Would you be mad if..

[PECKERWOOD]

Buffalo took Harvey with the #11th pick overall? And maybe took WR, CB, TE and then FB in the rounds after, in that order? I think there is a good chance that McKelvin and DRC are both gone by the time we pick and no WR is really worth the 11th pick imo. My ideal draft looks something like this now:

Rd1.) Derrick Harvey, DE, Florida
Rd2.) Reggie Smith, CB, Oklahoma
Rd3.) Rucker, TE, Mizzou
Rd4a.) Jerome Simpson, WR, UCF
Rd4b.) Ali Highsmith, LB, LSU
Rd5.) Sullivan, C, ND
Rd6.) Best FB available.. Maybe Schmitt or Hillis?
Rd7.) Project pick -- maybe DB would have a good pick for here.


EDIT: Added 4th round pick we were awarded. ( Ali Highsmith, LB, LSU.. )

[DraftBoy]

Not mad at all, a little confused by the lack of direction but not mad.

[bflojohn]

Darrick Harvey may well be "Best Player Available" at pick #11, so , NO why would anybody be upset with a pass rushing DE? (26 sacks?) It's a deep draft exactly where the Bills have needs, so the second and third rounders are solid selections for WR and TE.

[PECKERWOOD]

Not mad at all, a little confused by the lack of direction but not mad.

What do you mean by lack of direction? Please explain.

[DraftBoy]

What do you mean by lack of direction? Please explain.

Well we have holes at CB, LB depth, DL depth, WR, RG, QB, and OL depth and we fill a depth posistion before a starting one? We take a guy who is better suited for S in the NFL to play CB for us? Rucker I like but waiting till Round 4 for a WR sounds dangerous. I just dont see how this improves us, other then showing we wasted a ton of money at DE.

[PECKERWOOD]

Well we have holes at CB, LB depth, DL depth, WR, RG, QB, and OL depth and we fill a depth posistion before a starting one? We take a guy who is better suited for S in the NFL to play CB for us? Rucker I like but waiting till Round 4 for a WR sounds dangerous. I just dont see how this improves us, other then showing we wasted a ton of money at DE.

Harvey is not only the BPA but he fills a need. Kelsay and Schobel straight up, just did not get it done last year. Schobel lead the team with 6 sacks which is just disgusting. Harvey provides a solution to that problem.

Reggie Smith is adept at playing both CB and S, he would most likely start opposite to McGee and would probably be our #1 CB in 09. My 1st instinct was to go with Manningham here because of our glaring need at WR, but I think Smith would be too good of value to pass up here. Also, if Simpson has trouble coming back from his injury, you could plug Smith in at FS immediately and put Greer back out at CB with McGee.

Rucker would be an instant starter on offense and would immediately upgrade our passing game, would compliment Royal very well.

Simpson is a guy that would immediately come in and fight for the #2 job, he would also add size to our WR unit. Let me also add that Buffalo WILL franchise Evans next year if we can't get a deal done, you can take that to the bank. Plus, next year's WR FA class is much better than this year's.

Schmitt and Hillis would both instantly be starters if we drafted either.

I look at 5 of the 6 picks that I listed as having GREAT chances to start for us THIS season. The only exception would be the pickup of Sullivan, but either way he would be nice depth behind Fowler incase he starts to struggle. Many people don't like the idea of drafting Harvey because we have big money locked up in Kelsay and Schobel, but at some point you have to cut your losses. I think Harvey would beat out Kelsay for the starting spot by mid-way through the season.

[mysticsoto]

BF, you wait too long for a WR that's going to see a good amt of playing time. We are not talking about a #3 or #4. This is the #2...the one that will be running and hopefully drawing attention away from Evans. I can buy the Harvey pick, but then it all crumbles. Even Rucker...you never get a TE before a #2 WR! And Reggie Smith is more than likely going to play S rather than CB and we have all the safeties we need on the roster already with Whitner, Ko, Wendling, Wilson and forgot the other guys name that was retained...I can accept your DE in the 1st, but we should have a WR in the 2nd and a TE in the 3rd then...

[DraftBoy]

Harvey is not only the BPA but he fills a need. Kelsay and Schobel straight up, just did not get it done last year. Schobel lead the team with 6 sacks which is just disgusting. Harvey provides a solution to that problem.

Reggie Smith is adept at playing both CB and S, he would most likely start opposite to McGee and would probably be our #1 CB in 09. My 1st instinct was to go with Manningham here because of our glaring need at WR, but I think Smith would be too good of value to pass up here. Also, if Simpson has trouble coming back from his injury, you could plug Smith in at FS immediately and put Greer back out at CB with McGee.

Rucker would be an instant starter on offense and would immediately upgrade our passing game, would compliment Royal very well.

Simpson is a guy that would immediately come in and fight for the #2 job, he would also add size to our WR unit. Let me also add that Buffalo WILL franchise Evans next year if we can't get a deal done, you can take that to the bank. Plus, next year's WR FA class is much better than this year's.

Schmitt and Hillis would both instantly be starters if we drafted either.

I look at 5 of the 6 picks that I listed as having GREAT chances to start for us THIS season. The only exception would be the pickup of Sullivan, but either way he would be nice depth behind Fowler incase he starts to struggle. Many people don't like the idea of drafting Harvey because we have big money locked up in Kelsay and Schobel, but at some point you have to cut your losses. I think Harvey would beat out Kelsay for the starting spot by mid-way through the season.

Harvey is just more of the same that we already have a pass rushing DE who is a liability v. the run. Merling is a much better selection.

[eyedog]

Considering our current d-ends can't get to the qb, Harvey is an upgrade rushing the passer. Which is what this team really needs if they ever want to beat New England in the next decade.
But as a default pick I would take Merling after him.
I just don't want to see wr or cb at #11. They can get those positions in the 2nd and 3rd with out much drop-off. There will not be a pass rusher like Harvey sitting there in those rounds.

[ParanoidAndroid]

That part wouldn't upset me, but to follow it with a corner instead of someone like Caldwell or Doucet would.

[Bmax]

Simpson is zooming up boards .. I got a feeling he could go in rd 3.. Heck wouldn't be shocked if he went in rd 2....41.5 VERTICAL ...WOW...


BMAX

[Mahdi]

Harvey is just more of the same that we already have a pass rushing DE who is a liability v. the run. Merling is a much better selection.
I dont agree. The problem is that Kelsay gets a ton of tackles and cant rush the passer. We couldnt stop the run because of our interior and our LBs last year not because of Kelsay. Adding Stroud, Johnson, Mitchell and Poz as well as McCargo starting will solidify the run defense enough that taking the best pass rusher regardless of his ability to stop the run is more important. Our scheme doesnt demand that our DEs are big time run defenders anyways. Freeney and Mathis arent great against the run but as a unit their D gets it done. Harvey is a perfect player for our scheme.

[Mahdi]

If the Bills take Harvey with their first pick I can very well see them trading back into the first with Dallas again to take a WR.

I think there is a strong possibility Harvey is drafted and starts by game 4. Kelsay and Denney would be great rotational guys.

Having 3 well paid DEs for our system is not unrealistic. The whole idea with cover 2 is to invest more money in the DL and a lot less at CB.

[Night Train]

If the Bills take Harvey with their first pick I can very well see them trading back into the first with Dallas again to take a WR.

I think there is a strong possibility Harvey is drafted and starts by game 4. Kelsay and Denney would be great rotational guys.

Having 3 well paid DEs for our system is not unrealistic. The whole idea with cover 2 is to invest more money in the DL and a lot less at CB.

You're not paying Kelsay that much $$ to stand on the sidelines 50-75% of the time. Harvey is a pass rusher who doesn't hold up well against the running game. We already have that issue.

Merling can rotate in at the DT 3 Tech and either DE position. He's known for shedding blocks and stuffing the run, in addition to being a fair pass rusher. That kind of power & versatility is what makes him attractive.

That's the point DB is trying to make and I agree. He's far more NFL ready than Harvey.

[TigerJ]

Merling is a more well rounded DE than Harvey, however, it's kind of tough to spend that high a draft pick on a player that may not be able to work out before the draft.

[DraftBoy]

Merling is a more well rounded DE than Harvey, however, it's kind of tough to spend that high a draft pick on a player that may not be able to work out before the draft.

Oh yea I agree with that, and the only reason I went with him yesterday in the Pick a Day thing is because I hate our draft position.

[Mahdi]

You're not paying Kelsay that much $$ to stand on the sidelines 50-75% of the time. Harvey is a pass rusher who doesn't hold up well against the running game. We already have that issue.

Merling can rotate in at the DT 3 Tech and either DE position. He's known for shedding blocks and stuffing the run, in addition to being a fair pass rusher. That kind of power & versatility is what makes him attractive.

That's the point DB is trying to make and I agree. He's far more NFL ready than Harvey.
So the Giants can pay Strahan, Umenyiora and Tuck but we cant do the same with Schobel, Kelsay and Harvey???

This is a pass rush league these days.

Again you seem to be missing the point. With our upgrades at DT and LB who cares if Harvey is not as good against the run as Merling. Harvey is an excellent and TALENTED pass rusher which is something we dont have on this team. Kelsay and Schobel are hard workers and dont give up on plays but thats about it. Harvey gives us a pure talent that can get after QBs consistently.

The last thing we need is another Kelsay that can play the run and the pass just "effectively."

Were not Jacksonville, our system doesnt require run stuffing DEs, we run cover 2 which means our DEs are pass rushers first and foremost. Our run defense is based on speed and penetration, not shedding blocks 1 on 1.

Again, look at the cover 2 teams in this league, players like Robert Mathis, Dwight Freeney, Gaines Adams, Greg White, Simeon Rice, Mark Anderson, Adewale Ogunleye are not known for their run D and were certainly not great at it whatsoever coming out of college. But they are still part of teams that play the run very well.

At the end of the day Harvey is a much more talented and valuable player than Merling.

[DraftBoy]

So the Giants can pay Strahan, Umenyiora and Tuck but we cant do the same with Schobel, Kelsay and Harvey???

This is a pass rush league these days.

Again you seem to be missing the point. With our upgrades at DT and LB who cares if Harvey is not as good against the run as Merling. Harvey is an excellent and TALENTED pass rusher which is something we dont have on this team. Kelsay and Schobel are hard workers and dont give up on plays but thats about it. Harvey gives us a pure talent that can get after QBs consistently.

The last thing we need is another Kelsay that can play the run and the pass just "effectively."

Were not Jacksonville, our system doesnt require run stuffing DEs, we run cover 2 which means our DEs are pass rushers first and foremost. Our run defense is based on speed and penetration, not shedding blocks 1 on 1.

Again, look at the cover 2 teams in this league, players like Robert Mathis, Dwight Freeney, Gaines Adams, Greg White, Simeon Rice, Mark Anderson, Adewale Ogunleye are not known for their run D and were certainly not great at it whatsoever coming out of college. But they are still part of teams that play the run very well.

At the end of the day Harvey is a much more talented and valuable player than Merling.

:rofl:

I have to laugh at the notion that Kelsay is good against the run. Im sorry thats just not true both he and Schoebel fly up the field and leaves huge gaping holes. I also think your characterization of Merling as another Kelsay is not just wrong its insulting to Merling as a player considering dont play nearly the same game. It is obvious though that this discussion is pointless. We cannot allow ourselves to fall in love with one player and discount all those around him because we like him.

[Mahdi]

:rofl:

I have to laugh at the notion that Kelsay is good against the run. Im sorry thats just not true both he and Schoebel fly up the field and leaves huge gaping holes. I also think your characterization of Merling as another Kelsay is not just wrong its insulting to Merling as a player considering dont play nearly the same game. It is obvious though that this discussion is pointless. We cannot allow ourselves to fall in love with one player and discount all those around him because we like him.
Im not falling in love with 1 player... I am fixated on the idea that we need another pure pass rusher though at DE. Whether Kelsay and Merling are similar to eachother or not I guess is irrelevent. My point is that Merling is not really a big-time pass rusher and that is exactly what this team needs. Not a balanced DE than stuffs the run and is only effective at pass rushing.

I also like Cliff Avril and Quentin Groves. They are not big guys but again in our system we dont need big guys.

Last year Gaines Adams was projected as a 3-4 OLB as well but Tampa grabbed him and he had a great year for them. They also had a good run D.

[Philagape]

With as many positions on this team that could use an upgrade, I wouldn't be mad with any first-round pick per se.
What would make me mad is if opponents still won't respect the pass and the offense stays grounded because of inferior receivers.

[DraftBoy]

Im not falling in love with 1 player... I am fixated on the idea that we need another pure pass rusher though at DE. Whether Kelsay and Merling are similar to eachother or not I guess is irrelevent. My point is that Merling is not really a big-time pass rusher and that is exactly what this team needs. Not a balanced DE than stuffs the run and is only effective at pass rushing.

I also like Cliff Avril and Quentin Groves. They are not big guys but again in our system we dont need big guys.

Last year Gaines Adams was projected as a 3-4 OLB as well but Tampa grabbed him and he had a great year for them. They also had a good run D.

I disagree we dont need a pure pass rusher we need a well balanced end. Schoebel is capable of putting up double digit sacks numbers consistently, how long are we going to be fixated on getting sacks and lets RB's go off for 150 yards a game on us? Fix the last part of the line with a good overall DE, and lets move on to CB, which are really the last two holes on our defense. The need for a pure pass rusher is not here and also you act like Harvey is leaps and bounds better then Merling as a pass rusher, he only recorded a .5 sack more last year. Merling also didnt have near the talent Florida had on D. Merling is the better prospect and Im willing to say I think he'll be the better pro.

[eyedog]

Now your on Merling, what happened to DRC ?

[Mahdi]

I disagree we dont need a pure pass rusher we need a well balanced end. Schoebel is capable of putting up double digit sacks numbers consistently, how long are we going to be fixated on getting sacks and lets RB's go off for 150 yards a game on us? Fix the last part of the line with a good overall DE, and lets move on to CB, which are really the last two holes on our defense. The need for a pure pass rusher is not here and also you act like Harvey is leaps and bounds better then Merling as a pass rusher, he only recorded a .5 sack more last year. Merling also didnt have near the talent Florida had on D. Merling is the better prospect and Im willing to say I think he'll be the better pro.
I think you have too much faith in Schobel and Kelsay as pass rushers. I really hope the Bills FO isnt as optomistic and addresses our pass rush at some point in the draft.

The other thing is that you're putting too much stock into the role a DE plays in stuffing the run in a Cover 2. Our problem against the run wasnt Schobel and Kelsay it was Tripplett and Williams. Having Stroud and McCargo along with Johnson and Williams coming off the bench will/should dramatically improve our run D, not to mention Poz and Mitchell.

Again, cover 2 teams employ pure pass rushing DEs all over the NFL and are still very solid against the run. The facts are there.

[eyedog]

The whole idea of the cover-2 is to get after the qb. The problem is we have only one {overrated} d-end that can get there some of the time.

[DraftBoy]

Now your on Merling, what happened to DRC ?

Unlike some people I dont fall in love with one player but rather see the pros and cons of every player that we could draft and rakn them accordingly.

[DraftBoy]

I think you have too much faith in Schobel and Kelsay as pass rushers. I really hope the Bills FO isnt as optomistic and addresses our pass rush at some point in the draft.

The other thing is that you're putting too much stock into the role a DE plays in stuffing the run in a Cover 2. Our problem against the run wasnt Schobel and Kelsay it was Tripplett and Williams. Having Stroud and McCargo along with Johnson and Williams coming off the bench will/should dramatically improve our run D, not to mention Poz and Mitchell.

Again, cover 2 teams employ pure pass rushing DEs all over the NFL and are still very solid against the run. The facts are there.

That incorrect also, teams avg more yards per carry against us going to the outside because our DE's inability to contain runners then they did to the inside.

[eyedog]

Unlike some people I dont fall in love with one player but rather see the pros and cons of every player that we could draft and rakn them accordingly.

And how does that rank of yours currently look for #11 ?

[Mahdi]

That incorrect also, teams avg more yards per carry against us going to the outside because our DE's inability to contain runners then they did to the inside.
Actually it was our DTs not getting any penetration that gave RBs gaps to run through. If the DTs did their jobs the DEs would have a much easier time of it. Schobel and Kelsay had 57 and 44 tackles respectively thats a lot for DLmen. Schobel was great against the run when Adams and Williams were here.

[DraftBoy]

Actually it was our DTs not getting any penetration that gave RBs gaps to run through. If the DTs did their jobs the DEs would have a much easier time of it. Schobel and Kelsay had 57 and 44 tackles respectively thats a lot for DLmen. Schobel was great against the run when Adams and Williams were here.

Like I said before this discussion is pointless.

[PECKERWOOD]

In our division you need a good pass rush, we go up against a future HOF twice a year by the name of... Tom Brady? In case you didn't know, New England LOVES to pass the football! I wouldn't be pissed off if we took either Merling or Harvey because atleast our FO would be recognizing that there is a problem at DE. I am enamored with Harvey's potential as an elite pass rusher though.. I'm no scout but from what I've seen of him in the highlight videos he is just scary and plus this guy has a knack for showing up in big games, unlike guys like Schobel who rack up sacks during garbage time.. I heard somebody mention Cliff Avril as well, he would be a good pick in the 2nd round if we decided not to go DE in the 1st. It seems like Purdue has really been putting out some good DE's lately.