The NEW NHL- A seller's market

[OpIv37]

Did anyone catch this article in the Buffalo News?

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/story/318242.html

The article goes through Miller's stats over the course of the season:


Miller could use the break. The 27- year-old played a team-record 76 games, going 36-27-10 with a 2.64 goals-against average and .906 save percentage. His numbers fell as the 6- foot-2, 166-pounder wore down from playing 34 games in a row.

There were 22 goalies who played at least 10 games in March. Miller’s save percentage of .883 was dead last. He had a 3.21 GAA, which ranked 21st of 22. By contrast, he was third in January in GAA (1.97) and fourth in save percentage (.928).

Then Miller goes on to basically admit that he wasn't a professional at times and needs to improve:


“I had some moments where I lacked focus,” Miller said. “Part of it is fatigue, learning how to manage that. I’m not taking it as an excuse; I need to learn how to manage that. I think I failed in some situations. I was bad in some situations. Overall, though, I think I battled. I competed. I came to the rink, I played. So looking at me, I want to get a break, mentally. I need a break.”


“I don’t think I started at a high enough level,” Miller said. “I think I was a little distracted. I’m not using that as an excuse. We’re professionals, you just show up. But early on, some family stuff left me . . . I didn’t get out of the blocks. Already, we’d slipped. Midseason, I felt good. Later on, I had some games where I just [made] some mistakes. It’s my job to learn how to manage the workload, get the practice you need, get the workouts you need.

“I had some very uncharacteristic games. I was inconsistent. I had a lot of what I consider bad goals, where either my awareness wasn’t good enough, my focus wasn’t good enough. I learned a lot this year. I really think I’m going to be a lot better next year.”

Yet, despite the stats and Miller admitting his own shortcomings, the article is about keeping him here and what we need to do that. Basically, Miller ****ed up but he's still a hot commodity.

The NHL learned NOTHING from the lockout. Players' salaries are going to continue to go up, and continue to get out of proportion with their actual performance. I'm not blaming Miller for this- he certainly didn't create this situation- he's just the example.

So, the FO will throw money at him hoping he looks like the Ryan Miller of 2 years ago and not the Ryan Miller of this year. Or they'll let him go and overpay some marginal back-up to take his place. Either way, it's a big gamble.

[LABillsFan]

It happens to the best. Miller is mature enough to recognize his short comings this season and yeah, he and the team probably could use the break, wanted or not. I do expect some serious improvement next season, not unrealistic but due to the fact they'll get their rest and learn from this year. Even Detroit finishing 1st. a few years ago got routed in the first round, yes they made it to the playoffs, but they gassed out and came back the next.

[Dr. Lecter]

So he needs to improve and admits it?

I also think most of us knew that his cousin's death was in his mind, at least early in the season.

[Mitchy moo]

So he needs to improve and admits it?

I also think most of us knew that his cousin's death was in his mind, at least early in the season.

Wow, that probably threw him off a bit. RIP.

[raphael120]

Very rarely do players get paid based on what they're worth NOW. It's always what theyre worth because of the past (Miller) or what they could be (Vanek).

[OpIv37]

So he needs to improve and admits it?

I also think most of us knew that his cousin's death was in his mind, at least early in the season.

no, that's not the problem.

The problem is that he admits he needs to improve, but Quinn is already talking about signing him. That's right- we're going to throw money at a guy who admits he needs to improve.

raph is right- guys are getting paid on what they've done in the past or on potential instead of what they're actually worth. It's going to lead to another lockout.

[Dr. Lecter]

I don't disagree that it will lead to a lockout (well, something they can't have another work stoppage or the league will fold)

But the Sabres also have no choice in the matter. They have to sign the guy.

[BlackMetalNinja]

Yeah, because I want a guy that says he's great and feels no need to improve SO much more than somebody that WANTS to get better... You continue to blow my mind every day around here Op.

[Dr. Lecter]

Also look at any of the all-time greats in sports (Gretzky, Jordan, Woods, Brady, etc.) They always talk about the need to improve.

(I am NOT placing Miller in that cateory.)

I really don't think this is a big deal and you are over-reacting.

[RockStar36]

I'm glad he says he needs to improve. I've actually thought the one part of his game that he neds work on is the mental side of things. That being said, he is the franchise goaltender and the Sabres must resign him.

[Dude]

I don't want a player who has no desire to elevate his game.

[DMBcrew36]

Did anyone catch this article in the Buffalo News?

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/story/318242.html

The article goes through Miller's stats over the course of the season:



Then Miller goes on to basically admit that he wasn't a professional at times and needs to improve:





Yet, despite the stats and Miller admitting his own shortcomings, the article is about keeping him here and what we need to do that. Basically, Miller ****ed up but he's still a hot commodity.

The NHL learned NOTHING from the lockout. Players' salaries are going to continue to go up, and continue to get out of proportion with their actual performance. I'm not blaming Miller for this- he certainly didn't create this situation- he's just the example.

So, the FO will throw money at him hoping he looks like the Ryan Miller of 2 years ago and not the Ryan Miller of this year. Or they'll let him go and overpay some marginal back-up to take his place. Either way, it's a big gamble.


I agree with all your Bills-related posts and think very highly of what you have to say in that regard. But I'm going to have to step out on this one, though, since hockey is my forte.

There are two reasons why it looks like Miller didn't have a great year. One, our team defense was terrible (and looked even worse once Campbell left). Miller faced the second most shots in the league and saw more breakaways and odd-man rushes than probably any other 'tender in the league. The forwards need to come back, help more, and be in position for a breakout.

And secondly, he was forced to play way too many games because our backup goaltender was terrible on most nights. But, to be fair to Thibault, he also had to deal with the crappy team defense. Regardless, Ruff knew he couldn't count on his backup and thus Miller had to play to the point of mental and physical exhaustion. Miller was at his playoff weight of 150lbs with two months left in the season. He was riden until he was no longer sharp, but at that point it was impossible to get him a break when we were just in the thick of the playoff hunt.

Nothing has changed the fact that Miller is a very good goaltender who has shown the ability to turn it up in the playoffs and become a difference-maker - THAT is why Quinn has already acknowledged the need to resign him, despite the talk of 'needed improvement.' He is still our franchise goaltender and needs to be locked up - it really is priority #1. And the improvement isn't really all about him. The team needs to acquire a solid backup so Miller can get the rest he needs. Ruff has also acknowledged that he needs the defense to improve next season.

[OpIv37]

Yeah, because I want a guy that says he's great and feels no need to improve SO much more than somebody that WANTS to get better... You continue to blow my mind every day around here Op.

How about a guy who says "I was good but I can still get better" instead of a guy who says "I wasn't as professional as I could have been, I had some bad games and I need to improve"?

See the difference? The guy had a bad season and we're going to throw money at him.

You continue to blow my mind by defending the organization throwing money at a guy who didn't perform.

[OpIv37]

Also look at any of the all-time greats in sports (Gretzky, Jordan, Woods, Brady, etc.) They always talk about the need to improve.

(I am NOT placing Miller in that cateory.)

I really don't think this is a big deal and you are over-reacting.

right but the key difference there is "I'm good but I can get better" vs "I ****ed up so I NEED to get better".

Awful comparison.

[OpIv37]

I agree with all your Bills-related posts and think very highly of what you have to say in that regard. But I'm going to have to step out on this one, though, since hockey is my forte.

There are two reasons why it looks like Miller didn't have a great year. One, our team defense was terrible (and looked even worse once Campbell left). Miller faced the second most shots in the league and saw more breakaways and odd-man rushes than probably any other 'tender in the league. The forwards need to come back, help more, and be in position for a breakout.

And secondly, he was forced to play way too many games because our backup goaltender was terrible on most nights. But, to be fair to Thibault, he also had to deal with the crappy team defense. Regardless, Ruff knew he couldn't count on his backup and thus Miller had to play to the point of mental and physical exhaustion. Miller was at his playoff weight of 150lbs with two months left in the season. He was riden until he was no longer sharp, but at that point it was impossible to get him a break when we were just in the thick of the playoff hunt.

Nothing has changed the fact that Miller is a very good goaltender who has shown the ability to turn it up in the playoffs and become a difference-maker - THAT is why Quinn has already acknowledged the need to resign him, despite the talk of 'needed improvement.' He is still our franchise goaltender and needs to be locked up - it really is priority #1. And the improvement isn't really all about him. The team needs to acquire a solid backup so Miller can get the rest he needs. Ruff has also acknowledged that he needs the defense to improve next season.

I agree with you on the back up thing and I'll admit that it hurt Miller, but Miller himself refused to use that as an excuse. I said in other posts that we all knew that losing Drury and Briere would hurt, but no one thought losing Biron and Conklin would be such a big deal.

But according to Bucky Gleason, the Sabres gave up 5 less goals in 07-08 than they did in 06-07, but they scored 47 less.

So, while I think Tallinder is the only defenseman we have that's worth a damn, the stats really don't show defense as being the problem. There were times when Miller had no chance because of the D, but he also let it some soft goals that were his fault (and he even admitted it in the article).

[Dr. Lecter]

right but the key difference there is "I'm good but I can get better" vs "I ****ed up so I NEED to get better".

Awful comparison.

No, it is a terrible over-reaction by you and you are reaching.

Op: "The Sabres signed Miller?? WTF?? :opiv:"

Op: "The Sabres did not sign Miller??? WTF?? Didn't they learn form last year??? :opiv:"

He is saying he needs to play better and he is part of the problem.

We have an honest athlete and you are *****ing about it.

There is so much to complain about this year, you do not need to make things up.

BTW, what is awful is your ability to twist and turn his words around. You should work for a political campaign.

[DMBcrew36]

I agree with you on the back up thing and I'll admit that it hurt Miller, but Miller himself refused to use that as an excuse. I said in other posts that we all knew that losing Drury and Briere would hurt, but no one thought losing Biron and Conklin would be such a big deal.

But according to Bucky Gleason, the Sabres gave up 5 less goals in 07-08 than they did in 06-07, but they scored 47 less.

So, while I think Tallinder is the only defenseman we have that's worth a damn, the stats really don't show defense as being the problem. There were times when Miller had no chance because of the D, but he also let it some soft goals that were his fault (and he even admitted it in the article).

Possibly, but I think the only real area that Miller looked bad was in shootouts. People in town only really began to get on him when he stopped being unbeatable in shootouts.

[Dr. Lecter]

He also let in way too many soft goals, especially in March. He was clearly fatigued.

[Dr. Lecter]

And, my point was, ALL athletes that are worth a damn want to improve.

If he said he was good enough this year and did not think he had to improve, I would be worried.

[OpIv37]

No, it is a terrible over-reaction by you and you are reaching.

Op: "The Sabres signed Miller?? WTF?? :opiv:"

Op: "The Sabres did not sign Miller??? WTF?? Didn't they learn form last year??? :opiv:"

He is saying he needs to play better and he is part of the problem.

We have an honest athlete and you are *****ing about it.

There is so much to complain about this year, you do not need to make things up.

BTW, what is awful is your ability to twist and turn his words around. You should work for a political campaign.

Yes- I have a problem. My problem is that he DIDN'T PLAY BETTER. If he had played better, he wouldn't HAVE to say that he needs to play better. Why is that so hard to understand?

And no- I wouldn't ***** about losing Miller provided we found an adequate replacement- which we didn't do with Briere, Drury, Grier, or Dumont.

You're trying to compare a guy who admits he ****ed up to 4 athletes who have won boatloads of championships and are all arguably the best ever at their respective sports. And then you try to cover yourself by putting words in my mouth and assuming how I'd react to situations that haven't happened.

I can't believe I'm the only one who sees the flaw in the "He had a bad year- OVERPAY HIM ANYWAY!" logic.

[Dr. Lecter]

I made it perfectly clear I was not comparing the level of success Miller has had to those four athletes. I even put the word in bold, italics, underlined it and put it in all caps so nobody would think I was doing that. What I did compare was their attitudes. Even if he did play better, I would hope he would see the value in trying to get better and not being complacent.

And I agree he did not play well enough and has to improve. And I commend him for admitting it. Too many athletes are too arrogant to do so.

BTW, find ONE person here who has advocated overpaying him. One. C'mon. Find that statement.

What I don't understand is that you complain the athletes in this town are happy with mediocre performances and now you are unhappy that there is an athlete who is not happy with a mediocre performance.

I understand and agree with not being happy with the performance itself. But his reaction is something we should all be happy about.

[OpIv37]

I made it perfectly clear I was not comparing the level of success Miller has had to those four athletes. I even put the word in bold, italics, underlined it and put it in all caps so nobody would think I was doing that. What I did compare was their attitudes. Even if he did play better, I would hope he would see the value in trying to get better and not being complacent.

And I agree he did not play well enough and has to improve. And I commend him for admitting it. Too many athletes are too arrogant to do so.

BTW, find ONE person here who has advocated overpaying him. One. C'mon. Find that statement.

What I don't understand is that you complain the athletes in this town are happy with mediocre performances and now you are unhappy that there is an athlete who is not happy with a mediocre performance.

I understand and agree with not being happy with the performance itself. But his reaction is something we should all be happy about.

without the level of success THERE IS NO COMPARISON. There are plenty of athletes who wanted to improve but just couldn't- yet your example ignores those in favor of 4 of the greatest athletes ever- aka using the exception to prove the rule. There was simply no point or truth to what you said- guys on top of their game who want to improve are completely different from guys who are struggling and want to improve. Attitude alone doesn't win games- performance has to come with it.

I don't have a problem with Miller's attitude- I have a problem with the FO wanting to pay him for his attitude. Of course- they really don't have a choice- if Miller improves this year, he'll be too expensive next year. So the FO has to pay him now despite the fact that he needs to improve. That's the whole problem- the FO has basically no choice but to gamble on him. That situation invariably leads to players making too much money- and hence another lockout.

And BTW- I never said the athletes were happy with mediocre performances- I said the management and sometimes the fans are.

[BlackMetalNinja]

So what you're saying is you're unhappy no matter what... well no ****.

Just once, I'd love for you to make some actual suggestions of what you'd like done instead of *****ing about everything is done or what you perceive is going to be done. And no, yelling fire sale and saying get rid of everybody doesn't count as an actual suggestion. Exactly what do you think this team can do to make itself better since everything they try is obviously not adequate.

[Dude]

Because of how badly the FO has messed up recent contract negotiations, they have put themselves in the position of having to commit more money for players like Miller than they would like (see: Vanek, T.). The only incentive to play in Buffalo right now is money.

[OpIv37]

So what you're saying is you're unhappy no matter what... well no ****.

Just once, I'd love for you to make some actual suggestions of what you'd like done instead of *****ing about everything is done or what you perceive is going to be done. And no, yelling fire sale and saying get rid of everybody doesn't count as an actual suggestion. Exactly what do you think this team can do to make itself better since everything they try is obviously not adequate.

I'm unhappy with sub-par performances- if Miller's performance was sub-par, he wouldn't have to acknowledge that he'd need to improve. What's so difficult to understand about that?

And no, I'm not going to be happy no matter what happens with the Miller situation, because all we have are two equally crappy choices: paying a guy coming off a poor season, or scrambling to find another starting starting goaltender. The only solution is one that's not going to happen: have a goaltender coming off a solid season and keep him going into next season.

I've told you what needs to be done- I told you who we should keep. The rest of the guy should be off-loaded for prospects and young talent so we could prepare to win again in 3-4 years.

With this current crop, all we're going to get is more mediocrity. And there's nothing left in the well because the Sabres have run it dry. If there are injuries this year- or if we lose guys to FA/retirement, there is no one left in their place. This team really needs to re-stock prospects because even if you're right and the current crop gets somewhere, it's over in 2 years when everyone's contract expires.

but we got completely of topic because you and Lecter like Miller's attitude. The point is the FO is going to end up overpaying a guy coming off a crappy season. When players don't live up to the money they make, it burns the team- and if it happens to enough teams, it burns the league- hence, the lockout. You guys missed the entire point of the first post and continue to show it.

[Dr. Lecter]

Maybe you should have the point more clear........

As for pplayers contracts expiring in two years, you are leaving out a very important point. That is going to happen around the league.

[OpIv37]

Maybe you should have the point more clear........

As for pplayers contracts expiring in two years, you are leaving out a very important point. That is going to happen around the league.

go look at the chart- the link's been posted around here several times. Vanek and Pominville and maybe 1 or two more are the ONLY guys under contract past 2010. Now, I haven't looked at other teams, but I'd be surprised if any other team is in that dramatic of a situation.

[BlackMetalNinja]

Shows how much you know about the rest of the NHL then...

Check out Montreal's current situation:
http://www.nhlscap.com/salarynumbers/montreal.htm

Pittsburgh:
http://www.nhlscap.com/salarynumbers/pittsburgh.htm


Washington:
http://www.nhlscap.com/salarynumbers/washington.htm

Boston:
http://www.nhlscap.com/salarynumbers/boston.htm

I can keep going through the whole league... hardly anybody has more than 3-4 players under contract after 09-10. Atlanta has 1... Carolina has 2...

This is what I'm talking about man. You talk like you're an expert on Buffalo's situation, yet you admittedly see far fewer games than many of us. Then you try to compare them to the rest of the league which you know NOTHING about... We clearly have different opinions about the state of this team and it's immediate future, and we certainly don't have to, and won't agree about that any time soon. But at least I know the lay of the land and realize that they really aren't any worse off than anybody else. It's a league wide issue at this point.

[OpIv37]

Shows how much you know about the rest of the NHL then...

Check out Montreal's current situation:
http://www.nhlscap.com/salarynumbers/montreal.htm

Pittsburgh:
http://www.nhlscap.com/salarynumbers/pittsburgh.htm


Washington:
http://www.nhlscap.com/salarynumbers/washington.htm

Boston:
http://www.nhlscap.com/salarynumbers/boston.htm

I can keep going through the whole league... hardly anybody has more than 3-4 players under contract after 09-10. Atlanta has 1... Carolina has 2...

This is what I'm talking about man. You talk like you're an expert on Buffalo's situation, yet you admittedly see far fewer games than many of us. Then you try to compare them to the rest of the league which you know NOTHING about... We clearly have different opinions about the state of this team and it's immediate future, and we certainly don't have to, and won't agree about that any time soon. But at least I know the lay of the land and realize that they really aren't any worse off than anybody else. It's a league wide issue at this point.

Well, I'd get informed but unfortunately none of your links work. Just out of curiosity, have any of those teams been tapping the well as much as the Sabres? Do they have more prospects than we do at this point? It's hard to imagine them having less.

And if it's a league wide issue, it just compounds the problem. Remember, my initial post wasn't about Miller's attitude- it was about the implications of the situation for the team and the league. If other teams are in the same situation, it just proves my initial point: with guys like Vanek and McCabe, for example, getting huge contracts and a big portion of the league unsigned, we're headed to another situation where players' salaries are more than what the owners can afford. That's what caused the lockout in the first place.

[Dr. Lecter]

Here is another link for you:

Click here. (http://www.nhlnumbers.com/)

Atlanta has zero. Buffalo has 3: Vanek, Roy, and Hecht (But not Pominville)
Anaheim has 3.

BTW, Vanek's deal is not nearly as bad as McCabe's.

And yes, if the league does not right itself quickly, there will be major problems and a lockout could bankrupt the NHL.
As for the prospects, while Rochester is low, the Sabres have a number in college like Gerbe, Kennedy, and Butler.

[OpIv37]

is something up with the site? BMN's links didn't work in his initial post but they did in the quote.

[OpIv37]

Here is another link for you:

Click here. (http://www.nhlnumbers.com/)

Atlanta has zero. Buffalo has 3: Vanek, Roy, and Hecht (But not Pominville)
Anaheim has 3.

BTW, Vanek's deal is not nearly as bad as McCabe's.

And yes, if the league does not right itself quickly, there will be major problems and a lockout could bankrupt the NHL.
As for the prospects, while Rochester is low, the Sabres have a number in college like Gerbe, Kennedy, and Butler.

My bad on Roy/Pominville- for some reason I always confuse those two- maybe it's the 9/29.

[Dr. Lecter]

is something up with the site? BMN's links didn't work in his initial post but they did in the quote.

Something is happening with the links and they are not always parsing correctly. If you use the url tags, they work. Personally, I blame Dude.

Before anybody asks, we don't know what it is or we would have fixed it by now.

[Dr. Lecter]

My bad on Roy/Pominville- for some reason I always confuse those two- maybe it's the 9/29.

And they were the two best forwards (along with Hecht) throughout the year.

[BlackMetalNinja]

Well, I'd get informed but unfortunately none of your links work. Just out of curiosity, have any of those teams been tapping the well as much as the Sabres? Do they have more prospects than we do at this point? It's hard to imagine them having less.

And if it's a league wide issue, it just compounds the problem. Remember, my initial post wasn't about Miller's attitude- it was about the implications of the situation for the team and the league. If other teams are in the same situation, it just proves my initial point: with guys like Vanek and McCabe, for example, getting huge contracts and a big portion of the league unsigned, we're headed to another situation where players' salaries are more than what the owners can afford. That's what caused the lockout in the first place.

It's most certainly a league wide problem and it seems that the lockout was essentially all for not. The NHL is going to have a serious issue on it's hands sooner rather than later with the way current contracts are being done. Some of us have been trying to say that for awhile in terms of the Sabres not being the only ones with such problems and that maybe that's why some of these guys aren't getting resigned (no, I'm not justifying us letting virtually everybody walk). Some people rather just ***** about Buffalo's handling of all this instead of keeping in mind that this is going to be a problem everywhere, maybe we're just paying attention to it sooner.

I don't know what the resolution is, but they need to figure something out soon.