So I'm trying to figure out...

[BlackMetalNinja]

Op, you named 8 guys we should keep... you've done nothing but ***** about how awful we were this year, though we technically are still in the playoff race until the last week (yes, I'm fully aware they aren't going to make it). So please explain to me how keeping 8 guys and dumping off everybody else we can is going to make this team any better next year? I'd fully expect us to be sitting full out in the basement if they did that.

Exactly who do you think they're going to bring in to play with those 8 guys that's going to turn everything around over night? Or would you just be settling for mediocrity as the favorite saying around here goes, for a year or two until everybody happily clicked?

This is the 4th youngest team in the NHL at 26.5 years old, most of these guys have not grown accustomed to what is expected of them at this point. Obviously some help is needed, particularly in veteran leadership. What possible good does it do to blow up such a young team (give me the "deep playoff run" BS all you want, these guys were 3rd and 4th liners on playoff teams where any extra scoring form them was a bonus, not a necessity) and "start fresh". We all knew it would be a step backwards this year, the hope was it'd be a step backwards for a year and then progress right back towards the top...

Of course, you'd know nothing of hope because everything is "please me right this second" with you. Your plan easily sets this team back 3-4 years at a minimum... you're going to tell me you wouldn't be *****ing up a storm over that period of time when they weren't contending?

I don't expect a real answer, just you telling me I'm wrong and a blind optimist, because that's the only rhetoric you know. Reply or not, it doesn't really matter as I'm not going to be sucked into another pointless argument with you... but I sure am curious to see what this master plan really entails.

[JD]

I think he might have been overexaggerating just a bit.

I would trade off/part ways with: Max, Kalinin, Numminen, Ryan, Thibault, and Peters.

Everyone else serves a purpose. We're off sync. If we could score, Miller wouldnt hold up. If we couldnt score, Miller would be great. It was strange year.

We need a solid backup to give Miller a rest.
We need to sign Miller and Poms long term.

[Mitchy moo]

I think he might have been overexaggerating just a bit.

I would trade off/part ways with: Max, Kalinin, Numminen, Ryan, Thibault, and Peters.

Everyone else serves a purpose. We're off sync. If we could score, Miller wouldnt hold up. If we couldnt score, Miller would be great. It was strange year.

We need a solid backup to give Miller a rest.
We need to sign Miller and Poms long term.

Well thank god they saves ~$5 M just for those events.

[RockStar36]

Oh boy...this should be good

[LtFinFan66]

:popcorn:

[hydro]

How many times will he bring up that we haven't won anything in Buffalo?

:popcorn:

[Michael82]

I would trade/part ways with the following players.....

Max Afinogenov, Tim Connolly, Dmitri Kalinin, Teppo Numminen, Jocelyn Thibault, Mike Ryan, either Jaroslav Spacek or Toni Lydman, Andrew Peters.

I would sign a backup goalie, lock Jason Pominville up to a long term deal, try to get Ryan Miller signed long term, and then sign 2 tough, gritty veteran defensemen to help fix our defense and groom the younger guys.

[Dr. Lecter]

I am really torn on Timmy.

If healthy, he is a deadly force. Problem is, he has not been healthy for two years. I am more inclined to keep him, but understand dumping his ass.

[Michael82]

I am really torn on Timmy.

If healthy, he is a deadly force. Problem is, he has not been healthy for two years. I am more inclined to keep him, but understand dumping his ass.
thats the key. He has sooo much potential and could be such a force for the Sabres, especially on the power play. But he's more injury prone than Rob Johnson and it seems to affect his play many times too.

[RockStar36]

I'd say keep Timmy. He has one year left. If he doesn't work next year, let him walk.

[hydro]

I'd say keep Timmy. He has one year left. If he doesn't work next year, let him walk.

Or trade him at the deadline and get something for him.

[RockStar36]

By next years trade deadline they will know if he doesn't work out. Chances are, by that point, nobody is going to want to take him.

[Michael82]

By next years trade deadline they will know if he doesn't work out. Chances are, by that point, nobody is going to want to take him.
Trade him in the offseason while he still has value.

[BlackMetalNinja]

I would trade/part ways with the following players.....

Max Afinogenov, Tim Connolly, Dmitri Kalinin, Teppo Numminen, Jocelyn Thibault, Mike Ryan, either Jaroslav Spacek or Toni Lydman, Andrew Peters.

I would sign a backup goalie, lock Jason Pominville up to a long term deal, try to get Ryan Miller signed long term, and then sign 2 tough, gritty veteran defensemen to help fix our defense and groom the younger guys.

So you want to get EVEN younger??? I hope you don't expect us to be a playoff team either... By your math, you're getting rid of 8 guys and bringing back 3. That means 5 more guys up from Rochester.

[Michael82]

So you want to get EVEN younger??? I hope you don't expect us to be a playoff team either... By your math, you're getting rid of 8 guys and bringing back 3. That means 5 more guys up from Rochester.
no, I'm signing FAs to fill some holes.

[Dr. Lecter]

Which FA's?

[hydro]

no, I'm signing FAs to fill some holes.
So who is to say there is going to be anything better on the market? Just because it's the unknown doesn't mean it will be any better.

[Dr. Lecter]

At most I sign one FA on defense (depending on Pratt's status)

Weber-Sekera
Tallinder-Lydman/Spacek
Paetsch-Pratt/new low level guy

Maybe one to push Pratt to the role of 7th d-man and pair Spacek with Paetsch. (New guy goes with Hank)

[Michael82]

Which FA's?
not sure who is out there, but we need a Chris Drury type, leader. Plus we need a couple tough, hard nosed defensemen. :up:

[BlackMetalNinja]

no, I'm signing FAs to fill some holes.

Why didn't you say that the first time??? I want to know what all you masterful wannabe GMs have planned here. Give me names, salaries, etc.

[JD]

Personally, I say keep Lydman and Connolly.

Lydman has his **** ups but he is starting to come around i.e. his goal last game. If he gets more involved like that, I'd love for him to stay.

Connolly.... the man is a huge threat, especially on the powerplay. Probably some the best hands in the entire league. It seems that he has moved on from his concussion problems.. I'll admit he does act like a woman at times but after his surgery he should be back in action come fall. I think he will challenge Pominville for the lead in points if he stays healthy.

[Dr. Lecter]

not sure who is out there, but we need a Chris Drury type, leader. Plus we need a couple tough, hard nosed defensemen. :up:

You won't find a Drury type.

But which D-man do you want to sign? It is easy to say do it, but there needs to be a plan. And anybody signed has to fit in the budget after extending Pominville, Miller, Paille and replacing Thibault with a better back-up (figure about $1.5 for him since Thibault is making nearly $1 million)

[raphael120]

It's unfortunate that no one on our roster is going to be considered a veteran leader next year.

[hydro]

It's unfortunate that no one on our roster is going to be considered a veteran leader next year.

Hecht?

[SabreEleven]

Sabres can't even sign their own FA, how are they going to sign someone else's? Plus what NHL player in the right mind would want to play for the Sabres the way this FO treats it's players. Buffalo has become the Edmonton of the Eastern Conference.

[OpIv37]

Op, you named 8 guys we should keep... you've done nothing but ***** about how awful we were this year, though we technically are still in the playoff race until the last week (yes, I'm fully aware they aren't going to make it). So please explain to me how keeping 8 guys and dumping off everybody else we can is going to make this team any better next year? I'd fully expect us to be sitting full out in the basement if they did that.

Exactly who do you think they're going to bring in to play with those 8 guys that's going to turn everything around over night? Or would you just be settling for mediocrity as the favorite saying around here goes, for a year or two until everybody happily clicked?

This is the 4th youngest team in the NHL at 26.5 years old, most of these guys have not grown accustomed to what is expected of them at this point. Obviously some help is needed, particularly in veteran leadership. What possible good does it do to blow up such a young team (give me the "deep playoff run" BS all you want, these guys were 3rd and 4th liners on playoff teams where any extra scoring form them was a bonus, not a necessity) and "start fresh". We all knew it would be a step backwards this year, the hope was it'd be a step backwards for a year and then progress right back towards the top...

Of course, you'd know nothing of hope because everything is "please me right this second" with you. Your plan easily sets this team back 3-4 years at a minimum... you're going to tell me you wouldn't be *****ing up a storm over that period of time when they weren't contending?

I don't expect a real answer, just you telling me I'm wrong and a blind optimist, because that's the only rhetoric you know. Reply or not, it doesn't really matter as I'm not going to be sucked into another pointless argument with you... but I sure am curious to see what this master plan really entails.

The young team ISN"T GOOD ENOUGH. That's what you fail to understand, even as you admit that we're not making the playoffs. You guys buy into this "young team" crap but forget that all except 4 or 5 of these guys were part of at least one of the playoff runs. The experience is there despite the age, and you keep thinking they're going to get better, which makes absolutely no sense.

First, you mischaracterized what I said. I said we should make efforts to keep those guys and see what we can get for everyone else, even if it's not much. I know we're not going to replace 17+ players, but we need to rebuild. The more change, the better.

Yeah, it means we're going to suck next season. But you don't realize that with this current team, what you see is what you get. If we keep it roughly the same going into next year, we're going to get more mediocrity. If we get some veteran leadership, we might be a 7 or 8 seed and lose in the first round. And 2-3 years from now, it will be painfully obvious that the team needs to be blown up (and most of the players will have left via FA anyway for NOTHING in return). Your plan of staying the course will set the team back 3-4 years but it won't even start until 2-3 mediocre years pass.

And I don't appreciate you calling me out then saying you won't engage in an argument- what's the point?

[Dr. Lecter]

What makes less sense is your unwillingness to see that players do not peak before they hit 25.

They peak closer to 30, even when they have early playoff experience.

But heaven forbid you even consider the facts here.

Fact is, these players have not peaked. Vanek, Roy, Pominville, Strafford (you really want to dump him????), Paetsch, etc. will still get better as most players do as they approach 30.

[BlackMetalNinja]

Why, Op, do you continuously ignore the part where we mention that these players are now thrust into completely different roles??? I'm willing to give them more than one damn season to try to fit into those roles. Clearly, as always, one season is enough for you, because it's "please me now" or nothing.

[OpIv37]

Why, Op, do you continuously ignore the part where we mention that these players are now thrust into completely different roles??? I'm willing to give them more than one damn season to try to fit into those roles. Clearly, as always, one season is enough for you, because it's "please me now" or nothing.

they had all year to figure out their roles. What happened at the end of the year? They blew 3-1 third period leads TWICE in a week, gave up a point to Boston, and gave up a goal 31 seconds in the Toronto game (outcome TBD at this point).

They had 75+ games to evolve in their roles, and instead they regressed. Yet, you continue to think they're somehow going to get better.

And I don't know where you get this "please me now" **** from- we were IN THE CONFERENCE FINALS last year. It's not like this was a ****ty team that I'm suddenly expecting to be good- it was a very good team that I was expecting to get to the next level. And it's not unreasonable to expect players to get better over the course of the season- this year's Sabres did just the opposite.

[OpIv37]

What makes less sense is your unwillingness to see that players do not peak before they hit 25.

They peak closer to 30, even when they have early playoff experience.

But heaven forbid you even consider the facts here.

Fact is, these players have not peaked. Vanek, Roy, Pominville, Strafford (you really want to dump him????), Paetsch, etc. will still get better as most players do as they approach 30.

will? You have a crystal ball? Roy and Pominville are one thing but the rest of them didn't get better over the course of the season or from last year to this year. They've shown no evidence of improvement but you're expecting it anyway. That's asinine.

[Dr. Lecter]

will? You have a crystal ball? Roy and Pominville are one thing but the rest of them didn't get better over the course of the season or from last year to this year. They've shown no evidence of improvement but you're expecting it anyway. That's asinine.

I was hoping you would say something as wrong as this.

Before All-star break:

21-21-6 (48 pts. in 48 games on pace for 82 points)

Since All-star break:

17-9-6 (40 pts. in 32 games on pace for 102.5 points)

No improvement?

This team definitely improved as the season went on.

Saying they did not is asinine. And factually incorrect.

[Dr. Lecter]

BTW, and this clearly 100% subjective, but seeing nearly every game this year and being at about 1/2 of the home games the team has played much better in the 2nd half.

Take it for what you will. But I hope you at least admit the numbers (and we agree W/L are what is important) show the team did improve.

Does it excuse the last offseason? No. The bad start? No.

But it shoots to hell the theory they did not improve and that massive changes are required.

[BlackMetalNinja]

Going into the weekend Pominville and Vanek were tied for 3rd in the league for points after the All Star Break... clearly regressing :up:

Back to my original question, since Mikey conveniently disappeared when I asked him... Please do tell me who you think we're going to be able bring in that is going to improve this team so quickly?

As for your crystal ball comment? You must have one too right, since none of these guys are going to improve at all. You KNOW that for a fact somehow? What's the difference between us thinking that they might get better in the next year or two, and you saying they're only going to get worse??? Yet we're the wrong ones of course.

It's a simple matter of you prefer to be negative about everything, and we prefer to try and find some positives... you know, so maybe we can enjoy something once in a while.

[Dr. Lecter]

As for your crystal ball comment? You must have one too right, since none of these guys are going to improve at all. You KNOW that for a fact somehow? What's the difference between us thinking that they might get better in the next year or two, and you saying they're only going to get worse??? Yet we're the wrong ones of course.


I have this question before as well and usually get told that he bases it on history.

Of course if he does that here, he would realize that players usually don't peak before they 25.

[DraftBoy]

Just an idea or two;
Dump-
Ryan
Peters
Kalinin
Thibault

Sign-
Liles
Avery
Orpik
Boucher

Call up-
Mac-permanently

Just throwing it out there

[BlackMetalNinja]

Just an idea or two;
Dump-
Ryan
Peters
Kalinin
Thibault

Sign-
Liles
Avery
Orpik
Boucher

Call up-
Mac-permanently

Just throwing it out there

OMG names! Amazing... Not sure how I feel about those names without looking at more details, but at least you made an effort :up: :bf1:

[DraftBoy]

OMG names! Amazing... Not sure how I feel about those names without looking at more details, but at least you made an effort :up: :bf1:

Thanks! I used an unofficial UFA list so it may not be as accurate but its the one on HFboards.com

I tried to be reasonable and didnt say lets go and sign Hossa.

[BlackMetalNinja]

Thanks! I used an unofficial UFA list so it may not be as accurate but its the one on HFboards.com

I tried to be reasonable and didnt say lets go and sign Hossa.

Like I said, I don't know the numbers off hand so I can't say how I like those names. Avery is probably going to have a fairly hefty price tag for his skill set, but he certainly brings the qualities so many here are looking for.

[Dr. Lecter]

I think the Sabres have a young, albeit less talented, Avery in Kaleta.

[BlackMetalNinja]

I think the Sabres have a young, albeit less talented, Avery in Kaleta.

Indeed...

[DraftBoy]

I think the Sabres have a young, albeit less talented, Avery in Kaleta.

So bring in Avery to mentor him

[OpIv37]

I was hoping you would say something as wrong as this.

Before All-star break:

21-21-6 (48 pts. in 48 games on pace for 82 points)

Since All-star break:

17-9-6 (40 pts. in 32 games on pace for 102.5 points)

No improvement?

This team definitely improved as the season went on.

Saying they did not is asinine. And factually incorrect.


again, short-sighted analysis. Most of that is due to the excellent month they had in February. They were awful in March. March is later than February- hence, they regressed after a brief period of improvement.

Nice spin-job though.

[OpIv37]

Going into the weekend Pominville and Vanek were tied for 3rd in the league for points after the All Star Break... clearly regressing :up:

Back to my original question, since Mikey conveniently disappeared when I asked him... Please do tell me who you think we're going to be able bring in that is going to improve this team so quickly?

As for your crystal ball comment? You must have one too right, since none of these guys are going to improve at all. You KNOW that for a fact somehow? What's the difference between us thinking that they might get better in the next year or two, and you saying they're only going to get worse??? Yet we're the wrong ones of course.

It's a simple matter of you prefer to be negative about everything, and we prefer to try and find some positives... you know, so maybe we can enjoy something once in a while.

Again, you're NOT LISTENING. I said it's going to take several years to rebuild- I NEVER said anything about rebuilding quickly- you said that. It either takes several years to rebuild starting now or several years to rebuild starting 2-3 years from now- take your pick.

I KNOW that these guys haven't shown signs of improvement yet. It's not a perfect indicator by any means, but right now, the limited information we have supports my conclusion a lot more than it supports yours. The "wait and see" approach is a good way to get more mediocrity. you're just hoping these guys will get better with no evidence that they will. They haven't gotten better so far, which is circumstantial evidence that they won't get better- but circumstantial evidence is still more than what you have.

As far as positives, who cares? Did those positives get us a Stanley Cup? Get us into the finals? Get us into the conference finals where we were last year? Even get us into the playoffs? No, they didn't- so what good are they?

This team has been mediocre all season- I really don't see the point in positives that don't get the job done.

[OpIv37]

OMG names! Amazing... Not sure how I feel about those names without looking at more details, but at least you made an effort :up: :bf1:

I hope that wasn't directed at me because I posted a list of names of guys we should keep days ago.


this team is so worthless that it doesn't really matter. Keep Hecht, Gaustad, Pominville, Roy, Tallinder on what they've done. Keep Paille, Kaleta and Weber on potential. Entertain trade offers on everyone else.


http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=149577

second overall post.

[BlackMetalNinja]

I hope that wasn't directed at me because I posted a list of names of guys we should keep days ago.



http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=149577

second overall post.
What I ASKED for... I know... this involves you reading beyond whatever you feel you can pick apart... is a list of names of people you think are going to fill the void for the people you want us to get rid of. Read the initial post of the thread.


Op, you named 8 guys we should keep... you've done nothing but ***** about how awful we were this year, though we technically are still in the playoff race until the last week (yes, I'm fully aware they aren't going to make it). So please explain to me how keeping 8 guys and dumping off everybody else we can is going to make this team any better next year? I'd fully expect us to be sitting full out in the basement if they did that.

Exactly who do you think they're going to bring in to play with those 8 guys that's going to turn everything around over night? Or would you just be settling for mediocrity as the favorite saying around here goes, for a year or two until everybody happily clicked?

This is the 4th youngest team in the NHL at 26.5 years old, most of these guys have not grown accustomed to what is expected of them at this point. Obviously some help is needed, particularly in veteran leadership. What possible good does it do to blow up such a young team (give me the "deep playoff run" BS all you want, these guys were 3rd and 4th liners on playoff teams where any extra scoring form them was a bonus, not a necessity) and "start fresh". We all knew it would be a step backwards this year, the hope was it'd be a step backwards for a year and then progress right back towards the top...

Of course, you'd know nothing of hope because everything is "please me right this second" with you. Your plan easily sets this team back 3-4 years at a minimum... you're going to tell me you wouldn't be *****ing up a storm over that period of time when they weren't contending?

I don't expect a real answer, just you telling me I'm wrong and a blind optimist, because that's the only rhetoric you know. Reply or not, it doesn't really matter as I'm not going to be sucked into another pointless argument with you... but I sure am curious to see what this master plan really entails.

[OpIv37]

What I ASKED for... I know... this involves you reading beyond whatever you feel you can pick apart... is a list of names of people you think are going to fill the void for the people you want us to get rid of. Read the initial post of the thread.

what you keep forgetting is that I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT TURNING IT AROUND OVERNIGHT.

What I said was that this team needs to rebuild and the sooner we start, the sooner we can start winning again. It will take time, but I'd rather start now than suffer through more mediocrity THEN start, which is what will happen if we don't clean house.

Draft picks, prospects, one or two vets to lead them. Start over. And yes, it will be 3-4 years before we're competitive. But we're mediocre now and eventually we're going to reach that level anyway. Start now- don't put up with mediocrity for 2-3 years and start the 3-4 years then.

These players have had an entire season to become accustomed to their roles and still haven't done it, yet you expect that to happen in the future? based on what? What some other player did on another team or in another time? Get ****ing real.

[Nighthawk]

What makes less sense is your unwillingness to see that players do not peak before they hit 25.

They peak closer to 30, even when they have early playoff experience.

But heaven forbid you even consider the facts here.

Fact is, these players have not peaked. Vanek, Roy, Pominville, Strafford (you really want to dump him????), Paetsch, etc. will still get better as most players do as they approach 30.

Lecter, I understand your points about a few of these guys, but please stop saying Paetsch is going to be good...he's horrible and has gotten worse with more ice time. If he is one of the top six defenseman on this team next year, then this defense is not good enough.

[Dr. Lecter]

again, short-sighted analysis. Most of that is due to the excellent month they had in February. They were awful in March. March is later than February- hence, they regressed after a brief period of improvement.

Nice spin-job though.

lol!

March counts, but February does not.

And I am the spin doctor?

God, even when presented with actual data and facts and you refuse to admit anything.

BTW, you still have not answered the following questions:

1. How many players peak before age 25?
2. How can you comment on the team when you admitted recently you have not seen enough of Gaustad to make an evaluation?
3. Do you include Stafford in the dump for anything group?
4. Why are Roy and Pominville good enough? They will get the Sabres more in a trade and they obviously have peaked in their careers and the Sabres did not win with them. So dump them. You apply your twisted "logic" to some players and ignore it with others.

[Dr. Lecter]

Lecter, I understand your points about a few of these guys, but please stop saying Paetsch is going to be good...he's horrible and has gotten worse with more ice time. If he is one of the top six defenseman on this team next year, then this defense is not good enough.

He has had one good year and one bad year.

He played no worse than Campbell did in year two (remember how bad he was?)

I am by no means saying is a star. What he is a 25 year old kid.

[Dr. Lecter]

This team has been mediocre all season- I really don't see the point in positives that don't get the job done.

No, they have not.

[Nighthawk]

After reading this thread, it is clear that nobody wants to read or listen to the other person's opinion. The fact is...you're both right AND you're both wrong. Let's start with BMN...if you think this team will grow into a championship team, then I think you're kidding yourself. This team is nowhere near good enough and it's character and grit is a main concern. Without addressing these areas, then we will struggle to make the playoffs every year. Now, OP...yes, we need to address the problems with this team, but we can't get rid of everybody or we will just be starting over all again. The FO needs to move a few players to make this team better and those players would be: Afinogenov, Kotalik, Paetsch, Lydman, Connolly and Kalinin (should not be resigned). Now will all of these guys be moved? Probably not, but addition by subtraction is a huge positive from getting rid of these guys.

The fact remains, this team is not good enough and too many people make excuses for them (such as "it's a young team") and it's time for this FO to fix their mistakes of the past year and do it in the upcoming offseason.

Just my 2 cents.

[Nighthawk]

He has had one good year and one bad year.

He played no worse than Campbell did in year two (remember how bad he was?)

I am by no means saying is a star. What he is a 25 year old kid.

Paetsch has shown me nothing...where as, at least Campbell showed he could be a good offensive player. Paetsch isn't good offensively and he isn't good defensively.

[Dr. Lecter]

I have no problem with making moves and have said so, even mentioning some of the names Nighthawk has.

But dumping everybody (or nearly everybody) is dumb and pure over-reaction.

[Dr. Lecter]

BTW, as for the character, I disagree. They have character, they need confidence.

[Dr. Lecter]

The FO needs to move a few players to make this team better and those players would be: Afinogenov, Kotalik, Paetsch, Lydman, Connolly and Kalinin (should not be resigned). Now will all of these guys be moved? Probably not, but addition by subtraction is a huge positive from getting rid of these guys.



I am on the fence of Connolly and Kotalik. Kotalik is not that expensive and does fill a role. He also is a 20 goal guy and has 11 on the PP. (as well as being the teams best SO guy)

Timmy? He is so talented it hard toget rid of him. He is so injury-prone it is easy to do so.

As for Lydman, I might rather move Spacek as he is 34.


And Nate we agree to disagree, but it won't break my heart if he goes, but in today's NHL he might be OK as a 6th/7th D-man.

[Nighthawk]

I am on the fence of Connolly and Kotalik. Kotalik is not that expensive and does fill a role. He also is a 20 goal guy and has 11 on the PP. (as well as being the teams best SO guy)

Timmy? He is so talented it hard toget rid of him. He is so injury-prone it is easy to do so.

As for Lydman, I might rather move Spacek as he is 34.


And Nate we agree to disagree, but it won't break my heart if he goes, but in today's NHL he might be OK as a 6th/7th D-man.

Great point about Spacek and his age...forgot about that! However, you've got to keep some veterans on the team...don't we?

[Nighthawk]

BTW, as for the character, I disagree. They have character, they need confidence.

Character breeds confidence.

[Dr. Lecter]

Great point about Spacek and his age...forgot about that! However, you've got to keep some veterans on the team...don't we?

Not if you ask OP. Dump them all!!!! :D

I agree we do need some veterans. But Lydman is 31, a Vet but at the prime of his career. He also has played with Hank for years so that pairing has good timing.

Spacek is a UFA after next season, while Lydman after 09/10. The cap hits are 3.3 mill for Spacek and 3.15 for Lydman.

With the extra year on the deal, I lean towards keeping Lydman.

[Dr. Lecter]

Character breeds confidence.

So does experience of doing something special on your own.

Look at Roy and Pominville growing up like they are.

What is really needed is a player like Teppo who calm the team down when they give up a goal late in a 3-1 game and the other team has momentum.

We might be using different meanings of character, but I look at the team coming back twice last night and also in Ottawa as a sign they are starting to get it, albeit too late.

[BlackMetalNinja]

After reading this thread, it is clear that nobody wants to read or listen to the other person's opinion. The fact is...you're both right AND you're both wrong. Let's start with BMN...if you think this team will grow into a championship team, then I think you're kidding yourself. This team is nowhere near good enough and it's character and grit is a main concern. Without addressing these areas, then we will struggle to make the playoffs every year. Now, OP...yes, we need to address the problems with this team, but we can't get rid of everybody or we will just be starting over all again. The FO needs to move a few players to make this team better and those players would be: Afinogenov, Kotalik, Paetsch, Lydman, Connolly and Kalinin (should not be resigned). Now will all of these guys be moved? Probably not, but addition by subtraction is a huge positive from getting rid of these guys.

The fact remains, this team is not good enough and too many people make excuses for them (such as "it's a young team") and it's time for this FO to fix their mistakes of the past year and do it in the upcoming offseason.

Just my 2 cents.

No, I agree almost 100% with you... You didn't see me say anywhere that I thought this would become a championship team. I've been right on board with you about character and grit, and I've even said as much in other posts. However, blowing up this team and having a fire sale as Op suggest does completely set us back to square one. He thinks this team is horrible, I think it's somewhere closer to decent with a chance to be good if fixed properly.

[OpIv37]

lol!

March counts, but February does not.

And I am the spin doctor?

God, even when presented with actual data and facts and you refuse to admit anything.

BTW, you still have not answered the following questions:

1. How many players peak before age 25?
2. How can you comment on the team when you admitted recently you have not seen enough of Gaustad to make an evaluation?
3. Do you include Stafford in the dump for anything group?
4. Why are Roy and Pominville good enough? They will get the Sabres more in a trade and they obviously have peaked in their careers and the Sabres did not win with them. So dump them. You apply your twisted "logic" to some players and ignore it with others.

So, you want to count the 1 month that they played well and ignore the month before, and the month after, where they played poorly? LOL!

1. The average age of guys on our team is 26.2. You said it yourself- since we don't have anyone really old to skew the average, most of the team is over 25. And how many players get to go to the conference finals once- let alone twice- before the age of 25? You need to compare apples to apples- just because the players are the same age doesn't mean they've had equal experience and opportunity.
2. I don't have a good answer for that, but how much of 2 blown 3rd period leads do you need to see to know it was awful? (and actually I did see the second one in a bar). The results speak for themselves.
3. Yes- Stafford was worse this year than he was last year.
4. Roy is having the best season of his career- Roy and Pominville put up the kind of numbers that this team needs for success- the rest of those guys don't. Or, simply put- Roy and Pominville are BETTER than the rest of them. That's the whole problem- we have a handful of guys who are good enough and a bunch of garbage. Keep the guys that are good enough and dump the garbage- it's quite simple, really. I don't know why you continue to insist that Pominville and Roy are in the same class as Vanek, Afinogenov, Stafford, Lydman, Spacek, Kotalik, etc- Roy and Pominville have proven themselves while the rest haven't, despite experience and opportunity (which you falsely claim they don't have).

[raphael120]

Simply put, Roy is playing beyond his contract while others are playing no where near their contract...

[OpIv37]

No, I agree almost 100% with you... You didn't see me say anywhere that I thought this would become a championship team. I've been right on board with you about character and grit, and I've even said as much in other posts. However, blowing up this team and having a fire sale as Op suggest does completely set us back to square one. He thinks this team is horrible, I think it's somewhere closer to decent with a chance to be good if fixed properly.


I think what I've said has gotten blown out of proportion with all the arguing and debating and me just generally being pissed off at this team sucking.

I know we're not going to get rid of everyone, but I still feel the more changes, the better.

I made my list of guys we should keep- everyone else should at least be on the trading block and we should get as much as possible for them. I know, realistically, we're not going to be able to move everyone- we might move 6 or 7 guys. But I think every effort needs to be made to get rid of those guys and get as much change as possible.

Don't forget two key factors:
1. The well is dry. Over the last two years, this team has pulled up almost all of their AHL prospects. While the team itself is young, there isn't much coming up behind them and that situation needs to be addressed NOW, or else we'll be yearning for mediocrity in a few years.
2. A lot of these guys are leaving after 09 anyway- even you admit this team needs to add key pieces. If we wait until after 09, we're starting over whether we like it or not. This FO doesn't exactly have the greatest record with signing guys they WANT to keep - how do you think they're going to deal with the upcoming class of FA's?

So this team has to address the need for more talent/experience on the ice, the need to have guys under contract after 09, and the need to re-stock the prospects.

That's a lot to try to tackle, especially with minimal changes.

[Dr. Lecter]

2. I don't have a good answer for that, but how much of 2 blown 3rd period leads do you need to see to know it was awful? (and actually I did see the second one in a bar). The results speak for themselves.
3. Yes- Stafford was worse this year than he was last year.
4. Roy is having the best season of his career- Roy and Pominville put up the kind of numbers that this team needs for success- the rest of those guys don't. Or, simply put- Roy and Pominville are BETTER than the rest of them. That's the whole problem- we have a handful of guys who are good enough and a bunch of garbage. Keep the guys that are good enough and dump the garbage- it's quite simple, really. I don't know why you continue to insist that Pominville and Roy are in the same class as Vanek, Afinogenov, Stafford, Lydman, Spacek, Kotalik, etc- Roy and Pominville have proven themselves while the rest haven't, despite experience and opportunity (which you falsely claim they don't have).

The fact you want to dump Stafford proves this is a pointless conversation.

The guy is 22 years old and you are giving up on him. He is in his 2nd season. Season 1 was 41 games, 13 Goals and 14 assists. This year is 63 games, 16 Goals and 22 assists. Actually that is about the same level. So he is not worse than last year.

Also, Vanek is still tied for the team lead in goals. He is 24. In his three NHL seasons he has 25, 43 and 33 (as of today) goals. Dumping him is such an extremely bad idea, I don't even know where to start.

As for Spacek and Lydman, you seem so assume that teams have 6 All-Star D-men ont he team. (and lest you forget, Spacek did play in the SCF).

As for not seeing them (and at least you admit to it), how can you try to tell us who is the problem and what problems caused this slide when you saw 5 or so games?

You have all the answers when you don't even know the questions. You read **** on the internet and know all the answers. It reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists who insist the Pentagon was hit with a missile.

They know something bad happened and assign the cause to something or someone that is not true, all while ignoring the witnesses.

And while you continue to insist Pominville and Roy have proven themselves (and Vanek hasn't - despite similar numbers and production I can't figure that one out) they also did not lead the team to glory this year.

Not everybody is going to average a point a game. Not everybody is a #1 line player. Or a #1 D-man.

You also conviently ignore what a lack of #2 goaltender did to the team this year. As well as the fact, that as much as this team struggled in October and November, they are only about 10-15 points out of leading the entire East and less than that away from being in the top 4.

The team needs to be fixed and needs to mature. It does not need to be blown up.