DraftBoy's Draft Review

[shelby]

1. (11). Leodis McKelvin CB Troy
The Buffalo Bills were the first team to go cornerback in the 2008 NFL Draft, and they went with the speedy corner from Troy. Last year, the Bills ranked 30th in Pass Defense, and obviously felt that a large part of that was due to less then spectacular coverage. What the Bills got was a pure corner who excels in coverage. McKelvin has good size and great speed for a cornerback. Combine that with his instincts to make plays, and you’ve got yourself a good pick. What makes this interesting, however, is the change in direction of Buffalo in defensive philosophy from years past. If we looked at how Buffalo was successful in pass defense over the past few years, we saw they did it by having tough physical corners (Antoine Winfield, and Nate Clements) who weren’t afraid to make tackles and be physical. That is not McKelvin’s game; he is very much a finesse player, who would rather turn and run with a guy then bump him at the line. That’s not a knock on him, as much as it is just a difference in playing style. One thing that the Bills will want to see McKelvin work on is his ball skills. He can get his hands on tons of passes, but the problem is that he doesn’t intercept them. So while defended passes are a good thing, Buffalo will want him to create turnovers. Aside from McKelvin’s cornerback ability, he also is an incredible return man who has speed, vision, and acceleration to be a threat on every return. Buffalo is already very solid at the return game; what McKelvin does is provide them with a guy who can do both KR and PR, and provides them with the option to do a reverse on a return, or to give McGee a KR off to rest. Overall, I had McKelvin as the #2 CB on my board behind Dominique Rodgers-Croamartie, and while I liked DRC better because of his size and speed, McKelvin plays an extremely similar game, and has a return element that DRC does not. The jump will be a big one for McKelvin into the NFL, but he should be a starter for the Bills.
Grade: B+

2 (41). James Hardy WR Indiana
In the second round, Buffalo knew it had to get some weapons for Trent Edwards to work with besides just Lee Evans. Ideally, that weapon would be tall, athletic, and draw attention. Enter 6’5 James Hardy, who runs the 40 in 4.51 seconds. Hardy has great athleticism and size for a WR, and really has a good solid frame to be a #1 WR in this league. Hardy has a knack for making the big acrobatic catch when needed, and was relied on heavily at Indiana, as he was their only real option. What Hardy brings to the Bills is a consistent weapon who has unlimited potential. However, don’t expect for Hardy to come in from Day 1 and be a dominant WR. He is still very raw, and needs to really refine his game. Also, the scouting report on Hardy says that if you can get in his face and be physical with him, he will struggle. Another thing Hardy must work on is a focus; at Indiana when he wasn’t getting the ball or the offense was struggling, he would get lazy and not run crisp routes. In college, his athletic ability made up for that, but in the pros, a lazy slant route will get the QB picked off, and he must be at his best at all times. Overall, James Hardy is exactly what Buffalo needed out of this draft WR wise. He’s a big target, who will work the whole field, and can go deep if needed. He has good speed, and the ability get the ball at its highest point. The character concerns that existed with Hardy prior to the draft seem to be alleviated, and Hardy has since matured.
Grade: A

3 (72). Chris Ellis DE Virginia Tech
Another reason for Buffalo’s poor pass defense this past season was a real lack of any kind of a pass rush. Anytime you have pro bowl DE Aaron Schobel held to only 6.5 sacks, you know your pass rush really suffered. So in Round 3, Buffalo decided to try and upgrade their pass rush by adding the athletic VT defensive end, Chris Ellis. Ellis is a high motor player with above average athleticism, who gets to the QB and wreaks havoc in the backfield, and was extremely productive in college. Ellis finished his college career with 22 sacks and 35.5 Tackles for loss. So the evidence is quite clear that Ellis was a good DE at Virginia Tech, but a problem still exists. Buffalo already has two defensive ends on the roster who are good pass rushers in Aaron Schobel and Chris Kelsay, and last year neither player end was extremely effective against the run. Ellis does not excel against the run, and there are concerns about how much of his production was based on athleticism, and how much was based on skills. Ellis must learn to develop some pass rush moves to get past NFL caliber OT’s, who will be able to neutralize his athleticism. He also needs to get stronger at the point of attack, and play with better leverage. Overall, Ellis should be a good situational pass rusher who could be a spot starter.
Grade: B-
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More.... (http://www.billszone.com/mtlog/archives/2008/04/28/draftboys_draft_review.php)

[John Doe]

4 (132). Derek Fine TE Kansas
Buffalo had a glaring need for an athletic pass catching TE, and after the 132nd pick of the 2008 NFL Draft, the Buffalo Bills still have a glaring need for an athletic pass catching TE. Fine is an adequate pass catching TE, but he is not very athletic, and he’s not very good. Fine is an older player, having played 5 years of college ball, and was semi productive in a good Kansas offense this past season. His best game came against FIU, and in big time games he was basically non-existent. Fine needs to work on route running, athleticism, and blocking just to see the field next season. I don’t understand this pick from the Bills' perspective, and with players like Joey Haynos and Kellen Davis still on the board, I don’t see why they reach for Fine here. Whatever their reason, they now have added another TE who many would consider to be mediocre.


Fine does not have great straight-line speed, but he seems plenty athletic from his other measurables:


"Following his last game at Kansas, which happened to be the Jayhawks’ Orange Bowl win over Virginia Tech in January, Fine traveled to Indianapolis in February to participate at the NFL’s scouting combine. There, Fine was first in the three-cone drill, second in the 20-yard shuttle, third in the 60-yard shuttle and tied for third in the bench press."

http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2008/04/28/sports/sports02.txt

Fine was "semi-productive" last year?

46 catches for 396 yards and 4 TDs is not too shabby for a college tight end.

You may think that he is "not very good" but you will find a strong argument with Bills scout Brad Forsyth:



“Of the tight ends I did this year, he was the most complete tight end,” said Bills’ scout Brad Forsyth in a statement posted on the team’s official Web site. “He’s not a flashy guy, but he does everything very well. He’s an excellent blocker in the run game. He has a great feel for the zone blocking scheme there. He plays with leverage.


http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2008/04/28/sports/sports02.txt

Plus, his leadership intangables are second to none of the other tight ends.

[justasportsfan]

was the Steve JOhnson pick an A- minus because of where he was drafted ?

[DraftBoy]

Fine does not have great straight-line speed, but he seems plenty athletic from his other measurables:



http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2008/04/28/sports/sports02.txt

Fine was "semi-productive" last year?

46 catches for 396 yards and 4 TDs is not too shabby for a college tight end.

You may think that he is "not very good" but you will find a strong argument with Bills scout Brad Forsyth:



http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2008/04/28/sports/sports02.txt


Fine is not very athletic and straight line speed is not the only attribute into that category especially for a TE. Even then he a ran 4.83 40, which isnt very good speed wise.

Not too shabby but its not blow you away numbers either. Fine was the 4th leading receiver on his team. The Kansas offense produced 6296 total yards this year and 66 TD's of that Fine was responsible for 6.2% and 6.1% of the TD's. In the passing game alone he was responsible for 10.5% of the yards, and 11.1% of the TD's. Im sorry thats not being very productive, if you're not even a tenth of your teams total offensive output.

As for what Brad Forsyth says, I strongly disagree. Fine is far from a complete TE, he is a bad blocker and I really question his evaluation in regards to Derek Fine. I understand him defending the pick but I dont think his evaluation is accurate. Am I claiming to know more than an NFL scout? Certainly not, but I think on this one that they got it wrong, simple as that.

[DraftBoy]

was the Steve JOhnson pick an A- minus because of where he was drafted ?

Production + Potential + Draft Position

[The Spaz]

Nice opinion piece.

[DraftBoy]

Nice opinion piece.

As every original article is on this site.

[Marvelous]

Didn't Fine finish TOP-3 in THREE agility drills in the scouting combine in Indianapolis? I read that last night while checking out TwoBillsdrive.com.. I am gonna re-watch the combine. Yeah i DVRed it :couch:
-- I was hoping Draftboy noticed that before he wrote his review/grades.. Ot atleast took it into consideration...
Thanks for the work D-boy..

[John Doe]

Fine is not very athletic and straight line speed is not the only attribute into that category especially for a TE. Even then he a ran 4.83 40, which isnt very good speed wise.

Not too shabby but its not blow you away numbers either. Fine was the 4th leading receiver on his team. The Kansas offense produced 6296 total yards this year and 66 TD's of that Fine was responsible for 6.2% and 6.1% of the TD's. In the passing game alone he was responsible for 10.5% of the yards, and 11.1% of the TD's. Im sorry thats not being very productive, if you're not even a tenth of your teams total offensive output.

As for what Brad Forsyth says, I strongly disagree. Fine is far from a complete TE, he is a bad blocker and I really question his evaluation in regards to Derek Fine. I understand him defending the pick but I dont think his evaluation is accurate. Am I claiming to know more than an NFL scout? Certainly not, but I think on this one that they got it wrong, simple as that.

You did nothing to address his outstanding showing at the combine outside of his straight-line speed. Give us some more reasons as to why he is not very athletic.

I can understand you reasoning about his productivity, but 46 catches for a college tight end is pretty good no matter what the offense racks up.

As far as Forsyth's analysis is concerned, maybe he got it right. It is entirely possible.

[DraftBoy]

Didn't Fine finish TOP-3 in THREE agility drills in the scouting combine in Indianapolis? I read that last night while checking out TwoBillsdrive.com.. I am gonna re-watch the combine. Yeah i DVRed it :couch:
-- I was hoping Draftboy noticed that before he wrote his review/grades.. Ot atleast took it into consideration...
Thanks for the work D-boy..

Dont have the results in front of me, but Ill check out my DVD of the combine when I get home from work. Still wont change the assessment. Simple straight line speed, agility tests do not always translate to on the field play. Fine has not exhibited that in my opinion.

[DraftBoy]

You did nothing to address his outstanding showing at the combine outside of his straight-line speed. Give us some more reasons as to why he is not very athletic.

I can understand you reasoning about his productivity, but 46 catches for a college tight end is pretty good no matter what the offense racks up.

As far as Forsyth's analysis is concerned, maybe he got it right. It is entirely possible.

The combine is the combine, there is a reason why some GM's say that we should get rid of it and many people talk on and on about how overrated it is. I dont use that as a major grading tool, its good to use a measuring stick, but games tell me a lot more.

His production numbers aren't impressive to me, its as simple as that for my analysis. He was in an ideal system to put up huge numbers and was unable to.

Of course he could be right and neither of us could be. Its a 50/50 shot at this point.

[John Doe]

The combine is the combine, there is a reason why some GM's say that we should get rid of it and many people talk on and on about how overrated it is. I dont use that as a major grading tool, its good to use a measuring stick, but games tell me a lot more.

His production numbers aren't impressive to me, its as simple as that for my analysis. He was in an ideal system to put up huge numbers and was unable to.

Of course he could be right and neither of us could be. Its a 50/50 shot at this point.

You still have not offered anything to substantiate your claim that Fine is a poor athlete outside of his straight line speed.

And, sometimes it is not easy to put up big numbers when everyone else around you is doing just that.

[Marvelous]

Draftboy. the combine may be overrated but is a fact that you can see the kids do drills without the pads. Now that kills some rookies value like Dan Connor because he has that Zach Thomas holming becon, & the combine makes him look very mediocre, but it also does show how fastthe kid can turn...
---Re-watch it bro & see if you notice anything to maybe change the grade some. ---I'm surprised you didn't onclude that into your evaluations bro... What do you use for your evaluations that differ from what the average diehard fan like myslef uses(no sarcasm)?


You still have not offered anything to substantiate your claim that Fine is a poor athlete outside of his straight line speed.
--I was shocked at his claim to Fine's lack of agility because it's teh oposite of what was said about him.. Maybe they we're wrong though.

[Elminster]

I agree with you DB, Good analysis. I was extremely disappointed by our apparent disregard for offensive line depth. When I'm worried about the chaos that will ensue should Fowler get hurt, you know the depth is less than reassuring. God forbid we lose one of our good linemen....or Peters. We'd be screwed.

[PECKERWOOD]

Wow, I'm really surprised, DB. You wanted us to take DRC over McKelvin? *gasps*

[Mike13]

I'm suprised Dallas didnt snatch up Hardy, he's quite the steal for you guys

[justasportsfan]

:movie:

[Marvelous]

Wow, I'm really surprised, DB. You wanted us to take DRC over McKelvin? *gasps*
-Me too... I was praying we didn't take the hype machine. Let someone else deal with the let-down lol...

[DraftBoy]

You still have not offered anything to substantiate your claim that Fine is a poor athlete outside of his straight line speed.

And, sometimes it is not easy to put up big numbers when everyone else around you is doing just that.

Yes I have, I have said that he does not exhibit the straight line speed or agility he showed at the combine in the games he played in. I encourage you to back and watch Kansas v. Virginia Tech or Kansas v. Missouri. These game tapes tell a heck of a lot more then some combine tests do. Fine is not a good athlete, he's nowhere near the same class as a Martellus Bennett, Fred Davis, or Martin Rucker. That's not to even begin to mention raw products like Kellen Davis, Brad Cottam or Jermicheal Finley. And Im sure some of them tested lower than Fine at the combine and Im sure you'll mention that but again the game film doesnt lie.

Disagree with me all you want, but the combine is not something to pin your evaluation of a player too.

As for his numbers, if you get open in a pass happy offense you'll get the ball, outside of Marcus Henry can you name the other two players who finished ahead of Fine in receiving yards this year, without having to look it up? This team possessed no stars to have the ball forced to.

[DraftBoy]

Draftboy. the combine may be overrated but is a fact that you can see the kids do drills without the pads. Now that kills some rookies value like Dan Connor because he has that Zach Thomas holming becon, & the combine makes him look very mediocre, but it also does show how fastthe kid can turn...
---Re-watch it bro & see if you notice anything to maybe change the grade some. ---I'm surprised you didn't onclude that into your evaluations bro... What do you use for your evaluations that differ from what the average diehard fan like myslef uses(no sarcasm)?


--I was shocked at his claim to Fine's lack of agility because it's teh oposite of what was said about him.. Maybe they we're wrong though.

Dan Connor's value was unfairly killed you will see I had him still as a Round 1 guy to San Diego in my final mock.

I mainly use game film, I watch on average 10-12 games a Saturday depending on what channels I get, I download what I can off torrents and try and watch another 15 or so during the week and read the papers on the games I miss.

Also I did not say Fine lacked agility, I said he lacked athleticism.

[TigerJ]

I wish Marv Levy were still with the team. I want to hear him call our new TE a "fine young man" just once.

[justasportsfan]

I mainly use game film, Forsyth doesn't?


I watch on average 10-12 games a Saturday depending on what channels I get, I download what I can off torrents and try and watch another 15 or so during the week and read the papers on the games I miss. I'm sure our scouting department has more resources other than TV games.

[DraftBoy]

Forsyth doesn't?

I'm sure our scouting department has more resources other than TV games.

Did I say that? I was asked what I do over the average fan. I have repeatedly said that I am no expert and that I dont know more than the Bills FO. That does not mean however that every pick they make is right and every one I disagree with is automatically wrong either. He'll get his and Ill get mine.

They better or else we are in more trouble then even I thought we were. Op may actually be right....gulp!

[justasportsfan]

Did I say that? I was asked what I do over the average fan. I have repeatedly said that I am no expert and that I dont know more than the Bills FO. That does not mean however that every pick they make is right and every one I disagree with is automatically wrong either. He'll get his and Ill get mine.


I'm not questioning your knowledge on the draft because heaven knows I don't watch college football. But you are however questioning a scouts assessment of a player who has more sources than you do.

[shelby]

What y'all need to keep in mind is the fact that these are DB's opinions of the draft. If he disagrees with a pro scout, so be it; no need to berate him for it. You don't have to agree with him, but please give his opinions the respect they deserve.

He's put a lot of work into covering the draft for the Zone, and i, for one, appreciate it.

Whether he's right about Fine or not remains to be seen.

[John Doe]

Yes I have, I have said that he does not exhibit the straight line speed or agility he showed at the combine in the games he played in. I encourage you to back and watch Kansas v. Virginia Tech or Kansas v. Missouri. These game tapes tell a heck of a lot more then some combine tests do. Fine is not a good athlete, he's nowhere near the same class as a Martellus Bennett, Fred Davis, or Martin Rucker. That's not to even begin to mention raw products like Kellen Davis, Brad Cottam or Jermicheal Finley. And Im sure some of them tested lower than Fine at the combine and Im sure you'll mention that but again the game film doesnt lie.

Disagree with me all you want, but the combine is not something to pin your evaluation of a player too.

As for his numbers, if you get open in a pass happy offense you'll get the ball, outside of Marcus Henry can you name the other two players who finished ahead of Fine in receiving yards this year, without having to look it up? This team possessed no stars to have the ball forced to.

You have finally offered something about Fine's athletic ability - you opinion that he is not athletic based on two specific game tapes. That is certainly more substantive than simply saying that he is not athletic. It is your opinion against that of the combine tests and the opinion of the scouts. I am not saying that the combine is the end all of evaluating a player, but if it counted for nothing then it would not exist. Every team is represented in force at the combine. It is meant to measure athleticism, and if Fine were not athletic then he would not have fared well on the tests. You can opine that his athleticism does not translate to the football field, but you cannot totally discount Fine's measurables in an evaluation of his athletic ability.

I still fail to see the argument that the guy is a poor player because he did not put up bigger numbers in a wide open offense. "If you get open in a pass happy offense you'll get the ball" is all well and good, but in an offense that put up big numbers, there must have been a lot of people getting open. I don't think that Fine was the number 1 target in that offense. I don't know of any college offenses that are built around the philosopy of "pass to the the tight end first." The offense did not appear to suffer because he did not catch more passes. I don't care who the other players on the team are, big names or not - that means nothing. The fact remains that they got open a lot based on the numbers that you are quoting. If you think that the team had to force passes to those other players because Fine was not getting open I would call that a real streach.

[justasportsfan]

What y'all need to keep in mind is the fact that these are DB's opinions of the draft. If he disagrees with a pro scout, so be it; no need to berate him for it. You don't have to agree with him, but please give his opinions the respect they deserve.

He's put a lot of work into covering the draft for the Zone, and i, for one, appreciate it.

Whether he's right about Fine or not remains to be seen.
we're dissussing his opinion. I haven't read any post berating him . You posted his article here in the forum where opinions will be made about an opinion. , he has to take both the good and bad opinions regarding his opinion. It's your @#@$@@% fault . :snicker:


I happen to think it's a good article but obviously some people might think there are some flaws. It's a normal thing.

[shelby]

i understand, and i agree...i'm just a bit protective of the kid, he's busted his ass the past few months to get this stuff done for us.

[justasportsfan]

i understand, and i agree...i'm just a bit protective of the kid, he's busted his ass the past few months to get this stuff done for us.


He's done a great job. The best I've seen compared to any other MB.:up: If you're protective then you shouldn't have left him out where people can get to him.

NO one is busting his draft guide. But his review is fair game as anyones.

[shelby]

Indeed.

[jmb1099]

You put a lot of work into this Draftboy, thank you!
I liked our draft more than you did, but I suppose only time will tell.

[DraftBoy]

I'm not questioning your knowledge on the draft because heaven knows I don't watch college football. But you are however questioning a scouts assessment of a player who has more sources than you do.

Yes I am and I will stand by my comments. If Im wrong, Im sure Ill be called out about it and Ill eat my crow with pride. I have never once backed off of something Ive said or not owned up to it. There is no doubt that scouts have more sources then I do, but I do want to take you back two years to how I sat here and railed away about how we should take Marques Colston, I said as high as Round 5. 252 picks passed by before he was taken, a ton of scouts missed on that one, I didnt. Some days Im right on the money, some days Im not. That's the reason Im not an NFL scout....yet...

[clumping platelets]

I did not like picks in rd 4-6.........I felt better players were available

We really do not need anymore 5-9 CBs :mad:

[Confused]

-Me too... I was praying we didn't take the hype machine. Let someone else deal with the let-down lol...
I also never knew DB didnt think Hardy was a "plug-in starter." thank for clearing it up.

[casdhf]

Can I volunteer to edit? :ill:

[DraftBoy]

You have finally offered something about Fine's athletic ability - you opinion that he is not athletic based on two specific game tapes. That is certainly more substantive than simply saying that he is not athletic. It is your opinion against that of the combine tests and the opinion of the scouts. I am not saying that the combine is the end all of evaluating a player, but if it counted for nothing then it would not exist. Every team is represented in force at the combine. It is meant to measure athleticism, and if Fine were not athletic then he would not have fared well on the tests. You can opine that his athleticism does not translate to the football field, but you cannot totally discount Fine's measurables in an evaluation of his athletic ability.

I still fail to see the argument that the guy is a poor player because he did not put up bigger numbers in a wide open offense. "If you get open in a pass happy offense you'll get the ball" is all well and good, but in an offense that put up big numbers, there must have been a lot of people getting open. I don't think that Fine was the number 1 target in that offense. I don't know of any college offenses that are built around the philosopy of "pass to the the tight end first." The offense did not appear to suffer because he did not catch more passes. I don't care who the other players on the team are, big names or not - that means nothing. The fact remains that they got open a lot based on the numbers that you are quoting. If you think that the team had to force passes to those other players because Fine was not getting open I would call that a real streach.


It was not just based on two game tapes thats just two examples of his lack of athletic ability.


See now your just jumping to assumptions about how the offense works and trying to infer things out of my words that I did not necessarily say. He obviously got open since he had semi good production but it was nothing to write home about in my opinion.

[DraftBoy]

we're dissussing his opinion. I haven't read any post berating him . You posted his article here in the forum where opinions will be made about an opinion. , he has to take both the good and bad opinions regarding his opinion. It's your @#@$@@% fault . :snicker:


I happen to think it's a good article but obviously some people might think there are some flaws. It's a normal thing.

You're fine, Im good to defend any disagreements.

[DraftBoy]

Can I volunteer to edit? :ill:

Ask an admin

[DraftBoy]

I did not like picks in rd 4-6.........I felt better players were available

We really do not need anymore 5-9 CBs :mad:


I agree with you.

[YardRat]

I'm surprised at the length of the article. I figured it would just be "We didn't draft DRC. It sucks. Period."

[DraftBoy]

I'm surprised at the length of the article. I figured it would just be "We didn't draft DRC. It sucks. Period."

I had that originally

[YardRat]

Nice job expanding on the premise, then. I'm impressed.

[BuffaloBillsStampede]

I dont know if anyone pointed this out because I didnt read the whole post, but I ahve read a few draft reviews that say kind of the opposite about Leodis. I honestly haven't seen the guy play a down of football, but from what I have read he is very willing and physical in run support. I haven't seen anywhere but from you that he isn't physical.

[John Doe]

It was not just based on two game tapes thats just two examples of his lack of athletic ability.

Actually, you did not cite specific instances where he demonstrated a lack of athletic ability - you merely referred me to the tapes of 2 games.

I am just finding it hard to believe that, given a professional scout rating him as the best all around tight end that he scouted and his outstanding performance at the combine, that Fine stunk at every phase of the game in your opinion and was totally non-athletic in all of the plays that you saw him participate in.



See now your just jumping to assumptions about how the offense works and trying to infer things out of my words that I did not necessarily say. He obviously got open since he had semi good production but it was nothing to write home about in my opinion.

I think that you are doing the same thing as you are accusing me of doing. You are inferring that you know how his offense worked and that he was underperforming in it - "semi-good" production beng nothing to write home about.

Plus, you did not address the guy's intelligence and intangables at all. I suppose that if you think that he can't block or catch effectively then that phase of the player is a moot point, but there was some reason why he was team captain for 2 years. You have totally discounted Fine's measurables at the combine and his non-measurables as well.

The following quote implys that he took a different role in the team's offense last season. It also gives some insight into what the coaches and scouts saw in him. The previous year, he had fewer receptions (28) but had 355 yards and was not used primarily as a posession reciever.



“My guess is the team at Kansas is made up of a lot of guys like Derek Fine,” said Buffalo Bills tight ends coach Charlie Coiner, who gushed about his new player Sunday. “Guys that are tough guys, guys that are versatile, guys that are smart and, in the end, guys that are football players.”
Those intangibles were enough to make Fine one of the true success stories of the draft. A 6-foot-3, 250-pounder, Fine took on a slightly altered role for his senior season and caught 46 passes for 394 yards and four touchdowns.
Meanwhile, he maintained his strong reputation as a blocker, and it paid off when Buffalo went for him because of his versatility. Bills personnel said Sunday they expect Fine to play a traditional tight-end role for them.


http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2008/apr/28/three_more_jayhawks_drafted/?sports

[DraftBoy]

I dont know if anyone pointed this out because I didnt read the whole post, but I ahve read a few draft reviews that say kind of the opposite about Leodis. I honestly haven't seen the guy play a down of football, but from what I have read he is very willing and physical in run support. I haven't seen anywhere but from you that he isn't physical.

Check out the Lindy's and Sporting News Draft Guide both talk about his poor tackling technique and even they disagree a little bit about how he plays the run.

Weaknesses:
Relatively marginal instincts and anticipation...He doesn't have a lot of experience bumping at the line...Could do a better job in zone coverage...Too aggressive and plays a little out of control at times...Did not always play against elite competition.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/cb/leodismckelvin.html

3. Leodis McKelvin - Troy 5-11/190

Leodis is very explosive and will be a dual threat as a return man but his physical play and ability to stuff the run is his most impressive attribute. I will have to wait and see if he can cover NFL receivers, he has the quicks but I will wait and see none the less.

http://nfldraftguys.com/rankings/08_Draft_CB_Rankings_Baca.php

Lots of differing opinion on his physical play. Personally I didnt see it in his games at Troy.

[DraftBoy]

Actually, you did not cite specific instances where he demonstrated a lack of athletic ability - you merely referred me to the tapes of 2 games.

I am just finding it hard to believe that, given a professional scout rating him as the best all around tight end that he scouted and his outstanding performance at the combine, that Fine stunk at every phase of the game in your opinion and was totally non-athletic in all of the plays that you saw him participate in.



I think that you are doing the same thing as you are accusing me of doing. You are inferring that you know how his offense worked and that he was underperforming in it - "semi-good" production beng nothing to write home about.

Plus, you did not address the guy's intelligence and intangables at all. I suppose that if you think that he can't block or catch effectively then that phase of the player is a moot point, but there was some reason why he was team captain for 2 years. You have totally discounted Fine's measurables at the combine and his non-measurables as well.

The following quote implys that he took a different role in the team's offense last season. It also gives some insight into what the coaches and scouts saw in him. The previous year, he had fewer receptions (28) but had 355 yards and was not used primarily as a posession reciever.



http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2008/apr/28/three_more_jayhawks_drafted/?sports

1.
Dont have the results in front of me, but Ill check out my DVD of the combine when I get home from work. Still wont change the assessment. Simple straight line speed, agility tests do not always translate to on the field play. Fine has not exhibited that in my opinion.
Post #10

No Im pretty aware of how the Kansas offense worked I saw nearly every game they played this season.

I didnt address his intangibles because they were not as noted on the field, I could of said he was an honor roll student in HS too but I didnt, I could of said his parents are still married but I didnt. He was not a vocal leader on the field. Did Kansas necessarily need that? Dont know but its not something he showed on the field and Im not going to put down he's got great leadership if I can't see it. Just because he was team captain does not mean he was a great leader. On my HS team the team captain all three years was our backup QB not because he was a good leader but because he was closest to the coach. Unless I see it, its not going into anything I write.

Im glad Coach Joiner feels that way, I really expected him to say he was a bad pick and waste.

Good discussion so far, keep it coming.

[John Doe]

1.
No Im pretty aware of how the Kansas offense worked I saw nearly every game they played this season.


Well, what was Fine's role? You obviously feel that he played exteremely poor in whatever he was asked to do - explain why. Did he drop a lot of passes? Wiff on most of his blocking assingments?

What about the previous season?


1.
I didnt address his intangibles because they were not as noted on the field, I could of said he was an honor roll student in HS too but I didnt, I could of said his parents are still married but I didnt. He was not a vocal leader on the field. Did Kansas necessarily need that? Dont know but its not something he showed on the field and Im not going to put down he's got great leadership if I can't see it. Just because he was team captain does not mean he was a great leader. On my HS team the team captain all three years was our backup QB not because he was a good leader but because he was closest to the coach. Unless I see it, its not going into anything I write.


Leaders usually don't lead by being a loudmouth - you have to back it up with a work ethic and good performance. Being elected team captain on a college team is an honor - I don't think that your highschool experience is a very good comparison. Do you really believe that captains on college teams are chosen because the are "closest to the coach?" It does not help the credibility of your analysis.



“The thing that just really stands out about Derek is that he was a natural leader,” said Joe Hogan, a quarterback who was Fine’s teammate at Sallisaw and also signed to play at Kansas before transferring to Northeastern State University in Tahlequah, Okla. “He’s always kept people in line and he’s kept everybody striving for the same goal. He always wanted to be the best in whatever we were doing. He gets the best out of people.


http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2008/04/28/sports/sports02.txt

Sounds like he fits the general "high character" mold of the team. What about those other tight ends that were available at that pick? How did they rate with the intangables?

[mysticsoto]

I'm not questioning your knowledge on the draft because heaven knows I don't watch college football. But you are however questioning a scouts assessment of a player who has more sources than you do.

Scouts hit and miss too, Justa. Just think...some scout out there recommended we take Ah You last year...hell, some scout (along with TD) probably recommended we take Mike "tub of lard" Williams...

[Michael82]

Wow, I'm really surprised, DB. You wanted us to take DRC over McKelvin? *gasps*
:rofl:

[Michael82]

I dont know if anyone pointed this out because I didnt read the whole post, but I ahve read a few draft reviews that say kind of the opposite about Leodis. I honestly haven't seen the guy play a down of football, but from what I have read he is very willing and physical in run support. I haven't seen anywhere but from you that he isn't physical.
I was wondering the same thing. I've read quite a few draft guides online and at the store and they said McKelvin was really good at the run and a hard tackler. A lot of what ESPN said was that he seemed to be like a Antoine Winfield type CB.

[colin]

db,

solid work dude, good read.

i think you have a strong point wrt Fine and his production -- he was a farily small role player with the numbers they put up.

i do think you are missing on your athleticsm bit tho. the combine really is a football track meet and he did kick but there. if anything he might not have the size or body type (arm length, hand size, etc.) if he has a physical failing, but he is clearly a very good athlete.

[madness]

-Me too... I was praying we didn't take the hype machine. Let someone else deal with the let-down lol...

I think I was just as happy when the other "one year wonder" Thomas came off the board.

Good read DB, thanks.

[justasportsfan]

Scouts hit and miss too, Justa. Just think...some scout out there recommended we take Ah You last year...hell, some scout (along with TD) probably recommended we take Mike "tub of lard" Williams...
I know that. I know GM's hit and miss. So do mb posters.