Depth, Depth, Depth, Depth

[patmoran2006]

Depth.. Depth.. Depth... GOD I'm so sick of hearing that word.

We're looking at this guy for "depth". This guy is a good signing because he's "depth".

You know what word I'd LOVE to start hearing?

"STARTER"

We're a losing football team ladies and gentlemen. We need STARTERS. WE have more "depth" than any team in the history of football.

[Jaybird]

Agreed!

i think we need 3 more starters

WR, CB, TE

[Mitchy moo]

Everybody would like every signing to be a 1st string starter, it's not going to happen.

[Nighthawk]

I can't argue with you there!

[HAMMER]

Yes we need a few key positions filled but depth is important as evidenced by the number of players we had on IR last year. It didn't take long for you to turn negative on the FO did it?

[Nighthawk]

Everybody would like every signing to be a 1st string starter, it's not going to happen.

Umm, other teams actually address their problem positions by signing starters...not depth players.

[HAMMER]

Everybody would like every signing to be a 1st string starter, it's not going to happen.

That's right Skooby Doo.

[Nighthawk]

Yes we need a few key positions filled but depth is important as evidenced by the number of players we had on IR last year. It didn't take long for you to turn negative on the FO did it?

Depth is only good if you actually have good starters in front of them. At this time, we are lacking in a few areas...TE, WR & CB.

[DraftBoy]

Depth wins, you dont have it, you dont have a prayer!

[Midwesternbillsfan]

We've already relegated three '07 starters to the bench (or to the unemployment line): Keith Ellison, Kyle Williams, and Larry Tripplett. And we were projected to lose no one who was a starter to FA. Granted, at least 1/3rd of our starters from '07 invited upgrades, but we've accomplishmed some of that and the only remaining positions that behoove a dramatic improvement from replacements are 2nd wideout (Josh Reed) and TE (Robert Royal). I don't like Melvin Folwer but we'll live with him another year at C, anyway, it seems. And Jabari Greer is not an elite CB but he was not often exposed last year and both he and McGee could surprise with a front-four that can actually generate some semblance of even an infrequent pass-rush. So... and I realize it's asking a lot out of draft picks... we're probably drafting two immediate starters- at WR (Sweed, Kelly) and TE (a plethora of options here). It's manageable- we have removed our needs at DT and LB and upgraded 3 starting spots already.

[B-DON]

Name any guy we could sign besides bryant johnson(who we are trying to sign) that would come in here and immediately start.

[Mr. Pink]

Name any guy we could sign besides bryant johnson(who we are trying to sign) that would come in here and immediately start.

Ben Utecht. Justin Hartwig. Dan Kreider.

There's 3.

[Nighthawk]

Ben Utecht. Justin Hartwig. Dan Kreider.

There's 3.

Eric Johnson would've been another. Don't forget Hackett.

[B-DON]

Kreider is a FB so who really cares. You talkin about the same Hartwig that the Panthers just canned. No thanks. And Utecht is not an upgrade over Royal. I would have the same stats with Manning throwing me the ball. I.E how is pollard doing in seattle? Thanks for trying, please play again

[Nighthawk]

Kreider is a FB so who really cares. You talkin about the same Hartwig that the Panthers just canned. No thanks. And Utecht is not an upgrade over Royal. I would have the same stats with Manning throwing me the ball. I.E how is pollard doing in seattle? Thanks for trying, please play again

You're wrong. Hartwig is a BIG improvement over what we have. Don't know much about Utecht, but I know Eric Johnson is something this team doesn't have...a TE who can actually catch!

[B-DON]

Just cuz a guy has a little more skill, doesnt mean his contract or style of play neccessarily fits in to our plans.

[Midwesternbillsfan]

You're wrong. Hartwig is a BIG improvement over what we have. Don't know much about Utecht, but I know Eric Johnson is something this team doesn't have...a TE who can actually catch!

It's moot now- Eric Johnson re-signed w/New Orleans earlier today. But IMO, his 7.9 YPC in '07 was mightily underwhelming.

[B-DON]

We are already trying to get a WR so throw Hacketts name out until we know for sure we arent getting bryant, and if hartwig is so good why is he unemployed at this point and time? Lets just go out and sign every teams trash while we are at it.

[Nighthawk]

We are already trying to get a WR so throw Hacketts name out until we know for sure we arent getting bryant, and if hartwig is so good why is he unemployed at this point and time? Lets just go out and sign every teams trash while we are at it.

He was cut for cap reasons and the fact that they drafted Kalil out of USC last year. It is not an indication that he sucks or isn't worth it. The guy still can play.

[B-DON]

He was cut for cap reasons and the fact that they drafted Kalil out of USC last year. It is not an indication that he sucks or isn't worth it. The guy still can play.
K well we are just going to have to agree to disagree on Hartwig. Plus I think the fact that Fowler is just average gets blown way out of proportion on this board. One person says he sucks and everybody just runs with it. I was more than satisfied with our oline last year and continuity can only improve it. that's my two cents on the center position

[X-Era]

Depth.. Depth.. Depth... GOD I'm so sick of hearing that word.

We're looking at this guy for "depth". This guy is a good signing because he's "depth".

You know what word I'd LOVE to start hearing?

"STARTER"

We're a losing football team ladies and gentlemen. We need STARTERS. WE have more "depth" than any team in the history of football.

The Bills have pretty much looked to the draft to land at least 2 immediate starters in each of the past few years.

I think you can expect that again. WR and TE are the two I would bet. CB is a possibility but not as clear of an immediate need. FB is the darkhorse and luckily, you can usually get one deeper in the draft.

I think our signing of FA starters is done for the year at this point, just my opinion.

[X-Era]

K well we are just going to have to agree to disagree on Hartwig. Plus I think the fact that Fowler is just average gets blown way out of proportion on this board. One person says he sucks and everybody just runs with it. I was more than satisfied with our oline last year and continuity can only improve it. that's my two cents on the center position

Totally agree.

The difference between a solid C and an all star may be tangible, but the difference between a solid one and a top 10 one is not.

Theres only about 3 or 4 guys in the league that I would honestly consider a clear upgrade. After that its just a different player. Maybe better, maybe worse, but really just different.

[Nighthawk]

K well we are just going to have to agree to disagree on Hartwig. Plus I think the fact that Fowler is just average gets blown way out of proportion on this board. One person says he sucks and everybody just runs with it. I was more than satisfied with our oline last year and continuity can only improve it. that's my two cents on the center position

I agree that our OL was pretty good last year, but I'd still look to improve it if possible. We will see. I just think that this team needs to look at Hackett because if the Johnson thing doesn't work, we STILL need to address the WR position. I'd like one FA brought in and one WR drafted. That would be a more effective solution to our problems then just hoping to hit on a WR in the draft, especially when WR's usually take 2-3 years to develop.

[B-DON]

The Bills have pretty much looked to the draft to land at least 2 immediate starters in each of the past few years.

I think you can expect that again. WR and TE are the two I would bet. CB is a possibility but not as clear of an immediate need. FB is the darkhorse and luckily, you can usually get one deeper in the draft.

I think our signing of FA starters is done for the year at this point, just my opinion.
Thank you, we havent even had the draft yet and people are freakin out. Besides drafting kids, there is always the possibility of trading for other players. Just calm down and wait a couple of months before we start crying

[HAMMER]

Depth is only good if you actually have good starters in front of them. At this time, we are lacking in a few areas...TE, WR & CB.
Really? Ya don't say.

[X-Era]

Thank you, we havent even had the draft yet and people are freakin out. Besides drafting kids, there is always the possibility of trading for other players. Just calm down and wait a couple of months before we start crying

totally agree.

I would have never pegged us to trade for a pro-bowl DT. I think this is a whole new game come draft day. We have shown were not afraid to m ove around in the draft, and now I think we even make a trade for a player.

Its a whole new ball game.

Let the draft hype build, let the focus shift to the draftees and away from big name players on the trading block.

Then, when teams shift their thoughts of how to fill their needs to draftees, the trade values for players start to drop more.

If we go in with two or three big needs and we arent getting the guys we want on draft day because they didnt drop, pull a trade at a reduced rate.

Players like Roy Williams, Lito Sheppard come to mind.
W

[FlyingDutchman]

Even after last season, you dont think depth is important?

[raphael120]

Well at least in the past two FA seasons we've actually signed some impactful FAs, unlike the first year Marv was here, that FA class was horrid and we cut most of the players and most of the players we drafted that year are average or depth.

Marv did better last year getting Poz, Edwards, and Lynch. Addressing the Oline was big, yet the biggest weakness of the line (Fowler) was picked by Marv in his first season here. 3 steps forward, 1 step back it seems.

So our hopes hang on a rookie WR, a rookie TE, a potential rookie center/RG. We'd have to luck out pretty damn good in the draft for us to be big players.

[raphael120]

After last season, you dont think depth is important?

LOL

Depth wasn't an issue because we had TOO MUCH depth! Our "starters" should have been depth and would be on any other team. (Ellison, Greer, Tripplett, Price, Kelsay, Fowler, Butler)

[yordad]

Agreed!

i think we need 3 more starters

WR, CB, TEOne of these pre draft, and we will be pretty set.

[X-Era]

Well at least in the past two FA seasons we've actually signed some impactful FAs, unlike the first year Marv was here, that FA class was horrid and we cut most of the players and most of the players we drafted that year are average or depth.

Marv did better last year getting Poz, Edwards, and Lynch. Addressing the Oline was big, yet the biggest weakness of the line (Fowler) was picked by Marv in his first season here. 3 steps forward, 1 step back it seems.

So our hopes hang on a rookie WR, a rookie TE, a potential rookie center/RG. We'd have to luck out pretty damn good in the draft for us to be big players.

Melvin Fowler, a highly touted C from Maryland, drafted in the 3rd round and with 6 years of experience behind him is the weakest link on an O Line that boasts a two year player, one year starter, and 5th round pick in Brad Butler?

Sorry, I dont see that. Give me some evidence that Fowler sucks. By the way, I actually like both Butler and Fowler.

Trent Edwards, a rookie, had less sacks per snap than any Bills QB in the past 5 years at least, that ought to end any supposed "issues" with the OL right there. But wait, theres more, we also put a rookie RB, who missed 3 games, over 1000 yards on the season.

No, we have bigger issues than the C position or any position on the OL.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Melvin Fowler, a highly touted C from Maryland, drafted in the 3rd round and with 6 years of experience behind him is the weakest link on an O Line that boasts a two year player, one year starter, and 5th round pick in Brad Butler?

Sorry, I dont see that. Give me some evidence that Fowler sucks. By the way, I actually like both Butler and Fowler.

Trent Edwards, a rookie, had less sacks per snap than any Bills QB in the past 5 years at least, that ought to end any supposed "issues" with the OL right there. But wait, theres more, we also put a rookie RB, who missed 3 games, over 1000 yards on the season.

No, we have bigger issues than the C position or any position on the OL.

Nice post.

I would say, given that we were often projected to take a DT or OLB in round one this year, but addressed both positions in free agency, that we have done well to set ourselves up for the draft.

There aren't many options out there at WR. Bryant Johnson has proven nothing and Hackett is an awfully big risk since he will want a sizeable contract and is often injured. Porter may have been the only WR worth signing but he was overpaid and has been inconsistent during his 8 year career. You never know which Jerry Porter is going to show up, the receiver or the douche bag. If we can get Johnson relatively cheap, it's worth a shot, but we really need to draft a good one.

At TE, Eric Johnson is another player who will demand decent money and has injury issues. Pollard looks ordinary outside Indy. Jerramy Stevens is decent, but he's a gamble and has not shaken the dropsies. Everybody else is really not that impressive. We would do better in the draft.

At CB, Greer and McGee were a decent tandem. With a pass rush and better play at FS, our pass defense will be fine. Anyone who watched the games was probably pleased with how Greer came along. I don't think CB was the problem. However we do sorely lack depth there with only Youboty and Fox behind the starters. We will sign someone and draft another.

We ought to know by now, that signing starting-quality free agents can become too expensive in the long run if you're not careful. The timing has to be right in order to compliment your nucleus that you have built over the course of a few years. Donahoe never did take that approach, or at least, he was horribly unsuccessful in his attempts.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

[FONT="Verdana"]
Depth.. Depth.. Depth... GOD I'm so sick of hearing that word.

We're looking at this guy for "depth". This guy is a good signing because he's "depth".

You know what word I'd LOVE to start hearing?

[SIZE=4]"STARTER"

We're a losing football team ladies and gentlemen. We need STARTERS. WE have more "depth" than any team in the history of football.

Come on, Pat, I know that you know a lot more about football and have much more insight and sense to post nonsense like this!

I wish I could thank everyone who posted a sensible and realistic response in this thread--it truly was heartening to see how well most have grasped the realities of the situation!!!

I'd like to know what "Starter" you would like to see the Bills sign right now?

1.) An offensive lineman? Forget it.

Anyone who has been paying any attention to what has been said by the folks at OBD should know that the Bills are NOT (underlined and underscored ten times!) going to sign a starting caliber center or guard this offseason. Why? Because, if they have said it once, they have said it a dozen times: CONTINUITY.

It's not just Jauron and Co., but just about every offensive line coach has said and will tell you that they believe that continuity will make an offensive line better. The Bills coaching staff has made it clear that they like the job that the offensive line did last year in pass blocking and they expect that--with continuity--the line will be even better this season. That means all five starters who are returning will be starting as a unit again this season, barring injury.

Brad Butler will be starting just his second season as the starting RG. Anyone who knows anything about the sport (and I know you do, Pat), knows that it takes time for offensive linemen--even first round draft picks--to develop. Anyone who followed the Bills the last couple of years knew, when the Bills drafted him, that Brad Butler was going to need time to develop. He missed most of his rookie season due to his shoulder injury and was moved from OT to OG. He stepped into the starting lineup the week before last season started--not having practiced with the rest of the starting O-line once through training camp.

Having invested the time and money that they have invested in developing Brad Butler to this point, why, in God's name, would anyone think that the Bills would give up on the kid now?

It's not going to happen! Certainly not this year.

As for Melvin Fowler: The Bills have a chance to put the same five starting offensive linemen on the field to start this season as they did last season for the first time since.....I can't even remember, it has been so long. The same five starting offensive linemen who set a team record for allowing the fewest sacks in a 16 game season.

What makes anyone think that the Bills' coaching staff will walk away from an opportunity to do that?

Why would the Bills bring in a guy from somewhere else--someone who was let go of by another team, that no one on the offensive line knows or has worked with before--regardless of how big he may be, to replace the guy who made all of the line calls and called all of the protections for their offensive line (again, the one that allowed the fewest sacks in team history) and is familiar with all of the other offensive linemen? Why would they sacrifice the chance to let their offensive line have the continuity to improve on its weaknesses to bring in a guy who may be physically better than the guy that they have at center now, but who will "upset the apple cart"?

It's not going to happen! Certainly not this season.

While the Bills might consider bringing in a rookie to develop as a potential replacement for Fowler down the road or sign an experienced, starting caliber center in free agency next offseason if their line does not improve its run-blocking this coming season, with Whittle and Preston being capable of playing any of the three interior line positions, the Bills are not likely to even spend money on signing an experienced veteran interior lineman this offseason, let alone bring in a starting caliber interior lineman to sit on the bench behind Fowler, Butler and Dockery this coming season.

While the Bills may consider bringing in a veteran offensive tackle to compete with Chambers, Estes and Murphy for a spot as a back-up at OT, they are not going to make any changes to their starting offensive line this season if they do not have to. And, anyone who thinks differently simply has not been paying attention to what the team has been saying and doing since the middle of last season.

Now, if the starting offensive line doesn't perform even better than it did last season during this coming season, all bets are off and changes could very well be in store. But, for this season? Forget it.

2.) You want the Bills to spend money on Utecht? OK. How much? Now, keep in mind that the Colts can match any offer that the Bills might make.

Is Utecht worth what it would cost to sign him? Would Troupe or Eric Johnson have been worth what it would have taken to sign them?

Maybe Troupe, if he could have regained his form from his first two years, would have been able to be the kind of starting TE that the Bills need. But, Eric Johnson is not a blocker--he's smaller than Anderson and Teyo Johnson, he's been injured a lot, and he would cost more to sign. And, Utecht? He has good hands and can get open, but he's no deep threat.

If the Bills draft F.Davis, M.Bennett or D.Keller, the odds are that by midseason Troupe, Johnson or Utecht would end up being where Anderson and T.Johnson are likely to be, if they are even still on the roster--on the bench, relegated to being the # 3 or # 4 TE.

If you want the Bills to have a starting caliber TE who can actually be a weapon catching the ball--a deep threat with star potential--then you were going to have to wait for the draft because, once the Colts re-signed D.Clark and Philly re-upped LJ Smith, there were no TEs available on the free agent market who had as much or more potential to be a star for the Bills than any one of the top 5 TEs in the upcoming draft. Troupe was the only TE available in free agency who has the physical skills to be as good as any of the top 6 TEs in this draft.

Now, the Bills had Troupe in and they talked to him, so obviously he was on their radar and they had scouted him. But, after talking to him and his agent, they never made a contract offer to him--that we know of. So, they either decided that they didn't like something that he said or his attitude, or his agent was asking for more money than they were willing to pay, or, most likely, they concluded that they will have a chance to get a better all-around TE--someone with a better chance to be a star--in the draft.

3.) After Randy Moss and Bernard Berrian, name a big wide receiver to hit the free agent market (J.Gage doesn't count because he re-signed before hitting the open market, etc.) who was a "sure-thing" as a starter, worthy of being signed to the kind of big money contracts that big WRs have been getting this offseason?

Earnest Wilford? Antonio Bryant? Bryant Johnson? DJ Hackett?

Which one has shown that he can be a star?

Now, what would you rather do: 1.) try to re-sign Lee Evans, draft a WR with the potential to become a big-time star, and, if you have any money left over after signing Evans, sign which ever big WR is still available to be a stop-gap until your rookie is ready to start; or, 2.) give one of these free agent WRs starting money, not have enough money to re-sign Evans, and have to draft a WR with the potential to become a big-time star to replace Evans?

Every indication coming out of OBD has been that they want to re-sign Lee Evans and that they know that it is going to take a ton of money to do that. Common sense says that the agents for Evans and Roy Williams were not going to do a thing to resolve their clients' contract issues until the Cardinals and Larry Fitzgerald set the going market price for a # 1 WR (they would be stupid to do otherwise). And, now that Fitzgerald has signed his contract extension, the Bills know that it is, indeed, going to take a ton of money--perhaps as much as $ 20 million in "up-front" cash to get a deal done with Evans.

$ 20 million.

Nearly half of the money that the Bills were supposed to have available going into free agency. For one player.

Counting how much they gave to K.Mitchell and S.Johnson to sign and M.Stroud to restructure his contract, just how much cash do you think that the Bills will have left if they end up giving Lee Evans close to $ 20 million in "up-front" money?

Maybe enough to be able to fill out their roster with role players and pay their rookies. Hopefully enough to sign a Bryant Johnson or DJ Hackett to an incentive laden contract without a big signing bonus.

Enough to give Johnson a 4-6 year deal at the kind of money that the other big WRs got and enough to sign Troupe or Utecht as starters as well? Or, to give even one of them the kind of money that they might expect to get based on some of the contracts that have been handed out around the NFL this offseason?

Take out your calculator and figure it out.

$ 40 million sounds like a lot, but when you have to hand out $ 20 million to one of your only two real stars in order to keep him in the fold, it can be gone very quickly.

So, which would you rather have? Evans and a rookie with the potential to be a star at WR and another rookie with similar potential at TE for the next 3 seasons. Or, Troupe/E.Johnson/Utecht and Bryant Johnson along with your rookies and L.Evans gone.

If the goal is to make a serious run at winning a Super Bowl and you know anything at all, you try to keep your proven star play-maker and add potential play-makers around him through the draft if you possibly can.

If there is one thing that the Bills need now to step up to the next level as a team, it is play-makers. The likes of Bryant Johnson and Ben Troupe are players who, to be kind, may be better than average players. Lee Evans is a play-maker. Malcolm Kelly, Limas Sweed, Kevin Hardy at WR, Fred Davis, Martellus Bennett, Dustin Keller, John Carlson, Martin Rucker, Brad Cottam, etc. are young players with the potential to be big-time play-makers.

Where do you want the Bills to put their money?

You want starters? Fine. But, it's going to cost you a play-maker.

The guys that the Bills get in the draft may not be ready to be starters until the middle or end of the season and the team may have to live with mediocrities until then, but you'll still have one of your two big play-makers and they will give you a couple more.

I'm sorry, Pat, but this is the real world...the real world of professional football... and you can't have it both ways.

There's a lot of complaining on this board about "mediocrities", about the Bills settling for mediocrities, etc. But, when they resist the temptation to fill obvious needs with "mediocrities" in order to put the team in a position to possibly retain a real player--a play-maker--if he is willing to be retained, there is an outcry that the team is not doing what it should do in order to address every possible need, want, desire. Well, folks, there's only so much money to go around and so much that the management of any team can do: sometimes you just have to put that unproven player out there on the field and see what he can do--because he will never become a "proven" player until you do that. And, sometimes, the team has to make some hard choices because no team--not even the Dallas Cowboys--can put an established All-Pro on the field at every position (and, if this past season has taught us anything at all it is that, even if they could, it still wouldn't guarantee that they would win a Super Bowl).

So, let's try to "keep our panties from getting in a bunch" and wait to see how things continue to shake out over at OBD between now and the start of training camp before we start going off the deep end. There'll be plenty of time to do that the first time that Trent Edwards throws a pick or someone on the defense misses an assignment or tackle and the opposition scores a TD...(both of which I predict WILL happen, to be followed by a chorus of moans, whining and screams of "I told you, he sucks!" on this MB!). :dance:

[kernowboy]

Excellent LTBF.

I myself was wondering where all these STARTERS we could sign were ... as several have mentioned, the depth in this years free agency has been poor and with the behaviour of the Raiders even average players are getting huge money. However we have cleverly used Free Agency to fill key needs and know that we can enter the draft in the knowledge, that such is the quality at position we need in the draft, we can pick up guys on Day2 and likely having them in the starting lineup after half a dozen games.

And why do we need depth - Kelsay, Denney, Stroud, Posluzny and Simpson, missed many games last season, and Crowell and McCargo the season before.

We need adequate depth in case we suffer the same problems and we need these guys to be cheap and good enough so the fall off in performance is not as noticeable.

Furthermore, it is possible we find a Patriots situation .. grabbing a player previously representing depth on another roster and turning him into a quality starter with us, someone like Mike Vrabel has become.

My concern is we have missed out on these 2nd level Free Agents who still have the physical ability and skill set to potentially break out if and when the lights came on, but could be cheaply acquired while we waited.

[YardRat]

There aren't any starters left out there at this point, except for maybe Johnson and that's only because we don't have anybody for #2 WR at the moment.

[evol4276]

didnt we sign 2 probowl starters, a rotational dt from one of the best run-stuffing teams around, and THEN 2 depth te's? isn't our te situation so bad that we have to take a chance to hopefully try and find a sleeper? yes i wuld have loved for us to sign a "no-doubt" starting te, but im fine with who we did sign there, especially after seeing what we did between those two te signings

[Jan Reimers]

I agree, Pat, and I think we definitely need starters at TE and WR, and perhaps CB and C.

But don't forget that in our injury plagued, 17-players-on-IR 2007 season, depth was key to our winning 7 games.