Jim Miller on Sirius did a nice job of criticizing Wilson.

[HHURRICANE]

A bunch of callers called to complain about how the Jerry Jones of the world are ruining the league and potentially destroying shared revenue.

Jim Miller made a point of how owners, like Ralph Wilson, were not doing enough to maximize their own revenue base and specifically brought the Stadium naming rights.

Ralph Wilson is among the top 10 in net income derived from owning an NFL team.

I think Jim Miller's point is that to have revenue sharing every owner has to be willing to maximize the revenue for their respective teams. Has Ralph done that? No.

If 2 million dollars comes from naming the stadium than name the damn stadium.

[Dr. Lecter]

This has been discussed numerous times.

Here is a summary:

1. Companies are getting out of the stadium rights business. There is not the ROI on it. This is especially true on smaller markets. Buffalo, Jacksonville, and Cleveland have not sold the stadium name.
2. I am not sure how this works, but remember the Bills do not own the stadium. Erie County does. I would assume that they would have a say in the naming of the stadium and any money made off the naming rights.
3. There is not much of a corporate presence in the Buffalo/WNY to purchase those rights even if they are available.

In short, it sounds easy on the surface, but in practice is not so easy.

[DraftBoy]

This has been discussed numerous times.

Here is a summary:

1. Companies are getting out of the stadium rights business. There is not the ROI on it. This is especially true on smaller markets. Buffalo, Jacksonville, and Cleveland have not sold the stadium name.
2. I am not sure how this works, but remember the Bills do not own the stadium. Erie County does. I would assume that they would have a say in the naming of the stadium and any money made off the naming rights.
3. There is not much of a corporate presence in the Buffalo/WNY to purchase those rights even if they are available.

In short, it sounds easy on the surface, but in practice is not so easy.

Im not arguing but the Sabres seemed to find one in HSBC Arena, I dont see how the Bills couldn't find one...

[Dr. Lecter]

Im not arguing but the Sabres seemed to find one in HSBC Arena, I dont see how the Bills couldn't find one...

If you go to downtown Buffalo, there are 2 or 3 big buildings with a major corporate presence. HSBC, which is already tied to the Sabres, Rich products, who is not interested and Labatt's who the NFL would frown on (i.e. a beer company) and they also just moved in.

Not to mention, the naming rights to the arena probably get the Sabres peanuts (I would guess less than $1 million per) if anything.

[DraftBoy]

If you go to downtown Buffalo, there are 2 or 3 big buildings with a major corporate presence. HSBC, which is already tied to the Sabres, Rich products, who is not interested and Labatt's who the NFL would frown on (i.e. a beer company) and they also just moved in.

Not to mention, the naming rights to the arena probably get the Sabres peanuts (I would guess less than $1 million per) if anything.

Cool! :up:

[Ickybaluky]

1. Companies are getting out of the stadium rights business. There is not the ROI on it. This is especially true on smaller markets. Buffalo, Jacksonville, and Cleveland have not sold the stadium name.

This is a crock. If anything, there are even more corporate sponsorships going on than ever, including naming rights. Jerry Jones is talking about getting $750M from AT&T on the new Dallas stadium. In the NHL, they are painting logos buried an inch under the ice.

You are going to see more an more corporate logos as time goes on. This includes on the stadia, fields and uniforms. It is a fast-growing trend, that will continue to increase and generate more revenue.

[Mitchy moo]

This is a crock. If anything, there are even more corporate sponsorships going on than ever, including naming rights. Jerry Jones is talking about getting $750M from AT&T on the new Dallas stadium. In the NHL, they are painting logos buried an inch under the ice.

You are going to see more an more corporate logos as time goes on. This includes on the stadia, fields and uniforms. It is a fast-growing trend, that will continue to increase and generate more revenue.


Whoa, $750M?? Geez, that might pay the stadium off.

[don137]

A bunch of callers called to complain about how the Jerry Jones of the world are ruining the league and potentially destroying shared revenue.

Jim Miller made a point of how owners, like Ralph Wilson, were not doing enough to maximize their own revenue base and specifically brought the Stadium naming rights.

Ralph Wilson is among the top 10 in net income derived from owning an NFL team.

I think Jim Miller's point is that to have revenue sharing every owner has to be willing to maximize the revenue for their respective teams. Has Ralph done that? No.

If 2 million dollars comes from naming the stadium than name the damn stadium.

Your right he should sell the naming rights to the stadium however what should happen IMO is if Ralph does not decide to sell the naming rights he should get a little less of the revenue that is shared as a result. There are certain things owners can do to maximize revenue and selling the naming rights is one of them. If a owner chooses to not sell the naming rights he should just forfeit a small piece of the pie he receives as a result of revenue sharing but let that be his choice so it hurts Wilson and not the owners that did sell their naming rights. For the well being of the league revenue sharing is necessary but Wilson should be penalized for not selling his naming rights but do not do revenue sharing because Ralph did not sell the naming rights is ludicrous.

[bigbub2352]

Labatts Stadium, they would do it in a second

And i would drink to that!!!!!!!!!!

[Tiburon1724]

Maybe if they named it John Labatt Stadium they could get away with it since it's then being named after a person! New Era Stadium perhaps?

[hydro]

3. There is not much of a corporate presence in the Buffalo/WNY to purchase those rights even if they are available.


Why does the company have to be centered in Buffalo? Like say Microsoft wanted naming rights. Just because they aren't centered in Buffalo doesn't mean that wouldn't get there name repeated daily which helps exposure.

[Jeff1220]

I still question whether they can sell/profit from the naming rights since they don't own the stadium. Anyone?

[Mitchy moo]

Maybe if they named it John Labatt Stadium they could get away with it since it's then being named after a person! New Era Stadium perhaps?

Hiroshima Toyota Stadium, LOL.

[DraftBoy]

I still question whether they can sell/profit from the naming rights since they don't own the stadium. Anyone?

You raise a very good point, and one I cant answer

[DrGraves]

I mean even if it isn't alot shouldn't you take it. I mean if I offer 5 bucks to put my name on the stadium they should do it, until someone makes a better offer. DrGraves stadium home of the bills, for now.

[Jan Reimers]

I think the county and the Bills could reach whatever agreement they thought fair on any revenue derived from naming rights. I understand the Bills have a sweetheart lease deal on the stadium now, so they might get some or all of any new revenues, depending on negotiations with the county.

[FinFaninBuffalo]

I still question whether they can sell/profit from the naming rights since they don't own the stadium. Anyone?

Who do you think decided to name it Ralph Wilson Stadium?

Also, the Bills have a lot of control over the use of the stadium. They basically control it, despite the fact that the tax payers paid for it.

[yordad]

If you go to downtown Buffalo, there are 2 or 3 big buildings with a major corporate presence. HSBC, which is already tied to the Sabres, Rich products, who is not interested and Labatt's who the NFL would frown on (i.e. a beer company) and they also just moved in.

Not to mention, the naming rights to the arena probably get the Sabres peanuts (I would guess less than $1 million per) if anything.That sounds like a whole lot of speculating (?).

[RockStar36]

I know what people are saying but I actually like that the Ralph doesn't have a corporate sponsor. Those company named stadiums give me a headache.

[SabreEleven]

They need to go back to Rich Stadium.

[Dr. Lecter]

That sounds like a whole lot of speculating (?).

The NFL stays away from alcohol related endorsements. For examle, current players are not allowed to appear in alcohol commercials.

Rich products was not interested in renewing their naming rights when the deal expired in 1998.

The last one is speculation, albeit well-informed and fairly logical speculation.

[theanswer74]

If you go to downtown Buffalo, there are 2 or 3 big buildings with a major corporate presence. HSBC, which is already tied to the Sabres, Rich products, who is not interested and Labatt's who the NFL would frown on (i.e. a beer company) and they also just moved in.

Not to mention, the naming rights to the arena probably get the Sabres peanuts (I would guess less than $1 million per) if anything.

Baseball has Coors field and Miller Park.

But your right, Sabres only get $800,000.

http://espn.go.com/sportsbusiness/s/stadiumnames.html

[Goobylal]

Jim Miller, the guy who got busted for steroids and claimed he took an OTC diet pill? Yeah, real credibility there.

[YardRat]

Ralph Wilson is among the top 10 in net income derived from owning an NFL team.

I'd like to see some documentation on that.

Wouldn't surprise me if it were true, especially considering some of the debt many of the newer owners have racked up buying the teams, building stadiums, etc, but even if that is the case maybe the Jones of the NFL world should be paying down their current debt instead of throwing cash at players and coaches, construction, etc.

Maybe Jerry doesn't want Ralph to share in his revenue, but I'm sure Ralph doesn't appreciate being forced to spend more money just so Jones can be less financially responsible.

[Nighthawk]

It does not matter if a company is in the WNY area when it comes to naming the stadium. You don't think that you could get another corporation to have their name on one of 32 NFL stadiums??? If Ralphy wanted too, he could get a company to buy the naming rights to the stadium. Too many people on this board are too closed minded and see things in the small picture and not the big picture. The Bills are an NFL franchise and that alone makes them VERY attractive as an advertising avenue for big corporations. Do not forget that every game is seen on TV, so that name will be out there, across the nation, every week. Seems like a good idea...if I was a CEO of a company!

[theanswer74]

It does not matter if a company is in the WNY area when it comes to naming the stadium. You don't think that you could get another corporation to have their name on one of 32 NFL stadiums??? If Ralphy wanted too, he could get a company to buy the naming rights to the stadium. Too many people on this board are too closed minded and see things in the small picture and not the big picture. The Bills are an NFL franchise and that alone makes them VERY attractive as an advertising avenue for big corporations. Do not forget that every game is seen on TV, so that name will be out there, across the nation, every week. Seems like a good idea...if I was a CEO of a company!

The big picture is that money generated from naming rights wouldnt help save the Bills.

[YardRat]

It's humorous how this issue has come full circle...Ralph at one time was considered a greedy, corporate sell-out, money-whore when he was the first to sell the naming rights to the Ralph.

[Nighthawk]

The big picture is that money generated from naming rights wouldnt help save the Bills.

No, but you have to maximize your revenue...this is a way to do so. This team makes plenty of money to survive and prosper in the NFL.

[theanswer74]

No, but you have to maximize your revenue...this is a way to do so. This team makes plenty of money to survive and prosper in the NFL.

Its the direction the NFL is heading which is scary. With all these new stadiums piling up money for teams, Buffalo will soon be faded out. Just look at this new Dallas Cowboy stadium. 200 or so luxury suites, compared to the 70 or so suites the Bills have at Ralph Wilson Stadium. The worst part about it is Jerry Jones can sell these suites at almost any price, Ralph Wilson and the Bills have trouble selling out their suites at the cheapest prices in the NFL.

[Goobylal]

No, but you have to maximize your revenue...this is a way to do so. This team makes plenty of money to survive and prosper in the NFL.
Only because Ralph paid $25K for the team over 40 years ago. For a guy/group who will need to plunk down close to, if not over, $800M, it's a completely different story. And it's not like $1.5M a year in naming rights will help anything. The Buffalo market cannot support the price levels towards which the NFL is moving.

[HHURRICANE]

The bottom line is that the Bills don't need to leave Buffalo when the owner nets 15 million a year.

Whats the problem? It's not like the team isn't making money so the argumnet is such a joke.

[HHURRICANE]

I'd like to see some documentation on that.



Our income in 2006 ranked 12th in the league but our revenue was 25th. Explain to me how we aren't surviving.



08.31.06, 6:00 PM ET

<LINK href="http://images.forbes.com/css/lists/30/style.css" type=text/css rel=stylesheet>
<FORM name=listnav1><SELECT onchange=jumpNav(this.form); name=jumpSelect> <OPTION value=06nfl_NFL-Team-Valuations_Income.html selected>Page 1</OPTION> <OPTION value=06nfl_NFL-Team-Valuations_Income_2.html>Page 2</OPTION></SELECT> </FORM><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=bottom align=middle><TD class=headerow>Rank (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_NFL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html)</TD><TD class=headerow>Team (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_NFL-Team-Valuations_MetroArea.html)</TD><TD class=headerow>Current Value ($mil) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_NFL-Team-Valuations_Value.html)</TD><TD class=headerow>1-Yr Value Change (%) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_NFL-Team-Valuations_YrChange.html)</TD><TD class=headerow>Debt/Value (%) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_NFL-Team-Valuations_DOV.html)</TD><TD class=headerow>Revenue ($mil) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_NFL-Team-Valuations_Revenue.html)</TD><TD class=headerow>Operating Income ($mil)</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>1 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Washington Redskins (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Washington-Redskins_300925.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>1,423 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>13 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>17 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>303 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>108.4 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>4 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Houston Texans (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Houston-Texans_302019.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>1,043 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>10 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>29 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>222 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>57.6 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>8 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Tampa Bay Buccaneers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Tampa-Bay-Buccaneers_306470.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>955 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>9 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>15 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>203 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>56.9 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>5 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Philadelphia Eagles (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Philadelphia-Eagles_301623.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>1,024 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>8 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>32 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>218 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>54.2 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>10 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Chicago Bears (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Chicago-Bears_301335.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>945 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>9 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>20 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>201 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>51.5 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>17 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Tennessee Titans (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Tennessee-Titans_308897.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>886 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>6 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>14 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>189 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>48.3 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>7 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Cleveland Browns (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Cleveland-Browns_307074.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>970 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>9 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>10 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>206 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>47.1 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>2 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>New England Patriots (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_New-England-Patriots_307338.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>1,176 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>13 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>26 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>250 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>43.6 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>3 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Dallas Cowboys (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Dallas-Cowboys_300988.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>1,173 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>10 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>17 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>235 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>37.1 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>12 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Miami Dolphins (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Miami-Dolphins_303017.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>912 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>7 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>27 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>194 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>33.4 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>20 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>St Louis Rams (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_St-Louis-Rams_307693.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>841 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>11 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>5 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>179 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>33.2 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>19 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>New York Jets (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_New-York-Jets_304841.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>876 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>18 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>11 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>179 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>33.1 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>25 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Buffalo Bills (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Buffalo-Bills_301765.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>756 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>7 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>9 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>176 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>31.2 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>14 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Kansas City Chiefs (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Kansas-City-Chiefs_309072.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>894 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>17 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>15 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>186 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>28.2 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>9 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Baltimore Ravens (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Baltimore-Ravens_309106.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>946 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>9 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>29 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>201 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>27.8 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=rowcolor align=middle>6 </TD><TD class=rowcolor noWrap>Denver Broncos (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/30/06nfl_Denver-Broncos_308211.html)</TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>975 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>7 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>21 </TD><TD class=rowcolor align=right>207 </TD><TD class=highlight align=right>26.9 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[YardRat]

Our income in 2006 ranked 12th in the league but our revenue was 25th. Explain to me how we aren't surviving.

Revenue = "Net of stadium revenues used for debt payment"

(Look at the top 3...It's no surprise they are Washington, New England, and Dallas.)

Operating income = "Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization"

Find something with an actual bottom line, red or black. Actual total revenues vs total expenses. Then I will.

[Ickybaluky]

I do agree that Buffalo is a tougher market than most in terms of corporate presence, but the argument it couldn't be done there is silly.

What about the Sabres? Don't they play in HBHC Arena? They have corporate sponsorship agreements with GM, Anheuser Busch, PepsiCo, Labatts, GM and Chevy. Weren't they losing money when Golisano bought the team? Aren't they making money now?

It is hard to criticize Wilson considering his long-time standing in the NFL and the fact he is the reason there even is a Bills team. However, don't tell me they can't market the team. You may not like it, but marketing and corporate sponsorships are what drives the revenues in pro sports today, not just the NFL. All you have to do is look at Green Bay, which doesn't exactly have a thriving corporate base, to see it can be done. The Steelers are another example of a city in similar straights to Buffalo, fiscally.

[Jan Reimers]

The bottom line is that the Bills don't need to leave Buffalo when the owner nets 15 million a year.

Whats the problem? It's not like the team isn't making money so the argumnet is such a joke.
Exactly, HH. There will certainly be local interests willing to buy the Bills from Ralph's estate. I believe a local buyer or group would be able to pony up the $750-800 million franchise value of this team and keep it Buffalo.

It has been marketed well, has 30-something corporate partners, a decent stadium, good practice facilities, a sweetheart lease deal on a county owned and maintained stadium, a large, loyal fan base, and IT MAKES MONEY.

The Bills can and should stay in Buffalo. Ralph's greedy, highest bidder sales approach, however, puts that in serious jeopardy.

[Ickybaluky]

Whoa, $750M?? Geez, that might pay the stadium off.

The stadium is going to end up costing over $1B to build. The City of Arlington is paying for $325M of that, with a one-half percent increase in the city's sales tax, 2 percent increase in the hotel occupancy tax, and 5 percent increase in the car rental tax. It is going to seat 80,000, but has the potential to expand to 100,000.

It isn't just the Cowboys there, though. College football teams will play games there as well. Texas A&M and Arkansas will play a rivalry game there annually, beginning in 2009. The reason AT&T may pay so much for naming rights is because they are moving the Cotton Bowl, which they already sponsor, to the new stadium as part of the deal. There also will be many non-sporting events hosted there, as stadiums today are about year-round use and multiple purposes, to maximize revenue.

[theanswer74]

I do agree that Buffalo is a tougher market than most in terms of corporate presence, but the argument it couldn't be done there is silly.

What about the Sabres? Don't they play in HBHC Arena? They have corporate sponsorship agreements with GM, Anheuser Busch, PepsiCo, Labatts, GM and Chevy. Weren't they losing money when Golisano bought the team? Aren't they making money now?

It is hard to criticize Wilson considering his long-time standing in the NFL and the fact he is the reason there even is a Bills team. However, don't tell me they can't market the team. You may not like it, but marketing and corporate sponsorships are what drives the revenues in pro sports today, not just the NFL. All you have to do is look at Green Bay, which doesn't exactly have a thriving corporate base, to see it can be done. The Steelers are another example of a city in similar straights to Buffalo, fiscally.

According to Tom Golisano the Sabres lost money.

Also, Pittsburgh and Cleveland are head and shoulders above Buffalo. The only similarity is the people, we are both blue collar cities. But when it comes to the economy, those cities are much more successful.

[Goobylal]

I do agree that Buffalo is a tougher market than most in terms of corporate presence, but the argument it couldn't be done there is silly.

What about the Sabres? Don't they play in HBHC Arena? They have corporate sponsorship agreements with GM, Anheuser Busch, PepsiCo, Labatts, GM and Chevy. Weren't they losing money when Golisano bought the team? Aren't they making money now?

It is hard to criticize Wilson considering his long-time standing in the NFL and the fact he is the reason there even is a Bills team. However, don't tell me they can't market the team. You may not like it, but marketing and corporate sponsorships are what drives the revenues in pro sports today, not just the NFL. All you have to do is look at Green Bay, which doesn't exactly have a thriving corporate base, to see it can be done. The Steelers are another example of a city in similar straights to Buffalo, fiscally.
Wilson isn't complaining about just the here and now; he's complaining about the future of the Bills. The Packers will never move, therefore a new owner won't have to plunk down $800M to buy the team, which is the problem with the Bills staying in Buffalo long-term. Again as I said, the net profit Ralph sees is great for a guy who literally has no debt WRT the team or a stadium (and BTW, outside of Kraft and Snyder, who passed the cost onto the fans just as Jones will be doing, NO other owner paid a red cent for their stadiums). But without high unshared revenue streams, competing by offering huge signing bonuses is still difficult.

The Steelers had a new stadium paid-for by the city and the team will pass to the children who want the team, unlike Wilson's daughters who don't. So far no one wants to build a new stadium for the Bills, and Ralph Wilson isn't demanding it. And even if one were to be built, at a cost of about $750M to the city/county, there's no guarantee that the richees would come to games, or that corporations would come in droves to buy luxury boxes (unshared revenue). Not to mention a $750M hit to the city would be hard to swallow.

So to whom should Ralph market the team? You'd have to be living under a rock to not know the Bills are in Buffalo and how to get tickets. And he's trying to market the team to Toronto, an area with money to rival the top markets, but he's getting lambasted for doing this.

[Typ0]

seems to me the naming rights would be dependent on a contract. In that contract would be a length. The length of a contract, and a buyout clause, could detract from the value of the team if a buyer wants to move it because they will have to execute the buyout. And RW cries and screams about how no one would pay $$$ for naming rights. Yet again, I call BS on Ralph Wilson. Again he refuses to even entertain offers based on his believe that no one will pay. It's just another excuse by a senile old man that things everyone in the world is stupid except for himself.

[Typ0]

Wilson isn't complaining about just the here and now; he's complaining about the future of the Bills. The Packers will never move, therefore a new owner won't have to plunk down $800M to buy the team, which is the problem with the Bills staying in Buffalo long-term. Again as I said, the net profit Ralph sees is great for a guy who literally has no debt WRT the team or a stadium (and BTW, outside of Kraft and Snyder, who passed the cost onto the fans just as Jones will be doing, NO other owner paid a red cent for their stadiums). But without high unshared revenue streams, competing by offering huge signing bonuses is still difficult.

The Steelers had a new stadium paid-for by the city and the team will pass to the children who want the team, unlike Wilson's daughters who don't. So far no one wants to build a new stadium for the Bills, and Ralph Wilson isn't demanding it. And even if one were to be built, at a cost of about $750M to the city/county, there's no guarantee that the richees would come to games, or that corporations would come in droves to buy luxury boxes (unshared revenue). Not to mention a $750M hit to the city would be hard to swallow.

So to whom should Ralph market the team? You'd have to be living under a rock to not know the Bills are in Buffalo and how to get tickets. And he's trying to market the team to Toronto, an area with money to rival the top markets, but he's getting lambasted for doing this.


RW has stated publicly several times that that he refuses to even take calls from local buyers interested in the team. He's determined to sell it to the highest bidder upon his death.

And the same as I said above goes for a new stadium...it will come with a contract obligation.

[YardRat]

I do agree that Buffalo is a tougher market than most in terms of corporate presence, but the argument it couldn't be done there is silly.

What about the Sabres? Don't they play in HBHC Arena? They have corporate sponsorship agreements with GM, Anheuser Busch, PepsiCo, Labatts, GM and Chevy. Weren't they losing money when Golisano bought the team? Aren't they making money now?

It is hard to criticize Wilson considering his long-time standing in the NFL and the fact he is the reason there even is a Bills team. However, don't tell me they can't market the team. You may not like it, but marketing and corporate sponsorships are what drives the revenues in pro sports today, not just the NFL. All you have to do is look at Green Bay, which doesn't exactly have a thriving corporate base, to see it can be done. The Steelers are another example of a city in similar straights to Buffalo, fiscally.

It's unrealistic to take the stance that the team hasn't been marketed in the past....It's not like Russ Brandon, the former head of marketing, ascended to COO by sitting on his ass. The Bills do have corporate agreements in place with several companies, including sponsors for training camp. The only marketing stones un-turned, as far as I'm concerned, are regionalization and stadium naming rights. Regionalization is being addressed with the Toronto effort, and naming rights (although every little bit helps the bottom line) don't amount to a good piss's worth of liquid in Lake Erie.

For example...out of the top ten naming rights deals for all stadiums, #10 is the Staples Center at 5.8/year....in Los Angeles. Buffalo isn't going to get anywhere near that, and even if they were lucky enough to get even 2mil per year, that extra cash is still going to be far short of any signing bonus any top tier player is going to be looking for to re-sign or shift to a new team via FA.

You want to bring up the Sabres? You think lack of real dollars didn't have any effect on the team not re-signing Drury, Briere, Zubrus, Campbell, etc? They may be back in the black, maybe, and if so barely, but they also don't have the money to throw around that other bigger markets do.

Revenue is revenue, and very few or even none of it should be exempt. Why should smaller market teams have to be burdened with helping to carry the increased debt loads created by the Dallas', Washington's, and New England's of the league if they are not going to get something in return?

[Jan Reimers]

RW has stated publicly several times that that he refuses to even take calls from local buyers interested in the team. He's determined to sell it to the highest bidder upon his death.
That's my biggest problem with Ralph. I know he can do what he wants, but he seems to have forgotten that he parlayed $25,000 into almost $800 million on the backs of NYS and Erie County taxpayers and loyal Bills' fans.

I like the idea of marketing to Toronto in order to increase season ticket sales, particularly premium seats and luxury boxes. But I hate the fact that he won't even entertain discussions with potential local buyers.

[HHURRICANE]

Okay, people.

1) The reason for naming the stadium isn't for local revenue. Any company could name stadium, anywhere. Every time a game is played there the name has to be mentioned on TV, printed, etc. Now with one less game, thanks to Ralph, the value of the naming rights goes down.

2) The team hasn't been marketed well. The ticket prices should be higher and the product on the field should be better to justify the price. Where's the star players to draw the fans in??? The Bills had a huge following for almost a decade after their last Superbowl.

3) When you keep losing you are going to lose fans. How many people have said, in other areas, "I became a fan during their SB runs, I was really hoping they would have won one". You can't keep those fans if you aren't in the hunt for almost 8 years.

4) Ralph is greedy. He had the worst reputaion in the 70s of any owner in the league. People around here are too young to remember.

[YardRat]

That's my biggest problem with Ralph. I know he can do what he wants, but he seems to have forgotten that he parlayed $25,000 into almost $800 million on the backs of NYS and Erie County taxpayers and loyal Bills' fans.

I like the idea of marketing to Toronto in order to increase season ticket sales, particularly premium seats and luxury boxes. But I hate the fact that he won't even entertain discussions with potential local buyers.

I usually agree with most of what you post, Jan, but I'll take issue with two points here...

What the Bills have meant to the local economy, dollar-wise, far outweighs whatever the final selling price for the team will be and whatever 'profit' Wilson's estate will see.

We know for a fact that Jim Kelly actually has had discussions regarding the sale of the team with Ralph, so to state he won't even entertain the possibility is slightly in error.

[yordad]

I usually agree with most of what you post, Jan, but I'll take issue with two points here...

What the Bills have meant to the local economy, dollar-wise, far outweighs whatever the final selling price for the team will be and whatever 'profit' Wilson's estate will see.

We know for a fact that Jim Kelly actually has had discussions regarding the sale of the team with Ralph, so to state he won't even entertain the possibility is slightly in error.Entertaining it or not, who cares. I don't want it entertained. I want it done.

You have to spend money to make money. He is millions under the self imposed cash to cap, and it is the sole reason I am not buying season tickets [period]

[YardRat]

Entertaining it or not, who cares. I don't want it entertained. I want it done.

You have to spend money to make money. He is millions under the self imposed cash to cap, and it is the sole reason I am not buying season tickets [period]

Too simplistic...if simply increasing expenditures automatically guaranteed increased revenues, we'd all be self-made millionaires. You still need a viable marketplace with expendable cash to create a revenue stream.

Ralph has, in the past, spent his own money for stadium upgrades, luxury suites, etc in an effort to increase revenues and he hasn't been able to garner any guaranteed sales from those outlays of cash.

[Ickybaluky]

It's unrealistic to take the stance that the team hasn't been marketed in the past....

Where did I say that? However, there are marketing opportunities available. Don't tell me nobody would be interested in naming rights, or nobody would be interesting in corporate partnerships. That is a big reason behind the foray over the border, to expand their regional base and increase marketing opportunities. I give them a lot of credit.

I think trying to use Wilson as part of the argument clouds the issue. Anyone's personal opinion of Wilson is not relevant. Instead, focus on what the Bills have going as assets: A rabid regional fan base, low debt, a cheap, existing stadium situation. I'm sure there is more.

The doom-and-gloom outlook (our economy sucks, we aren't a big market, etc.) is a negative outlook. How does Green Bay survive, despite their market? The Packers are among the leaders in generating NFL revenue. They built a restaurant/mall/ meeting hall/Packer's HOF complex that has turned their fortunes around by generating a lot of revenue and turning Lambeau field into a year-round facility.

Personally, I just don't see the situation as bad as it is painted to be.

[YardRat]

Where did I say that? However, there are marketing opportunities available. Don't tell me nobody would be interested in naming rights, or nobody would be interesting in corporate partnerships. That is a big reason behind the foray over the border, to expand their regional base and increase marketing opportunities. I give them a lot of credit.

I think trying to use Wilson as part of the argument clouds the issue. Anyone's personal opinion of Wilson is not relevant. Instead, focus on what the Bills have going as assets: A rabid regional fan base, low debt, a cheap, existing stadium situation. I'm sure there is more.

The doom-and-gloom outlook (our economy sucks, we aren't a big market, etc.) is a negative outlook. How does Green Bay survive, despite their market? The Packers are among the leaders in generating NFL revenue. They built a restaurant/mall/ meeting hall/Packer's HOF complex that has turned their fortunes around by generating a lot of revenue and turning Lambeau field into a year-round facility.

Personally, I just don't see the situation as bad as it is painted to be.

Here...


I do agree that Buffalo is a tougher market than most in terms of corporate presence, but the argument it couldn't be done there is silly.

What about the Sabres? Don't they play in HBHC Arena? They have corporate sponsorship agreements with GM, Anheuser Busch, PepsiCo, Labatts, GM and Chevy. Weren't they losing money when Golisano bought the team? Aren't they making money now?

It is hard to criticize Wilson considering his long-time standing in the NFL and the fact he is the reason there even is a Bills team. However, don't tell me they can't market the team. You may not like it, but marketing and corporate sponsorships are what drives the revenues in pro sports today, not just the NFL. All you have to do is look at Green Bay, which doesn't exactly have a thriving corporate base, to see it can be done. The Steelers are another example of a city in similar straights to Buffalo, fiscally.

The argument, from my POV anyway, isn't that it can't be done....Rather it is being done, it has been done in the past, and will continue to be done in the future and to ignore that effort is erroneous. The team is doing just about all it can to market the product, but the revenue just isn't there to supply the necessary support. Like it or not, dismiss the economic factors if you so choose, but they are the facts.

[YardRat]

Consider this single nugget...

If every stone had yet to be unturned in WNY, do you really believe the team would start searching under rocks in Canada looking for revenue without attempting to exhaust the effort in it's own immediate marketplace first?

[yordad]

Too simplistic...if simply increasing expenditures automatically guaranteed increased revenues, we'd all be self-made millionaires. You still need a viable marketplace with expendable cash to create a revenue stream.

Ralph has, in the past, spent his own money for stadium upgrades, luxury suites, etc in an effort to increase revenues and he hasn't been able to garner any guaranteed sales from those outlays of cash.Too simplistic, and we would all be millionaires? I think you are over simplifing it. It is basically the base of capitalism. Buying 12 pairs of shoes doesn't make one money. But, if your a shoe salesman, and your wearing ****ty shoes, it can effect your sales. This isn't even the best example, but I'm sure you get my point. For others, I will give another example. Would you go to a dentist who had bad breath and horrible teeth?

If you want to simplify it, at least do it relevently. I even gave you direct evidence. I am not buying season tickets, because RW hasn't done all he can to improve the product. I ain't even buying a tee shirt.

Does that make me less of a Bills fan because I'm rooting at home for free? I don't think so.

[Typ0]

It's unrealistic to take the stance that the team hasn't been marketed in the past....It's not like Russ Brandon, the former head of marketing, ascended to COO by sitting on his ass. The Bills do have corporate agreements in place with several companies, including sponsors for training camp. The only marketing stones un-turned, as far as I'm concerned, are regionalization and stadium naming rights. Regionalization is being addressed with the Toronto effort, and naming rights (although every little bit helps the bottom line) don't amount to a good piss's worth of liquid in Lake Erie.

For example...out of the top ten naming rights deals for all stadiums, #10 is the Staples Center at 5.8/year....in Los Angeles. Buffalo isn't going to get anywhere near that, and even if they were lucky enough to get even 2mil per year, that extra cash is still going to be far short of any signing bonus any top tier player is going to be looking for to re-sign or shift to a new team via FA.

You want to bring up the Sabres? You think lack of real dollars didn't have any effect on the team not re-signing Drury, Briere, Zubrus, Campbell, etc? They may be back in the black, maybe, and if so barely, but they also don't have the money to throw around that other bigger markets do.

Revenue is revenue, and very few or even none of it should be exempt. Why should smaller market teams have to be burdened with helping to carry the increased debt loads created by the Dallas', Washington's, and New England's of the league if they are not going to get something in return?


is it just about signing top talent though? The larger market owners have told us that they are not happy with Mr. Wilson for not selling the naming rights. So it's not going to be 6m per year. Maybe it's $500,000. But that's 500K that isn't going ot be requested from the league to bring up RWs revenue under the sharing agreement. He has no incentive to sell the naming rights if the money is just being made up through revenue sharing. But then RW talks about his know it all blow hard long term viability boo hoo of the franchise. RW is driving the Bills into the ground and posturing himself as the person who cares and is trying to save the team. He's doing nothing of the sort. He's not working with the customers. He's not working with the players. He's not working with the league. RW is a crinkled up island of senility and the enemy to all the parties mentioned.

[Dr. Lecter]

Okay, people.

1) The reason for naming the stadium isn't for local revenue. Any company could name stadium, anywhere. Every time a game is played there the name has to be mentioned on TV, printed, etc. Now with one less game, thanks to Ralph, the value of the naming rights goes down.

2) The team hasn't been marketed well. The ticket prices should be higher and the product on the field should be better to justify the price. Where's the star players to draw the fans in??? The Bills had a huge following for almost a decade after their last Superbowl.

3) When you keep losing you are going to lose fans. How many people have said, in other areas, "I became a fan during their SB runs, I was really hoping they would have won one". You can't keep those fans if you aren't in the hunt for almost 8 years.

4) Ralph is greedy. He had the worst reputaion in the 70s of any owner in the league. People around here are too young to remember.

1. Thanks to Ralph???? Huh? This is more than a Ralph move. Much more. Go and read about the suite sales. The Bills have tapped out Buffalo, Rochester and other somewhat local cities and they still can't sell out the luxury suites. And, as has been pointed out, many of the small markets have not sold their naming rights, including Jacksonville and Cleveland. Maybe it is not as simple as many people think it is. And while the name does get mentioned on TV broadcasts, fact is they are not on nationaly TV as much as other teams and the exposure is limited to the start and end of a game usually.

2. What would increased ticket prices do? Why do they need to increase? Tje team has a hard time selling out as it is. Like it or not, this area can only afford so much and issuing a pointless increase is not helpful at all.

3. I can't disagree here. But that is another issue.

4. And that was not always deserved either. Many of us do remember the 70's. Of course what he did the 1970's is not always relevant. He was also skewered back at the time of the new CBA. Guess he was right on that one.

[Dr. Lecter]

is it just about signing top talent though? The larger market owners have told us that they are not happy with Mr. Wilson for not selling the naming rights. So it's not going to be 6m per year. Maybe it's $500,000. But that's 500K that isn't going ot be requested from the league to bring up RWs revenue under the sharing agreement. He has no incentive to sell the naming rights if the money is just being made up through revenue sharing. But then RW talks about his know it all blow hard long term viability boo hoo of the franchise. RW is driving the Bills into the ground and posturing himself as the person who cares and is trying to save the team. He's doing nothing of the sort. He's not working with the customers. He's not working with the players. He's not working with the league. RW is a crinkled up island of senility and the enemy to all the parties mentioned.

Ralph is smarter and sharper than 99% of the people who post here.

[HHURRICANE]

is it just about signing top talent though? The larger market owners have told us that they are not happy with Mr. Wilson for not selling the naming rights. So it's not going to be 6m per year. Maybe it's $500,000. But that's 500K that isn't going ot be requested from the league to bring up RWs revenue under the sharing agreement. He has no incentive to sell the naming rights if the money is just being made up through revenue sharing. But then RW talks about his know it all blow hard long term viability boo hoo of the franchise. RW is driving the Bills into the ground and posturing himself as the person who cares and is trying to save the team. He's doing nothing of the sort. He's not working with the customers. He's not working with the players. He's not working with the league. RW is a crinkled up island of senility and the enemy to all the parties mentioned.

BINGO.

I'm tired of hearing about a problem that doesn't exist. The last time Forbes ran the net income list form the respective NFL teams Ralph was #10.

All I hear is excuses for a team that has ranked in the top 10 for attendance for the last 15 years.

The only one that is promoting the problem is the greedy owner that is setting the team up for a sale to the highest bidder. He gets more money if the team moves than stays in Buffalo.

This is the issue.

[YardRat]

He's not working with the customers.

Lowest ticket prices and luxury suite fees in the league, supposedly. What else would you like for him to do 'for the customer'? Price the majority out of the market in order to appease the few that want him to go balls-out and sign every big-name, over-paid, superstar-in-his-own mind that comes for sale to the highest bidder?


He's not working with the players.

Top-notch training facilities, including the fieldhouse. Nice signing bonuses and contracts for those the FO deems worth the money and effort.


He's not working with the league.

He helped BUILD the damn league into what it is today, and when he goes public with any opinions or observations he gets lambasted regardless of how true his words and concerns turn out to be a year or so later.

Ralph knew the CBA was bad, and 30 owners wouldn't listen. They are listening now, though, aren't they? Maybe the league should be more concerned about working with Ralph rather than vice-versa.

[YardRat]

BINGO.

I'm tired of hearing about a problem that doesn't exist. The last time Forbes ran the net income list form the respective NFL teams Ralph was #10.

All I hear is excuses for a team that has ranked in the top 10 for attendance for the last 15 years.

The only one that is promoting the problem is the greedy owner that is setting the team up for a sale to the highest bidder. He gets more money if the team moves than stays in Buffalo.

This is the issue.

If you still think that Forbes link gives an accurate picture of what the team is actually making, I can't help you.

[HHURRICANE]

People if he raised tickets to the league average with a contending playoff team how many empty seats would we have?

[HHURRICANE]

If you still think that Forbes link gives an accurate picture of what the team is actually making, I can't help you.

Dude what don't you understand. Net income is what they pay taxes on.

[HHURRICANE]

Revenue = "Net of stadium revenues used for debt payment"

(Look at the top 3...It's no surprise they are Washington, New England, and Dallas.)

Operating income = "Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization"

Find something with an actual bottom line, red or black. Actual total revenues vs total expenses. Then I will.

After Ralph paid his taxes he went from 12th to 10th. What are you having a hard time understanding?

[cba fan]

Dude what don't you understand. Net income is what they pay taxes on.
I pay taxes on my adjusted gross income.

After paying taxes what is left is my net income.

Are the terms different in the business corporation world??

[cba fan]

It's humorous how this issue has come full circle...Ralph at one time was considered a greedy, corporate sell-out, money-whore when he was the first to sell the naming rights to the Ralph.

Wrong wrong wrong.

The county sold the naming rights in the Rich deal at Ralph's displeasure. He did not want corporate naming deal. He profited nothing from that deal, the county got the money.

Why was Ralph against this? Don't know but I would guess it has something to do with him not getting any money from the Rich deal and the fact that the stadium is now called Ralph Wilson Stadium because Ralph wanted his name on the stadium.

[yordad]

I pay taxes on my adjusted gross income.

After paying taxes what is left is my net income.

Are the terms different in the business corporation world??Generally speaking, when I have a higher-then-the-average-bear adjusted gross income, I have a higher-then-the-average-bear net income; right?

Are the terms different in the business corporation world??

Wrong wrong wrong.

The county sold the naming rights in the Rich deal at Ralph's displeasure. He did not want corporate naming deal. He profited nothing from that deal, the county got the money.

Why was Ralph against this? Don't know but I would guess it has something to do with him not getting any money from the Rich deal and the fact that the stadium is now called Ralph Wilson Stadium because Ralph wanted his name on the stadium.One more reason to be mad and the old greedy bast***. He got upset when the county made money naming the stadium, and is now happy it has his name on it? That says it all.

[cba fan]

I still question whether they can sell/profit from the naming rights since they don't own the stadium. Anyone?

Ralph negotiated, and now owns, the rights to the naming rights of the stadium in Orchard Park during the last lease with the county.

Ralph and the Bills would get all the revenue from any deal.

So what did he do with the rights? He named the stadium after himself for no gain. He effectively sold the naming rights to himself for the cost to the bottom line of the Bills equal to the amount left on the table by any potential naming rights deal.

And for all those saying the couple million he would get is peanuts.....it would pay the salary of several of the lower tier Bills players. How could this be a bad thing?

This argument would be like if the Ravens would refuse to take any season ticket holders application and money if they lived in Washington DC. CRAZY talk is what this is.

[yordad]

Ralph negotiated, and now owns, the rights to the naming rights of the stadium in Orchard Park during the last lease with the county.

Ralph and the Bills would get all the revenue from any deal.

So what did he do with the rights? He named the stadium after himself for no gain. He effectively sold the naming rights to himself for the cost to the bottom line of the Bills equal to the amount left on the table by any potential naming rights deal.

And for all those saying the couple million he would get is peanuts.....it would pay the salary of several of the lower tier Bills players. How could this be a bad thing?

This argument would be like if the Ravens would refuse to take any season ticket holders application and money if they lived in Washington DC. CRAZY talk is what this is.I don't know if you are speculating, but it sounds right, and I believe it. Why the heck have you only posted 17 times? Informed posting is encoraged. :thumbsup:

[Dr. Lecter]

People if he raised tickets to the league average with a contending playoff team how many empty seats would we have?

Dude, what do you not understand - regular seat prices is not a problem.

[cba fan]

I don't know if you are speculating, but it sounds right, and I believe it. Why the heck have you only posted 17 times? Informed posting is encouraged. :thumbs up:
I'm not speculating. It was reported in Buffalo News and in TV media during the lease negotiations and after it was signed, not to mention it was mentioned in print and media when Ralph's name mysteriously appeared on the stadium two years after the Rich deal expired. It was called Bills Stadium in Orchard Park for the first year.

There was no fan push or other push to name it Ralph Wilson stadium and when it came down the Bills never had a good answer as to how this all happened. Also no official ceremony or anything just one day his name was up there.(we can speculate who made this decision and I'm sure it was not Tom Donohoe)

Many of us speculated on what the new corp. name would be and if maybe the Hunter's Hope Foundation(Jim Kelly son) would maybe be involved. EX: call it Hunters Field until a naming rights deal was sold and then maybe call it for ex: Nike Stadium at Hunter Field or retain that the field is Hunter Field somehow.

As for not posting much. I just started lurking a few months ago and then posted now and then after my hang out "the Buffalo Range" was starting to devolve into a pissing contest. I am now on both and enjoy each in their own different ways. I would like to upload a avatar but I guess I do not have enough points or money or whatever is needed to access that part.

[Goobylal]

RW has stated publicly several times that that he refuses to even take calls from local buyers interested in the team. He's determined to sell it to the highest bidder upon his death.
That last part was made up. Nowhere did he say he'll sell it to the highest bidder. And after he dies, how can HE sell the team anyway?


And the same as I said above goes for a new stadium...it will come with a contract obligation.
There's no guarantee the Bills will stay in Buffalo after Ralph dies. Therefore there won't be an obligation until after a new owner buys the team, if even.

[yordad]

That last part was made up. Nowhere did he say he'll sell it to the highest bidder. And after he dies, how can HE sell the team anyway?


There's no guarantee the Bills will stay in Buffalo after Ralph dies. Therefore there won't be an obligation until after a new owner buys the team, if even.OK, so when he is dead, do you believe his children will sell it to the lowest bidder? If he sold it before he dies seems an obligation could be put in place. :headscrat

[Goobylal]

OK, so when he is dead, do you believe his children will sell it to the lowest bidder? If he sold it before he dies seems an obligation could be put in place. :headscrat
I mentioned this on another thread, but the team won't be sold for a discount, regardless of whether it's before Ralph dies or after. The NFL will need to approve any sale, and since a sale of the Bills would affect their team values, they'll want the highest deal possible. So it's really out of the hands of Ralph and his daughters.

[yordad]

I mentioned this on another thread, but the team won't be sold for a discount, regardless of whether it's before Ralph dies or after. The NFL will need to approve any sale, and since a sale of the Bills would affect their team values, they'll want the highest deal possible. So it's really out of the hands of Ralph and his daughters.So, even if he wanted to, the NFL wouldn't allow him to sell it to whomever he wants, in hopes of keeping the team in Buffalo? This really isn't allowed?

Either way, I believe you just contridicted yourself.

[Goobylal]

So, even if he wanted to, the NFL wouldn't allow him to sell it to whomever he wants, in hopes of keeping the team in Buffalo? This really isn't allowed?

Either way, I believe you just contridicted yourself.
Um, no. What I said is that Ralph and/or his daughters CANNOT sell the team at a discount because the NFL would disallow the sale and force them to look for the highest bid from a stable ownership group. IOW, the team will be sold for at least what Forbes lists as their market value. Whether the new owner will move the team is anyone's guess, but again as I said in the other thread, there is a relocation fee that is in the $200M range.

[chernobylwraiths]

This is a crock. If anything, there are even more corporate sponsorships going on than ever, including naming rights. Jerry Jones is talking about getting $750M from AT&T on the new Dallas stadium. In the NHL, they are painting logos buried an inch under the ice.

You are going to see more an more corporate logos as time goes on. This includes on the stadia, fields and uniforms. It is a fast-growing trend, that will continue to increase and generate more revenue.

I smell :bs:

[chernobylwraiths]

A bunch of callers called to complain about how the Jerry Jones of the world are ruining the league and potentially destroying shared revenue.

Jim Miller made a point of how owners, like Ralph Wilson, were not doing enough to maximize their own revenue base and specifically brought the Stadium naming rights.

Ralph Wilson is among the top 10 in net income derived from owning an NFL team.

I think Jim Miller's point is that to have revenue sharing every owner has to be willing to maximize the revenue for their respective teams. Has Ralph done that? No.

If 2 million dollars comes from naming the stadium than name the damn stadium.

Didn't Ralph do this whole Toronto thing to "maximize revenue"?

[HHURRICANE]

I pay taxes on my adjusted gross income.

After paying taxes what is left is my net income.

Are the terms different in the business corporation world??

A business has gross margin, than takes expenses, and what's left is net income.

[Typ0]

That last part was made up. Nowhere did he say he'll sell it to the highest bidder. And after he dies, how can HE sell the team anyway?




I did not make anything up. RW stated the team would sell at auction when he died. That is the same as saying it will sell to the highest bidder. After he dies, he can sell the team via his estate and the way it's set up now, while he's alive.




There's no guarantee the Bills will stay in Buffalo after Ralph dies. Therefore there won't be an obligation until after a new owner buys the team, if even.


there could be an obligation if there was a contract signed for a new stadium or naming rights. The contractual obligations of the organization are still going to be in place when the old man kicks.

[cba fan]

If you go to downtown Buffalo, there are 2 or 3 big buildings with a major corporate presence. HSBC, which is already tied to the Sabres, Rich products, who is not interested and Labatt's who the NFL would frown on (i.e. a beer company) and they also just moved in.

Not to mention, the naming rights to the arena probably get the Sabres peanuts (I would guess less than $1 million per) if anything.

Peanuts??

How can 800,000 per year be peanuts when the team is losing money or breaking even each year?

This peanuts amount of 800,000 is free money that the team has to do nothing to bring in. The sponsor pays for everything involved with the naming rights deal. They probably even pay for the signs that adorn the arena and any sign updates as needed.

A boatload of season tix would need to be sold to generate 800,000 per year. Not to mention more sales staff and new marketing promo to do it. That all cost money. And of course they should also do that to max revenue if it is feasible. In the meantime you can not turn down free money from HSBC. Not if you are a smart businessman which Wilson is not.

[Typ0]

Peanuts??

How can 800,000 per year be peanuts when the team is losing money or breaking even each year?

This peanuts amount of 800,000 is free money that the team has to do nothing to bring in. The sponsor pays for everything involved with the naming rights deal. They probably even pay for the signs that adorn the arena and any sign updates as needed.

A boatload of season tix would need to be sold to generate 800,000 per year. Not to mention more sales staff and new marketing promo to do it. That all cost money. And of course they should also do that to max revenue if it is feasible. In the meantime you can not turn down free money from HSBC. Not if you are a smart businessman which Wilson is not.

except that the 800K you aren't getting is supplemented by the revenue sharing agreement in the NFL. That is what the problem is here.

[YardRat]

Peanuts??

How can 800,000 per year be peanuts when the team is losing money or breaking even each year?

This peanuts amount of 800,000 is free money that the team has to do nothing to bring in. The sponsor pays for everything involved with the naming rights deal. They probably even pay for the signs that adorn the arena and any sign updates as needed.

A boatload of season tix would need to be sold to generate 800,000 per year. Not to mention more sales staff and new marketing promo to do it. That all cost money. And of course they should also do that to max revenue if it is feasible. In the meantime you can not turn down free money from HSBC. Not if you are a smart businessman which Wilson is not.

1. It is peanuts in regards to the $'s being thrown around in today's NFL and it definitely won't be the difference between the team leaving or staying, or even 'star' players leaving or staying. 800K is probably close to 1/20th of the signing bonus (cash, up front) that Lee will be looking for. Oh goody...800 down, 15.2 million more to go.

The real issue is revenue sharing league-wide and it needs to be addressed for the smaller markets. Teams like Buffalo, Green Bay, Jax have been saddled with trying to help the Jones and Snyders of the league keep up with their self-inflicted debt loads by being river-rafted into an obscene CBA with a ridiculous increase in salary cap. Why? Because Jones and company need the higher cap, so they can throw bigger dollars at bigger names and have something to sell to the bigger corporations. No huge salary cap = no ability to go credit-card crazy on stars = no product to sell companies = not enough income to pay off the ever-increasing debt.

Meanwhile, all the average fans get to take it in the ass.

2. That being said, every little bit helps and as you (or someone) mentioned earlier, and it would at least pay a year's salary for a couple of lower-tier players, or some administrative personnel. Still, it's putting a band-aid on a severe gash and isn't going to stop the bleeding.

3. The other edge of the sword (and this goes somewhat to the comment on Ralph's business acumen) is why should Ralph accept low-ball dollars for most likely a long term deal when he possibly has the opportunity to maximize his income by getting a better deal via regionalization? Sure he could end up with 800k-1mil for 20 years from a smaller corp in Buffalo, but a 'real' businessman isn't going to lock himself in to low-ball profits/long-term deals when a bigger windfall could be on the horizon.

4. Directly related to Ralph the Businessman...Bull****. Stupid businessmen don't run and maintain a successful enterprise for just short of fifty years in a small-market region in a high-tax state. The man knows what he's doing obviously, and if he is to be labeled 'not smart' then I can think of thirty other names that are less smart then him.

[Goobylal]

I did not make anything up. RW stated the team would sell at auction when he died. That is the same as saying it will sell to the highest bidder. After he dies, he can sell the team via his estate and the way it's set up now, while he's alive.
The "auction" statement was more a comment on how his daughters don't want the team. And the "auction" involves multiple bidders submitting their bids to the NFL, and the NFL picking the best bid, which takes into account price and ownership stability. That's what happened when Kraft, Jones, Snyder, etc. bought their teams.

[HHURRICANE]

Um, no. What I said is that Ralph and/or his daughters CANNOT sell the team at a discount because the NFL would disallow the sale and force them to look for the highest bid from a stable ownership group. IOW, the team will be sold for at least what Forbes lists as their market value. Whether the new owner will move the team is anyone's guess, but again as I said in the other thread, there is a relocation fee that is in the $200M range.

Forgot about the relocation fee but my guess is that the the city that is getting the team is paying it and not the new owners. The Bills wouldn't have to seel the team at a discount to leave it in Buffalo.

[Typ0]

And the "auction" involves multiple bidders submitting their bids to the NFL, and the NFL picking the best bid, which takes into account price and ownership stability.

sounds like it's going to the highest bidder to me!

[Typ0]

1. It is peanuts in regards to the $'s being thrown around in today's NFL and it definitely won't be the difference between the team leaving or staying, or even 'star' players leaving or staying. 800K is probably close to 1/20th of the signing bonus (cash, up front) that Lee will be looking for. Oh goody...800 down, 15.2 million more to go.

The real issue is revenue sharing league-wide and it needs to be addressed for the smaller markets. Teams like Buffalo, Green Bay, Jax have been saddled with trying to help the Jones and Snyders of the league keep up with their self-inflicted debt loads by being river-rafted into an obscene CBA with a ridiculous increase in salary cap. Why? Because Jones and company need the higher cap, so they can throw bigger dollars at bigger names and have something to sell to the bigger corporations. No huge salary cap = no ability to go credit-card crazy on stars = no product to sell companies = not enough income to pay off the ever-increasing debt.

Meanwhile, all the average fans get to take it in the ass.

2. That being said, every little bit helps and as you (or someone) mentioned earlier, and it would at least pay a year's salary for a couple of lower-tier players, or some administrative personnel. Still, it's putting a band-aid on a severe gash and isn't going to stop the bleeding.

3. The other edge of the sword (and this goes somewhat to the comment on Ralph's business acumen) is why should Ralph accept low-ball dollars for most likely a long term deal when he possibly has the opportunity to maximize his income by getting a better deal via regionalization? Sure he could end up with 800k-1mil for 20 years from a smaller corp in Buffalo, but a 'real' businessman isn't going to lock himself in to low-ball profits/long-term deals when a bigger windfall could be on the horizon.

4. Directly related to Ralph the Businessman...Bull****. Stupid businessmen don't run and maintain a successful enterprise for just short of fifty years in a small-market region in a high-tax state. The man knows what he's doing obviously, and if he is to be labeled 'not smart' then I can think of thirty other names that are less smart then him.


you make no sense. It's the larger market teams that have been strapped with keeping the smaller ones afloat. Buffalo, Green Bay and Jax get $$$ from Dallas and Washington not the other way around. Furthermore, the Bills take that money and fail to do things like generate their own revenues from naming rights.

On your 4th point, RW is an idiot. He runs his business just the way he ran it in the 60s. Times have changed and RW hasn't. You would be surprised how many business owners are idiots. When the product is a home run you can pretty much be brain dead and it will still look like you are successful...and then you can tell yourself your successful in spite of all the opportunities you are losing on because you are an idiot.

[Dr. Lecter]

On your 4th point, RW is an idiot. He runs his business just the way he ran it in the 60s. Times have changed and RW hasn't. You would be surprised how many business owners are idiots. When the product is a home run you can pretty much be brain dead and it will still look like you are successful...and then you can tell yourself your successful in spite of all the opportunities you are losing on because you are an idiot.

Ralph is not an idiot.

He is smarter, at age 90, than 99% of the people here.

[cba fan]

1. It is peanuts in regards to the $'s being thrown around in today's NFL and it definitely won't be the difference between the team leaving or staying, or even 'star' players leaving or staying. 800K is probably close to 1/20th of the signing bonus (cash, up front) that Lee will be looking for. Oh goody...800 down, 15.2 million more to go.

The real issue is revenue sharing league-wide and it needs to be addressed for the smaller markets. Teams like Buffalo, Green Bay, Jax have been saddled with trying to help the Jones and Snyders of the league keep up with their self-inflicted debt loads by being river-rafted into an obscene CBA with a ridiculous increase in salary cap. Why? Because Jones and company need the higher cap, so they can throw bigger dollars at bigger names and have something to sell to the bigger corporations. No huge salary cap = no ability to go credit-card crazy on stars = no product to sell companies = not enough income to pay off the ever-increasing debt.

Meanwhile, all the average fans get to take it in the ass.

2. That being said, every little bit helps and as you (or someone) mentioned earlier, and it would at least pay a year's salary for a couple of lower-tier players, or some administrative personnel. Still, it's putting a band-aid on a severe gash and isn't going to stop the bleeding.

3. The other edge of the sword (and this goes somewhat to the comment on Ralph's business acumen) is why should Ralph accept low-ball dollars for most likely a long term deal when he possibly has the opportunity to maximize his income by getting a better deal via regionalization? Sure he could end up with 800k-1mil for 20 years from a smaller corp in Buffalo, but a 'real' businessman isn't going to lock himself in to low-ball profits/long-term deals when a bigger windfall could be on the horizon.

4. Directly related to Ralph the Businessman...Bull****. Stupid businessmen don't run and maintain a successful enterprise for just short of fifty years in a small-market region in a high-tax state. The man knows what he's doing obviously, and if he is to be labeled 'not smart' then I can think of thirty other names that are less smart then him.
I agree with almost all your points except we will disagree on Ralph the businessman. Yes he is smart that he made himself rich in the business world. But he does very dumb things at times. Many rich successful people let their egos get in the way at times. Sometimes for good and sometimes for bad.

Just to clarify I was making the "peanuts" comment in regards to HSBC, Sabres, and their financials.

I expect the Bills to get a better deal than HSBC gives the Sabres. I agree you wait for a little better deal than settle for peanuts, however, you don't wait forever and they could make a regional deal with for EX: Labatts Blue Stadium(with pouring rights in stadium, plus soda if Labatts has a sub in that, sponsorship with training camp in Rochester etc etc...) naming rights that would carry over into a new stadium at a premium increase or/of a avg of top ten NFL deals etc etc..... Or give Labatts a right of first refusal on new stadium deal.

This can get done. Ralph just does not want to get it done. Hell, hire Jerry Jones to get it done for you. It would not take too long. Not that I am a fan of any sort with Jerry Jones but he gets it done.

[YardRat]

you make no sense. It's the larger market teams that have been strapped with keeping the smaller ones afloat. Buffalo, Green Bay and Jax get $$$ from Dallas and Washington not the other way around. Furthermore, the Bills take that money and fail to do things like generate their own revenues from naming rights.

On your 4th point, RW is an idiot. He runs his business just the way he ran it in the 60s. Times have changed and RW hasn't. You would be surprised how many business owners are idiots. When the product is a home run you can pretty much be brain dead and it will still look like you are successful...and then you can tell yourself your successful in spite of all the opportunities you are losing on because you are an idiot.

Actually I make perfect sense. It isn't the old school owners that are in debt.

[YardRat]

I agree with almost all your points except we will disagree on Ralph the businessman. Yes he is smart that he made himself rich in the business world. But he does very dumb things at times. Many rich successful people let their egos get in the way at times. Sometimes for good and sometimes for bad.

Just to clarify I was making the "peanuts" comment in regards to HSBC, Sabres, and their financials.

I expect the Bills to get a better deal than HSBC gives the Sabres. I agree you wait for a little better deal than settle for peanuts, however, you don't wait forever and they could make a regional deal with for EX: Labatts Blue Stadium(with pouring rights in stadium, plus soda if Labatts has a sub in that, sponsorship with training camp in Rochester etc etc...) naming rights that would carry over into a new stadium at a premium increase or/of a avg of top ten NFL deals etc etc..... Or give Labatts a right of first refusal on new stadium deal.

This can get done. Ralph just does not want to get it done. Hell, hire Jerry Jones to get it done for you. It would not take too long. Not that I am a fan of any sort with Jerry Jones but he gets it done.

Labatts would be a good example of a corporate sponsor now that their USA headquarters in Buffalo, but others have mentioned that the NFL frowns on alcohol-related endorsements. I honestly don't know if it's against any league rule, a gentlemen's agreement, or what.

Jones 'gets it done' with a 'me-first', corporate-raider attitude and that is not what built the league. It will kill, or at least damage, it though.

[HHURRICANE]

Ralph is not an idiot.

He is smarter, at age 90, than 99% of the people here.

He's smart enough to own an 800 million dollar franchise. That's good enough for me.

Whether he's willing to save a community is a differnt story.

[YardRat]

He's smart enough to own an 800 million dollar franchise. That's good enough for me.

Whether he's willing to save a community is a differnt story.

If he wasn't sincere about trying to keep the Bills in Buffalo, he wouldn't waste the time, effort, and money to try and increase revenues through regionalization IMO. Then again, there is the school of thought that the ultimate motive is to secure a fan base pre-move the team to that location. Only Ralph knows the real answer to that.

[Goobylal]

sounds like it's going to the highest bidder to me!
That may very well happen. Again as I said, it's up to the NFL to decide, not Ralph or his daughters. There will be several bids for the team, pitched to the surviving NFL owners, and they'll choose who they want to let into their exclusive club. It's not like an owner or his heirs can tell the other 31 owners "this is who I want you to have to deal with until he dies/sells the team."

[Goobylal]

Forgot about the relocation fee but my guess is that the the city that is getting the team is paying it and not the new owners. The Bills wouldn't have to seel the team at a discount to leave it in Buffalo.
It's possible that the new city could pay the relocation fee. But it's unlikely given that they'll probably be paying for a new stadium that will cost in excess of $600M (and that's a conservative number). But again, the profit from having a team that costs "just" $800M minus the paltry (compared to the rest of the NFL) revenues will be small or negative.

[Johnny Bugmenot]

I still question whether they can sell/profit from the naming rights since they don't own the stadium. Anyone? Ralph Wilson gets every penny from that stadium. It's in the sweetheart deal they call a "lease." He doesn't even have to pay property taxes for any of the trouble. So he does better than owns it-- he freeloads it.

[Goobylal]

Ralph Wilson gets every penny from that stadium. It's in the sweetheart deal they call a "lease." He doesn't even have to pay property taxes for any of the trouble. So he does better than owns it-- he freeloads it.
Guess what? Virtually every other owner in the NFL does the same. The only owners who paid for their stadiums are Snyder, Kraft, and now Jones, but they passed the costs onto the fans. Ralph gets revenue from a 30-year old stadium that is barely used for anything else, but has the lowest gameday prices in the NFL by far. The horror!