).

You can argue all you want about whether the Bills should have decided to install a Tampa 2 defense or not (a defense that has produced SB winners and finalists in recent years and that allowed them to "ease" certain unwanted, out-spoken veterans out of town with minimal disruption to the lockerroom). But, that's not going to change the fact that that is what the Bills FO and coaching staff decided to do. And, having made that decision--for whatever reasons--there were certain things that they, then, had to do in order to run that defense that limited what their options were in that draft.

And my point is, again, that, to this point, Whitner has done everything that the Bills have asked him to do and that he could reasonably have been expected to do--by them and by their fans--during his first two years in the league. Now, obviously, he will have to continue to not ony do those things, but continue to step up his game even more to become the kind of player that we all want him to be--but, we will only know if he can do that going forward. And, it is my point that, statistically at least, he has shown every evidence that he is on the right path to do that.

BTW: St.Louis, which was looking to replace A.Archuleta, traded out of it's spot immediately after the Bills selected Whitner and ended up selecting a CB later in the first round rather than Bullocks and starting a converted LB at SS as a result. A.Bethea, who has primarily played FS for Indy, was selected much later in that draft and has done very well, but he was not very highly rated going into that draft and could not have been counted on to fill the Bills' need at SS, even if they had had a "crystal ball" and taken him instead of Whitner in that draft.

:10:

[OpIv37]

Expectations? Whose expectations are we talking about? Yours?

And, what are those expectations exactly? Are or have they been realistic?

Just because a player was taken with the # 8 pick in the draft, you cannot expect him to step in and perform like an All-Pro as a rookie or even in his second season--especially when he has been largely surrounded by rookies and second-stringers for those two years. What, you expect him to do it all...by himself..with no learning curve? Get real!

His rookie season he was playing with another rookie safety in a defensive system that the entire team was playing for the first time and still learning. In his second season, he ended up playing most of the season next to a converted WR and a 3rd stringer at the other safety position, with a rookie and then a second-year back-up starting at MLB, and new players being shuffled into the defense virtually every week and ended up having to play CB and the nickle-back positions in more than a few games because of injuries to the CBs.

Now, you can call all of that an excuse, but what do you expect the guy to be--Superman? How the heck is he supposed to concentrate on doing his own job when he is being called on to help everyone else around him do theirs? How was he supposed to learn what his own job was correctly? Try doing that sometime at a new job and tell me--honestly--that you would be performing at an "All-Pro" level at your own job (no overtime to help you catch up, either!).

And, how is he supposed to be the play-maker that you expect him to be when the team, by its own admission, was no running schemes that would allow him to be in a position to make the kind of decisive plays that you expect him to make? If you just read the articles in the Buffalo News and Rochester Democrat and Chronicle that appear on the BZ front page, you would know that Perry Fewell admitted on more than one occasion during each of the past two seasons, particularly last season (because they were bringing in new players almost weekly), that he was so concerned about Bills players not knowing the schemes that he felt that he had to play "vanilla" and intentionally limited the defensive packages that he ran in many of the games that the team played. When a team does that, it isn't hard for the opposition to figure out what they are doing (or not doing as well) and that automatically places the defenders at a disadvantage.

Again, you can call that an excuse--and I expect that you will. But, if you are going to fairly assess a player's performance, it is foolish not to take all of the factors impacting his performance into account.

Compare Whitner's situation to that of Reed, Sanders and Polamalu: all three of those players stepped into the starting lineup in defenses that were already significantly better than the Bills defense has been the last two seasons. Ed Reed has been playing with T.Suggs, R.Lewis, C.McAllister, etc. Polamalu stepped into a Pittsburgh defense that was already SB quality. Sanders stepped in for Mike Doss in an Indy defense that had already been playing Tony Dungy's Tampa 2 defense for some time. And, not one of these strong safeties has ever been called upon to play CB or serve as their team's nickle-back--not even Reed when his team's CBs were ravaged by injuries the way the Bills' CB corps was last season.

And, how about how Indy's defense performed when it had a lot of injuries on defense? As I recall, they were ranked 32nd and dead last in the NFL in run defense and Sanders ended up getting hurt (the Indy defense was not able to stop the run until the playoffs when they also had their starting MLB and DTs and CBs healthy to support Sanders). Now, it is true that the Bills didn't do a whole lot better than that last season, but at least Whitner managed to stay on the field until the last game. And, what about Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu? It seems to me that both of them had "off" years when their teammates suffered a lot of injuries and that they got hurt and missed time those seasons, too.

You say that Whitner hasn't been a "difference maker" for the Bills. In what regard? He has had just one less turnover generated in two years than Sanders had in three years. Sanders is no better in pass coverage--and one can argue worse. Oh, I know, he doesn't make big hits on the opposition...that's it, you want a guy who is intimidating (ask Chad Johnson and the Cincy WRs if they were intimidated by Whitner after he decked "Ocho Cinq-o"), not necessarily a guy who just does everything that the team has asked of him.

I'm not making excuses for Whitner.

My point is that this is a player who has stepped in and done everything that the Bills have asked him to do as well as could be expected from a player in his first two seasons under difficult circumstances. My point is that, if given a chance by the fans, like you, who have placed unrealistic expectations on him, this is a player who can perform at a very high level in a defense that is able to run its system properly--which will give him a chance to make plays and be the kind of "difference maker" that no player can be reasonably expected to be (and that even Sanders was not!) when the team is unable to run its system to the fullest.

I do not evaluate a player based on where he was taken in a draft: I don't expect a player taken at # 8 to be a certain amount better than a player taken at # 18, etc. and complain if he does not perform up to his "draft status" because there are reasons that a player may be taken in the first round rather than the second that have nothing to do with sheer ability--for example, some years, one position may be so much thinner than another position that a team may have to take a player at the first position higher than at the second position in order to get the same quality of player at both positions, etc. What I look to see is if the player is a standout at his position and is able to do everything that the team asks of him. With Whitner making the All-Rookie team and garnering notice as an "up-and-coming" player, he has accomplished both of those things.

As for Whitner living up to the expectations of being the # 8 pick in the draft, again, I ask: whose expectations? I think that, if you asked the Bills coaches and front office--even in their most candid and honest moments--they would tell you that Whitner has lived up to their expectations so far. I also believe that they would tell you that they expect him to do even more in the not-too-distant future, starting with this season. And, so do I.

I believe that if you fairly evaluate Whitner's performance--and that means taking ALL factors into consideration--you would have to come to the same conclusion.



Geez, I wish you guys would take the time to read and maybe do some "homework" before posting stuff like this!

There was ample evidence published--and summarized in an article that I wrote for the BZ front page, that probably is still in the archives or that can be Googled, shortly after Whitner was drafted--that pointed out that there were several teams, including St.Louis and Baltimore, that were very interested in selecting Whitner if the Bills had not taken him with the 8th pick or had traded down out of that pick.

If the Bills had used that pick on another player at a different position, the next highest rated Tampa 2 SS in the draft was D.Bullocks, who was selected one pick before the Bills would have picked in the second round had they not traded up to take McCargo. The Bills would have had to trade up to get Bullocks had they passed on Whitner because they had to come out of the first two rounds of that draft with a DT and a SS in order to be able to run the Tampa 2 defense that they had decided to install. At the time, the Bills had only three DTs: Anderson, Tripplett and Jefferson on their roster and Bowen was their only SS--and you have to know that they were not going to go into the season with only those guys at those positions.

I can only imagine what the comments on this board would have been had the Bills taken Broderick Bunkley--the DT that everyone thought was the best fit in a T-2 defense--and traded up to get Daniel Bullocks in that draft! (For those who might counter by saying that the Bills could have taken Jason Allen, let me remind you that Allen was rated more as a CB/FS than a SS and had had injury issues while in college, making him a much riskier pick than Whitner. And, how great has Allen proven to be?)

The only argument against the Whitner pick that holds ANY water is that the Bills could have chosen to take Haloti Ngata instead. But, had they done so, they still would have had to trade up to get Bullocks. Given John McCargo's injury that cost him his rookie season and the way that the Bills have under-used McCargo, one can make the argument that Ngata-Bullocks would have been a better DT-SS combination that Whitner-McCargo. But, rightly or wrongly, the Bills did not feel that Ngata would be a good fit in their Tampa 2 defense--and we don't know how well he would have performed in the Bills' system had they taken him--and, making that assessment, they pretty much had to go the way that they did (keep in mind that Wroten, the next highest rated/drafted DT on the board had serious character issues and has been pretty much a bust for St.Louis). Now, that may prove to have been a mistake, but I would argue that it is still too early to make that call because it really takes three full season before you can assess how good a draft pick really was (remember, Mike Williams looked pretty good as a rookie, but failed to continue to improve and step up his game to the level it should have been at down the road).

You can argue all you want about whether the Bills should have decided to install a Tampa 2 defense or not (a defense that has produced SB winners and finalists in recent years and that allowed them to "ease" certain unwanted, out-spoken veterans out of town with minimal disruption to the lockerroom). But, that's not going to change the fact that that is what the Bills FO and coaching staff decided to do. And, having made that decision--for whatever reasons--there were certain things that they, then, had to do in order to run that defense that limited what their options were in that draft.

And my point is, again, that, to this point, Whitner has done everything that the Bills have asked him to do and that he could reasonably have been expected to do--by them and by their fans--during his first two years in the league. Now, obviously, he will have to continue to not ony do those things, but continue to step up his game even more to become the kind of player that we all want him to be--but, we will only know if he can do that going forward. And, it is my point that, statistically at least, he has shown every evidence that he is on the right path to do that.

BTW: St.Louis, which was looking to replace A.Archuleta, traded out of it's spot immediately after the Bills selected Whitner and ended up selecting a CB later in the first round rather than Bullocks and starting a converted LB at SS as a result. A.Bethea, who has primarily played FS for Indy, was selected much later in that draft and has done very well, but he was not very highly rated going into that draft and could not have been counted on to fill the Bills' need at SS, even if they had had a "crystal ball" and taken him instead of Whitner in that draft.


I think getting your hands on the ball more than 4x a season as a DB is NOT too much to ask.
I think not missing tackles that lead to 50 yard touchdowns by gimp-ass RB's is NOT too much to ask.
I think making a play on the ball instead of standing there watching the Patriots throw TD's in FRONT of you is not too much to ask.

Yeah, he was a rookie thrown into a tough situation. What did he do? Nothing. He just blended in with the rest of the mediocrity instead of distinguishing himself.

We could have had Ngata with that pick. And yes, that would have put pressure on us to find a S, but you said yourself the S's job is a whole lot easier when there's pressure on the QB and the S doesn't have to help in the run game.

Your idea of a "fair assessment" is holding everyone except the player responsible for their play. I don't buy it.

[BillsFever21]

You remember how bad the Colts' defense was for most of the season in their SB season a couple years ago? Remember when Bob Sanders came back to the lineup how much it instantly improved?

That is what a Bob Sanders type player is all about. This is foolish to try and compare Whitner to Sanders. In a position like that stats do not show the entire story.

Are they credited with a stat when the QB doesn't throw in their direction because their guy is covered? Do they get negative stats when they give up a big pass play? Do they get a stat when the WR is afraid to even go across the middle of the field because they are there?

The dispute isn't that Whitner has been one of the worst Safeties in the league. The dispute is that he isn't any better then most of the other Safeties and hasn't had the impact somebody drafted #8 should have as a Safety.

The fact is we could have equaled Whitner's production in the later rounds while also have Ngata. That is the biggest dispute.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Go back to their SB year and look at the Colts defense without Sanders and look at the defense with him. It's AMAZING, the guy is a difference maker.

Oh, I remember. And, I'm not denigrating Sanders' play, either. But, I would also point out that when Sanders returned to their lineup for the playoffs, so, too, did their starting MLB, Gary Brackett. McFarland and one of their other top four D-linemen did the week before. (If I'm not mistaken, a DB who had been injured also was finally healthy enough to play again as well.)

In short, Sanders wasn't the only one responsible for their defense suddenly improving from worst in the league to good enough to win the SB. Sanders was terrific in the playoffs, no doubt. But, having those other players back certainly helped him to be able to make the big plays that he made in those playoffs.

I'm not putting down Sanders. My point is that Whitner has equal or better stats to Sanders' during the time when Sanders was developing into the player that he has become and that it is unfair to put Whitner down because he hasn't been the player that Sanders became later on. In those playoffs that you spoke of, Sanders had all of those other veteran Indy defensive players returning to health to help put him in a position to make big plays--that did not happen for Whitner last year.

What makes you believe with absolute certainty that Whitner will not be able to make those kinds of plays at the end of this coming season or in the season after that--when he will have been in the league as long as Sanders was the last two seasons--or that he couldn't make those plays with the surrounding cast that Sanders has had to put him in a position where he could make those plays?


I think getting your hands on the ball more than 4x a season as a DB is NOT too much to ask.

Does that mean that Sanders sucked his first three seasons, too? Because, if you read the chart it shows that Sanders didn't get his hands on the ball during any one on his first three seasons any more than Whitner did in his first two seasons.

I think not missing tackles that lead to 50 yard touchdowns by gimp-ass RB's is NOT too much to ask.
I think making a play on the ball instead of standing there watching the Patriots throw TD's in FRONT of you is not too much to ask.

Did you ever play ANY sport? Every player misses a play that someone can point to like this! If I were to watch every Colts game or Ravens game, I'm sure that I could find a couple of plays that Sanders and Reed blew just this past season alone.

What about the good plays that Whitner made? Or are you so biased in your view that you won't give him any credit for the good plays that he made that may have offset these bad ones? Can't remember any? How about his big hit on Chad Johnson or his interception? I seem to remember him making at least one stop for a loss on a third down play and another stop for a loss on a bubble screen again on third down, etc.

Oh, I get it: you don't think Whitner is good enough, so he has to be perfect and make a "difference making" play on every down....


Yeah, he was a rookie thrown into a tough situation. What did he do? Nothing. He just blended in with the rest of the mediocrity instead of distinguishing himself.

Whitner only made the All-Rookie team and was in the top 10 (actually it may have been the top 5) in tackles made by a strong safety that season. You may have failed to notice that because he was surrounded by so much mediocrity, but that's on you, not his fault.

We could have had Ngata with that pick. And yes, that would have put pressure on us to find a S, but you said yourself the S's job is a whole lot easier when there's pressure on the QB and the S doesn't have to help in the run game.

I get it. I get it. You're upset that the Bills didn't take Ngata and decided to take McCargo instead. But, just because you're upset that the Bills chose to go in that direction, don't take your anger out on Whitner.

A safety's job may be easier if there is pressure on the QB, but finding a strong safety who can play well in a Tampa 2 defense is a lot harder than finding a safety who can play in a lot of other defenses: the strong safety in the Tampa 2 that the Bills play has to be able to play up in run support and still have the speed to cover the deep outside of the field--there are a lot of safeties who don't have the speed and hitting ability to do both.

Your idea of a "fair assessment" is holding everyone except the player responsible for their play. I don't buy it.

Oh, no. That's not what I said and I'm not going to let you put words in my mouth like that!

While I think that Whitner has done a pretty good job doing what the Bills have asked him to do and expected him to do in his first two seasons, as I said in my original post, Whitner still has a ways to go: he is going to have to continue to develop and get better if he is going to become the kind of play-maker that the Bills drafted him to be--their "Bob Sanders".

Unlike you, however, I never expected him to come in and be an All-Pro as a rookie because the Bills took him with the 8th pick in the draft. On the contrary, I always expect rookies to make "rookie mistakes" and to take a couple of years to develop--NO MATTER WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN DRAFTED--because they are rookies. And, Whitner was and is no exception (and, if you look at the stats, neither was Bob Sanders!).

And, Whitner played pretty well for a rookie: well enough to be recognized by people around the NFL by making the All-Rookie team. Well enough to be one of the top tackling safeties in the league.

Last year he took a step back statistically, but helped to hold his team together while being called on to do a lot of things that a strong safety isn't usually asked to do by his team. While he was still learning how tobe a play-maker at strong safety, he was called on to play CB and nickle-back and to help his free safeties--you don't seem to appreciate just how difficult doing something like that is!

Now, does he still have "holes in his game", things that he needs to work on and get better at? No doubt about it!

As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, he still needs to learn to take better angles, particularly in pass coverage. While he improved in this area in run support from his rookie to his second year, it has not been his strong suit (as evidenced by the two plays that you cited) and it is something that he is going to have to continue to work on and get better at if he is going to take his game to the next level the way that Sanders did during his third season in the league (the year that Indy won the SB).

Whitner also could use to work on locating the ball better when it is in the air. One thing that could help him in this area would be if he didn't have to play as close to the line of scrimmage to help in run-support as he has had to over the last two seasons (BTW: Sanders has been in the NFL 2 years longer and still isn't that good at locating the ball in the air unless it is in front of him--nor has he been asked to do as much covering the deep outside zone as Whitner has either).

IMHO, Whitner could also work on being a better tackler as well (something that I think most players in the NFL these days need to improve on also). I don't care if he never makes a big hit so long as he makes a solid, sure tackle every time he gets to the man with the ball. If he does that, turnovers will come (and, that's another area he could work on as well).

So, yes, I do see "holes" in Whitner's game and things that he really needs to work on. And I am not giving him a "pass" for any of those things--I expect to see him improve in all of these areas this season (and I'd bet the ranch that the Bills expect that too!).

But, it would certainly help if he could concentrate on getting better at playing his own position instead of having to help his teammates play theirs because so many have been injured and replaced that the guys who are on the field with Whitner are either scrubs or guys that have just been brought in off of the street. It would also help if, in addition to staying healthy, the guys who are supposed to be playing around him would do their jobs halfway decently--that would make it a lot easier for him do his job (like a good clean-up hitter will knock in more runs if the guys hitting in front of him get on base, a good T-2 strong safety will make more plays if the guys up-front do what they are supposed to do!).

I'm not just looking at the player and blaming his short-comings on his teammates--I see what his faults are as an individual player and expect him to improve on those--but, unlike you and Whitner's other critics, I also see that player as being a part of a WHOLE, a TEAM, and am willing to assess his performance within that context. That doesn't mean that I am making any excuses for his legitimate short-comings (and, as I have detailed, he has them!), but that also doesn't mean that I am going to ignore the good things that he has done, either--which is something that you, in your anger that the Bills selected him over Ngata, seem all too willing to do.

For a rookie and then a second year player, Whitner has performed well--he has been a good player. He has shown improvement and will have to continue to improve if he is going to step up and become a great player--the kind of great player that you have expected him to be already and that I (and I'm sure the Bills) expect him to become.

I think that the fact that, in his first two seasons, he has matched or exceeded what Bob Sanders was able to do statistically in his first three seasons, is a good sign that Whitner has the ability and is on the right track to become that kind of player.

Will he ever become the kind of player that Sanders has become? We should find out over the next two seasons. Will he be perfect or become Superman and not ever miss a tackle or the chance to make a play? Well, if that's what you're expecting, you are going to be disappointed because NO PLAYER EVER has been or will be perfect or make every possible play! And, if that's what you are looking for from Whitner, it ain't gonna happen because that is a totally unrealistic expectation to have of him or any other player.

(BTW: I can guarantee you that Ngata isn't perfect, either--you can take it to the bank that he has already missed tackles and opportunities to create turnovers as well.)

[gr8slayer]

Oh, I remember. And, I'm not denigrating Sanders' play, either. But, I would also point out that when Sanders returned to their lineup for the playoffs, so, too, did their starting MLB, Gary Brackett. McFarland and one of their other top four D-linemen did the week before. (If I'm not mistaken, a DB who had been injured also was finally healthy enough to play again as well.)

In short, Sanders wasn't the only one responsible for their defense suddenly improving from worst in the league to good enough to win the SB. Sanders was terrific in the playoffs, no doubt. But, having those other players back certainly helped him to be able to make the big plays that he made in those playoffs.

I'm not putting down Sanders. My point is that Whitner has equal or better stats to Sanders' during the time when Sanders was developing into the player that he has become and that it is unfair to put Whitner down because he hasn't been the player that Sanders became later on. In those playoffs that you spoke of, Sanders had all of those other veteran Indy defensive players returning to health to help put him in a position to make big plays--that did not happen for Whitner last year.

What makes you believe with absolute certainty that Whitner will not be able to make those kinds of plays at the end of this coming season or in the season after that--when he will have been in the league as long as Sanders was the last two seasons--or that he couldn't make those plays with the surrounding cast that Sanders has had to put him in a position where he could make those plays?In my books every rookie gets three years before they get the bust tag. I'm not saying he's a horrible player, some of you just greatly overrate a guy who has been nothing but average so far. Great player make the players around them better, Whitner is not a great player like the Sanders, Reeds, and Polamalus of the world. BTW, statistics are overrated....

[LifetimeBillsFan]

In my books every rookie gets three years before they get the bust tag. I'm not saying he's a horrible player, some of you just greatly overrate a guy who has been nothing but average so far. Great player make the players around them better, Whitner is not a great player like the Sanders, Reeds, and Polamalus of the world. BTW, statistics are overrated....

The funny thing is that, except for the fact that we disagree over whether Whitner has been average (your take) or pretty good (my take) so far, I basically agree with you on most of this.

I happen to think that stats are considerably over-rated. I only did this analysis because most of Whitner's critics, like OpIv above, kept citing his stats to support their contention that he stinks. One of the things that I was trying to do was show that Whitner's stats through 2 years were as good as Sanders' stats in the best of his first three seasons, so that argument didn't hold any water.

I also very much believe that you have to see how a player plays and develops for three years before you can truly determine how good he is or will be. As this statistical analysis shows, Sanders really didn't really emerge as a solid force for Indy until the end of his 3rd season. This is also why I cited Mike Williams above: Williams looked pretty good as a rookie, but by the end of his third season it was already becoming apparent that the guy was too lazy to do what he needed to do to get better and was about to become the major bust that he turned out to be.

I really want to see how Whitner and McCargo play this season--especially if the rest of the Bills defense can stay reasonably healthy. To me, that will show a lot about how good both of them (even though a case can be made that McCargo is a year behind because he lost most of his rookie year to injury) may end up being.

Having played on a team, albeit in another sport, that was ravaged by injuries like the Bills were last season, I think that it is very difficult to assess how good or bad the better players are on a team like that (I know if you had looked at me the year before, the year my team was hit with injuries, and the next season when we were all healthy, you would not have believed that you were seeing the same player). I think that it will be very important to see how well Whitner can play on a defensive squad that is reasonably healthy (very few NFL teams make it through an entire season totally healthy, so I'm not looking for that--reasonably healthy would do).

If the Bills are reasonably healthy, I want to see if Whitner can start making some more big, "difference-making" plays. I'm not expecting him to be able to do what Reed and Polamalu do--they play in different defensive systems that give them more opportunities to make big, eye-popping plays. Because of the system that the Bills play, you won't see Whitner blitzing the QB like Polamalu or roaming free to pick off passes like Reed, so he's not going to be making a lot of those kinds of plays that you see those two players making.

What I want to see, though, is whether he can make the kind of big plays that Sanders has been making for the Indy defense, the kind of plays that John Lynch used to make for Tampa Bay, that Mike Brown would make for the Bears when he was healthy (I have a feeling that Whitner is going to turn out to be more like Mike Brown than Lynch or Sanders--and that's not bad at all, because Brown has been a big key to the success of their defense, even if he hasn't gotten the same kind of credit that Urlacher, Harris and Briggs have gotten). Comparing what Whitner does for the Bills this season and next to what those players have done, in a similar kind of defensive system, would be a much more fair comparison. And, what I expect to start seeing from Whitner is him making more of those kinds of plays this season.

No question about it, though, this is going to be a critical year for Whitner--and for McCargo, to a somewhat lesser extent, as well. And, IMHO we should just wait to see how well they do.