The Bills and the State Budget

[YardRat]

http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/April08/10/NY_budget-10Apr08.html

Republican Assemblyman Thomas Kirwan of Newburgh, who voted against the entire budget, said at a time when the state is facing a recession and should be tightening its belt, it isn’t.

“Some of the stuff is just unbelievable -- $2.9 million to keep the Buffalo Bills in New York..."

[Jan Reimers]

Screw Kirwan. He's probably a Giants' fan.

[Captain gameboy]

Lets get up a donation fund to get Kirwan out of New York.

I s'pose he has no idea how much money the Bills generate for the state.

[TacklingDummy]

$2.9 million wouldn't do anything to save the Bills. It will take alot more than that. So I agree with him. What's the $2.9 million for?

[ddaryl]

actually this is really bad governeing here.... a 2.9 million investment could maintain 1000x's the return in investment for WNY and NY's

when the Bills go that will be a lot of lost tax revenue, small business revenue, and jobs associated with all that revenue.

[TacklingDummy]

Senator John Bonacic, a Mt. Hope Republican, and Democrat Assemblywoman Aileen Gunther of Forestburgh, also noted some $10 million for Sullivan Community College and $20 million for Orange County Community College.

Why?

[Captain gameboy]

$2.9 million wouldn't do anything to save the Bills. It will take alot more than that. So I agree with him. What's the $2.9 million for?

Are you serious?

Do you have any freakin idea how much tax revenue comes from that franchise?

[ddaryl]

$2.9 million wouldn't do anything to save the Bills. It will take alot more than that. So I agree with him. What's the $2.9 million for?


2.9 million investment in finding away to keep the Bills in Buffalo could pay back the area quite a bit more if they do find ways to help make this happen via this investment




Senator John Bonacic, a Mt. Hope Republican, and Democrat Assemblywoman Aileen Gunther of Forestburgh, also noted some $10 million for Sullivan Community College and $20 million for Orange County Community College.

Why?

because education is a good thing, and upping educational institutions is a good investment

[Captain gameboy]

Standard New York political crap.

Jump over a dollar to get to a dime.

[TacklingDummy]

2.9 million investment in finding away to keep the Bills in Buffalo could pay back the area quite a bit more if they do find ways to help make this happen via this investment That is the NFL and Bills owners job.






because education is a good thing, and upping educational institutions is a good investment Isn't that what the kids pay tuition for?

[trapezeus]

$2.9MM as a figure in a Billion dollar budget is nothing. I agree, there needs to be support to keep the Bills in buffalo, but $2.9MM isn't anything that keeps the bills here.

Additionally, these politicians need to start addressing why billionaires can't run their business efficiently enough to not need government handouts. if they could run it without our support, then fine, let them move whereever they want. However, we have paid for stadiums, upgrades, and parking revenues. Yet, we have no equity ownership to this team on paper. it's a joke.

I stand by the idea of let them move the bills. it'll kill football in the long run. But greed always wins the short-term and regret lives in the long term. The NFL will rue the day they move teams with strong fan bases.

[justasportsfan]

the bills probably generate more than 2.9 million from canadians alone who come to watch the bills . If we move the bills where are we gonna get that?

[ddaryl]

That is the NFL and Bills owners job.





I don't know what to say with your inability to actually think this through


NFL teams make their cities Buku bucks in revenues and small businesses that depend on those teams. Those monies were invested into the team and Buffalo has benefited from the return on investment in the form of small businesses, jobs, and associated taxe revenues etc.... It also creates a cities identity and its why you see other cities willing to put up multi-million $$$ stadiums trying to atract pro teams... there is a big time R.O.I.



Isn't that what the kids pay tuition for?


Tuitions are betting out of control for college, and if it wasn't for our governemts federal and state investing into these colleges the average tuiton would rpobably be $20K a year... guess how many kids and Adults would be going to college if a 2 year degree cost 40K or a 4 year degree costs them 100K... think about the amount of debt a person would have to take on and how hamstrung they would end up being... It wouldn't be worth it for anyone ot get an education and the entire country would spiral down even faster then it is now.


Just try and use some common sense here with your posts, there is much more to things then just yay or nay.... Your posts are very ill concieved and offer nothing in the form of sane reasoning

[trapezeus]

if the state was willing to put up $60MM in 2000 for stadium renovations, i wonder what $60MM would do for the region spent on building up communities and businesses. If that money was put to projects that developed Downtown and actually draws in a number of businesses, instead of fighting to keep one that clearly wants out, i wonder how we'd do. The state money will always come to Buffalo. If it was spent on items other than a football team, i think the region is better for it.

No doubt, the Bills have an impact on the local economy. I just think it's ridiculous for a multimillionaire cry that he needs support and he gets it. Meanwhile, we have people in need of healthcare and better job opportunities, and people clamor that those people want handouts and are lazy. I don't buy it.

[TacklingDummy]

the bills probably generate more than 2.9 million from canadians alone who come to watch the bills . If we move the bills where are we gonna get that?

How much money does 7 games create for the City of Buffalo and the State?

It shouldn't be the governments job to help entertain us.

[justasportsfan]

How much money does 7 games create for the City of Buffalo and the State?

It shouldn't be the governments job to help entertain us.
we're not just talking about those 7 games. Merchandice etc. etc.etc.

It may not be their job to entertain us, but it should be their job to generate more jobs and not take away jobs.

jobs generate taxes.

[TacklingDummy]

Your posts are very ill concieved and offer nothing in the form of sane reasoning

Handing out $32.9 million dollars without knowing where it's going is ill concieved. I have no problem with giving people money if I knew where it was going.

[Bulldog]

Senator John Bonacic, a Mt. Hope Republican, and Democrat Assemblywoman Aileen Gunther of Forestburgh, also noted some $10 million for Sullivan Community College and $20 million for Orange County Community College.

Why?

Not to go off on a political rant, but why the hell are we now paying for improvements to community colleges? This whole idea that we, as tax payers, should be okay with throwing ungodly sums of money into the education system is complete BS. Much like the government, the amount of waste in the education system is disgusting. These community colleges should be treated as businesses. If you want a new building, there's a little thing called fundraising. We get taxed to no end with both property taxes and school taxes, and now we have to start contributing to secondary institutions? And once the students have used these fine institutions of higher learning in New York, they move elsewhere because they can't afford the taxes we pay to live here. New York State is a complete mess, and I for one am growing very tired of it. Mark my words, this budget will have to be reworked in the very near future.

One last note : this budget represents an increase of 2X the rate of inflation. Way to go New York. Everything is fine though, as long as the tax payers continue to bail the government out, no worries.

[TacklingDummy]

It may not be their job to entertain us, but it should be their job to generate more jobs and not take away jobs.

Agreed.

I would much more perfer the state gave $2.9 million to try and attract that plant they are going to build in Alabama to build tankers for the Air Force.

[justasportsfan]

Agreed.

I'd would much more perfer the state gave $2.9 million to try and attract that plant they are going to build in Alabama to build tankers for the Air Force.
whats the taxes that businesses have to pay NY state compared to Alabama?

You can't get rid of existing businesses and then HOPE to attract other businesses into a state with high taxes.

[TacklingDummy]

whats the taxes that businesses have to pay NY state compared to Alabama?



Beats me. The $2.9 million they are spending on who knows what to save the Bills would be a nice tax break to try lure them here.

But who really wants Billions of dollars in their economy? Those well paying jobs would do more to save the Bills than what the $2.9 million would do.

[justasportsfan]

Beats me. The $2.9 million they are spending on who knows what to save the Bills would be a nice tax break to try lure them here.

But who really wants Billions of dollars in their economy? Those well paying jobs would do more to save the Bills than what the $2.9 million would do.
but they don't have to get rid of a business that already generates revenue for the region in order to attract another business. 2.9 million is nothing compared to the damage due to losing the bills.

[TacklingDummy]

but they don't have to get rid of a business that already generates revenue for the region in order to attract another business. 2.9 million is nothing compared to the damage due to losing the bills.

How much revenue do they generate?

Bringing in well paying jobs would also help the Bills and this whole area.

[Jan Reimers]

It's not just the Bills' games and merchandise that generate revenue. The Bills employ a large full time staff of executive, administrative, operations and maintenance personnel, plus coaches and players. And they hire many others on a part-time basis during the season.

They are an asset well worth keeping from both an economic and a community pride/identity basis.

There is, I believe, $700 million in the NYS budget for upstate development (whether it will be used wisely or at all is another matter), so the $2.9 million earmarked for the Bills is not really taking anything from jobs creation or development.

In fact, knowing New York politics, if that $2.9 million weren't set aside for the Bills, it would probably be used for gardens in the Hamptons or water falls in Central Park.

Be happy there is some money in the budget that can be used to keep the Bills in Buffalo.

[justasportsfan]

It's not just the Bills' games and merchandise that generate revenue. The Bills employ a large full time staff of executive, administrative, operations and maintenance personnel, plus coaches and players. And they hire many others on a part-time basis during the season.

They are an asset well worth keeping from both an economic and a community pride/identity basis.

There is, I believe, $700 million in the NYS budget for upstate development (whether it will be used wisely or at all is another matter), so the $2.9 million earmarked for the Bills is not really taking anything from jobs creation or development.

In fact, knowing New York politics, if that $2.9 million weren't set aside for the Bills, it would probably be used for gardens in the Hamptons or water falls in Central Park.

Be happy there is some money in the budget that can be used to keep the Bills in Buffalo.
bars, beers, chicken wings, hotdogs, etc.etc.

[trapezeus]

i understand the logic that the Bills help the economy. But i think the fact that it's never quantified speaks volumes of how little their effect is. Yes, the Bills are a proud tradition of Buffalo, and emotionally, i'll never forgive the NFL for letting them leave.

And the other hand, like Jan said, there is money dedicated to WNY every year. And the less that goes to one singular enterprise, and goes to causes broader than a football team, the better the region is. Buffalo has a college that is very respectable.

I live in NYC and the number of professionals I've met that are UB grads is astounding. If there was money pumped into the state college to keep these people in Buffalo, that would make a difference. If there was money to attract those businesses would make a difference.

We have some of the best hospitals in the country, one of which is a leading cancer institute. We attract more doctors to work here, you are generating wealth.

We have a new airport that was built to accept growth. We have NYC's international airports flying beyond capacity. If we could become another hub and only an hour away from NYC and 1.5 hour from Chicago, Buffalo again can become a gateway to the rest of country for out of town travelers.

We have one of the greatest natural wonders in the world and a city completely under developed.

There is this logic for Buffalo that we have to hit the homerun. We need a superbowl, or a stanely cup. We need one big business in downtown. One great development on the waterfront. I don't think that's true. We need to have a bunch of singles. And the runs will come.

While I love the bills with all my heart, my pride and joy is Buffalo as a whole. And if an owner and a league want to let us down, we'll come up with something else. I just hope that Buffalonians start calling the bluff of the league and wilson. If it leaves us without a team, it will leave the area significantly richer.

[ddaryl]

Handing out $32.9 million dollars without knowing where it's going is ill concieved. I have no problem with giving people money if I knew where it was going.

again you are thinking inside a box. the Bills need every bit of help they can get to stay put

if the Bills leave I think buffalo will be hurt a lot more then if they invest that money somewhere else.

idecades of trying to rebuild the economy here has failed miserably because taxes are too high and no major companies wants to come here and deal with snow removal and high taxes. Educated people don't want to move to buffalo and get hammered with state income taxes and property taxes that are extrememly high

if 2.9 million can solve those problems then spend it there, but it can;'t

and the FACT STILL REMAINS 2.9 million investment could esily generate 100 times that revenue over the next 25 years with the Bill remainng in Buffalo

[trapezeus]

again you are thinking inside a box. the Bills need every bit of help they can get to stay put

if the Bills leave I think buffalo will be hurt a lot more then if they invest that money somewhere else.

idecades of trying to rebuild the economy here has failed miserably because taxes are too high and no major companies wants to come here and deal with snow removal and high taxes. Educated people don't want to move to buffalo and get hammered with state income taxes and property taxes that are extrememly high

if 2.9 million can solve those problems then spend it there, but it can;'t

and the FACT STILL REMAINS 2.9 million investment could esily generate 100 times that revenue over the next 25 years with the Bill remainng in Buffalo

i'm not being smug, but can you break down how 2.9MM can generate almost 300MM in revenue of 25 years? that would be roughly 400% return per year. if the return is that amazing, they should put in the full 700 of the budget and watch the trickle down effect run wild.

i don't discount that the bills generate income for small businesses. but these businesses aren't here because the bills are here. perhaps a couple stadium restaurants are. but by far and large, bills are just an advertising arm for other companies.

[Captain gameboy]

We have a new airport that was built to accept growth. We have NYC's international airports flying beyond capacity. If we could become another hub and only an hour away from NYC and 1.5 hour from Chicago, Buffalo again can become a gateway to the rest of country for out of town travelers.


Not to be confrontational, but the idea of Buffalo ever being a hub for air transport, as suggested by this post, is absurd.

But....back to the subject.

The city of Buffalo needs to draw a line in the sand, and the Bills are that line.

Without them, you can pull down the blinds.

The NFL is as much a part of the US as any other great, national tradition, and the Bills are as much a part of that cornerstone as the Packers or Bears.

If the New York state legislature doesn't realize that, it going to continue to lose every single economic argument with states like Tennessee that do recognize it.

[trapezeus]

That argument presupposes that the NFL will continue to just rake in cash year after year. I love the game, but there is a breaking point in ticket prices, where my tax money goes, and the fact i can't even guarantee my team is here.

The NFL has used countless government money, has its own antitrust exemption (which it doesn't even faithfully honor at this point), they have games that they can't assure have been played on a fair basis, they have $9BN in debt, and they have owners trying to figure their way out of the CBA because its killing them.

It is entirely possible that the public will lose their faith when you take into account that the economy is spinning its wheels, and people aren't making 20-40% more each year yet ticket prices, merchandise, directv packages go up by as much or more.

I know it sounds crazy because they are still the best run league. But there are cracks in the armor, and their desire to outgreed each other and try to step out of the revenue sharing agreements will bring this league back to earth. And that's a shame.

I don't want buffalo paying a kings ransom for something that may lose a lot of its cache in 5 years. it'll be another humboldt parkway/kensington disaster.

[Captain gameboy]

The NFL will continue to rake in cash.

Choose who's and choose where, but it will continue.

[TacklingDummy]

if 2.9 million can solve those problems then spend it there, but it can;'t

and the FACT STILL REMAINS 2.9 million investment could esily generate 100 times that revenue over the next 25 years with the Bill remainng in Buffalo

I have no problem spending $2.9 million or even $10 million trying to save the Bills. I just want to know what the money is used for. Is $2.5 million of that money just going into a couple pockets? If it is then I have a problem with it.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I just have to jump into this argument.

I do not think that this issue is an "either/or proposition" where it is a choice between NY State using some tax money to help keep the Bills in Buffalo or not using it in that manner and using it to develop the WNY economy.

IMHO the state should be making every effort that it can to do both.

The fact of the matter is that $2.9 million is a drop in the bucket if it helps to keep a business that can generate 100x (and I am underestimating here) that in sales and revenues that will produce more than that amount in tax revenues.

The goal should be to try to invest in attracting more businesses to the area that can produce a similar rate of return on whatever the state invests in them--be it in terms of tax breaks, infrastructure improvements, etc.

Unfortunately, it is in this latter area where state and local political and business leaders have failed miserably over not just the last decade, but the last 35 years at the very least. And, when you take into consideration the fact that there have been a whole host of politicians from both parties who have been in office over that period of time and done little to improve the economic climate in the region, perhaps it is time for the people--the voters--in the area to take a good, hard look in the mirror and ask themselves why they have continued to vote for political leaders who have been unable or unwilling to do whatever is necessary to reverse the out-flow of jobs from the area.


i understand the logic that the Bills help the economy. But i think the fact that it's never quantified speaks volumes of how little their effect is. Yes, the Bills are a proud tradition of Buffalo, and emotionally, i'll never forgive the NFL for letting them leave.

And the other hand, like Jan said, there is money dedicated to WNY every year. And the less that goes to one singular enterprise, and goes to causes broader than a football team, the better the region is. Buffalo has a college that is very respectable.

I live in NYC and the number of professionals I've met that are UB grads is astounding. If there was money pumped into the state college to keep these people in Buffalo, that would make a difference. If there was money to attract those businesses would make a difference.

We have some of the best hospitals in the country, one of which is a leading cancer institute. We attract more doctors to work here, you are generating wealth.

We have a new airport that was built to accept growth. We have NYC's international airports flying beyond capacity. If we could become another hub and only an hour away from NYC and 1.5 hour from Chicago, Buffalo again can become a gateway to the rest of country for out of town travelers.

We have one of the greatest natural wonders in the world and a city completely under developed.

There is this logic for Buffalo that we have to hit the homerun. We need a superbowl, or a stanely cup. We need one big business in downtown. One great development on the waterfront. I don't think that's true. We need to have a bunch of singles. And the runs will come.

While I love the bills with all my heart, my pride and joy is Buffalo as a whole. And if an owner and a league want to let us down, we'll come up with something else. I just hope that Buffalonians start calling the bluff of the league and wilson. If it leaves us without a team, it will leave the area significantly richer.

I agree with a lot of what you say here trapezeus.

I think part of the problem is that the people of WNY simply do not recognize the assets that the region has to offer to businesses and no longer believe that it is possible to keep or attract businesses that can improve the local economy. As soon as you mention an idea that may bring a major business or industry to the area, you will get a whole host of reasons why it won't work or is impossible from people in the region--what you won't get is any discussion of how it might work (or what would need to be done to make it work) or any enthusiasm for the idea, regardless of what it is.

Instead of people in the area working to dispell the concerns that businesses may have about locating in the area, prompted by narrow parochial interests, they have only acted to further heighten those concerns.

For example: It is no secret that, in addition to the high taxes in the state, the high percentage of union workers in the area is seen as a negative by businesses when they are looking for places to locate/re-locate. The concern is that the attitudes of unionized workers, even if retired, in the area would create a hostile environment for a non-union business that might result in labor problems, efforts to unionize the business' workers, boycotts, etc. Whether this is true or not, the impression appears to be that prevalent attitudes of the local population would negatively (in the view of business owners) impact their workers and business ventures.

Once the impression has been created that the attitudes of people in an area might be hostile towards business or negatively impact a business' development, it is difficult to overcome. Somehow, business and political leaders in the area must find a way to reassure business people who might be interested in locating a business or subsidiary in the area that this is not the case. And, one of the ways that they can do this is by showing that the people of the area will not allow their personal attitudes negatively impact a business that they are not involved with.

But, how can anyone do that when, because of the strong concerns about the strong anti-abortion sentiments of some of the Catholics in WNY, the "powers that be" at UB felt that it was necessary for the university to decline when the State University system offered to locate its new nanotechnology department at UB (it went to SUNY Albany instead).

Now, just think about that for a second.

You have an area that is desperate for jobs and new business investment. You have the state offering to locate a new department, that will create new jobs in the area in its own right, devoted to the development of a promising new industry, that is likely to spawn a host of new businesses and high paying jobs, in area. And, the people at the university, who live in the area, say "No, don't put that department here" because they are afraid that the religious attitudes of a segment of the local population will create such problems for them as to make it not worth their while to take advantage of the opportunity being presented to them.

Now, either the people at UB were either stupid or criminal (or criminally stupid) for doing this. Or, there was sufficient reason for them to come to the conclusion that they did.

And, if a university of the stature and history that UB has in the community would feel that there was reason enough for it to come to that conclusion, why should a businessman or corporation, with much more to lose, want to risk investing in such a community?

It's not just the tax situation--which can be addressed with tax abatements. It is also the narrow, parochial and provincial attitudes of the population that do not allow it to see the larger picture and take action in its own long-term best interest. And, the negative view of the area that the people who reside there have as well. It's a combination of all of these factors.

When Ralph Wilson refered to Toronto as a city and Buffalo as a town, a lot of people in Buffalo got upset. And, it was a typical and very predictable reaction. Western New Yorkers--and, I might add, people from WNY who live elsewhere--get very upset whenever anyone says anything bad about the area. They have a terrible inferiority complex when it comes to other cities and regions. Yet, you never hear them say anything good about the area themselves.

It took JP Losman, who doesn't even come from the area, to say anything good about the area. It took Losman to point out how beautiful the area is now and say how much better it would be if the people in the area would just do a few little things to spruce it up.

As long as the winds blow across Lake Erie and the waters of the Great Lakes flow up the Niagara River to Niagara Falls and the city of Buffalo sits a stone's throw from another, friendly country, the potential exists for WNY to attract businesses and good jobs to the area. But, it is going to take people of vision, leaders willing to take risks and give a dollar to get back ten, and a determined, sustained effort by the people of the region to make sure that they and their business and political leaders do what is necessary to create a better climate for businesses for that to happen.

But, it is not going to happen until the people of the region and their leaders shed their negative attitudes and start to see beyond their narrow, parochial and provincial individual interests. And, if they don't do that--and soon, then, they are going to lose more than just the Bills: Buffalo will end up being no different than Akron, Flint or Des Moines or, worse, Virginia City (once the second largest city west of Kansas City, now a virtual ghost town.)

Western New Yorkers may not like it, but Ralph Wilson was right when he refered to Buffalo as a "town"--because that is what they have allowed Buffalo to become and they have been approaching things as if they lived in just a town. If they want Buffalo to become a thriving city again and see the region prosper again, they are going to have to adopt a more positive, determined and cosmopolitan attitude and approach. It won't be easy for people to do that, but, for their own sakes and for the sake of the region, they have to try--it is the least that they can do.

[trapezeus]

Thanks Lifetime. You said some stuff i was thinking but couldn't quite say correctly.

the idea of the airport as a hub currently sits as a ridiculous idea. But if you look at how backed up JFK and Chicago O'hare is, and the fact they have high gate fees, you could conceivably get airlines to offer cheaper flights to the region from abroad, pitch Niagara falls as a stop, and a gateway to other areas of the country.

The reason it works is because of the weak dollar, the european wealth that has the time and money to be in the US. The weak dollar has made the US essentially Europe's Tiahuanna. Cheap hotels, cheap goods, lots of drinking. You could build up the niagara area. It had a reputation as being a honeymoon, romantic location. it's hardly talked about now.

[ddaryl]

I have no problem spending $2.9 million or even $10 million trying to save the Bills. I just want to know what the money is used for. Is $2.5 million of that money just going into a couple pockets? If it is then I have a problem with it.


well then you should be asking that question to a heluva alot more then just the 2.9 million earmarked for Bills-save-dom.

you do realize there is a couple 100 million dollar state budget right...

[ParanoidAndroid]

Maybe NY is going into a recession because we don't produce anything anymore. We don't produce anything because NYS has chased businesses away with incredibly high taxes.

[Bulldog]

Maybe NY is going into a recession because we don't produce anything anymore. We don't produce anything because NYS has chased businesses away with incredibly high taxes.

I totally agree and it's going to be a nasty cycle to break. The more businesses that leave, the higher the taxes get, and the higher the taxes get, more businesses leave, and so on. There is absolutely no effort on the governments part to stabilize the spending, and until they can accomplish that, everything else is just lip service.

[YardRat]

http://ftballiance.org/stadiums/impact.php

In 1996 the teams’ gross economic impact, reflecting total economic activity resulting from the Bills presence in the marketplace was estimated to be $111.5 million. The Bills employed 1,664 people, and total direct expenditures by fans were estimated to be $31.5 million.

Accounting for inflation (using an inflation calculator from the web) that translates to $150.36 million in 2007 dollars.

[HHURRICANE]

NYS State will do nothing to keep the Bills in Buffalo. Hilary Clinton promised 200,000 new jobs for Buffalo and you lost 50,000 instead.

The Bills need an owner that will support the community.

[coastal]

I am totally against any public funding of any professional sports franchise.

How bout $2.9 million for youth sports?

[HHURRICANE]

I am totally against any public funding of any professional sports franchise.

How bout $2.9 million for youth sports?

This is a little naive. 2.7 million will go to organizing and hiring people to run it and 200K will be left for actually doing what it is supposed to do. You can't even get playgrounds for public schools.

[coastal]

This is a little naive. 2.7 million will go to organizing and hiring people to run it and 200K will be left for actually doing what it is supposed to do. You can't even get playgrounds for public schools.You are missing my point, but I do believe the public HAS TO start holding government accountable for the crap it is serving us too.

My point is that we need to assess what is that we value as a community.

Is it professional sports? Is it universal health care? Is it funding for education?

For the life of me, I can't figure out why we would want dime one of our tax money going to professional sports when there are so many other things that need to be done.

[Historian]

Amen, Coastal.

[HHURRICANE]

You are missing my point, but I do believe the public HAS TO start holding government accountable for the crap it is serving us too.

My point is that we need to assess what is that we value as a community.

Is it professional sports? Is it universal health care? Is it funding for education?

For the life of me, I can't figure out why we would want dime one of our tax money going to professional sports when there are so many other things that need to be done.

I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point. However, the Bills generate jobs and revenue for the community.

You can't give money to youth sports when there are no young people in the community because their parents had to move to Atlanta to get a job.

[coastal]

I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point. However, the Bills generate jobs and revenue for the community.

You can't give money to youth sports when there are no young people in the community because their parents had to move to Atlanta to get a job.What McJobs do the Bills bring into the area?

Seriously... fryer dudes? bartenders? parking lot attendants? don't forget the high end jobs that OBD creates... ticket takers.

You don't build an economy on stuff like that.

The Bills should never be looked at as an economic salvation for the region... because it is a flat out lie.

[Night Train]

Right.

2.9 Million for the Bills, which kicks back millions into the local economy.

Meanwhile, we pay his insane state retirement and free medical for life, plus donate multi millions to healthy slobs who milk the welfare system.

Go suck a fat one, idiot.

[coastal]

Right.

2.9 Million for the Bills, which kicks back millions into the local economy.

Meanwhile, we pay his insane state retirement and free medical for life, plus donate multi millions to healthy slobs who milk the welfare system.

Go suck a fat one, idiot. Millions into the local economy, huh?

How much of that you seeing?

[Bill Brasky]

Thanks Lifetime. You said some stuff i was thinking but couldn't quite say correctly.

the idea of the airport as a hub currently sits as a ridiculous idea. But if you look at how backed up JFK and Chicago O'hare is, and the fact they have high gate fees, you could conceivably get airlines to offer cheaper flights to the region from abroad, pitch Niagara falls as a stop, and a gateway to other areas of the country.

The reason it works is because of the weak dollar, the european wealth that has the time and money to be in the US. The weak dollar has made the US essentially Europe's Tiahuanna. Cheap hotels, cheap goods, lots of drinking. You could build up the niagara area. It had a reputation as being a honeymoon, romantic location. it's hardly talked about now.
Sorry, gotta interject here.

As a person who flies weekly out of Buffalo, BNIA at this point cannot sustain increased traffic.

1 - there are not enough services in the airport to deal with an influx of new fliers. they don't even have a legit restaurant in the airport (unless you count the landmark grille as one). There is little-to-nothing going on inside that place. Fly to Detroit or Atlanta... you'll see what I mean.

2 - the weather here crushes any dreams of being a major hub. the airport has very few flights daily compared to other airports, yet can't ever seem to get flights out on time. i don't even want to think of what it would be like in the event we get a major storm in december/january. thousands of people stranded in a small airport with little to no services does not equal a fun time.

3 - parking would have to be expanded, and at this point the only way to do that is build garages.

4 - little to no hotels near the airport makes it a major inconvenience for people going in/out or laying over.

[TacklingDummy]

What McJobs do the Bills bring into the area?

Seriously... fryer dudes? bartenders? parking lot attendants? don't forget the high end jobs that OBD creates... ticket takers.

You don't build an economy on stuff like that.

The Bills should never be looked at as an economic salvation for the region... because it is a flat out lie.

Agreed, how many people own homes in this area due to the Bills, a couple of dozen?

I'd rather see a place that employees 500-600 people that pays around $15 to $20 per hour.

[HHURRICANE]

What McJobs do the Bills bring into the area?

Seriously... fryer dudes? bartenders? parking lot attendants? don't forget the high end jobs that OBD creates... ticket takers.

You don't build an economy on stuff like that.

The Bills should never be looked at as an economic salvation for the region... because it is a flat out lie.

Uhhh, the economic impact is just a little more complex than this. I think restaurnat and hotel owners might feel differently. People that own stores that sell the apparael. The rental car agnecies. Sahlens employees. Should I keep going?

Are you actually a Bills fan?

[HHURRICANE]

Agreed, how many people own homes in this area due to the Bills, a couple of dozen?

I'd rather see a place that employees 500-600 people that pays around $15 to $20 per hour.

And NY State is going to make this happen? Let's see, don't give money to an industry that currently employs people and impacts the economy or talk about a ficticious situation that will never happen.

I run a successful company down here in Atlanta. As the majority share holder who do I call in NY state to give me the incentives to come up there. My wife met with the mayor of Buffalo and he had no answers. None. nada.

This was after a speech where he said we need people to stay and invest in the local economy.

[Bill Brasky]

I'd rather see a place that employees 500-600 people that pays around $15 to $20 per hour.
Oh, so you want major-city development? That would require the construction of new buildings... that look nice and not run-down.... housing in the downtown core... This of course would destroy the "historically significant structures of the city"... aka the abandoned ****holes that are nothing but an eyesore, yet continue to remain thanks to special interest groups who have nothing better to ***** about.

/sarcasm off.

[trapezeus]

Sorry, gotta interject here.

As a person who flies weekly out of Buffalo, BNIA at this point cannot sustain increased traffic.

1 - there are not enough services in the airport to deal with an influx of new fliers. they don't even have a legit restaurant in the airport (unless you count the landmark grille as one). There is little-to-nothing going on inside that place. Fly to Detroit or Atlanta... you'll see what I mean.

2 - the weather here crushes any dreams of being a major hub. the airport has very few flights daily compared to other airports, yet can't ever seem to get flights out on time. i don't even want to think of what it would be like in the event we get a major storm in december/january. thousands of people stranded in a small airport with little to no services does not equal a fun time.

3 - parking would have to be expanded, and at this point the only way to do that is build garages.

4 - little to no hotels near the airport makes it a major inconvenience for people going in/out or laying over.

I also fly in and out of Buffalo regularly. I hear what you are saying about its size and the hotels. but i think that is space for jobs to be developed. obviously the airport would need to be increased big time. i remember when it was renovated, that they built it to be expanded. Probably not to the length that can support major hub, but it can be expanded to increase the flow of traffic. and recent studies have show that southwest and jetblue's presence has increased the people flying out of buffalo and making the airport one of the few feel good stories in the region as it makes a lot of money.

Weather delay aren't that bad in Buffalo. I think the delays of taking off in NYC is absolutely crippling from over congestion. If traffic flow picks up, hotels will come. And expansion will come.

My idea isn't to all of a sudden become a hub. It's to grow the airports capabilities. It has the space, and the more people who can come in will generate hotel business, airport jobs, tourism dollars for niagara falls.

And if the flow looks steady enough, new entreprenurial ideas come to Niagara falls, some businesses look at getting to buffalo for their businesses since there are more locations that fly direct in and out. The lower cost of living still is attractive. I use to work for Citigroup in NYC several years ago in mutual fund aspect. They viewed the cheaper jobs as a way to move some functions to Buffalo and out of NYC.

I guess my point is similar to Coastal's. government money needs to help create opportunities here in the uber rich can't hold a footbal team hostage. if he really wants to move it and leave a very dedicated fan base behind, that's for him to decide. our politicians should talk sense into him, but giving him handouts should be more offensive to voters that people who sit on measly welfare and medicaid checks.

[coastal]

Uhhh, the economic impact is just a little more complex than this. I think restaurnat and hotel owners might feel differently. People that own stores that sell the apparael. The rental car agnecies. Sahlens employees. Should I keep going?

Are you actually a Bills fan?Sahlens employees?

Are you sure you really want to go on?

What you are talking about is a service related industry that is impacted for all of 8 days (7 if you count the Toronto game) a year.

I'm sure those 7 days a year are what we should have our tax payers monies focussed towards building an economy on.

And your last question is what is driving your thought process... you are a fan. Me too in spite of what your emotions are telling you. But under no certain circumstances do I confuse my love of the Buffalo Bills for what should be with our tax payers monies. To put it into football or any other pro sport is a ****ing waste of time.

And if you simply can't look at it that way because the Bills are just so much a part of your human existence, try this... how entertaining have they been for the last decade? If I'm a taxpayer, I'd be pissed. Time to write my congressman and demand that they draft Devin Thomas and turn this mother ****er around.

[coastal]

I guess my point is similar to Coastal's. government money needs to help create opportunities here in the uber rich can't hold a footbal team hostage. if he really wants to move it and leave a very dedicated fan base behind, that's for him to decide. our politicians should talk sense into him, but giving him handouts should be more offensive to voters that people who sit on measly welfare and medicaid checks.damn right!

[trapezeus]

Sahlens employees?

Are you sure you really want to go on?

What you are talking about is a service related industry that is impacted for all of 8 days (7 if you count the Toronto game) a year.

I'm sure those 7 days a year are what we should have our tax payers monies focussed towards building an economy on.

And your last question is what is driving your thought process... you are a fan. Me too in spite of what your emotions are telling you. But under no certain circumstances do I confuse my love of the Buffalo Bills for what should be with our tax payers monies. To put it into football or any other pro sport is a ****ing waste of time.

And if you simply can't look at it that way because the Bills are just so much a part of your human existence, try this... how entertaining have they been for the last decade? If I'm a taxpayer, I'd be pissed. Time to write my congressman and demand that they draft Devin Thomas and turn this mother ****er around.

i'd have thanked this post a bunch of times, if allowed. i am not doubting that the bills give money back to the community through charity and through smaller minimum wage jobs. i also don't doubt that the hotels and bus companies that ship the players back and forth don't make money.

But in terms of finding higher wage jobs that drive an economy, thte bills don't contribute. and by demanding $60MM+ for the stadium it takes it away from tax breaks to say alternative fuel companies. There are the windmills in lackawana, and there is talk about converting the old grain mills into useful corn ethanol production.

Instead of crying that we lost the blue collar jobs, we should go out and showcase that we have one of the best undergrad and graduate programs for a state school. We have the intellectual capacity. Let's give them a reason to stay. Let's get buffalo to a new era and leave the blue collar times behind.

As for Ralph, i think if higher paying white collar jobs came and those companies bought boxes, the problem is solved. Although, i maintain that i don't like that football is starting to shrink stadiums to get more boxes. this is leaving a lot of cities like NY with kids who have never gone to a game, or go so infrrequently that they don't really care. meanwhile buffalo has affordable tickets and 70,000 seats. if the NFL keeps shutting out the actual consumers for the companies who buy boxes, their fanbase is going to change pretty quickly in the next 10 years.

[YardRat]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/11/nyregion/11pork.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

The list of recipients is, on some level, a pocket guide to the density of New York civic life. There are churches and block associations, centers for the elderly and immigrant groups, dance troupes and at least one junior circus. Hundreds of thousands of dollars go to youth sports teams, from the Amityville Little League to the Wantagh Football Club.

Are some of you missing part of the point? If the Bills were to move before the start of next season, what's going to replace the 150mil-plus dollars they'll generate by being here?

[TacklingDummy]

Oh, so you want major-city development? That would require the construction of new buildings... that look nice and not run-down.... housing in the downtown core... This of course would destroy the "historically significant structures of the city"... aka the abandoned ****holes that are nothing but an eyesore, yet continue to remain thanks to special interest groups who have nothing better to ***** about.

/sarcasm off.

I'd rather spend the $2.9 million fixing things up or tearing them down or tax break to lure good paying jobs here.

[HHURRICANE]

I'd rather spend the $2.9 million fixing things up or tearing them down or tax break to lure good paying jobs here.

Your argument is completely flawed. The 2.9 million goes to the Bills or it evaporates.

The Hilary Clintin bandwagon is in full gear here today. I just saw some one post about alternive energy jobs in Lackawana.

Ethanol is actually driving energy and commodity prices up, not down. I lived through the 70's when people were putting solar panels on their houses. How did that turn out?

If you want real jobs it starts by getting rid of the taxes and red tape in NY. Without that this is a dumb conversation.

[trapezeus]

but was there an unwinnable war with the sun in the 70's?

[trapezeus]

also, in terms of the bills leaving, i have a feeling the college UB Bulls circuit gets amped up pretty quickly. i feel the Bills fanbase, turns to college football, and the college program has a reason to go after making a much better division 1 team.

also i believe people will continue to eat hot dogs from teds, and buy merchandise from the malls. New Era cap will continue to hold its licensing agreements with Major league baseball and other leagues and continue to bring in money.

[TacklingDummy]

Your argument is completely flawed. The 2.9 million goes to the Bills or it evaporates..





If you want real jobs it starts by getting rid of the taxes and red tape in NY. Without that this is a dumb conversation.

Where is the $2.9 million coming from? Taxes?

[Bill Brasky]

I'd rather spend the $2.9 million fixing things up or tearing them down or tax break to lure good paying jobs here.

I was agreeing with you... to an extent.

One of the biggest problems this area faces is the constant tug-of-war syndrome... Half the populus wants real, legit development to help advance the area and the economy, and the other half wants to preserve a 200 year old tree because Susan B Anthony sat underneath it for 2 hours on a summer day.

[jamze132]

Screw Kirwan. He's probably a Giants' fan.
I think he's a Jet's fan and pissed we had their number last year...

[Jan Reimers]

I think he's a Jet's fan and pissed we had their number last year...
Probably goes either way.