Bills primary goal in building a team: Beat NE

[Mitchy moo]

The bar has been set in the AFC and we have to hold one goal most important, fielding a team that can compete and beat NE. Our off season has been spent acquiring players that made us more like the Giants (including acquiring a Giant player), so the goal is clear to me.

This is one of the main reasons I feel that we draft Harvey and move up into the late 1st round and pick a WR up. NE lost because their offense was pinched by the Giants pass rush, nothing less than obvious. We have pictures of Brady in pain and confused from that game, all thanks to the pass rush. The only way that the Bills can overtake NE and most other teams is to limit their access to run, pass and think. I am simplifying this but our team gave away too much defensively to win last season, that will no longer be the case.

Go Bills!!

[THATHURMANATOR]

With this reasoning who are we drafting to cover Moss?

[Mr. Miyagi]

There is no covering Moss regardless of who the corner is.

Hit Brady hard and often and the ball won't even get to Moss. That's why I think Harvey is the pick.

[Mitchy moo]

With this reasoning who are we drafting to cover Moss?


Moss will always get his chances but Brady will not have his usual time to kill us, that's over. We are going to focus on controlling the ground and limiting the QB's time to pass.

The Bills will also be able to build leads that our defense can hold. We will force teams to become one dimensional and favor the pass, which gives us the chance to focus in on their QB.

[THATHURMANATOR]

ok thanks for clarifying.

[DraftBoy]

With this reasoning who are we drafting to cover Moss?

DRC

[Mitchy moo]

DRC

DRC is like anti-venom, I just want the snake headless before it can strike.

[FlyingDutchman]

How about we concentrate on making the playoffs and being competitive in the league before we make our goal to beat one of the best teams of all time. Another thing, I just dont understand why people think that drafting the 3rd best DE in the draft who had a decent 8.5 sacks, most of which were caused by the QB running away from the other DE, and who will probably see the field in rotation only is going to magically change the way we get to Brady. Our D, may have been terrible last year, but they didnt give up a crazy amount of points in most games. Our failure to move the ball and put up points, is what did us in.

[justasportsfan]

Another way to beat NE is score more points. Harvey is NOT gonna come in and just get to Brady. I doubt he's even gonna beat either Kelsay or Schobel in his first year. If you're drafting for the future then yes. For immediate impact, doubt it unless he can play TE or WR.

[FlyingDutchman]

DRC is like anti-venom, I just want the snake headless before it can strike.

yeah who wants a CB who is over 6 feet tall, runs a 4.3 and was the MVP of the senior bowl....

[Mitchy moo]

yeah who wants a CB who is over 6 feet tall, runs a 4.3 and was the MVP of the senior bowl....

Never had tough competition plays into it. I also feel that Harvey is good to go out of the box and DRC will take more time.

[DraftBoy]

D2 school, never had tough competition plays into it. I also feel that Harvey is good to go out of the box and DRC will take more time.

He did not play at a d2 school

[Mitchy moo]

How about we concentrate on making the playoffs and being competitive in the league before we make our goal to beat one of the best teams of all time. Another thing, I just dont understant why people think that drafting the 3rd best DE in the draft who had a decent 8.5 sacks, most of which were caused by the QB running away from the other DE, and who will probably see the field in rotation only is going to magically change the way we get to Brady. Our D, may have been terrible last year, but they didnt give up a crazy amount of points in most games. Our failure to move the ball and put up points, is what did us in.

Outscoring a team is easier if you keep your opponents score down. Our goal is to make sure Brady hears footsteps until Wednesday after playing us. He hasn't even needed to shower after playing us up until now, that's about to change.

[FlyingDutchman]

Dude people need to let this small school crap go. Do you really want me to rattle the list again of small school players in the NFL? Strahan, Terrel Owens, Brian Westbrook, Jerr Rice....the list goes on. Nobody says a word about Mckelvin coming from Troy. What exactly about Harveys game do you like Skooby.

[Mitchy moo]

He did not play at a d2 school


Yeah, I fixed that after realizing he just had no competition this season.

[FlyingDutchman]

Outscoring a team is easier if you keep your opponents score down.

thanks for that wonderful insight. Why do I even bother....

[FlyingDutchman]

so skooby, why are you sold on Harvey....go.....

[FlyingDutchman]

without giving your usual line of crap that he will produce sooner, cuz that is just guessing, tell me what about his game you like so much....

[justasportsfan]

Hurry skoobs. Google your answer

[FlyingDutchman]

hes definately doing research now and looking for what people say about him...

[baalworship]

I am starting to warm to Harvey for this very reason. Pass-rushers don't grow on trees and if this guy is the real deal pull the trigger.

[Mitchy moo]

I live in Sw Fl and get to check out alot of the games. The guy is aggressive and would force our opponent's offenses to gameplan for him. You get enough guys on the field that need gameplanning, you create confusion for your opponent's. We have been easier to read than a Dr. Suess book for years now, that is going to change.

[FlyingDutchman]

I agree, good pass rushers are hard to find,nobody has explained what makes this guy "the real deal"...still waiting skoob....

[FlyingDutchman]

I live in Sw Fl and get to check out alot of the games. The guy is aggressive and would force our opponent's offenses to gameplan for him. You get enough guys on the field that need gameplanning, you create confusion for your opponent's. We have been easier to read than a Dr. Suess book for years now, that is going to change.

Yeah the Patriots are gonna be crapping their pants when they try to figure out how to game plan our rotational 3rd DE....

[Mahdi]

With this reasoning who are we drafting to cover Moss?
Who did the Giants use to cover Moss? Strahan, Umenyiora, Tuck, Alford....

[Mahdi]

Another way to beat NE is score more points. Harvey is NOT gonna come in and just get to Brady. I doubt he's even gonna beat either Kelsay or Schobel in his first year. If you're drafting for the future then yes. For immediate impact, doubt it unless he can play TE or WR.
DEs playing in the cover 2 have almost no learning curve. They come in and get after the QB with pure speed and talent. Gaines Adams started for Tampa Bay day one and was huge for them. Im sure Freeney and Mathis were instant starters as well.

[Mitchy moo]

Who did the Giants use to cover Moss? Strahan, Umenyiora, Tuck, Alford....

How true.

[Mitchy moo]

DEs playing in the cover 2 have almost no learning curve. They come in and get after the QB with pure speed and talent. Gaines Adams started for Tampa Bay day one and was huge for them. Im sure Freeney and Mathis were instant starters as well.

To me, Harvey looks like a guy that can play well right from the onset as well. There is also nothing that says that he cannot stay in the game all the time and not rotate in /out. Some here want a guy that can grow into the spot over a few year period, which is cool but those guys need to come in the later rounds. When you are drafting early, you want a impact player. Harvey looks like someone that is going to be there at the 11th pick, can play in our system and be that guy.

I could be wrong and if they draft a WR with the 11th pick I'll be happy but I would like them to draft a WR late in the first via a move-up.

[Mahdi]

Yeah the Patriots are gonna be crapping their pants when they try to figure out how to game plan our rotational 3rd DE....
If we were to draft Harvey or Cliff Avril who says they would be rotational? Its not like Kelsay is coming off a 10 sack year. He struggled big time to pressure the QB let alone come up with a sack. Harvey or Avril can easily come in and push Kelsay down the depth chart especially if they show they are more talented. Jauron is a defensive guy and he knows that getting after QBs is the #1 concern. He's not going to give Kelsay the job just because they paid him. Plus we can afford to pay 3 DEs starter money since we dont pay CBs that much. Thats the advantage of the cover 2.

[Mahdi]

To me, Harvey looks like a guy that can play well right from the onset as well. Some here want a guy that can grow into the spot over a few year period, which is cool but those guys need to come in the later rounds. When you are drafting early, you want a impact player. Harvey looks like someone that is going to be there at the 11th pick, can play in our system and be that guy.

I could be wrong and if they draft a WR with the 11th pick I'll be happy but I would like them to draft a WR late in the first via a move-up.
Same. I would be really happy about Harvey,,, but I would be just as happy with Devin Thomas. Then we can take a DE with our 2nd rounder and TE in the 3rd.

[justasportsfan]

DEs playing in the cover 2 have almost no learning curve. They come in and get after the QB with pure speed and talent. Gaines Adams started for Tampa Bay day one and was huge for them. Im sure Freeney and Mathis were instant starters as well.
If this was fact then both Kelsay and Aaron should easily get to the qb with hardly any effort. Same goes for the colts' DE's .

[Mitchy moo]

If this was fact then both Kelsay and Aaron should easily get to the qb with hardly any effort. Same goes for the colts' DE's .

Harvey to me looks like that extra guy that forces team to gameplan for him. How many people on the field did our opponents have to gameplan on defense for most of last season, 3 or 4?? Now they are looking at potentially 7 or 8 strong players that will create concern for opposing offenses, regardless of what some have mentioned on here.

[justasportsfan]

Harvey to me looks like that extra guy that forces team to gameplan for him. .in college. Maybe teams in the NFL will in a couple of years.

[FlyingDutchman]

If we were to draft Harvey or Cliff Avril who says they would be rotational? Its not like Kelsay is coming off a 10 sack year. He struggled big time to pressure the QB let alone come up with a sack. Harvey or Avril can easily come in and push Kelsay down the depth chart especially if they show they are more talented. Jauron is a defensive guy and he knows that getting after QBs is the #1 concern. He's not going to give Kelsay the job just because they paid him. Plus we can afford to pay 3 DEs starter money since we dont pay CBs that much. Thats the advantage of the cover 2.

who says he would start? We have no true #1 CB who has the size or skills to cover a top WR in this league. At least we have servicable DEs. Im sick of hearing the cover 2 no need for a shutdown corner arguement. We were near dead last in passing yards against us, which makes this situation just as bad as our WR situation. Anybody heard of a coverage sack? Anybody remember when Moss scored 4 TDs in one half bc we dont have a cornerback that stands a chance covering him. Once again, somebody PLEASE explain what skill Harvey has that would make him a good pick. Is it really bc Harvey is that good of a player, or just bc we saw the Giants have success with good DEs on the Patriots so we should try to copy that by picking up the next available DE in the draft and hoping for the best.

[Mitchy moo]

in college. Maybe teams in the NFL will in a couple of years.


It depends on who is around him as well.

[justasportsfan]

It depends on who is around him as well.
same can be said about our current DE's. In the meantime if we go with Harvey who's gonna be around Trent?

[ScottLawrence]

Another way to beat NE is score more points. Harvey is NOT gonna come in and just get to Brady. I doubt he's even gonna beat either Kelsay or Schobel in his first year. If you're drafting for the future then yes. For immediate impact, doubt it unless he can play TE or WR.


First of all, our D-Line uses a rotating system. Harvey would put a great asset to the rotation of our DE's. He could also replace Hargrove.

Secondly, If you don't think Harvey would make an immediate impact, what makes you think a WR(A position where most rookies struggle to come in right away and make an impact) is going to come in and make an impact?


I'd go with DE, then WR in the second.

[justasportsfan]

First of all, our D-Line uses a rotating system. Harvey would put a great asset to the rotation of our DE's. He could also replace Hargrove.

Secondly, If you don't think Harvey would make an immediate impact, what makes you think a WR(A position where most rookies struggle to come in right away and make an impact) is going to come in and make an impact?


I'd go with DE, then WR in the second.

Denney when healthy gives quality time.

Even Reed himself was a huge help in his rookie year as was Evans.

Getting to Brady starts up the middle which we've already addresed. As bad as you think this D was last year, it carried the entire team especially the O.

Time to address the weakest link of theis team. The O.

Harvey isn't gonna catch balls for Trent . If you neglect Trent like we neglected JP, ya'll will be calling for us to draft another QB and calling him a bust.

This O has been horrible since the Kelly era. If Trent is to be the franchise qb we all hope for, he needs help NOW . We've all been witness to this O not being able to score . Who's gonna do it for us the D?

We need balance and so far it's not even close, the O needs help the most.

[Mitchy moo]

Denney when healthy gives quality time.

Even Reed himself was a huge help in his rookie year as was Evans.

Getting to Brady starts up the middle which we've already addresed. As bad as you think this D was last year, it carried the entire team especially the O.

Time to address the weakest link of theis team. The O.

Harvey isn't gonna catch balls for Trent . If you neglect Trent like we neglected JP, ya'll will be calling for us to draft another QB and calling him a bust.

This O has been horrible since the Kelly era. If Trent is to be the franchise qb we all hope for, he needs help NOW . We've all been witness to this O not being able to score . Who's gonna do it for us the D?

We need balance and so far it's not even close, the O needs help the most.

It's better to start your offense at the 50 yard line then your own 20, keep that in mind. This also sets up a bend a little / don't break type D , which probably would of won us a few more games last season if healthier.

[justasportsfan]

This also sets up a bend a little / don't break type D , which probably would of won us a few more games last season if healthier.


and if this O was ranked between 15 to 20 we'd will a few more games too.

This team had most of it's money on the D side of the ball while it ignored the O during Donahoe's time. How did that turn out?

MArv's 90's team had Kelly ,Thurman , Reed , Lofton on O and Bruce , Bennett, Talley , Hansen. That team was balanced. How did that turn out?

The fins have had top D's during Wanny's time but had Fiedler on O . They went no where.

The PAts were balanced on both sides of the ball during their dynasty run although they weren't gonna go undefeated then. Now that they added more offensively they almost went undefeated.
I kow you're going to say that we're facing the PAts therefore we should bring in more defensive players. Well, our D isn't gonna stop their O if our O keeps going 3 and out either.

[ScottLawrence]

Denney when healthy gives quality time.

Even Reed himself was a huge help in his rookie year as was Evans.

Getting to Brady starts up the middle which we've already addresed. As bad as you think this D was last year, it carried the entire team especially the O.

Time to address the weakest link of theis team. The O.

Harvey isn't gonna catch balls for Trent . If you neglect Trent like we neglected JP, ya'll will be calling for us to draft another QB and calling him a bust.

This O has been horrible since the Kelly era. If Trent is to be the franchise qb we all hope for, he needs help NOW . We've all been witness to this O not being able to score . Who's gonna do it for us the D?

We need balance and so far it's not even close, the O needs help the most.

I agree the offense needs to be adressed.

But not one reciever warrants the 11th overall pick. If someone like Harvey or Sedrick Ellis falls I don't see how you can pass unless you got a deal in place to trade down and pick up one or two first day picks in which case you take a reciever.

Out of our lowly 26 sacks, all our DE's accounted for only 11 of them.

Yes we signed Stroud and replaced Triplett with Johnson which looks to be an upgrade, but if Stroud goes down which he has been doing recently we are stuck exactly where we were last year....I believe more depth on the D-Line with the 11th overall pick would be a great move. You can never have too many good lineman.

I truly believe a WR could be had in the 2nd round. This WR class is deep, and someone like Jorday Nelson or maybe even James Hardy could be there when we pick in the 2nd. I also believe our starting TE will be there in the 3rd.

[Mitchy moo]

and if this O was ranked between 15 to 20 we'd will a few more games too.

This team had most of it's money on the D side of the ball while it ignored the O during Donahoe's time. How did that turn out?

MArv's 90's team had Kelly ,Thurman , Reed , Lofton on O and Bruce , Bennett, Talley , Hansen. That team was balanced. How did that turn out?

The fins have had top D's during Wanny's time but had Fiedler on O . They went no where.

The PAts were balanced on both sides of the ball during their dynasty run although they weren't gonna go undefeated then. Now that they added more offensively they almost went undefeated.

Lots of glory and no gold. We need to field a team to beat the best, not compete with the worst. If you have a blueprint to defeat a team you play 2 times a season in your own division, you follow that blueprint to the letter (see Superbowl pic below). If you notice the NE guys are sucking wind with their hands on their hips and the Giants guys are dancing and waiting for their turn to Kill Brady, which scenario works better?? (see SB final score)


http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0203/nfl_rt_brady_600.jpg

[justasportsfan]

But not one reciever warrants the 11th overall pick. .niether does a DE because it isn't our biggest need. Value can be based on need as well.

I guess the consensus is to trade down and I agree but ifwe can't I want the best wr that can be had . MY opinion is also based on not knowing whether Lee will be here either which makes the need even bigger.

[justasportsfan]

Lots of glory and no gold. We need to field a team to beat the best, not compete with the worst. If you have a blueprint to defeat a team you play 2 times a season in your own division, you follow that blueprint to the letter (see Superbowl pic below). If you notice the NE guys are sucking wind with their hands on their hips and the Giants guys are dancing and waiting for their turn to Kill Brady, which scenario works better?? (see SB final score)


http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/0203/nfl_rt_brady_600.jpg
I have no doubt in my mind that the Giants were better that daybut if they had to play 3 games the Pats would've won it.

To beat the best team you have to stop them and score more points. So far we've done something about trying to stop them, we have done nothing to try and score more than them. Balance skoobs.


(see SB final score). the giants had more points on the board

[BADTHINGSMAN]

I think bringing in Stroud and Johnson will help Schobel and Kelsay..

[Mitchy moo]

I think bringing in Stroud and Johnson will help Schobel and Kelsay..

I think it makes the whole team better.

[Mahdi]

If this was fact then both Kelsay and Aaron should easily get to the qb with hardly any effort. Same goes for the colts' DE's .
My whole argument is based on talented DEs though. Kelsay is a worker. He has a high motor as we all know and he doesnt give up on plays. Very easy to game plan for and will not give you a variety of different pass rush moves. Im talking about bringing in a talented pure pass rusher that uses speed, power and creativity to pressure the QB not just out-working your opponent for 6 secs as Kelsay and Schobel were doing last year.

As I side note im not labeling Schobel as a strictly high motor guy like Kelsay but he had the same results last year.

[Mitchy moo]

My whole argument is based on talented DEs though. Kelsay is a worker. He has a high motor as we all know and he doesnt give up on plays. Very easy to game plan for and will not give you a variety of different pass rush moves. Im talking about bringing in a talented pure pass rusher that uses speed, power and creativity to pressure the QB not just out-working your opponent for 6 secs as Kelsay and Schobel were doing last year.

As I side note im not labeling Schobel as a strictly high motor guy like Kelsay but he had the same results last year.

I feel the same way, we need to pressure all opposing QB's in a big way. People attribute all of our early 90's success to just the offense alone but there we're many days that the D saved our bacon.

[Mahdi]

who says he would start? We have no true #1 CB who has the size or skills to cover a top WR in this league. At least we have servicable DEs. Im sick of hearing the cover 2 no need for a shutdown corner arguement. We were near dead last in passing yards against us, which makes this situation just as bad as our WR situation. Anybody heard of a coverage sack? Anybody remember when Moss scored 4 TDs in one half bc we dont have a cornerback that stands a chance covering him. Once again, somebody PLEASE explain what skill Harvey has that would make him a good pick. Is it really bc Harvey is that good of a player, or just bc we saw the Giants have success with good DEs on the Patriots so we should try to copy that by picking up the next available DE in the draft and hoping for the best.
So your gameplan is to rely on coverage sacks? I dont think theres a single Defensive coordinator in the NFL who goes into a game hoping for coverage sacks. The Giants didnt beat NE with coverage sacks and great CB play. They beat them by not giving Brady 4 secs per play to scan over the field.

Your analogy of Moss scoring 4 TDs against us only supports the argument for a DE like Harvey. If you remember Brady literally had 5 secs to throw everytime he dropped back to pass. Our CBs and safeties were covering for way too long and I dont care who your CBs and safeties are, if you're in coverage for that long yer going to get beat.


You may not like the "cover 2" argument but theres no denying it. Cover 2 teams DO NOT pay big money to corners and they DO NOT draft them high. Chicago, Tampa Bay, Indianapolis, none of those teams have a corner drafted in the first round. Only Marlon Jackson was drafted 28th or 29th a couple years ago but when he was drafted by Indi he was supposed to play safety. They converted him after his first season.


As for Harvey, he has many skills and talents and is the best all around DE in the draft. He can bull rush, he can speed rush, he has long arms, he uses pass rush moves to get around OTs and he is very solid against the run. In 18 starts he had 18.5 sacks thats more than a sack in a game average. If Harvey is available at our spot I bet there will be teams looking to trade up for him if we dont select him ourselves.

[Mitchy moo]

5 seconds?? That was our pressure play.


So your gameplan is to rely on coverage sacks? I dont think theres a single Defensive coordinator in the NFL who goes into a game hoping for coverage sacks. The Giants didnt beat NE with coverage sacks and great CB play. They beat them by not giving Brady 4 secs per play to scan over the field.

Your analogy of Moss scoring 4 TDs against us only supports the argument for a DE like Harvey. If you remember Brady literally had 5 secs to throw everytime he dropped back to pass. Our CBs and safeties were covering for way too long and I dont care who your CBs and safeties are, if you're in coverage for that long yer going to get beat.


You may not like the "cover 2" argument but theres no denying it. Cover 2 teams DO NOT pay big money to corners and they DO NOT draft them high. Chicago, Tampa Bay, Indianapolis, none of those teams have a corner drafted in the first round. Only Marlon Jackson was drafted 28th or 29th a couple years ago but when he was drafted by Indi he was supposed to play safety. They converted him after his first season.


As for Harvey, he has many skills and talents and is the best all around DE in the draft. He can bull rush, he can speed rush, he has long arms, he uses pass rush moves to get around OTs and he is very solid against the run. In 18 starts he had 18.5 sacks thats more than a sack in a game average. If Harvey is available at our spot I bet there will be teams looking to trade up for him if we dont select him ourselves.

[HHURRICANE]

The bar has been set in the AFC and we have to hold one goal most important, fielding a team that can compete and beat NE. Our off season has been spent acquiring players that made us more like the Giants (including acquiring a Giant player), so the goal is clear to me.

This is one of the main reasons I feel that we draft Harvey and move up into the late 1st round and pick a WR up. NE lost because their offense was pinched by the Giants pass rush, nothing less than obvious. We have pictures of Brady in pain and confused from that game, all thanks to the pass rush. The only way that the Bills can overtake NE and most other teams is to limit their access to run, pass and think. I am simplifying this but our team gave away too much defensively to win last season, that will no longer be the case.

Go Bills!!

I am so with you on this. You would have thought that some people on this board might have seen how New England got beat, almost twice, by the Giants and seen the solution.

The Giants have more than 2 good pass rushers on that team. The Bills do not have a defense that is even close to the Giants. Let's say that our FA pickups and a healthy Poz have a positive impact. Isn't Harvey going to make us more dominant?

What if Schobel is at the end of his career? Are we going to suffer another 6 sack season or are we going to let someone like Harvey help fill the void and hopefully be an excellent replacement in year 2 of his career.

I'll bet money that we will be looking for a starting DE in the draft next year if we don't take Harvey this year. STARTING!!

[Mahdi]

who says he would start? We have no true #1 CB who has the size or skills to cover a top WR in this league. At least we have servicable DEs. Im sick of hearing the cover 2 no need for a shutdown corner arguement. We were near dead last in passing yards against us, which makes this situation just as bad as our WR situation. Anybody heard of a coverage sack? Anybody remember when Moss scored 4 TDs in one half bc we dont have a cornerback that stands a chance covering him. Once again, somebody PLEASE explain what skill Harvey has that would make him a good pick. Is it really bc Harvey is that good of a player, or just bc we saw the Giants have success with good DEs on the Patriots so we should try to copy that by picking up the next available DE in the draft and hoping for the best.
To add....


A lot of ppl fail to realize the full value of a good DE. He not only helps your CBs but he also helps your LBs and safeties.

For example... When Kellen Winslow is running his pattern its either a LB or Whitner covering. How long can that match up last? not very long. So even if you have Champ Bailey and Deion Sanders locking up their WRs there are other match ups all over the field to consider. Its not only Moss, its Ben Watson too, he had 80 receptions last year.. is DRC going to cover both?

Also.. how many times did Brady throw to Faulk against us?? A good DE keeps Faulk in to block rather than sneaking out into the flat for an easy recepetion. So at the end of the day a good DE can take away 2 or even 3 passing options... a good CB can only cover 1 player and only for a very limited amount of time.. if that time elapses it will most likely result in a reception.

[HHURRICANE]

I have no doubt in my mind that the Giants were better that daybut if they had to play 3 games the Pats would've won it.

To beat the best team you have to stop them and score more points. So far we've done something about trying to stop them, we have done nothing to try and score more than them. Balance skoobs.
the giants had more points on the board

When you hold a team to 14 points you have a shot at winning every Sunday.

New Englands offense has been beating us, not their defense. Stopping Brady translates to wins against them.

Funny how the Bills dominated Dan Marino when other teams struggled. I think our pass rush had something to do with it. Marino admitted that we were the toughest team to play after his career ended and he said it was because of Bruce Smith.

[Mitchy moo]

When you hold a team to 14 points you have a shot at winning every Sunday.

New Englands offense has been beating us, not their defense. Stopping Brady translates to wins against them.

Funny how the Bills dominated Dan Marino when other teams struggled. I think our pass rush had something to do with it. Marino admitted that we were the toughest team to play after his career ended and he said it was because of Bruce Smith.


Dan still wakes up and sees Bruce.

[justasportsfan]

When you hold a team to 14 points you have a shot at winning every Sunday.

.
when you can't score more than 14 points , you have a problem too.

We dominated Marino because they couldn't stop our Offense. We dominated MArino because they insisted on living and dying with his arm without any running game. In other words, we dominated Marino because we had more weapons offensively. We wouldn't have been able to run the K-Gun without weapons for Kelly. Here's another fact, Trent is not Kelly. If you don't give him weapons, he'll never be half the qb Kelly was and you'll flipflopp on Trent and call him a bust next year.

It's feels weird that I'm the one calling for more weapons for Trent and yet I'm the Jp licker :huh:

Balance.

[justasportsfan]

Dan still wakes up and sees Bruce.
So why is it again that you want to bring in Ocho Cinco? He's not gonna stop Brady. You're obviously licking yourself if you think he can be had for a 2nd. Welker was traded for a 2nd.

What was Chambers traded for to the chargers? a 2nd.

[FlyingDutchman]

So your gameplan is to rely on coverage sacks? I dont think theres a single Defensive coordinator in the NFL who goes into a game hoping for coverage sacks. The Giants didnt beat NE with coverage sacks and great CB play. They beat them by not giving Brady 4 secs per play to scan over the field.

Your analogy of Moss scoring 4 TDs against us only supports the argument for a DE like Harvey. If you remember Brady literally had 5 secs to throw everytime he dropped back to pass. Our CBs and safeties were covering for way too long and I dont care who your CBs and safeties are, if you're in coverage for that long yer going to get beat.


You may not like the "cover 2" argument but theres no denying it. Cover 2 teams DO NOT pay big money to corners and they DO NOT draft them high. Chicago, Tampa Bay, Indianapolis, none of those teams have a corner drafted in the first round. Only Marlon Jackson was drafted 28th or 29th a couple years ago but when he was drafted by Indi he was supposed to play safety. They converted him after his first season.


As for Harvey, he has many skills and talents and is the best all around DE in the draft. He can bull rush, he can speed rush, he has long arms, he uses pass rush moves to get around OTs and he is very solid against the run. In 18 starts he had 18.5 sacks thats more than a sack in a game average. If Harvey is available at our spot I bet there will be teams looking to trade up for him if we dont select him ourselves.

First of all, where did it say my "game plan" was to rely on coverage sacks. All I was saying, it goes both ways. Good coverage gives the DL that extra second. So no kidding coaches dont game plan for coverage sacks, it just part of the game when you have a good secondary, which we do not.

Yes Brady had like 5 seconds to throw, bc we never freaking blitzed....why do you ask....? Cuz we dont not have a cornerback who is capable of covering someone for the 2 freaking seconds that it takes to blitz. When you have no confidence in your corners, why would you bring extra heat?

Also, the Moss arguement in no way is a push for a DE. Most of those times he scored were within the 20 yardline in which his size and ability just made the corners we have look foolish. Most times, Brady would take two steps and put it out there while our midget corners would watch Randy catch the ball, so unless Harvey has a rocket in his ass, he wont do much there.

Im not saying Harvey is a bad player. Im just sick of the people who saw the Giants have success bc they actually have good lineman, and think if we take the 3rd best DE on the board and hope for the best, we'll be able to beat them. Watch some of the tapes on Harvey, I didnt see many times where he was blowing by any lineman. Most of the times the QB was getting pressure from the other side and rolled right into him.....He just doesnt do it for me.

[Oaf]

Dan still wakes up and sees Bruce.

:limp:

[FlyingDutchman]

To add....


A lot of ppl fail to realize the full value of a good DE. He not only helps your CBs but he also helps your LBs and safeties.

For example... When Kellen Winslow is running his pattern its either a LB or Whitner covering. How long can that match up last? not very long. So even if you have Champ Bailey and Deion Sanders locking up their WRs there are other match ups all over the field to consider. Its not only Moss, its Ben Watson too, he had 80 receptions last year.. is DRC going to cover both?

Also.. how many times did Brady throw to Faulk against us?? A good DE keeps Faulk in to block rather than sneaking out into the flat for an easy recepetion. So at the end of the day a good DE can take away 2 or even 3 passing options... a good CB can only cover 1 player and only for a very limited amount of time.. if that time elapses it will most likely result in a reception.

Nobody fails to realize this. Did you even hear of Harvey before about 2 months ago? I just dont understand the people most of which have never seen him play, can be such advocates for this guy. Now to counter your DRC arguement that Im sure is coming. He is the only CB in "top 5" with his type of height and length. He runs a 4.3. He is one of the top, if not THEE top athlete in this draft. He was the MVP of the senior bowl. HE SCORED MORE TDS AS A CORNERBACK, THAN TDS THAT WERE SCORED ON HIM. He is also at a position where you can take raw talent and groom it. Most people who saw him play a lot this year say he is without a doubt the next Deon Sanders. As much as Deon antics I didnt care for, he was one of the best CBs of all time. If ya want to talk about his cousin Antonio, Antonio was not even a cornerback in college, he was just a hell of an athlete.

A good corner doesnt help your LBs and and DL? When you have the other teams top passing threat locked down, you dont think thats gonna change their game plan and help? You want to DRC to hold the other guys hands on D? You gotta just rely on them to do their job as well.

Somebody explain to me what makes Harvey so good that the benefits will be seen in our secondary

[Oaf]

Skoobs, I really like the scenario of drafting Harvey then Kelly, but hopefully Sweed at 25-30. But for me, there is just too many players I like in this draft, as well as too many needs to justify trading up unless we could trade down as well. Brandon Flowers, Mike Pollack, and Martelleus Bennett are players I want BAD but players we won't even have a shot at if we go DE @ 11 and trade up.

If we want Bennett, it'll have to be round 2. I don't want to leave WR till round 3, so that means either we get one at 11 or we trade down from 11 and get one; in either case, no Harvey. :(

If the Bills think we can draft Harvey at 11, get Sweed at 25, AND get a STARTING TE in round 4, let's @%$&#*& do it. :rockon: