Eagles Could End Up Helping Bills Big Time

[patmoran2006]

http://www.delcotimes.com/WebApp/appmanager/JRC/Daily;jsessionid=Nn2KLJfVhxsKD8BTXtn9GBqGTCqZ7Hfft0JZTWCnVppQTdTYtGBw!1641858452?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pg_article&r21.pgpath=%2FDCT%2FSports&r21.content=%2FDCT%2FSports%2FTopStoryList_Story_1920875

Even loosely connecting the dots suggests the Eagles — with 11 draft picks, and possibly a couple of more once they trade cornerback Lito Sheppard — could make a deal to move up the board for a guy like Albert.

Albert played guard in college. A converted basketball player, he has the instincts, the feet, the athleticism and the frame to play tackle on the NFL level. There is film of him playing left tackle last season, his junior year with the Cavaliers.

There is almost no way Albert will fall to the Eagles if they hang with the 19th overall pick. With draft pick trade charts very fluid these days, the Eagles could vault from 19 to 11 by packaging their top pick and little more than their second-round pick. Another prospect on the Eagles’ radar that also could be available in the top 12 is offensive tackle Jeff Otah (6-6, 323) of Pitt, who also has a basketball background

[patmoran2006]

For a Bills fan.. To me this is the absolute IDEAL dream scenario.

Say Philly wants Albert and Otah badly (they really need the OL help) and per this article, moved up to 11th and gave up their first and second.

This would be a dream scenario for Buffalo for 3 reasons..

1- It would allow them to still take their WR. Either Thomas or Sweed is all-but-guarenteed to be on the board at 19.

2- They could get back into the late first round, possibly as high as #25 (Seattle) by packaging together their second second and third rounders. This would allow them to get a CB like Flowers or Aqib, one of which would probably still be on the board.

3- With Philly's second rounder they'd still have, they could draft that much-needed TE. Perhaps Bennett or Davis.

You could debate the players to take, but I universally this is the best situation that could happen to Buffalo. Make it happen, Brandon.. err Overdorf.. err Guy.. Err Modrak..

[patmoran2006]

holy **** man.

The more I think about this, this has to happen.. They could end up with Limas Sweed (sorry but i prefer him to THomas),Brandon Flowers and Marcellus Bennet (Or John Carlson) if this trade got done.

what an incredible draft that would be.

[yordad]

I'm not big on Flowers, and I know you mentioned "You could debate the players to take", but I don't think any of the guys that will slip out of round one would be an upgrade at CB. At least not now. I prefere taking Lito off their hands as opposed to the 2nd round pick.

But, either way, it is a better scenerio then what we have now. We would likely get the receiver we want, and the added bonus (whatever it may be).

[YardRat]

Don't dismiss the possibility of teams in Philly's range also looking at WR and countering Buffalo's move down by trading up and leap-frogging for the very player the Bills may covet. Then what do you do?

Once the players start coming off the board, I think it's a good possibility that the teams in the 15-25 range experience a lot of movement trying to jockey into a better position to get in on the action with the group of receivers that are going to be availble at that point. There's going to be a run at WR somewhere in that range, and I hope we don't get left holding the bag.

[ddaryl]

I wouldn't be upset if the Bills took Albert at #11 if he is there.

The game is won and lost in the trenches, and Albert would start for us and our depth would be stronger because of it.

Lynch with a FB and a further upgrade OL would tear up yards... But we still need to replace Fowler at C

[HHURRICANE]

For a Bills fan.. To me this is the absolute IDEAL dream scenario.

Say Philly wants Albert and Otah badly (they really need the OL help) and per this article, moved up to 11th and gave up their first and second.

This would be a dream scenario for Buffalo for 3 reasons..

1- It would allow them to still take their WR. Either Thomas or Sweed is all-but-guarenteed to be on the board at 19.

2- They could get back into the late first round, possibly as high as #25 (Seattle) by packaging together their second second and third rounders. This would allow them to get a CB like Flowers or Aqib, one of which would probably still be on the board.

3- With Philly's second rounder they'd still have, they could draft that much-needed TE. Perhaps Bennett or Davis.

You could debate the players to take, but I universally this is the best situation that could happen to Buffalo. Make it happen, Brandon.. err Overdorf.. err Guy.. Err Modrak..

Do we get Lito Sheppard in this deal??

[venis2k1]

If we are successful in trading down, i will be the happiest guy on the planet.

[HHURRICANE]

If we are successful in trading down, i will be the happiest guy on the planet.

This is all I have ever said. Wr is our #1 need but there isn't one worthy at #11.

Poeple go nuts when I say take Harvey at #11. I'm not saying he is our #1 need but he is something that we will need and he is worth the #11 pick.

[patmoran2006]

Do we get Lito Sheppard in this deal??
NO.. As per article, draft value equates to Philly giving up their 19th overall and 2nd rounder, for our 11th overall.

Im having a hard time finding how someone would have a problem with that, unless there is a guy at #11 that you would REALLY want that would surely be gone before 19.

I'm nowhere near high enough on Harvey to turn down a trade-down with Philly so we can draft that.

If we made that trade, we could get a WR, CB and TE with our first three picks, all of which would be in the first two rounds.

[PECKERWOOD]

It would be foolish not to trade down 8 spots and to pick up a 2nd round pick. So much depth in this draft, alot of players that I would like to see play for the Bills. If we got an extra second I would be much more willing to take a game breaking TE like Dustin Keller in the 2nd, he would bring so much to our offense. If we take a huge target at TE, it makes the need of grabbing a huge WR not as big.

[venis2k1]

If we take a huge target at TE, it makes the need of grabbing a huge WR not as big.


BOTH are big needs on this team. Our offense was terrible last year. Was anyone else genuinly supprised every time we converted on 3rd down, or shocked when we actully drove down the feild and scored(the few occasions that it happened).

[PECKERWOOD]

BOTH are big needs on this team. Our offense was terrible last year. Was anyone else genuinly supprised every time we converted on 3rd down, or shocked when we actully drove down the feild and scored(the few occasions that it happened).

Oh yeah, absolutely.. Just saying though, if all the big WR's are gone in the 2nd round I would be thrilled if we picked up a Fred Davis or Dustin Keller type of target, would definately help negate the loss of missing out on a Hardy, Sweed, Thomas or Kelly.

[patmoran2006]

BTW,
Philly's 2nd round pick is the 49th pick.

[yordad]

Oh yeah, absolutely.. Just saying though, if all the big WR's are gone in the 2nd round I would be thrilled if we picked up a Fred Davis or Dustin Keller type of target, would definately help negate the loss of missing out on a Hardy, Sweed, Thomas or Kelly.HELP negate? Sure. Completely negate? No way. I know your with me, I just wanted to help you clarify.

I think if we miss out on Hardy, Sweed, Thomas, Kelly we will in fact be doing just that. Missing out.

If it comes down to reaching for a big wr or not getting one, I will reach. Not that I am saying it is coming down to that.

[HHURRICANE]

NO.. As per article, draft value equates to Philly giving up their 19th overall and 2nd rounder, for our 11th overall.

Im having a hard time finding how someone would have a problem with that, unless there is a guy at #11 that you would REALLY want that would surely be gone before 19.

I'm nowhere near high enough on Harvey to turn down a trade-down with Philly so we can draft that.

If we made that trade, we could get a WR, CB and TE with our first three picks, all of which would be in the first two rounds.

I was just curious if you would consider Lito in any kind of deal?

[yordad]

I was just curious if you would consider Lito in any kind of deal?I don't know if you specifically wanted Pats opinion, or just another opinion, so I will repost this for you either way.

I'm not big on Flowers, and I know you mentioned "You could debate the players to take", but I don't think any of the guys that will slip out of round one would be an upgrade at CB. At least not now. I prefere taking Lito off their hands as opposed to the 2nd round pick.

But, either way, it is a better scenerio then what we have now. We would likely get the receiver we want, and the added bonus (whatever it may be).

[YardRat]

HELP negate? Sure. Completely negate? No way. I know your with me, I just wanted to help you clarify.

I think if we miss out on Hardy, Sweed, Thomas, Kelly we will in fact be doing just that. Missing out.

If it comes down to reaching for a big wr or not getting one, I will reach. Not that I am saying it is coming down to that.

:beers:

[ScottLawrence]

I'd rather them stay where they are and grab a lineman....then go WR in the second.

[acehole]

I wouldn't be upset if the Bills took Albert at #11 if he is there.

The game is won and lost in the trenches, and Albert would start for us and our depth would be stronger because of it.

Lynch with a FB and a further upgrade OL would tear up yards... But we still need to replace Fowler at C

I would like that pick also.

[DrGraves]

too good to be true

[Captain gameboy]

Pat.

You need to take a break until the draft is over.

You just said a couple of days ago that this scenario was unlikely.

Remember your "long conversation" thread?

[Ed]

If Albert is still there at #11 and the Eagles want to make a deal, I think I'd rather just keep the pick and take Albert. I know we have a big need at WR, but no matter who we grab, it's highly unlikely a rookie WR is going to be able to come in and make an impact or contribute right away. Given the high rate of busts for WR's, and the time needed to develop, a talented and versatile O-lineman like Albert could do a lot more to help Edwards and improve our offense overall.

[Michael82]

If Albert is still there at #11 and the Eagles want to make a deal, I think I'd rather just keep the pick and take Albert. I know we have a big need at WR, but no matter who we grab, it's highly unlikely a rookie WR is going to be able to come in and make an impact or contribute right away. Given the high rate of busts for WR's, and the time needed to develop, a talented and versatile O-lineman like Albert could do a lot more to help Edwards and improve our offense overall.
or if we stand pat and take Albert, he could be the next Mike Williams. :ill:

[Ed]

or if we stand pat and take Albert, he could be the next Mike Williams. :ill:
Yeah, but you can say that about anyone. A WR still has a better chance of being a bust.

My point is that assuming we pick a good player, regardless of position, I think an O-lineman would do more for our offense then a #2 receiver. I think the best offenses tend to have the best O-lines, not the best receivers.

[yordad]

Yeah, but you can say that about anyone. A WR still has a better chance of being a bust.

My point is that assuming we pick a good player, regardless of position, I think an O-lineman would do more for our offense then a #2 receiver. I think the best offenses tend to have the best O-lines, not the best receivers.OK, but the best offenses tend to not have the worst WRs also.

[Ed]

OK, but the best offenses tend to not have the worst WRs also.Agreed. I'm not saying ignore the WR position, just that Albert looks like a safer and better investment to me then a WR.

I would never say we have the worst WR's either.

If we wanted a big WR that could come in and make an immediate impact, we should have done a better job addressing it in free agency. You can't expect the same kind of results from the draft. The draft is about the future. With any WR, we're probably not going to see a return for at least a couple years. That's just the way it is.

I still want to see us take a WR early, but if we're looking for offensive improvement this season, Albert looks like a better pick to me. That's all.

[yordad]

Agreed. I'm not saying ignore the WR position, just that Albert looks like a safer and better investment to me then a WR.

I would never say we have the worst WR's either.

If we wanted a big WR that could come in and make an immediate impact, we should have done a better job addressing it in free agency. You can't expect the same kind of results from the draft. The draft is about the future. With any WR, we're probably not going to see a return for at least a couple years. That's just the way it is.

I still want to see us take a WR early, but if we're looking for offensive improvement this season, Albert looks like a better pick to me. That's all.Well, everyone has an opinion, and yours might turn out golden. But, every pick is a risk, but I'm wanting to take that risk on a more glaring need.

As far as pushing for an immediate WR impact, one with the size we need, we did make an effort. The guy signed a smaller contract with a worst team. If your going to make that argument, maybe you could provide the name of some O-linemen we pursued (?).

But, I do see your angle. It is for future value. That isn't an angle I'm liking with all the current holes. Not to mention, I think there are probably 8 WRs that can start over Reed day one, and of them 4 or 5 that would give us that red zone threat we covet. And, the top four red zone threats will likely be gone by our second pick. No thankyou.

And, I have to add, Butler could be a stud in the making. Meaning our line might already be solidified long term. Well, except for center, and no center is going anywhere near that high. Sigh.

[Ed]

Well, everyone has an opinion, and yours might turn out golden. But, every pick is a risk, but I'm wanting to take that risk on a more glaring need.

As far as pushing for an immediate WR impact, one with the size we need, we did make an effort. The guy signed a smaller contract with a worst team. If your going to make that argument, maybe you could provide the name of some O-linemen we pursued (?).

But, I do see your angle. It is for future value. That isn't an angle I'm liking with all the current holes. Not to mention, I think there are probably 8 WRs that can start over Reed day one, and of them 4 or 5 that would give us that red zone threat we covet. And, the top four red zone threats will likely be gone by our second pick. No thankyou.

And, I have to add, Butler could be a stud in the making. Meaning our line might already be solidified long term. Well, except for center, and no center is going anywhere near that high. Sigh.
Right, we pursued Wilford and didn't get him. I don't blame the Bills for that, but we didn't get anyone else either, so now we're left with a hole that I don't think can be filled through the draft. Meaning I still want us to draft a WR, but I don't think they're going to be able to come in and be a #2. I just want the best value, especially with the first pick.

I guess I look at improving our offense as a whole as a glaring need right now, not just the #2 WR spot. If we trade down and grab a WR, I'm totally fine with that, but if we're staying at 11, I want the best player and it won't be a WR.

Whatever happens though, I'm sure I'll be fine with it. I trust the Bills to make better decisions then I would.

[bigbub2352]

trading down would be ideal getting another 2nd round pick, as well as being able to take Dthomas, Kelly, Sweed or Hardy at 19 then with the 2 picks in the 2nd go TE and Cb,

We would be making huge strides as a franchise with this kinda players being added,

I am all for them trading down and grabbing a WR, everyone knows i want DThomas, but i will take Sweed as a consilation prize any day of the week

[Night Train]

Marv always said "Run and stop the run " which ='s Lineman . Always a winning plan.

Never a bad idea, unless you're TD and fall in love with a Mike Williams workout.

I trust Modrak, who doesn't have TD ruining his work anymore.

If we draft a WR 1st, that's fine. Just don't believe it's the only option.

[Akhippo]

or if we stand pat and take Albert, he could be the next Mike Williams. :ill:

Heck, we can stand pat and take the WR everyone wants,and still get the next Mike Williams.

We need a draft bust at every position named Mike Williams. That would make it easier.

[yordad]

Right, we pursued Wilford and didn't get him. I don't blame the Bills for that, but we didn't get anyone else either, so now we're left with a hole that I don't think can be filled through the draft. Meaning I still want us to draft a WR, but I don't think they're going to be able to come in and be a #2. I just want the best value, especially with the first pick.

I guess I look at improving our offense as a whole as a glaring need right now, not just the #2 WR spot. If we trade down and grab a WR, I'm totally fine with that, but if we're staying at 11, I want the best player and it won't be a WR.

Whatever happens though, I'm sure I'll be fine with it. I trust the Bills to make better decisions then I would.
If Albert is still there at #11 and the Eagles want to make a deal, I think I'd rather just keep the pick and take Albert. I know we have a big need at WR, but no matter who we grab, it's highly unlikely a rookie WR is going to be able to come in and make an impact or contribute right away. Given the high rate of busts for WR's, and the time needed to develop, a talented and versatile O-lineman like Albert could do a lot more to help Edwards and improve our offense overall.OK ED, sorry if it feels like I'm picking on you. But, we went after Bryant Johnson, not Wilford.

I believe there are several guys that would start over Josh Reed. Sweed, Hardy, Kelly, or Thomas from day one. Maybe DeSean Jackson, Jordy Nelson, Andre Caldwell, DJ Hall, Doucet, and possibly Manningham.

First you say you would rather not trade down for good value on a top WR, then you say you are totally fine with that (?).

And, I would be interested in seeing these high WR bust rate stats.

[jamze132]

This team does not need to draft a CB on Day 1. I have said this 435 times in the past 3 weeks.

[Michael82]

This team does not need to draft a CB on Day 1. I have said this 435 times in the past 3 weeks.
I totally agree. :hi5:

[HHURRICANE]

I have an idea. Since our team needs serious help why not take the best guy at #11. Just a thought.

[yordad]

I have an idea. Since our team needs serious help why not take the best guy at #11. Just a thought.And, since we need all this serious help, you have to weigh in the playing time and impact this player is likely to have, right? Just a thought.

Best player isn't always the same as biggest impact player.

[Bert102176]

I'd like to see them get 2 WR's with their first 2 picks cause I doubt Lee will be here after this season especially since the Bills don't like to spend money on their own FA's plus he is pissed that JP is no longer the starter which in my opinion he should be still but we could get Sweed which I really want and the Doucett or Sweed and Manningham or how ever you spell it but we could upgrade big time at WR and even if Lee would resign for somereason hell that could be 3 very good young WR's a great young RB draft Schmitt in the 3rd our O could be dangerous especially if we get a real Center on our OL.

[Ed]

OK ED, sorry if it feels like I'm picking on you. But, we went after Bryant Johnson, not Wilford.

I believe there are several guys that would start over Josh Reed. Sweed, Hardy, Kelly, or Thomas from day one. Maybe DeSean Jackson, Jordy Nelson, Andre Caldwell, DJ Hall, Doucet, and possibly Manningham.

First you say you would rather not trade down for good value on a top WR, then you say you are totally fine with that (?).

And, I would be interested in seeing these high WR bust rate stats.
Actually, Wilford was the first WR we went after on day 1 of free agency. He was given offers by Miami and Buffalo and chose Miami. He was the guy the Bills really wanted, but couldn't get him. Johnson wasn't brought in until the following week. Given his lack of production and lack of desire to commit long term, it's probably best we didn't end up signing him. Wilford was definitely pursued and wanted by the Bills though.

As for not wanting to trade down, my point was that if you gave me the choice between taking Albert, or trading down for a WR, I'd rather just take Albert. I'm still ok with trading down though and grabbing a WR if that's what the Bills choose to do. I've never once said I'm opposed to drafting a WR, just not at #11. I would like to see us grab one at some point early on though. So I'm completely in favor of drafting a WR this year, I'm just being realistic in my expectations that it's probably going to take a couple years for them to develop.

There really wasn't any contradictions in my last post.

As for stats on bust rates, I don't have any. There was a thread and an article all about WR's being a higher risk though. Kind of how RB's and LB's tend to be easier to project and have an easier time transitioning to the NFL, the opposite seems to be true with WR's. I don't know why, that's just the way it is.

[Marvelous]

3- With Philly's second rounder they'd still have, they could draft that much-needed TE. Perhaps Bennett or Davis.


Let it go bro. We're not using a day 1 pick on a TE!!!

[Oaf]

How bout Lito and 19 for 11? :pray:

[yordad]

Actually, Wilford was the first WR we went after on day 1 of free agency. He was given offers by Miami and Buffalo and chose Miami. He was the guy the Bills really wanted, but couldn't get him. Johnson wasn't brought in until the following week. Given his lack of production and lack of desire to commit long term, it's probably best we didn't end up signing him. Wilford was definitely pursued and wanted by the Bills though. OK, but did you see how quick, and how cheap he signed with the leagues worst team? Either way though, if we went after him, it further proves my point.

As for not wanting to trade down, my point was that if you gave me the choice between taking Albert, or trading down for a WR, I'd rather just take Albert. I'm still ok with trading down though and grabbing a WR if that's what the Bills choose to do. I've never once said I'm opposed to drafting a WR, just not at #11. I would like to see us grab one at some point early on though. So I'm completely in favor of drafting a WR this year, I'm just being realistic in my expectations that it's probably going to take a couple years for them to develop. You think Albert round one, and another #3 WR in round two would be good?

There really wasn't any contradictions in my last post. OK

As for stats on bust rates, I don't have any. There was a thread and an article all about WR's being a higher risk though. Kind of how RB's and LB's tend to be easier to project and have an easier time transitioning to the NFL, the opposite seems to be true with WR's. I don't know why, that's just the way it is. I read the thread on bust rates, and it didn't show any stats either. In fact, I provided (via cut and paste) many relevent recent stats. Seems the only "evidence" to this now widely accepted idea, was one scout mentioning it in passing when getting interveiwed at the combine. You might want to read the thread you referred to again.

[Ed]

You might want to read the thread you referred to again.
Just look at the 1st round draft history to get an idea of how many WR's don't pan out.

This is 1996 - 2005. You tell me if a lot of these guys were worth 1st round picks.

1996

1. Keyshawn Johnson (Yes)
7. Terry Glenn (No)
18. Eddie Kennison (No)
19. Marvin Harrison (Yes)
24. Eric Moulds (Yes)

1997

7. Ike Hilliard (No)
15. Yatil Green (No)
16. Reidel Anthony (No)
27. Rae Carruth (No)

1998

16. Kevin Dyson (No)
21. Randy Moss (Yes)
30. Marcus Nash (No)

1999

6. Torry Holt (Yes)
8. David Boston (No)
13. Troy Edwards (No)

2000

4. Peter Warrick (No)
8. Plaxico Burress (Yes)
10. Travis Taylor (No)
21. Sylvester Morris (No)
29. RJ Soward (No)

2001

8. David Terrell (No)
9. Koren Robinson (No)
15. Rod Gardner (No)
16. Santana Moss (Maybe)
25. Freddie Mitchell (No)
30. Reggie Wayne (Yes)

2002

13. Donte Stallworth (No)
19. Ashley Lelie (No)
20. Javon Walker (Maybe)

2003

2. Charles Rogers (No)
3. Andre Johnson (Yes)
17. Bryant Johnson (No)

2004

3. Larry Fitzgerald (Yes)
7. Roy Williams (Yes)
9. Reggie Williams (No)
13. Lee Evans (Yes)
15. Mark Clayton (Yes)
29. M. Jenkins (No)
31. Rashaun Woods (No)

2005

3. Braylon Edwards (Yes)
7. Troy Williamson (No)
10. Mike Williams (No)
21. Matt Jones (No)
22. Mark Clayton (No)
27. Roddy White (No)

Even if I include the maybes, I've got 15 out of 45 guys that were worth a 1st round pick. That's 33%. That's not very good. I'm sure you can debate some of the players, but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of first round WR's in this league just aren't worth it. I'm not saying you should never take WR in the first round, but it's hard to deny that it's one of the riskier picks.

Given the fact that there are already questions surrounding the top WR's in this class and that no one is really standing out, taking one at #11 just looks like a bad move.

As for the rest of your post, I don't know what point you're trying to make with the Wilford and Johnson thing. I said that if we wanted a WR that could come in and make an immediate impact, we needed to get one in free agency. We tried and it didn't work out, which was too bad because we're most likely not going to be able to get the same kind of impact from a rookie that you can from a vet. That was my point. You're assuming a rookie WR can come in and be a legitimate #2. I'm not. It doesn't mean I don't want to draft a WR though. I just recognize the fact that it's going to take time to develop.

And yes, taking Albert with the #11 pick over a WR or trading down for one would be my first choice. I think taking Albert and picking up a WR in the second or trading back into the 1st would help our offense the most. But I'm not opposed to trading down and grabbing a WR like Thomas or Sweed. It's just not my first choice. I trust the Bills though, and I'll be excited for whoever we get.

I recognize the need for a WR, I just don't think it's in the teams best interest to make going after one the top priority at all costs if we don't get good value.